Comment for mistakes and additional nuance. When it comes to apologies, many people think individual Dutch are being asked to apologise for the slave trade. This is not the case. It is the Dutch government apologising. As representatives of the state that has existed for hundreds of years. Portugal wasn't part of the yougov poll, so I unfortunately don't have data for that! At 02:40 I say the Netherlands was the first country to legalise abortion. This is false. It should have said, 'one of the first countries'.
While I agree that individual Dutch residents shouldn't have to apologize, and it should be more on large companies that had the most benefit of slavery, I, A Dutch citizen, will apologize anyway. (and yeah, I know this is not the platform for that, but if prompted, I will apologize again if need be.)
This might be a grey area which you are pointing out. It is true that individual Dutch people don't have to apologize. However, the Dutch government wanted to apologize by sending ministers to former colonies mainly Surinam and Carribean Islands. One minister who was a descendant of a slave he wanted to apologize for the Dutch government in Surinam. The people from Surinam and Surinam activists didn't want him to apologize because he was a descendant of a slave. They preferred a white minister apologizing. Therefore, he was not recognized as a representative of the Dutch government. This makes apologies very personal and less governmental.
@@Schurkie505Exactly, most regular people here were poor. Even had people living in mud huts in the east, what reason do their descendants have to apologise?
Just wanted to point something out, in English the decimals are written with a point and thousands are separated by commas. I know numbers are written differently in mainland Europe, but in English, one thousand dollars and 25 cents would be written as $1,000.25 and not $1.000,25.
I think it comes from the perspective the Dutch saw themselves as the under dog when it comes to the age of colonialism. Like fighting for your Independence from Spain (the superpower at the time) and being able to rival bigger powers greater than themselves such as England and France. While make a success of it. I think the fact you mentioned it as "cherry picking" the best bits is part of it because it's hard bitter pill to swallow. Many people rather be proud of something than be shameful it.
Good point regarding the Dutch viewing themselves as the underdog! As to the cherry picking, no doubt that this plays a role. However , I am also convinced that this cherry picking happens on the other side of the debate as well. Cause to me it feels strange that it appears that only the West is supposed to apologize for slavery. How do you look at the latter? Do you feel that other nations aught to apologize for slavery as well? If so, why or why not? ____ As to be proud instead of being shameful, on a national level I suspect it is also necessary to some degree. These days ideologies appears to want to divide us, putting us in different boxes. This I think is harmful because why would you care about a person in another box?.. well, there is this larger more important box called 'nationality', and inside that larger box we aught to treat people fairly as they are fellow citizens and that is how fellow citizens should treat each other.
It is also true that all sides are cherry picking, even this video has a lot of cherry picking. As many facts about Africa's part in (black) slave trade are rarely mentioned, how Europeans were enslaved in huge numbers in Africa and Asia, or how Europeans were the first to not only end slavery in their own countries, but also forced nations worldwide to do the same. Furthermore, there is not a country in the world that can truly be proud of their history, most can't even be proud of their present. You can be proud of a country and still acknowledge all that went wrong, which the vast majority does. Anyway, I truly believe we are heading in the right direction and lets hope that a generation sooner rather than later will finally be able to live together without worrying about the color of one's skin.
@@roelofjacobs5807you are right that other nations have bad history too, and history with slavery. But in all honesty, very little know about slavery in other parts of the world due to the recent history of western slavery and imperialism and most importantly, it’s scope and ideology. This channel already made a video addressing that. The scope of western slavery ( global ) and the ideology behind it ( that the others weren’t human ) truly put it in a class of its own , and that largely overshadows the history of slavery in other parts of the world , slavery committed by other groups and nations . That’s just it . There’s no doubt others did it , and at some point it should be addressed , but western slavery still has a bigger impact today than anything else and the ideology that drove it still persists.
@@fongangamassana6034 I think I disagree with you. I do agree with: When you argue that there is a link to thinking that people from Africa are lesser people and slavery, in the west this indeed happened. My suspicion as to how that came to be; in Western Europe slavery was frowned upon. The way to justify the buying and selling of slaves was done with some mental (racists) gymnastics. Some caveats to your position: 1) The idea that other people are lesser people, is not something typical Western. The link with racism and slavery might be typical Western, but neither racism nor slavery is. 2) To the best of my knowledge, the Arab slave trade was more gruesome than the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. It also involved roughly the same amount of Africans, albeit over a much longer period of time (know that the men were usually castrated). So I reject your notion that the Western slave trade overshadowed the rest.* 3) Know that "It are Christian dogs" was a way that Northern Africans justified putting people from Europe on galleys. This by the way was also a more gruesome form of slavery than the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. *Know that the British played a large role in dismantling this slave trade. Also, Europeans were still being made slave and sold in the Arab slave trade long after Europe and the United States abolished slavery.
@@roelofjacobs5807 I suspect the pressure is on the West due to many of the political and business entireties that benefitted from slavery. I can't name any Africans companies that got there start as slave traders. Not to mention the lack of a pan African identity during the time of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Even then I do think some of the academics is turning on that. Case in point the movie the Woman King got flack for portraying the African female warriors as freeing slaves when in reality they captured other African tribes to sell into slavery. Apparently when Lupita Nyong'o found this out while doing a documentary on the warriors she dropped out of Woman King.
Why wasn't Portugal included in the poll? That's odd, considering that country was one of the first, and last, European colonial powers to exist. And I would bet a million dollars that if the same poll was done on the Portuguese, up to 70% of the respondents would be "proud of their former colonial empire".
@@avantelvsitania3359 Portugal implemented a policy of forced labor upon Black Africans until the 1960s. This is way within the timeline where such practices were considered immoral worldwide.
@@robto yes, there were immoral practices, and those should be condemn, after careful analysis. But that doesn't mean we have to condemn our Empire as "intrinsically evil". That's not the way to look at things
The reason German colonial history isn't talked about much is because their colonial empire only really lasted 3 decades before their territories were seized during WW1. It was really the shortest lived colonial empire of any significant size.
I also want to add: In the german school system we talk excessively about the crimes of tha nazis. If there is any time left it is usually spend on the crimes of the communist eastern half. There is basically no time left in the german curriculum to talk about colonialism.
i imagine this is a topic that will be discussed more in the future where the nazi period is far enough behind that it wont have as much of a central focus in german history & education.
@@cosmosyn2514 I dont think so. The period of german colonozation was very short and limited. We do mention it in the history classes but we talk much more about other colonial empires. The system was the same in german colonies but the scale is just too small to really show all the effects of colonization. German colonozation is something that affected hundreds of thousands but WW2 and the holocaust affected tens of millions of people (all victims + soldier + civilians) and WW2 shaped the way the modern world works today. Its much more relevant.
My grandmother who died a few weeks ago at 99 was born and spend her childhood while Indonesia was still a Dutch colony. It is all not that long ago as a lot of people think.
I watched a video and somewhere in Africa they are still widely using a road the Germans built over a hundred years ago. The present day occupiers of that nation should be grateful The Germans colonized the area so they could have a road. Same for most places that were ever colonized. South Africa is no exception, it was the most heavily colonized area, and was the most developed part of Africa. Until the end of Apartheid South Africa was a developing nation, unfortunately now it is an undeveloped nation. Although it still is the most developed in Africa.
"The highest number off ALL european colonial empires" Portugal after starting the discovery age, ruling the indic ocean and defeating the otomans various times but still not apearing in the map: bruhh
@@iattacku2773 Does it have to be overseas to be colonialism and slavery? Slave trade is a part of every empire in history. I find it absurd that the west is almost solely getting the blame for slavery when we were one of the only regions that stopped practicing it.
@@timobrenn we forget one thing: we abolished slavery in the 1800s but not even 10 years later we colonized Africa. So i wouldn't be proudly saying "we abolished slavery thus we're good" or something like that.
@@I_hu85ghjo I'm not saying the west hasnt done bad things or hasn't been hypocritical at points. However i think being the only real region abolishing those acts should not be completely disregarded. it might not have been good but it is definitely alot better than not abolishing slavery. (if there were other larger regions that did the same i'd love to know about them btw)
9:30 I love how addressing the value Dutch people hold for the remembrance of WW2 helped remembrance of slavery and colonialism hit home for the prime minister. Sometimes there is a clear truth that is hard for people to acknowledge, but using good parallels in the things they already find important can help bring them into that place of effective sympathy. Excellent work by that spokeswoman there!
@@urhunn7778 No, it wasn't, the few jewish people involved are not enough to magically outweigh the european christian majority they were surrounded by. cute attempt to redirect blame onto europe's favorite scapegoat group though, I'm sure you've at least fooled yourself!
Don't let it fool you. This is the only non-racist thing she has ever said. She was the only seat her BIJ1 had and their only views are racist claims like ''black people are by percentage less often police agents so when sollicitating they must be priorised above white men'' and that kind of shit. She never had real arguments, could only talk about skin colour and when a member of her party supported ''Kill the Boer'' (South-African movement to kill white South-Africans) she did not openly distantiate or something. Biggest racist in our parliament in many many years.
@@Larsino2000 Interesting. Considering the fact Dutch established class-system in their own colonies in the Indies, with First-class citizens were Europeans, the Chinese and Arabs became second-class, while indigenous were third class.
@@Airmee If you are trying to compare a fairly typical colonial class system to Apartheid, as you seem to want to imply without actually saying it, then that is a comparison that will not go very far.
@@Airmee Nelson Mandela said thanks to the Netherlands for their support against apartheid that should should be enough. Our dutch decendent settlers caused Apartheid that's very true as well! There is no denying that fact. And we were one of the first countries that helped the ANC to get rid of it. We still till today have colonies but those colonies where all given the choice if they wanted to stay with us, became semi independed own government and currency own police and soldiers but the Netherlands still responsible for governmental issues , or break away and go independent. If one of them no longer wants to be part of us they only have to ask and have a referandum for it.
As a Dutch person, I think when people celebrate the Golden Age and talk about the VOC mentality they are not specifically talking about slavery. But rather about the trading, the conquest and the go-getter mentality. I dont know much about mongolia but they probably are very proud of Genghis Khan even though he did a lot of bad stuff. Or the Greeks with Alexander the Great. This is just my thought on this, if anyone has a different perspective I'm open to hear about it
As another Dutch person. And Dutch people like to dismiss black and brown peoples experiences and the bad parts of the VOC history. They only pay attention to the money and not where the money came from. I've got plenty of experiences with people overt and hidden racism. And it's still current unfortunately.
Little fact for you, dutch slavery started at the end of what is commonly considered the golden age. I think it's more appropriate to say that the dutch went the route of slavery to make up for the dissapearing wealth and power that came with the century long downfall of the dutch empire after the period of fortune ended. in short, the golden age, the VOC and the country itself weren't founded on slavery, but turned towards it in a time of moral weakness, to eventually realize the error of their ways and ban it.
Genghis Khan has his own holiday, so I don't know that they do have any issue with what he did. But it's understandable for them to celebrate Mongolian success. The Dutch however can't do such things because they are wealthy or something.
@@DrTheRich Ik heb het niet alleen over de slavenhandel, maar ook over de kolonisatie en het verleden in het algemeen. De regering (en dus de vertegenwoordigers van de huidige en verleden staat) hebben jarenlang gezegd dat excuses niet hoeft. En dat gaf natuurlijk het signaal af aan iedereen (en de Nederlandse bevolking) dat zwarte piet als slaven afbeelden goed en normaal was. Dat is waar het om gaat. Gelukkig komt daar de laatste jaren verandering in, maar het heeft wel heeel lang geduurt voor een land dat zich als tolerant probeert te presenteren. Het is niet alleen het verleden, maar juist de effecten ervan. Maar we zijn in ieder geval op het juiste pad.
@@DrTheRich “moral weakness” the only moral weakness I see is nowadays, with mental health crisis, and the pretend victimhood. Men acting like females and women acting like males. That is moral weakness, bUt wE hAvE To AccEPt tHEm FoR wHO tHeY ARe.
@@SamWeiss-z3u Eh, I've seen protests of disenfranchised minorities in America in the 60's complaining that money on the space race was wasted and not funnelled to welfare, thus letting their children starve. Anything can be spun into a guilt trip narrative if you try hard enough.
why are people (white ethno nationalists, lets be real here) upset about an apology? they are just acknowledging their past mistakes and asking for forgiveness, its not like the Dutch are being asked to bend over backwards and completely submit to their former subjects. it's not shameful to own up to your people's evil of the past.
Because there is nothing to forgive and nothing to apologise. This is how the worlds use to function. I don't see any Arabs apologising for the white slave trade (or the black slave trade for that matter). I am from Greece, should i demand apologies from the Turks when they defeated us in the 1400s and occupied us? The answer is no, in the past 'conqueror's right' was a thing. It is stupid simple. Dutch People don't owe an apology to anyone.
Because we have done nothing wrong, and its a betrayal to our ancestors achievements and glory. We wont take a knee for these peoples that lost against us and hate us. Winners never say sorry.
I will REPOST my DELETED comment: Because there is nothing to forgive and nothing to apologise. This is how the worlds use to function. I don't see any Arabs apologising for the white slave trade (or the black slave trade for that matter). I am from Greece, should i demand apologies from the Turks when they defeated us in the 1400s and occupied us? The answer is no, in the past 'conqueror's right' was a thing. It is stupid simple. Dutch People don't owe an apology to anyone.
Super interesting video, but just a correction: the Netherlands weren't the first to legalise abortion. The Soviet Union legalised it as early as 1920. This was later reversed by Stalin, but it began legal again in the 1950s. This was still far earlier than in the Netherlands, where it was more or less tolerated (gedoogd) from the late 1960s onwards and officially legalised in 1984. The 1970s saw other countries such as Denmark, West Germany and France legalising it as well. So no, the Netherlands weren't the first!
They didn't only legalize it, they promoted it as the prefered form of birth control. Soviet women often had five to ten abortions in their life or even more. Stalin only stopped this policy for some years, because he needed higher birth rates to fill the ranks of the Red Army.
In Spain, abortion for any cause until the 12th week was legalized in Catalonia (1936) and the rest of the Second Spanish Republic territory (1937) during the Spanish Civil War. It didn't last much though, as when Franco won the war, abortion became illegal again. It wasn't until well into Franco's death and the restoration of democracy when it was legalized again (1985), but even then the law only permitted abortion in very specific circumstances. It wouldn't be until 2010 when we would have a regulation regarding abortion as progressive as the one from the Second Spanish Republic.
Wow,l wouldnt really know this😳 İt is very interesting for me.but l asked you: "Why?" Why at first time ussr and socialist government in spain tried to doing this? What was cause?"
@@arazatliyev6564 I mean, socialist and communist governments have always been more keen to socially progressive ideas and protection to minorities and traditionally marginalized groups, specially when it comes to women rights. The Second Spanish Republic approved the abortion law thanks to Federica Montseny, Health Minister back then that pushed for it, and the first woman to become a minister of any government in western Europe. The Spanish Republic had other women in top governmen positions, like Victoria Kent, who was Director General of Prisons during the 1930s, and pushed for a massive reform of the prison system to make it more ethical and humane. Other important socially progressive reforms took place during those years, like the decriminalization of homosexualiy, or the transformation of the catholic, gender-segregated education system into a secular, gender-mixed system, and much more. Again, that was during socialist governments, and when Franco came imto power all the policies where reversed to the old, traditional and conservative ones again. It wouldn't be until the end of Franco's regime when Spain would have other women in a top-positions in the government and again those iniciatives for progressive policies.
As a black Jamaican-American, I think it's important to learn about the past, but quite stupid to expect present day Whites to apologize to me, or anyone else for that matter, for the actions of their ancestors. I'm no more a victim of slavery than they are perpetrators of slavery. The only persons owed an apology are the actual victims that suffered, and since they've been dead for centuries, making a big public apology spectacle is nothing more than a silly and futile exercise in virtue signaling. I am not a victim, I am not oppressed and I'm not aware of any advantages, rights and privileges white people have that I do not likewise enjoy. The best possible reparation is not cash, but equality. We need to stop wasting time weeping about the past and just get on with life. Be the best, be the most brilliant and be most accomplished person you can be - that's the true legacy of our ancestors.
Mate, you may have black skin, but you are a white colonialist if you think that intergenerational trauma doesn't exist and that countries like the Netherlands are not privileged as a result of slavery. If you suffer in any way because of the slavery of your ancestors or have less advantages in America, the fact is you are still the victim, regardless of whether you accept this fact. The first step in decolonising is telling the truth.
As an Indonesian, most of or frankly all of the apologies from the Dutch are about the War Crimes they've committed trying to retake and stabilize Indonesia after Japanese Surrender and won't take a formal Independence as an answer. While that was bad, we're chill now, the Colonial days may be bad but the actions known as "Agresi Militer" (Military Aggression) was frankly more brutal.
This could potentially change with our new government after this years elections. We have had the same prime minister (Mark Rutte) for the last 13 years. His father and mother are Indisch (Orang Indo, Indo European). His father had been in a Japanese camp during WW2 (interestingly losing his first wife there, and his mother is the younger sister of the first wife). So it is a very personal topic to him. I personally believe therefore apologies were first made to Indonesia instead of to Suriname, and also why its mostly focussed on the moment after WW2. It could also be because most Indonesian and Indo descendants in the Netherlands left Indonesia after the Agresi Militer and fought on the Dutch side, so its very important for them because they left the country because of it. So there are a lot of personal reasons for the one sided apology, but I notice people start to also focus more on the colonial past in Indonesia after this focus on Suriname. Maybe with a new PM the apologies for the colonial past will be made.
@@blue.berry.hahaha no, there is nothing to apologize for? The people that currently live in Surinam have not suffered and at the same time are opressing en population of the land...
@@teaser6089 I'm not saying that individuals should apologise to other individuals. But our government should definitely apologise to the former colony countries. Its not about the present day population, but acknowledging that what a former government did was wrong and as the new government you will learn from those mistakes and make sure it wont happen again. Just ignoring what happened makes it seem like you approve, while apologies show that you disapprove. It is bad for the relationship, and we share a lot of history and culture with these countries. We are stronger as friends, than as enemies.
I think there are two other historical factors that make the Dutch view on colonialism and slavery different: - Slavery was officially outlawed in The Netherlands itself, meaning people were not allowed to hold slaves in the country. It still happened on occasion, but most slavery happened in the colonies themselves or by exporting to other countries, like the American continent. This made it far less visible to the average Dutch citizen of the time and reflects in how that period of Dutch history is written. - Despite the above, eventually the poor treatment of slaves reached the country and citizens were distraught about this. Eventually due to public pressure things like basic education was introduced to the colonies and limited forms of upward mobility were introduced for the slaves. This lead to this false sense of being "benevolent overlords" that permeated into the history books. I remember myself that this was a significant portion in the school history books. While the segments about the horrible massacres that occurred to take the colonies in the first place were brief, for example. As for the hesitation to make an official apology: Many feared this would open The Netherlands up to lawsuits or reparation payments. This made both officials and sections of the public hesitant about offering an official apology, especially since the economy isn't doing so hot for a few years now. This was an the argument I heard often whenever this topic was talked about. Most Dutch people won't deny that slavery was bad and a dark chapter of our history. However offering an apology makes them feel like it was their fault personally. It gets really murky with the whole debate on how much current generations profited from the slavery of the past. So it's not simply dismissed as "We had nothing to do with it." yet it's also not like current generations of ex-slaves are directly accusing them. It adds to this struggle between "It wasn't me who committed slavery, it was my ancestors choice." and "I want them to recognise the damage they caused to us and our ancestors". Hopefully recent efforts will allow people to give it a proper place in history, culture, etc.
Yeah, the creator seemed to have missed a few things here and I’m glad that you pointed them out. Everyone here learns about the horrors of Dutch colonialism and slavery. Not since “the past few years” but more like the past few decades. We aren’t proud of slavery and colonialism in and of itself, and it sucks that museums nowadays falsely claim that these were the main two factors that made the Dutch Republic rich. But the sudden demand for an apology indeed made us feel like we were accused of being responsible for what a couple of tens of thousands of people did in the past (so not even “our” ancestors in most cases). This lead to kneejerk reactions on both sides of the matter, which lead to missing the point of indeed _recognizing_ the full story. Within the school system they’re on their way to nuance our heroes of old; people like Michiel de Ruyter. I don’t think if I agree with it, but I think it’s good that instead of destroying statues, we instead add the rest of the story and context to the person. For example, Michiel de Ruyter was a hero in our eyes because he stopped an English- French invasion in 1672 and furthermore helped us keep our trading position on the seas. But he also defended slave ships off the coast of Ghana if I’m right. The children are hereby allowed to form their own opinion about him, instead of getting told what to think. It’s a shame that they don’t really do this in our museums and very rarely in tv documentaries.
This was the case for most of the European slave trading nations. Slavery was outlawed in the country, so the colonies counted as different countries with different laws, which included the otherwise illegal practice of slavery.
Just wanted to add that slavery in the Netherlands itself was forbidden by law for Christians. So interestingly when a slave would be brought from the WIC or VOC, they hacked the system by baptising in secret to free themselves. So slavery was not completely forbidden in NL, but in practice it wasn’t really done because of this hack.
If we have to apologize for our slavery, northern Africa has to apologize for their slavery of millions of White Christians that they enslaved during the last 2000 years...
I'm surinamese myself, born and raised in the netherlands. I used to be a very proud dutch guy. I still am, but for different reasons. I remember not understanding why people should apologize for a past they didn't play a part in. I still have family in surinam after covid decided to visit them every year. I've been to a few plantains with family. Hearing the stories of how horribly they were treated, literally subhuman, made me realize. Everybody born in the netherlands, is incredibly lucky, including me. We're born rich. We're living in a rich country, built on the backs of history. And that history is colonialism. We have the ability to get educated, get treatment for health problems, get money if we're struggling, have access to clean food and water, all because of our past. And seeing what this past looked like, seeing the eerie plantains, pictures, the blood, the deafening silence, knowing what happened here. And then looking at the dutch families, laughing, well dressed. And then going back to the netherlands, walking through the luxurious Schiphol Airport, back to my comfy house, made me realize that we're still all profiting daily from this past. We take it for granted, we didnt choose to be born here. But that doesnt change the fact that we are profiting while others are suffering. Not because our race or culture is better, it's because we destroyed others and prevented them from developping.
Slavery is still not over and we all profit 🤷♂️. African child labour/ Chinese factories/ Lower paid foreigners in The Netherlands itself. We say we ended slavery but we still finance countries where slavery is still a normal thing, it’s all about the money🤷♂️
@@wintutorials2282 in dubai atleast they get paid 10x what they wouldve been paid in their original country and the working conditions are miles better
@@notpillow6759 hmm i dont know about that. I know the working conditions are far worse, that's a fact. But besides that; Passports taken away, a lot of deaths, most undocumented. And most people regret it.
@@wintutorials2282 bro have you even seen the conditions in India? People are running from poverty, corruption, and exploitation to get to Dubai because, guess what, it’s a hundred times better than the hellhole they’re leaving behind. They’re getting paid way more and actually have a shot at supporting their families.
I'm from Portugal and we should just own up to what we did in the past. You can show pride towards your countries achievements, but the darker parts of history shouldn't be ignored or repressed. Propaganda already did a number on us in the past, and we can't let that happen again.
É isso, muito mais honesto. Os colonizados só querem respeito e reconhecimento. É justo as pessoas tirarem foto da Torre Eiffel e sequer saberem quanto sangue haitiano custou ela? O que a frança e os EUA fizeram com Haiti e a Bèlgica com o Congo, foi genocídio.
and it is going to happen again. as every year goes by, your country will become more African just like it did in al andalus. by 2060, u will be the minority in ur country and ur country will be majority Angolan and moroccan. as it was In the 1400s
@@themongol1263 i don't remember to buy portuguese people, so we're are comparing a way different thing. One thing is the legit war, another is genocide and slavery. Which already was abolished in europe.
1:00 to be fair. That wasn't much of a pro-colonial statement in the context of the full debate at all. He was more so using the VOC as an example for out of the box thinking and taking risks. Was it insensitive? Maybe. (You can hear a large part booing against that statement a moment after he said that, which was cut from the video.) But I feel like it's a tad misleading to couple that quote with the message of the video. Otherwise fantastic video. Your production quality is really, really high.
True, Balkenende was referring to the entrepreneurial spirit of the VOC and how the Netherlands should economically be more confident. But this view is indicative of how ignorant the Dutch are about the VOC and that there's a blind spot when it comes to the knowledge about how the wealth was only possible by the subjugation of people.
@@kykale indeed a demonstration of ignorance, which is lamentable. but not a demonstration of imperialist sentiment, which is abominable. an important distinction to make, when you are making sweeping statements regarding an entire country
@@JABN97 It was not ignorance. The man studied history, so he was absolutely aware of the negative history of the organisation. At that time this wasn't of any concert to the public at large and the PM knew this. That is why he could make this statement and be celebrated for it as well.
Why is it always about "Europeans should apologize for slavery"? In that case, most of the Muslim world should apologize to basically entirety of Europe for it's slave trade and conquest.
@@SuperAymanDx they are forced european woman to be sex slaves, they also forced european men to be row slaves for the rest of their lives, they also castrated balkan children and forced them to be soldiers
Great video and appreciating your approach. As Austrian, the WW2 victimhood narrative sounds very familiar. In Austria it is utilized a lot to not speak about Austrias own collaborators’role while completely ignoring the Binnenkolonialismus of the Austrian and Habsburg Lands. Binnenkolonialismus loosely translates as internal colonialisms and refers to Austrian colonialization of Eastern Europe. Unfortunately, Binnenkolonialismus is neither framed as negative nor addressed sufficiently in schools or public.
The Austrian monarchs in Mexico were great almost tho, Von Humboldt was a collector of ancient mexijka artifacts and I think the descendant of Motekujzoma the last mexijka king lives in Austria
Well, that's because Binnenkolonialismus is more of a terminus technicus coming from Medieval Studies (and I think you actually refer to the Habsburgian Landesausbau) and it's not quite comparable to modern colonialism (we also normally don't frame Greek or Phoenician colonization as "bad"). That has two reasons: First of all, Binnenkolonisation does mean a lot of things, it can adress enlisting Saxons to move to Transilvania as well as settling 5 kilometers upstream and clearing the thick forest there. The modes are very different and heterogenous. Secondly, we discuss colonialism as a phenomenon resulting in todays inequality between global spheres and peoples and the many lasting problems of colonized and marginalized groups. Without such people, it's pointless to frame it negative. We don't collectively frown upon the disappearance of the Old Prussians (through assimilation or genocide), because no plaintiff no judge.
@@Continental27995 thanks for this elaborate explanation. I was not aware that “clearance of thick forest” can mean Binnenkolonialismus too. So would the allocation of lands, e g HREmperor assigning a border land to a vassal, count as Binnenkolonialismus? We went through the word in Austrian history at university in regards to post-Napoleonic conquests in Eastern Europe. Though, -now stretching a bit far here, and thinking out loud here- we could think of the economical inequalities that exist between Binnencolonies and their centers. For example austrian banks or petro-agri companies owning large market shares in former lands?
You seem to completely forget the largest of the slave trading nations, the Ottoman Empire, in the modern day Turkey, in that list of slave trading nations. It transported almost as many slaves as every other nation on that list combined, and is still completely proud of that fact and history.
Being proud of an empire isn't the same as supporting it. I personally think it's impressive That Great Britain, a small island nation, managed to take control of half the planet. That, however, isn't to say that I think it's a good thing that it happened. That can't be too difficult to understand. Another thing - the apology. It's no use making young people say sorry for things their ancestors did. If anything it's insulting and come across as insincere as they didn't commit the deeds themselves. Imagine asking African people if they feel guilty about Africans enslaving Africans first and then selling them to Europeans, they would all say no.
As Indonesian i appreciate the acknowledgment of our shared history. With the recent acknowledgment of Indonesian independent in 1945 instead of 1947, i hope it will open reconcilation of the victim of dutch invasion of Indonesia during the independence war. This definitely a great move to move forward as society
@@rexglucksburg yep there is no need, that is why we are moving forward and fight for better things with our own feet and hands, regardless of outside help, we Indonesian never embrace the slave and victim mentality. Be proud of that.
@@SpoonfedPig War crimes were committed by all parties. It was a different time. I had numerous discussions about this with especially my (rather racist) father when I was young. The older generation (pre war) pointed to the war crimes committed by the Indonesians as a legitimation of the invasion. My point was that that was not the point. It was colonialism. Then the reply came that the Dutch were needed to rebuild Indonesia. I then said that was besides the point. The Dutch wanted to earn money there over the backs of Indonesians. And so it went on and on and on.
Dutch elites: We are sorry for our past and we shall make sure such horrors will never happen again. Dutch citizens: We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when. 🎵
Thank you for bringing light to this dark history. I do have one remark though. The title of this video claims 50% of the Dutch people support colonialism, but the research you show asks a different question. Should the Dutch government apologise for the role in the slave trade? I don't know if you did this to create a clickbait title but it at the very least disingenuous. I very much doubt even a tiny percentage of the Dutch people actively support colonialism.
You can tell this is a radical left youtuber. Rushing to conclusions as you mention, but also taking quotes of context. This is a person who is partially responsible for polarization.
The relationship between the dutch and the English in South Africa is interesting because both colonies did not like each other. You should do a video of South Africa
Also the Dutch in South Africa are more racist than the English. But I don't think we can deduct anything from that because the Rhodesians, who were British, were also super racist.
@@chesterdonnelly1212 maybe you are forgetting the netherlands only controlled the territory of the cape, The netherlands lost the colony the the english. the english expanded it. Also the "dutch" you are talking about is south africa dont have a connection to the netherlands for over 200 years and dont even speak the dutch language. So how is the netherlands to blaim for them?
@@Felixdeaap I don't blame the Netherlands for them. The Dutchmen of South Africa are their own ethnic group. Their connection to the Netherlands is through the VOC hundreds of years ago.
@@Felixdeaap no problem. I'm talking about different white ethnic groups in Southern Africa. But worse than the Afrikaans Boers was the Germans of Namibia. They were full out genocidal. Of course things are much better now.
As far as I could see the 50% was not about being proud about the colonial empire, just the empire in general. Maps like the one you showed at the start are tricky to interpret because getting data with a vague question will net you with vague answers. There is a good chance that Dutch respondents might've equated the Dutch Golden Age with the Empire and therefore think of the Moedernegotie in the northern european trade as something to be proud of, and think of colonialism as a sideshow in that era. The questionnaire also does not elaborate on what era they talk about. Let me say this first: I am not a historian so I might be wrong in my reasoning, but I think it would be better to make it clear whether the questionaire aims at 1600-1750 or at 1880-1945 for example because you might get very different results. I say this because I am Dutch too and I can see this easily being misinterpreted.
Most Dutch people, as most people in the world, know very little about their history, it's just not very interesting to them, and can't blame them. But it makes it easy for activists to plant the lie that the Golden Age was build on slavery. While the fact is (and you can research this) the first slave ships started sailing near the end of the period commonly considered the golden age. And slavery was becoming a successful enterprise half a century after the collapse of that period. Heck, until 1667 Suriname wasn't even a Dutch colony, it was a British one. And it's funny that on his map he shows Manhattan and Suriname to be a colony at the same time. While they were exchanged for each other, so that never happened.
Tbf, most of us equate the Golden Age with the VOC, so I'm pretty sure in most people's minds colonialism must've at least come up when thinking of an answer.
Heel belangrijke uitleg. Toch is er een verschil tussen koloniale trots, en acceptatie van slavernijverleden. De trots begrijp ik, in het lesmateriaal uit mijn tijd op basis- en middelbareschool ging vooral over de goede momenten, slavernij en de effecten ervan zouden daarin meer plek mogen krijgen. Er mag best laten zien worden dat voor al het moois, een grote groep mensen de prijs hebben betaald.
Ik heb een jaartje de geschiedenis lerarenopleiding gedaan en ik kan je verzekeren dat de nuance er aan zit te komen (de Canon van Nederland is aangepast: mensen in de ‘Gouden Eeuw’ die we vroeger als helden zagen worden nu meer weggezet als genuanceerde personen die soms ook slechte dingen hebben gedaan of verdedigd. Bijvoorbeeld wordt Michiel de Ruyter nu beschreven als een held voor ons, omdat hij ons beschermde tegen een Engels- Franse invasie vanaf zee, maar hij heeft voor de kust van Ghana ook slavenschepen beschermd en verdedigd tegen concurrerende landen). Het is alleen een beetje jammer dat in musea tegenwoordig het foute statement wordt gegeven dat Nederland _voornamelijk_ rijk is geworden door slavernij en kolonialisme (dit is onzin- de meeste Nederlanders waren en bleven straatarm in die tijd, ondanks het feit dat er wel een welvarende middenklasse ontstond), en dat steeds minder kinderen geschiedenis überhaupt interessant vinden. Maar ik vind deze video wel een beetje misleidend; alsof we pas sinds drie jaar praten over de misdaden van de Nederlanders in Indonesië (en andere koloniën) en tijdens de slavernijtijd, en alsof we trots zijn op de onderdrukking en uitbuiting van andere volkeren puur omdat ons land in die tijd een ongeëvenaarde culturele en academische groei kende, en omdat we één van de meest open en tolerante samenlevingen waren vergeleken met de rest van Europa.
Not completely true, there were 2 seperate companies, the VOC, which didn't really use slaves, and the WIC, which actively used and traded slaves. Part of the reason we love the VOC and never mention the WIC.
Well the VOC didn't trade in slaves but they did take slaves from their African trading posts as personal slaves or for the workers on their Asian plantations. The WIC was indeed the slave trader, populating the American cotton fields. But the VOC did use slaver for their own spice and rice plantations. Also the Africans were allready using and trading slaves before the white man came into Africa. Before that the only known slaves in Europe were Christians by the Nordic and before that we had Ceasar who also used slaves.
0:31 Prince Albert made an apology for British involvement in the slave trade in 1840, through his speech to the Society for the Extinction of the Slave Trade, expressing the support of the Royal Family towards the British anti-slavery lobby. This is well documented, the Netherlands was not the first of the large slave traders to apologise.
In MODERN times they ofcourse where the first who did apologize and MEAND it! LOL. AND expressing a support for a british anti-slavery lobby is by far NOT an official apology, even if it came from god himself! Oh wait, it's a BRITISH prince, my apologies! Typical example of british megalognia, it's exactly the same reason GREAT britain is in decline for already decades on about every level. Your ignorance and arrogance are proverbia!
Well this video was so overly cherry picking to push for a 'certain' narrative that by that point you cant really expect him to have done proper research lol.
@@GodofGamesssyeh, the poll was literally about people who refuse to apologize for something they probably didnt partake in (colonialism) and the narrator says that “the dutch love colonialism” etc
black pete has nothing to do with slavery, he wasnt even a slave. but i do get how its portrait nowadays and we could use it as an example of how beautiful our past was, yet how bad certain parts were. how we should celebrate it like sinterklaas, but also remember there were parts like black pete
There is actually a story about Saint Niclaus freeing black slaves, and them serving them freely from that moment on. Even so, that is not the actual story behind Black Pete. Black Pete originates in Afrika. It's a very long story how he came to be as he is now. Racism was not involved. But it's easy to get confused. I suggested in the past a few changes that Dutch would be fine with. They were shot down, with the words 'that entire holiday is racist, saint Niclaus is racist and it should be eradicated.' That is when I gave up.
VOC mentaliteit does not mean colonialism was good. It's about the trade mentality. I see the confusion, but you missed the meaning of what people say making the country some kind of rasist natiolalistic colonial power. At the moment people coming to the netherlands do not have to learn Dutch exept for refugees, higher educasion is not in dutch, saint nicolas festivities have been destroied because of the guilt from the colonial era and a small group of people threathening people and munisipalities. People do learn about colonialism and slabe trade and they did in the 70's.
Personally I think its important to be ok with a grey view. As a descendent of British aristocratics and colonists I simultaneously feel connected and proud of my history while simultaneously understanding the blood that history is built on and how lucky today. I think its not mostly helpful to make people feel really guilty and disconnected from the sins of there fathers but it is a problem when its white washed.
I think this is not to insight guilt on westerners, but to acknowledge that it happened and the empire and your country was build on that. I also think that reparations is a topic to be discussed.
not because a single person 100 years ago enslaved someones great father. But because the effects of slavery and racism are still on effect today, it's not on the individual it's on the social/macro scale. Is like having a race that someone is hadicaped for half of the race and than expect them catch up. but it's even worst because they were benefiting from the handicap in the first half of the race.
@@pedrocruz-ds6bj agreed. Though things like reparation and power changes i think are more difficult. I do note that many people have many different views, autonomy, symbols, language, and cultural revitalisation maybe sufficient for some. However i think most people would not be satisfied long term without a reduction in inequality. The trouble is systemic and targeted reductions is a formula we have not cracked. Short of that how much is enough, unless its a symbolic amount?
WW2 has a lot to answer for. The cartoon evil of the Nazis has allowed much of Western Europe to define themselves with national myths built around resistance/victimhood. The British, the french, the Dutch. All do it.
Always find it funny how channels like these are dutch made, while only dutch people discuss the topic of the video in english together in de comments😂. (Im also dutch)
Grappig? Hoogst irritant, bedoel je zeker. Waarom 'we' dat doen? Omdat de Nederlanders altijd iedereen terwille willen zijn in een andere taal (lees: Engels), totdat het Nederlands straks niet meer bestaat. Doen de Duitsers dat, de Fransen? Neen, enkel de Nederlanders. Waarom? Omdat ze erbij willen horen of iets te verkopen hebben. Zo is ons volk. Zijn 'we' dáár trots op? (Ja, het Engels is de 'lingua franca' van deze wereld. Ik weet het. Dat maakt het niet minder irritant.)
It is impressive to see the short exchange between a member of the parliament and the prime minister have such an impact. Cudos to both - the lady who addressed her ask in such a short yet clear way and the prime minister who, instead of answering at once by playing it down, admitted that he heard something that lasted an effect.
Why should I apologize neither I nor any in my family had a hand in? Honest question. this apology all seems like political virtue signalling with no substance.
Because even if it was a few generations ago you still benefit from that past. Its not like the harm and the benefits of slavery just disappears when the next generation comes along. There is a reason we are still one of the richest countries in the world. We personally are not accountable for the tragedies of the past but we as a country should still acknowledge that past and how it still benefits us.
@@anoukk_Most people were piss poor in the Netherlands though and our biggest revenue was through the Baltic Sea Trade, not even the slave trade which was overall only a few percent.
You don't have to apologize, but the Netherlands as a country does. We have benefitted greatly from injustices that our country has committed and economically, we still benefit.
@@anoukk_ The reason we're still one of the richest countries in the world, was not because of slavery... You've been lied to. The golden age was not build on slavery, as that only started at the end of that age, and without slavery in the period after, we would have been basically at the same spot today as we are now.
I would have liked to see which age groups think the government should apologize and which age groups don't. because there you can see the biggest shift. In the older generation the slave trade was never mentioned at school and only recent became part of the education system. this shows how important knowledge and education is in the believes of people.
Well,.. the older generation also have more fresh stories about the German occupation during world war II to consider. And be aware that labor was more harsh in the past. A current day civil servant investigating labor rules would start crying when they see how people worked in the sixties on the fields, or in the twenties in the mines. Things that happened during slavery feels a lot more alien to us today, than a century ago when live was harsher. So,.. I am not convinced that knowledge and education is the most important factor. As to the importance of knowledge and education... do you think only the West aught to apologize for slavery? Or to make it even more narrow, do you think only the West aught to apologize for the Trans-Atlantic slavery? Why or why not?
I wonder what you consider as the older generation. The slave trade has been a significant part of the education system, at least since the early 1980s. We were also taught were the word slave comes from.
@@KeesBoons In all fairness,.. with 'the older generation' I am thinking of my parents who were from the silent generation (before the baby boom). I guess some might consider that to be 'the ancient generation' now that I think of it.
Nonsense, the older generations had much better history education. Now young peopel who know absolutely nothing about Dutch history act like they have to teach and lecture them. But no, if your parents had to do slave labour in Germany government paying 200 million in subsidies to black peope, descendants of slaves or enslavers, is not the highest priority.
@@roelofjacobs5807 I sometimes get the feeling that anyone born in the previous century is considered old these days. It's not new that the youngest generation think themselves better than the previous ones. Fortunately we know one thing for sure. In not so many years this generation will be the "ancient" generation.
I think apologizing for the past using today's social standards is stupid, unnecessary, and counterproductive. Countries competed with one another then and used the methods available to them to gain an edge. Nowadays, countries have continued competing with one another the same way, though justifying their means through an alleged "democratic, inclusive" mentality. Perhaps in a couple of centuries, political leaders will be apologizing for the wrong things people did to each other in the first quarter of the 21st century. I believe it's stupid to think that way because societies change, and values and customs change. What you consider righteous today may be considered abhorrent in the future. Dutch history is beautiful!!
Slavery has always been wrong, and the train Atlantic slave trade was a scourge on European history. I mean, it creates the idea of race to justify it. This is inst a simple Oh it was some time ago let's forget it all people were bad anyway issue when just 30 years ago apartheid, remnants of that slavery system, continued to exist
When you make a mistake, you apologize for it. Don’t try separating today from then, talking about « the past » when the effects of that mistake are present today, as are those affected by that mistake. It wasn’t so long ago, and It’s only right to apologize.
We are talking about people's lifes. Not about countries. There are plenty of Dutch nationals, descendants of enslaved people. Don't those people deserve an apology from the state they are part of? In your logic, Germany does not have to apologise for killing hundreds of Jews?
Its interesting you go from the Dutch to the Germans with colonial past. And I can tell you why it isnt talked about a lot (in my schools history lessons this was definitely a topic btw), its partly bc for the past 80 years we have dealt majorly with our Nazi past, reparations, remembrance etc. Colonial past is being discussed more and more but it is also important to check the scale. In Germany we had Otto von Bismarck in these times. He didnt like and didnt want colonies, he wanted a cohesive, functioning Germany first before looking outward. This is also why Germany was very late to the "colonial-sphere" and only joined hesitently because businessmen had set up their own private colonies and demanded safety from the German navy after increasingly being harassed by the big colonial powers and their Navies. Now mind you, this turned also into state run atrocities being committed which also have to be talked about, for sure. But it is a much different history to the Dutch royal family, the Belgian royal family, the British royal family etc. systematically working towards colonial practices. Again, this isnt to absolve of, diminsh or discredit any of this history but Germany has had bigger history to deal with and I would say it is all done a lot and very visible, Nazi history is very visible, East German history is very visible, and all the rest. In Colonialism Germany really wasnt that big of a player, it was always more interesting gaining land adjacent to our borders than somewhere in Africa or Asia. It was also done but on a much different scale and managed a lot different from actual colonial powers. Not to mention Germany's colonial history was comparably very short. Joined the scramble for Africa very late and due to First and Second World War was out of it very early as well. Its like with Americas Slavery history. Germany has its history with Jews and America with African Americans, former Royal colonial powers like NL, UK or Portugal with slavery and exploitation there. We also have things like the Artifacts from Museums (the example of the Benin Bronze's recently returned were like much of German museum artifacts bought from the British who had stolen it) being returned and generally an awareness thats growing which is also very important.
True. Mixed luck in case of management. Askari were doing good under German rule they could be generals in army if they proved themselves. But there was one colony with very racist management in which black people were nothing but a prey hunted for sport.
2:14 Little resistance? The Netherlands had the 'februaristaking', which was brutally suppressed. It is estimated that 10.000 people joint the protests, of which 9 people died.
Our organised resistance group was also the largest out of all Western European countries, in ratio to population numbers. It’s said that the Germans needed more manpower to control the Dutch resistance than they did to control the French resistance. And yeah, most people weren’t and aren’t heroes who will risk their and their family’s lives for strangers, go figure… I hate that this ‘new’ perspective on wwII and the Dutch Resistance is that if you didn’t actively protest against the razzias or German occupation it means you supported it. Most people knew that the fate of the Jews would be terrible, and through personal letters and diary entries it is proven that they felt for them, even though the holocaust itself was a well- kept secret. And especially after the February Strike people didn’t openly protest anymore, which is why the Resistance moved underground.
Slavery is a dark page in history. When the politician said that she hopes that nobody would forget the second world war in the future, I understood what she meant. The thing is that lessons learned in the past when big (terrible) things happened will fade in time. People can connect to historic events to a certain extend. People who live today did not experience, nor are responsible, for terrible things that happened very long ago. I think that is why a big group of Dutch people did not feel the need to apologize.
It's all about who people can blame for their current misfortunes and to alow them to claim for reparations even though their only experiences from these events came from the story's that their grandparents told them, while others dont even have that but jump on the bandwagon because of the color of their skin. And this is one of the big reasons the Dutch people dont want to apologize. Apologizing means accepting guilt and there for opening yourself to these claims.
Slavery is a page in history that too often focuses on the last few hunderd years, but forget the suffering of the last 3000 years, cause African slave trading was a thing all the way back in the Roman era... Also the focus is too much on black slaves and not on the millions of white Christian slaves that were enslaved by northern Africans over the last 1000 years... The history of Slavery is nuanced and complex, yet the political left tries to Black Wash it and it disgusts me
Do you know that Indonesia has to pay 4, 5 million gulden for its independence to the Dutch, and it's only paid off along with interest by Indonesia in 2003?
Anton de Kom should ask what Surinam is worth now it's has been independent for almost 50 years. My granddad left for Amsterdam the day they got their indepence, his best decision ever. Surinam was gifted 3,5 billion guilders when they got their independence(7,4 billion euro's on a population of 370k, 18k euro per inhabitant) and they managed to piss it down the drain. The demand for apology is nothing more than a trap to ask for reparations(to apologize is to take blame, to take blame is to compensate), which makes my former countrymen just come off as greedy. It's too generalizing to state 'the Surinamese Dutch wanted the government to acknowledge this history', as I'm one of them and I don't precisely because it paints blacks as greedy. At the same time it's cutting far too much corners to just state 'the Netherlands only got their riches because of colonialism', not in the last place because all and every wealth this country had was eradicated by French and German invasions, but most riches came from the early-capitalist mercantilism & proto-stock market the invented. This allowed the Dutch middle-class to invest just like the nobles could(allowing for a far greater amount of investment) and spread risk. Slavery was just one of those things to invest in. Last but not least: Black Pete has the same origins as Central European Krampus, Slavic Perchta, and even the Germanic/Scandinavic Ravens of Wodan/Odin(presumably because Europe used to be inhabited by blue-eyes but darkskinned humans in the stone age, which may have become part of myths and folklore). Over the centuries the caricature was just modeled after black slaves, because that's the only dark skinned people the Dutch knew. In short, yes colonialism was bad, but instead of dwelling in the past and take every racist remark as evidence of not only systemic racism, but using it as an argument and tool for affirmitive action/privileges, is just repeating the history all over again, only with the arrow of racism in a different direction. Because the opposite of racism isn't 'anti-racism', it's _ no racism_
0:33 Barbary Privateers took over 1,2 Millions slaves from Europe... Dutch Government only took full responsibility of the Colonies since 1790, before that time it were companies, owning colonies. In The Netherlands, serfdom was banned in 1781.
Why should the average Dutch person apologize for somthing they did not take part in I'm Dutch-Surinamese and I don't blame the Dutch 1/3 of slave owners were Jewish from Portugal, spain and eastern europe..
Who told you to apologize? Just Accept or Recognize that DUTCH were colonial power with Bad history as past.! . Can you Do that? No need to apologize .. If you were brave enough to be accepting then You won't be crying over here.
I agree, but thats not what the video is saying though? It's the government and the monarchy that apologise. It's not your neighbour Kees who has to apologise to his Surinamese neighbours. The whole point of is this isn't so much to litteraly apologize for something you did, or to pay reperations or anything, it is to raise awareness about a bad thing that happened in history. Why is that important? so that people know WHY it was bad and that it should never happen again.
True, Dutch people shouldnt apologize, but because the government subsidised slave trade heavily, some might think they need to apologize. You cannot hold the average dutchman accountable for what happened. but because the government isn't a person, they can.
Can't they express remorse for the harm done by slavery and colonialism while at the same time being proud of their successful colonial history? This doesn't make them hypocritical, life and history is complex. Nothing should be painted with a such a broad brush as totally bad or good.
Remorse for slavery but simultaneously being proud of it, you are right nothing is ever black and white but European chattel slavery was probably the most black and white form of slavery ever
So I respectfully disagree. I’ll talk about the introduction of the video because I think that is what most of your arguments are based on -correct me if I’m wrong-. I am Dutch btw. In the video you stated that Balkenende claims the dutch need more of a colonial mindset, but in the video he stated the VOC mindset I haven’t looked up the original speech or his writings, but I doubt he literally said “colonial mindset”. I think he is not referring to the colonial mindset, I think Balkenende is referring to the entrepreneurial spirit. I feel like you are conflating the issue by implying that he is actively saying that The Netherlands should be pursuing slavery to become a global superpower. When I was younger and I was following history lessons about the VOC I was also impressed by the grandiosity and felt proud of the idea of having created a global trading monopoly because it is impressive, just like the Rockefeller empire was impressive and just like start wars viewers might think the death star is impressive but the idea of grandiosity and being proud of it is distinct from thinking that slavery is good or bad, then you might say well they used slavery to get to that grandiosity. I think you cannot judge the concept of slavery in our present context because it was considered “normal” in the 17th century, because if you do you need to put it in perspective and when you try to put it in perspective you’ll find that every country depending on their position of power would have applied slavery, I believe that if Suriname had a superior navy, trade structure and entrepreneurial spirit they would apply slavery just the same and Suriname just like other. Don’t get me wrong I realize the role The Dutch played, my history teacher called the golden age both the greatest age and the darkest page of our history. Me personally I don’t like to apologize for slavery, it’s like fighting over an offense I did not give, against those who were not alive to be offended, I would be apologizing for something I don’t feel sorry for. How does making a population apologize for something like this help progress the issue? You imply that 50% of the Dutch population has colonial pride, but I don’t think 50% of the population is proud of colonialism, I think they are proud of the grandiosity of the VOC and the impact they were able to make on the world as such a small country. Which is wholly different from saying that 50% of the Dutch populace supports slavery making the implicit argument that they then are evil. I just think 50% of the population does not want to apologize for something they didn’t do.
I think Dutch people in general don't support colonialism, bit of a misleading title. Most people in the netherlands don't think people nowadays should apologise for something we had nothing to do with. Struggling working people in the netherlands can be rubbed the wrong way when they are being told that they became rich because of slavery and should feel ashamed.
Are territorial wars the same as colonization? For example is the Alsace region of France a colony? If so then yes you are right but if not then probably not right
The prime minister Balkende saying we need to go back to the VOC mentality also means going back to enterpreunership, not necesarilly slave trade. VoC ofcourse traded slaves, but had more of an emphasis on transporting spices rather than enslaving local population and selling them (Ofcourse, they did that as well, but I don't think it was goal number 1 of the VoC)
my guy liking our former colonial empire is not supporting it, its because we noticed how much we lost when we lost the territories and the fact a small country like the netherlands was capable of creating such a giant empire
the source he has didn't reference Portugal. it only had data about Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, and Japan. bit of a miss I agree but you can only work with the data you have
@@ToastieBRRRNlol we sweds killed 1/4 Poland population 1656-1660. We never apologized to them and never will so dont expect us to give a shit about some stupid island because the people who lived where black.
Same goes for the Kingdom of Kongo (although not European but by far the biggest "supplier" of slaves in those days) which always gets left out conveniently.
It’s not that we are proud of it but if u think about it it is kind of impressive that such a small country had such a big impact on the world in that time, also think it is a bit of a stretch that the prime minister and the king have to apologize for something they have nothing to do with 400 years ago (no hate, this is my opinion, let me know if I’m wrong or if there is something I need to know)
In my opinion there is a BIG difference between, approving or even celebrating colonialism/slavery and not agreeing that we need to apologise. I don't believe anyone should be forced to apologise for something they themselves did not do. People are not responsible for what their forefathers did. We DO need to acknowledge that this happened and condemn these actions. No, ignoring dark chapters in history, no weak ass justification and excuses.
Exactly, why should i apologise for the bad things great grand father might have done? Sure i can accept that many off those actions in the past are not how we would like them to be, but it happened and saying sorry now doesn't change the past.
Not wanting to apologise for slavery has nothing to do with liking colonialism, it's got everything to do with logic and justice- the same reason you don't apologise when you aren't guilty but someone else is. The call for an 'east india' mentality is out if context and you have to be very facetious and pretentious to misinterpret the melodramatic rally call for an ambitious, global approach as something that's pro-colonialism.
I think it is disingenuous to suggest that pointing that comment out was meant to imply that Balkenende was in favor of colonialism. You can easily acknowledge that that is not the case while still examining that statement with a critical lens.
Indeed, with calling for a east india company mentality Balkenende was referring to a positive 'can do' attitude, not calling for the establishment of a colonial empire or reinstituting slavery. Showing that clip without context is a bit disingenuous.
I mean that's about as tactful as if a German called pan-European politics thevstrife for the Wehrmacht-mentality. Those clearly aren't the type of associations you want to have.
The thing that made me think was the example where if my parents had stolen a bunch of money and then I had inherited that money, would it be okay for me to keep that money? Absolutely not. The sensible thing would be to pay back everything that was taken, but as that's just not going to happen, apologies and acknowleding where our wealth comes from would be the absolute minimum we could do. Not too long ago I was in a museum about the Dutch invasion and occupation of Indonesia, and seeing that whilst I have (distant-ish) family in Ukraine just hit differently.
The wealth former colonial nations have now was built upon the exploitation of their colonies. These countries are poor because their national resources, labor was imported very cheaply to your countries. You inherited that ill-gotten wealth in the form of the advanced society you’re living in. I don’t say this to make you feel ashamed, you shouldn’t, but we could do better than saying past atrocities have nothing to do with us. For more information, check out the concept of unequal exchange.
Next poll should be about modern African states apologizing to the victim tribes that inhabit their territory and who were sold off to the European colonial powers as slaves by other local tribes who had the power (and culture) to do so. I think the whole historical issue of the slave trade is by far more complex than just saying "White Man bad" and expecting an apology from European nations. You don't hear the same pressure on the issue about the Arab nations doing the exact same thing to African peoples, or even Turkey's infamously ruthless Istanbul Slave Markets. Why? Talk about cherry picking your problems. Slavery is a horrible thing and shouldn't be tolerated. NOWADAYS. Asking for forgiveness on such an historic topic is incredibly useless and I could think of a number of more useful wastes of time and money, like actually doing something to combat racism in the HERE AND NOW, rather than stomping your feet and demand some superficial apologies. But hey, whatever makes you guys feel good about yourselves, I guess. Signed: A descendant of slaves.
Victimhood mentality is what they are looking for, everybody wants to be a victim nowadays, plus the fact they wanna change history by only telling certain parts, they would never ask the people from Algeria, Morocco and Tunis (The Barbary Coast Slave Trade) to apologize for the WHITE CHRiSTIAN slaves they kidnapped from European countries including my country The Netherlands. I dont care though cause it happened and we should look to the future, but it shows how selective they are in what history people should know.
I'm looking forward to the videos on German Colonialism. Most fascinating for me was the lack of government control in many cases and the military ignoring direct orders. It's exactly what Bismarck did for the 1870 war with France and there are many examples of Prussian military saying "Yes, sure" but omitting the "but honestly, not really, nah mate." or straight up saying "You're just a civilian - talk to the hand"
Name me one nation from the past that never had slaves , in WW2 lots of European man where forced to work in Germany, even now ( Qatar) and people forced to work for long hours for next to nothing is just a different kind of slavery .
The Russians don't have exactly an empire. They simply assimilated the natives and there is currently almost no other national feeling in Siberia than the Russian one.
That’s interesting huh, how Dutch people can’t be proud of their country because our ancestors traded slaves, but the Turks who have famously had one of the biggest slave trade networks off all time can be proud without having to feel ashamed
@@denjul_ Its also crazy to me how almost no one knows about the white slave trade. But it seems like only European histories are bad in the eyes of the public 😬
It continually amazes me how often people will take a complicated and nuanced subject, laser focus in on one aspect that suits their narrative, address that aspect alone, and ignore everything that doesn't fit with the narrative. To be against colonialism is to be against collective administration. Colonialism encompass everything from when the first homes came under a collective administration of a village, and everything since.
if your not from the netherlands, i would honestly just disregard this entire video. There are ofcourse allot of thrue points in the video, but allot of the things he says are twisted to further his political views.
I don’t understand this whole agenda of looking negatively at European nations when everything was done at a different time period where it was all considered normal and all done to get ahead and advance the nations which is why we have the advance and we’ll built infrastructure and society’s we have today we owe it to our ancestors for having that get ahead attitude and being the strongest and smartness in the world. Nothing to be ashamed of to me it should be celebrated. Everyone today is enjoying the fruits of this past including people that claim to be from slavery even tho they know nothing of it and never been themselfs yet act like victims not all but some.
As an south american, I think it's funny to see that awareness and reparations is focused towards europeans countries. Like, beesh... what about the slave routes made by arabs in north africa? What about the analogous slave workers occurring in China, even today? Enslavement was the common place for milenia. Is not possible to people ONLY see to europeans and seek for "justice" only against them. As far I study history, I see that enslavement happened all over the world (still happens today) and only with christinanity morals and catholic church the world gradually started to stop to kill disabled babies, stop to enslave people, and so on. Secular people nowadays are in their core christians in their morals and even don't have a clue about it. And all those social movements are artificially made up globally and have a plan, it have goals and it have clear targets. I'm tired that every problem we face today has roots since XVII century, and the global elite has been pushing their agenda since final of XIX century. But imagine speak about this, without people get mad at you instead with the message/reality.
I'm Dutch and my stance has always been: An apology costs nothing. The admission of one's faults, especially when it consists of knowingly and willingly causing suffering to others, should never be avoided. For how can we do what is right, if we do not acknowledge what is wrong? I hope that this change in our broader Dutch society will continue, and I hope that these admissions of guilt by the prime minister and the King help both the healing process for the descendants of the victims and the reconciliation process between us. Foremost should be the present and the future. That modern humanity creates a better global society where such things don't happen. A world where no human being suffers starvation or exploitation and we can all live in safety and with dignity. We aren't there yet and it will probably still take a while, but slowly but certainly, through thousands of years, we are making our way to it. And that wish (which was born from the first humans who suffered) is something those with kind hearts should never forget. The universe is cold and unforgiving, so it is up to us not to be.
An apology is not cost-free. Showing submission to those weaker than you out of spite, is a sign of weakness, and other nations like China will see this display of self-loathing as a sign that they can displace the West as the most powerful geopolitical force. They (correctly) estimate that the average willingness to fight for our leading position in the world is lower than theirs. Not good. I don't give a fuck about wether ex-colonial subject nations want apologies from us. I care about keeping the national morale and patriottic pride and a willingness to fight for our self-interest high, by whatever means necessary. History should work like this: rational analysis of past events to make sense of the present, when employed as a field of systematic academic study. But the way it should be taught in schools should be emphasising glorious events and relegating shameful events to the back pages - because there the function is to keep national morale high.
@@classicallpvault8251 I think it's sad you think an apology is an act of submission. I don't care what you do in the bedroom, but as far as "being the most powerful geopolitical force" is concerned, I think you are extremely cynical to believe it depends on dominance and subjugation, which in turn you think depends on propagandist "patriotic" education. That very style of education is what brought modern day Russia to Ukraine. Not at all the road any free democracy should envision for itself. I believe the reason the West has been the foremost global superpower is because for the past 75 years, they have brought relative peace and stability to a world unanimously exhausted by world war 2. The US' naval doctrine keeping the seas safe and open, globalization of commerce has brought prosperity to more people than ever before in human history. Global legalism through the UN and other multinational organizations. These are not acts of DOMINATION, but rather of mutual benefit, and nobody except for Russia and China (the US' nearest peers) have anything to gain from destroying the stability brought about by Western hegemony. And that's why Russia tries to rock the boat, creating global fuel and food crises and exacerbating other downward financial pressures. Because as everyone battens down the hatches and limits their empathy, it will be the poor countries who will suffer the most. And those countries might become inclined to oppose the existing world order (centered around international law and the UN) just to get out of stormy weather themselves. The King is just the man whom is permitted to wear the crown. There have been many Kings whom refused to relinquish their crown, only to lose their head along with it. And if you think geopolitics is any different, then you've not rationally analyzed the past. We are a collective of 17 million people and a continuation of the society of millions more that lived before us. We are the consciousness of this political entity. Surely we should be proud of our accomplishments, but we should also be cognizant of our mistakes. We shouldn't just see the world from our "lofty" position. THAT is how we find a united way forward. Because an egotist (whether it's a person or a country) does not know what others want, and will always end up becoming the enemy of, and being outnumbered by, those who do.
@@classicallpvault8251 "I don't give a fuck about wether ex-colonial subject nations want apologies from us. I care about keeping the national morale and patriottic pride and a willingness to fight for our self-interest high, by whatever means necessary". Spoken in the true spirit of VOC mentality. It's good to see this kind of mentality is a dying breed. Trying to hide your "shameful events" from the past, and current, is exactly what a country like China does. Hiding their shame, despite everyone knows about them.
And as Economist Dr. Thomas Sowell points out, slavery was a world institution for thousands of years and the transatlantic slave trade was relatively brief compared to the muslim slave trade. Europeans primarily the British and French ended the trade and practice by the early 1830s while the african muslims dudnt abolish slavery until the 1960s an 80s.
The Dutch people do recognize the colonial past, do know it wasn't right. But see no need in making apologies now. They have no meaning and no slave owners or slaves are involved today. Everyone in the Netherlands has equal rights right now and has the opportunity to make something great out of their life. In history, all people, of all races have been enslaved, which will get me to black pete soon (because you're wrong on the connections to it and how this character came to be). In any case, it was a different time back then and while in some cultures actual slavery is still happening (who cares right?), it's long gone for everyone here and people are proud of the ancestors who in that time, made our tiny country so strong and thriving. In a time where slavery was unfortunately still seen as an every day, acceptable thing. No one here will say it is now. That's the point. We now live with equal rights and honor the same flag (or at least we should), for a better society. Not play victims from any side. Now to Black Pete. In the 16th centrury there was already a tradition in (middle-)Europe involving St. Nicolas. Playing both the role of good and bad. To make it so he could just be the good guy, they added a demon called Krampus to go along with him. The so called evil guy. Also a character that made it so originally Black Pete carried "de roe" around. And was also known to put the bad behaving kids in a bag and take them to the forest. Later, in the area of europe where we live at least, they wanted a human figure to take over that role. Which became Black Pete. Black Pete is based on the Moors. Which were historically a good fit for the evil role. Black muslim pirates who at that time occupied Spain. (Hence the saying that if kids don't behave, they'll take them back to Spain, and don't forget those fancy clothes as well.) These Moors went along the European coast lines to, in contrary to what people claim Black Pete is, actually plunder, murder, rape and enslave white men, women and children. It's based on the enslavement of white people. Black Pete eventually came into existance due to Krampus and the influence the Moors have had on us and has now been made into a fun, friendly figure that kids of all races and backgrounds love. No one, no news outlet, no politician or UN elite has done research on this and use an either ignorant, or an actual on purpose lie as a polarising matter to create another "Oppressor and Victim" mentality in our society.
black pete & st nicholas are based on the (greek, indo-european) dioskuroi (gog & magog) a juggler (darkred mars) and a magician (brightwhite venus). much older then you think, however its true 16th century it was applied to spain and moors but the catholic tradition is older too. It originates to germanicus ^ twin^ sons martyred on Pandateria, banditland (land of exiles). Nero JC & Drusus JC, their remains were brought back to rome by their brother Gaius JC (caligula). This started a tradition, saints coming to town ( the arrival of nicholas and his knight). They are in revelations as the 2 witnesses exposed in public after been killed what compares to the obsolete sons of zebedee. A modern day telling is Peter Pan & tinkerbell (swordbearer and lightbearer) Cpt Hook & Mr Smee . The lost boys (just like the 3 little piglets) relate to germanicus (cornelius) sons.
Admirable about what? Kill,rape snd torture our ancestors is s thing to be proud of? Come to our country we will gladly welcome you again, not that you will leave unharmed that is. You treat people you deemed as lower than you and treated them worse then animals not very prideful isn't it, ignorance is bliss
As someone is enjoys and feels something like a sort of pride for my countries Empire (UK) I do recognize the sheer brutally, violence, exploitation and wrong doings that had come with the British empire. I would never wish for the empire to return but I do recognize that this small island conquered so much land and territory. Its like Mongolia, a nation of 3 million people are descendants of an empire that conquered nearly half the world and also killed millions and terrorized half the planet, but Mongolians are still proud of their history because this harsh landscape inhabited by 3 million residents are descendants of one of the world's best empires.
You are forgetting the main point as to why most of the Dutch didn't want to apologize. The people who are asking for an apology are people who haven't suffered slavery. They know that if the state acknowledges and apologizes they might get money out of it in forms of claims. The modern Dutch people refuse to pay for something that ended 160 years ago. There is nobody alive from that time. All the people who claim slavery is the reason they are not performing well in 2023 are people who think everything miserable in their life is because of something 160 years ago. They are lazy. Get to work. There is no country easier to live then the Netherlands. If you can't succeed in the Netherlands no where else you will succeed either.
Dude! It's not just about making it in a country. I am Indian. My country was fucked over by British, we were one of prosperous countries and they didn't competed economically but by lying déceit and treachery. And it's just not about making it in a country. There is life beyond job and money. I have settled here in Europe and let me you, the limitations you have culturally and lifestyle often puts you in back seat. Perception matters, an average British or European guy is considered as a posh sophisticated guy mostly cause they have means to do lot of things that are simply out of reach to others. As an Indian, we are always seen as either meek and cheap labour or online harassers "bobs and vagene" stereotype.
What about the people in Indonesia, and how Indonesia was absolutely milked dry of its recourses by the Netherlands? And is not only a country that has been riddled with instability since it got its independence, but would not have been a third world country if it weren’t for Dutch Colonialism. You calling the Indonesians lazy? A people who deal with poverty daily yet fight through it with grit and will. That’s what the Dutch people don’t want to acknowledge, nor want to be sorry for. You have a perverted sentiment to justify that.
When in Rome do as the Romans do. You go to a European country and want to continue in your own cultural fascion. This doesn't work. You need to integrate. As long as you behave and act as if you were in India in Europe nobody will accept you. And this works both ways. If i act Dutch in India i will have problems as well. Has nothing to do with past transgressions and stereotypes.
Important video, it supports the idea that there are no fixed roles for states as heroes and villains. A state can be a hero and a villain at the same time, e.g. the US saving Europe in WWII but at the same time having severe racial segregation at home.
@vegetableman3911 no even without the US, Germany would still have lost. Of course they'd have lost to the Soviets whom would have taken all land to the pyrenees, but they would have eventually collapsed anyway because communism can't into economy.
@@mappingshaman5280 let’s talk big picture here. I don’t just mean direct US intervention in the war, I mean all of their aid to allied nations like the UK and the Soviets. Now as a Brit, it can be hard to admit it but I’m fairly sure that without US help, we may not have fallen, but would definitely have been reduced to a negligible threat to the Germans. We didn’t have the capacity to carry out offensive operations against the theatres where the Germans were present, and until the invasion of Russia, that was very much true. Africa was a desperate battle after Rommel joined, and one of the main reasons we were able to outlast his supply and drive him back twice was because the US had sent armoured vehicles to reinforce our units. And the Soviets. They too received an immense amount of supply from both the US and the UK in terms of food, small arms, aircraft, vehicles etc. While this aid likely wasn’t a deciding factor in their victory, with the Luftwaffe able to exercise more control without the threat of British bombing raids (as happened frequently in our time), I believe that it’s likely German troops are able to advance faster than we saw. I believe with the extra supply and greater advantage of less materiel and personnel directed to fighting the Commonwealth, I think an axis victory is more likely than not. And, giving an educated opinion, I think that Commonwealth competence and performance to successfully resist the Axis on multiple fronts was largely dependent of US resources and aid.
You f-cking know he doesn't mean ''colonialism'' when talking about the VOC ''mentality'', it's about showing strength again as a small country being able to be so powerful.
@@yourineeven8457 The VOC heydays were about trade, trading outposts and having favourable relationships with local rulers by using military means. Colonialism and ruling native people was not much of a thing in those times, that only really started later with the need for large amounts of tropical cash crops (which needs lots of workers and land).
@@y-yyy "where are those (little) hands". There is a famous picture of a father sitting on a porch, looking at his daughters' severed hands in front of him, as punishment. The cutting off of childrens' hands was not uncommon to force obedience
@@Lemmy_Kilturtlenope not true. Cutting hands of the living was not a policy, indigenous soldiers sometimes did it when europeans were not around to cheat when they used a lot of bullets to hunt. Read the Casement Report, the hand cutting was more complex. The people you saw in the pictures were interviewed. They say soldiers shot them during fights. They seemed dead, so the soldiers took their hands. But they were not dead, and survived but without their hand.
Reparations, that's in the end what this is all about: Money. According to the descendants their ancestors suffered so much under colonial rule yet, as you said, immigrated to the overlord country upon gaining independence. And nobody raises an eyebrow to that logic? Of course people that go to the big universities where the idea grow so much more popular are privileged enough that it doesn't affect them much that reparations will be payed out of tax money so they support it easily because then they can be "doing the right thing" and "striving for justice" and get a feeling of self-fulfilment money can't buy them yet they would never propose to pay it themselves "it's the responsibility of the nation" as if everybody's sitting on savings of some wealthy great great great grandfather who worked at the VOC even though it was only a small portion of the population that worked there, and that's assuming every family that got rich off it stayed in the country.
Flawed premise. Immigration of the colonized and their descendants to the colonizer country is the obvious outcome and, in my opinion, one of the prices a colonizing nation must pay. There would be no black people in Suriname (and indeed, no Suriname at all) were it not for the Dutch's role in the slave trade; uprooting a nation's worth of people to the other side of the world, imposing Dutch culture and hierarchical supremacy upon them, and raking in the profits of the labor of the colonized leads directly to some of these people seeing the former colonizing country with both familiarity (even if alongside a backdrop of resentment due to historical institutional oppression), and, most crucially, better financial opportunities than the formerly colonized nation. So no, genius, nobody raises an eyebrow to that logic because it is evident it would've happened-or do you genuinely believe descendants of Africans forcibly transplanted by the Netherlands to an underdeveloped South American colony would all choose to stay in the remnants of a pillaged land or go live in the same country that forcibly gave them their language at the same time they became richer off their backs?
@@fernandoc5536 Yet the dutch did little in imposing their culture to the point most former colonies didn't even end up speaking the language. Colonialism is used as an easy excuse to give up before trying, there have been countries who managed to gain independence and make something of themselves and those that didn't and even countries like Ethiopia that managed to avoid getting colonized in the midst of the scramble for Africa still has similar issues to the rest of the continent, heck some countries after independence were doing well in terms of prosperity after decolonisation but have since stopped doing so. are we going to keep saying it's all because of that forever even though now it has already been over half a century?
@@rammusannus5364 70 years is quite a long ass time considering people who would have been old enough to remember anything of that time are either dead or can die at any moment, yeah, I consider an entire human lifetime a long time, I'm not some cosmic being looking upon time at the scale of how long the universe has been around.
Comment for mistakes and additional nuance.
When it comes to apologies, many people think individual Dutch are being asked to apologise for the slave trade. This is not the case. It is the Dutch government apologising. As representatives of the state that has existed for hundreds of years.
Portugal wasn't part of the yougov poll, so I unfortunately don't have data for that!
At 02:40 I say the Netherlands was the first country to legalise abortion. This is false. It should have said, 'one of the first countries'.
While I agree that individual Dutch residents shouldn't have to apologize, and it should be more on large companies that had the most benefit of slavery, I, A Dutch citizen, will apologize anyway. (and yeah, I know this is not the platform for that, but if prompted, I will apologize again if need be.)
This might be a grey area which you are pointing out. It is true that individual Dutch people don't have to apologize. However, the Dutch government wanted to apologize by sending ministers to former colonies mainly Surinam and Carribean Islands. One minister who was a descendant of a slave he wanted to apologize for the Dutch government in Surinam.
The people from Surinam and Surinam activists didn't want him to apologize because he was a descendant of a slave. They preferred a white minister apologizing. Therefore, he was not recognized as a representative of the Dutch government. This makes apologies very personal and less governmental.
@@Giftedbryan Why apologize?, you didn't do anything wrong, no way i will apologize for something only a few wealthy families did.
@@Schurkie505Exactly, most regular people here were poor. Even had people living in mud huts in the east, what reason do their descendants have to apologise?
Just wanted to point something out, in English the decimals are written with a point and thousands are separated by commas. I know numbers are written differently in mainland Europe, but in English, one thousand dollars and 25 cents would be written as $1,000.25 and not $1.000,25.
7:47 For non-Dutch viewers, 'liberal' in the Netherlands is mostly associated free markets (and corporate welfare), rather than social-liberalism.
It’s social liberalism
The VVD literally went from very right to very left in the span of 10 years
@@BedroomBully88 No they didn't, they're still very clearly right-wing.
@@KarlSnarks als ze echt rechts waren zaten we nu niet in de immigartie apocalyps
@@erik7853ls jouw brein echt functioneerde zou je deze comment niet hebben geplaatst
@@BedroomBully88 they are about as left wing as the amount of grass you touched in the past 10 days
Spoilers! it's zero
I think it comes from the perspective the Dutch saw themselves as the under dog when it comes to the age of colonialism. Like fighting for your Independence from Spain (the superpower at the time) and being able to rival bigger powers greater than themselves such as England and France. While make a success of it.
I think the fact you mentioned it as "cherry picking" the best bits is part of it because it's hard bitter pill to swallow. Many people rather be proud of something than be shameful it.
Good point regarding the Dutch viewing themselves as the underdog!
As to the cherry picking, no doubt that this plays a role. However , I am also convinced that this cherry picking happens on the other side of the debate as well. Cause to me it feels strange that it appears that only the West is supposed to apologize for slavery.
How do you look at the latter? Do you feel that other nations aught to apologize for slavery as well? If so, why or why not?
____
As to be proud instead of being shameful, on a national level I suspect it is also necessary to some degree. These days ideologies appears to want to divide us, putting us in different boxes. This I think is harmful because why would you care about a person in another box?.. well, there is this larger more important box called 'nationality', and inside that larger box we aught to treat people fairly as they are fellow citizens and that is how fellow citizens should treat each other.
It is also true that all sides are cherry picking, even this video has a lot of cherry picking. As many facts about Africa's part in (black) slave trade are rarely mentioned, how Europeans were enslaved in huge numbers in Africa and Asia, or how Europeans were the first to not only end slavery in their own countries, but also forced nations worldwide to do the same. Furthermore, there is not a country in the world that can truly be proud of their history, most can't even be proud of their present. You can be proud of a country and still acknowledge all that went wrong, which the vast majority does. Anyway, I truly believe we are heading in the right direction and lets hope that a generation sooner rather than later will finally be able to live together without worrying about the color of one's skin.
@@roelofjacobs5807you are right that other nations have bad history too, and history with slavery. But in all honesty, very little know about slavery in other parts of the world due to the recent history of western slavery and imperialism and most importantly, it’s scope and ideology. This channel already made a video addressing that. The scope of western slavery ( global ) and the ideology behind it ( that the others weren’t human ) truly put it in a class of its own , and that largely overshadows the history of slavery in other parts of the world , slavery committed by other groups and nations . That’s just it .
There’s no doubt others did it , and at some point it should be addressed , but western slavery still has a bigger impact today than anything else and the ideology that drove it still persists.
@@fongangamassana6034 I think I disagree with you.
I do agree with:
When you argue that there is a link to thinking that people from Africa are lesser people and slavery, in the west this indeed happened. My suspicion as to how that came to be; in Western Europe slavery was frowned upon. The way to justify the buying and selling of slaves was done with some mental (racists) gymnastics.
Some caveats to your position:
1) The idea that other people are lesser people, is not something typical Western. The link with racism and slavery might be typical Western, but neither racism nor slavery is.
2) To the best of my knowledge, the Arab slave trade was more gruesome than the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. It also involved roughly the same amount of Africans, albeit over a much longer period of time (know that the men were usually castrated). So I reject your notion that the Western slave trade overshadowed the rest.*
3) Know that "It are Christian dogs" was a way that Northern Africans justified putting people from Europe on galleys. This by the way was also a more gruesome form of slavery than the Trans-Atlantic slave trade.
*Know that the British played a large role in dismantling this slave trade. Also, Europeans were still being made slave and sold in the Arab slave trade long after Europe and the United States abolished slavery.
@@roelofjacobs5807 I suspect the pressure is on the West due to many of the political and business entireties that benefitted from slavery. I can't name any Africans companies that got there start as slave traders. Not to mention the lack of a pan African identity during the time of the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Even then I do think some of the academics is turning on that. Case in point the movie the Woman King got flack for portraying the African female warriors as freeing slaves when in reality they captured other African tribes to sell into slavery. Apparently when Lupita Nyong'o found this out while doing a documentary on the warriors she dropped out of Woman King.
Why wasn't Portugal included in the poll? That's odd, considering that country was one of the first, and last, European colonial powers to exist. And I would bet a million dollars that if the same poll was done on the Portuguese, up to 70% of the respondents would be "proud of their former colonial empire".
Of course we are proud. We can't judge the morality of those times.
The small isolated nation that "gave new worlds to the World"
@@avantelvsitania3359 Portugal implemented a policy of forced labor upon Black Africans until the 1960s. This is way within the timeline where such practices were considered immoral worldwide.
@@robto yes, there were immoral practices, and those should be condemn, after careful analysis. But that doesn't mean we have to condemn our Empire as "intrinsically evil". That's not the way to look at things
@@avantelvsitania3359 by the same token, I also don't think anyone should feel "proud" of having a colonial Empire either.
Too small, not worth mentioning
2:40 Actually the Soviet Union was the first country to legalise abortion
Yep, also noticed that
and gay marriage was legalized by Denmark first
@@daniellourie1978 no, that was the Netherlands; Denmark had 'recognized partnerships' but they weren't legally defined as marriages.
Abortion should be banned
Laws are confusing sometimes, recognizing and legalizing
The reason German colonial history isn't talked about much is because their colonial empire only really lasted 3 decades before their territories were seized during WW1. It was really the shortest lived colonial empire of any significant size.
I also want to add: In the german school system we talk excessively about the crimes of tha nazis. If there is any time left it is usually spend on the crimes of the communist eastern half.
There is basically no time left in the german curriculum to talk about colonialism.
i imagine this is a topic that will be discussed more in the future where the nazi period is far enough behind that it wont have as much of a central focus in german history & education.
@@cosmosyn2514 I dont think so.
The period of german colonozation was very short and limited. We do mention it in the history classes but we talk much more about other colonial empires. The system was the same in german colonies but the scale is just too small to really show all the effects of colonization.
German colonozation is something that affected hundreds of thousands but WW2 and the holocaust affected tens of millions of people (all victims + soldier + civilians) and WW2 shaped the way the modern world works today. Its much more relevant.
I feel bad for Deutshland
@@MisterKackhaufen That is true, my father was thought in that school system. My father told me that.
My grandmother who died a few weeks ago at 99 was born and spend her childhood while Indonesia was still a Dutch colony. It is all not that long ago as a lot of people think.
Thanks for sharing, it is very recent still
RIP
Yeah in historical terms it's incredibly recent.
I have various friends whose parent were born in colonial Indonesia, just as my dad was born in colonial Surinam.
I watched a video and somewhere in Africa they are still widely using a road the Germans built over a hundred years ago. The present day occupiers of that nation should be grateful The Germans colonized the area so they could have a road. Same for most places that were ever colonized. South Africa is no exception, it was the most heavily colonized area, and was the most developed part of Africa. Until the end of Apartheid South Africa was a developing nation, unfortunately now it is an undeveloped nation. Although it still is the most developed in Africa.
"The highest number off ALL european colonial empires"
Portugal after starting the discovery age, ruling the indic ocean and defeating the otomans various times but still not apearing in the map: bruhh
Also conveniently only mentioning the European empires, and not the other big ones in Africa and Asia
@@roejogan2693nobody else really had an overseas colonial empire except for maybe Japan and the US.
@@iattacku2773 Does it have to be overseas to be colonialism and slavery? Slave trade is a part of every empire in history. I find it absurd that the west is almost solely getting the blame for slavery when we were one of the only regions that stopped practicing it.
@@timobrenn we forget one thing: we abolished slavery in the 1800s but not even 10 years later we colonized Africa. So i wouldn't be proudly saying "we abolished slavery thus we're good" or something like that.
@@I_hu85ghjo I'm not saying the west hasnt done bad things or hasn't been hypocritical at points. However i think being the only real region abolishing those acts should not be completely disregarded. it might not have been good but it is definitely alot better than not abolishing slavery.
(if there were other larger regions that did the same i'd love to know about them btw)
9:30 I love how addressing the value Dutch people hold for the remembrance of WW2 helped remembrance of slavery and colonialism hit home for the prime minister. Sometimes there is a clear truth that is hard for people to acknowledge, but using good parallels in the things they already find important can help bring them into that place of effective sympathy.
Excellent work by that spokeswoman there!
Problem is, the trans atlantic slave trade was done by Jewish traders.
@@urhunn7778 No, it wasn't, the few jewish people involved are not enough to magically outweigh the european christian majority they were surrounded by.
cute attempt to redirect blame onto europe's favorite scapegoat group though, I'm sure you've at least fooled yourself!
Can you tell me what was the reason why there were no slave markets open on Saturdays in America?@@drewgehringer7813
@@urhunn7778 ah man blaming the jews a classic trick 🙄
Don't let it fool you. This is the only non-racist thing she has ever said. She was the only seat her BIJ1 had and their only views are racist claims like ''black people are by percentage less often police agents so when sollicitating they must be priorised above white men'' and that kind of shit. She never had real arguments, could only talk about skin colour and when a member of her party supported ''Kill the Boer'' (South-African movement to kill white South-Africans) she did not openly distantiate or something. Biggest racist in our parliament in many many years.
Would love to see a video on the Dutch relationship with South Africa in the 20th century, especially with the emergence of the system of apartheid.
@@Larsino2000 Interesting. Considering the fact Dutch established class-system in their own colonies in the Indies, with First-class citizens were Europeans, the Chinese and Arabs became second-class, while indigenous were third class.
@@Airmee If you are trying to compare a fairly typical colonial class system to Apartheid, as you seem to want to imply without actually saying it, then that is a comparison that will not go very far.
@@Intel-i7-9700k Well, apartheid originates from the same underlying cause and within the same temporal framework/timeline.
@@Airmee Nelson Mandela said thanks to the Netherlands for their support against apartheid that should should be enough. Our dutch decendent settlers caused Apartheid that's very true as well! There is no denying that fact. And we were one of the first countries that helped the ANC to get rid of it. We still till today have colonies but those colonies where all given the choice if they wanted to stay with us, became semi independed own government and currency own police and soldiers but the Netherlands still responsible for governmental issues , or break away and go independent. If one of them no longer wants to be part of us they only have to ask and have a referandum for it.
South Africa stopped being a Dutch colony in the early 19th century.
As a Dutch person, I think when people celebrate the Golden Age and talk about the VOC mentality they are not specifically talking about slavery. But rather about the trading, the conquest and the go-getter mentality. I dont know much about mongolia but they probably are very proud of Genghis Khan even though he did a lot of bad stuff. Or the Greeks with Alexander the Great. This is just my thought on this, if anyone has a different perspective I'm open to hear about it
As another Dutch person. And Dutch people like to dismiss black and brown peoples experiences and the bad parts of the VOC history. They only pay attention to the money and not where the money came from.
I've got plenty of experiences with people overt and hidden racism. And it's still current unfortunately.
Little fact for you, dutch slavery started at the end of what is commonly considered the golden age. I think it's more appropriate to say that the dutch went the route of slavery to make up for the dissapearing wealth and power that came with the century long downfall of the dutch empire after the period of fortune ended.
in short, the golden age, the VOC and the country itself weren't founded on slavery, but turned towards it in a time of moral weakness, to eventually realize the error of their ways and ban it.
Genghis Khan has his own holiday, so I don't know that they do have any issue with what he did. But it's understandable for them to celebrate Mongolian success. The Dutch however can't do such things because they are wealthy or something.
@@DrTheRich
Ik heb het niet alleen over de slavenhandel, maar ook over de kolonisatie en het verleden in het algemeen.
De regering (en dus de vertegenwoordigers van de huidige en verleden staat) hebben jarenlang gezegd dat excuses niet hoeft. En dat gaf natuurlijk het signaal af aan iedereen (en de Nederlandse bevolking) dat zwarte piet als slaven afbeelden goed en normaal was. Dat is waar het om gaat. Gelukkig komt daar de laatste jaren verandering in, maar het heeft wel heeel lang geduurt voor een land dat zich als tolerant probeert te presenteren.
Het is niet alleen het verleden, maar juist de effecten ervan. Maar we zijn in ieder geval op het juiste pad.
@@DrTheRich “moral weakness” the only moral weakness I see is nowadays, with mental health crisis, and the pretend victimhood. Men acting like females and women acting like males. That is moral weakness, bUt wE hAvE To AccEPt tHEm FoR wHO tHeY ARe.
Much like the Dutch, the Portuguese also are proud of their past. Back in the day those travels could be compared to going to the moon and returning.
I get your point, but Neil Armstrong didn't murder any moonmen.
@@SamWeiss-z3u I'm still stunned how some people are blind to atrocities.
So they are proud of their Brazilian Mills ? 🤨
@@SamWeiss-z3u Eh, I've seen protests of disenfranchised minorities in America in the 60's complaining that money on the space race was wasted and not funnelled to welfare, thus letting their children starve.
Anything can be spun into a guilt trip narrative if you try hard enough.
@@SamWeiss-z3u lol
why are people (white ethno nationalists, lets be real here) upset about an apology? they are just acknowledging their past mistakes and asking for forgiveness, its not like the Dutch are being asked to bend over backwards and completely submit to their former subjects. it's not shameful to own up to your people's evil of the past.
well said
well said!
Because there is nothing to forgive and nothing to apologise. This is how the worlds use to function. I don't see any Arabs apologising for the white slave trade (or the black slave trade for that matter). I am from Greece, should i demand apologies from the Turks when they defeated us in the 1400s and occupied us? The answer is no, in the past 'conqueror's right' was a thing. It is stupid simple. Dutch People don't owe an apology to anyone.
Because we have done nothing wrong, and its a betrayal to our ancestors achievements and glory. We wont take a knee for these peoples that lost against us and hate us.
Winners never say sorry.
I will REPOST my DELETED comment:
Because there is nothing to forgive and nothing to apologise. This is how the worlds use to function. I don't see any Arabs apologising for the white slave trade (or the black slave trade for that matter). I am from Greece, should i demand apologies from the Turks when they defeated us in the 1400s and occupied us? The answer is no, in the past 'conqueror's right' was a thing. It is stupid simple. Dutch People don't owe an apology to anyone.
as an indonesian, we dont really care, we barely even gave a thought about the dutch now
Damn and I was here thinking we lived rent free in the minds of all indonesians.
@@jelleesWell at the least the Indonesians do live rent free in your head.
@@Dutch-McLarenJk82- lmao true
who cares about those sinking blondes
@@jelleesthey have colonized your thoughts O_O
Super interesting video, but just a correction: the Netherlands weren't the first to legalise abortion. The Soviet Union legalised it as early as 1920. This was later reversed by Stalin, but it began legal again in the 1950s.
This was still far earlier than in the Netherlands, where it was more or less tolerated (gedoogd) from the late 1960s onwards and officially legalised in 1984. The 1970s saw other countries such as Denmark, West Germany and France legalising it as well. So no, the Netherlands weren't the first!
They didn't only legalize it, they promoted it as the prefered form of birth control. Soviet women often had five to ten abortions in their life or even more. Stalin only stopped this policy for some years, because he needed higher birth rates to fill the ranks of the Red Army.
In Spain, abortion for any cause until the 12th week was legalized in Catalonia (1936) and the rest of the Second Spanish Republic territory (1937) during the Spanish Civil War. It didn't last much though, as when Franco won the war, abortion became illegal again. It wasn't until well into Franco's death and the restoration of democracy when it was legalized again (1985), but even then the law only permitted abortion in very specific circumstances. It wouldn't be until 2010 when we would have a regulation regarding abortion as progressive as the one from the Second Spanish Republic.
yes. stalin made is illegal because the ussr lost 27 million people and needed to increase the population of the country again
Wow,l wouldnt really know this😳
İt is very interesting for me.but l asked you:
"Why?"
Why at first time ussr and socialist government in spain tried to doing this? What was cause?"
@@arazatliyev6564 I mean, socialist and communist governments have always been more keen to socially progressive ideas and protection to minorities and traditionally marginalized groups, specially when it comes to women rights. The Second Spanish Republic approved the abortion law thanks to Federica Montseny, Health Minister back then that pushed for it, and the first woman to become a minister of any government in western Europe. The Spanish Republic had other women in top governmen positions, like Victoria Kent, who was Director General of Prisons during the 1930s, and pushed for a massive reform of the prison system to make it more ethical and humane. Other important socially progressive reforms took place during those years, like the decriminalization of homosexualiy, or the transformation of the catholic, gender-segregated education system into a secular, gender-mixed system, and much more. Again, that was during socialist governments, and when Franco came imto power all the policies where reversed to the old, traditional and conservative ones again. It wouldn't be until the end of Franco's regime when Spain would have other women in a top-positions in the government and again those iniciatives for progressive policies.
As a black Jamaican-American, I think it's important to learn about the past, but quite stupid to expect present day Whites to apologize to me, or anyone else for that matter, for the actions of their ancestors. I'm no more a victim of slavery than they are perpetrators of slavery. The only persons owed an apology are the actual victims that suffered, and since they've been dead for centuries, making a big public apology spectacle is nothing more than a silly and futile exercise in virtue signaling. I am not a victim, I am not oppressed and I'm not aware of any advantages, rights and privileges white people have that I do not likewise enjoy. The best possible reparation is not cash, but equality. We need to stop wasting time weeping about the past and just get on with life. Be the best, be the most brilliant and be most accomplished person you can be - that's the true legacy of our ancestors.
Based
well said
As a Jamaican-American this person does not speak for us. Totally ignorant and sounds like a kiss-up and apologist for White Supremacy.
😅
Mate, you may have black skin, but you are a white colonialist if you think that intergenerational trauma doesn't exist and that countries like the Netherlands are not privileged as a result of slavery. If you suffer in any way because of the slavery of your ancestors or have less advantages in America, the fact is you are still the victim, regardless of whether you accept this fact.
The first step in decolonising is telling the truth.
As an Indonesian, most of or frankly all of the apologies from the Dutch are about the War Crimes they've committed trying to retake and stabilize Indonesia after Japanese Surrender and won't take a formal Independence as an answer.
While that was bad, we're chill now, the Colonial days may be bad but the actions known as "Agresi Militer" (Military Aggression) was frankly more brutal.
Are you talking about the politionele acties?
@@Lucerd127 Yep, I was talking about that.
This could potentially change with our new government after this years elections. We have had the same prime minister (Mark Rutte) for the last 13 years. His father and mother are Indisch (Orang Indo, Indo European). His father had been in a Japanese camp during WW2 (interestingly losing his first wife there, and his mother is the younger sister of the first wife). So it is a very personal topic to him. I personally believe therefore apologies were first made to Indonesia instead of to Suriname, and also why its mostly focussed on the moment after WW2. It could also be because most Indonesian and Indo descendants in the Netherlands left Indonesia after the Agresi Militer and fought on the Dutch side, so its very important for them because they left the country because of it. So there are a lot of personal reasons for the one sided apology, but I notice people start to also focus more on the colonial past in Indonesia after this focus on Suriname. Maybe with a new PM the apologies for the colonial past will be made.
@@blue.berry.hahaha no, there is nothing to apologize for? The people that currently live in Surinam have not suffered and at the same time are opressing en population of the land...
@@teaser6089 I'm not saying that individuals should apologise to other individuals. But our government should definitely apologise to the former colony countries. Its not about the present day population, but acknowledging that what a former government did was wrong and as the new government you will learn from those mistakes and make sure it wont happen again. Just ignoring what happened makes it seem like you approve, while apologies show that you disapprove. It is bad for the relationship, and we share a lot of history and culture with these countries. We are stronger as friends, than as enemies.
I think there are two other historical factors that make the Dutch view on colonialism and slavery different:
- Slavery was officially outlawed in The Netherlands itself, meaning people were not allowed to hold slaves in the country.
It still happened on occasion, but most slavery happened in the colonies themselves or by exporting to other countries, like the American continent.
This made it far less visible to the average Dutch citizen of the time and reflects in how that period of Dutch history is written.
- Despite the above, eventually the poor treatment of slaves reached the country and citizens were distraught about this.
Eventually due to public pressure things like basic education was introduced to the colonies and limited forms of upward mobility were introduced for the slaves.
This lead to this false sense of being "benevolent overlords" that permeated into the history books.
I remember myself that this was a significant portion in the school history books.
While the segments about the horrible massacres that occurred to take the colonies in the first place were brief, for example.
As for the hesitation to make an official apology: Many feared this would open The Netherlands up to lawsuits or reparation payments.
This made both officials and sections of the public hesitant about offering an official apology, especially since the economy isn't doing so hot for a few years now.
This was an the argument I heard often whenever this topic was talked about.
Most Dutch people won't deny that slavery was bad and a dark chapter of our history.
However offering an apology makes them feel like it was their fault personally.
It gets really murky with the whole debate on how much current generations profited from the slavery of the past.
So it's not simply dismissed as "We had nothing to do with it." yet it's also not like current generations of ex-slaves are directly accusing them.
It adds to this struggle between "It wasn't me who committed slavery, it was my ancestors choice."
and "I want them to recognise the damage they caused to us and our ancestors".
Hopefully recent efforts will allow people to give it a proper place in history, culture, etc.
Wrong debt slavery of white Europeans was still practiced. Most sailors onboard the VOC ships were white slaves.
Yeah, the creator seemed to have missed a few things here and I’m glad that you pointed them out. Everyone here learns about the horrors of Dutch colonialism and slavery. Not since “the past few years” but more like the past few decades. We aren’t proud of slavery and colonialism in and of itself, and it sucks that museums nowadays falsely claim that these were the main two factors that made the Dutch Republic rich.
But the sudden demand for an apology indeed made us feel like we were accused of being responsible for what a couple of tens of thousands of people did in the past (so not even “our” ancestors in most cases). This lead to kneejerk reactions on both sides of the matter, which lead to missing the point of indeed _recognizing_ the full story. Within the school system they’re on their way to nuance our heroes of old; people like Michiel de Ruyter. I don’t think if I agree with it, but I think it’s good that instead of destroying statues, we instead add the rest of the story and context to the person. For example, Michiel de Ruyter was a hero in our eyes because he stopped an English- French invasion in 1672 and furthermore helped us keep our trading position on the seas. But he also defended slave ships off the coast of Ghana if I’m right. The children are hereby allowed to form their own opinion about him, instead of getting told what to think. It’s a shame that they don’t really do this in our museums and very rarely in tv documentaries.
This was the case for most of the European slave trading nations. Slavery was outlawed in the country, so the colonies counted as different countries with different laws, which included the otherwise illegal practice of slavery.
Just wanted to add that slavery in the Netherlands itself was forbidden by law for Christians. So interestingly when a slave would be brought from the WIC or VOC, they hacked the system by baptising in secret to free themselves. So slavery was not completely forbidden in NL, but in practice it wasn’t really done because of this hack.
If we have to apologize for our slavery, northern Africa has to apologize for their slavery of millions of White Christians that they enslaved during the last 2000 years...
I'm surinamese myself, born and raised in the netherlands. I used to be a very proud dutch guy. I still am, but for different reasons. I remember not understanding why people should apologize for a past they didn't play a part in.
I still have family in surinam after covid decided to visit them every year. I've been to a few plantains with family. Hearing the stories of how horribly they were treated, literally subhuman, made me realize. Everybody born in the netherlands, is incredibly lucky, including me. We're born rich. We're living in a rich country, built on the backs of history. And that history is colonialism. We have the ability to get educated, get treatment for health problems, get money if we're struggling, have access to clean food and water, all because of our past. And seeing what this past looked like, seeing the eerie plantains, pictures, the blood, the deafening silence, knowing what happened here. And then looking at the dutch families, laughing, well dressed. And then going back to the netherlands, walking through the luxurious Schiphol Airport, back to my comfy house, made me realize that we're still all profiting daily from this past. We take it for granted, we didnt choose to be born here. But that doesnt change the fact that we are profiting while others are suffering. Not because our race or culture is better, it's because we destroyed others and prevented them from developping.
Slavery is still not over and we all profit 🤷♂️. African child labour/ Chinese factories/ Lower paid foreigners in The Netherlands itself. We say we ended slavery but we still finance countries where slavery is still a normal thing, it’s all about the money🤷♂️
@@Bintzak yeah dont forget dubai and the indian workers. Literal modern day slavery
@@wintutorials2282 in dubai atleast they get paid 10x what they wouldve been paid in their original country and the working conditions are miles better
@@notpillow6759 hmm i dont know about that. I know the working conditions are far worse, that's a fact. But besides that; Passports taken away, a lot of deaths, most undocumented. And most people regret it.
@@wintutorials2282 bro have you even seen the conditions in India? People are running from poverty, corruption, and exploitation to get to Dubai because, guess what, it’s a hundred times better than the hellhole they’re leaving behind. They’re getting paid way more and actually have a shot at supporting their families.
Still waiting for the Turks to apologize to every Balkan country
They dream of invading again
Turks wouldn’t even apologize to themselves if they colonized themselves.
i dont see that happening any soon, or ever
And North Africa and Arabia
and most importantly, Armenia
My dad was born in the Dutch East Indies we are proud of our Dutch background greetings from the de Vries family in Adelaide Australia
i am also dutch indonesian from sa 🇦🇺
I'm from Portugal and we should just own up to what we did in the past. You can show pride towards your countries achievements, but the darker parts of history shouldn't be ignored or repressed. Propaganda already did a number on us in the past, and we can't let that happen again.
É isso, muito mais honesto. Os colonizados só querem respeito e reconhecimento. É justo as pessoas tirarem foto da Torre Eiffel e sequer saberem quanto sangue haitiano custou ela? O que a frança e os EUA fizeram com Haiti e a Bèlgica com o Congo, foi genocídio.
Ive never heard an African apologise to Portugal for colonising your country for 700 years.
and it is going to happen again. as every year goes by, your country will become more African just like it did in al andalus. by 2060, u will be the minority in ur country and ur country will be majority Angolan and moroccan. as it was In the 1400s
@@themongol1263Yeah because Africans didn't conquer Iberia, Arabs did 🤦 Portugal didn't exist either it was the Visigoths.
@@themongol1263 i don't remember to buy portuguese people, so we're are comparing a way different thing. One thing is the legit war, another is genocide and slavery. Which already was abolished in europe.
1:00 to be fair. That wasn't much of a pro-colonial statement in the context of the full debate at all.
He was more so using the VOC as an example for out of the box thinking and taking risks.
Was it insensitive? Maybe. (You can hear a large part booing against that statement a moment after he said that, which was cut from the video.) But I feel like it's a tad misleading to couple that quote with the message of the video.
Otherwise fantastic video. Your production quality is really, really high.
I wanted to say the exact same things
True, Balkenende was referring to the entrepreneurial spirit of the VOC and how the Netherlands should economically be more confident. But this view is indicative of how ignorant the Dutch are about the VOC and that there's a blind spot when it comes to the knowledge about how the wealth was only possible by the subjugation of people.
@@kykale indeed a demonstration of ignorance, which is lamentable. but not a demonstration of imperialist sentiment, which is abominable.
an important distinction to make, when you are making sweeping statements regarding an entire country
@@JABN97 It was not ignorance. The man studied history, so he was absolutely aware of the negative history of the organisation. At that time this wasn't of any concert to the public at large and the PM knew this. That is why he could make this statement and be celebrated for it as well.
the creator of this video is a complete amateur who has basically copy and pasted fragments out of context to paint a picture.
Why is it always about "Europeans should apologize for slavery"? In that case, most of the Muslim world should apologize to basically entirety of Europe for it's slave trade and conquest.
Thank you!!
Because, Muslims slave trade was different. They gave them citizenship, gave them a choice to convert or not, did not enslave women or children
@@SuperAymanDx they are forced european woman to be sex slaves, they also forced european men to be row slaves for the rest of their lives, they also castrated balkan children and forced them to be soldiers
@@SuperAymanDxoh, you are so wrong
@@Boti-vr5hv this is coming from a cousin, or at least, a former slave who became my "cousin" in my family. I am sahrawi...
Well, actually the USSR was the first to legalize abortion.
So that's why some American politicians hate abortion
why apologies for something we had no part in doing?
because we are still feeling the effects and in contrast, you can enjoy living in a developed country due to the riches stolen from us
@@skyfeelan so i should apologise to Mark, because Timmy stole a cookie from Mark back in grade school?
@@skyfeelan boo hoo
@@skyfeelancry some more
@@sn0lderTimmy's cookie doesn't affect Mark's life in any way, but colonialism does.
Great video and appreciating your approach. As Austrian, the WW2 victimhood narrative sounds very familiar. In Austria it is utilized a lot to not speak about Austrias own collaborators’role while completely ignoring the Binnenkolonialismus of the Austrian and Habsburg Lands. Binnenkolonialismus loosely translates as internal colonialisms and refers to Austrian colonialization of Eastern Europe. Unfortunately, Binnenkolonialismus is neither framed as negative nor addressed sufficiently in schools or public.
Also, Austrian slave trade of Black people.
The Austrian monarchs in Mexico were great almost tho, Von Humboldt was a collector of ancient mexijka artifacts and I think the descendant of Motekujzoma the last mexijka king lives in Austria
That's wild to me, considering the reason why WW2 happened was a certain Austrian and his ... "solutions." Hopefully people talk more about it
Well, that's because Binnenkolonialismus is more of a terminus technicus coming from Medieval Studies (and I think you actually refer to the Habsburgian Landesausbau) and it's not quite comparable to modern colonialism (we also normally don't frame Greek or Phoenician colonization as "bad"). That has two reasons: First of all, Binnenkolonisation does mean a lot of things, it can adress enlisting Saxons to move to Transilvania as well as settling 5 kilometers upstream and clearing the thick forest there. The modes are very different and heterogenous. Secondly, we discuss colonialism as a phenomenon resulting in todays inequality between global spheres and peoples and the many lasting problems of colonized and marginalized groups. Without such people, it's pointless to frame it negative. We don't collectively frown upon the disappearance of the Old Prussians (through assimilation or genocide), because no plaintiff no judge.
@@Continental27995 thanks for this elaborate explanation. I was not aware that “clearance of thick forest” can mean Binnenkolonialismus too. So would the allocation of lands, e g HREmperor assigning a border land to a vassal, count as Binnenkolonialismus?
We went through the word in Austrian history at university in regards to post-Napoleonic conquests in Eastern Europe. Though, -now stretching a bit far here, and thinking out loud here- we could think of the economical inequalities that exist between Binnencolonies and their centers. For example austrian banks or petro-agri companies owning large market shares in former lands?
You seem to completely forget the largest of the slave trading nations, the Ottoman Empire, in the modern day Turkey, in that list of slave trading nations. It transported almost as many slaves as every other nation on that list combined, and is still completely proud of that fact and history.
Read title of video
Unfortunately no one here in Turkey talks about that
Being proud of an empire isn't the same as supporting it. I personally think it's impressive That Great Britain, a small island nation, managed to take control of half the planet. That, however, isn't to say that I think it's a good thing that it happened. That can't be too difficult to understand.
Another thing - the apology. It's no use making young people say sorry for things their ancestors did. If anything it's insulting and come across as insincere as they didn't commit the deeds themselves. Imagine asking African people if they feel guilty about Africans enslaving Africans first and then selling them to Europeans, they would all say no.
As Indonesian i appreciate the acknowledgment of our shared history. With the recent acknowledgment of Indonesian independent in 1945 instead of 1947, i hope it will open reconcilation of the victim of dutch invasion of Indonesia during the independence war. This definitely a great move to move forward as society
Don't forget that Soekarno forced repatriation upon Indo or Indonesian Born Dutch people.
yeah but our "suffering" from dutch colonialism in this video are overshadowed by these "enslaved" people sufferings
@@FauzyGamerz it's not a competition. There's no need to compare horrible stuff
@@rexglucksburg yep there is no need, that is why we are moving forward and fight for better things with our own feet and hands, regardless of outside help, we Indonesian never embrace the slave and victim mentality. Be proud of that.
@@SpoonfedPig War crimes were committed by all parties. It was a different time. I had numerous discussions about this with especially my (rather racist) father when I was young. The older generation (pre war) pointed to the war crimes committed by the Indonesians as a legitimation of the invasion. My point was that that was not the point. It was colonialism. Then the reply came that the Dutch were needed to rebuild Indonesia. I then said that was besides the point. The Dutch wanted to earn money there over the backs of Indonesians. And so it went on and on and on.
Dutch elites (probably while rubbing nipples idk): We're sorry. Sorry. Sorry.
Dutch citizens: G E K O L O N I S E E R D
lmao
Dutch elites: We are sorry for our past and we shall make sure such horrors will never happen again.
Dutch citizens: We'll meet again, don't know where, don't know when. 🎵
Hey that was exactly what I said
I'm more worried about 22% of Belgians being proud of their crimes against humanity.
Being proud of our history has nothing to do with supporting colonialism. To even suggest that is stupid.
Thank you for bringing light to this dark history.
I do have one remark though.
The title of this video claims 50% of the Dutch people support colonialism, but the research you show asks a different question. Should the Dutch government apologise for the role in the slave trade?
I don't know if you did this to create a clickbait title but it at the very least disingenuous. I very much doubt even a tiny percentage of the Dutch people actively support colonialism.
You can tell this is a radical left youtuber. Rushing to conclusions as you mention, but also taking quotes of context. This is a person who is partially responsible for polarization.
The relationship between the dutch and the English in South Africa is interesting because both colonies did not like each other. You should do a video of South Africa
Also the Dutch in South Africa are more racist than the English. But I don't think we can deduct anything from that because the Rhodesians, who were British, were also super racist.
@@chesterdonnelly1212 maybe you are forgetting the netherlands only controlled the territory of the cape, The netherlands lost the colony the the english. the english expanded it. Also the "dutch" you are talking about is south africa dont have a connection to the netherlands for over 200 years and dont even speak the dutch language. So how is the netherlands to blaim for them?
@@Felixdeaap I don't blame the Netherlands for them. The Dutchmen of South Africa are their own ethnic group. Their connection to the Netherlands is through the VOC hundreds of years ago.
@@chesterdonnelly1212 Sorry i misunderstood you.
@@Felixdeaap no problem. I'm talking about different white ethnic groups in Southern Africa. But worse than the Afrikaans Boers was the Germans of Namibia. They were full out genocidal. Of course things are much better now.
As far as I could see the 50% was not about being proud about the colonial empire, just the empire in general. Maps like the one you showed at the start are tricky to interpret because getting data with a vague question will net you with vague answers. There is a good chance that Dutch respondents might've equated the Dutch Golden Age with the Empire and therefore think of the Moedernegotie in the northern european trade as something to be proud of, and think of colonialism as a sideshow in that era.
The questionnaire also does not elaborate on what era they talk about. Let me say this first: I am not a historian so I might be wrong in my reasoning, but I think it would be better to make it clear whether the questionaire aims at 1600-1750 or at 1880-1945 for example because you might get very different results.
I say this because I am Dutch too and I can see this easily being misinterpreted.
Most Dutch people, as most people in the world, know very little about their history, it's just not very interesting to them, and can't blame them. But it makes it easy for activists to plant the lie that the Golden Age was build on slavery. While the fact is (and you can research this) the first slave ships started sailing near the end of the period commonly considered the golden age. And slavery was becoming a successful enterprise half a century after the collapse of that period.
Heck, until 1667 Suriname wasn't even a Dutch colony, it was a British one. And it's funny that on his map he shows Manhattan and Suriname to be a colony at the same time. While they were exchanged for each other, so that never happened.
Tbf, most of us equate the Golden Age with the VOC, so I'm pretty sure in most people's minds colonialism must've at least come up when thinking of an answer.
@@DrTheRich Not just this, colonialism was almost universally seen as an economic necessity.
@@DrTheRich And most of the money was made in the Baltic Sea region. But these journeys weren't exotic and far away so don't get a lot of attention.
@@Benny_000 not if you include the Vikings their colonialism stretched all the way to the Spamish coast and the Balkans, and even North America
Heel belangrijke uitleg. Toch is er een verschil tussen koloniale trots, en acceptatie van slavernijverleden. De trots begrijp ik, in het lesmateriaal uit mijn tijd op basis- en middelbareschool ging vooral over de goede momenten, slavernij en de effecten ervan zouden daarin meer plek mogen krijgen. Er mag best laten zien worden dat voor al het moois, een grote groep mensen de prijs hebben betaald.
Hij wilt nederland and nederlanders in een slecht daglicht zetten. Hij is gewoon bij1 sympathisant
Ik heb een jaartje de geschiedenis lerarenopleiding gedaan en ik kan je verzekeren dat de nuance er aan zit te komen (de Canon van Nederland is aangepast: mensen in de ‘Gouden Eeuw’ die we vroeger als helden zagen worden nu meer weggezet als genuanceerde personen die soms ook slechte dingen hebben gedaan of verdedigd. Bijvoorbeeld wordt Michiel de Ruyter nu beschreven als een held voor ons, omdat hij ons beschermde tegen een Engels- Franse invasie vanaf zee, maar hij heeft voor de kust van Ghana ook slavenschepen beschermd en verdedigd tegen concurrerende landen). Het is alleen een beetje jammer dat in musea tegenwoordig het foute statement wordt gegeven dat Nederland _voornamelijk_ rijk is geworden door slavernij en kolonialisme (dit is onzin- de meeste Nederlanders waren en bleven straatarm in die tijd, ondanks het feit dat er wel een welvarende middenklasse ontstond), en dat steeds minder kinderen geschiedenis überhaupt interessant vinden.
Maar ik vind deze video wel een beetje misleidend; alsof we pas sinds drie jaar praten over de misdaden van de Nederlanders in Indonesië (en andere koloniën) en tijdens de slavernijtijd, en alsof we trots zijn op de onderdrukking en uitbuiting van andere volkeren puur omdat ons land in die tijd een ongeëvenaarde culturele en academische groei kende, en omdat we één van de meest open en tolerante samenlevingen waren vergeleken met de rest van Europa.
Not completely true, there were 2 seperate companies, the VOC, which didn't really use slaves, and the WIC, which actively used and traded slaves. Part of the reason we love the VOC and never mention the WIC.
Well the VOC didn't trade in slaves but they did take slaves from their African trading posts as personal slaves or for the workers on their Asian plantations.
The WIC was indeed the slave trader, populating the American cotton fields.
But the VOC did use slaver for their own spice and rice plantations.
Also the Africans were allready using and trading slaves before the white man came into Africa.
Before that the only known slaves in Europe were Christians by the Nordic and before that we had Ceasar who also used slaves.
0:31 Prince Albert made an apology for British involvement in the slave trade in 1840, through his speech to the Society for the Extinction of the Slave Trade, expressing the support of the Royal Family towards the British anti-slavery lobby. This is well documented, the Netherlands was not the first of the large slave traders to apologise.
In MODERN times they ofcourse where the first who did apologize and MEAND it! LOL. AND expressing a support for a british anti-slavery lobby is by far NOT an official apology, even if it came from god himself! Oh wait, it's a BRITISH prince, my apologies! Typical example of british megalognia, it's exactly the same reason GREAT britain is in decline for already decades on about every level. Your ignorance and arrogance are proverbia!
Well this video was so overly cherry picking to push for a 'certain' narrative that by that point you cant really expect him to have done proper research lol.
@@GodofGamesssyeh, the poll was literally about people who refuse to apologize for something they probably didnt partake in (colonialism) and the narrator says that “the dutch love colonialism” etc
@@sheersteak789 typical garbage from partisan TH-cam creators like this.
black pete has nothing to do with slavery, he wasnt even a slave. but i do get how its portrait nowadays and we could use it as an example of how beautiful our past was, yet how bad certain parts were. how we should celebrate it like sinterklaas, but also remember there were parts like black pete
There is actually a story about Saint Niclaus freeing black slaves, and them serving them freely from that moment on. Even so, that is not the actual story behind Black Pete. Black Pete originates in Afrika. It's a very long story how he came to be as he is now. Racism was not involved. But it's easy to get confused. I suggested in the past a few changes that Dutch would be fine with. They were shot down, with the words 'that entire holiday is racist, saint Niclaus is racist and it should be eradicated.' That is when I gave up.
The first country in the world to legalize abortion was the Soviet Union, not Netherlands.
VOC mentaliteit does not mean colonialism was good. It's about the trade mentality. I see the confusion, but you missed the meaning of what people say making the country some kind of rasist natiolalistic colonial power.
At the moment people coming to the netherlands do not have to learn Dutch exept for refugees, higher educasion is not in dutch, saint nicolas festivities have been destroied because of the guilt from the colonial era and a small group of people threathening people and munisipalities.
People do learn about colonialism and slabe trade and they did in the 70's.
Personally I think its important to be ok with a grey view. As a descendent of British aristocratics and colonists I simultaneously feel connected and proud of my history while simultaneously understanding the blood that history is built on and how lucky today. I think its not mostly helpful to make people feel really guilty and disconnected from the sins of there fathers but it is a problem when its white washed.
I think this is not to insight guilt on westerners, but to acknowledge that it happened and the empire and your country was build on that. I also think that reparations is a topic to be discussed.
not because a single person 100 years ago enslaved someones great father. But because the effects of slavery and racism are still on effect today, it's not on the individual it's on the social/macro scale. Is like having a race that someone is hadicaped for half of the race and than expect them catch up. but it's even worst because they were benefiting from the handicap in the first half of the race.
@@pedrocruz-ds6bj agreed. Though things like reparation and power changes i think are more difficult. I do note that many people have many different views, autonomy, symbols, language, and cultural revitalisation maybe sufficient for some. However i think most people would not be satisfied long term without a reduction in inequality. The trouble is systemic and targeted reductions is a formula we have not cracked. Short of that how much is enough, unless its a symbolic amount?
WW2 has a lot to answer for. The cartoon evil of the Nazis has allowed much of Western Europe to define themselves with national myths built around resistance/victimhood. The British, the french, the Dutch. All do it.
100%
Funny how they victimize themselves when the actual victim fights back
it's all about morality, the don't have one
Always find it funny how channels like these are dutch made, while only dutch people discuss the topic of the video in english together in de comments😂. (Im also dutch)
Grappig? Hoogst irritant, bedoel je zeker. Waarom 'we' dat doen? Omdat de Nederlanders altijd iedereen terwille willen zijn in een andere taal (lees: Engels), totdat het Nederlands straks niet meer bestaat. Doen de Duitsers dat, de Fransen? Neen, enkel de Nederlanders. Waarom? Omdat ze erbij willen horen of iets te verkopen hebben. Zo is ons volk. Zijn 'we' dáár trots op?
(Ja, het Engels is de 'lingua franca' van deze wereld. Ik weet het. Dat maakt het niet minder irritant.)
It is impressive to see the short exchange between a member of the parliament and the prime minister have such an impact. Cudos to both - the lady who addressed her ask in such a short yet clear way and the prime minister who, instead of answering at once by playing it down, admitted that he heard something that lasted an effect.
Why should anyone apologize for something they had no part in, to people who did not have a part in it to?
Why should I apologize neither I nor any in my family had a hand in? Honest question.
this apology all seems like political virtue signalling with no substance.
Because even if it was a few generations ago you still benefit from that past. Its not like the harm and the benefits of slavery just disappears when the next generation comes along. There is a reason we are still one of the richest countries in the world. We personally are not accountable for the tragedies of the past but we as a country should still acknowledge that past and how it still benefits us.
@@anoukk_Most people were piss poor in the Netherlands though and our biggest revenue was through the Baltic Sea Trade, not even the slave trade which was overall only a few percent.
@@anoukk_ maybe do some research, most people in the Netherlands were poor, or were part of serfdom themselves. My family didn't benefit. hush.
You don't have to apologize, but the Netherlands as a country does. We have benefitted greatly from injustices that our country has committed and economically, we still benefit.
@@anoukk_ The reason we're still one of the richest countries in the world, was not because of slavery... You've been lied to. The golden age was not build on slavery, as that only started at the end of that age, and without slavery in the period after, we would have been basically at the same spot today as we are now.
I would have liked to see which age groups think the government should apologize and which age groups don't. because there you can see the biggest shift. In the older generation the slave trade was never mentioned at school and only recent became part of the education system. this shows how important knowledge and education is in the believes of people.
Well,.. the older generation also have more fresh stories about the German occupation during world war II to consider. And be aware that labor was more harsh in the past. A current day civil servant investigating labor rules would start crying when they see how people worked in the sixties on the fields, or in the twenties in the mines. Things that happened during slavery feels a lot more alien to us today, than a century ago when live was harsher. So,.. I am not convinced that knowledge and education is the most important factor.
As to the importance of knowledge and education... do you think only the West aught to apologize for slavery? Or to make it even more narrow, do you think only the West aught to apologize for the Trans-Atlantic slavery? Why or why not?
I wonder what you consider as the older generation. The slave trade has been a significant part of the education system, at least since the early 1980s. We were also taught were the word slave comes from.
@@KeesBoons In all fairness,.. with 'the older generation' I am thinking of my parents who were from the silent generation (before the baby boom).
I guess some might consider that to be 'the ancient generation' now that I think of it.
Nonsense, the older generations had much better history education. Now young peopel who know absolutely nothing about Dutch history act like they have to teach and lecture them. But no, if your parents had to do slave labour in Germany government paying 200 million in subsidies to black peope, descendants of slaves or enslavers, is not the highest priority.
@@roelofjacobs5807 I sometimes get the feeling that anyone born in the previous century is considered old these days. It's not new that the youngest generation think themselves better than the previous ones. Fortunately we know one thing for sure. In not so many years this generation will be the "ancient" generation.
I think apologizing for the past using today's social standards is stupid, unnecessary, and counterproductive. Countries competed with one another then and used the methods available to them to gain an edge. Nowadays, countries have continued competing with one another the same way, though justifying their means through an alleged "democratic, inclusive" mentality. Perhaps in a couple of centuries, political leaders will be apologizing for the wrong things people did to each other in the first quarter of the 21st century. I believe it's stupid to think that way because societies change, and values and customs change. What you consider righteous today may be considered abhorrent in the future. Dutch history is beautiful!!
Slavery has always been wrong, and the train Atlantic slave trade was a scourge on European history. I mean, it creates the idea of race to justify it. This is inst a simple Oh it was some time ago let's forget it all people were bad anyway issue when just 30 years ago apartheid, remnants of that slavery system, continued to exist
Sftu peasant, he apologized because his family profit from them, And he still see the money the art they took!
When you make a mistake, you apologize for it. Don’t try separating today from then, talking about « the past » when the effects of that mistake are present today, as are those affected by that mistake. It wasn’t so long ago, and It’s only right to apologize.
@@dwnturn Funny how u whites wanna hold all the colonial stuff they stole, But u dont wanna apologies !!
We are talking about people's lifes. Not about countries. There are plenty of Dutch nationals, descendants of enslaved people. Don't those people deserve an apology from the state they are part of? In your logic, Germany does not have to apologise for killing hundreds of Jews?
Its interesting you go from the Dutch to the Germans with colonial past. And I can tell you why it isnt talked about a lot (in my schools history lessons this was definitely a topic btw), its partly bc for the past 80 years we have dealt majorly with our Nazi past, reparations, remembrance etc.
Colonial past is being discussed more and more but it is also important to check the scale. In Germany we had Otto von Bismarck in these times. He didnt like and didnt want colonies, he wanted a cohesive, functioning Germany first before looking outward. This is also why Germany was very late to the "colonial-sphere" and only joined hesitently because businessmen had set up their own private colonies and demanded safety from the German navy after increasingly being harassed by the big colonial powers and their Navies. Now mind you, this turned also into state run atrocities being committed which also have to be talked about, for sure.
But it is a much different history to the Dutch royal family, the Belgian royal family, the British royal family etc. systematically working towards colonial practices.
Again, this isnt to absolve of, diminsh or discredit any of this history but Germany has had bigger history to deal with and I would say it is all done a lot and very visible, Nazi history is very visible, East German history is very visible, and all the rest.
In Colonialism Germany really wasnt that big of a player, it was always more interesting gaining land adjacent to our borders than somewhere in Africa or Asia. It was also done but on a much different scale and managed a lot different from actual colonial powers. Not to mention Germany's colonial history was comparably very short. Joined the scramble for Africa very late and due to First and Second World War was out of it very early as well.
Its like with Americas Slavery history. Germany has its history with Jews and America with African Americans, former Royal colonial powers like NL, UK or Portugal with slavery and exploitation there.
We also have things like the Artifacts from Museums (the example of the Benin Bronze's recently returned were like much of German museum artifacts bought from the British who had stolen it) being returned and generally an awareness thats growing which is also very important.
lothar von trotha 👎
True. Mixed luck in case of management. Askari were doing good under German rule they could be generals in army if they proved themselves. But there was one colony with very racist management in which black people were nothing but a prey hunted for sport.
2:14 Little resistance? The Netherlands had the 'februaristaking', which was brutally suppressed. It is estimated that 10.000 people joint the protests, of which 9 people died.
Didn't the Germans also carry out mass executions to threaten protestors?
it's just how you look at it
Our organised resistance group was also the largest out of all Western European countries, in ratio to population numbers. It’s said that the Germans needed more manpower to control the Dutch resistance than they did to control the French resistance. And yeah, most people weren’t and aren’t heroes who will risk their and their family’s lives for strangers, go figure… I hate that this ‘new’ perspective on wwII and the Dutch Resistance is that if you didn’t actively protest against the razzias or German occupation it means you supported it. Most people knew that the fate of the Jews would be terrible, and through personal letters and diary entries it is proven that they felt for them, even though the holocaust itself was a well- kept secret. And especially after the February Strike people didn’t openly protest anymore, which is why the Resistance moved underground.
Balkenende, our former PM, said "VOC mentality", not colonial mentality. Huge difference.
Slavery is a dark page in history. When the politician said that she hopes that nobody would forget the second world war in the future, I understood what she meant. The thing is that lessons learned in the past when big (terrible) things happened will fade in time. People can connect to historic events to a certain extend. People who live today did not experience, nor are responsible, for terrible things that happened very long ago. I think that is why a big group of Dutch people did not feel the need to apologize.
It's all about who people can blame for their current misfortunes and to alow them to claim for reparations even though their only experiences from these events came from the story's that their grandparents told them, while others dont even have that but jump on the bandwagon because of the color of their skin.
And this is one of the big reasons the Dutch people dont want to apologize. Apologizing means accepting guilt and there for opening yourself to these claims.
Slavery is a page in history that too often focuses on the last few hunderd years, but forget the suffering of the last 3000 years, cause African slave trading was a thing all the way back in the Roman era...
Also the focus is too much on black slaves and not on the millions of white Christian slaves that were enslaved by northern Africans over the last 1000 years...
The history of Slavery is nuanced and complex, yet the political left tries to Black Wash it and it disgusts me
As someone said in the comments its just a big spectacle to stroke everyone's egos.
@@teaser6089Belanda Bajingan kamu anggap wajar perbudakan?
Germany paid €1,000,000,000 to Namibia as compensation.
It's never enough. People like this guy will always feel the need to start race wars over petty 1 sided history
If true, thats a mistake. Than this apology non-sence will never end....
I don't need to apologize for what my forefathers did since I didn't do it, and expecting me to apologize for something I didn't do is disrespectful.
No one asked you to.
@@NexuJin k
@@uploadinshitnstuffQuem vive de passado é museu, o tempo passou e não vai voltar, ninguém tem que se desculpar com ninguém porque outros fizeram
You sure like to live on the wealth they take. Or you are okey if inmigrants came becuae of the state you leave them
Do you know that Indonesia has to pay 4, 5 million gulden for its independence to the Dutch, and it's only paid off along with interest by Indonesia in 2003?
Anton de Kom should ask what Surinam is worth now it's has been independent for almost 50 years. My granddad left for Amsterdam the day they got their indepence, his best decision ever.
Surinam was gifted 3,5 billion guilders when they got their independence(7,4 billion euro's on a population of 370k, 18k euro per inhabitant) and they managed to piss it down the drain. The demand for apology is nothing more than a trap to ask for reparations(to apologize is to take blame, to take blame is to compensate), which makes my former countrymen just come off as greedy.
It's too generalizing to state 'the Surinamese Dutch wanted the government to acknowledge this history', as I'm one of them and I don't precisely because it paints blacks as greedy.
At the same time it's cutting far too much corners to just state 'the Netherlands only got their riches because of colonialism', not in the last place because all and every wealth this country had was eradicated by French and German invasions, but most riches came from the early-capitalist mercantilism & proto-stock market the invented. This allowed the Dutch middle-class to invest just like the nobles could(allowing for a far greater amount of investment) and spread risk. Slavery was just one of those things to invest in.
Last but not least: Black Pete has the same origins as Central European Krampus, Slavic Perchta, and even the Germanic/Scandinavic Ravens of Wodan/Odin(presumably because Europe used to be inhabited by blue-eyes but darkskinned humans in the stone age, which may have become part of myths and folklore). Over the centuries the caricature was just modeled after black slaves, because that's the only dark skinned people the Dutch knew.
In short, yes colonialism was bad, but instead of dwelling in the past and take every racist remark as evidence of not only systemic racism, but using it as an argument and tool for affirmitive action/privileges, is just repeating the history all over again, only with the arrow of racism in a different direction. Because the opposite of racism isn't 'anti-racism', it's _ no racism_
Imagine leaving the first and longest lasting empire out of the conversation 🤦♂️
0:33 Barbary Privateers took over 1,2 Millions slaves from Europe...
Dutch Government only took full responsibility of the Colonies since 1790, before that time it were companies, owning colonies.
In The Netherlands, serfdom was banned in 1781.
Why should the average Dutch person apologize for somthing they did not take part in I'm Dutch-Surinamese and I don't blame the Dutch 1/3 of slave owners were Jewish from Portugal, spain and eastern europe..
Who told you to apologize?
Just Accept or Recognize that DUTCH were colonial power with Bad history as past.!
.
Can you Do that?
No need to apologize .. If you were brave enough to be accepting then You won't be crying over here.
Do you have a source for saying that 1/3 of slave owners were Jewish?
I agree, but thats not what the video is saying though? It's the government and the monarchy that apologise. It's not your neighbour Kees who has to apologise to his Surinamese neighbours. The whole point of is this isn't so much to litteraly apologize for something you did, or to pay reperations or anything, it is to raise awareness about a bad thing that happened in history. Why is that important? so that people know WHY it was bad and that it should never happen again.
True, Dutch people shouldnt apologize, but because the government subsidised slave trade heavily, some might think they need to apologize. You cannot hold the average dutchman accountable for what happened. but because the government isn't a person, they can.
Can't they express remorse for the harm done by slavery and colonialism while at the same time being proud of their successful colonial history? This doesn't make them hypocritical, life and history is complex. Nothing should be painted with a such a broad brush as totally bad or good.
Remorse for slavery but simultaneously being proud of it, you are right nothing is ever black and white but European chattel slavery was probably the most black and white form of slavery ever
Huh weird how they didn’t also poll Austrians, Portuguese, Danish, Swedish, and Russians about their empires
Did the Austrians have slaves?
@@okene Yes
Arab and Asian empires laughing.
Russia was not colonial, all the ethnic minority provinces were equal parts of the empires and not second class colonial subjects.
So I respectfully disagree. I’ll talk about the introduction of the video because I think that is what most of your arguments are based on -correct me if I’m wrong-. I am Dutch btw.
In the video you stated that Balkenende claims the dutch need more of a colonial mindset, but in the video he stated the VOC mindset I haven’t looked up the original speech or his writings, but I doubt he literally said “colonial mindset”. I think he is not referring to the colonial mindset, I think Balkenende is referring to the entrepreneurial spirit. I feel like you are conflating the issue by implying that he is actively saying that The Netherlands should be pursuing slavery to become a global superpower.
When I was younger and I was following history lessons about the VOC I was also impressed by the grandiosity and felt proud of the idea of having created a global trading monopoly because it is impressive, just like the Rockefeller empire was impressive and just like start wars viewers might think the death star is impressive but the idea of grandiosity and being proud of it is distinct from thinking that slavery is good or bad, then you might say well they used slavery to get to that grandiosity. I think you cannot judge the concept of slavery in our present context because it was considered “normal” in the 17th century, because if you do you need to put it in perspective and when you try to put it in perspective you’ll find that every country depending on their position of power would have applied slavery, I believe that if Suriname had a superior navy, trade structure and entrepreneurial spirit they would apply slavery just the same and Suriname just like other. Don’t get me wrong I realize the role The Dutch played, my history teacher called the golden age both the greatest age and the darkest page of our history.
Me personally I don’t like to apologize for slavery, it’s like fighting over an offense I did not give, against those who were not alive to be offended, I would be apologizing for something I don’t feel sorry for. How does making a population apologize for something like this help progress the issue? You imply that 50% of the Dutch population has colonial pride, but I don’t think 50% of the population is proud of colonialism, I think they are proud of the grandiosity of the VOC and the impact they were able to make on the world as such a small country. Which is wholly different from saying that 50% of the Dutch populace supports slavery making the implicit argument that they then are evil.
I just think 50% of the population does not want to apologize for something they didn’t do.
I think Dutch people in general don't support colonialism, bit of a misleading title. Most people in the netherlands don't think people nowadays should apologise for something we had nothing to do with. Struggling working people in the netherlands can be rubbed the wrong way when they are being told that they became rich because of slavery and should feel ashamed.
I have a friend from Suriname, who told me he is proud of his dutch heritage.
the fact that colonialisation happened all over the world in all sorts of societies and races, basically the whole world should apologize
Are territorial wars the same as colonization? For example is the Alsace region of France a colony? If so then yes you are right but if not then probably not right
@@jacksevert3099 what u suggesting? wars are wars, if its territorial or colonial it doesnt matter point blank period!
The point is no to apologise but to learn from the inhumane activities in the past and learn from them
@@UserHandle454except Europeans seem to be the only people forced through this humiliation ritual.
The prime minister Balkende saying we need to go back to the VOC mentality also means going back to enterpreunership, not necesarilly slave trade. VoC ofcourse traded slaves, but had more of an emphasis on transporting spices rather than enslaving local population and selling them (Ofcourse, they did that as well, but I don't think it was goal number 1 of the VoC)
As a Dutch person this video absolutely disgusts mee. Im not proud of these apologies and I am proud of my heritage
Gekolonised
Based
my guy liking our former colonial empire is not supporting it, its because we noticed how much we lost when we lost the territories and the fact a small country like the netherlands was capable of creating such a giant empire
0:07 what about 🇵🇹Portugal - they literally had like the 4th biggest empire of Europe! 😂
Same for Sweden and Denmark. Albeit a lot smaller. With islands in the Caribbean and trading posts from Africa to India.
the source he has didn't reference Portugal. it only had data about Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Belgium,
Germany, and Japan. bit of a miss I agree but you can only work with the data you have
@@ToastieBRRRNlol we sweds killed 1/4 Poland population 1656-1660. We never apologized to them and never will so dont expect us to give a shit about some stupid island because the people who lived where black.
Same goes for the Kingdom of Kongo (although not European but by far the biggest "supplier" of slaves in those days) which always gets left out conveniently.
It’s not that we are proud of it but if u think about it it is kind of impressive that such a small country had such a big impact on the world in that time, also think it is a bit of a stretch that the prime minister and the king have to apologize for something they have nothing to do with 400 years ago (no hate, this is my opinion, let me know if I’m wrong or if there is something I need to know)
In my opinion there is a BIG difference between, approving or even celebrating colonialism/slavery and not agreeing that we need to apologise.
I don't believe anyone should be forced to apologise for something they themselves did not do. People are not responsible for what their forefathers did.
We DO need to acknowledge that this happened and condemn these actions. No, ignoring dark chapters in history, no weak ass justification and excuses.
Exactly, why should i apologise for the bad things great grand father might have done? Sure i can accept that many off those actions in the past are not how we would like them to be, but it happened and saying sorry now doesn't change the past.
they have a lot to be proud of it isnt easy building an empire, be proud of it
hello fellow based fumo pfp
@@freetime5803 omg haiiiiiiiii :3
Not wanting to apologise for slavery has nothing to do with liking colonialism, it's got everything to do with logic and justice- the same reason you don't apologise when you aren't guilty but someone else is.
The call for an 'east india' mentality is out if context and you have to be very facetious and pretentious to misinterpret the melodramatic rally call for an ambitious, global approach as something that's pro-colonialism.
I think it is disingenuous to suggest that pointing that comment out was meant to imply that Balkenende was in favor of colonialism. You can easily acknowledge that that is not the case while still examining that statement with a critical lens.
Indeed, with calling for a east india company mentality Balkenende was referring to a positive 'can do' attitude, not calling for the establishment of a colonial empire or reinstituting slavery. Showing that clip without context is a bit disingenuous.
I mean that's about as tactful as if a German called pan-European politics thevstrife for the Wehrmacht-mentality.
Those clearly aren't the type of associations you want to have.
@@Alias_Anybody If we're going down that road 'deutsche gründlichkeit' is now also banned.
The thing that made me think was the example where if my parents had stolen a bunch of money and then I had inherited that money, would it be okay for me to keep that money? Absolutely not. The sensible thing would be to pay back everything that was taken, but as that's just not going to happen, apologies and acknowleding where our wealth comes from would be the absolute minimum we could do. Not too long ago I was in a museum about the Dutch invasion and occupation of Indonesia, and seeing that whilst I have (distant-ish) family in Ukraine just hit differently.
The wealth former colonial nations have now was built upon the exploitation of their colonies. These countries are poor because their national resources, labor was imported very cheaply to your countries. You inherited that ill-gotten wealth in the form of the advanced society you’re living in. I don’t say this to make you feel ashamed, you shouldn’t, but we could do better than saying past atrocities have nothing to do with us. For more information, check out the concept of unequal exchange.
Next poll should be about modern African states apologizing to the victim tribes that inhabit their territory and who were sold off to the European colonial powers as slaves by other local tribes who had the power (and culture) to do so.
I think the whole historical issue of the slave trade is by far more complex than just saying "White Man bad" and expecting an apology from European nations. You don't hear the same pressure on the issue about the Arab nations doing the exact same thing to African peoples, or even Turkey's infamously ruthless Istanbul Slave Markets. Why? Talk about cherry picking your problems.
Slavery is a horrible thing and shouldn't be tolerated. NOWADAYS. Asking for forgiveness on such an historic topic is incredibly useless and I could think of a number of more useful wastes of time and money, like actually doing something to combat racism in the HERE AND NOW, rather than stomping your feet and demand some superficial apologies.
But hey, whatever makes you guys feel good about yourselves, I guess.
Signed: A descendant of slaves.
Victimhood mentality is what they are looking for, everybody wants to be a victim nowadays, plus the fact they wanna change history by only telling certain parts, they would never ask the people from Algeria, Morocco and Tunis (The Barbary Coast Slave Trade) to apologize for the WHITE CHRiSTIAN slaves they kidnapped from European countries including my country The Netherlands. I dont care though cause it happened and we should look to the future, but it shows how selective they are in what history people should know.
i dont see why would they not suport it, im portugize and im 100% pround of our colonial empire
I'm looking forward to the videos on German Colonialism. Most fascinating for me was the lack of government control in many cases and the military ignoring direct orders. It's exactly what Bismarck did for the 1870 war with France and there are many examples of Prussian military saying "Yes, sure" but omitting the "but honestly, not really, nah mate." or straight up saying "You're just a civilian - talk to the hand"
And what about the Belgium colonialism in African KONGO......??
@@Aleksandr-1920 The Belgian government was outraged at the poor living conditions in the Congo. Leopold did something wrong.
@@Aleksandr-1920Leopold was at part with Hitler and Stalin when it comes to genocide.
@@Aleksandr-1920are you fucking kidding me
@@Aleksandr-1920literalmente o cara matou mais que Hitler.
E pior, os que não morriam eram torturados.
Name me one nation from the past that never had slaves , in WW2 lots of European man where forced to work in Germany, even now ( Qatar) and people forced to work for long hours for next to nothing is just a different kind of slavery .
Meanwhile the Turks or Russians that are proud of their empires 💹💹💹
your greek empire was great 🇬🇷🤝🏿🇹🇷
The Russians don't have exactly an empire. They simply assimilated the natives and there is currently almost no other national feeling in Siberia than the Russian one.
That’s interesting huh, how Dutch people can’t be proud of their country because our ancestors traded slaves, but the Turks who have famously had one of the biggest slave trade networks off all time can be proud without having to feel ashamed
@@denjul_ Its also crazy to me how almost no one knows about the white slave trade. But it seems like only European histories are bad in the eyes of the public 😬
Russians are so proud of their historical empire, they even try to bring it back by invading their neighbours.
It continually amazes me how often people will take a complicated and nuanced subject, laser focus in on one aspect that suits their narrative, address that aspect alone, and ignore everything that doesn't fit with the narrative. To be against colonialism is to be against collective administration. Colonialism encompass everything from when the first homes came under a collective administration of a village, and everything since.
if your not from the netherlands, i would honestly just disregard this entire video. There are ofcourse allot of thrue points in the video, but allot of the things he says are twisted to further his political views.
But people are proud of the courage it took for such a small population to settle around the planet, not about the commercial practises involved...
I don’t understand this whole agenda of looking negatively at European nations when everything was done at a different time period where it was all considered normal and all done to get ahead and advance the nations which is why we have the advance and we’ll built infrastructure and society’s we have today we owe it to our ancestors for having that get ahead attitude and being the strongest and smartness in the world. Nothing to be ashamed of to me it should be celebrated. Everyone today is enjoying the fruits of this past including people that claim to be from slavery even tho they know nothing of it and never been themselfs yet act like victims not all but some.
As an south american, I think it's funny to see that awareness and reparations is focused towards europeans countries. Like, beesh... what about the slave routes made by arabs in north africa? What about the analogous slave workers occurring in China, even today? Enslavement was the common place for milenia. Is not possible to people ONLY see to europeans and seek for "justice" only against them.
As far I study history, I see that enslavement happened all over the world (still happens today) and only with christinanity morals and catholic church the world gradually started to stop to kill disabled babies, stop to enslave people, and so on. Secular people nowadays are in their core christians in their morals and even don't have a clue about it. And all those social movements are artificially made up globally and have a plan, it have goals and it have clear targets.
I'm tired that every problem we face today has roots since XVII century, and the global elite has been pushing their agenda since final of XIX century. But imagine speak about this, without people get mad at you instead with the message/reality.
I'm Dutch and my stance has always been: An apology costs nothing. The admission of one's faults, especially when it consists of knowingly and willingly causing suffering to others, should never be avoided. For how can we do what is right, if we do not acknowledge what is wrong? I hope that this change in our broader Dutch society will continue, and I hope that these admissions of guilt by the prime minister and the King help both the healing process for the descendants of the victims and the reconciliation process between us.
Foremost should be the present and the future. That modern humanity creates a better global society where such things don't happen. A world where no human being suffers starvation or exploitation and we can all live in safety and with dignity. We aren't there yet and it will probably still take a while, but slowly but certainly, through thousands of years, we are making our way to it. And that wish (which was born from the first humans who suffered) is something those with kind hearts should never forget. The universe is cold and unforgiving, so it is up to us not to be.
An apology is not cost-free. Showing submission to those weaker than you out of spite, is a sign of weakness, and other nations like China will see this display of self-loathing as a sign that they can displace the West as the most powerful geopolitical force. They (correctly) estimate that the average willingness to fight for our leading position in the world is lower than theirs. Not good. I don't give a fuck about wether ex-colonial subject nations want apologies from us. I care about keeping the national morale and patriottic pride and a willingness to fight for our self-interest high, by whatever means necessary.
History should work like this: rational analysis of past events to make sense of the present, when employed as a field of systematic academic study. But the way it should be taught in schools should be emphasising glorious events and relegating shameful events to the back pages - because there the function is to keep national morale high.
@@classicallpvault8251 I think it's sad you think an apology is an act of submission. I don't care what you do in the bedroom, but as far as "being the most powerful geopolitical force" is concerned, I think you are extremely cynical to believe it depends on dominance and subjugation, which in turn you think depends on propagandist "patriotic" education. That very style of education is what brought modern day Russia to Ukraine. Not at all the road any free democracy should envision for itself.
I believe the reason the West has been the foremost global superpower is because for the past 75 years, they have brought relative peace and stability to a world unanimously exhausted by world war 2. The US' naval doctrine keeping the seas safe and open, globalization of commerce has brought prosperity to more people than ever before in human history. Global legalism through the UN and other multinational organizations. These are not acts of DOMINATION, but rather of mutual benefit, and nobody except for Russia and China (the US' nearest peers) have anything to gain from destroying the stability brought about by Western hegemony.
And that's why Russia tries to rock the boat, creating global fuel and food crises and exacerbating other downward financial pressures. Because as everyone battens down the hatches and limits their empathy, it will be the poor countries who will suffer the most. And those countries might become inclined to oppose the existing world order (centered around international law and the UN) just to get out of stormy weather themselves.
The King is just the man whom is permitted to wear the crown. There have been many Kings whom refused to relinquish their crown, only to lose their head along with it. And if you think geopolitics is any different, then you've not rationally analyzed the past.
We are a collective of 17 million people and a continuation of the society of millions more that lived before us. We are the consciousness of this political entity. Surely we should be proud of our accomplishments, but we should also be cognizant of our mistakes. We shouldn't just see the world from our "lofty" position. THAT is how we find a united way forward. Because an egotist (whether it's a person or a country) does not know what others want, and will always end up becoming the enemy of, and being outnumbered by, those who do.
@@classicallpvault8251 westoid
@@classicallpvault8251 "I don't give a fuck about wether ex-colonial subject nations want apologies from us. I care about keeping the national morale and patriottic pride and a willingness to fight for our self-interest high, by whatever means necessary".
Spoken in the true spirit of VOC mentality. It's good to see this kind of mentality is a dying breed. Trying to hide your "shameful events" from the past, and current, is exactly what a country like China does. Hiding their shame, despite everyone knows about them.
@@jdumpingplace2517incredible response I'm sure his world view is shook and destroyed right now
And as Economist Dr. Thomas Sowell points out, slavery was a world institution for thousands of years and the transatlantic slave trade was relatively brief compared to the muslim slave trade. Europeans primarily the British and French ended the trade and practice by the early 1830s while the african muslims dudnt abolish slavery until the 1960s an 80s.
nobody should apologise for actions they did not commit. an apology means and amounts to nothing
The Dutch people do recognize the colonial past, do know it wasn't right. But see no need in making apologies now. They have no meaning and no slave owners or slaves are involved today. Everyone in the Netherlands has equal rights right now and has the opportunity to make something great out of their life. In history, all people, of all races have been enslaved, which will get me to black pete soon (because you're wrong on the connections to it and how this character came to be). In any case, it was a different time back then and while in some cultures actual slavery is still happening (who cares right?), it's long gone for everyone here and people are proud of the ancestors who in that time, made our tiny country so strong and thriving. In a time where slavery was unfortunately still seen as an every day, acceptable thing. No one here will say it is now. That's the point. We now live with equal rights and honor the same flag (or at least we should), for a better society. Not play victims from any side.
Now to Black Pete. In the 16th centrury there was already a tradition in (middle-)Europe involving St. Nicolas. Playing both the role of good and bad. To make it so he could just be the good guy, they added a demon called Krampus to go along with him. The so called evil guy. Also a character that made it so originally Black Pete carried "de roe" around. And was also known to put the bad behaving kids in a bag and take them to the forest.
Later, in the area of europe where we live at least, they wanted a human figure to take over that role. Which became Black Pete. Black Pete is based on the Moors. Which were historically a good fit for the evil role. Black muslim pirates who at that time occupied Spain. (Hence the saying that if kids don't behave, they'll take them back to Spain, and don't forget those fancy clothes as well.)
These Moors went along the European coast lines to, in contrary to what people claim Black Pete is, actually plunder, murder, rape and enslave white men, women and children. It's based on the enslavement of white people. Black Pete eventually came into existance due to Krampus and the influence the Moors have had on us and has now been made into a fun, friendly figure that kids of all races and backgrounds love. No one, no news outlet, no politician or UN elite has done research on this and use an either ignorant, or an actual on purpose lie as a polarising matter to create another "Oppressor and Victim" mentality in our society.
The point is that the way we are colonial was very different to that of the british. We were much more trade oriented rather than dominance oriented
black pete & st nicholas are based on the (greek, indo-european) dioskuroi (gog & magog) a juggler (darkred mars) and a magician (brightwhite venus). much older then you think, however its true 16th century it was applied to spain and moors but the catholic tradition is older too. It originates to germanicus ^ twin^ sons martyred on Pandateria, banditland (land of exiles). Nero JC & Drusus JC, their remains were brought back to rome by their brother Gaius JC (caligula). This started a tradition, saints coming to town ( the arrival of nicholas and his knight). They are in revelations as the 2 witnesses exposed in public after been killed what compares to the obsolete sons of zebedee.
A modern day telling is Peter Pan & tinkerbell (swordbearer and lightbearer) Cpt Hook & Mr Smee . The lost boys (just like the 3 little piglets) relate to germanicus (cornelius) sons.
Why shouldn’t the Dutch be proud of their past ? That such a small nation managed to conquer so many territories is admirable in itself
Like a bully being proud about their subjects?
Admirable about what? Kill,rape snd torture our ancestors is s thing to be proud of? Come to our country we will gladly welcome you again, not that you will leave unharmed that is.
You treat people you deemed as lower than you and treated them worse then animals not very prideful isn't it, ignorance is bliss
As someone is enjoys and feels something like a sort of pride for my countries Empire (UK) I do recognize the sheer brutally, violence, exploitation and wrong doings that had come with the British empire. I would never wish for the empire to return but I do recognize that this small island conquered so much land and territory.
Its like Mongolia, a nation of 3 million people are descendants of an empire that conquered nearly half the world and also killed millions and terrorized half the planet, but Mongolians are still proud of their history because this harsh landscape inhabited by 3 million residents are descendants of one of the world's best empires.
Black Dutch citizens who want to see money these days is not for recovering or emotional damage, it´s pure greed.
You are forgetting the main point as to why most of the Dutch didn't want to apologize.
The people who are asking for an apology are people who haven't suffered slavery. They know that if the state acknowledges and apologizes they might get money out of it in forms of claims. The modern Dutch people refuse to pay for something that ended 160 years ago. There is nobody alive from that time. All the people who claim slavery is the reason they are not performing well in 2023 are people who think everything miserable in their life is because of something 160 years ago. They are lazy. Get to work. There is no country easier to live then the Netherlands. If you can't succeed in the Netherlands no where else you will succeed either.
Dude! It's not just about making it in a country. I am Indian. My country was fucked over by British, we were one of prosperous countries and they didn't competed economically but by lying déceit and treachery.
And it's just not about making it in a country. There is life beyond job and money.
I have settled here in Europe and let me you, the limitations you have culturally and lifestyle often puts you in back seat.
Perception matters, an average British or European guy is considered as a posh sophisticated guy mostly cause they have means to do lot of things that are simply out of reach to others.
As an Indian, we are always seen as either meek and cheap labour or online harassers "bobs and vagene" stereotype.
What about the people in Indonesia, and how Indonesia was absolutely milked dry of its recourses by the Netherlands? And is not only a country that has been riddled with instability since it got its independence, but would not have been a third world country if it weren’t for Dutch Colonialism. You calling the Indonesians lazy? A people who deal with poverty daily yet fight through it with grit and will. That’s what the Dutch people don’t want to acknowledge, nor want to be sorry for. You have a perverted sentiment to justify that.
@@rajanlad correct.
When in Rome do as the Romans do.
You go to a European country and want to continue in your own cultural fascion. This doesn't work. You need to integrate. As long as you behave and act as if you were in India in Europe nobody will accept you. And this works both ways. If i act Dutch in India i will have problems as well. Has nothing to do with past transgressions and stereotypes.
@@kippesnikkel5217 oh yeah, you such a good person, that your lack of smirkness is apparent from your comment
Important video, it supports the idea that there are no fixed roles for states as heroes and villains. A state can be a hero and a villain at the same time, e.g. the US saving Europe in WWII but at the same time having severe racial segregation at home.
US saving Europe lmao it was a joint effort
@@JoshYxVdM Ofc it was but I meant they got involved on the right side of history
@@JoshYxVdMbruv let’s not fool anyone the US did save europe
@vegetableman3911 no even without the US, Germany would still have lost. Of course they'd have lost to the Soviets whom would have taken all land to the pyrenees, but they would have eventually collapsed anyway because communism can't into economy.
@@mappingshaman5280 let’s talk big picture here. I don’t just mean direct US intervention in the war, I mean all of their aid to allied nations like the UK and the Soviets. Now as a Brit, it can be hard to admit it but I’m fairly sure that without US help, we may not have fallen, but would definitely have been reduced to a negligible threat to the Germans. We didn’t have the capacity to carry out offensive operations against the theatres where the Germans were present, and until the invasion of Russia, that was very much true. Africa was a desperate battle after Rommel joined, and one of the main reasons we were able to outlast his supply and drive him back twice was because the US had sent armoured vehicles to reinforce our units. And the Soviets. They too received an immense amount of supply from both the US and the UK in terms of food, small arms, aircraft, vehicles etc. While this aid likely wasn’t a deciding factor in their victory, with the Luftwaffe able to exercise more control without the threat of British bombing raids (as happened frequently in our time), I believe that it’s likely German troops are able to advance faster than we saw. I believe with the extra supply and greater advantage of less materiel and personnel directed to fighting the Commonwealth, I think an axis victory is more likely than not. And, giving an educated opinion, I think that Commonwealth competence and performance to successfully resist the Axis on multiple fronts was largely dependent of US resources and aid.
Black peet is a tradition that cannot be changed. - a dutch citizen
You f-cking know he doesn't mean ''colonialism'' when talking about the VOC ''mentality'', it's about showing strength again as a small country being able to be so powerful.
That might be the logical conclusion for you. But for people coming from former colonies that is probably not what they hear in those words.
@@yourineeven8457 The VOC heydays were about trade, trading outposts and having favourable relationships with local rulers by using military means. Colonialism and ruling native people was not much of a thing in those times, that only really started later with the need for large amounts of tropical cash crops (which needs lots of workers and land).
Bro cited his own research 😭
You’re forgetting Belgium and it’s 23% support for the Congo
As a Belgian celebrity once sang in a song ‘waar zijn die handjes’
What does that mean? Google Translate result makes no sense in the context
@@y-yyy "where are those (little) hands". There is a famous picture of a father sitting on a porch, looking at his daughters' severed hands in front of him, as punishment. The cutting off of childrens' hands was not uncommon to force obedience
@@Lemmy_Kilturtle Thanks a lot, now I understand! Found the picture, horrifying...
their support is for the belgian congo, not the Leopoldian state.
@@Lemmy_Kilturtlenope not true. Cutting hands of the living was not a policy, indigenous soldiers sometimes did it when europeans were not around to cheat when they used a lot of bullets to hunt. Read the Casement Report, the hand cutting was more complex. The people you saw in the pictures were interviewed. They say soldiers shot them during fights. They seemed dead, so the soldiers took their hands. But they were not dead, and survived but without their hand.
Reparations, that's in the end what this is all about: Money.
According to the descendants their ancestors suffered so much under colonial rule yet, as you said, immigrated to the overlord country upon gaining independence. And nobody raises an eyebrow to that logic? Of course people that go to the big universities where the idea grow so much more popular are privileged enough that it doesn't affect them much that reparations will be payed out of tax money so they support it easily because then they can be "doing the right thing" and "striving for justice" and get a feeling of self-fulfilment money can't buy them yet they would never propose to pay it themselves "it's the responsibility of the nation" as if everybody's sitting on savings of some wealthy great great great grandfather who worked at the VOC even though it was only a small portion of the population that worked there, and that's assuming every family that got rich off it stayed in the country.
Flawed premise. Immigration of the colonized and their descendants to the colonizer country is the obvious outcome and, in my opinion, one of the prices a colonizing nation must pay. There would be no black people in Suriname (and indeed, no Suriname at all) were it not for the Dutch's role in the slave trade; uprooting a nation's worth of people to the other side of the world, imposing Dutch culture and hierarchical supremacy upon them, and raking in the profits of the labor of the colonized leads directly to some of these people seeing the former colonizing country with both familiarity (even if alongside a backdrop of resentment due to historical institutional oppression), and, most crucially, better financial opportunities than the formerly colonized nation.
So no, genius, nobody raises an eyebrow to that logic because it is evident it would've happened-or do you genuinely believe descendants of Africans forcibly transplanted by the Netherlands to an underdeveloped South American colony would all choose to stay in the remnants of a pillaged land or go live in the same country that forcibly gave them their language at the same time they became richer off their backs?
@@fernandoc5536 Yet the dutch did little in imposing their culture to the point most former colonies didn't even end up speaking the language.
Colonialism is used as an easy excuse to give up before trying, there have been countries who managed to gain independence and make something of themselves and those that didn't and even countries like Ethiopia that managed to avoid getting colonized in the midst of the scramble for Africa still has similar issues to the rest of the continent, heck some countries after independence were doing well in terms of prosperity after decolonisation but have since stopped doing so. are we going to keep saying it's all because of that forever even though now it has already been over half a century?
@@saifors "over half a century" what are you 6 years old that you think 50 years is a long time?
@@rammusannus5364 70 years is quite a long ass time considering people who would have been old enough to remember anything of that time are either dead or can die at any moment, yeah, I consider an entire human lifetime a long time, I'm not some cosmic being looking upon time at the scale of how long the universe has been around.