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Hamons 2 (aka "The After-Hammond") Hybrid vs Traditional Polishing
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 เม.ย. 2018
- Supernatural strangeness is afoot after the first Hamons video (The Hammonding). I try out Walter Sorrells' hybrid polishing technique and do my best to take a second knife through traditional Japanese polishing. Needless to say the hybrid polishing went MUCH BETTER. But I learned stuff! Special thanks to Zaargon for not eating my soul, Holden Murphy, Jonathan Estep and Walter Sorrells.
Mr. Sorrells' Excellent Video With Many More Details Than I Discussed: waltersorrellsb...
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Man I'm loving the direction your vids are going! Adding more comedy but keeping a cool learning vibe. One of my favorite youtube bladesmiths!
ty brother!
i came for the knifemaking, but i stayed for the bizarre humour
Did somebody say...
B I Z Z A R E?
This is by far the best video I have found on bringing out a hamon on youtube. Thanks!
This is brilliant. It's like you and This Old Tony are sharing a brain. I mean obviously neither has full control but it's beautiful none the less.
Thank you for the video. I have watched Walter for many years. Traditional Japanese togogiri top polish is the stuff of legends. I watched every second which is an absolute rarity and was slightly bummed from the last skip to fully polished. Wonderful work on both knives.
You actually did really well with the stones, one thing to keep in mind though, is when you're doing your foundation polish is to use short little circular strokes. It'll save you a huge headache in the long run.
Also I noticed that the first water quenched knife was totally devoid of asha lines (lines of clay extending from the ridge to the edge of the blade)... said lines are pretty much essential to keep the edge from cracking from use... and during the quench as they relieve stress along the edge, plus they produce different patterns (activity as you called it) within the Hamon
Other than that You did really good work on both, Keep 'em coming ^.^
Aaand Walter Sorrells here with more I know more about this than pretty much anyone! Ha! Great and beautiful work man
LOL this is one the most informative and fun videos i have ever seen in my life ! thanks for your work and knowledge.
That black handled one looked sweet! Good job!
Love the comedy at the end, keeps the video refreshing with out taking away from the content.
The g10 handle knife Harmon is beautiful
7 hours of hand polishing! You are a better man than I
I made a knife for my senior independent shop class project back in HS, complete with hardening, tempering, and signing my name in the blade using a combination of nitric & sulfuric acids in the chem lab. Since the finest grit belts you could get for the sanders in my school shop was 180 grit, I polished it all by hand. Turn a movie on, then sit in the livingroom for hours with a piece of wet-dry silicon carbide sandpaper stuck to my finger, rubbing it back and forth over the blade. It was interesting seeing you do pretty much the same thing for the traditional technique, only using stones instead of sandpaper. Feel like I spent about 3 years rubbing sandpaper against that blade in that single semester, but it came out great. =)
BTW, there is #0000 (0*4) steel wool, gunsmith books recommend it all the time for removing very light rust from guns without harming the fragile bluing.
very interesting maybe I should try that, ty
Yes. It works way better.
No surprise that strange things happen in your mirror, since you're doing acid all day :P
Great video, and I like the knives!
Awesome video!
Also uchigumori is pronounced with the ch as in chicken not with a ck sound.
This is by far my favorite video you have done.
This is unrelated, but while watching this video a bat got into my room. I was wrangling with it while you were going on about knife polishing in the background, haha! I first ran out of the room and closed the door. When I came back in to deal with it it was quietly perched on the door frame. I can only assume that the dulcet tones of your voice and calm nature of the videos lulled it into a relaxed state. Thanks for the assist.
Aaand the hamon rabbit hole just got deeper. Thanks for this, it was great
Love these videos! I look forward to yours the most. Oh and thanks for all of the charity work you do, you’re a f***ing rockstar
Brilliant video very informative buddy thanks for sharing and I'll definitely never be doing this haha 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Man I absolute love this video, it's definitely one of the best ones you have ever made to date. And I am a time Traveller from the future. Btw it aledgedly takes longer to learn to be a sword polisher than it takes to learn how to forge and harden them. Good job buddy
I love lemon juice for sure, but lime juice with a bit of pulp works really nicely for just showing the hamon line.
I respect your willingness to work that long an new techniques. That is a lot of work. Great job, very informative.
I laughed way too hard at this. The knives turned out awesome too.
Birmingham UK here loving the channel, learning loads, cheers fella 👍
Salisbury uk i also love the channel
Love the video, beside the incredible work it's also informative. Just on a side note I wouldn't add any detergent to the lemon juice, detergents are a base liquid and will neutralise the acid in the lemon.
I did not think to ask this in my earlier comments your hamon videos and I am wondering if you did you clayed the back of the spine and front of the ricasso of your blades? I am asking because I have observed a lot of clay quenches as it's my preferred method of quenching as personally i feel its the gentlest method of quenching. If you do not cover these parts of the blade your quenching you are far more likely to crack the blade. I am unsure what grit you take your blades up to before quenching but I suggest stoping at 120 as that will allow the clay to stick the blade allowing you to forgo the wire. also to prevent auto tempering you should leave the blade in your quench medium until the medium stops boiling as quench speed only affects the exposed steel and the heat will rise away from the exposed steel. I think you may want to do a 5-7 second count before switching from water to oil if you want to use walters method and form what i have seen when he does this quench I feel it is a modified interrupted quench. I would love for you to revisit this subject trying out my suggestions.
I hope you keep up the great work.
sorry if I come off as arrogant here however I have done enough clay quenches to go threw 3 32 ounce containers of Rutland black and so my arrogance is backed up by a lot of observations.
Keep in mind that dish soap is also fairly alkaline. Its addition to acid will change the pH.
Very good, I really enjoyed it, Great work! Your commentary and Zaargon made me laugh!
Man, these are some great ideas, I would love to try the aluminium oxide powder and the finger stones, but my last few builds have been all hamons..... I think I'm gonna take a break for a while... I definitely learned a lot experimenting, but I never tried any of these methods, maybe one day.... Thanks for all the tips...
Thank you for sharing!
Pretty stoked on getting one of these!!!
Ay man, thanks for the vid- nice editing skills with the mirror bit!
Fantastic video. Thanks for your efforts to educate.
I'm sure the smaller stones are meant for the hamon only. There's a video out there by a togishi so you can see how. It's worked by thumb in short tight strokes in random linear directions and slowly works its way up the hamon.
Ty
That book wasn't around in the 80s when I learned Shitage and Shiagi Togi. Lot's of time and advice, and dreams believe it or not. I dreamt out the subtleties of the Hazuya, Narutake and Nugui. Would wake up and improved by leaps and bounds as time passed. I used Asahi Synthetics, and Naturals. You know you slaughtered the pronunciations. My Uchigumori where $600 a piece those are cheap decent ones. Oh, and Tungsten Carbide Migaki Bo. We also use Chromium 2, and Chromium 3 Oxide. The Red, and Green Nugui. You have to work your Nugui, a lot with Kanahada, less with Chromium.
Pretty much Retired now though.
Man, that 1st blade came out sweet. Thanks for the tips. I had never even heard of the finger stones, till about a month ago, pretty wild idea.... I usually always leave me edges thick for heat treat. I figured 1/2 the people heat treat 1st and the other half take it down to a dime, so I split the difference. I found that if you ever need to surface grind one side more, you have plenty of room to move the center. So far, I've never cracked a blade(so far, hahaha).... Take it easy....
thanks for the perspective, always good ot hear what others are doing! Go by Walter Sorrells' channel and thank him too for the polishing tips!
That was pretty cool and it looks like a lot of things that I've been trying to work through and it almost seems like different grades of sandpaper do the exact same thing
The black handled one looks real nice!
Very fun and informative video!
but for a pie cutter, _nothing_ but key lime juice will due.
Annnnnnnd... the esoteric remains just that. The Mysteries of Japanese blade polishing handed down in secret from generation to generation of people who did only that for a living versus a curious guy from OK. I thought you did pretty damn well!!
from what I've heard the longer you leave the acid on the blade the more detail comes out, I was even told don't wipe the acid off just let it dry for awhile but I could be wrong
Holy cow, you just saved me a bunch of time and money. I choose to go with Team Acids.
uchigumori
OO-CHEE-GOO-MOH-REE
The "g" sound in Japanese will always be a hard g. In fact, there is little to no variation in pronunciation between different words. Japanese is very consistent in its rules, unlike the mess that is English. It's like you're trying to make it harder than it is :P
It’s beautiful work!!
Great video thanks for sharing.
you need to try using pineapple i was experimenting and i got amazing results with carbon steels between 1075 and 1095
Pretty spoopy vid, breh.
If you ever have to take your kitchen knives into battle, them Hamons might be a game changer!
Your enemies will see that etching and be like “back up boys, he’s Hamoned the $&@$ out of that onion cutter!” “It’s got flexibility and a durable cutting edge!”
Love your granite color.
Please bring Zargon back. That end bit was hilarious lol
So. I heard if you alternate between lemon juice and vinegar it really makes it pop.
Your result though .... is perfect. Well ... amazing, anyway.
impressive work!
Very nice hamon still.
Fantastic video man really enjoyed it!
My last comment was not a criticism of your efforts. I realize it seems very negative. I know however a knife makers most valuable asset is time. When you see the cost of a Custom knife the makers time investment is a HUGE factor in price. By way of reference the most primitive knife I've made still took hours.
Great job 👍
Bro you look nothing like what you sound like. Lol loving the videos bro been here since day!
So in between etching cycles are you applying the WD-40 and metal polish or are you etching through all the cycles then applying the WD-40 and metal polish then the aluminum oxide?
nice one bud
Like starting a project that your great great great grandpa will still not see the end result. Someone must have given them a cheat sheet 🤔
Have someone tried using a sandpaper 1200 grit or 2000 grit instead of the aluminium oxide to polish after the lemon juice etch?have
Fantastic job making what could've been really boring and technical into something I laughed out loud at. Traditions aside, would you get a similar result with some stronger acid some sort of powered polisher? You know, MORE POWER!!!
really glad I subscribed, when are you gonna do ANOTHER farriers rasp knife? Would be really cool if you would. I do a lot of frontier style knives outta farriers rasps.
I use Japanese Natural stones for sharpning my knives.
Great video
From what I read and understand the finishing polish stages only really help when the blade was made from bloom steel/tamahagane. It doesn't really do much for modern steels.
could be true, good info thanks
Great vid...lots of info...BUT, thank goodness for technology!
OMG. The way you handled that DVD triggered the shit clean outta me. :(
One Questionen
Did you first heat the lemon juice and then add the detergent or did you add the detergent and then heat it?
Ahhh 1084, now there's yer problem... too many Manganese's ;) Great video!
It's the low manganese version Aldo sells. At least that's what's claimed about it. Thanks!
Green Beetle - I wasn't aware that he sold a low manganese 1084, although it's been a while since I've had to buy any steel from him since I'm pretty well stocked (at least for my slow pace). I do know that he sells a low manganese 1075 as I still have some... It really makes for a nice hamon btw👍. Are you sure you aren't thinking of his low manganese 1075?
ETA: I just gave his site a quick check out of curiosity and the only 1084 his site has at the moment is listed as having a .8 manganese content, which is great for contrast in damascus, but not quite ideal for much activity in a hamon. On the other hand, his 1075 is listed as having a .35 manganese content, which makes for some good ashi and "wispy clouds" etc. :)
Try dabbling with different dilution strengths of Potassium Dichromate and Hydrochloric acid, be careful making initial brew, 1/ dissolve Dichromate in hot water, then SLOWLY add acid, otherwise it will reboil the water and may splatter, 2/ wear the right safety gear and be careful with Dichromate,- nasty !! Make initial brew with basic equal amounts ,200 grams Potassium Dichromate, 200 ML Hot water, 200ML Hydrochloric Acid, Your finished solution will be Yellow in colour, and looks so similar to the test dip solution I have watched you use in your Vids, to bring out Demascus pattern, would love to see if this works there too ,let me know !!
Do a bedspring Damascus? Mattress springs must have some carbon content.
Would it be safer to use two different carbon steels? In my limited knowledge I thought they used a high carbon steel for the edge and lower carbon steel in the spine.
If you have so much difficulty with getting the water quench to not crack, do you know how they used to do it in Japan with a fairly high success rate with, debate ably, lower quality steel? Is it the lamination pattern?
Why bother with the water quench if it is so prone to mess up the knife?
What if you use the steel darkening solution like what you use to blacken steel on the soft part of the blade the better define the hamon?
What is the liquid that you put the knife in at 4:01 and made the knife black color?
Any thoughts on Rottenstone? Too fine maybe? I know it is effective for gun stock polishing.
Hello, what kind of wire do I need to use for the wrapping of my blade to attempt a hamon? Please Amy info would be so appreciated!
Iron wire works.
Sunlight yellow overdrive?
0:47 you corrected it!... ;)
I need help o wise master of the blade!! I did everything you did in the video, but I can’t get the hamon to show. When I etch it in the lemon I can see the difference in soft and hard steel with the pattern I made in clay, but when I put brasso metal polish on it nothing happens. The blade goes back to white with no difference between the steels and no hamon. I spent the last two days wiping the damn thing down with lemon, grapefruit, and vinegar to no avail. Any pointers or ideas why I am failing so badly at this?
what was the steel, how did you quench it, did you try etching with ferric. you can polish off the oxides that reveal the hamon with the metal polish ...
@@GreenBeetle part of my problem is probably the steel. I don't know exactly what it is. I made the knife from a railroad clip. It is probably 5160 or something similar. As for the quench, I brought it up to non magnetic and let it sit for a few extra seconds and then quenched it in vegetable oil and I don't have ferric chloride at the moment to help with the etch, that is why I followed your way of using lemons. The lemons worked, I could see the unhardened, hardened, and the hamon but when I wipe the oxides off and use the metal polish the definition goes away. Thanks for all the help and for making such great videos! You can't believe how helpful they are to beginners like me who don't have someone to study under.
@@ddayinvader6487 using mystery steel for a hamon or anything really is a big gamble. w1, w2, 1070, 1084, 1095 are typical hamon steels. If you can find it, low alloy 1050.
@@GreenBeetle hello again wise sage of pointy things, I have another question. So I took your advice and got some w2 from Aldo and made a knife. Well several, five blew up in the quench. The one that didn't cause me to scream profanity for all my neighbors to hear, is doing weird things. It has a hamon line but when I etch it with lemons it just doesn't seem to do what yours did. The line and really everything seems to be cloudy. When I first started etching it the hardened portion remained white while the unhardened portion etched black and the hamon appeared. But as I kept etching and polishing, the hardened area began to look hazy and dull and so did the hamon, and now there is little difference between the three sections. Any ideas as to why it is doing this? Could it be the metal polish I am using, because it seems like the oxides aren't being totally removed when I polish but I scrubbed the thing for ten minutes and the haziness doesn't seem to go away.
@@ddayinvader6487 hard to know without seeing pictures whats going on. give it a dunk in ferric chloride to quickly bring out your landmarks and see if your hamon is any good or not?
"If you know better, I'm sorry" hah!
What did you end up getting out of that black handled one? Just curious what kind of cash a knife with that many hours yields.
I haven't sold it yet. I'll put it up soon unless someone messages me for it first.
Small world, my friend’s family owns Maas polish
💪
The stone cuts the knife, but then you use the knife to cut the stone. Seems sort of poetic.
How about brine quenching? Just curious
This video should leave you with just one question: How strong ARE your lemons?
Any clues to why the blade fractured the first quench?
Thanks td
Man I can’t even say this stuff. Just think what went into creating all this knowledge. How much trial and error went into perfecting this art. Maybe 6000 years?
How does this compare to silicon carbide sand paper?
Green Beetle
How can I send you something.... I have a cool idea I think you might have fun trying out.
What type of steel wire is that? And what gauge is it?
Have you tried it with a high salt content in the water?
I've done brine quenches before on farrier rasps. My understanding though is that it's rougher on blades than straight water quenching because it's quicker?
Green Beetle - sorry not trying to be a know-it-all here, but I just wanted to mention that I believe brine can actually be more "gentle" on the steel, since the salt content helps to break up the vapor jacket it allows the water to contact and cool/quench the steel more evenly, as opposed to straight water where the vapor jacket can be uneven and push the blade around in different directions along the length of the blade as it cools. So even though the salt allows the water to quench the steel faster, it can result in a more even and thus less stressful quench from being pushed and pulled around by the vapor jacket.
I will say I've never tested this myself, I only remember reading about somewhere a number of years back. If you're interested you could try comparing the two quenches (water and brine) to each other sometime to see if the brine helps lower the percentage of cracked blades and lessen the severity of any warping.
Brine works well for exactly the reason Isubslimed mentioned. The salt ions provide nucleation sites for the formation of a very large number of very tiny bubbles. It sort of fizzes. I add salt to room temp water until it stops dissolving, then heat the brine up to 120 F with a cheap immersion heater. There may be -- and probably are -- better "recipes", but this works well for me. Clyde
Subtle is fine.
Zargon, consumer of condiments?