Barbara Kingsolver Thinks Urban Liberals Have It All Wrong on Appalachia
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- When Barbara Kingsolver set out to write her latest novel, “Demon Copperhead (www.harpercollins.com/product...) ,” she was already considered one of the most accomplished writers of our time. She had won awards including the Women’s Prize for Fiction and a National Humanities Medal, and had a track record of best-selling books, including “The Poisonwood Bible (www.harpercollins.com/product...) ” and “Unsheltered (www.harpercollins.com/product...) .” But she felt there was one giant stone left unturned: to write “the great Appalachian novel.”
Kingsolver grew up in rural Kentucky and lives in southwestern Virginia. Appalachia is her home. So when national coverage of her region started increasing in the years since 2016, with a focus on the region’s problems - like deep rural poverty and the opioid epidemic - she felt something was missing. She wanted to write a novel about Appalachia from the inside, as someone who is a part of it and who grew up in it. “The story I wanted to tell was not about the big guys, but about the little people,” she told me.
And if major awards are any indication, Kingsolver succeeded. “Demon Copperhead” won the 2023 Pulitzer Prize for Fiction and has been widely acclaimed for the nuanced portrait it paints of life in rural America. So I asked Kingsolver to talk about her background and the book, and to explore the often chasmic dissonance between how many of us city-dwellers think about Appalachia and the reality of living there.
Mentioned:
Shiloh and Other Stories (www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...) by Bobbie Ann Mason
Book Recommendations:
Landings (arwendonahue.com/landings/) by Arwen Donahue
Raising Lazarus (www.hachettebookgroup.com/tit...) by Beth Macy
Pod (www.simonandschuster.com/book...) by Laline Paull
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast (www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-k...) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-... (www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-...) .
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. Our senior editor is Rogé Karma. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu, Jeff Geld, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
So glad to hear folks talking about the urban/rural divide. It is very real. I live in small town Missouri. I had a family farm raising meat chickens, hogs and vegetables for the local farmers market and economy. I came into farming without any debt and still couldn’t make it profitable. Competing with places like Walmart and the idea that somehow locally raised food should be cheap, it’s very difficult. It was also very frustrating watching big farms with hundreds of acres, get subsidized for raising corn/soy when there wasn’t a dollar for our farm even though we were producing high-quality food without antibiotics, pesticides, or herbicides.
I hear you. Continue to have courage and integrity. This means a lot more than you know.👍 💗✌️
It's maddening, isn't it? It's just illogical and bass-ackward. Your enterprise adds more value to your community and local economy in 100 different ways.
Definitely find political ally, or cultivate them. It's difficult but that's what needs to be done. It would help to not have the Supreme Court allowing the corporate citizen doctrine. You may be a Republican, so that's on you then, however, their are many small farm Democrats that can be an ally. It's bipartisan.
So true!!!! Subsidies for Big Food.....really???? they have better lobbyists....right?
They want our food filled with antibiotics and pesticides - keeps us sick and keeps big pharma with a constant supply of sick people.
Thank you for an inspiring interview. two quotes to remember, "addiction is not a failure of virtue" and "incarceration does not cure addiction any more than it cures cancer".
There are city dwellers living well.. but so many who are city-poor, with no land, greedy corporate landlords, unemployed and stuck. City-poor means all self sufficient has all been ripped off and replaced with endless social service battles and no life.
I grew up in the Appalachian Mtns of VA and can relate to everything here. Especially the part about small family farms which aren't helped at all by the farm subsidies. Matter of fact, we subsidized the cattle we sold (for beef) during the Trump presidency because we spent more on their upkeep than we got back. I have a MS in Geology, have traveled a lot, and returned to my birth place for my retirement. I am a liberal, but I get along with the conservatives in my area because we depend on each other, we are so far from towns. We can discuss politics, but always say 'I love you' when we part.
Nice!
Beautifully shared.
Yes! And yet we hill folk are called ignorant and closed minded. Hmm…
There are ignorant buffoons everywhere, cities and rural places alike. There are well educated and also highly intelligent and amazingly skilled people in all locations. Some of us move around , and can't be pigeonholed. I've lived in farm country in Maryland, and New York City. Dumb bigots and very smart people alike both places, lol.
@@saracash1860 That's OK. We know better.
If you’re listening to this, and you don’t know the gorgeous poems and lyrical essays of Wendall Berry, please change that today! 💖
I was thinking the same thing. ❤️
Who or what is buying up all of the rural farms in the u.s.? there seems to be a calculated effort to destroy rural culture. As an educated working class person, I just see a very snobby selfish class society here in the u.s. Where corporate farms exist for miles and miles, rural people do go hungry.
Corporations anticipating world wide food shortages. In AZ they buy land, drill deep wells, pump water to grow alfalfa which is exported overseas. Regular people lose their water and incidentally their houses/savings.
My maternal grandfather was a farmer. He fed his neighbors during the Great Depression. Rural farmers in the 50's helped another farmer who was ill by helping him plow and seed his field and/or harvesting it. I understand that now a farmer must own much more land than my grandfather owned to make a living as a farmer.
Yes, "Destroying Rural Culture" is Chapter 5 of the "Liberal Control of Every Part of Your Life Manifesto". Fortunately, farming is a difficult way to live and fraught with risk. Therefore, it has been easy for us to get corporations to pay farmers for their land and then pay rural people to work them. Unfortunately for us, we have not calculated how to wrest the lifestyle from the corporations, for they have gotten into bed with the Republican Party.
in my area they are buying land for a few reasons, to illegally grow pot, to subdivide into much smaller parcels and sell, and to just hold on to for an investment requiring little involvement. They don't want the land until they want it. And they want it cheap. Makes no sense as there is plenty of land in other places where people want to live, they just don't want to work for it. I worked in the city and I worked very hard, but you can't keep up that pace when you get to be over forty and nowadays the digital nomads will just swoop in and take your job. Things have certainly changed, the computer revolution is not over for a long time. I am interested in reading this book but you know living in the country you have to watch your spending. 😉
Corporate farms are adding to the chronic illnesses & the obesity epidemic due to the modifications, pesticides etc. Deplorable!
how lovely that the author is so grounded, that her gift of storytelling and keen observation can be communicated in such a visceral, human way
This comment is not mine but I agree with it. ~ When Trump won in 2016, there was a lot of soul searching on the left, and coastal liberals bought books like Hillbilly Elegy and White Trash to try to understand rural America better. I see no corresponding effort among rural America to understand urban America better. Urbanites are really tired of hearing that rural America is "forgotten". In an evenly split Senate, Senate Democrats represent over 40 million more people than Senate Republicans do. Democratic presidential candidates have won the popular vote in 7 out of the last 8 general elections, yet Republicans won 3 out of 8. Despite Democrats consistently winning the popular vote, the Supreme Court is dominated by a 6-3 conservative majority. Forgotten? Rural America has an outsized influence in American government. Maybe it's time for rural America to try to understand the rest of us. NYT comments section.
Great interview! I commend both the city dweller and the country folk for just sitting down and respecting each other’s point of view.
Thank you for interviewing Barbara Kingsolver and talking about Appalachia! She is one of my favorite authors and an American literary giant. I also love her observations about the rural-urban divide and people needing someone to look down on. I think this is at the root a lot of our modern problems and could also be the solution if we overcome it.
Although I agree that pharma was predatory, please be careful with the diatribe against opioids. I have 5 autoimmune diseases that result in chronic pain, deformities and disabilities. I am on a pain management program and without it I wouldn’t want to live. My quality of life depends on medication to help with pain. Am I dependent on the meds at this point, yes. However I’m not addicted in the sense people think of. I never experience highs and take only what I need to live better. I have not increased dosage in 15 years. The pain never goes away completely.
My husband has degrading backbones and is 77. Without his patches he would have no life. There is a difference
I finished reading Demon Copperhead a week ago and cannot stop thinking about the characters and their stories.
Here in Kentucky I am comforted by Governor Beshear's steady hand, skills and devotion to getting help to the addicted, as well as our schools, farmers, small towns, workers and businesses. He is the only governor I've ever heard, who speaks our language, the language of the heart, community and soul.
Loved the book and greatly appreciate this excellent interview. My family started in Kentucky and eventually all came to Oregon. I was born in Oregon, and at 66, books and interviews like this are a gift to help me understand my families culture.
I can identify with Barbara's first college days. As a 15 year old growing up in rural Virginia, I got a scholarship to a prep school. When I arrived, my roommate pretended not to be able to understand me for the first month. I, of course, knew he could understand me perfectly.
I work for a 98 year old Irish woman. When she's in a bad mood, she pretends to not understand me too. 😅
Barbara Kingsolver has always been an ambassador between the oppressed and the empathetic. She draws empathy from all her readers about all those she cares for (which is humanity from all walks of life from the Congo to Central America to Indigenous Americans to Appalachians). I’ve learned so much from her having read most of her wonderful stories, and lived inside all her characters. Thank you!
I have finally completed my quest to read everything Kingsolver has ever written. I find her range of knowledge fascinating and really can not get enough of her storytelling skills. She's not a just a regional writer, though she is a master of setting and especially place: she is on the very short list of greatest American novelists of all times--and I've read virtually all of them. Moreover, . I vote for Demon Copperhead to take the place of Moby Dick, edging just ahead of Huck Finn. The ghostly influence of Charles Dickens and his writing advice in the intro totally drew an old lit teacher like me into the story. thrilled me. Further, her nonfiction is every bit as spellbinding as her fiction. High Tide in Tuscan and Animal, Vegetable, Mineral , the diary-like journal of her own family's year living locavore and raising her own food for a year, are some of the best creative nonfiction I have ever read. This is a remarkable interview. Well done.
Thank you so much! I loved this conversation. Also in Oregon and always held BK as a treasure.
Just a story: Our Adirondack camp ( think big old house with no insullation!) was turning 100 years old (2004!) Our great aunt had been a surgeon in the town( and in China and Africa!) and was well known. We went to the local paper to ask them to cover the story - no interest. Country matters just don't rate ( unless it is true crime!).
what a shame! they are missin' out
So sad. Wasn’t sexy enough
I haven’t yet read one of your novels, but am ordering Demon Copperhead today! As a girl I bought into the Appalachian stereotype to the point where in college in the earIy 60s I became a folkie, singing old ballads and imagining my Kentucky ancestors living down in the holler, making do in a hardscrabble mountain existence. I had not heard what my mother harped on, that we were from "good stock", educated (women as well as men) and sometimes prominent, like my great-something grandfather who was the second governor of Kentucky. Part of the problem was that my mother didn’t talk a lot about her personal experience because her mother developed mental illness when she was 10 or 11 and committed suicide when Mom was just 15. It took me decades to appreciate the taboo around mental illness and suicide and the complicated attitudes of my grandfather’s family, who were part of an old line of Scots in rural Rockbridge County in western Virginia. My own father was from small-town southwestern Pennsylvania, an area that may as well have been West Virginia. These families were intensely proud of their standing, but unfortunately were racist as well though their loyalties were on the Union side of the Civil War.
Kingsolver's delivery has been schooling me for years. Whose literature, like a meemaw's verbal/nonverbal instruction and varied touch wisdom, elevates my mind, body, and spirit. Blessed are my kinfolk!
I'm from General Motors, southwestern, Ohio. More than half the folks in my town had relatives from Appalachia (Think Hillbilly Elegy). I listen to her voice, pacing, emotion, spirit, and person, and I know her. I know her because she is my people and I'm her people. All my kin are from Kentucky and Tennessee. She could be my neighbor. She's so real to me.
Thank you for this enriching conversation. I love her books!
Who are my people?
Where do I come from?
Who will go with me ? ( included / excluded)
Who has power? Why? Who does not? Why not ?
What is evil?
What is my destination? Who will go with ne? What is " the map" to the destination ?
These are the mythic questions and explored/ addressed and left open ended throughout this universal themed narrative/ novel.
Ty for the experience , the breath of thought and the navigation through disagreement and discernment .
I lived most of my childhood less than an hours drive from Kingsolvers home today. Wise, Coal country Virginia. When Ezra countered or commented on his bg as a Jew, their flight from city to City, that’s when the conversation really became interesting and complex. I left because of the crushing environmental devastation that is Wise county, where we literally lived on a ‘reclaimed stripmine , of course in a trailer.
Just finished it this morning. I put it away after about 150 pages because the constant hardships Demon was subjected to were difficult for me. After a few weeks on the shelf I started where I left off and am glad I did! Poisonwood Bible is in my top 5, The Lacuna in my top 20. Looking forward to re-reading them both soon.
She is one of my favorite authors. Have read all of her books & will read this one for sure.
There is beauty in every culture. While stereotyping based on everything from gender to race to culture to geographical region is a natural human phenomenon (our brains are wired to discriminate friend from foe), it is something we must work to rid ourselves of. Keeping an open mind and nonjudgmental stance towards what we perceive as the “other” is challenging, especially since it’s mainly unconscious (implicit) bias. This is nothing to be ashamed of. Awareness of our own thoughts and beliefs as they arise can lead to challenging and changing them, which can then lead to positive behavior change.
This is something that should be taught in all schools in my opinion.
Bravo!
00:01 Introduction and Pulitzer Prize for Fiction winners
01:00 Setting and themes of the novel
02:06 Barbara Kingsolver's Appalachian background
03:01 Exploitation and challenges faced by Appalachians
04:06 Barbara Kingsolver's childhood and travels
06:00 Experience in Indiana and embracing her Kentucky roots
07:59 Living in Arizona and reconnecting with her Kentucky voice
10:02 Writing The Bean Trees and embracing her Appalachian background
12:19 Shame and stereotypes faced by Appalachian people
13:02 Rural self-sufficiency and the impact of urbanization
14:16 Historical context of rural exploitation and taxation
15:01 Stigmatization of rural people and their self-sufficiency
16:31 Challenges in writing an Appalachian novel and the power of storytelling
19:00 Antagonism between urban and rural communities
21:21 The need for understanding and bridging the urban-rural divide
24:31 Appalachia's frustration with being overlooked and the economic aid going to factories
26:43 Tommy's role as a key character and his connection to Charles Dickens
28:00 Tommy's quest to understand how Appalachia is seen by outsiders
36:55 The story of the orphans and the need for resources to help them.
37:42 The damage caused by addiction and the misconceptions surrounding it.
44:00 The importance of treating addiction as a disease and providing compassionate care.
49:05 The impact of addiction and the transition to heroin
49:49 The importance and complexities of community in Lee County
51:01 The value of community and knowing your people in Appalachia
55:00 The richness and privilege of living among diverse communities in cities
56:01 The importance of acceptance and comfort with difference
58:08 Book recommendations: 'Landings: A Crooked Creek Farm Year' by Arwen Donahue, 'Raising Lazarus' by Beth Macy, and 'Pod' by Lalene Paul
you are the realest mf ive ever not met
@@zavion1934 thats what im saying bro
Thx. I couldn’t listen in 1 sitting. Much appreciated
laline paull
What a grea writer and her voice! I oved this interview more than i expected.
My mom was a cease worker for abused and neglected kids. Also elderly many with black lung. This was even BEFORE the opioid epidemic. Ironically my mom had to flee our dad, who was abusive and mentally ill. Listening to this is like seeing my own life, esp addiction
In the middle of Demon Copperhead
Wonderful novel
She’s a national treasure
All of the stories are told in cities- yes, because of the loss of small newspapers and local news and that is because a big corporations and the internet have taken over and bankrupted the story tellers of Appalachia.
Treated like the native tribes of the American West are treated.
Being preyed upon and then dismissed is pathetic to the humans' soul.
Just to clarify, “just say no”. It’s a message targeted to children who have not yet tried drugs, and who might be tempted by others. It’s a message that worked for me.
What an amazing life story. Fantastic observations of Americans just now. Thank you so much for the truths about Appalachia, but also the Truth about
pulling of our citizens off the land... and onto the hamster wheel.
Excellent, Life-changing information.
Thank you for an amazing view into the world of the Appalachia- a part of my country that has always seemed like another planet to me. It’s richness and independent folk has definitely been targeted by the oligarchs, as in other areas, to destroy independent humanity, and take their land in time.
I love the book!!!! But I don't like the chip some rural people seem to have on their shoulders regarding being poorly treated. But I need to listen anyway. Neither rural nor urban should close their ears to the message from the other.
So often it IS hard to hear anyone tell the flat-out painful truth of their lives, isn't it? If it's really unvarnished, how can we not wince and clench our teeth? It seems natural to recoil in judgment, even to avert our eyes. It's hard to find compassion in that discomfort.
I lloved the book, though coming myself from another country and having assimilated here in the USA, the language used in Appalachia was foreign to me. Great work!
Hi Barbara, I have read and treasured all of your novels and essays. Taylor Greer remains one my favorite and certainly one of the most enduring character in American literature. I'm wondering what Taylor is doing today. Surely there is more to her story: an activist grandmother, a writer, a politician ? Please find her again for all of your readers.
Wonderful interview 👏
The Sackller brothers knew well the dangers of opioids they developed but insidiously pushed this drug. Doctors also were in collusion with the pharmaceutical companies being rewarded with trips, gifts etc. Both the Sackler family and the medical community share the blame and guilt for this specific drug epidemic.
The cities are where the bulk of the people are....it's a democracy! The problem is the immense political power of the rural people!!
Fantastic interview! Looking forward to reading her books 😊
Barbara Kingslover makes good points. One is that many people use negative words and insults in our public discourse.
It would be great if she could open up dialogue, especially, in my opinion, if it ncludes listening to understand as an aid to transitioning out of our near constant bickering.
As she says, a lot the loyalty to Trump stems from being heard.
The way that toxic, insult filled dialogue messes up my day most is when I think about it when I'm alone.
When I do that my attitude gets expressed in these insults. This sometimes leads to expressing my intermittent frustration with others using toxic internet jargon.
Hope we move past this squabble as a people and solve real problems like housing and opioids.
There are many of us living our lives out in the sticks, having to listen to the constant rants against urban liberals. Never mind your neighbors standing in front of you, coach your kids are liberals. Meanwhile they assume we are just like them, we keep quiet about it usually.
I cannot wait to get my copy of this novel about Appalachia. I read, loved, and taught Kingsolver's Poisonwood Bible. Kingsolver is so right about urban arrogance and ignorance.
I grew up in the rural south and have been a research physicist for 50 years. Over the past 20 years, I have deeply felt the contempt of Americans. I have seen friends who do climate research demonized for telling Americans what is happing to the Earth. I don't think people who demonize others for telling the truth are "good people". I don't think people who determine the truth of things by who says something are good people; I knew that by the time I was 10 years old growing up in the country. I had no animus agains the people I grew up among until later in life, when I realized the contempt they felt for me. And I saw the evangelical churches primarily peddling hate with little reference to the human kindness of Christianity. The people of Appalachia and the rural south show no evidence that they care at all about others except to force their views and self image on them.
I was born in the Midwest and was fortunate to grow up in Tucson. I fantasize Appalachia as the basis of my family culture. My few contacts with Appalachian folks are quite depressing for the reasons stated above. I truly wish it was different. My last Appalachian contact characterized all who disagreed with her as evil.
For decades I have checked the box on all applications or surveys requiring RACE as (other) Appalachian American
I LOVED this book; I also read it slowly but only to make it last longer and to enjoy the writing.
The owners of Perdu Pharma, in my opinion, should go to prison. Part of their rehab should be listening to those victimized by their sociopathy. This is what a free market health care system creates. It has to focus more on crisis intervention to survive extreme capitalism. It has to spend tons of money on advertising. The way neighbors care for one another in small towns is the heart of what it means to be bonded in community. The way Appalachians talk about their genealogy reminds me of Tolkien's hobbits. Without universal health care coverage, small town hospitals and health care staff will continue to migrate to the cities. America's war on drugs and its free market health care has denied many people good access to treatment due to long wait lines and the expense of treatment. I know this because I am retired from substance use counseling. People in small towns have wilderness survival skills ie growing and processing their own food, bartering, hunting, setting snares, building a cabin etc. that city people don't have.
If people knew how dangerous opiodes are - not how they are shown on television - and how every time a heroin user injests they are risking their lives - then maybe people would get the idea that you just don't mess around with it. It is sad to me how flagrantly communities will say one thing to their people but then do the opposite. This attitude.
Well they keep voting for the wrong people! Duh!
And take VW executives with them (for Dieselgate).
Speaking of cliches, when was the last time either party came out on the side of rural citizens, blue collar families, of any race or ethnicity? (And why is every issue covered by the NYTs turned somehow into consumer "lifestyle" issues?
You’ve got to be kidding! Who tried & succeeded in getting insulin price to $35 & some drugs lowered? Who wants to stop climate change? Ban bad chemicals from food & water? Keep food & drug safety inspections? Feed the poor & hungry? Fund unemployment & social security & Medicaid, who wants good public schools, a viable post office, anti-trust laws, crackdowns on abuse of power by corporations, etc. the entire plan of Democrats is to benefit citizens. The Republicans want to burn government t to the ground so they can profit from the chaos.
People of west Texas and the panhandle have and do farm on large expanses of flat land, but similarities with Appalachians do exist. The political conservatism is deeply ingrained. I wonder if that is due to the fact that many of the early settlers were from the south. By the way, some in this area have in the past expressed the opinion that it is not understood or treated fairly by the rest of the state, to the extent of suggesting it split off from the state, as a new state.
You're preaching to the choir. You're an attorney, what are all of these judges saying to themselves that is preventing them from putting Donny in jail? If you were one of these judges dealing with Donny what would you really do in their place? It seems to me that they could give him a few days in jail with the threat that with each new attack the time will get longer and longer until they hit Donny's pain threshold for jail. Is there any reason that can't be done?
Barbara!!! You are right on honey!!!
Ezra- I had to stop reading the book entirely for the reason you mentioned. The foreshadowing was so intense I couldn’t handle the stress. I think I could handle this in Dickens but this was too close to handle
Ezra, I had the same reaction to the story you described. It was wrenching.
oh, but "they" can tax the food grower, and even worse. Just read the history of collectivization in the Soviet Union.
Wonderful woman!
Okay--Appalachian people, like everyone, deserve respect. But, as Ezra points out, his people have been driven from the country by these people--going back to the fall of Rome. And Jews aren't the only ones. Black people, Native Americans, Asians, Mexicans, Gay people and everyone else that's a little different is justifiably afraid to live in, or even to visit, the 'country.' That fear is driven by a history of discrimination, dispossession, enslavement, incarceration, lynching and other forms of murder.
Don't bother asking for forgiveness until you have repented. All I'm seeing now from Trumpists and so-called evangelicals (as these people generally are) is doubling down on the original sin.
Well said.
Too many "moderates" can't see this.
Willfully so too often.
@@a.wadderphiltyr1559 Are you really "No it's YOU" with Antisemitism?
@@a.wadderphiltyr1559 Of COURSE you "Friends of Adolf" would use the term fucking "word spell" without awareness or irony.
JFC, you all need to put your energy into something positive like D&D with your need for drama.
@@a.wadderphiltyr1559 You're a very, super serious individual, I'm sure. So... Less D&D, and maybe more a Warhammer type? Yeah... That's what you need. Or Hell, just get in Star Wars or Mass Effect like a sane nerd.
Ron Rash, too . Tragedy, on a small and a big scale. It’s an older book, now, but Abraham Vergese’s My Own Country. Even the publicity movie Before the Fall, the lawyer’s talk about his father and himself, a great bitterness masked by politeness.
Read the book and found little or nothing in it to absolve Appalachia of its intentional obtuseness about ignoring the fact that these people put up with abuse from the mine owners and from the pharmaceutical companies but from the first by the parents who create people unable to do anyth8ng for themselves!. These are whites people who stay where they are but do little or nothing to make their communities better for individuals. All I could think of as I read this was all of those ex-slaves who at least had the gumption to leave places where they were the most abused and go to cities that had somewhat more opportunity for them.
No solutions given for this social ill?
To be sure, there is a need to discuss the urban/rural divide in America; the shrinking and disappearance of small towns; the consolidation of small farms into big ones; the loss of prime farm ground to developers; the appalling difficulty in rural communities to obtain even basic healthcare locally. But I found Kingsolver's perspective to be annoying . On one hand, she decries the urban view of tax-free subsistence farming in the hills of Appalachia, but on the other hand, seemed to readily dismiss the majority of agribusiness as (@ 25:36) "factories - you know industrial farms, that are producing soybeans and corn that are going into fast food, and that's not helping people." So now it's not just urban- rural antipathy, but "Iowa/Nebraska/Kansas/Indiana aren't rural enough??"👎
Seems that the solution is to fund them with locally derived taxes. No taxes, no development. Let them live their beloved 18th century lifestyle.
I think what she is saying is government is willing to exploit these areas and people when they need things but not the other way around when these areas need help. Communication is a two way street, not FEED ME! They want their tax revenues but are not willing to provide any infrastructure to make it so.
@@MrM1729There’s that elitist attitude I always see from urbanites
Right. I read her last book, Demon Copperhead.. She really got into that. Doesn't mean she's right about this. Not at all. And this is not loosely based on David Copperfield. She pursues her novel's parallel to Dickens chapter for chapter. I had to stop reading because the story broke down and repaired itself over and over. But I always started over again. So frustrating. Very good.
I hate the NYT. Still, I do appreciate Ezra's reporting.
😮You proved her point.
The question I have is why so-called urban liberals are always viewed to be at fault. Why is our job to understand and reach out to every other group in the country.
I hear you. There are many answers to this question, like Jesus says so, or we are more privileged, or this is how everyone should be etc.
But you do not have to pick up this burden if you do not feel like it.
You can do as you choose. It's not an expectation. It's an option. I love learning about and understanding other cultures within and outside of our country.
I can only listen to so much complaining and feeling sorry for one's culture. Perhaps Ms. Kingsolver could start an Appalachian newspaper. I would like to read this.
That is exactly what she tried so hard to show people like you: most addiction is not a personal moral failure. There is a larger force working here. And the closing of local newspapers is also not the fault of these small towns. Even the Rich Towns in the East or West Coast have the same problems. Your altitude is really insulting after listened to this podcast. You learned Nothing!
@@qingzhou9983thank you for your thoughtful, yet firm reply. After I finished the book, my very strong feeling was and is, my despair about bridging America's deep cultural divide has lifted. Because Barbara Kingsolver is way ahead of me with her beautiful and insightful novel. I'm saddened by the hostile and snarky comments from people whom I thought her message would not only reach, but whom I thought would reinforce. The fissure remains deep, yet, I still have hope. Again, because this is such a powerful story. Thank you Barbara Kingsolver
I Can identify with this. Inside outsider. Outsider branding no matter where. 25:32 really tired of being the invisible.
59:18
Arwin Donahue graphic novel.
Pod by lilian paul.
What a sweetheart!
And maybe Appalachians have a poor understanding of those living in high density urban environments
She's late to the game on this one. Love her.
I wasn't aware of the opioid problem in the area, as I knew about the booming, spa-like settings/retreats in Florida where addicts come for treatments, and want healthcare to cover the high costs of travel & detox.
the concept of a region covering more than one state is maybe not as complicated as the guest believes. everyone who ever looked at a mountain on a map will be aware of the idea 😄
I hope Ezra writes that novel.
It very interesting that this country folk, this self-sufficient individual, this person from the “Heartland of America”, this farmer … who is so overlooked .. is best represented by a guy that has absolutely no interest in living in that part of America, that has ONLY lived in the city, that has opulence poring out of Mar-la-go … is the person who best represents these “fly-over folks”.
The irony is unbelievable
Exactly this is inexplicably upside down to me
Philadelphia, you mean? The half million black voters who stayed home? Long Island, you mean?
Goodness, the disdain of the city people for the rural people and the disdain of the rural people for the city people is a shame. And listen, you both of you areas, neither side should get to ignore the other simply because they don't like the "way" the message has been delivered. You must ignore the style and listen for the message.
If rural areas feel "overlooked," then by the same token, urban people feel "under-seen" and ignored, too.
@@patriciajump9511 ABSOLUTELY AGREE!! Let’s take “fly-over country” Wyoming (581K), North Dakota (779K), South Dakota (910K), Montana 1,123K), Idaho (1,939K), Nebraska (1,968K), Iowa (3,201K), Utah (3,381K) and Oklahoma (4,020) have a total population of 15,041,000 … and have 18 Senators… California has 39,029,000 and has two. Fly-over country has less than half the population of California but has nine times the representation… explain to me how that reflects democracy of “One man, one vote!” ..
I’ve enjoyed Kingsolver‘s books but some of the interview strikes me as false. Growing up in a physician’s family, enjoying international residence and enviable social capital tells me that she is a daughter of privilege, which exists wherever one may be growing up. She went to college not as a sort of fluke but because, we could assume, her physician father told her that she has to go. It doesn’t matter what her high school teachers may have told her.
Yeah, that struck me, too - but I'm willing to cut her some slack due to the over-all quality of her thought and writing. But I do think that she's fudging at least a bit about her own background.
Agree.
The chasm between left and right is too wide to be bridged now.
I used to think that-I could barely talk to my son as we differed so much on politics-BUT we started to read geopolitical analysts and other non-political views of world events and we totally bonded even when we disagreed. We only get angry if we put a political spin on things but we often find politics offers no true solutions.
Look up "Braver Angels" and be part of the movement to bridge the divide.
What is the new ‘Right’?.. A minority rule, personality cult of a convicted grifter..
Yes both sides equally bad.
One side thinks there's been a targeting of a demographic in this country to support a soon to be convicted obvious Con Man, grifter, demagogue by way of lying about an election with such a lack of evidence 60 court cases were laughed out of the system.
The other side believes there's a vast conspiracy of pedophile Satanists whom super duper, honest, brave and not at all a lifelong sack of shit Donald Trump will vanquish with the power of the Holy Spirit by his side once he's rightfully returned to the WH as ordained by God.
Both sides?
JFC, stop pissing in our ears and telling us it's rain.
Are the people of Appalachia not at all responsible for consistently voting against their own best interests?
One way to understand it is that people will commonly vote against their interests but never against their identity.
@miketrotman9720 Please explain. Not getting it.
They traditionally voted Democrat. So yeah they voted against their own interests
As do Liberal Democrats in urban centers. Look at the anger among residents in Chicago and New York (at the moment) with the migrant crisis and crime. People are upset about the chaos and taxpayer money used, yet they voted for the policies and politicians who enabled these very crises.
@toshland5687 Neither party has been able to deal with immigration problems so bad example. The Democrats are far from perfect but the Republican Party exists solely to serve corporations and the wealthy. They gin up cultural issues to distract voters and get the gullible to help them. If you deny this then please inform us about any Republican legislation that has helped the working class in the last 50 years.
Wow
What did she mean by saying she understood why Trump appealed to her neck if the woods but he was the wrong guy? She did not say what she didn’t like about him. I hate dangling jabs this one. I wish she had not said it without some explanation.
She is brilliant. I personally think she is wrong about how addiction is considered. The vast majority of people don't think that addiction is a moral failing. That view was thrown out in the 1950s by the medical. People who are addicted are victims of many things: business marketing, false messages about drugs (claiming they're not addictive) and intergenerational drama. What was done in Appalachia was so predatory and evil. The evil continues everywhere today.
Just seeing the response of people to the homeless, and to the meth addicts in our town, shows me they do think of it as a moral problem. The media has its way, but the average person in the world has a lot to say about 'those people'.
@@realperson6201 the bad person stigma remains. It was never washed away.
Yes, very well said!
The vid below appertains to the new conservative angry vid
Kingsolver?
She invented the guillotine?
Ok, I'm sorry
IMO as a RNX 35yr, addiction NOT a disease - no one I know w diseases is happy when in relapse. Addicts are THRILLED with being high. IMO, addiction is the result of making bad decisions, day after day. Medical treatment is helpful w withdrawal symptoms, after that.. the addiction needs to learn how to make better life decisions. Otherwise, we keep giving billions to a rehab industry w a 85-90% failure rate
I believe most addicts have unresolved trauma
So... precisely the EXACT same POV that resulted in "The War On Drugs" as we have known it for about 60 years now?
How is that working out for us, exactly?
RN or not, viewing this all through a lens of moral failings and expecting us to arrest people or ruin lives to "teach a lesson" feels like it ridiculously out of date as a rational approach to substance abuse issues, especially since we can see a variety of social and policy approaches in other countries we would consider peer nations that have far less violent crime yet have applied other means beyond just using punishment and incarceration.
Maybe the answer isn't intentionally degrading fellow citizens's character, judgement and intelligence but opening ourselves up to policies in place in our peer nations whose efficacy as compared to our War On Drugs has been pretty much proven when comparing cost, both in money, people's lives and general social order?
Cuz continuing to do what we have been and using the out of step "Christian Morals" of the 1950's to address addiction is simply not currently working and it never will.
You have no empathy. You must not have any friends or family who are addicted. You need to educate yourself more about this DISEASE before making those comments
Barbara's economic analysis doesn't make much sense. Sure people in rural, agricultural settings can produce commodities--but they also consume: energy, equipment, material resources. This is basically the same equation as anywhere else: people work at their job to produce whatever their employer is paying them for, and in the process, they also consume. I don't see any reason to glorify the transactional nature of our existence, when basically everyone does it (with minor variations). I simply don't see Appalachia as having any particular claim on exploitation, either. Literally everyone in our capitalist society is exploited by "the system," i.e., the corporate elites at the top of the food chain who prey on the rest of us.
oh please who isn't portrayed with a local hat and some tool? that's how you do a cartoon otherwise no one would know who the person is.
the main stereotype i see is that she says this portrait is a conspiracy to make fun of their resourcefulness and the idea that there's some evil plan - like "being targeted with opioids" - is the perfect stereotype for Appalachians.
just make your own goddamned cartoons if you don't like those "made in the city"
jeeezuz 🙄
‘Liberals’ are the only ones hoping to help Appalachia, many liberals live in rural areas ourselves. We ‘know’ these people too, know the prejudices and lack of information and education that ARE responsible for Covid denial, refusal to follow safety guidelines (the Lord will save the faithful!), attacks on vaccines & denial of science. I saw my Aunt’s church friends encourage her to let the Lord cure her colon cancer-so he could have the glory and she could demonstrate her faith. She died although her cancer was at an entirely curable stage. Trying to penetrate myths, prejudices does not mean disrespect or misunderstanding. We went to school with & know entire families intimately, their aunts & uncles, grands, cousins etc.
Why would you bring up Trump? This book deals with an opioid crisis and right now it is the worst its ever been. All over
I don't think we "liberals" (believers in democracy) give the Appalachia too much thought.
Man, are the ill willed trolls out all over this thread. People who never walked through a barn lot, only grocery stores. Like all open minded, compassionate geniuses.
My father was born a literal dirt farmer in the middle of the island of Puerto Rico and he didn't come into contact with indoor plumbing until he arrived on the mainland in the 1950's around the age of ten or eleven. His age when he died in 2014? We don't know, his father had to borrow his own mother's horse to register him and get a birth certificate TWO TO THREE YEARS LATER.
Mom was born literally on Roosevelt Island in NYC.
Both raised under dirt poor circumstances.
When I was 13 we moved to rural Pennsylvania in the 1990's back when the area we bought a house in still had literal sustenance hunters who did so to provide cheap meat for their family. We used to play a game counting all the cars that would pass IN A DAY. I lived in rural Pa. until moving back to NYC in 1997 but my mother, father and grandmother all remained in the Poconos.
I am pretty intimate with both worlds. I have been in the country being warned by state troopers that flooding was gonna wash away my home when it was just me and my grandmother there. I was in NYC on the morning of 9/11 (As were a lot of my family that day) and experienced that hellscape of a day up close.
Now... I have deep sympathies with rural communities, and yes, there's a lot of "Urban Privilege" with people having reflexive biases that don't serve their self image as high minded tolerant progressives/liberals or what have you...
But that chip on your shoulder must be so big it must be blinding your vision.
Let's start with the fact that like EVERYWHERE else in the country despite what provincial types seethe continually about... The cities are made up of HARD WORKING PEOPLE no less than farmland. In fact just by the fact of population and population density there's more working people in the cities than elsewhere.
We ain't all Hollywood actors and investment bankers, JFC, so acting like there's this giant divide is silly.
As for taking abuse in popular culture? Look, there is a lot of "Redneck bashing" but please... there hasn't been a literal fifty plus year organized political movement whose track record for decades has shown that they will demonize anyone "Urban" to rile up outrage and resentments (Often UNEARNED) among rural Americans?
In the 80's/90's it was all us non rich city folk were all "Welfare Queens" or drug addicts. The War On Drugs? A moral calling and crusade that was fueled by the "weakness" of all those Urban Dwelling addicts that needed to have the book thrown at them! Right?
But when rural America was being hollowed out by Meth and Opioid abuse... Well we need to understand the root causes now and not hold these small town folk too responsible for their situations, after all life FOR THEM is tough and they are confronting huge systemic forces like big pharma... Where is your compassion some would say?
I would say... where was this compassion and understanding when the subject was "Urban" non-White addiction?
Look... Left of Center folk in the country have TRIED to enact policy and reform that would benefit America's rural citizens for a very long time.
Instead ya'lls continue to fall for the Conservative BS while having incredibly selective memory about the fuck metric ton of invective that has been the literal basis of the majority of GOP rhetoric and policy proscriptions since the 1960's at least.
How about this... Practice taking the mote out of your own eye first, and stop pissing in our ears and telling us its rain?
The book is not political but woah this thread sure is
Emotions run deep. Let's hope passion to work together for the betterment of all will lead us to victory.
Ms Kingsolver lost a fan with this interview. Never realized she was such a narcissistic whiner, but there you have it. I'm not an urban liberal, but this lust to divide people should have been beneath her.
Getting so tiresome to hear how we all see ourselves as victims
Once we get rid of the greedy, predatory creatures, there won't be any victims.
what an unappealing title. Why would I watch some thing that begins by telling me I have it all wrong? No thank you.
Perhaps to take an opportunity to disillusion and educate yourself about something you, possibly, have 'all wrong'? I don't know; just seems a possibility.
The book started out strong then devolved into a Lifetime movie.
😂
I used to love listening to Ezra Klein. But these podcasts are all too old.
I am from this place and I love the “who are your people” stories until the skin color changes and the Bible comes out. Then I want no part of it. Until we deal with what we did and continue to do to the black community in our society, all I hear is whining. Despite the research and life experiences this author has had, I am not hearing self-reflection. In all fairness, I have not read any of her books, and those topics maybe addressed outside of this interview. Love you Ezra!!
I agree. The only identification of non-white people was Ezra's; Barbara's description of her people and community never included a non-white prefix. She assumes everyone in Appalachia is white, and isolated, having never even left their counties. Let a bunch a black and Jewish and Hispanic and Asian reporters and social workers live among the conservative white Appalachian who have little variety in their little white towns. They can give their kids educations, encourage education as a value, take excursions into larger places like she did, rather than blaming the city world for not seeking them out. They often vote against their own interests as conservatives, who have done major con jobs on rural white Americans. As a writer, I admire Kingsolver very much.
I can't tell if she loves poverty or hates poverty... very urban liberal, you might say.