Do Teams Need IGLs?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ส.ค. 2023
- They say that if you want to win, you need a great leader.
But one Valorant team recently kicked their in-game-leader and they’re looking better than ever.
So, we had to ask the obvious question: do esports teams actually need an IGL?
Written by: Niall McCrossan (@niallmccrossan)
Hosted by: Josh Bury (@thrown_gauntlet)
Edited by: Jason Durante (@JayJay_Durante)
Thumbnail by: William O'Keefe (@MagooMagoof)
Produced by: Alina Sotula (@ASotula), Connor Dunn (@connordunn_), and Danielle Rosen (@_DanielleRosen)
Footage credits: pastebin.com/ZS6n679Q
Music used under license from Associated Production Music LLC (”APM”).
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PRX is the exception, not the rule. They're a hive mind so it's not something every other team can replicate.
Agree, very rarely is there a team like PRX who have 5 players who are not only on the same page but also make consistently good mid round calls
Calling them hive mind is crazy
only prx has that 'something'
@@tsw9918then again I still want prx to have an IGL. This works now because the team is so synergic but when Jinggg goes to National Service next year they will have new people and an IGL will help to keep that synergy.
@@BrahmaDBACgrs gonna sub
it's not that they don't have IGL, it just that every prx player could be the IGL.
Having a singular IGL calling the shots with PRX playstyle actually messed up their tempo and util timings.
in NA playstyle you could use one IGL, in SG, you actually need two IGL, macro and micro. thanks to the tempo.
For PRX, f0rsaken is the macro IGL, the one that predicts the enemy strat and and pick which the strat and anti-strat.
Once the round started, the micro IGL takes over and sets up the timings for util and rotations.
PRX picks the micro IGL based on who has most experience for each map. For lotus it could be cgrs. For pearl, it could be something, For split, it could be d4v4i. For bind, f0rsaken sometimes takes both position or the macro is replaced with d4v4i or cgrs.
well said
Basically there's no dedicated IGL.
"Oh, this round's tempo rn isnt my forte, ima pass"
"Aight, let me just do it"
Thats so fantasy baton pass shiet and i love it
is that the f0rsaken that was cheating in csgo?
@@jqmethis is a south east asian team
This only works if the team has peak chemistry and not having a big ego.
You can see that PRX's chemistry with each other is really strong (they even refer to each other as brothers - big brother, little brother, etc.).
Furthermore, they're extremely mechanically gifted. Their playstyle is similar to Ranked play but with active communication, which is truly fascinating and sometimes even involves trolling.
Well, yeah, having no IGL can work, but remember, it doesn't always work. (That's why other teams still have an IGL) 😁
the PRX core of mindfreak, f0rsaken and d4v41 have been together for 3-4years ever since CSGO
they all having big ego is kind of part of them tbh except for mindfreak to balance out
Mindfreak is that sober friend who orders the uber home for is passing out friends.
Gotta arugue with the “brother” part. it’s just something we say to pretty much everyone who’s older than you. it’s an Asian/SEA thing. But yeah their chemistry is top notch
It works only for prx only because of their style. For such an aggressive team, you only need coordination between each other for supporting utility. A macro game really doesn't matter if your skye flashes you in and you just get your kills. With 3/5 of their team being such incredibly cracked aimers this is genuinely a viable strategy and a complete antithesis to somebody like drx who focus entirely on defined roles, insane utility combos and set plays. The only problem is when nobody is hitting their shots. Thats when we get to know if prx has a fatal flaw. A fundamental heavy team like drx or seangares 100t with have a much higher floor, but an agressive and dynamic team like prx has an infinitely high ceiling
As an addition, i think, as a team with very individually cracked players, you will end up farther if you let loose instead of drilling fundamentals. Lean into your strengths. If tenz zombs shahzam dapr and sick can click heads, play in a way where everyone can click heads. Thats a team who did not adapt to the meta and were left behind and igl'd themselves into a worse place
Do you see TheVai and BenKai play dualists?. Then you will change your mind.
No team can compare to PRX, I'm not saying they are the best team, but no team can do what PRX can. Since day 1 they have been pulling off things that any other team wouldn't even think of trying in an official tournament match, to a point where people said that they are just getting lucky or its just a fluke, but they proved all of that wrong by getting those results consistently. PRX is just PRX, thats just that 😂
What seems to people as "mindless aggression and luck" is actually just pure well polished teamwork and chemistry. Other teams just can't do what PRX does because they don't have that chemistry.
you don't always need a leader if they all understand what the end goal is. They know their weaknesses and strengths and support each other. This isn't "new", it's called teamwork.
you see, thats true for most of the game. In pro play, you cant get away with only teamplay. You need to strat and antistrat. Predict what the enemy will do, build your own strat around that. Teams need an igl, someone who focuses on that specifically, and not on getting kills. What Paper Rex have done is split up the role of the igl, where forsaken is there to see strats of the enemy, giving the strat through to the other players, which then, mostly d4v4i tbf, create their strategy of the round building forward, while everyone adds to the idea. Example: Forsaken reads a stack while theyre attacking a on defense haven, gives it through. D4v4i reads the stack, knows off of vods that garage is only held by util, they split c, while something adds to the strat going b up to a link catching rotates, on the fly. They are really good at those on the fly adaptations that enforce chaos on the enemy, as you cannot predict them, apart from when your name is fnatic.
@@DualityofLife so what is all that? Teamwork. You can definitely get away with it. Just because it's not the norm in CS, doesn't mean its rare. Other then eSports, lots of teams do it. Especially when the team doesn't have like a faker or Kobe Bryant to lead them. Everyone has to work together and many teams have to do that.
@@rjc_415 it like you didn't watch video. YES! This isn't something "new", the point is "it just isn't meta to operate team with only TEAMWORK' in big name team they usually do need IGL who can operate team like be a coach in the match
It's not that PRX have "no IGL" but more like "Everyone can be the IGL"
Ideally yes, for example I’ll IGL for my team especially during comp games, but I do think it depends on the chemistry between teammates, if I got fraggers that i 100% trust then I let them go crazy. But if a play needs to be made or to set up then I’d igl
Also on that point, alot of the times when you have 3 people who play with each other alot, there will be conflict still especially if theyre high testosterone.... Lul
One guys pushing or whatever and not listening to call outs....
And a IGLs voice will order them around properly because theyre not using their energy on hunting and killing, just team survivability
U can bring the argument of not needing a IGL but if u look at League's recent T1 without Faker, they were in literal shambles without the presence of him, he might not be that vocal but he brings inspiration to the team. You have teams like the former Optic and the current FNC in valorant where FNS and Boaster utilize their top level players correctly and position them well on the map and execute things well that wins tournaments
Every team needs a voice that is going to be more vocal than others, it doesn't have to be a designated igl but there's always going to be one leading voice
Prx?
@@theiceking7541 From what i read online all of PRX is an IGL. the macro IGL is Davai or forsaken, they are the one who set up strat and anti-strat but when the game start they let someone who has the most experience on said map call for rotate or util
@@ngnl_irisoulother than the voice ...the coach attributes add a lot specially the experience...so faker is just a goat at this point for him it's exception too just like prx doin right now 😂...but yea guys like Zeus are needed too so I do agree with you 😊
There's always outliers and like I said there's gonna be that one guy that is more vocal
From their vlogs and interviews, PRX seemed to be run like NaVi's CSGO team where the B1ade/alecks is top dog/project manager with the IGL as a loudspeaker/coach-in-game following concrete strats. Now, Alecks keeps emphasizing that everyone is a caller, everyone must have ideas. So I guess now it's really akin to C9's 2018 CSGO roster where auti, tarik, stew would call diff rounds, still following a stratbook of course. Could be good? Could be bad? Who knows. Just watched a battle of mediocre Danish IGLs a couple of hours ago. ChadHooxie.
Alecks be training 5 igls
Snappi and HooXi = mediocre xd
I think they are not mediocre. They are both elite Igl. Plus Hooxi's calls where pretty good. imo
Agreed. Hooxi gigachad
Hooxi > every Esport IGLs ever
A team that understands each other and a level this deep is hard to come by
Helps when you don't purge half the team whenever they don't perform well
i also believe they are unique in the sense that literally all 5 of their starting players are miles better than other teams mechanically, so much so that their coach told them not to focus on aim and to think more in game so they can function as a hive mind during the game and work together in the micro decision making
PRX being the exception is a huge reason why I want to see them win (that, and because this is going to be Jinggg’s last tournament with PRX, possibly ever). Their balls-to-the-wall play style makes them an absolutely joy to watch, and it would be so cool to see them lift an international trophy with the hive-mind approach that everyone else previously thought was impossible to win with.
wait where is jingg going?
❤
@@PaperRex what does that heart mean?? What does that heart mean 😭😭😭😭😭
@@mattfreak1206 national service. It's another reason why PRX has been preparing subs and train some other strats.
@@mattfreak1206 i think he going to military(im not sure)
(siege comp pov) in the most ideal scenario you get 5 players who can all shotcall and follow shotcalls which would give you INCREDIBLE flexibility in the early and mid round but there should always be a central voice to dictate an execute imo. realistically, with different personalities and some people being more vocal than others, a main igl can be instrumental in keeping everything coherent and on track. all players regardless should be able to shotcall though, but having a central hub of information and direction can smooth a lot out
Depends, some teams and games that allow hyper active coaching teams could actually have a negative effect from an igl if the coaches box is feeding you objective team data while your receiving other data from a single point on the map it can become contradictory but in other games where the coaches have limited resources or arent in their players ears 24/7 it can easily be more helpful to have a man on the ground so to say that can feed you information and strategies another argument for could be the igl can act as the voice of the coaches if the coaches are in everyone's ear it could be detrimental crowding the coms and blocking out game sound so if you use the igl as a filter to pass data from the coaches to the team when its necessary and not a hindrance as well as make spot decisions its probably when its the best
Listen to FNC's voice comms, Boaster is a consistently calm and collected voice of the team who makes sure the team are playing together
which is the opposite of PRX comfort zone, most of them are chaotic players
If u watch their mic check when benkai were on the roster u would realize that benkai rarely make calls and its always 5 man doing calls.
Yeah, Benkai has always been the passive shot caller with Davai second calling if he feels like the plays are not on point. Most of the midrounding are done by the team as a whole.
He doesn't hold everyone's hand but he does micro manages openings and things that the team may lose focus on.
Judging from the way T1 was playing without Faker the answer is yes lmao
Imagine thinking LoL is the same as Valorant. League needs IGL because of how tactical and strategy focused it is. You can win in Valorant easily if you click heads enough times. An IGL's impact is tremendous in LoL compared to Valorant
@@otherworldnemesisbro has NEVER played Valorant LMAO
@@otherworldnemesisme when I don't know things I talk about
@@otherworldnemesis bro is clueless
@@otherworldnemesis really? igl isn't a thing talked about in lol
I'll save you the time, yes.
Not just for strats, but mid round calling, managing team morale, and keeping people from throwing by over reaching, IGLs are needed to save players from themselves
No prx won without a igl because all of them can call
@@theiceking7541Exceptions always happen
It's not that PRX doesn't has IGL, their setup is what I dubbed as Macro-IGL and Micro-IGL setup. As the name suggest, Macro-IGL is responsible for team's macro play (e.g which strat or anti-strat to use, what weakness the current opponent has, the economics, and such) while Micro-IGL is responsible for team's micro play (e.g utility usage and timing, dictating the tempo of execute, and such)
I think in this case its a problem of generalization. Does a team, in general need an IGL? Yeah, probably. But it that system of communication is hampering a team, why cant they try something different that works better for them?
Imo aim/mechanic its not the only requirements to actually run no igl teams. PRX's core has been together for arround 2 years now, so they knew each other very well. So basically you need 5 Cracked player with hella good chemistry. Cant just 5 cracked player or just good chemistry
Pprx are what Sentinels want to be
In a nutshell yes. Someone needs to lead the team, having 5 players do as they please is how you likely lose every pro match you try playing unless the other team sucks. All aim no brain wins nothing, and brains always beats brawn.
Meanwhile I no brain and no aim😂
@@gladiatorgamer9502 bro has the aim of fns and brain of scream
just kidding about the fns one
Don't they have coaches for that?
@@hypnotico7051 a coach can't tell the team what to do while the game is ongoing, only in timeouts or before the match
it's different when virtually all of them are both brain and aim xD
"A cracked jett player"
*immediately shows a clip of him playing raze*
aleck's malding always fun its a goodluck that desk didnt break before champs😂
This seems to work with the chaos and fast pace they bring but if there’s actual structure then you need an igl. They break every “rule” your supposed to follow in a pro match (running through smoke, calling the same play over and over, and etc) they also trade a decent amount of the time or win most of the fights they take
Coming from cs and team fortress and overwatch and league this makes actually the most sense. for the most stuff you would need an igl for you dont actually need some in valorant. theres no point in one doing the calls and others just giving informations. when everyone knows each voice, position and the information contains to 85% why it matters. so they just add go or no and dont even bother about information that doesnt need another one to know. its how league teams have played from time to time.
Karmine Corp is the perfect example for a team without a proper IGL.
my guy really wanted to put KC on comment
@@Veemyyy Nothing wrong with that though.
Ayo give them a break man 😂
@@furediig5045 Nah, I want my boy Scream to win but he ain't for IGL.
"But he can still frag while IGL'ing 😃"
Something in their voice comms is the one trying to calm people down, telling people to not die because he understands the importance of staying alive to provide additional pressure to the opponents. Funny coming from the duelist that just hits W and kills everyone.
SEA servers have bred us for this. No comms, bad comms, everyone just randomly shouting, pure chaos.
Having 5 IGLs is still having an IGL
People who think prx play without direction or without a brain 🤡🤡
I like how a team from sg is breaking the meta of esports teams. Gd job prx.
Sea*
SEA
The thing with PRX, is that they did say that even when Benkai was in the team, Jinggg and f0rsaken was stated that they do calls aswell in mid rounds.
I HECKING LOVE PRX, PLS MAKE MORE PRX VIDEOS!
Is it possible to get a story on Beryl?? the dude made top 8 in his rookie year, made 3 world finals and somehow. Him and his team are still in the running for Worlds again... The dude never practices either and has so much accomplishment, Him being the first player to win worlds on 2 different teams with neither of them being named SKT
CSGO and other games like rsix is different because hyper aggressive playstyles can be punished probably because it is easier to punish it without entry fraggers not having an easy access to sites like jett dash, raze satchel and neon slides and utils cant be thrown through walls easily.
The people who decide what is seen on Valorant while watching streams do such a horrible job.
The pov camera angles are terrible and it feels like you're always watching from the wrong side of things and missing all the action.
something is gone but they forgot that forsaken was one of the best jett in the world
I really want to see drx and prx play again. It didn't help when by the time they incorporated something into the team, drx were burnt out and couldn't play to their full potential. If their match against loud is anything to go hy, this game would be much better
Firstly, PRX is an anomaly. Basically every successful e-sports team has had an amazing IGL.
Secondly, even without an official IGL, there's usually someone who calls the shots/makes tough decisions. It's human nature to have a hierarchy even if you don't realize it, most of the times there's a player who's words hold more weight than the others.
its been 10 months and they are still majorless, so I can say confortably, you need an IGL
In a different game but under the same Riot Umbrella. We have SKT T1. Their a living embodiment of an IGL being the difference
So, as an Eagle Scout, what I’ve noticed is that igl is kind of weird.
Having 1 leader makes sense, but having 1 person calling the shots doesn’t.
What it seems an igl mostly does in most games is keep the mentality up and positive no matter what.
I think that’s why it works so well with prx too, because they don’t really get effected too much. Yea they mald sometimes but overall they’re a bunch of dudes having fun, so the mindset is already there 24/7. From there all they need to do is do what they know.
The biggest difference is instead of 1 person saying “hey we should do this strat” they can talk it out amongst the 5 of them and figure it out.
I don’t think this will become the norm though just for the mentality. Esport pros in all games are most teenagers, I mean look at rocket league, every year it’s replaced by a new 15-16 yo. Yes they are pros, but they still have emotions, they have egos, they have feelings, and they mald.
It’s not like a physical sport or Olympic sport where they have been training for 20-30 years, so so often it’s a kid who started playing 3 years ago and is just cracked.
The mentality a player, or team have is such a major thing in esports. And is often why you see so many people talking about teams who are on a winning streak. So often they’ll talk about a streak as if it’s an advantage and it’s because it is, mentally they are going in with the best mindset you can have.m
and now we can have the long awaited matchup of something vs nobody
its not like they dont have in game leader but every one of them can lead their team and its working cuz they fully trust each other and know their ability to lead the game. so, they have in game LEADERS.
PRX has IGL... 5 IGLs.
It doesn't matter whether or not you NEED an igl. Hierarchies will always organically form within a group of people, that's just human nature, you can't get rid of it, especially in a competitive environment. There always needs to be someone who has a final say on a decision.
Except when you don't have that. Watch PRX's comms and you'll realize there is no hierarchy. They're all playing off each other without needing a specific call. PRX reached Champions level retaining 4/5 of their players from 3 years ago. And the core (Forsaken, Mindfreak, Davai) have played an extra 4 years in CS before that. When you have played for that long you develop chemistry without needing someone to be the office caller. Yes this is an exception and not the norm. Most of the times you DO need an IGL otherwise there will be no order.
@@silentKeys20 you explain this perfectly
IGL-less team remind me of Griffin from League of Legends back in Doran, Tarzan, Chovy, Viper, Lehends and cvMax era. The comms are very quiet, they are playing under a specific system and just vibe through every games and victory.
The merit is that it is almost impossible for opponents to find out your strat when there are 5 brains instead of 1 brain. But it is only worked if all 5 are mechanically-gifted and have the brain of IGL in map control, utility use, and transition.
great prx montage
A coordinated team doesn't need a leader. A uncoordinated team needs a leader
obviously in valorant everything goes hurr durr after the setup with skrillex music in the background and colorful bubbles all over your screen. so its much better to have another aim machine than someone that tries to control that chaos. i mean they cant even commentate fast enough to capture whats going on on screen at a site execute.
PRX called by their speciality in their map, but mostly Jason will lead along with d4vai if there is chaos in the comms.
"Do Teams Need IGLs?"
FaZe Clan under Niko went shit
theyre like raptors, travel in a pack, they dont have to have igl, they just want someone to start the fun like the initiators, if someone starts coming in and shoutcall, they'll become tamed caged beasts
In the past, coaches are literally playing RTS with 5 units on the map..
PRX is the highest tier of the SEA server experience. no strats, just frags and calls
If I play with someone I trust I do my best to let them carry
I hate that they're making my teams look foolish, but damn are they fun to watch.
Anyone here after Sentinels won VCT Madrid?
imagine sentinels do this
so they swap out marved or zekken for aspas and they would do this tactic with the brazil trio tenz and marved/zekken
PRX is so intertain to watch. Pasific Pride !
Most of the time it's not your everyday moments in games that the need for an NGL is apparent. Look at T1 without Faker vs T1 with Faker. All those teammates are high caliber players, but the thing that allows them to excel on a world stage is Faker's ability to always be consistent and unshaken. Yes a skilled player could make the calls he does, but he can do it under Game 5 worlds levels of pressure. Plenty of other teams exemplify this, but that is the best example I can think of.
I haven’t even watched the video yet. Yes. You do need a leader lol.
For most games yes
Davai seriously underrated
BattleBit hype!
Doesn't everyone make calls on what to do mid round? Atleast that's what the norm is in SEA region. When I play with my friends, doing calls doesn't always comes from one person. Sometimes calls from different person can throw the enemies off since they can't read it.
sometimes, having an IGL that teaches you every move you do takes you away from your best self in playing
i doubt that any team can replicate what prx has going for themselves
Any CSGO team without IGL would be instant tier 10 anywhere except d2, same as most "star" rosters. Valorant on the other hand is way more streamlined, both its maps and agents system, you can go about without IGL if you can realistically only have one or two sensible moves available
Title should be do you need IGLs in Valorant, good luck winning pro games without one in csgo lmfao
They sound like C9 in the LCS, hands diffing the home competition for their shortcomings. But when international events come around with comparable or superior skill, they get instantly blown out. Skill being equal, the team with an IGL will likely win most of the time.
It’s easy: I see PRX in the thumbnail, I click.
they have alecks raging at them to be their IGL
PRX be like IGL Ya We Have 5 of Them
Dang, theScore esports throwing shade on Benkai with the thumbnail.
nahh its the SEA blood in them, jokes asides, if u see Pacific gameplay in normal valorant it will always be chaotic, and igl is basically front man for us (the team face) cause everyone will be giving call outs soo kinda no such thing as igl, ya some team do need a proper igl but the majority of pacific players dont even need 1
even before benkai leave the roster they alreay implement that no main caller system. eveybody call
6:30 that's a familiar face
how prx works as a team is base on performance the type of team that can be no1 but also can be last place...
even without IGL they core is still there if 1-2 player out especially the duelist prx will struggle to find player it would take them alot of time to find replacement
Kobe and MJ just scratching their heads like, "WTF do you even mean?"
PRX be like, “Just tap their head bro”
if the game like valorant and csgo no IGL no problem but if the game like apex
you need one
because 1 simple skill placement mistake make a great cost for team
Here after PRX won Pacific GF with 5 player IGL
PRX is a one of a kind team
6:17 TenZ older brother
Inaugurable y'know 😅.
I love real energy. Stuff happens 😊.
Oh jojnqt🥹
No upload on the biggest esports tournament??? Evo
PRX is basically total football but make it valorant
This is the literal definition of 5head.
Is this real
PRX is special man.
Damn that Balla guy looks like a bootleg Machinegg
Prx itself is a weird team, they dont use the rule
1 brain vs 5 brain 'dead' lmaoo
nice video very pog
answering the title, yes, yes u do
prx juts happen to have 5 guys thats share a braincell