Is Racism Inherent to Western Civilisation? - Kehinde Andrews & Jeremy Black | Intelligence Squared
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- Join us in this excerpt from our 2021 debate 'Is The West Fundamentally Racist?', as Kehinde Andrews and Jeremy Black dive into the racial power structures that have shaped the history of the Western World. Leave your thoughts and opinions in the comments below!
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In group preference is completely normal around the World
There is as much racism throughout Asia. It's universally human.
Exactly.
In group preference is completely normal around the World.
Hmmmm. I would argue that "The West" are now the least racist Countries in the World.
Interesting he is talking about events hundreds of years ago...
I'm not saying these events should be sweeped the rug, or that because other places are more racist that it's not an issue.
I think he's extremely biased, and just views everything through a victim's lens.
The second Historian is far more well spoken. He's completely right that the first Historian ignores information that doesn't cater to his preconceived narratives; also he uses hyperboly and is "actively misleading".
It's fine we can disagree. Interesting video
Racism exists everywhere, *and* the only place with such self-flagellation about it is the Western countries. You never see this sort of thing in China or Japan, etc, which are very racist.
@@inkoftheworldthe scenarios are different but issues of racism and hate between Japanese and Chinese still exists.
No, racism is not inherent to Western Civilization. In-group preference is inherent to all groups of people.
French parliament session suspended after far-right MP humiliated a colleague of African descent
He says "You don't belong in France, you have to go back to the Africa where you came from."
This guy is considered from the political elite in the Legislative Council, how many politicians and the public agree with this mentality as well?
In group preference is established via violence and exploitation in many forms. It may be common but its certainly not normal. If you wish to normalize it you should maintain your level of indifference when the tables turn on you are you are no longer the in group…or you can accept that your “in group” dynamics is racism by another name and work towards building a society where that no longer exists. Demographics aren’t in the favor of those currently in the in group. Things will change and I’d like to see if they sing the same tune then.
@@Group.BWow, talk about missing the point. Are you aware of the “naturalistic fallacy?” The fact that something is embedded into us by nature _doesn’t mean it’s a good thing._
The OP was _clearly_ not saying in-group preference and out-group prejudice is something we ought to embrace or disregard. The point is we need to understand that this bias is part of the general human condition-not something invented or practiced exclusively by a certain group or groups.
If you lack a proper understanding of what causes a problem, you’re unlikely to successfully address the problem; you’re apt to make it worse, if anything.
@@seraeggobutterworth5247 OP was clearly attempting to downplay racism as something inherent and natural to humans when it’s not. It’s taught behavior. I didn’t miss OPs point and you can’t make their point for them.
@@Group.B If you think out-group hostility has to be taught, you obviously didn’t understand the point or, for that matter, basic cognitive psychology. Unfortunately, bigotry toward “the other” comes naturally to us, as it does for virtually all mammals. The good thing about humans is that we’re able to reflect on our own biases and negative behaviors and make an effort to overcome our more worst impulses.
NO
Racism is inherent to humanity and is rooted in simple tribalism. It is only natural to gravitate to those who are like us. Tribalism will never disappear, but our aim should be to eradicate ill will, abuse or harm between tribes.
Fundamentally untrue and lacks insight of world history
Tribalism has not much to do with race. Way too simplistic.
So many tribes in southern Morocco alone. Or Northern Morocco and many other places on earth. Same race many tribes. A lot of peace between them.
Maybe you should not close the unease of dissonance and be open to learning why especially the west is so prone to the most monstrous deeds against brown and black (superiority complex aka racism) in the most insane ways. From slavery to colonialism to wars and destablizing entire continents and even putting congolese people in Belgium zoos. And this is only a segment of the whole.
And then as a bonus, whyte europeans point at them till this day as if they are the savages. As if they are the dangerous people. As if black and brown is ruining their country and the idiotic people live to externalize without any oversight.
If you would clear your biases you would be disgusted by this.
@@Stoney-Jacksman I am most certainly disgusted by racism. That fact has nothing to do with my belief that it is rooted in tribalism. By no omeans does tribalism excuse any injustice.
@@KMHill I hear you. But giving it a simplistic reasoning called 'tribalism' is way too easy. In historical, socological, psychological context.
Its way more ugly , sheepish and individualistic even than this evolutionary overly simple 1 specific reason you give it. Like I tried to explain in a very short reply. I can see some traits of tribalism in some forms of racism. Doesnt make it THE reason behind it all.
Have a nice day. Its a weirld world. So much energy lost each day. Especially for the marginalised (including certain working class whites)
@@Stoney-Jacksman Same race many tribes depends on your definition of human race. Any division of humans into different races is subjective due to the simple fact that objectively there is only one human race. For example in South Africa most people consider there to be one white race but in my grandparent's and great grandparent's time there where two white races and one waged a savage and brutal war against the other. Many people described by others as a tribe describe themselves as a nation and consider themselves to be a race apart. Example some people speak of a Zulu tribe but most amaZulu identify as a nation with a clan system not a tribal system.
Well, if you go to Africa right now you can find all sorts of tribal, ethnic, clan, fighting. It’s layers of issues in Africa. People cling to groups. In the Middle East it’s also tribal/racist/ethnic/religious. In Afghanistan the U.S. spent $300,000,000 a DAY trying to change a tribal/ethnic nation into a democracy. The DAY they left…the Taliban took over! So before pointing at the western countries, look at the much older civilizations….. they all have racists/tribal/ethnic/religious/clan conflict. It’s always about groups.
PS. I met a Nigerian Uber driver a few months ago, and I asked him why he left Nigeria, he said he couldn’t get a job in Nigeria, because he was from an area where the people where discriminated against. He literally couldn’t get a job because of his families background. And he spoke 3 or 4 languages! He landed here because he could get a job here.
Considering that slavery has been practiced by Africans for at least the last 5000 years it is black people in the Caribbean who are being racist for suggesting Britain pays reparations. Britain's involvement in the enslavement of Africans is tiny compared to the involvement of Africans.
Black initiates his response by redefining Genocide,then dismisses the deaths by Small pox by ignoring the fact the slave and natives caught the desease from their captors, carving out a huge resource to the Genocide..!?
The first speaker needs to give evidence for his ludicrous claims. He just makes up stuff and sprinkles numbers around
The crux of this debate hinges on what one means by the term "inherent." Do we mean that western imperialism must be predicated on racism to thrive, or do we mean that this was historically the case? The former argues a rhetorical and theoretical point about all that western civilization can be, while the latter defines how western civilization thrived historically through empirical means. This is where I find both speakers to be the most interesting. (Black's point that the Enlightenment was all about cultural relativism is a bit specious as this relativity was completely understood within the context of European nationalisms and western imperial projects. Most Enlightenment thinkers did not assume the equality of world cultures, even as they respected certain elements from all cultures. The racism of many canonical Enlightenment thinkers is very well documented in several fields, from philosophy and anthropology to politics and the arts. It surprises me when folks try to argue against this.)
I find Kehinde Andrews' argument to be more persuasive, perhaps because it is more cogent as a conceptual argument. (Black argues mostly in the negative, i.e. 'that we need to be more conceptually nuanced to understand the past.') For Andrews, modern racism is structurally embedded within (or inherent to) the terms by which western capitalism gained power and socially and culturally defined its winners and losers. If one was defined as 'white', there was a higher chance that you would end up on top; if one was 'non-white', there was a higher chance that you were the victim of exploitation. (Look at the Supreme Court cases in the United States where Asian immigrants from India and the caucasus wanted themselves defined as white.) This condition is heavily supported by the new modern definitions of race and cultural difference that were invented past the 17th and 18th centuries, both in scientific and social terms, that were unique to this time period and indelibly embedded in power relations. (Sure, tribalism has always existed, but you didn't need a 'modern' definition of race to legitimize its claims in the past. Global history makes absolutely no sense if we don't use race and racism to understand international relations in western terms.)
That’s a long way to say “Yes”
What a load of rubbish.. people of nations who have dark skin have always revered , desired , white skin , light skin , long before white colonialists arrived or people arriving in USA in modern times .. you talk even more nonsense than those pushing this idiotic narrative.. all nations , Asian , Arabic , African , Nth , South America had have racist attitudes towards neighbours and worst is the ideology of Islam where Arabic language and culture reign supreme above all else and even the gods ONLY speaks Arabic and to understand gods word u must hear it in Arabic even u dint understand or learn Arabic ..
Is Kehinde Andrews fundamentally racist ? Yes ..he is
Racism exists everywhere however western countries during the past millenia have been more racist due to their history of subjugation, colonialism, imperialism and slavery on massive scale. In the US, the difference of being black and white when you are poor is more visible. The police treats you way worse. This is rarely a case when you are in Asia or africa. Maybe because they were homogeneous. Also individually and empirically I seen more racist in western countries than malaysia(only south east asian country I been to). Western countries are so plagued by racism that there are people who form extreme groups based on color of skin.
It’s simple, a more advanced civilization conquers a less advanced civilization
Had nothing to do with superiority. Guns. gunpowder. Europeans did not have superior minds.....only weapons.
guns
Africa was far more advanced and civilized than Europe.
Yes, it is, but so is every other part of the world. In all honesty, I'm extremely thankful for my homogeneous upbringing, and given the chance, I'd choose it all over again.
I can never thank you enough for the information that you have been sharing. You have really changed my perspective towards the way I think about how we as people of colour have believed to be true for such a long time. Thank you so much for this truth, I am so inspired by your research. We need more highly intelligent people of colour like you to speak up the truth. I am sincerely grateful.
I find it incredible that nobody thought to use slaves to do work before Europeans went to Africa. And it's good that all those non-western, non-racist countries pushed so hard to abolish slavery. Thankfully, we now have the luxury to discuss this ad nauseum because slavery has been completely expunged from the Earth now that the racist west isn't practising it any longer...
As a free thinking black man, I can see Prof. Andrew's reasoning would benefit from greater complexity. His theoretical perspective appears to be heavily influenced by the Marxist "Black Radical" ideology, which, while offering insights, also risks confining the black experience to a narrative of perpetual confussion. Conversely, Mr. Black admirably highlights the inconsistencies in Prof. Andrew's assertions regarding the purportedly racist foundations of Western Civilization. While I comprehend Prof. Andrew's perspective, I find it somewhat constrained and lacking in broader, transcendent appeal.
I can't do it any more. Any video where the speaker is being filmed in front of books, just forget it, they can't even understand that videoing oneself in front of books does not make one more intelligent, or more credible, it just makes them another stupid person who thinks it does. I'm done, any books I'm turning off.
Yes the bookshelf is a common mark of a pompous pseudo-intellectual.
Your rationalization goes along the lines of, "everybody does it, they've been doing it since forever, so I accept it and you might as well accept it too." It's like the mentality of an ignorant 12-year-old child that hasn't developed the ability to self-reflect, or to think critically, or to think at a deeper level.
The truth about RACISM is this:
Every single entity under the sun has descended from Consciousness (what many call "God," "Allah," "Jehovah"-etc) in one way or another. At the very inmost roots of our being, everyone is united in ONENESS.
Therefore, where do the differences lie?
They arise out of the development of species, genetics, conditioning, traditional teachings, customs and educational and family habits of relating with others and the differences in thought patterns.
It is not the color which divides people. A small child of every race and color because of his innocence and spontaneity of self-expression will find acceptance in the heart of most adults. It is the CONSCIOUSNESS which divides people and which is felt on every level of their being-for we are all, despite our materialized bodies, CONSCIOUSNESS FORMS expressing consciousness patterns and CONSCIOUSNESS FORMS receiving consciousness patterns from others.
The consciousness of each individual is their reality-not their skin or appearance-and it is the consciousness of people which either attracts or repulses others.
We can rest assured that racists will only transcend their sense of racial differences when their mental/emotional thought patterns are in sympathy, and when their VALUES by which they choose to live throughout their day, are the same. Until that time comes, it is useless for people to be angry with one another for experiencing racial differences. They are endemic to the human condition.
If you want to be accepted completely into another race, you have to change your values, your perceptions, your ideas, modes of living and of relating to others to match everyone else's in that race. Racial differences then die a natural death.
If you are NOT prepared to take on the "consciousness" of the race you wish to join, then acknowledge, accept and RESPECT with UNCONDITIONAL LOVE the differences in consciousness. No one has the right to demand you should ignore the differences.
MOST IMPORTANTLY OF ALL:
Choose the highest standards on offer in the world, work to embrace and use them-and then all skin colors will take on a new and inner beauty which none will be able to resist. All people will then willingly bond in perfect harmony.
Physical appearances of every color will also change and take on new inner beauty.
How is this guy still allowed on the airwaves? Talk about incitement.
Freedom of speech also includes protecting people who do not speak intelligently.
We live under a anti White regime now.
@@harkyoyes, but the anti White regime we live under now loves to platform him.
So you not agreeing with him means he shouldn’t be allowed to speak
It’s not incitement. This guy isn’t saying anything that plenty of other people haven’t already said or thought-the ideas are already out there.
Public discourse which includes many viewpoints is the best way for people to hear new ideas or counter arguments to their own ideas.
If you think this guy’s claims are flawed, construct a rebuttal and a clear articulation of your own ideas. Or find someone else who’s already done so, then figure out if you disagree with parts of their argument and how you would modify it to align with your own POV-or maybe your mind will be changed.
This is literally how we learn to think logically. If you never hear anything apart from ideas that comport with your own beliefs, you end up with a stunted capacity for rational thought.
....................................AM
Racism war homosexuality Alcoholism are European culture spread around the world
Nope they are and always were universal. The Egyptians brewed beer, had homosexuals amongst them, were arguably racist by seeing themselves as superior to their neighbours in Nubia and Kush which they had wars with as well as having Semitic slaves. Which continent did this take place?
United Nations Digital Library
A global call for concrete action for the elimination of racism, racial discrimination
, xenophobia and related intolerance and the
comprehensive implementation of and follow-up to the Durban Declaration and Programme of Action : resolution / adopted by the General Assembly Voting Summary
Yes: 106 | No: 14 | Abstentions: 44 | Non-Voting: 29 | Total voting membership: 193
The most important countries that refused to fight racial and ethnic discrimination
America
Britain
France
Canada
Germany
Australia
This is only a rational criticism if you believe the UN’s “prescription” to rid the world of racism is likely to be effective. This isn’t intended as a comment on whether the program was a good one-I don’t know much about its specifics-I’m just making the point that refusing to commit to the directive shouldn’t be assumed to mean that the countries in question don’t want to stamp out racism.
@@seraeggobutterworth5247 Try to think about the consequences of eliminating a social disease, who are the beneficiaries and who are the losers? Look at things in this angle.
This perspective can be applied to all kinds of human, political and economic diseases.
@@mohamedali2858 You need to take a step back and look at it from a broader perspective. Who’s defining what counts as a “social disease” in the first place? Why on earth would you want anyone to have the authority to do that? We’ve seen that play out multiple times throughout history; invariably it ends in genocide.
ETA: And it’s no good making the case that we can simply focus on fighting racism, which on its face is such an obvious problem to combat-because only horrible people would be against fighting racism, of course!
But before you can fight it someone needs to define it and identify exactly what behaviors and attitudes constitute racism and explain how exactly are we fighting it. And these are the points where things inevitably go off the rails.
@@seraeggobutterworth5247 People who stop the four-year American civil war where America suffered huge human and financial losses, And the people who abolition the slavery and apartheid
Do you mean that these people did not rid society of deadly diseases and crimes and that they need authority to do that work?
And from where did you come up with the idea When legislating laws that regulate, prohibit, criminalize and impose penalties on criminals and transgressors, there will be massacres.
If you want to define and how to fight, you have a wonderful and deterrent model. If there is sincerity in its implementation, racism will be almost completely eliminated👇
Criminalizing racism must take the same conditions as anti-Semitism
All kinds of discrimination and racism in all fields are rejected against the Jewish race. Can you deny that?
No, what a stupid question.
What is with the white slaves in the muslim states in the Mediterane
Doesn't the fact Kehinde can feature prominently on IQ² and other platforms of Western intellectual debate, and be respected for espousing his views, disprove his entire point?
And that is putting it mildly, considering the absolute ahistoric and truthless drivel Kehinde and his ilk are cluttering the intellectual ether with.
That is true, but then again he is regurgitating the usual critical race theory claptrap from the left.
Kehinde Andrews is a Pseudo-intellectual. He has no standing with the true intellectual giants that built the great civilisation that he so takes for granted. One of the most arrogant, conceited, pompous and myopic grifters on the Internet. What he is peddling is faux narrative from his faux studies of a faux academic field, and that's what makes him and others like him so dangerous.
How does Jeremy Black explain Brazil? The continental country in South America?? More black slaves brought there than anywhere in the TA slave trade. He points out Mexico but doesnt know about the black african descended people in Oxacha and Guerrero? LMAO....and tehre are afro peruvians as well. Hes very off intellectually
This black dude is full of conspiracies.
Let's compare these two cases, whichever is more racist.👇
I don’t want to miss a good chance to get a piece of great African cake”said 👇
Leopold II King Belgium.
Hitler and Nazism were killed about 6 million Jews, the world rose and did not sit.
While Belgian Leopold II killed more than 10 million Africans, especially in Congo and cut off the arms and feet of countless of them, statues of his glorification still exist throughout the country.
Yes, and Lopald II's empire was tiny compared the British empire, at one stage the sun never set on anyone who wasn't subjugated by Britain's perfection of Acquisition by Conquest., Divide and Rule and corruption.
This guy sees racism in everything .
Jeremy Black for the win!
You should ask if racism is inherent to the Catholic Church and Christianity in general. Columbus was there for the pope.
Christianity spread indigenously through out North Africa much earlier than the Spanish empire.
You should ask the same question about Islam which was spread by the sword and Hinduism where casteism and slavery still exist today.
Phrohet Muhammad pbuh said an Arab is not better than a black man or any man almighty god only looks at piety
150% yes yes yes to the core
As opposed to… which other culture(s)?
Ironic name.
No