@ I retired almost two years ago and my wife and I recently moved to SC from Maine. Been doing a lot of puzzles and the last time I did a 1000 piece it took me almost 3 weeks of working on it here and there. Working now on another 1000 piece but it is going easier with more contrast in the colors. The previous one was a Thomas Kincaid print which was difficult. The pastor of our church is a Master’s grad and a great church. He had Michael Vlach as a prof at Masters. Enjoy listening to you and other likeminded people on here. Blessings as you continue in this endeavor.
@ 😂 thanks, I have a beautiful daughter too, and my dog’s pretty cute. Happy new year brother and loved your podcast with Jeremy on Do theology. I’m a follower of theirs too. Really love the work you guys do, all of you in the foundations media group. Thanks for what you do, it really does help so much and really encourages and strengthens my faith. It’s not wasted
😊 I don't love "the nerdy stuff", but I do recognize its value and importance to your presentation, so keep it up. Now I am going to dive into Deuteronomy because your teaching spurred some questions. Thank you for your podcasts. 😊
Excellent work. I really enjoyed your study of this verse and its translation. Did you look at the Vulgate? It seems that the Vulgate may have influenced the earliest English translations and then tradition carried along this unique translation decision. Martin Luther, in his German translation, didn't follow the Vulgate but went with "when" or 'wenn' in German.
I didn’t include the Vulgate in the article, but perhaps I should have. I think you are probably on to something with the influence on English. Do you know of any larger discussions of the Vulgates influence on English translations? It’s something I’ve wondered and would love to look more into it. As far as the German, I didn’t even think to look at that! That’s some great info, thanks for alerting me to it.
@@thebiblesojourner I don't know of a specific article or book on the topic, but I have seen it quite often. For instance, James 2:2 has synagogue in the Greek, and Jerome was the first to translate it as something other than synagogue. So, when I find a translation decision that goes all the way back to the first English works, I then look at the Vulgate. I've also learned to look at Luther's work, because if Tyndale or other early translators depart from the Vulgate, they often do so because they are agreeing with Luther's work. In short, Bible translators generally like to have some precedence for a new decision. Modern translators, though, may be more innovative because they want to justify their new work. Keep up the good work.
All mainline translations are good, but I have really enjoyed reading the CSB. And this is not the first video highlighting verses that the CSB seems to do a better job at translating.
Praise the Lord! I’m so glad to hear that it was helpful. We do have a few international students, so I know we occasionally have them. You would have to ask the registrar specifically at the school to see what your particular situation would look like and if that would be feasible.
"I am no expert" never stopped anybody to express an opinion 😀. In that tradition, I find that in the cases analyzed here the "ki" is mostly followed by an explanation. How wrong am I?
How important might it be that some prophecy be about the House of Israel (lost after Assyrian captivity 722 BC never to return - yet) and the House of Judah (taken in Babylonian captivity 538 BC but did return after 70 yrs). No need for allegory. In other words does every mention of Israel mean Jewish or Jew when we know there were two houses, two kingdoms, and the two sticks would be united (yet future?)
Very labored so yes I did doze off toward the end. But appreciate the interpretation given in context. As in the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31 is there any reason why this verse could not be addressed to the future covenant community, of those who will not have been broken off from the olive tree of Romans 11, together with those who have been grafted in or back in by faith in Christ?
Well I’m glad to hear I contributed to helping you get some sleep! 😴 😄 I think Deut 4 is holistically set in a context addressing Israel during the time of Moses (rehashing their past and looking to their future). I think Romans 11 is definitely picking up on that prophecy and giving us insight as to when we can expect it to take place.
I’m not sure I understand the question exactly so forgive me if I’m missing what you’re asking. It has to be either prophetic or conditional based on verb forms and temporal markers used. Not really sure if there would be another option. Can you think of anything?
Hey Mike! The best lexicon right now is the Halot - Hebrew Aramaic Lexicon of the OT - but it can be difficult to look things up if you aren’t familiar with the Hebrew alphabet. If I were a layman, I would probably use the tools like blue letter Bible or some other source that has some free concise lexicons available.
@@thebiblesojourner Thanks! I have also seen where some suggest the BDB or the Holladay. I did just receive a 3rd addition of the BDAG for Greek. I just wished they had used Strong's numbers, it would have been helpful.
I was thinking of getting the CSB. I was just concerned that it was also paraphrase in some areas but I think it’s for the idioms. I usually use word for word translations.
Neither one of us uses anything wildly close to a word for word translation. (None exist.) If we did we wouldn’t be able to make heads or tails out of what we’re reading. But I get what you’re saying. Just glance real quick at Psalm 16:7. Where our translations usually say “heart” or “mind” the Hebrew word is “kidneys.” That stuff is everywhere. That’s why we need translators to make sense of Hebrew/Greek for us. And thank God for them! They keep us lay folk from losing our marbles. 🤗
The CSB is great! I thoroughly enjoy it. If you’re interested on my thoughts about Bible translations in general you might enjoy the second half of this video: m.th-cam.com/video/3z_Uf8Qgjjk/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUlVGhlIGJpYmxlIHNvam91cm5lciBiaWJsZSB0cmFuc2xhdGlvbg%3D%3D
Not just most of the Prophets. Literally EVERY single prophecy that Christians and Jews all agree are Messianic Prophecies, talk about the restoration of Israel to the land (and a restoration of burnt offerings by the sons of Levi).
Well well well. Once again we learn that God isn’t, so to speak, through with the Jew. Cool! Would you be willing to consider doing an episode someday explaining in layman’s terms the difference between your brand of dispensationalism and Bock/Wallace/Blaising? I don’t get why they call it “progressive” because even CTs see progression in God’s revelation. Before he died Ryrie and others threw a fit at those dudes but I never figured out what his beef was all about. No rush. Thanks for considering it. Great video today.
@@thebiblesojourner Dr. Fazio and Dr. Vlach did articles for JBTS explaining some of the distinctions between Classic Dispensationalism (Fazio / Ryrie) and Progressive Dispensationalism (Vlach / Breshears), but not with a comparison in mind. It would be cool to have Vlach and Marsh have a debate (as Breshears would say "try for") on it.
@ Yep. And others use the term “normative”. I understand why the Ds and Amils might want to duke it out but one thing that confuses me is why so much heat within the D camp? I admit I’m missing something here. Like I said, there’s no rush but I hope we get an episode sometime in 2025 and I think we will. One thing I love about this channel is that Dr. G can get nerdy without going over layman Joe’s head. Much needed today.
Even the prophets did not believe that though… neither did Jesus or the Apostles. So that seems to be problematic. The prophets after Cyrus continued to speak of a time of gathering that would take place after Israel repented. Plus in no way can we say Israel had repented under Cyrus.
🤣 I mean, I was just saying one word could be better translated in one specific verse. What’s your take on Deuteronomy 4.29? Side with LSB/CSB or some of the others?
No. It's about 'the end time' [now] , as one of the few passages befóre phrophets addressing it : b/c of 'tribulation' (30) and 'sons of sons' [we] (in 25) ; and in (29) it has said 'you will investigate + the there=scroll' (shm=sphr)' because He already tells 'that His scroll will be corrupted by the enemy' as *the* theme in prophets .
All that to say; LSB is more accurate than ESV, in this passage. HCSB and CSB drop the ball in verse 25, but pick it up in verse 29, so miss and hit for HCSB/CSB. LSB is consistent.
Agreed. 👍 It is interesting why there is such unity on this passage among other translations. Kind of fascinating given its repetition in Jeremiah. But I trust that there will be further debate on this into the future.
This is straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. The conjunction כי has quite a few meanings, and there is no means within this text or context to categorically state whether it's being used as a conditional or an adverb. If we gather all the Hebrew scholars in the world to discuss this one point, agreement would not be found to the end of time. The ambiguity is beneficial so that we can see both translations and find out both translations are biblical and applicable. I wouldn't have spent 41 minutes (or 41 seconds) teaching on this conjunction. But I would have spent 41 minutes teaching how to live this verse today and to have hope in it in the eschatological sense. But taking 41 minutes to say that this verse is translated wrongly when there's no way to prove it Seems to me a complete waste of time.
I appreciate you taking the time to give your thoughts. I would point out that theology and application is based on understanding the text (which is actually linked to translating it too!). So, you can’t actually teach someone how it applies unless you understand what it means. You are welcome to read article if you would like, and you might change your tune a little. Scholars don’t really disagree on how this word is typically used. That’s the whole point. It is a fairly obvious use of the כי clause if you follow the grammatical “rules”. Thanks again for your feedback! I really benefit from it!
The nature of prophecy is that it is not understood until it is fulfilled. The problem with relying only upon scholarship is that you will miss the understanding that God gives. You speak of “eschatology” which is normally understood as future events but of course Israel was gathered out of lands and restored after the 70 year exile. Who then is Israel? Or perhaps who then is the Israel of God? The emphasis is surely upon seeking Him with all the heart and that may be done at any time to be included in the Israel of God. That accords with the whenever of the Septuagint. We also know that more often than not when the New Testament cites the Old it follows the Septuagint rather than the Masoretic. This also lends weight to the authority of the Septuagint but it also appeals to the need for understanding from God. “If” may be more appropriate to the Jews before the Septuagint and “whenever” after, if you follow the implication. “If” may apply better to the rebellious and “whenever” to those seeking. It may be that translators are influenced by prevalent views of their times, but they should rather desire to know what the Spirit would have them say. A further point is how can we know that the modern scholarship is superior to the older scholars, as for example of the KJV. There appears to be a widespread assumption that this is so, but without undestanding how can that be known? So we come back to the fact that scholarship is limited and also needs the enlightenment of the Spirit. As the Spirit often prefers the Septuagint against the Masoretic then what does the Spirit say as regards translation? And of course, perhaps also an elephant in the room, so very much ignored in our modern times where the emphasis appears to be solely upon scholarship and using easy words, as if easy words gives understanding, do we not equally need the Spirit for understanding all Scripture? Even if we were all completely fluent in the original languages that alone would be of no benefit for understanding, as the testimony of those who were proves. Thank you for opening and discussing this point, but it is just the beginning and an appeal to seek understanding from God, out of His mouth, would have been most welcome. It wasn’t so much “fun,” as interesting, and stimulating, and my comment is as a friend not a foe! Thank you.
I really appreciate the tone of your message and am thankful for the interaction! I do disagree with a lot of your comment, but hopefully do so in an amiable way. The main disagreement seems to be your presupposition that the nature of prophecy is that it can’t be understood until it is fulfilled. If you think about it, that undermines the very purpose of prophecy. Prophecy is supposed to be so clear that it stands as stark evidence of Gods ability to control the future and show his power. Think about the prophecies about the messiah being from Judah and Bethlehem, etc. When Jesus came, everyone could verify whether he could be the Messiah or not because of specific prophecies. So, I would challenge you to consider the other side of that argument-prophecy is worthless if it is not clear. Because you wouldn’t know if it was being fulfilled.
@@thebiblesojourner You misunderstand. Certainly prophecy may be clear, especially in the specific examples that you refer, else how could it be prophecy. That seems to be something we would normally take as a given. The prophecy in Daniel told of the actual year of Christ’s coming to any who might have had understanding, and hundreds of years before. The naming of Cyrus likewise some 150 years before he fulfilled the prophecy. Despite being so very accurate, they didn’t know, and it is not until fulfilled that did any know. Even the disciples/Apostles who spent some three years with Christ Himself failed to comprehend even though He was quite explicit and clear. Even after His resurrection they did not fully understand until the coming of the Holy Spirit. That is the nature of prophecy to give promise and be confirmed at fulfillment. Thus it operates as a witness of truth and not a prediction of the future. That is surely its real purpose? So many miss this and take it upon themselves to forecast future events and with details as to how they are going to pan out, all of which is quite wrong and impossible to know. So much so they can even fail to recognize actual applications in their own lifetime, so taken up with predicting the future! We know only when it is actually fulfilled and perhaps it ought to be underlined, when our understanding is opened by the Lord. But having said this, the main point is that need for understanding from God, out of His mouth. We need that in all things and no less in translation. Sometimes in individual cases, details may be revealed privately to individuals as with Simeon that he would not die before seeing Christ and John whom the Lord showed who was to betray Him, but this is more for the glory and witness of God rather than individual gratification.The converse is true as where the man blind from birth lived his years blind for the glory of God when Christ healed him. So we need understanding from God both when it comes to translation and reading, more so in the latter if the former is lacking. This is not to decry scholarship but to realize both is role and its limitations. At this time we have some 200 modern translations into English, many differ and sometimes very seriously and often interpretation is employed rather than what it actually says, and the effect is to place too much emphasis upon scholarship and individual preferences, upon easy language, instead of receiving from God, and it causes confusion and an undermining of the truth. If only the effort devoted to translations and word studies were given to seeking from God and hearing Him. Again, not that there is not a place for scholarship, but it must be subservient to hearing God, out of His mouth. I take it you do not disagree with that?
Wonderful. Your exposition really puts God's Sovereignty on display.
Praise God! I’m thankful to hear Gods sovereignty was clearly revealed. That’s something we definitely need a double dose of!
Thank you!! Now, I am energized to study Greek and Hebrew for my spiritual enrichment. Thank you, and God bless you!
What a blessing! May the Lord grant you wisdom and grace to profit from the effort you put in.
Processing...Neurons disconnecting...new neuron connections creating. Those references to Isaiah definitely seal the deal! Great episode.
Praise God! It’s an intense episode, but glad you found some helpful things in it.
Good stuff as always Peter. I enjoy having your podcast in my headphones while working on my puzzles.
That's such a neat listening environment! What's the biggest puzzle you've completed?
@ I retired almost two years ago and my wife and I recently moved to SC from Maine. Been doing a lot of puzzles and the last time I did a 1000 piece it took me almost 3 weeks of working on it here and there. Working now on another 1000 piece but it is going easier with more contrast in the colors. The previous one was a Thomas Kincaid print which was difficult. The pastor of our church is a Master’s grad and a great church. He had Michael Vlach as a prof at Masters. Enjoy listening to you and other likeminded people on here. Blessings as you continue in this endeavor.
Thanks Peter
Loved it. Listened as I walked with my daughter and dog down to the river and drank in the glory of God in creation. Perfect background
You win the award for having such a great environment while listening to the podcast! I'm a little jealous--or maybe a lot!
@ 😂 thanks, I have a beautiful daughter too, and my dog’s pretty cute.
Happy new year brother and loved your podcast with Jeremy on Do theology. I’m a follower of theirs too. Really love the work you guys do, all of you in the foundations media group. Thanks for what you do, it really does help so much and really encourages and strengthens my faith.
It’s not wasted
@@danielwarton5343 Really appreciate that brother! Praise God for using us in small ways for His glory!
This is so nerdy!! I LOVE it!!! 🤓
Nerds unite! 🤓 Thanks for the encouragement! May God use it for His glory.
😊 I don't love "the nerdy stuff", but I do recognize its value and importance to your presentation, so keep it up.
Now I am going to dive into Deuteronomy because your teaching spurred some questions. Thank you for your podcasts. 😊
I definitely understand! And am encouraged you are motivated to dive into Deuteronomy. It is a fantastic and often neglected book!
Please write that book on escatology on the book of Deuteronomy!!
Well, at least someone would want to read it! 😄 Thanks for the encouragement toward that end.
I'll buy a copy! So thats two copies you've sold already. Haha
@@calebsymons6908make that three
Yup, I’d buy it too!
@@Deb-xm1jw You're too kind!
Excellent work. I really enjoyed your study of this verse and its translation. Did you look at the Vulgate? It seems that the Vulgate may have influenced the earliest English translations and then tradition carried along this unique translation decision. Martin Luther, in his German translation, didn't follow the Vulgate but went with "when" or 'wenn' in German.
I didn’t include the Vulgate in the article, but perhaps I should have. I think you are probably on to something with the influence on English. Do you know of any larger discussions of the Vulgates influence on English translations? It’s something I’ve wondered and would love to look more into it.
As far as the German, I didn’t even think to look at that! That’s some great info, thanks for alerting me to it.
@@thebiblesojourner I don't know of a specific article or book on the topic, but I have seen it quite often. For instance, James 2:2 has synagogue in the Greek, and Jerome was the first to translate it as something other than synagogue. So, when I find a translation decision that goes all the way back to the first English works, I then look at the Vulgate. I've also learned to look at Luther's work, because if Tyndale or other early translators depart from the Vulgate, they often do so because they are agreeing with Luther's work. In short, Bible translators generally like to have some precedence for a new decision. Modern translators, though, may be more innovative because they want to justify their new work. Keep up the good work.
@@aaronshryock274 Helpful! Thank you.
👍 Good Stuff 👍 Great Video ❤🙏
Appreciate that encouragement, thanks for watching!
All mainline translations are good, but I have really enjoyed reading the CSB. And this is not the first video highlighting verses that the CSB seems to do a better job at translating.
Yes, I'm a huge fan of the CSB. I was a bit sad when they took out the Yahweh translation of HCSB, but it is what it is.
@@thebiblesojourner Thanks for all your efforts Dr. Goeman! God bless!
Enjoyed it. Thank you!
Thanks for watching! Glad you found it enjoyable and helpful.
that was excellent!! Please Peter, do you have online programs at Shepherds for international students?
Praise the Lord! I’m so glad to hear that it was helpful. We do have a few international students, so I know we occasionally have them. You would have to ask the registrar specifically at the school to see what your particular situation would look like and if that would be feasible.
@ thank you!!
"I am no expert" never stopped anybody to express an opinion 😀. In that tradition, I find that in the cases analyzed here the "ki" is mostly followed by an explanation. How wrong am I?
That is not the only pattern to be found, but in most of them that is absolutely what you will find. Good insight.
How important might it be that some prophecy be about the House of Israel (lost after Assyrian captivity 722 BC never to return - yet) and the House of Judah (taken in Babylonian captivity 538 BC but did return after 70 yrs). No need for allegory. In other words does every mention of Israel mean Jewish or Jew when we know there were two houses, two kingdoms, and the two sticks would be united (yet future?)
Very labored so yes I did doze off toward the end. But appreciate the interpretation given in context. As in the New Covenant prophecy of Jer 31 is there any reason why this verse could not be addressed to the future covenant community, of those who will not have been broken off from the olive tree of Romans 11, together with those who have been grafted in or back in by faith in Christ?
Well I’m glad to hear I contributed to helping you get some sleep! 😴 😄 I think Deut 4 is holistically set in a context addressing Israel during the time of Moses (rehashing their past and looking to their future). I think Romans 11 is definitely picking up on that prophecy and giving us insight as to when we can expect it to take place.
But how did you come to the conclusion that this passage is prophetic and not something else?
I’m not sure I understand the question exactly so forgive me if I’m missing what you’re asking. It has to be either prophetic or conditional based on verb forms and temporal markers used. Not really sure if there would be another option. Can you think of anything?
Good stuff Dr. Goeman, very interesting. What are two or three of the best Hebrew lexicons you would suggest for the layman? Thanks!
Hey Mike! The best lexicon right now is the Halot - Hebrew Aramaic Lexicon of the OT - but it can be difficult to look things up if you aren’t familiar with the Hebrew alphabet. If I were a layman, I would probably use the tools like blue letter Bible or some other source that has some free concise lexicons available.
@@thebiblesojourner Thanks! I have also seen where some suggest the BDB or the Holladay. I did just receive a 3rd addition of the BDAG for Greek. I just wished they had used Strong's numbers, it would have been helpful.
@@mikeyonce2323 BDB is great (just older), and Holladay is more of a concise version of HALOT, so you are golden there if you have that.
@@thebiblesojourner Great! I may get them both. Thanks!
I was thinking of getting the CSB. I was just concerned that it was also paraphrase in some areas but I think it’s for the idioms. I usually use word for word translations.
Neither one of us uses anything wildly close to a word for word translation. (None exist.) If we did we wouldn’t be able to make heads or tails out of what we’re reading. But I get what you’re saying. Just glance real quick at Psalm 16:7. Where our translations usually say “heart” or “mind” the Hebrew word is “kidneys.” That stuff is everywhere. That’s why we need translators to make sense of Hebrew/Greek for us. And thank God for them! They keep us lay folk from losing our marbles. 🤗
The CSB is great! I thoroughly enjoy it. If you’re interested on my thoughts about Bible translations in general you might enjoy the second half of this video: m.th-cam.com/video/3z_Uf8Qgjjk/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUlVGhlIGJpYmxlIHNvam91cm5lciBiaWJsZSB0cmFuc2xhdGlvbg%3D%3D
@ I will watch it! Thank you!
Not just most of the Prophets. Literally EVERY single prophecy that Christians and Jews all agree are Messianic Prophecies, talk about the restoration of Israel to the land (and a restoration of burnt offerings by the sons of Levi).
You’re right. There is so much overlap between the Messianic prophecies and the promise of Israel’s restoration!
This is one of the reasons I bought the LSB as soon it was published. I am so grateful for the work these men did on this translation.
Amen! Dear brothers and faithful servants of Christ.
Well well well. Once again we learn that God isn’t, so to speak, through with the Jew. Cool!
Would you be willing to consider doing an episode someday explaining in layman’s terms the difference between your brand of dispensationalism and Bock/Wallace/Blaising? I don’t get why they call it “progressive” because even CTs see progression in God’s revelation. Before he died Ryrie and others threw a fit at those dudes but I never figured out what his beef was all about. No rush. Thanks for considering it. Great video today.
I appreciate the episode idea! I really want to do that. Perhaps I can work that in this year. Thanks!
@@thebiblesojourner Dr. Fazio and Dr. Vlach did articles for JBTS explaining some of the distinctions between Classic Dispensationalism (Fazio / Ryrie) and Progressive Dispensationalism (Vlach / Breshears), but not with a comparison in mind. It would be cool to have Vlach and Marsh have a debate (as Breshears would say "try for") on it.
Fazio / Marsh now prefer the term Traditional Dispensationalism (TD).
@ Yep. And others use the term “normative”. I understand why the Ds and Amils might want to duke it out but one thing that confuses me is why so much heat within the D camp? I admit I’m missing something here. Like I said, there’s no rush but I hope we get an episode sometime in 2025 and I think we will. One thing I love about this channel is that Dr. G can get nerdy without going over layman Joe’s head. Much needed today.
Yes, please do, I would love to see you do such a video.
39:00 the restoration happened in the days of Cyrus the Great.
Even the prophets did not believe that though… neither did Jesus or the Apostles. So that seems to be problematic. The prophets after Cyrus continued to speak of a time of gathering that would take place after Israel repented. Plus in no way can we say Israel had repented under Cyrus.
Keys of the Kingdom Bible - worked on by one man for 35 years. Review it, perhaps? Peace.
I’ll have to check it out!
People have been getting saved for hundreds of years based on those translations, yet here this guy comes and says they haven't been translated right.
🤣 I mean, I was just saying one word could be better translated in one specific verse. What’s your take on Deuteronomy 4.29? Side with LSB/CSB or some of the others?
Interestingly enough, it seems like the Septuagint translates it the same way you do.
Always great to get some help from the Greek!
No. It's about 'the end time' [now] , as one of the few passages befóre phrophets addressing it : b/c of 'tribulation' (30) and 'sons of sons' [we] (in 25) ; and in (29) it has said 'you will investigate + the there=scroll' (shm=sphr)' because He already tells 'that His scroll will be corrupted by the enemy' as *the* theme in prophets .
The end time was long ago.
@@williambrewer quick, call the news - an alien time traveller !
All that to say; LSB is more accurate than ESV, in this passage. HCSB and CSB drop the ball in verse 25, but pick it up in verse 29, so miss and hit for HCSB/CSB. LSB is consistent.
Agreed. 👍 It is interesting why there is such unity on this passage among other translations. Kind of fascinating given its repetition in Jeremiah. But I trust that there will be further debate on this into the future.
This is straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. The conjunction כי has quite a few meanings, and there is no means within this text or context to categorically state whether it's being used as a conditional or an adverb. If we gather all the Hebrew scholars in the world to discuss this one point, agreement would not be found to the end of time. The ambiguity is beneficial so that we can see both translations and find out both translations are biblical and applicable. I wouldn't have spent 41 minutes (or 41 seconds) teaching on this conjunction. But I would have spent 41 minutes teaching how to live this verse today and to have hope in it in the eschatological sense. But taking 41 minutes to say that this verse is translated wrongly when there's no way to prove it Seems to me a complete waste of time.
I appreciate you taking the time to give your thoughts. I would point out that theology and application is based on understanding the text (which is actually linked to translating it too!). So, you can’t actually teach someone how it applies unless you understand what it means. You are welcome to read article if you would like, and you might change your tune a little. Scholars don’t really disagree on how this word is typically used. That’s the whole point. It is a fairly obvious use of the כי clause if you follow the grammatical “rules”. Thanks again for your feedback! I really benefit from it!
The nature of prophecy is that it is not understood until it is fulfilled. The problem with relying only upon scholarship is that you will miss the understanding that God gives.
You speak of “eschatology” which is normally understood as future events but of course Israel was gathered out of lands and restored after the 70 year exile.
Who then is Israel? Or perhaps who then is the Israel of God?
The emphasis is surely upon seeking Him with all the heart and that may be done at any time to be included in the Israel of God. That accords with the whenever of the Septuagint.
We also know that more often than not when the New Testament cites the Old it follows the Septuagint rather than the Masoretic. This also lends weight to the authority of the Septuagint but it also appeals to the need for understanding from God.
“If” may be more appropriate to the Jews before the Septuagint and “whenever” after, if you follow the implication. “If” may apply better to the rebellious and “whenever” to those seeking.
It may be that translators are influenced by prevalent views of their times, but they should rather desire to know what the Spirit would have them say.
A further point is how can we know that the modern scholarship is superior to the older scholars, as for example of the KJV. There appears to be a widespread assumption that this is so, but without undestanding how can that be known?
So we come back to the fact that scholarship is limited and also needs the enlightenment of the Spirit. As the Spirit often prefers the Septuagint against the Masoretic then what does the Spirit say as regards translation?
And of course, perhaps also an elephant in the room, so very much ignored in our modern times where the emphasis appears to be solely upon scholarship and using easy words, as if easy words gives understanding, do we not equally need the Spirit for understanding all Scripture?
Even if we were all completely fluent in the original languages that alone would be of no benefit for understanding, as the testimony of those who were proves.
Thank you for opening and discussing this point, but it is just the beginning and an appeal to seek understanding from God, out of His mouth, would have been most welcome.
It wasn’t so much “fun,” as interesting, and stimulating, and my comment is as a friend not a foe!
Thank you.
I really appreciate the tone of your message and am thankful for the interaction! I do disagree with a lot of your comment, but hopefully do so in an amiable way. The main disagreement seems to be your presupposition that the nature of prophecy is that it can’t be understood until it is fulfilled. If you think about it, that undermines the very purpose of prophecy. Prophecy is supposed to be so clear that it stands as stark evidence of Gods ability to control the future and show his power. Think about the prophecies about the messiah being from Judah and Bethlehem, etc. When Jesus came, everyone could verify whether he could be the Messiah or not because of specific prophecies. So, I would challenge you to consider the other side of that argument-prophecy is worthless if it is not clear. Because you wouldn’t know if it was being fulfilled.
@@thebiblesojourner
You misunderstand. Certainly prophecy may be clear, especially in the specific examples that you refer, else how could it be prophecy. That seems to be something we would normally take as a given.
The prophecy in Daniel told of the actual year of Christ’s coming to any who might have had understanding, and hundreds of years before. The naming of Cyrus likewise some 150 years before he fulfilled the prophecy. Despite being so very accurate, they didn’t know, and it is not until fulfilled that did any know. Even the disciples/Apostles who spent some three years with Christ Himself failed to comprehend even though He was quite explicit and clear. Even after His resurrection they did not fully understand until the coming of the Holy Spirit.
That is the nature of prophecy to give promise and be confirmed at fulfillment. Thus it operates as a witness of truth and not a prediction of the future. That is surely its real purpose?
So many miss this and take it upon themselves to forecast future events and with details as to how they are going to pan out, all of which is quite wrong and impossible to know. So much so they can even fail to recognize actual applications in their own lifetime, so taken up with predicting the future! We know only when it is actually fulfilled and perhaps it ought to be underlined, when our understanding is opened by the Lord.
But having said this, the main point is that need for understanding from God, out of His mouth. We need that in all things and no less in translation.
Sometimes in individual cases, details may be revealed privately to individuals as with Simeon that he would not die before seeing Christ and John whom the Lord showed who was to betray Him, but this is more for the glory and witness of God rather than individual gratification.The converse is true as where the man blind from birth lived his years blind for the glory of God when Christ healed him.
So we need understanding from God both when it comes to translation and reading, more so in the latter if the former is lacking. This is not to decry scholarship but to realize both is role and its limitations.
At this time we have some 200 modern translations into English, many differ and sometimes very seriously and often interpretation is employed rather than what it actually says, and the effect is to place too much emphasis upon scholarship and individual preferences, upon easy language, instead of receiving from God, and it causes confusion and an undermining of the truth.
If only the effort devoted to translations and word studies were given to seeking from God and hearing Him. Again, not that there is not a place for scholarship, but it must be subservient to hearing God, out of His mouth.
I take it you do not disagree with that?
Just trolling, use the LXX...😂
😂 I love it!