I don't understand why the split thing should be difficult for people to grasp. It works the same at a gas station. If you are pumping and someone pulls up directly across from you and starts pumping, the pump speed decreases significantly, when they pull off, it goes back up. Same thing. Nice vid.
Keep in mind that the manufacturers you mentioned who have 800 volt systems, don’t have the necessary data to fully inform their decisions balancing battery life and charging speed. This can explain why a new owner might see some adjustments in their charging curves over time.
I think the issue also starts with the automaker. We've seen this a number of times, where automakers have told owners the chargers they needed to use in order to achieve their max charging. Chevy originally told Bolt EV owners that they needed to use "80 kW" chargers to reach their max rate, which was actually only ~55 kW. Hyundai/KIA did the same thing, and we now have tons of E-GMP EV drivers thinking that they can charge at 350 kW.
Hold on...but EGMP cars can use the higher speed chargers to their advantage. Why would not use an EA 350 kW charger as an EGMP owner if one is available? I agree that seeing Bolt owners on 350's or anything if you are at a single post charger is mildly infuriating, but I am not sure how you dragged the EGMP crown into the realms of high power abusers.
@@realev21 Who said "abusers"? I said the automakers are communicating charging capabilities in a confusing way. I've seen a ton of E-GMP drivers upset because they aren't charging at 350 kW because that's what Hyundai/KIA told them they would get. No, they are still peaking at 235-245 kW on a 350 kW charger, just as Bolt EV drivers are peaking at 55-57 kW on 80 kW chargers. However, both cars need to plug into chargers with those respective power ratings in order to see their peak charging speeds. I know E-GMP owners are a little self-conscious on this topic because they want to hit their peak charging speeds even though they only save a couple of minutes by using 350 kW (while other EVs can save 10 to 30 minutes by using the 350 kW), but that wasn't what I was referring to here. I'm simply saying that the car's charging capabilities were poorly communicated by the automakers, causing confusion.
As far as Tesla chargers go, if the cable is thick like a CCS charger, it’s Version 2. It’s why, as a Tesla owner, I avoid Version 2 and CCS if possible.
I do agree that charger labeling needs to be standardized, but it's a balancing act between completely misleading the consumer and dumbing down the information to the point that it's not actually useful. To me, I think we need to meet in the middle. Essentially, a placard with the max kW displayed as well as the maximum current and maximum voltage where that current is available. For a paired CPE 250, that might still be 125 kW, but below that, it would display 200 A @ 1000 V. Likewise, a 350 kW Signet charger would be 500 A @ 700 V. The rest is really on the automaker to provide the information to their customer.
Tesla still does it the best. Yes, there are some older drivers that are not too techie that still get V2's and V3's confused, but for the most part, the vast majority of drivers get it right since the app and the Tesla screen lets you know. And the vast majority of their network are V3's which are all 250kw. Very simple. If you have an 800v system, then it's up to the EV manufacturer to provide the proper 400v voltage converter for that EV. For example, some split the 800v pack in 2 to get down to 400v and get the highest speeds possible. The 800v cybertruck, for example, gets a max of 250kw on those 400v V3 chargers. The Rivian powersharing design does not make any sense. With so few dispensers there should be no power sharing. Especially since they have larger vehicles with large batteries that require the highest rates possible. Yet another decision that shows why they are struggling to make it. Very poor decision making going on at every level. Such as their latest decision to place the NACS port on the right rear, despite joining the Tesla network which vast majority of dispensers have very short cables meant for the left rear or right front. As for the rest of the CCS networks, I'm in complete agreement with you that they are a total mess. That's why Tesla opening up their vast network is so game changing.
The temperature and state of charge, percent, makes a huge difference in initial charging speed. These info that confuses EV drivers about charging is no different from drivers when gas cars first came along. You could use different fuels for the first drivers.
Chargers advertising unattainable charging speeds do piss me off. A 50kW 400V charger with 125A cable will never be able to achieve 50kW since a 400V-class pack will already be around 90% SoC and ready to leave by the time it reaches ~380V. Advertised charging speeds should be based on the average pack voltage during a typical 20-80% cycle, which would be around 360V. Got only 125A? That makes it a 45kW charger as that will be the best average speed you are going to get out of it assuming your EV can take 125A all the way to 80+% SoC. If you want to advertise it as 50kW, slap on 150A cables and hard-cap the charger at 50kW if you'd like, then 50kW becomes achievable from almost flat at 333V and would be perfect for slow fast-chargers like the Bolt EV.
20:46 I don't entirely blame EVgo for this, other than the fact that they choose BTC Power as their hardware provider. Those labels are provided by BTC Power (including the placard with the incorrect current output), and EVgo just blindly used their rating. EV Connect and Shell Recharge have done the same with these BTC Power units. I'm not even sure whether any of the providers actually paired these units, so they definitely shouldn't be labeled as 200 kW. I'm actually fine with them being labeled as "100 kW," though, because with a high enough voltage car, they will see close to that. It's a theoretical number for sure, but I'm not sure how many people would be complaining about getting 92 kW on a 100 kW machine (the Delta City 100 kW unit is actually rated for 1000 VDC output, unlike the BTC Power unit).
Proper cables are huge. Kempower does it right on their stations that they advertise the correct speeds for 400V and 800V vehicles. I wish more CPO's would use Phoenix Contact cables for the dispensers they put in. Stop with 200A cables, we are not just charging compliance cars and Leafs that can 50KW DCFC.
Excellent video. What I'd like to understand is when chargers are out of service, A). what is the main cause, is it hardware or software? poor quality parts? just too many variations of vehicles it has to be compatible with? B). are they just understaffed hence it takes so long to see a tech come out and actually fix them?
100%. The one topic that nobody ever seems to be able to address I assume because the ev companies themselves won't discuss it. Maybe it's a competition thing? They don't want other companies to know what their issues are? Who knows. Super frustrating. Show me how to diagnose and fix a charger. I'll show up for a weekend shift to try and help for gods sake. Why doesn't Tesla have this problem? Are the engineers at every other company incompetent? Are the other charging companies using cheap materials as a cost-cutting measure? What is going on? They used to say it's because Tesla only has to deal with Tesla cars. Well they don't now, so we'll see.
RE: 6:20 400 vs 800 So which one is the Nissan Leaf? I don’t recognize that charger in Canton and I’ve had the opportunity to see chargers all over the Akron/Canton region
I saw some terrific charge rates in my first 6 months ownership. But recently it doesn't seem to matter what state of charge I arrive at. No matter where I go, my 30-minute charge always brings me to 80% and it's never goes above 60 kilowatts charge rate (even at EA 350 CHARGERS) not even at the lowest state. 3 YEARS OF FREE CHARGING - WHAT A SCAM!
There are a lot of factors that go into to charge speeds. Temperature is a huge factor. This is likely your issue. I regularly charge at advertised rates.
It’s possible your car’s manufacturer found out the correct charge curve to optimize charging speed but also protect the battery. Tesla has a decade of data to inform their charge curve.
Are there any old “Tesla v1.5” sites over there in that part of the states? These are pretty much old v1 sites with updated stalls and reconfigured chargers. Many times only 4 stalls. There are still a handful around in the west.
I don't understand why the split thing should be difficult for people to grasp. It works the same at a gas station. If you are pumping and someone pulls up directly across from you and starts pumping, the pump speed decreases significantly, when they pull off, it goes back up. Same thing. Nice vid.
didnt notice that 35-40l per min after 1 min full is maybe not enough time to notice if its 20-30 sec longer
The difference is, gas pumping, at most, takes like 10 minutes.
It does? I've literally never noticed this.
Keep in mind that the manufacturers you mentioned who have 800 volt systems, don’t have the necessary data to fully inform their decisions balancing battery life and charging speed. This can explain why a new owner might see some adjustments in their charging curves over time.
I think the issue also starts with the automaker. We've seen this a number of times, where automakers have told owners the chargers they needed to use in order to achieve their max charging. Chevy originally told Bolt EV owners that they needed to use "80 kW" chargers to reach their max rate, which was actually only ~55 kW. Hyundai/KIA did the same thing, and we now have tons of E-GMP EV drivers thinking that they can charge at 350 kW.
Totally agree! That’s why I love what Chargeway is doing.
Hold on...but EGMP cars can use the higher speed chargers to their advantage. Why would not use an EA 350 kW charger as an EGMP owner if one is available? I agree that seeing Bolt owners on 350's or anything if you are at a single post charger is mildly infuriating, but I am not sure how you dragged the EGMP crown into the realms of high power abusers.
@@realev21 Who said "abusers"? I said the automakers are communicating charging capabilities in a confusing way. I've seen a ton of E-GMP drivers upset because they aren't charging at 350 kW because that's what Hyundai/KIA told them they would get. No, they are still peaking at 235-245 kW on a 350 kW charger, just as Bolt EV drivers are peaking at 55-57 kW on 80 kW chargers. However, both cars need to plug into chargers with those respective power ratings in order to see their peak charging speeds.
I know E-GMP owners are a little self-conscious on this topic because they want to hit their peak charging speeds even though they only save a couple of minutes by using 350 kW (while other EVs can save 10 to 30 minutes by using the 350 kW), but that wasn't what I was referring to here. I'm simply saying that the car's charging capabilities were poorly communicated by the automakers, causing confusion.
As far as Tesla chargers go, if the cable is thick like a CCS charger, it’s Version 2. It’s why, as a Tesla owner, I avoid Version 2 and CCS if possible.
I do agree that charger labeling needs to be standardized, but it's a balancing act between completely misleading the consumer and dumbing down the information to the point that it's not actually useful. To me, I think we need to meet in the middle. Essentially, a placard with the max kW displayed as well as the maximum current and maximum voltage where that current is available. For a paired CPE 250, that might still be 125 kW, but below that, it would display 200 A @ 1000 V. Likewise, a 350 kW Signet charger would be 500 A @ 700 V. The rest is really on the automaker to provide the information to their customer.
Needs to be simple, concise, and standardized if we want mass adoption to take off.
Tesla still does it the best. Yes, there are some older drivers that are not too techie that still get V2's and V3's confused, but for the most part, the vast majority of drivers get it right since the app and the Tesla screen lets you know. And the vast majority of their network are V3's which are all 250kw. Very simple. If you have an 800v system, then it's up to the EV manufacturer to provide the proper 400v voltage converter for that EV. For example, some split the 800v pack in 2 to get down to 400v and get the highest speeds possible. The 800v cybertruck, for example, gets a max of 250kw on those 400v V3 chargers.
The Rivian powersharing design does not make any sense. With so few dispensers there should be no power sharing. Especially since they have larger vehicles with large batteries that require the highest rates possible. Yet another decision that shows why they are struggling to make it. Very poor decision making going on at every level. Such as their latest decision to place the NACS port on the right rear, despite joining the Tesla network which vast majority of dispensers have very short cables meant for the left rear or right front.
As for the rest of the CCS networks, I'm in complete agreement with you that they are a total mess. That's why Tesla opening up their vast network is so game changing.
The temperature and state of charge, percent, makes a huge difference in initial charging speed. These info that confuses EV drivers about charging is no different from drivers when gas cars first came along. You could use different fuels for the first drivers.
Totally, agree but that is a whole other episode!
Chargers advertising unattainable charging speeds do piss me off. A 50kW 400V charger with 125A cable will never be able to achieve 50kW since a 400V-class pack will already be around 90% SoC and ready to leave by the time it reaches ~380V.
Advertised charging speeds should be based on the average pack voltage during a typical 20-80% cycle, which would be around 360V. Got only 125A? That makes it a 45kW charger as that will be the best average speed you are going to get out of it assuming your EV can take 125A all the way to 80+% SoC. If you want to advertise it as 50kW, slap on 150A cables and hard-cap the charger at 50kW if you'd like, then 50kW becomes achievable from almost flat at 333V and would be perfect for slow fast-chargers like the Bolt EV.
Post the charger's max amps and max volt.
Also indicate on the screen of the charger is power is being reduced due to load sharing or grid balancing..
20:46 I don't entirely blame EVgo for this, other than the fact that they choose BTC Power as their hardware provider. Those labels are provided by BTC Power (including the placard with the incorrect current output), and EVgo just blindly used their rating. EV Connect and Shell Recharge have done the same with these BTC Power units. I'm not even sure whether any of the providers actually paired these units, so they definitely shouldn't be labeled as 200 kW.
I'm actually fine with them being labeled as "100 kW," though, because with a high enough voltage car, they will see close to that. It's a theoretical number for sure, but I'm not sure how many people would be complaining about getting 92 kW on a 100 kW machine (the Delta City 100 kW unit is actually rated for 1000 VDC output, unlike the BTC Power unit).
i believe the author is using Charge Point as a generic term rather than for the Charge Point Co.
Correct! Charge Point Operator (CPO) is a generic term for any company that has chargers!
Proper cables are huge. Kempower does it right on their stations that they advertise the correct speeds for 400V and 800V vehicles. I wish more CPO's would use Phoenix Contact cables for the dispensers they put in. Stop with 200A cables, we are not just charging compliance cars and Leafs that can 50KW DCFC.
Excellent video. What I'd like to understand is when chargers are out of service, A). what is the main cause, is it hardware or software? poor quality parts? just too many variations of vehicles it has to be compatible with? B). are they just understaffed hence it takes so long to see a tech come out and actually fix them?
100%. The one topic that nobody ever seems to be able to address I assume because the ev companies themselves won't discuss it. Maybe it's a competition thing? They don't want other companies to know what their issues are? Who knows. Super frustrating. Show me how to diagnose and fix a charger. I'll show up for a weekend shift to try and help for gods sake. Why doesn't Tesla have this problem? Are the engineers at every other company incompetent? Are the other charging companies using cheap materials as a cost-cutting measure? What is going on? They used to say it's because Tesla only has to deal with Tesla cars. Well they don't now, so we'll see.
The Tesla network has no such issues. They are monitored 24/7. Any stall that goes down is up again no later than the next day.
RE: 6:20 400 vs 800
So which one is the Nissan Leaf?
I don’t recognize that charger in Canton and I’ve had the opportunity to see chargers all over the Akron/Canton region
This was Canton a neighborhood in Baltimore! Sorry for the confusion!!!
Also Nissan leaf is 400v!
@@theaverageev Oh, ok. I wasn’t aware there’s a Canton in Maryland. I was thinking of Canton Ohio.
I saw some terrific charge rates in my first 6 months ownership. But recently it doesn't seem to matter what state of charge I arrive at. No matter where I go, my 30-minute charge always brings me to 80% and it's never goes above 60 kilowatts charge rate (even at EA 350 CHARGERS) not even at the lowest state. 3 YEARS OF FREE CHARGING - WHAT A SCAM!
There are a lot of factors that go into to charge speeds. Temperature is a huge factor. This is likely your issue. I regularly charge at advertised rates.
It’s possible your car’s manufacturer found out the correct charge curve to optimize charging speed but also protect the battery. Tesla has a decade of data to inform their charge curve.
Are there any old “Tesla v1.5” sites over there in that part of the states? These are pretty much old v1 sites with updated stalls and reconfigured chargers. Many times only 4 stalls. There are still a handful around in the west.