So I upgraded from the Ortofon Bronze to the Ortofon Black LVB250 and…
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.ค. 2024
- I recently decided to upgrade from the Ortofon 2M Bronze to the Ortofon 2M LVB250 Black. Was it worth it? Did I notice a difference?
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Hi. I always enjoy the pace and content of your videos. Thank you.
I have been on a similar cartridge journey although I went red, blue, then straight to 2M LVB250 black a few months ago and I agree with all your comments.
Give it the recommended 100-hour break-in time before you fully assess its true performance.
I had another reason to choose the LBV250, and that was that I wanted the best moving magnet cartridge, as I decided I did not want to go down the rabbit hole that is moving coil.
I have recently added a Graham Slee phono amp and only last week an Iso-Slice isolation platform with both providing more rich clarity.
I think I have reached as close to that elusive perfection as I need to go!
Out of interest, I have a Pro-Ject 2X turntable, a Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 amplifier feeding the wonderful Zu Audio DWX speakers.
My best wishes to you.
Lissi
Thank you Lissi! Wow - I didn't realize the recommended break-in period was 100 hours. I'm probably 1/4 of the way there at this point. I also didn't want to go down the rabbit hole (and expense) of a MC cartridge. I'm glad I didn't. I'm very happy with the LVB250. I've heard of the Graham Slee products but not too familiar with them. Great to hear you have experience with one. I too just purchased some isolation feet for my turntable from Soundeck. Waiting for them to come in. If I'm happy with them I'll probably post about it.
Nice, I have the blue now and really love it. I am looking at the Bronze and the LBV as an upgrade.
Nice video. I appreciate your uncertainty in trying to distinguish the apparent changes in sound and musical appreciation. There's so many variables that go into our listening experiences, it's hard to isolate a single one that's making the difference. Kudos for not being definitive.
I've used a Dynavector 10x5 for years now (still with the original non-replaceable stylus, as I religiously clean my vinyl) and it's great. I've considered others, but as long as the stylus/cartridge is performing, I'm leaving it be for now. BTW, it's attached to a SME V5 tonearm on a Clearaudio Champion 2 turntable. It's my best ever set-up.
Folks love the Dynavector and I'm happy to hear you do as well. BTW - great turntable David!
About 18 months ago I upgraded from a 2M Blue to Bronze and it was a decent improvement though the Blue is pretty good. I recently purchased a 2M Black (non LVB) stylus but haven’t installed it yet because my Bronze still has a little life left in it. My system is not “high end” but still decent. I have a feeling that I won’t notice a huge improvement with the black. Also my room isn’t as ideal for listening as I would like it to be. I have an apartment so not much I can do about that. I have a feeling I may end up going back to the Bronze when the Black needs replacing. Maybe I’m wrong and the Black will sound better but sometimes you don’t know the limit until you exceed it a little bit.
Good point. I will say it's not a vast improvement. I was very happy with the Bronze.
I love the 2M black the only issue is that records have to be very clean since it picks up every little noise and and imperfections of the record. That’s the reason many people go to the bronze instead of the black. Great review.
Thanks Jerry! Excellent callout on keeping the records clean.
On reason the Black is so sensitive to to dust etc might it's output. It's really high. According to some measurements I've it's more like 7-7.5mV than 5.5 as claimed in Ortofons specs. Now, many modern phono pre-amp have a rather slim overload margin and doesn't like an output that high. It might still sound good but even really small bits of dust of noise might cause the phono to overload which will make pops and clicks way more audible and annoying.
@@felixfranzen7318 Thanks Felix! Learning a lot here,.
If you want a cartridge that tracks so well that sounds like digital buy a Hana
Have to disagree . Clean your records properly
The AT540ML rigby is phenomenal.!!
I have a Pro ject RPM 6.1SB turntable that I bought some time ago now. Back then the turntable didn't come with a cartridge, so I had a Pickering xv15 625 e cartridge fitted ( Stanton ) in the USA . Unfortunately I was unable to get genuine replacement stylus here in the UK. I was left with no option but to change cartridge. After getting advice from the dealer, I went for a GOLDRING ELITE moving coil cartridge. I have had a number of Ortophon cartridges in the past on previous turntables, but always found the sound to be very bright. As I collect records from the 1950s and 60s, mainly USA releases I am more than happy with the GOLDRING.
Hi Philip! Thanks for the recommendation. I am compiling a list of MC carts for next year and just added this based on your experience with it.
Great video with an interesting topic. I have an Audio Technica turntable that original came with the AT-VM 95E cartridge and needle. Nice sound with that one, but I immediately upgraded to the AT-VM 95SH. The sound became much better. Then I started sniffing at the AT-VM 95ML. Today I'm switching between ML and SH. It is difficult to decide which one is the best, but I'm leaning a little more towards the SH. But they are both very good (my opinion of course) cartridges / needles. I really hope that the thing with your company will work out to your benefit. Enjoy your weekend 😁 All the best from Kristiansand - Norway 😁
Cheers Norway! This is the third or fourth time in the last month someone has brought up the VM 95 series. Must sound great!
I went from a 95E to a 95EN to a 95ML. Amazing the clearer and crisper sound. I haven't tried the SH, because I'm on a limited budget! Have a good weekend.
@@stanleycostello9610 You as well Stanley!
I enjoyed your video here! I have an AT 150MLX. Needed to replace the stylus and didn’t know what to do since they no longer make the stylus it came with. I bought what they said to get and it was ok. I got an Ortofon Bronze, which was also good. But I was in that search for a sizable improvement mode so I traded the Beonz stylus for a black, not the 250 though. I was enjoying the black but sometimes it came off a bit harsh to me. I found a guy online who does retipping and after much back and forth with him I wound up having him retip the original AT 150 boron stylus. Oh mama! That one was a home run!!! I still use the black from time to time, but that 150 with the retipped (kinda supper microline) stylus is just so fantastic! Detailed but smooth. Wide soundstage but very present. I sometimes wonder if I should have gone with the 250. But I figure I spent enough as it is.
I have the Bronze and I love the music it makes. Id love a Black LVB 250.
The bronze is an amazing cart. I have no qualms going back to it if I ever had to.
Thanks for the review. I just upgraded from the Blue to Bronze and I thought the difference in soundstage and clarity was remarkable. Really enjoying my music which is similar in taste to yours so much more lol! The LVB 250 will be my next upgrade but I wonder if the difference will be worth the cost but I guess for a couple hundred dollars more why not right?
Hi! I will say it’s not night and day like what you experienced with the blue to bronze. I heard an improvement in clarity with the LVB250, enough so that I’ll most likely replace it with another LVB. If I had to go back to the bronze it wouldn’t break my heart either. Great cartridge and it’s great that the cart handles both styli.
I am on my second 2M Bronze, and have been very happy. I have a Technics Sl-1200, Sutherland KC Vibe, and Yamaha A-S1200. If it’s not broken, don’t fix it. 😀
Words of wisdom right there. Thanks Jeff!
Great video. I haven’t try the 250 but I been open to try it I had the black wish I didn’t like it that much I prefer the bronze over the black but I heard good things a bout the 250.
I use the 2m on my pro Ject x2 but favorite is the denon 103r which I used on my technics. On the MM I had more expensive carts but I always come to bronze and on the MC side I tried many and always come back to denon dl 103r.
I looked long and hard at the Denon myself. Maybe one day...
Thank you dear Rick for all your videos. I‘m struggling. So first of all, I wish you a Merry Christmas, belated. I hope you had some full vinyl? socks. I've been writing these lines for a few hours now. So, where should I start?
My journey as a DJ (clubs and first private radio stations) began in the 80s with the Ortofon Concorde Nightclubs, of course. What else? Everything else was considered rubbish by all of the experts at that time. Now, as the proud owner of a 1200G, a Concorde Century 100 naturally had to grace the battleship.
Unfortunately, the sound is not quite the yellow of the egg. There were so many things that doesn’t taste so fine. Of course, a huge improvement compared to the Concorde Nightclubs. What a miracle?
Why I‘m struggling, now? Don’t compare the pure datas in the official datasheets from Ortofon between a LVB 250 and the Century 100, please. Maybe you understand what I mean.
Surely I have become too sensitive in the meantime?
Can I hear the grass growing?
A Hana ML now equips the tonearm.
In the meantime, I'm strongly leaning between an AT-ART9XA from Audio Technica or the van den Hul MC 10 Special.
I hope I haven't brought down the possibly intact Ortofon world. But it's nice to see that many people are also making an interesting journey.
May all the good and best music be with you and all of you.
Servus from a long-time silent subscriber here in 🤍💙 Bavaria
Season's Greetings Bavaria!
The 1200G is a work of art. And I get the struggle. What has your experience with the Hana ML been? That is one of the MC carts I am looking at for when I dive into the world of MC. You mentioned the AT-ART9XA, which is another one on my wish-list. Is there something you find lacking in the Hana's presentation that brings you to looking at other options?
As Van DenHul himself has stated in an internet paper, it's all about the moving mass of the stylus. Of course, he was assuming his reader would know of the design complexities of cartridges, and grasp the importance of his emphasis.
I like the black LVH featured here because it has superior features to most carts in that price range.
Agree with you about the Ortofon 2M cartridges, I have just purchased a new Technics 1210GR2 and fitted it with the 2M Black, sound stage is WIDE and the tonal quality to my ears is excellent, I am very satisfied with the set up, will I try different cartridges, certainly will after listening to this for 6 months or so, second headshell and cart for easy swap outs.
Cheers Ian!
Great review man, I was watching for comparison between bronze and black myself. I wanted to hear opinion from someone who used both to know what is the margin of difference between two and is it worth the price. I am cooking myself some Ortofon review too
I'm glad it helped! Thank you for letting me know 😎
I currently have the Ortofon 2m Black on a Thorens TD125 MK2 and an Ortofon 2m Blue on a TD125 MK1. Interestingly it's a slightly better match, the 2M high compliance on the older heavier tonearm of the MK1 (They use different versions of the SME 3009). Performance is surprisingly close but the black is smoother and slightly more detailed in higher frequencies. So I'd say having the right tonearm for the 2m series is essential to get the most out of them.
I couldn't agree more about matching to the tonearm. I ran across this great calculator for evaluating cartridge's and tonearms: www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php?eff_mass=11&submit=Submit
Have also gone through the 2M red blue black (normal). The 2MBlack is a backup cartridge when I had to send in my Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC* MI cart for repair. The 2MBblack is perfectly nice, but the SS has quite a bit more detail, but also 2x$. I went straight from 2Mblue to SS, so cannot comment on 2Mblue vs 2Mblack. Once you go to MC/MI carts (maybe even with the better MM carts), then the phono stage is also important. On the SS, I upgraded from a Vincent PHO701 with upgraded Brimar NOS tube to a EAT eglow petite, and it opened the sound significantly. I am curious about the new PrimaLuna EVO 100 phono stage. Not rushing into anything, but looking around at various phono upgrades ...
The Soundsmith is a beautiful cart. I might need to consider diving into MC cartidges next time around - probably in a year or two. The phono stage I'm using is an all tube solution from Tavish Design (the Classic).
I have been using the 2M black on a VPI Prime with the 3D printed arm. Very pleased with it.
My next change will be to a Soundswmith moving iron. It has been noted as a good pairing with the Prime and a well regarded company. Love the 2M black tho. Its running into a Sutherland Insight preamp which provided a major improvement over the onboard pre in my Mc integrated. Greg
Hi Greg! The VPI is a work of beauty. I didn't realize they also offered a 3d printed arm.
I have a VPI superprime scout with SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC* cart as my main cart. I also have used a 2M black on it. The SS opens the sound and also gives more detail than the 2Mblack. With the SS, the phonostage is just as important. I first had a Vincent PHO701 with upgraded Bimar NOS tube, then moved to EAT eglow petite. The improvement was much more than that going from 2Mblack to SS. Consider upgrading phono stage further, possibly PrimaLuna EVO 100 phono. Use the EVO300 pre and like it quite a bit. my 2c. Enjoy our SS when it arrives.
@@danielgeiger7739 thanks Daniel for the encouragement. Some very good information.
I really enjoyed the moving iron cartridge that B and O put out, ( a design from which sound smith grew from B and O repair only, to manufacturing , as you probably know), you have a very sound plan, even if the sound smith cartridge that I like the best is unreasonably expensive for my needs
Decades ago when I started buying lp's in earnest I bought a very good cart, an Audio-Technica AT15SS. Life happened and there were years when I listened to my records and a lot of years when I didn't listen to them. I've replaced the stylus five or six times. When I found them I would usually bought two. Can't find them any more so, recently I bought an Audio-Technical AT-VM95SH. I guess I'm not in the big league yet. I've always had a very modest system, back in the old days I bought a used system and my cart cost more than the whole system. Even If I could afford it my vintage 70's turntable doesn't have VTA, I'm going to have to jury rig it to get AT-VM95SH to work. The good news is that my records from the late 70's still sound great!
It’s so funny you said that. Tonight my wife and I are listening to records I bought in 1983 and 1979 respectively. They sound amazing. I dont consider myself close to the big league (I’m just now considering an MC cart which some folks who have commented like to belittle me because I could never afford it before). We are all on a music enjoyment journey. Thanks for being here!
Hi Rick. Good video. My Technics changer has an Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge, which I really like, and my new U-Turn Orbit Theory came with an Ortofon 2M Bronze. I like both cartridges a lot, but don't know if I'd upgrade to the Black. It's a little out of my price range.
Oh - you bought the new U-Turn model. What do you think? Until a couple years ago I used a custom Orbit which I enjoyed. I still use it once in awhile if I'm in the upstairs office. They've improved the speed changing correct? No longer have to move the belt?
I am limited with upgrading cartridges on my Garrard DD-455 however, I replaced the AT PRO 11E with the 2M Blue with excellent results, tracking and playback.
The Blue is a good cart. I've always said it just needs the right setup
Enjoyed your review....I am verry happy with the AT- VM 95ML and have had it now a couple of years, still sounds great ! I listen to my vinyl up to 3 times a week on avg. My question now is how often should one change the stylus cartridge ? In past I only changed them out if I could actually hear some beginnings of sound quality loss.
It depends on a few factors - things like proper tracking force settings, anti-skate, etc., but a really good rule of thumb is between 1000-1200 hours of listening time. For example - I've used Ortofon for years and they recommend around 1000 hours. I listen on overage 2-3 hours a day. So I change mine once a year around April (although last year I cheated and bought the LVB250 in October). I could do it every 18 months and still be fine. I hope that helps.
Thanks Rick, appreciate this ! I just learned 1000 hrs for the ML, so I just ordered a new stylus cartridge @@TheJoyofVinylRecords
I use Moving Coil cartridges now The Denon 110 anniversary addition on My Technics 1210gr and a Hana on my VPI scout , sound stage is definitely wider with moving coil in my setup
Thanks Gary! Which Hana are you using? That's the one I will eventually be looking at.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Hana EL 6517
Hi Rick, thanks for the insight on your experience with upper level Ortofon styli, I am checking out prices on the Bronze and Black cartridges after I post my comment.
I currently have a 2M Red on my old Marantz 6300 and it sounds great on that deck. I liked it so much that I stuck with a Red replacement for the worn stylus when that time came. I may upgrade to a Blue replacement stylus when the time comes though, because...
...when it was time to replace the o.g. Pickering cartridge that my Thorens TD-160 came with, I chose to replace that entire cartridge with a 2M Blue. It sounded slightly brighter than the Red but not a huge difference. Although, it seemed to have a bit of a break in period to my ears as the Blue sounded a bit better, with more detail to me with each new spin. I love it now. Maybe it was a psychological phenomenon?
Lastly, I recently needed to replace a d.o.a. Pioneer deck on our living room system, so I opted for one of U-Turn's custom Orbit decks, a brand I have been keeping an eye on since back in their crowd funded days. So I customized it and cherry picked each feature on it. I opted for a Grado green cartridge to be installed on that one. Something totally different than what I've ever had in the past. The Grado's add-on price fell right between U-Turn's 2M Red or Blue options, so I gave it a whirl. It sounds great for the price I paid for that TT and I got a lot of bang for the buck.
Sorry about the lengthy comment, I've been watching your channel since last winter but this was the first time I felt the urge to comment. I guess I had too much to say.
P.S. But wait, there's more! You asked about the U-Turn speed changing in response to a previous comment, they do offer an electronic speed changing option now, but that was the one upgrade I did not opt for. I kind of like the manual method of moving the belt and don't see it being something I would have to do very often on this system as it is mainly used for playing jazz LPs.
Hi Dominick! I too have a Thorens TD 160 (love it). I don't think you were imagining things with the Blue sounding better with every listen. I experienced that as well. I've enjoyed each cart, from the Blue on up. My Orbit in the upstairs office is using the Blue. I need to listen to that one more often.
I have a 2m Bronze with a few hundred hrs on it. No issues with it, but I did find I prefer the Denon Dl-103 sound better. The Denon costs less but with the SUT I havve in-line I'm well into 2m Black 250 territory. If I get adventurous I would likely grab a Hana to listen to next. Happy for you that you're enjoying the Black!
Hi Todd! I am also very interested in the Hana. It may be my next one.
Great honest review.
Out of the three (Blue/Bronze/LVB0250) which one do you think is the best bang for your buck?
Also which one made the biggest improvement in sound from the predecessor?
I would still stick with the LVB250, I'm impressed, but to save some money the Bronze isn't far behind at all. Depending on the turntable it may not be a huge difference between the two. Both are big improvements over the blue to me (and I like the blue).
Hi I am running the m2 blue on my technics 1210 mk 2 witch I am happy with. Just as well really being on a i limited budget ,I carnt justify the expenditure at this time for the foreseeable future it won’t be changed. Loved your take on the m2 black special edition, perhaps one day, I might get the m2 black
Absolutely nothing wrong with the blue. Great stylus and one I used happily for years. If by chance I went back to it for some reason I wouldn't hesitate.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords thank you for your reply I will save up and one day make the leap. Keep up the good work on your channel yours ian 🇬🇧
Hi, my cartridges are the AT VM95ML, AT VM95SH, AT 540, Denon DL 103r. My favourite is the Denon, especially on voices.
The Denon 103r comes up a lot in conversations. I've added your recommendations to the list.
The Denon 103 and Goldring 1042 are on of the most tonally correct cartridge's available
Very nice and honest review. Last year i upgraded from 2M Bronze to 2M Black (by replacing only the stylus) on my Technics SL-1210 MK2. Why? I loved the bronze but i simply was curious. I think the black sounds more clinical and more precise and it combines perfectly with my Technics turntable. So i stick with it - like you with the 250 - would be interesting to compare the base Black with the LVB 250....
If I ever have the opportunity I'd like to do a comparison of the two.
I use a stylus timer to actually keep track of hours of use. Helps knowing when to change a stylus. Have never owned an Ortofon. I am a big Nagaoka fan. For years used the MP 150, but heard a huge improvement with the MP 200, which uses a boron cantilever. This stylus can be used with the MP150 cartridge body.
I really like the idea of a stylus timer, Fred.I basically set a time each year to consider changing. Not sure if I will try something new or stick with the LVB250. I'm really intrigued by MC carts.
I love the black and denon 103r.
The Denon 103r gets a lot of love.
Rick, I visit my local high-end store (in Verona, New Jersey) every year. It is where I purchased my stereo. They typically have an annual guest.
This past Saturday, Richard Vandersteen was their guest, and the store demonstrated his new pre-amp.
Anyway...
Each time I visit, they almost always have a new cartridge (and sometimes a new turntable) in their flagship room.
Their standard cartridge is Clearaudio's Stradivari (not sure if it is the v2 version). Ten years ago, that was a $3,000 cartridge. It is a very good cartridge -- but nothing special, to my ear.
This past Saturday, they had hana's flagship cartridge (not sure of the model or price, but they told me it was hana's top model). Until this past Saturday, I never heard of that brand.
The hana cartridge was very good. It did everything right It easily bested the Stradivari. But it held back (in a manner of speaking). Why do I say that?
Approximately 10 years ago, Garth Leerer of Musical Surroundings was their guest. He brought in Clearaudio's Goldfinger Statement cartridge ($16,000 back then, if I am remembering correctly).
Rick, I have never forgotten how amazing that cartridge was. Nothing I have heard can touch it. It is in a league of its own. Yes, there are probably other elite cartridges that can compete with it -- but I have never heard them (probably never will).
If I were to win the lottery, I would order that Goldfinger Statement cartridge on that very day. It dug everything out of the groove. Whatever that little bit more you wish a good cartridge would do or deliver, well, the Goldfinger Statement did it.
So save your pennies, and mortgage your home. Do whatever you have to do to buy that cartridge. And be sure to professionally dial it in.
By the way...
Do you dial in your own cartridge / tone-arm / turntable? Or do you have a turntable guru with the tools and the know-how that does it for you?
In my case, I use the audio store's turntable guru. He is an expert, and has all of the tools. I am neither skilled in that sonic art, nor possess the tools.
If you have not expertly dialed it in, then you are missing out. A lesser cartridge, professionally dialed in, will outshine much better cartridges that are misaligned -- if even only slightly misaligned. It is almost like tube swapping (well, not exactly). Professionally aligning your cartridge is like landing a great sounding set of tube. You still have the same pre-amp, and now you are hearing it like never before And your stylus will last longer, too, when dialed in with precision.
I'll have to remember that about the Goldfinger. One can dream right? I've never heard the Hana in action although I understand Dave over at Vinyl Nirvana (who put together my turntable) has started using Hana on request or on some of the models he makes for sale.
I do dial my own in. I am definitely not a guru (not by any stretch of the imagination!) but I understand enough to be dangerous and like to know how to do things. A couple months ago I haphazardly spun the anti-skate and tracking weight so I could set everything back up from scratch just to know I could.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords I am not sure if I ever posted the below list of settings. But if you missed any of them, then you are not getting the most out of your records.
-- the effective length of the tone-arm
-- the cartridge's weight
-- the vertical tracking alignment / rake angle
-- the anti-skating
-- the overhang
-- the offset
-- the zenith angle
-- the cartridge's azimuth.
I gathered that list, mostly from videos of Michael Fremer demonstrating cartridge set-up.
For the azimuth, you have to use a special pressing and an oscilloscope (or something like that -- I am not exactly sure, but it is not part of the typical turntable set-up toolkit).
I also took note of one of Fremer's cautionary notes:
"The worst case scenario includes when a cartridge manufacturer installs the stylus into the cantilever at an improper angle. This happens occasionally on multi-thousand dollar cartridges, and probably happens regularly on sub-thousand dollar cartridges."
By the way, it is the Goldfinger Statement (I am not sure if there was ever a non "Statement" Goldfinger). I heard the Goldfinger Statement.
@@NoEgg4u Great list - I havent seen this before :)
I was open to reading about the necessity of proper alignment , I would expect that insight would be acquired along with the turntable, and that anyone interested in a cartridge review would know that , but I guess some people have to be told.
For myself, I would never trust such a critical task as a cartridge alignment to anyone. I might choose to pay someone to do it for me, but I feel the tools and the understanding to be able to check the accuracy of the work are beneficial. I guess it all depends on your relationship with who is doing the work. Since I do all the set up stuff myself, my relationship is great and I have a great trust proper results will be achieved, after much improper language.
Very honest comments. I find the Ortofon cartridges very expensive, compared to their equivalent AT cartridges.
Thank you Mario. I appreciate you watching.
Somebody’s else mentioned Michael Fremer’s comment concerning kilobuck cartridges found to have misaligned styli new out of the box. These cartridges are invariably from small, boutique brands. That’s why I always would only consider buying from the big boys, like Ortofon and Audio Technica who make massive numbers of cartridges for decades and decades and have mastered the art of manufacturing consistency and quality control, even in their budget offerings.
Completely agree with everything you've said!
Someone I talked with a handful of times who had a very fine system, said the Ortofon Black circa 10 years ago couldn't hold a candle to a NOS 1990s Audio Technics moving coil cartridge. I think it was the model 5 cartridge. They had an ATF 3 and top of the line ATF 7 also. Cantilevers don't weigh much, it's the magnets that have more significant weight. Playing an lp with a moving magnet cartridge is like running through an obstacle course with Army Boots on. Where the near weightless tiny coils of a moving coil cartridge, (instead of magnets), is like running through the course with a pair of Nike sneakers on. Moving coil cartridges find and extract detail from the groove that moving magnets generally can't. Harry Pearson, former editor of The Absolute Sound said that only moving coils have real transparency. According to his idea of what degree constituted true transparency. Moving coils are notably faster in transient response, more open and three dimensional too; and often by no small margin. For the price of a cartridge like that; you could be getting worlds of improvement, instead of something you can barely notice.
When I played a lot of lps, I would upgrade my stylus every 3 or 4 years. I used upper model Audio Technica a lot, which are known to have finely polished diamonds. Your cartridges suspension is likely to degrade far sooner than your diamond wearing out, if your cartridge has a finely polished diamond.
I had some experience with vintage AKG Moving Iron cartridges. They had the speed of moving coils but maybe not quite the openness and 3 dimensionality of good moving coils. The company Astatic used to make cartridges using the moving flux principle, said to offer moving coil characteristics with hiher output. Great tone colors and a brighter sound. Ortofon in the past also came out with Variable Magnetic Shunt cartridges in their vintage VMS series, which are great NOS cartridges to locate. Still not a good moving coil in all ways though. What I seen in a review once sticks with me, and I think it's true. The reviewer said "With the moving magnet, the record sounded like a good recording; with the moving coil; it sounded real."
Alot to think about. I have yet to experience a moving coil on my system and I'm a little afraid I will love it and then have an entirely new thing to obsess about 😳
Moving coil is the best type of cartridge for sound quality. You can never go back; I think. Maybe the only ones who can go back to moving magnet, are the ones who got rid of their turntable with a good MC cartridge years and years ago, and forgot how good it sounded. I have never heard a moving magnet cartridge like the $2,000 Clearaudio Charisma. But I'd guess a good $700 moving coil would still beat it for such things as transient speed, transparency and depth imaging. I think the one I would try is the Hana ML model moving coil cartridge at $1200 retail. You would need a preamp with enough gain for an MC cartridge. MC cartridges generally need at least a medium mass to heavier tonearm. Their suspension is not as compliant, and they put a lot of energy into the headshell. Magnesium or wood headshells I'd use, if ones tonearm has a removeable headshell. They are by far the most fun headshells to have; as you can switch back and forth between cartridges. MC cartridges are well worth any extra trouble.
I remember my first moving coil cartridge. I couldn't stop playing all my favorite records to hear how they'd sound fully clarified. It went into the wee hours of the morning, and I had to call off work the next morning, due to lack of sleep. Some moving coil cartridges hold back on warmth. They might be designed that way, as many people with MC cartridges have a tube preamp, whose forte is also openness, depth and 3 dimensionality; and tube preamps fill in the missing warmth. How much warmth differs between MC cartridges.Tubes and MC are a match made in heaven. As I said, a cartridges suspension will degrade usually well before the diamond wears out, and when they hear slight mistracking starting; people assume it's their stylus, when it is really their suspension. What is the main thing that speeds up premature cartridge suspensions wearing out?... Playing warped records; according to A.J. Van den hul, who is probably the most famous high end cartridge designer of all time.
@@sidesup8286 Man, you have me really wanting to try out an MC cart. Ugh! Fortunately, when I take the plunge my Tavish Tube phonostage will handle it.
I can remember all the way back to the 1980s reading cartridge reviews in magazines and they all pretty much seemed to say the same thing. "This Dynavector moving coil digs out detail from the groove you never knew was there." Or "this Satin brand movel coil cartridge unravels the orchestral fabric like we have never experienced before." I've owned over 100 different pieces of audio equip. in my years, upgrading often, and it's usually like a 10 to 20% improvement. When I upgraded from a Micro Acoustics 2002e electret cartridge (an above average cartridge; if a little bright) to my first moving coil cartridge; it was one of only 4 times that something other than a speaker change made a 40% improvement. And usually even speaker upgrades don't make that much improvement. A 5% improvement is subtle but clearly audible, but at first you may wonder if you could be imagining. A 30% improvement is a whole new listening experience. 40% is a whole new listening plus. The only other non speaker upgrades that made a 40% improvement in the past was 1.going from a Dual brand turntable to a top of the line Thorens tt. 2.Going from a Sansui receiver to a Carver preamp with the Sonic Holography circuit and their matching cube power amp. 3. Going to a 60 pound isolation base. 4. MIT MH770 Ultralinear II speaker cables, which sounded amazing on brighter recordings to too warm on too many of them, so I reluctantly had to return them. They were amazing & superior enough cables though, that I seriously considered upgrading my whole system to suit them. I would have had to go shopping for nothing but bright sounding components.
The Black LVB is good but insanely expensive. For that money I would like to see an even more advanced diamond than the Shibata. Like a Micro-Line/Micro-Ridge used by Audio-Technica. Now, Ortofon don't use that particular type of stylus tip. But they use the Fritz Gyger FG70 on the OM40 (which technically is better than the Black) and the Ortofon Replicant on some of their top of the line MC's. Both are more advanced than the Shibata. They could've slapped on something like that on the LVB and still turn a profit, several other makers does it.
Hey Felix! I will be jumping into the world of MC carts sometime next year. Any recommendations?
After video demos I thought the Bronze was actually more honest than the Black OR the LVB 250. The latter having an increased sense of brightness in the upper mids, that could be perceived as more detail with a faster presentation, especially with more orchestral arrangements. The Bronze seemingly a slightly slower, but more natural(neutral) tone, highlighting vocals and smaller bands.
Interesting P.G. I didn't hear it that way. I'll have to swap them out for a few listens with the Bronze again.
Does the Bronze 2m still have deep bass as well as high treble. I read a review that the Bronze was good for classical and jazz. Not so good for rock.
Hi Chris. It does, but now that the LVB 250 has broken in I think the bass is a bit better than what I had with the Bronze. I might have to go back to the Bronze for a couple days to be sure, but that's been my impression over the last couple of weeks.
I would be interested in your take once the stylus gets broken in.
I will definitely do an update, especially if i hear a change (for better or worse).
On both of my Dual turntables I have Shure. My CS-5000 Dual, a belt drive with quartz lock speed motor employes a Shure V15 type V. And my Dual 701, a direct drive fully automatic table has a Dual M97xE. I have tried other carts since I have had Dual tables from the 70's. I tried a Grado. (hated it's buzzing that they are notorious for) I have tried Ortofon OM 20. and OM 30. The 30 was really good. But I have to say I love the Shure(s). But I am contemplating a Ortofon black some day- not sure when. I don't replace MM carts. Only styli. I would say be careful about crossing that line from "fun" audio enthusist, to getting (more serious) "why so serious?" with moving coil. I would NEVER ever make that step. Bank account and fun factor goes out the window. I would only consider moving coil if I have a wide array of Macintosh units, tube amp and 30,000 speakers. Like I said, say goodbuy to the fun factor.
I get that. I am so tempted to go moving coil but have concerns because it will be another rabbit hole and expense. Like you, I want to keep it fun without dipping into obsessive,
Comparing the bronze to the black is like comparing a Honda to a Porsche.
Good choice of Carole King. I like Linda Ronstadt too.
Cheers! 🍺
I see Ortofon have a new range of cartridges called the 2M R (reduced) specifically for tonearms with no height adjustment allowing better compliance with Rega tonearms while still having the advantage of interchangeable stylus with original 2M range.
Thank you for the heads up on that. This is new to me. I didn't know they'd released these.
I think the red and the blue
Are highly overrated
But I've not heard any of the higher end 2M models
I owned the bronze but went back to the blue. The bronze was good, but the improvement did not justify the price. I have never found the Red to be a great performer. Lots of distortion and sibilance, and I could never get it to track right, especially on the inner grooves. The Blue is the sweet spot for me.
And that's what I love about all this. There's never a "one solution fits all". I truly enjoy that.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords Yeah, I would have probably stayed with the bronze, but they did some big price hikes a few years back, and unfortunately, my income didn't get the same treatment. It's a great line of cartridges, though.
Why on earth would you change the cartridge every year? They have 3-5k hours before they need changing, that’s more than 5yrs of daily 2hr average use.And even then, unless it sounds distorted you don’t need to change it.
Maybe because I'm a little crazy? It's also because I'm constantly trying new ones but I make myself wait a year.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords in that case yes, you can change every month! It just came across ( to me perhaps) that you “have” to change the cartridge every year due to it being worn out after a year.
Shibata stylus is much more detailed and very revealing. Very wide and excellent soundstage.
Equipment matters
Lots of info here. I have the Ortofon 2m blue right now. When I'm ready to replace it, I'll probably go straight to the black. Possibly the LVB version. I told my wife I wanted a nude stylus with a boron cantilever and she gave me a strange look. 😂 I don't think she understood what the hell I was talking about. Do you ever have this problem discussing audio gear with your spouse? Just kidding.
To be honest Neil - yes! She's patient with me and humors me most of the time 🤣
😂
I do need to mention here the adjustment of vertical tracking angle (or the closely related stylus rake angle). The adjustment is normally done by lowering or raising the base of the tonearm by a small amount. The more sophisticated the stylus shape the more critical this adjustment is. Shibata styli, like the ones on the 2M Black regular and LVB are particularly fussy in this regard. The Bronze (with the fine line stylus), a little less so. If this adjustment isn’t dialed in precisely, you won’t be getting nearly the performance you paid for. If your tonearm height is non-adjustable, sticking with a cartridge with an elliptical stylus will work out much better, as ellipticals a good bit less fussy in this regard than the fine line, or especially, Shibata stylus profiles.
I'm really glad you brought this up. I've been reading more and more about this and the LVB has the shibata. My Rega Moth tonearm doesn't allow for height adjustment.
I found this out when I switched mats without making an adjustment.
I've been "downsized" for a number of years now (retired) and as much as I can fantasize about getting a black, unless a money plane crashes in my back yard, I have no idea where I'd get a grand to spend on a cartridge, ESPECIALLY when such an expense would have to go straight thru the wife, and we all know there's NO valid argument you can try on a wife to justify an expenditure like that when you could really use that kind of money on something more pressing. Nope, maybe next year I scrimp and save for a replacement stylus for my Blue, but I really need a halfway decent phono stage first, so there you have it. At least I was able to land two KILLER albums this month for less than $15 each, a double album by the Pretty Reckless, and the latest effort by Tears for Fears. Ah, isn't cheap audio land grand?
I can see a bit of downsizing myself in the near future. At least as far as purchasing habits go.
I didn't know Tears for Fears were releasing new material. What did you think?
Their latest, "The Tipping Point", was released in 2022. I just now received it and haven't had a chance to listen to it but I will try and remember to let you know what I think of it. I THINK they had put out several LP's not long before this one. Good to see these "kids" from the eighties earning themselves some gray (OK, silver then) hair to go with their continuing careers...LOL!
Sorry it took so long to provide you that review for "The Tipping Point". GET IT!
Nothing to do with playing vinyl, but... I used to do software development, and in a piece of code I once found a modification made on March 26, which had only the single comment "RIP LVB".
Lol - love it!
?
I’ve had my 2m black for 5 yrs with 600 hrs under its belt ,to me the detail is heads above anything else in its range .All vinyl is washed on a OKKI NOKKI cleaner . ,when stylus needs replacing it will be a 2m black ,not the cheapest over here in England ,but you get what you pay for .😊
Hi Steve! I second you comment about the detail the 2m black achieves. 🎶
GM ☕️I’m a Koetsu fanboy…😊
GM Carmine! I should check that out :)
@@TheJoyofVinylRecordsBring your Piggy Bank
There really is no set time for a stylus change. Depends on how much you play records Once a year would be too soon for me as I’ve had my stylus for over 2 years and it still sounds great!!
I know I overdue it a bit with the annual stylus change. I'll probably have to break that habit.
@@TheJoyofVinylRecords It’s not a problem if you play a ton of records I have a Ortofan blue and I can get at least 2 years worth of play It varies with usage!!
"Going from Ortofon Bronze to Black LVB250 - worth it?"
IMO, no.
You can get a good quality LOMC cartridge for the price of an LVB250.
All Ortofon 2m are garbage, the only Ortofon that sounds decent is the Mc-3 turbo
Grado all the way.
Any particular Grado cart? I'm building a list for when I switch to MC.