Speaking as one of the ones who worked on the Tech readout 3050 for FASA back in the day, you need to know that these changes were made by FASA and not the play test group (us) as we took those considerations into account for heat, armor, mobility and ammunition but FASA felt that the mech designs in that manner were too "OP" for table top and immediately nerfed them very badly. The same is true of Tech Readout 3055 as well. For example, the Rhino (100 ton Assault mech) sported 3 x UAC20's and 6 tons of ammo at the cost of a slight loss of armor on the legs and arms to compensate for the weight needed in our design but FASA changed this. We designed the mech to be an Atlas killer which at 309 Max armor, the ability of the Rhino to throw 120 points out in single alpha strike. It was in fact a very short range brawler but a mech killer at all tonnages. Assuming that all 3 UAC20's hit, there wasn't much of the enemy mech left.
Thank you for the insight. I hope the video didn't come off as too critical. Like I said in the video, I appreciate the fact that in-universe mechs are not min-maxed.
@@MechanicalFrog Nope. No issues here but I thought you might like to know that the design system put forth in the Battle Tech manual did not limit weapons by hard points like you see on games like MWO, MW, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc and the reason for this is the playability factor involved. So when we designed the mechs, we designed them for very specific roles as our games were very RPG oriented both in and out of the mech (a very disgusting body disposal using a vibroblade and a toilet comes to mind). FASA always oriented the firepower of the mech to align with the inability to 1 shot kill the majority of mechs by sheer firepower alone. For example, in MW2, Ghost Bear expansion in the challenge against the Spirit bear, I threw 3 xUAC20's on a 100 ton mech with jump jets to move in rapidly and kill it in 7 seconds flat. 120 points dead center destroyed his engine. I also used this same tactic (Jump jets on 100 ton mechs) to be able to turn rapidly to counter light mech maneuverablity.
My favorite Battlemech "upgrade" was when the DCMS replaced the PPC on the Panther's arm with an ER-PPC and then didn't upgrade the heatsinks to compensate for the additional heat generated. Just... truly inspired. Oh, I see you included it. Perfect. 🤣
As much as I love the AC/5, any time it can be replaced with a PPC, it's generally the right choice. You save one ton on the weapon, at least one ton on ammo, and you get twice as much damage for a decent heat increase. Which you can offset with two heatsinks thanks to the weight saving. What's not to love?
The glaring retrofit that comes to mind is the Goliath 3M. if you're going to go to the trouble of incoporating a Gauss rifle, you should atleast give it 2 tons of ammo. Instead, the mech has 2 tons of MG ammo for a weapon system that would argueably last a month on campaign with 1 ton of ammo.
The worst updated mech ever. *Did we add more machingeguns? No sir. Ok, double the machinegun ammo. While you are at it, move the missile ammo to the same torso. When it blows up, I want to see the blast from orbit. 400 bursts of machinegun ammo, 24 reloads for the LRM 10's, and 8 shots for the Gauss rifle. Now to just find someone we don't like to sell them to.*
Keep in mind some of these were supposed to mimic the field upgrades of the weapons upgrade kits coming to the front, not always full factory upgrades, yet those things that got mentioned in the Kerensky Trilogy by Stackpole but didn't quite make it into the TRO3050 even the original with the nice appendix with all the extra information.
@@nationalsocialism3504 You get what you when you have to do something. Field upgrades are not meant to be perfect, they are stop gap measures. The mechs that should have been rolling of the lines in 3055 or 3058 should have been the machines that were built to tackle the Clans and we saw what happen there.
@@nationalsocialism3504 The book mechs aren't suppsoed to be perfect, they are supposed be just good enough, no different than military equipment has always been. We can all build excellent mechs, and some of our designs will nerf the game to hell, which defeats the point of the game, so that is also why the book mechs are average at best. Not saynig that average can't be better, but not everything is going to be amazing everytime.
@@nationalsocialism3504 they are built into the engine which is why you get one free heat sink slot per 25 engine rating, built into and part of the shielding which is actually the bulk of the engine.
It was always my opinion that when they upgraded the Jagermech they should have kept the original weapons sans AC2s, dropping them for more armor, CASE, and double heat sinks. If one insists on upgraded weapons ER lasers would be good
@@michaelrupp9288 I hear you on that, but I dont accept it. It was annoying as the BJ-1 was a standard with my friends because we all got the old Plastech models.
A lot of the 3050 upgrades suffer from "new toy syndrome", i.e. they were too focused on tha fact that they could swap old tech for new to consider whether they really should. Panther 10K is definitely the most egregious example, but there's also some mechs that do stuff like cram a single streak SRM2 on a design that would otherwise have no ammo and thus be immune to ammo explosion. As for the ones that do it right, most of the upgrades for the 55 ton trio (Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine) are good. Raven gets a big upgrade from replacing the prototype version's EW gear with ECM and TAG, and also benefits from actually having something to do with the ECM since there's not technology that it counters. Charger and Cyclops benefit a lot from their upgrades, though the 3050 versions are still at best mediocre. The Atlas upgrade is also far better than you'd expect despite having an XL engine and single heat sinks. Probably wouldn't put it in the top 10, but it's always performed far better for me than I'd expect just looking at the stats. I don't remember if the C3M version was in the original TRO3050 but that's actually a very solid C3 master (though I wish somebody would've made a later version that gives it double heat sinks: it doesn't actually need more sinks but switching from 20 singles to 10 doubles would free up 10 tons to use for something else). Also, the most inconsequential upgrade is probably the Jenner 7-K. It swamps armor to ferro-fibrous to fit CASE in exchange for a couple of points less armor, and that's it. CASE isn't even all that useful for a light mech with 1 ton of SRM ammo since the odds are pretty good the mech will get blown up before you get an ammo crit since it can't take very many hits anyway.
All good picks. But how about the Catapult, whose 3050 TRO entry turned a reliable fire support 'Mech into an artillery piece that can only fire 5 times before trudging home?
The Catapult is kind of an interesting one, since unlike most other 3050 upgrades that are intended to be more or less "same but more" versions of the 3025 versions (though some, like the Panther, fail at that and are at best sidegrades), the Catapult completely changes its role into an artillery platform. Its lack of ammo is a serious limitation, but it's also the only artillery mech you have in 3050, and AFAIK the only Arrow IV platform outside Comstar at the time, so it still ends up being the best for its (highly specialized) role. I'm glad there is a later variant that gives it endp-steel and DHS to free tonnage to fix the ammo issue.
Have to say I think I may disagree with your premise on this one. While I fully agree with the Panther, Rifleman and Pixie? An "upgrade" means improved over the previous. While the JM6-DD didn't truly fix a lot of issues, it is undeniably IMPROVED over the JM6-S. Also there were no UAC2s in TRO 3050 IS Mechs, they weren't available, yet. The Hoplite, likewise, while still terrible? IS still improved. Thus is upgraded. Also many of these are field upgrades to existing chassis, making Endo, CASE and XLs impossible in practical terms to add, and even DHS require a fair bit of work. On the factory new designs, I may consider these an actual flaw, though in the case of an XL, the added vulnerability mean it's not a free lunch, and while Endo is a "no brainer", the Inner Sphere as like a half dozen Orbital Foundries capable of manufacturing Endo-Steel. This means that in lore, the Inner Sphere manufacturers are ALWAYS working at a deficit for available endo-steel, thus in many cases, it wasn't really an option. CASE on the other hand? Should be mandatory on ANY new design packing ammo. And example of a design that was made worse? HBK-5M Hunchback. It has a whopping 5 shots for it's AC20, instead of the 10 from the 4G, and it also really benefit very very little from carrying 13 DHS. Also dropping down to a simple 10 DHS would have freed up enough tonnage to double it's AC20 ammo, AND add JJs like the later Steiner 5S does. This is a factory new design, as evidenced by the CASE, so there really is little excuse. I will also nominate 2 that aren't as "great" of upgrades as frequently thought. The SHD-5M Shadowhawk ends up with only 10 shots for it's UAC in double fire mode, and has un-CASEd streak ammo in it's CT. Likewise it has only 6 reloads for it's LRM20, meaning it has largely bad battlefield endurance, even if one ignores it's fragile XL engine (which I'm glad they did as it has the right flavor of not enough battlefield testing to understand the shortcomings). A simple shift of the SRM ammo out of the CT, and the use of an artemis equipped LRM15 leaves enough tonnage to double the payload on both the UAC5 and the LRM rack. The we have the ENF-5D. Nearly flawless upgrade, better speed, ammo issue fixed, improved range. But then they keep the base 12 SHS. So simply firing it's ERLL uses ALL it's heat cap, without factoring in movement or other weapons. While the LB-X only adds 2 heat, that's still 2 too much, and jumping means you are running into penalties almost immediately. Obvious answer would be the have used 10 DHS, allowing an additional half ton of armor, an upgrade of the SL to an SPL and adding a single Medium Laser. TBH, I feel there are very few mechs in TRO 3050 that I think can be called a "free lunch" true upgrade. The VT-5M is one that comes to mind, as it makes the Vulcan more effective, while sacrificing nothing over the original. One can criticize the lack of CASE for the MG ammo, but since neither the older 2T/5T models had it? It's still an improved version. Another is the WLF-2 Wolfhound, which made a super basic, but effective upgrade, simply by switching to DHS. My poster child though is the CN9-D Centurion. While one could argue the lack of improved armor, it doesn't get worse, and the inclusion of the 300 XL also changes it's role dynamically, from a Trooper design (already covered for House Davion with the Enforcer) to a Cavalry Mech. And it excels at that.
The most frustrating thing about battletech is the lack of use of the latest tech. I upgrade every mech when I play and it got to the point where I had to make my data sheets. The lore holds the game back.
The latest tech is usually very expensive, and since the Battletech universe runs on c-bills and not points or tonnage to buy mechs, compromises sometimes have to be made.
the rifleman AC changes always baffled me. also the jagermech doesnt use ultra AC2s, the inner sphere didnt have them at the time. The shadow hawk benefitted hugely with 3050, going from a laughing stock to a vvery dangerous mobile fire support mech, i love it. a bunch of mechs switched to double heatsinks but then didnt drop excess heatsinks to do other things - the hunchback and quickdraw come to mind (the hoplites 'too many heatsinks' issue predates 3050)
@@MechanicalFrog on the topic of ACs, I kinda want to go back through all the TROs, and MekaMek, and replace the AC5s and 2s with LACs, and just headcanon that the LACs were the original ACs. FASA really badly balanced autocannons imo >_>
It was on the short list but BigRed just beat the crap out of it in a recent video so I didn't want to add insult to injury for any Shogun fans out there.
I'd like to point out that the original Rifleman did not have heat-problems in it's intended role. I used to think it's a bad mech until that one time we actually used it against fighters. When fighters attack battlemechs they couls only make a pass every 2 rounds. And that allowed the Rifleman to fire all it's weapons and then cool down on the round that the fighter needs to circle around for the next pass. When you use it to fight other mechs it's truly bad, but it does work in it's intended role.
The Rifleman's arms flip due to lack of torso twisting range but in game it has the same firing arc for arms. I often thought firing one arm with the mounted ac5 and large laser at targets in the arm arc was how it was to be used in combat. A little heat for one arm firing and a lot of arcs to make it happen.
Only one I disagree on is the Hoplite, because the upgrade does make the 'Mech better. Yes its not dramatically better, but its not like ER swaps without double heat sinks in that the benefits outweigh the costs.
I would much rather have the Hoplite upgrade (it let's you carry solid shot and cluster rounds) than what happened to the Hunchback 5M. To add CASE they stripped out ammo, leaving 5 shots for the AC20! I would much rather drop heatsinks to keep the ammo (or increase it to 15 shots), add CASE, and upgrade that small to a medium laser. Also, fix the back armor.
IS 3050 did not have access to UAC 2s, so I am not sure where you got that blackjack spec from. At least in the 90s IS in 3050 only had UAC 5s and LB10X as far as upgraded autocannons go.
Who needs Heat Sinks when you can have ER weaponry? And remember, before they fixed it, the Blackjack BJ-2, had 11 single heatsinks for twin ER-Large Lasers. While it is "Fixed", it wasn't fixed for some time. And I love it.
I spent more than a little time back in the day trying to figure out how to use the BJ-2 (not to mention the OS-4D and the SCP-10 that have the same issue and got the same treatment) in a way that made them preferable to the original.
The Ostscout gets a pass in my eyes because it at least gains the utility of being a hard-to-hit artillery spotter to use with your Arrow IV or Semi-Guided LRM platforms. Compare this to the original which was just a shittier Locust.
@@z3r0_35 Oh, as a conceptual chassis, i like the Ostscout. (It has a jump of 8??? Get me some of that!) But the TAG only works if you were able to set up your units in a certain way.
@@michaelrupp9288 The problem is that the cost of that jumping ability is that it doesn't have much to spare for weapons, so if you're limited to just one ton of equipment, might as well be something useful for the scouting role rather than a weapon you can't even protect yourself from INFANTRY with. Yes, infantry can kill an Ostscout, quite easily in fact. Maybe with additional weight-saving tech it could be more useful, but the canon variants just suck. However, I have come up with custom loadouts that aren't complete trash. One starts with the SLDF royal variant (the OTT-7b), adds an XL engine, and uses the freed up weight to add a Guardian ECM suite, TAG, a pair of medium pulse lasers, and another half ton of armor, turning it into a really effective scout that can also do a bit of fighting if absolutely required to.
The Hoplite... Is an upgrade from a upgrade kit. They just upgraded the gun and added ammo. It is one of the best 'upgrade kit" from the lore. It does not make the mech good lol
well, the assassin wasn't great to beginn with, but somehow they still managed to downgrade it. the awesome is also a downgrade, since it puts ammo in a mech that would work better without it!
Any mech using Artemis. Narc becon is clearly a better option. Put it on a light fast mech. Let everything else save that Artemis Tonnage for more ammo, armor, heat sinks or weapons!
I'm going to throw Warhammer out there, technically better but a ton of wasted potential. 18 double Hs is excessive, and I have never been sold on IS ERPPCs I don't think the range bump justifies the heat at all.
Yeah any time you give a mech a big gun with almost no ammo, that feels like a suicide mission rather than an upgrade. The Goliath has the same issue, along with many others.
I think you have missed the truly terrible Grasshopper GHR-5J "upgrade". This "upgrade" manages to reduce the effective firepower of the Mech and adding systems it doesn´t need.
![SAFEPLANET - ดาวเคราะห์ [ THE PLANET ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4X1XL3I_k3c/mqdefault.jpg)
Speaking as one of the ones who worked on the Tech readout 3050 for FASA back in the day, you need to know that these changes were made by FASA and not the play test group (us) as we took those considerations into account for heat, armor, mobility and ammunition but FASA felt that the mech designs in that manner were too "OP" for table top and immediately nerfed them very badly.
The same is true of Tech Readout 3055 as well. For example, the Rhino (100 ton Assault mech) sported 3 x UAC20's and 6 tons of ammo at the cost of a slight loss of armor on the legs and arms to compensate for the weight needed in our design but FASA changed this. We designed the mech to be an Atlas killer which at 309 Max armor, the ability of the Rhino to throw 120 points out in single alpha strike. It was in fact a very short range brawler but a mech killer at all tonnages. Assuming that all 3 UAC20's hit, there wasn't much of the enemy mech left.
Thank you for the insight. I hope the video didn't come off as too critical. Like I said in the video, I appreciate the fact that in-universe mechs are not min-maxed.
@@MechanicalFrog Nope. No issues here but I thought you might like to know that the design system put forth in the Battle Tech manual did not limit weapons by hard points like you see on games like MWO, MW, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc and the reason for this is the playability factor involved.
So when we designed the mechs, we designed them for very specific roles as our games were very RPG oriented both in and out of the mech (a very disgusting body disposal using a vibroblade and a toilet comes to mind).
FASA always oriented the firepower of the mech to align with the inability to 1 shot kill the majority of mechs by sheer firepower alone.
For example, in MW2, Ghost Bear expansion in the challenge against the Spirit bear, I threw 3 xUAC20's on a 100 ton mech with jump jets to move in rapidly and kill it in 7 seconds flat. 120 points dead center destroyed his engine.
I also used this same tactic (Jump jets on 100 ton mechs) to be able to turn rapidly to counter light mech maneuverablity.
@@ArkLord001 Interesting. Thank you for the additional clarifying information.
@@ArkLord001 Super interesting to hear! Would be incredible to pick your brain on this.
@@nerdyOveranalyzed In what way? Keep in mind, I worked on this some ~35 years ago
My favorite Battlemech "upgrade" was when the DCMS replaced the PPC on the Panther's arm with an ER-PPC and then didn't upgrade the heatsinks to compensate for the additional heat generated. Just... truly inspired.
Oh, I see you included it. Perfect. 🤣
It was particularly egregious.
I think the changes to the Clint, namely switching the AC5 to a PPC was a solid change.
I agree. The clint is an underrated mech overall.
It also added Double Heat Sinks.
As much as I love the AC/5, any time it can be replaced with a PPC, it's generally the right choice. You save one ton on the weapon, at least one ton on ammo, and you get twice as much damage for a decent heat increase. Which you can offset with two heatsinks thanks to the weight saving. What's not to love?
@@WolfHreda Agreed! Especially with double heat sinks!
Grasshopper should of been added to this list. All they did was replace the Large Laser with an ER, then removed the LRm-5 for a Streak-2
Definitely a contender...
@@MechanicalFrog Also the Guillotine
adding 2 tons of streak ammo is worse than putting in a streak srm
Did they also put a shitty AMS in too?
@@routesman As opposed to a non-shitty AMS?
The glaring retrofit that comes to mind is the Goliath 3M. if you're going to go to the trouble of incoporating a Gauss rifle, you should atleast give it 2 tons of ammo. Instead, the mech has 2 tons of MG ammo for a weapon system that would argueably last a month on campaign with 1 ton of ammo.
Agreed.
They just want to screw us over super dry dude!
The worst updated mech ever. *Did we add more machingeguns? No sir. Ok, double the machinegun ammo. While you are at it, move the missile ammo to the same torso. When it blows up, I want to see the blast from orbit. 400 bursts of machinegun ammo, 24 reloads for the LRM 10's, and 8 shots for the Gauss rifle. Now to just find someone we don't like to sell them to.*
Keep in mind some of these were supposed to mimic the field upgrades of the weapons upgrade kits coming to the front, not always full factory upgrades, yet those things that got mentioned in the Kerensky Trilogy by Stackpole but didn't quite make it into the TRO3050 even the original with the nice appendix with all the extra information.
Yeah some are a bit rough.
Heat sinks are integral part of the engine so technically upgrades to double should also require an engine swap as well.
@@nationalsocialism3504 You get what you when you have to do something. Field upgrades are not meant to be perfect, they are stop gap measures. The mechs that should have been rolling of the lines in 3055 or 3058 should have been the machines that were built to tackle the Clans and we saw what happen there.
@@nationalsocialism3504 The book mechs aren't suppsoed to be perfect, they are supposed be just good enough, no different than military equipment has always been. We can all build excellent mechs, and some of our designs will nerf the game to hell, which defeats the point of the game, so that is also why the book mechs are average at best. Not saynig that average can't be better, but not everything is going to be amazing everytime.
@@nationalsocialism3504 they are built into the engine which is why you get one free heat sink slot per 25 engine rating, built into and part of the shielding which is actually the bulk of the engine.
It was always my opinion that when they upgraded the Jagermech they should have kept the original weapons sans AC2s, dropping them for more armor, CASE, and double heat sinks. If one insists on upgraded weapons ER lasers would be good
Dropping the AC2s would have only helped.
@@MechanicalFrog 12 tons of reach out and tweak someone, those AC/2s...hee
LOVED this TRO! Also the Ghost Bear Timber Wolf is so iconic!
One of my favorite TROs.
The Man Of War Prime feels like it exists as a hazing tool for early clan warriors.
It is the Charger of Invasion Clan mechs.
You forgot the Blackjack. Dual ER Large Lasers with single heatsinks. It was only with a reprint that it got double heatsinks.
Oh, missed that one.
that it got retconned in the revised book I think should remove it from consideration, personally!
They fixed that! It was a typo in the record sheets! It was always meant to have DHS!
@@michaelrupp9288 Agreed!
@@michaelrupp9288 I hear you on that, but I dont accept it. It was annoying as the BJ-1 was a standard with my friends because we all got the old Plastech models.
A lot of the 3050 upgrades suffer from "new toy syndrome", i.e. they were too focused on tha fact that they could swap old tech for new to consider whether they really should. Panther 10K is definitely the most egregious example, but there's also some mechs that do stuff like cram a single streak SRM2 on a design that would otherwise have no ammo and thus be immune to ammo explosion.
As for the ones that do it right, most of the upgrades for the 55 ton trio (Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Wolverine) are good. Raven gets a big upgrade from replacing the prototype version's EW gear with ECM and TAG, and also benefits from actually having something to do with the ECM since there's not technology that it counters. Charger and Cyclops benefit a lot from their upgrades, though the 3050 versions are still at best mediocre. The Atlas upgrade is also far better than you'd expect despite having an XL engine and single heat sinks. Probably wouldn't put it in the top 10, but it's always performed far better for me than I'd expect just looking at the stats. I don't remember if the C3M version was in the original TRO3050 but that's actually a very solid C3 master (though I wish somebody would've made a later version that gives it double heat sinks: it doesn't actually need more sinks but switching from 20 singles to 10 doubles would free up 10 tons to use for something else).
Also, the most inconsequential upgrade is probably the Jenner 7-K. It swamps armor to ferro-fibrous to fit CASE in exchange for a couple of points less armor, and that's it. CASE isn't even all that useful for a light mech with 1 ton of SRM ammo since the odds are pretty good the mech will get blown up before you get an ammo crit since it can't take very many hits anyway.
The intense desire to add an ERPPC and/or a Gauss Rifle to things ended up causing more harm than good in quite a few cases.
I would submit that the "upgraded" Scorpion is an even more egregious example. The Panther at least had CASE. The Scorpion was just the PPC swap.
@@michaelrupp9288 It feels like no one really knew what to do with the Scorpion.
That Phoenix Hawk is toasty.
Good for use in arctic biomes.
All good picks. But how about the Catapult, whose 3050 TRO entry turned a reliable fire support 'Mech into an artillery piece that can only fire 5 times before trudging home?
"Let's put Arrow IV on it!" disease.
@@MechanicalFrog Scientist designing the Naga: "Hold my beer, freebirth."
@@EmeryCalame That's what Thunder LRMs are for...
The Catapult is kind of an interesting one, since unlike most other 3050 upgrades that are intended to be more or less "same but more" versions of the 3025 versions (though some, like the Panther, fail at that and are at best sidegrades), the Catapult completely changes its role into an artillery platform. Its lack of ammo is a serious limitation, but it's also the only artillery mech you have in 3050, and AFAIK the only Arrow IV platform outside Comstar at the time, so it still ends up being the best for its (highly specialized) role. I'm glad there is a later variant that gives it endp-steel and DHS to free tonnage to fix the ammo issue.
That was fun. I'm bad at "math-hammer" so not much to contribute, but would totally watch more!
Thanks!
Have to say I think I may disagree with your premise on this one. While I fully agree with the Panther, Rifleman and Pixie?
An "upgrade" means improved over the previous.
While the JM6-DD didn't truly fix a lot of issues, it is undeniably IMPROVED over the JM6-S. Also there were no UAC2s in TRO 3050 IS Mechs, they weren't available, yet.
The Hoplite, likewise, while still terrible? IS still improved. Thus is upgraded.
Also many of these are field upgrades to existing chassis, making Endo, CASE and XLs impossible in practical terms to add, and even DHS require a fair bit of work. On the factory new designs, I may consider these an actual flaw, though in the case of an XL, the added vulnerability mean it's not a free lunch, and while Endo is a "no brainer", the Inner Sphere as like a half dozen Orbital Foundries capable of manufacturing Endo-Steel. This means that in lore, the Inner Sphere manufacturers are ALWAYS working at a deficit for available endo-steel, thus in many cases, it wasn't really an option. CASE on the other hand? Should be mandatory on ANY new design packing ammo.
And example of a design that was made worse? HBK-5M Hunchback. It has a whopping 5 shots for it's AC20, instead of the 10 from the 4G, and it also really benefit very very little from carrying 13 DHS. Also dropping down to a simple 10 DHS would have freed up enough tonnage to double it's AC20 ammo, AND add JJs like the later Steiner 5S does. This is a factory new design, as evidenced by the CASE, so there really is little excuse.
I will also nominate 2 that aren't as "great" of upgrades as frequently thought. The SHD-5M Shadowhawk ends up with only 10 shots for it's UAC in double fire mode, and has un-CASEd streak ammo in it's CT. Likewise it has only 6 reloads for it's LRM20, meaning it has largely bad battlefield endurance, even if one ignores it's fragile XL engine (which I'm glad they did as it has the right flavor of not enough battlefield testing to understand the shortcomings). A simple shift of the SRM ammo out of the CT, and the use of an artemis equipped LRM15 leaves enough tonnage to double the payload on both the UAC5 and the LRM rack.
The we have the ENF-5D. Nearly flawless upgrade, better speed, ammo issue fixed, improved range. But then they keep the base 12 SHS. So simply firing it's ERLL uses ALL it's heat cap, without factoring in movement or other weapons. While the LB-X only adds 2 heat, that's still 2 too much, and jumping means you are running into penalties almost immediately. Obvious answer would be the have used 10 DHS, allowing an additional half ton of armor, an upgrade of the SL to an SPL and adding a single Medium Laser.
TBH, I feel there are very few mechs in TRO 3050 that I think can be called a "free lunch" true upgrade.
The VT-5M is one that comes to mind, as it makes the Vulcan more effective, while sacrificing nothing over the original. One can criticize the lack of CASE for the MG ammo, but since neither the older 2T/5T models had it? It's still an improved version.
Another is the WLF-2 Wolfhound, which made a super basic, but effective upgrade, simply by switching to DHS.
My poster child though is the CN9-D Centurion. While one could argue the lack of improved armor, it doesn't get worse, and the inclusion of the 300 XL also changes it's role dynamically, from a Trooper design (already covered for House Davion with the Enforcer) to a Cavalry Mech. And it excels at that.
The Hoplite was no longer in production and as such you can change weapons and heat sinks in the field...
The most frustrating thing about battletech is the lack of use of the latest tech. I upgrade every mech when I play and it got to the point where I had to make my data sheets. The lore holds the game back.
Sounds like you're going to like the IlClan stuff coming down the pipeline in the future.
The latest tech is usually very expensive, and since the Battletech universe runs on c-bills and not points or tonnage to buy mechs, compromises sometimes have to be made.
the rifleman AC changes always baffled me. also the jagermech doesnt use ultra AC2s, the inner sphere didnt have them at the time.
The shadow hawk benefitted hugely with 3050, going from a laughing stock to a vvery dangerous mobile fire support mech, i love it. a bunch of mechs switched to double heatsinks but then didnt drop excess heatsinks to do other things - the hunchback and quickdraw come to mind (the hoplites 'too many heatsinks' issue predates 3050)
Correct. I made a mistake in the transcription of the ACs... I was so used to adding the ultra that it made it onto the AC2s on that page.
@@MechanicalFrog on the topic of ACs, I kinda want to go back through all the TROs, and MekaMek, and replace the AC5s and 2s with LACs, and just headcanon that the LACs were the original ACs. FASA really badly balanced autocannons imo >_>
@@alyssinwilliams4570 Yeah they're often just not worth it.
What about the Shogun? An ER PPC to replace a regular PPC, but it still carries 17 regular heat sinks!!!
It was on the short list but BigRed just beat the crap out of it in a recent video so I didn't want to add insult to injury for any Shogun fans out there.
I'd like to point out that the original Rifleman did not have heat-problems in it's intended role. I used to think it's a bad mech until that one time we actually used it against fighters. When fighters attack battlemechs they couls only make a pass every 2 rounds. And that allowed the Rifleman to fire all it's weapons and then cool down on the round that the fighter needs to circle around for the next pass.
When you use it to fight other mechs it's truly bad, but it does work in it's intended role.
Fair point.
The Rifleman's arms flip due to lack of torso twisting range but in game it has the same firing arc for arms. I often thought firing one arm with the mounted ac5 and large laser at targets in the arm arc was how it was to be used in combat. A little heat for one arm firing and a lot of arcs to make it happen.
Excellent information thanks for the insight!
Hope it was fun.
Only one I disagree on is the Hoplite, because the upgrade does make the 'Mech better. Yes its not dramatically better, but its not like ER swaps without double heat sinks in that the benefits outweigh the costs.
For that one, I think the issue is that it easily could have been so much better and actually fixed a mech that has always struggled to be useful.
@@MechanicalFrog Absolutely, something like the 4B for an enhanced/sidegrade but FASA only came to that conclusion years later.
I would much rather have the Hoplite upgrade (it let's you carry solid shot and cluster rounds) than what happened to the Hunchback 5M. To add CASE they stripped out ammo, leaving 5 shots for the AC20! I would much rather drop heatsinks to keep the ammo (or increase it to 15 shots), add CASE, and upgrade that small to a medium laser. Also, fix the back armor.
Giving a big gun 1 ton of ammo is infuriating.
About everything with ppc to erppc . i had a first run 3050. the scorpion w/10 single was moved to erppc.
The Scorpion was on the short list but it felt a little bit like kicking puppy.
IS 3050 did not have access to UAC 2s, so I am not sure where you got that blackjack spec from. At least in the 90s IS in 3050 only had UAC 5s and LB10X as far as upgraded autocannons go.
It was a mistake on my part with the specs on the JagerMech.
@@MechanicalFrog no worries mate, we are only human. I was just concerned about retcons happening.
Wait - the Jagermech's AC/2s weren't Ultras, were they?
No. I made a mistake in the transcription.
I would add the enforcer to this list. With only 12 dingle heat sinks. To efective it needs double not single heat sinks.
Which is sad because the Enforcer is a cool design.
@@MechanicalFrog Agreed the enforcer is one of my faverite medium mechs.
Who needs Heat Sinks when you can have ER weaponry?
And remember, before they fixed it, the Blackjack BJ-2, had 11 single heatsinks for twin ER-Large Lasers. While it is "Fixed", it wasn't fixed for some time. And I love it.
Poor poor Blackjack...
I spent more than a little time back in the day trying to figure out how to use the BJ-2 (not to mention the OS-4D and the SCP-10 that have the same issue and got the same treatment) in a way that made them preferable to the original.
Also - You left out the Ostscout! It dropped the Medium Laser for TAG!
It dodged a bullet, this time.
The Ostscout gets a pass in my eyes because it at least gains the utility of being a hard-to-hit artillery spotter to use with your Arrow IV or Semi-Guided LRM platforms. Compare this to the original which was just a shittier Locust.
@@z3r0_35 Oh, as a conceptual chassis, i like the Ostscout. (It has a jump of 8??? Get me some of that!) But the TAG only works if you were able to set up your units in a certain way.
@@michaelrupp9288 The problem is that the cost of that jumping ability is that it doesn't have much to spare for weapons, so if you're limited to just one ton of equipment, might as well be something useful for the scouting role rather than a weapon you can't even protect yourself from INFANTRY with. Yes, infantry can kill an Ostscout, quite easily in fact. Maybe with additional weight-saving tech it could be more useful, but the canon variants just suck.
However, I have come up with custom loadouts that aren't complete trash. One starts with the SLDF royal variant (the OTT-7b), adds an XL engine, and uses the freed up weight to add a Guardian ECM suite, TAG, a pair of medium pulse lasers, and another half ton of armor, turning it into a really effective scout that can also do a bit of fighting if absolutely required to.
@@z3r0_35 Oh, yes. I love the concept. The execution is meh. (Although there were a couple of interesting Jihad era versions.)
The Quickdraw should have been on this list. The "upgrades" are pointless, especially given the stupidity of the One-Shot SRM4 launcher.
It was noted but didn't quite make the final 5. 😀
SRM OS is one of the worst designs in Battletech. Rockets please!
@@matthewmarek1467 *wooshing missile noises*
the Jagermech had normal AC2s not ultras
Good spot. I only make mistakes on days that end in Y.
The Hoplite... Is an upgrade from a upgrade kit.
They just upgraded the gun and added ammo.
It is one of the best 'upgrade kit" from the lore.
It does not make the mech good lol
well, the assassin wasn't great to beginn with, but somehow they still managed to downgrade it.
the awesome is also a downgrade, since it puts ammo in a mech that would work better without it!
I was considering the Awesome because of the ERPPCs... Toasty.
Blackjack-2 has 2 ER Large Lasers 4 streaks and single heatsinks...
That got retconned ages ago
Totally agree with #1. Singlehandedly ruined a great mech by 'upgrading' the main gun and basically nothing else
I suppose it could be happy that it at least got something?
Any mech using Artemis. Narc becon is clearly a better option. Put it on a light fast mech. Let everything else save that Artemis Tonnage for more ammo, armor, heat sinks or weapons!
Every problem can be solved with the proper application of LRMs.
@@MechanicalFrog true but having a ac20 on hand for those close encounters don't hurt either lol
@@allen5253 Hurts someone. 😆
@@MechanicalFrog never claimed I play nice lol
Hunchbach with Ultra AC/20 and only 1 ton of ammo. Panther is more justifiable as Combine don’t have many DHS at the time.
Oof, yes.
I'm going to throw Warhammer out there, technically better but a ton of wasted potential. 18 double Hs is excessive, and I have never been sold on IS ERPPCs I don't think the range bump justifies the heat at all.
I am not a huge fan of ERPPCs for the same reason you stated.
The refitted Hunchback is ridiculous
Over heatsinked and with only 5 shots for the AC-20 it's a bad, bad design.
Yeah any time you give a mech a big gun with almost no ammo, that feels like a suicide mission rather than an upgrade. The Goliath has the same issue, along with many others.
I think you have missed the truly terrible Grasshopper GHR-5J "upgrade".
This "upgrade" manages to reduce the effective firepower of the Mech and adding systems it doesn´t need.
It was on the short list.