Hamons 1 (aka "The Hammonding")
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ย. 2024
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Fumbling the technique and bumbling the Japanese language. After reviewing the correct pronunciation of the word"hamon" and noting historical tidbits from medieval England I try to apply hamons to W2 and 1084 steel with oil and water quenches to see what can be learned. Which is mainly that I have A LOT to learn. It's a long video because, well, knives 'sploded.
These knives were not polished in the traditional "bright" hamon style. I'm just not that experienced with them and finding genuine finger stones/polishing stones for that technique has been difficult.
These knives on sale here: www.ebay.com/i... www.ebay.com/i... www.ebay.com/i...
Hammond. Hey, mon. Ham own. Ammon. How do you say hamon?
Special thanks to Holden Murphy
Support this Channel! / greenbeetle
Inquiries stephen@greenbeetlegear.com
This videos content is copyrighted and may not be re-used, published or distributed without my express, written permission.
Its easy for one to forget how relevant the Knights Who Say Nie are to knifemaking. Well done.
E Anderson the guardians of the sacred words ni, peng, and niii-wom. Later known as the knights who say ekki ekki ekki pitang zoom-boing.
EKKI EKKI EKKI PATANG!
NERDS all of you. I love it!
Laughed so hard at the “* Regional pronunciation” tag which you flashed up that I blew lit tobacco outta my pipe and all over my shop bench! I just wasn’t ready for the linguistics in this video. Thanks for the belly laugh (and new burn holes in my jeans)!!
I shared this video with my father, who worked as a professional metallurgist for over 30 years. We both really enjoyed it & love your sense of humor.
I felt like I was having a stroke during the whole ha, hi, nie, tooki tooki bit. Love your videos though lol
I DEMAND...A SHRUBBERY!!
snugglytuna only slightly higher this time with a path running through the middle....
something with berries would be nice
Then, when you have found the shrubbery, you must cut down the mightiest tree in the forest... with... a herring!
I laughed so hard I almost peed myself :D Ji ji ji ji :D Thank you for making these funny videos and your sense of humor! :)
What's YOUR favorite way to say "Hamon"? I'm working on finding quality polishing and finger stones for a more traditional bright hamon finish. I'll put up a video ASAP!
These knives were auctioned on eBay. Thanks!
Green Beetle Preferably in shaun connery's BOND accent
Beautiful knives! And just to be a doofus, my favorite way to say it is: swiss and hamon rye. Dangit! Now I want a sandwich. ;)
nice work! Hamon is a Japanese word tho, not French lol
mekugi, yeah... watch the whole video. :)
Green Beetle
Ham On. Would a high temperature water, say boiling water, help keep the steel from cracking?
The secret to hammons is that you have to hammer it out with a herring. And then use the clay from a shrubbery, one that's nice but not too expensive.
Chiefbigcorn just a heads up please don’t forget the two level effect with a path down the middle or it won’t turn out right either.
Thanks for the name drop.
More vids, please.
Green Beetle working on it. Have to learn a new editing software .
Thank you for experimenting, sharing and saving us all a ton of time/ material/ money. Nice work as usual!
After your last video that went way over my head I came back to this recommended video and I’m so glad I did. As a fairly new maker I just decided it’s time to try for a hamon. This video was extremely helpful. I’m excited to give it a try. Your knives finished up beautifully!!!
Generally each individual smith develops their unique hamon which aids in identifying who made a sword.
Oh man, as someone who speaks at least survival Japanese, and who watches a lot of knife making videos, this was fantastic! Thank you for taking the time to learn correct pronunciations. Even a couple that weren't quite right were really close. When someone calls it a "hay-man" I want to reach through the screen and time and smack them, back of my glove style.
And the bit about erasing the extra one but still being able to see it? I woke up my kid because I laughed so loud and suddenly. Oh, and I learned some stuff, too. Great video!
Jon Miller I mean, it was not that bad, but not excessively good. But old Japanese is difficult, so you can’t blame anyone for it.
Very cool and it was very cool to see the process as well. The secret to the Hamone is the fact that a "bi metal" construction is used in traditional Japanese sword making. That's why your knives kept cracking. Use a softer steel and wrap it with a jacket of harder steel and I guarantee you that it won't crack during quenching and you will have some epic hamone lines. It's harder to crack a combination of hard and soft steel.
so that's why japanese blade masters combined the soft and hard steel to prevent from cracking.
THIS is the content I subscribe for!! xD Encouragement for one Oklahoma to another. Loving the picture quality!
Doing a video on different etching substances would be really cool!
I have heard both of those things from Japanese smiths, they take the quenching temp very seriously where I see lot's of western taught smiths quenching too high a lot of the time. I was taught to never let the blade go over sunset colour when you quench, and the reasoning they gave was because if you heat the steel too high you upset the structure of the steel because of expansion and agitation of the molecules. So if you keep the temp down when you quench, the steel stays more compact and the grain is tighter. I have a hunch that they are correct, because it makes sense, heat does make things expand I haven't ever looked under a microscope to check myself, but I do listen to their advice and it seems to work.
I really like the tone of your channel -- There is a genuine enthusiasm for making, and love of the craft, as well as honesty, modesty, and humor, and a casualness that is inviting and comfortable. Thanks, and keep up the great work!
I like the way the grain looks in the olive wood.. it looks very hamonie. They were all great looking knives! Nice work
Really enjoy the technical and scientific aspects you put into your videos, along with your humor, you really bring something to the viewers that other smith's don't. SOMEONE SPONSOR THIS MAN FOR A BIG SHOP WITH INDUSTRIAL MACHINERY. I'm crying for your poor elbows :'(
Man, you have the best videos. Just how honest you are and hilariously self critical. Keep it up!
You are correct about the steel not being homogeneous. Sometimes you get stock that has a higher content of carbon, magnesium, sulfides etc in one area or another and that will cause it to etch differently. I've ran into it a few times while cutting steel with a torch. Be cutting fine one second next second big blowout.
Seriously man, you are awesome! Hands down favorite channel on TH-cam. Ton of respect for what you do. You are continually trying something new and challenging yourself while providing great entertainment and educational for folks.
4:23 I love the history lesson with green beetle!
Watched this video almost fully twice this weekend while worrying over my first hamons. Great info.
What a great video, man! I like you being so consinstend in blowing up your blades. I did a day of "Hamoning" a few days back and i didn't really got it to show. I might have sanded it all away - three times. But since i tried a whole day myself i really appreciate this video for being full of good ideas. Thanks alot for that!
I don't know what caused the variance in the hamon on knife 3, but I think it's beautiful, and the best way you said it was "the steel telling it's own story". Regardless of why it's telling that story, I think that's a great way to look at it.
Good stuff! As someone that does a lot of water quenching, I've been down that road where a "keep doing it till it works" mentality starts to feel like insanity!
All you had to do to keep it from cracking was to quench in a way that the thin edge didn't cool down so quickly compared to the rest (you can see how fast it loses its glow in the slow-mo @ 16:37). Grinding the edge thicker was one good way to do it. Another way is to go into the quench bucket holding the edge parallel to the water but facing up, so that the edge is the last part of the knife to go *into* the water and the first thing to come out. You can even lift it out slowly so that the spine stays in the quenchant for much longer. It's a balancing act, but do it enough times and you start to get really good at working out how quickly water cools steel down at different thicknesses.
BTW I don't think using soap or heating the water to a specific temp is all that important.
Jijiji reminded me of roscoe from the dukes of hazzard
Matt DHamon
Yes please do a video about using different acids to etch :)
Thanks for taking the time and huge effort to try these processes out. At no.6 I would be doubting the value in continuing with water. Love the narration. Nice humour and good descriptions. Cheers.
mate seriously love this video dude, you're work is superb
Great work as always, it's always interesting to see what you come up with!
Such science! Ji-ji-ji-ji.
Thoroughly enjoyed your commentary on this one. Thanks for sharing!
Very interesting. Looks like it's worth giving it a few tries
We are no longer the knights who say Ni, we are the knights who say ikie ikie ikie fatang weeeeee
mavos1211 I always thought it was icky icky bokung
mavos1211 I always thought it was icky icky bokung
Joseph Rector lol yes probably!
I haven’t watched it in 25yrs or so which I realise is probably a criminal offence 😂
The editing on this was phenomenal dude, the hamon/jijiji/etc elements were expertly timed and a delight to watch.
You are incredibly talented. This is one of my favorite videos so far!
COOL VID!
I learned a lot and am going to try several of your techniques to see what I like best!
VERY nice knives and the handles set the blades off, nicely!
THANKS!
Whaaaaaat there's knife #2 I've been working in it I didn't tell you so what! Hahaha that was great!
I always learn something when I search your videos.
I find the impromptu tools you use like rebar to be almost charming in their simplicity and surprising effectiveness
I subbed because humanity absolutely needs a hobbyist nutter whacking hot metal in a suburban garage.
Thanks for sharing this with the rest of us nutters who keep the normies in our towns on their toes.
The key to expressing hamon is consistent movement.... if you watch togishi (Japanese sword polishers) whiten the hamon it seems to be an inch by inch section half crossed over each step forward.. lateral lines like satin hand rub is the movement... slowly and methodically forward and backwards... no up and down movement..
Looks like some alloy banding on your mystery gouges. This was a lot of work, buddy. We appreciate you educating us!
Was wondering about something like that, thanks for the help!
And this little knifey went "ji ji ji ji" all the way home! In all seriousness, great vid about hamons and knife making. I've heard that even master sword smiths in Japan have pretty high failure rates when quenching in water (I want to say about 50%, but I need to double check that number). But as you mentioned, they say you get more interesting hamon patterns with water. They also don't etch traditional Japanese blades to bring out the hamon; they use special polishing techniques if I remember correctly. All in all, thanks for sharing what you learned and sharing your experiments.
One of your best -- informative and funny, and some very nice knives. Can't remember where I saw it, but: "Knife makers don't make mistakes, they just make smaller blades..." Works for me :-) Like several other commenters, I have my best success with W2 using a warm, slightly soapy brine and a count of "one thousand two" before going to the oil. Clyde
Clyde Ulmer that is an awesome comment ty for posting! Heheheh (ji ji ji ji)
Thank you for sharing, and I can't stop laughing you are funny, Ji, Nie, Ji Ji....have a nice day.
Impressive study and the knives turned out excellent, great work!
I just tried a water then oil quench (hot water with a little soap and lotsa salt) to try and get a fab hamon. It was fine till it got to handling temperature then I heard a ping and it had cracked and the edge warped. So I agree, putting it into a hot oven immediately is probably a good thing to do. Next time. I did get a great hamon :)
(Just realised I forgot to heat the oil...)
Number 3 is my favorite. Man i love your videos, i would like to see more Japanese knife technics.
Great video as always. I think knife number 2 was my favorite.
Polish the edge on a buffer to mirror shine before the quench in water. Any scratch will propagate a crack so minimize with an on the face of it unnecessary level of prequench polish.
Great video, thanks for all that hard work.
12:50 Interesting, I'm totally stealing that technique.
Yoink
you want the clay to break off at the end as that indicates you have a hard blade and the transformation into martensite has happened. the transformation of martensite happens at the speed of sound.
Japanese polishers take up the blade to something like 10,000 to 15,000 grit.
I feel your pain on the cracked blades. The only time I've had success with water quenching for a hamon is to heat the water to about 130°f first, and leave about 1.5mm on the edge. Your funky pattern on knife #1 might have been because of an extra thickness of clay in that area.
Good video tons of info thanks for sharing!
Really nice knives!
Thanks for showing!
I started heat treating before I put any kind of bevel on at all and never cracked or warped a blade. Takes longer to complete the bevel of course but man I’ve saved allot of blades this way
So awesome! Definitely gotta try doing a hamon now. Should be interesting 👍🏻
Hi, I have tried doing hamons a couple of times but none have been successful, i have got close but after polishing the line disappears and the blade gets even, what could i be doing wrong? Should i use an etchant to bring the line up after polishing???
Video so nice, I watched it twice
All three, very cool.
Blacksmith Guillotine Tool helps al lot when ur forging alone and want to do the handle dip behind the ricaso
Glad you are back
Cool vid. I remember from an old Blade magazine that they used rice straws to hold clay in place.
the area in the 2nd knife water cooled is cause as the water cools the edge it curves towards the softer spine i found that water cooling is easyer if you trough it and slow quench that is in your water trough put a layer of oil on top of water and just slowly palce the edge in the water till it stops glowing then dunk the blade in oil... also i found that if you make a clay mix of green river clay charcoal and oil and some sugar not a lot of sugar and put try in trough when blade is at critical slice or chop the edge in the clay till cooled then finish in the oil.. i hope this helps
Mike Uman's tips for water quenching success!
Use a thin oil...
the difference in etching texture was caused by the hardening. hardened steel etches darker
I didn't know you where a fellow Okie. That's cool! Love the channel man.
Just learned you're from Oklahoma! I went to OSU and lived in Norman for 10 years after college. I'm looking forward to that email in a few months saying you have time to make me a knife! In the mean time, I'll keep binge watching your vids and thinking of exactly what I'm looking for in my knife. Keep being awesome!
TIP: Quench at cherry red when using water (~1400 F) ,less stress on the steel.
I've had the same "grooving" happen after i etched 1095 with an oil quenched hamon. I feel like maybe you're right and it is a defect in the steel. I loved how my knife turned out, but that grooving just made it so that I looked at it every time I used it.
You've probably figured this out by now, but you can use the edge of your anvil, striking half on and half off the edge, (using the round face of your hammer), to draw out your steel and make the tang. That's a nice anvil by the way.
21:37 The blade is thinner there? and heated up, or the clay was applied too thin and heat got through? like some kind of air bubble-esque effect kind of business going on. Maybe a gap opened up between the clay and steel, allowing oil inside touching the blade in that small portion with a gap when the clay hardened? I can't think of anything else that can cause it.
I did the same thing with a buffing wheel and it ruined the hamon. I ended up having to dip it again and start over. I've found just taking it up to 1000+ dipping it, then applying something like flintz and polishing it out by hand works best... I used dish soap with canola and brine to make a homemade fast quench.
very uneducated guess on the hamon pattern gap thing - If the clay drying time was insufficient then the water that was left would resonably turn to vapor in the forge and create a gap... maybe ... or maybe as the clay dries it contracts and detaches from the blade?
so what i get out of this as someone whos never forged anything in his life is stay away from quenching in water?
Well done mate. That's alot of work. I do an interupted quench. I use hot tap water not boiling otherwise the quench is too fast. I think the trouble you were having was this also you need salt lots of it mixed with dish soap. This makes it into a brine quench. I quench into the brine for a count of one thousand, two thousand, three thousand in my head then quench into 130f-150f oil. You have your knife in the brine for too long from what I can see. I've done just brine also quenching 1mm thick chef blades with hamons and they're fine sometimes they're not alot of the issues is the inconsistency of the w2 quality out there. Knife gods are task masters. Cheers nyatiblades.
Watch your back, lindybeige is becoming competition haha
Wow thank you for your help. I'd be very happy to have any of my knives look half as good as those. Love your videos bro. Thanks Anthony Kent HAWK woodlore knives UK
Hilarious and informative, what else could you even want?
Canister damascus using horseshoe nails
20 minute green beatle video? Count me in!!
super interesting video. Blew a couple knives aswell by trying this. But i´ll give c100 another go in a couple of days
Pure gold, Steve
Very cool!
Don't beat yourself up over it - Water quenching is hard, even Japanese smiths have a fair failure rate on kitchen knives and swords (with swords it's not as big an issue because legally they could only make a certain number a year anyway).
That uneven pattern is actually a bonus in some circles. Look up "Genkai Fuji Mountain" knives. They paint it in a certain way so there's a small spot where the steel is not covered by clay, which either creates a crescent moon or sun pattern on the blade.
Thanks for posting that! Just got to the stage where I've finished grinding my first knife with an attempt at a harmon. Think I'll avoid water quenching this one, and go for oil! It feels a really nice knife, and I'd be gutted if I wrecked it!
Ive been using modeling clay with fantastic results without having to wait more than ten minutes to start the heat treat.
I just did a video testing McMaster Carr 11 second against Parks 50 & W2 vs 1095... It's a whole build series, so I still got a ways to go till I polish everything out, the heat treating came out nice..... I've tried 1084 & 52100, both were horrible & left no hamon. Basically, W2 & 1095 work best. The polishing is what brings out the hamon. I even made my own fast quench canola(last video series) & tested it against Mcmaster and brine... Take it easy.
0:15 everyday of my life😂
I love your videos
Hey dude awesome vid and great to see how the clay pattern effecred the end result. Regarding those weird lines that appeared after etching, I got the same thing after a water quench on a blade with a hamon (but vertical). I could not figure out why. I repolished to 1200 like 4 times and they were still there but only in the hard steel!? I have since made several blades with a hamon but used oil to quench and no problems. Micro fractures/stress lines maybe? They look like grind lines but obviously they are not. I thought that air got trapped int the grind lines of the quenched blade forming enough of if steam jacket to form mini hamons. Even with the very lightest etch you could clearly see the hamon, so I'll call that a win.
So, did knife number 4 "explode" because the hamon clay was forcing the blade to curve back during the quench?
I'm new to the channel. You said here in Oklahoma at 4:06. Are you from oklahoma? NE okla here. Just wondering
tulsa area
@@GreenBeetle awesome fella. Claremore here. Loving the videos.
Yay another video. Thanks.
Hey Steve have you tried a brine quench? Let the water absorb as much salt as possible before warming for heat treat I have had success with this for over 40 years but then the quench oil purpose is for the "fast quench" thats why they make the stuff water then oil? Hmmm yes well ok then but you are doing a harsh quench then a another quench