For those who don't understand the Chairman of the Federal Reserve is arguably a position just as powerful as the POTUS. Being a partner in Goldman Sachs makes him an indirect owner of HBO. Benioff would be mopping floors at a McDonalds were it not for his Daddy.
Rush GM? He had years and years to finish the material. At some point you have to accept that GM, D&D, HBO, etc. are *ALL* responsible for the final mess. Let's not sugar coat Martin's own role.
McDonald's Manager: "Benioff! Why haven't you mopped up all that vomit on the floor over there?" Benioff: "Well, I kind of, forgot about the puke." McDonald's Manager: "Benioff! You're fired!"
What if the Levellers had come to power at the end of the English Civil War? What if Cromwell had taken the crown? What if Britain declared war on Russia after the Dogger Bank Incident? What if Brazil remained a monarchy? What if Scotland had gone independent?
AlternateHistoryHub Whuch proves absolutely NOTHING about skills. Many people skilled and successful in Hollywood are born from rich families. What's so different about him?? This is just more bulllshit
Can you imagine someone comes to you because they love your novels, then proceed to tell you how YOUR story should proceed. I think i'ld lose my shit honestly.
I agree with your POV, but also believe there's blame on both sides here. I think it's fair to say that D&D fairly expected GRRM to have finished Winds of Winter 7 or 8 YEARS into production on GoT. And GRRM is notorious for his sloth-like writing pace. So yes, was GRRM the more talented writer? By miles and miles. Was there an expectation of more content from GRRM that wasn't provided? Highly likely. Did D&D handle that eventuality well? Highly unlikely. Again, plenty of blame to go around, and the moral of the story is: DO NOT BEGIN A TV PRODUCTION WHEN THE SOURCE MATERIAL IS STILL IN PROGRESS!!! That's simply a recipe for disaster, which is precisely what GoT descended into during it's final season.
Jeff S but you are forgetting that the got books had enough material for more than 10 reasons as said by Martin. But they hurried. How can you blame him when he had set them up for success of they just did it right?
@@Megenos Did you read my post, Meg? I'm not blaming Martin -- I'm placing the blame squarely on BOTH parties, as is the case in 99.9% of relationships of all kinds. It takes two to tango.
@@schmiggidy so they're equally blamed you say? they skipped a considerable portion of book material and caught up with him much quicker than he expected. not to mention that they started edging him out and taking all the credit for themselves for a novel that he alone worked on for more than a decade. Martin might had stalled the books on purpose just to expose those clowns for the hacks that they really are; and I honestly wouldn't blame him.
To cut it short. They begged him to do the show. They relied heavily on his source material and the show became a success. They rode on that success and figured the success of the show was more their doing. So they really didnt need GR Martin input anymore. They are calling the shots. They then threw most of his material out and wanted to rush the show. Because they rushed the show, they were running out of material. So wanted GR Martin to roll out more material quicker. GR Martin feeling dejected now, loses motivation to finish the book. Asks them theres enough material already to produce more seasons. They are not happy with this. They want a short synopsis of what happens in the latter books. They rush the show eager to move onto something more lucrative. Everyone is telling them the show can continue for longer. No, they figured different. Everyone is disappointed now.
@connection lost But what was "better"? Star Wars? Star Wars is a dying franchise at this point, it was a lucrative thing to be a part of a few years back, but Kennedy made sure to piss all over it. Game of Thrones is at this point, the biggest TV show of all time. I wasn't a huge fan of it, but I know people who bleed GoT. And these selfish pricks didn't choose a replacement to keep it going, they wanted to end it as fast as possible and move on. I see TH-camrs with fan made endings who have done some exceptional work crafting the final season or the finale, hell, there is one guy (HelloFutureMe) who basically wrote the finale in a satisfying manner even when including their fuck ups. Huge waste.
Nah im not dissapointted im laughing my ass off. I was telling people since season 5 when the bullshit started happening that it was gunna end in a shit show. Then again i never liked the damn show.
One thing you missed, Andre. I have a friend who works for Martin's publisher and he told me there is a rumour they made fun of Martin in an episode. During one of the fights they had with George, George said the following to them: "You have ideas, I have ideas, he has ideas. Why should my ideas have anymore value than yours, simply because I have been doing this my whole life? Who's anyone to judge my work? This is my profession, I know what I'm doing! You have no right to an opinion." They put that speech in an episode and had a pretentious playwright say it. And that really made Martin mad. He felt it was a blatant shot at him. George then took shots at D&d in the following passage of Fire & Blood: "Over the years and centuries, as the book was copied and recopied, many changes and emendations crept into the text. The maesters who labor at the Citadel copying books are rigorously trained to reproduce the original word for word, but few mundane scribes are so disciplined. Such septons, septas, and holy sisters as copy and illuminate books for the Faith oft strike out or alter any passages they believe to be offensive, obscene, or theologically unsound. As virtually the whole of A Caution for Young Girls is obscene, it was not like to have been transcribed by either maesters or septons. Given the number of copies known to exist (hundreds, though as many more were burned by Baelor the Blessed), the scribes responsible were most likely septons expelled from the Faith for drunkenness, theft, or fornication, failed students who left the Citadel without a chain, hired quills from the Free Cities, or mummers (the worst of all). Lacking the rigor of maesters, such scribes oft feel free to “improve” on the texts they are copying. (Mummers in particular are prone to this.)" "In the case of A Caution for Young Girls, such “improvements” largely consisted of adding ever more episodes of depravity and changing the existing episodes to make them even more disturbing and lascivious. As alteration followed alteration over the years, it became ever more difficult to ascertain which was the original text, to the extent that even maesters at the Citadel cannot agree as to the title of the book, as has been noted. "
Is that not from an episode, where Arya Stark is in training with the many faced god ( or whatever he is ), where she is tasked with the assignment of dealing with one of the actresses from that very same acting group?
That's just sad. Every idea and decision has 2nd and 3rd order consequences that show up later. That's why you listen to GRRM, he has the experience to know what does and does not work in the long term. As we saw with season 8 D&D didn't understand this and brought the series to a dead end that I'm sure GRRM saw coming from miles away.
Ever since they purposely ruined Stannis (my favourite book character) in the show back in 2015, I've been longing for people to see what hack writers they are. Seeing videos like this and all the comments brings such joy to my heart.
Yeah. The arcs they gave the characters showed how poorly they understood some of them: Stannis was supposed to be whether he bent or broke--like iron. But sure, let's have him kill his daughter. Cersei was suppose to be a warning that the desire and drive for power didn't necessarily come with a skill for wielding it--and she slowly found herself resembling the men she hated: Robert and Tyrion. Not this "Burn Queen, BURN!" bullshit. Let's also not forget how they mangled the Dorne arc and Wyman Manderly's subplot. Jesus...
To quote a comment on the Angry Joe Show D&D: Hey we just finished Game of Thrones and are ready to start on Star Wars! SW: You don't want to work on Star Wars. D&D: We don't want to work on Star Wars. SW: You want to go home and rethink your lives. D&D: We want to go home and rethink our lives.
D&D: We use the d20 system SW: Ooo, can we use that? D&D: Only if we get your license. SW: Cool (several years pass) SW: Okay, we're done with d20, and there's no way we're doing 4th edition. We're moving on to Fantasy Flight. D&D: Wait, you can't go! We hear you're making more movies! SW: Okaysobyyyyyyyyeeeeeee... D&D: So alone now... might as well make a 5th edition....
Sorry, Angry Joe has lost all credibility in my eyes with his idiotic defense of the "woke" culture in current video games and movies. He has become an SJW apologist turd.
@@webbygaming1583 He's not a raving misogynist and this disqualifies him how? I mean half the stuff said about Anita Sarkeesian is untrue for example. She does not want the Mandalorian cancelled for example, she just said it would have been better had women been more present and vocal instead of 'in the background' for the first two episodes. She didn't say it should be cancelled, that he should be weak, or that the main character should be or has to be a woman.
That's Hollywood for you. Authors almost always get screwed. For every faithful adaptation, there are 25 that completely disrespect the source material.
@@fattiger6957 I honestly cannot believe anymore that any real writer with a backbone would let anybody in Hollywood touch their books with a ten-foot-pole, covered with a condom, and with bucks as its pubic hair. But hey, [Random Currently Hot Actress] might shake your hand, so there is that, I guess
Screwed? He got $9.7 million out of this, on top of whatever he'd already made from book sales, which surely saw a spike thanks to the popularity of the show. He is still free to write more in the series the way he wants the story to go. However, he has his money now and probably doesn't care if he finishes the novels. He doesn't have to work anymore if he doesn't want to. If he wanted them to do more seasons he should have had more material ready before allowing the show to even begin.
Where are all these /pol/tards coming from? I hope 8chan comes back soon to contain them. Anyway I was just watching about the Kentucky Goblins and that wasn't as creepy.
I know - their smug smirking self satisfied faces are sooo irritating! Every time I see one of their photos I want to punch my monitor. I’m not sure someone could look more arrogant if they tried. Disgusting looking - the both of them.
His videos may be sometimes overlyy long and simple edited but it's worth the time. He goes in deeply into details, writes for the GoT Wiki and has connection to WesterosDOTorg which work together with George R.R. Martin. I highly recommend visiting his channel.
@@thomastroster60 I agree time is an issue, but the depth and level of insight in the videos is amazing. Have been a keen viewer for about two years, since discovering the series on why the Stannis storyline failed.
He direly needs an editor, or to reign in some of his worst tendencies. Almost all his videos could be less than a quarter their length, if he didn't repeat himself, stuck to key points and avoided tangents and side/color commentary, didn't retread points made in past videos, and structure his arguments such to not need repetition.
Lessons to take away: 1. D&D are suffering from the Dunning Kruger Effect 2. Don't let your ego take control 3. Drama is for the show, not behind the scenes 4. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, unless you want to starve 5. Don't rush a writer, especially the one building the show 6. Don't rush the show, especially when there's plenty of material 7. A show like this takes collaboration 8. D&D are suffering from the Dunning Kruger Effect
They didn't understand the fantasy material in there (of a fantasy story!!!!!!) and cut it out. That's how they were able to rush it and that's when the movies went off the beaten path.
why would Martin want to produce more material for the D and D 'writers' to take credit for? I think he let them get hoisted by their own ego and left to swing in the world-wide realization of how little talent they have. Netflix should fire whomever thought hiring them was a good idea. This is a classic example of the problem with nepotism. It's not enough that these guys had a privileged upbringing and education, they get to skip over people climbing the ladder. Martin is the one with the talent, and now everyone knows it.
@@robertwright4906 that gives them the right to disrespect Martin, be arrogant and edge him out of the show and still want him to write more books for them to adapt?
Netflix seems to have money to burn these days. Lets them burn more money so we can see D n D fail again, or not who knows maybe they've learned a thing or two.
"Why did you stop writing the books, George?" "I was waiting for the TV show to collapse so years later I could drop the _real_ ending to massive fanfare."
I think Midnight's Edge is being Charitable with Benioff and Weiss's ability to execute their own story. The failings they endured in seasons 6-8 (gradual to complete) were WITH training wheels on. Without, they stumble and crash into the nearest tree.
@@josephcamhi5676 Not just Dorne, but the northern plot s well: In the novels, the Bolton hold over the north isn't just precarious, everyone but the Freys are actively conspiring to overthrow them, to the point that Roose Bolton has to expel their armies out into a massive snowstorm to keep a war from erupting inside Winterfell. It was a triumph in showing the difference between the leadership of Lannister and Stark: Tywin Lannister maintained power through fear, and the moment he died everything he worked for started falling to pieces. The Starks were loved, and after they died not only did their bannermen retain their loyalty, but were working to avenge them. That, and attempting to shove Sanas into the Jeyne Poole storyline, no matter that it didn't make sense at all, and even then just keeping the "brutal rape and escape with Theon" left a sour taste in people's mouths. It's as if they just wanted a shocking rape. Everything about Ramsay Bolton was more like a cartoon character than his book counterpart, and his book self is pretty damned cartoonish.
Lessons for future writers: 1) Never let a adaption happen unless you know your story is completed or close to it. 2) Never let unproven hacks adapt your story. 3) Make sure you have a lot of control over the process and decision making.
It happened to Lucas, it happened to Martin. When signing a deal, the one with the original idea should hold the power to decide on the story and characters. Rowling did it (I think), and all the crap that's going on there is her fault 😂
@@goranorrskog6296 The sad thing is that while this worked for the films of the seven original books, it was an absolute disaster when she stepped outside of that original canon. There are some really interesting ideas in there that call back to it (the reason Dumbledore dragged his feet over fighting Grindelwald, for example), but there's so much social-justice garbage and sledgehammer-subtle bullshit shoved into the mix that it's difficult to believe we're seeing the product of the same author.
@@Ensign_Cthulhu That's what happens when you realize some of your favourite writers aren't really as talented as they're given credit for. Rowling is a good example of someone who wrote a generic, uninteresting story with a bunch of goofy names and because people have no imagination anymore they went insane for it. Now when they write crap outside of that canon you can see they were just another one-trick pony.
If they'd already pissed him off in season 5 or 6 he may have done just that. Or at least "tested out" an idea for the ending on the TV show to see how the public receives it, but if it flops, who cares? He still got paid.
I think it’s likely he left out a lot. If you watch his body language in interviews and how he reacts when he says he told them his ending, he seems to hesitate a little. Especially after season 8 finale aired, I think GRRM especially feels the two stories are nothing alike. He hadn’t read the scripts before they aired so he had no clue what they would do, just assumed.
@Homer Simpson what ??? I never had a problem with the books , I actually loved reading them & ended up buying a dance of dragon on audible simply because I didnt want to read the book again but to listen to it so now I have it twice , I even remember thinking wow that great when I finished it
Good tip about the Dragon Demands, he was doing rant videos about D&D being drunken fratboy hacks like 4 years ago and nobody really paid attention to his stuff.
Or they simply turned off by his mentally unhigned 2 Hours Rants and ad-hominem speculations. Regardless, I think he was the most informative GOT youtuber, when you ignored his psycholigical evaluations.
@Account for Comment All of the "speculation" has been proven correct, so that's kind of a moot point. How emotionally invested an individual might be in the quality of the adaptation obviously varies, but the fact remains that as early as Talisa being introduced, there was always a vocal minority of people on forums or wherever saying D&D clearly didn't know what they were doing, were making obvious writing mistakes, were changing characters and plot lines too drastically, didn't seem to understand some of the character arcs, seemed like amateurs, etc.
@@escalatingbarbarism5096 You meant that he had access to Beniof's phychiatric theraphy sessions. Point is it is beyond my moral limit to label someone I don't know with several mental disorders. Furthermore, spreading that accusationd of him for hours, months and years. He is right about the actor's faces, might be right about brown woman, and more things than most. But his ranting style and those accusations turned people off his channel. Which is why he was unknown despite how good his info is.
I remember a couple of years ago The Guardian came out with a really bad article about the decline of GOT (it wasn't by their regular reviewer Sarah Hughes who's pretty good). I remember thinking how much better it could have been if only the author had known about The Dragon Demands.
Just a guess but HBO made the calculation that the show was about to get exponentially more expensive with increases in actors salaries, sets, etc. The bean counters probably convinced them that they would make tons off of Blu Ray sales and other ancillaries. Of course Season 8 was so bad it killed off a good percentage of those expectations.
They called the shots, not Martin. And HBO trusted them, not Martin. The media repeatedly said that DnD were 'brilliant' rather than giving credit to Martin, and the heads of HBO read said media.
Because David Benioff is lucky that his daddy is personal friends with HBO's ex's CEO and producers. If it weren't for that D&D would had been sacked after the pilot episode of GoT(not the one that was released to the public but another that is in HBO's archives) back in 2010. There are a few videos from the channel called The Dragon Demands. He has covered the script for the unreleased pilot episode from GoT and I tell you it was so horrible that one of the mistakes was that there is no scene that would imply or say that Jamie and Cercei are brother and sister.
Martin wanted 3-4 seasons for his slogfest AFfC and ADwD, as that 4 years might enable him to 'catch up'. I see lots of GRRM worship around here, but as someone who started reading the series in '98, the fat fucker majorly dropped the ball after '01.
Yup I figured Martin chose not to release Winds of Winter out of spite.... no way was he going to let those hacks disrespect him and take credit for his genius... Can't wait for Weiss and Benioff to crash and burn!
@james paul "Simpler", yeah right. What would a Communist sympathizer/"objector" (Martin) know about life that a Great War survivor (Tolkien) wouldn't?
@@sojoNIN I love Tolkien, but I do prefer game of thrones world. Gandalf and the wizards being Angel's or higher beings just seems of to me. That's why I loved lotr so much, because they played down that aspect. The game of thrones lore just sits better with me.
Imagine scoring the rights for the TV show of the decade, and then you crapped it out that much your legacy is people calling you "Dumb and Dumber" for eternity 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Tbh the plot they thought of was bad yeah, but not that bad that you couldn't make something better out it, if had they just covered it up with a more or less plausible scenario how it all comes together. but how it was done in the end - you couldn't make it worse. That is the fact, that they are clueless and reason why there is such backlash. Had they just wrote a bad plot but showed it in a nice and plausible way people - then people had not noticed it as much as they did.
Martin has been extremely understanding of them and their creative decisions since the first season (he was a former screenwriter himself, afterall). But D&D grew arrogant and began to disregard him and his warnings as time passed. Which explains why Martin, it seemed, was distancing himself away from the show from Season 5 and onwards.
Criticism where criticism is due, but if you see this dude's videos and comments, his obsession with D&D is actually disturbing, regardless of what you think about their writing.
Well, look at the final two season's travel and logistics... essentially teleportation and the like, Marathon Gendry and the raven, etc... Mind you, the most major event in the series history (The Red Wedding) is ALL ABOUT TRAVEL AND LOGISTICS! Travel was hard, they NEEDED THAT BRIDGE, and damn if it wasn't the most thrilling shit ever. To "Cersei would have had to have been pregnant for at least two years" and the Army of the Dead would have surrounded Jon Snow and company for something like four days for any kind of logical travel to have taken place. (Eastwatch to Dragonstone scales out at something like 2,200 miles as the crow flies...) And sure, I can totally see King Bran, if he's a pawn/leader of the Children of the Forest getting their revenge. Look at all the things that he didn't tell anyone that a moral person would have... Jon learning his heritage causes nothing but trouble, he doesn't warn Dany about Euron's fleet so Rhaegal and Missandei both get whacked, which turns Dany and Grey Worm both completely crazy, and then obviously DanyHitler. He can see the future! He doesn't tell anyone or try to change anything? I mean, it makes sense if he's evil... I definitely could have written a far better ending than D&D, and I have absolutely no doubt. It really wasn't that hard to get out from Jon Snow's death if you know he is coming back... that's why everyone knows it is so bad. :D
Now that Martin has seen the fan reaction to all of the character endings, I suspect he’s going to change the entire ending just to make D&D look even dumber than they already look.
El Padre con Verga Larga well yes, if you spend an entire book leading up to it then it makes sense and I can see how power can corrupt. But I. The confines of 6 episode season, they should have just let her and Jon have it. But D&D are famous for F’ing up endings.
He certainly has the opportunity to, and everything he writes is golden. But the thing is, I don’t think D&D even remotely gave us GRRMs ending. When GRRM said it would be the same, that was based on assumption. He had not read the scripts and watched the show at the same time we did. He had no clue how they would truly end it, and after it ended GRRM will not speak about the ending. He shuts down any conversation that leads to that. That makes me think they completely did a 180 and made up stuff for their ending, and he was upset because he had told people already they would end the same. And now people will think that terrible ending was from his mind, when in reality it’s all D&D, but they’re going to pin it on GRRM because of the backlash. Couple of hacks they are.
@El Padre con Verga Larga No, a Targaryen going mad is cliche to me. I would rather see another character from a different family going mad, like one of the Starks for example.
I saw some short clips from GoT table reads and just from looking at the two guys for moments, they immediately triggered my asshole radar. The way they looked at the actors, their body language, the vibe they gave off. It all reeked of insecure impostors who know on some level that they don't deserve the position of power they are in, are afraid of being asked questions they can't answer and over-compensate by radiating shallow arrogance and fake Alpha posturing. I have worked with people like that and recognize it.
GRRM to Dumb and Dumber: "you're blessed with the rights to an epic saga that no one else possesses, you're blessed to belong to one of the most powerful TV networks, one that is willing to give you a blank check to do it right, and you're still blessed with a loyal fanbase, and what have you done with these blessings, huh? you made the last 3 seasons nothing more than glorified but poorly written fanfic. you could have established an epic story that would be praised for a thousand years. but you collapsed MY saga, MY fantasy, into nothing."
Lucas and Martin should have never relinquished so much creative direction over their legends. I hope nobody else makes the same mistake for the almighty dollar.
@@mikewazzupski If you haven't played Dungeons and Dragons with your friends you haven't really lived :P Seriously though, it's a fantasy tabletop role-playing game where the only limit to fun and good storytelling is your imagination... That and maybe a bad dungeon master.
I personally realized the show was going to shit with season 5 with how they ruined the Arya/Faceless Men storyline. I knew they were going to screw it up the moment that man put on Jaqen H'ghar's face.
@@riccardoalcaro8483 The end of S6 was the cherry on top of the shit sundae, but the show managed to lose all the charm and mystery of the entire storyline. The entire thing was boring, illogical and made the Faceless Men seem like a joke. Of all the mistakes the show made, this is the one that hurts me the most. I pray to the old gods and the new the books don't finish the story arc in anyway similar to the show.
@@riccardoalcaro8483 Season 5 was pretty shitty all around until the last couple of episodes, which were good enough to make most people forget how bad the previous seven episodes were.
@@buckaroobanzai7063 i feel you man... For me the Dorne plot was the worst, horrible from start to finish. But let's be real they basically slowly butchered every storyline one by one starting with season 4, i don't know why it took until season 8 for people to turn.
Faceless Men is one of the most intriguing part of the books and they had them have rubber mask like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible. All mysticism gone.
That's what I'd do if I was him and these stooges told me they deserve to have a say in how my story goes. You think you're tough shit? You're on your own now, good luck. And this is the story of how they fucked up Game of Thrones and ended up ruining their own rep as writers. Maybe
......this was two idiots. Not Hollywood elitism. Even the studio wanted a more fleshed out story. Just because you have something to say doesn't mean it's smart
@@Niiiiith you're assuming an entire workforces attitude based on propaganda, I find that disparaging. Sometimes you don't have to have a good argument to point out a bad one ...
@@PrinceIsot you need to learn the term “elite” if you think a general workforce are the elite. You are a fool. This is not an insult, just another statement of fact.
They guessed Jon Snow's heritage but had no idea what the story was about? I don't buy this. They spent a day searching through fan theories and lucky guessed that's it.
After reading the books, you realise that most of the best dialogue came straight out of them, word for word in a lot of cases. And it is this brilliant dialogue that helped capture audiences. In later seasons, with limited source material you can tell how much worse it had become, which does say a lot about D&Ds literary capacity.
George's biggest mistake is not cutting ties fully following this dispute and just collect the cheques silently. He liked the fame so much he still to this day defends the show, even season 8. If he just stopped showing up at the events and gave no positive comment about the show, things would have been different. I mean on his blog he even attacked the fans who criticize the last season.
Thanks for this, it makes me forgive GRRM a bit and not be so angry with him for going on 9 years now to publish the WoW. D&D are unforgivable to me for ripping the characters to shreds and making them behave in nonsensical ways. But I can empathize with George; being disrespected and angry with what some hacks did with your creation is understandably a creativity/ productivity killer.
As someone working on the field of complex technologies and development i wholeheartedly agree that putting RR Martin under duress could have caused further delays. You cannot force the development of complex narratives or technologies. And when put under unnecessary pressures, it actually delays progress even further. Because it demotivates and blinds the minds eye toward all possibilities and potential resolutions of complex problems.
What I'm most pissed about is that when D&D ran out of materials, instead of drawing from other writer's ideas, they went straight to what they know best, which was Hollywood scriptwriting. EVERYONE knows that Hollywood fucks up great stories by jumping too fast in materials that require kneading out or cutting out important materials that bring stories full circle. The very second they realized that the show needed more time to draw out the materials, they should've passed it off to someone who had the time to carry the show on. Instead, they took the selfish route and ended the show abrubtly so that they can say they were there from start to finish, no matter the cost.
@@MoreAwsomeMetal That's what they were before they reached power, wealth and glory. They achieved it despite being hacks, frauds, pervs, crooks etc., because of the ethnic networking and ethnic nepotism that the chosen people engage in. There are talented ones, as there are talented people in every group, but one can only imagine how much better Hollywood movies/shows would be if it wasn't for this domination by one depraved ethnic group.
@John Benko it's 4chan. Their influence is spreading, don't be surprised to see even larger upticks of anti-semitism in coming years. People are feeling increasingly disenfranchised in society, and like in Nazi Germany, they're starting to point the finger for all their problems at "DA JOOS!"
I'm sure that they would have been great with Star Wars. There's countless extended universe novels that they could have adapted. ...Wait... God damn it...
They are hacks. The ending of the show is the fault of two parties - one is GRRM who sold the rights to a book series he had not finished, and then when the show as being made he spent more time producing scripts for the show than working on his actual book series and even when he was writing he chose to write other books instead. So the point where they ran out of books is purely GRRM's fault. Then you have the hacks D&D who are not accomplished writers in their own right, you can tell this by season 1 alone. Once they'd finished filming season 1 HBO came back and said you're over an hour short on the run time we agreed by contract, which is why season 1 feels the most professional because GRRM wrote extra scenes to be slotted into various episodes to pad the run time (the scenes with cersei and robert being a prime example of these extra scenes). D&D know nothing about writing complex characters or making a complex tv show, so the various departments of the tv show essentially had to self manage which made them all very successful at doing their own elements of the show with D&D basically 'supervising' but lacking anything but the most shallow of input. The show was a hit because GRRM's source material is amazing and because the technical team in Northern Ireland are amazingly talented, the show's success was in spite of D&D not because of it. The final season is a perfect example of this, everything that's not the writing is executed to jaw stropping standards of polish - the acting, the sets, the costumes, the cgi, all are amazing to see and then theres the writing. which is god awful.
No. If D&D hadn't made drastic cuts from the source material they'd still have plenty of material to go with before the next book came out. This is solely their fault. HBO gave them all the freedom they wanted and THEY chose to go with just 8 seasons and majorly butcher many character arcs just so they could get to star wars.
They were thinking that they would use GOT as a steppingstone to bigger and better things and they end up with nothing. They should have focused on the job at hand
People like to claim they used George's outline for the ending, I refuse to believe it. If some of this crap was in an outline, if I were George I would alter it. That way, nothing remotely feels like the show and leave the egg on d&d's faces.
They come across as a homosexual couple to me, with Benioff being the dominant one, lol! They probably spend their time together in leather fetish gear, with Weiss chained to a dungeon wall and Benioff spanking him.
@@jamiebraswell5520 I get the same vibe. I wouldn't go so far as to divine their private lives from that, but certainly the photos of them together that are shown here would, in isolation, lead me to believe they were a couple.
Since Kathleen Kennedy, Ruin Johnson, and Jar Jar Abrams have eviscerated StarWars, having D&D on board would have put the final stake through it's heart. Which might have been a mercy and maybe allowed it to rise from the ashes like a Phoenix. Now it will probably just wither away until everyone just wants to forget about it.
I hated the way they completely ruined the Dorne storyline. They ignored the complex plotting of the books and made the Sand Snakes a joke. The "you need the bad pussy" line is the single worst piece of dialogue in the whole series.
Martin is never going to finish the Game of Thrones. Read the first the three books, which are some of the best fantasy since Tolkien, and write your own ending in your head. You'll be happier than watching the TV show or waiting for Martin.
@@TheEdM3 The first half of A Feast for Crows is pretty good. I heard second hand that it was written right on the heels of a Storm of Swords. But 'grinding its gears' is a good description of the second half. It grinds right to a halt, in terms of pacing and narrative momentum. And book 5 was worse.
@@MarkAndrewEdwards Man, it's curious to hear that Martin might've rushed through one of those books (even if only through half of it). What happened in the interim? Mainstream fame and big $$$? With that said, I'd gotten that impression from the first half already.
@@TheEdM3 Based on interviews and what he's told other writers informally, he originally intended there to be a 5 year time skip between books 3 and 4. That would give some characters time to grow up and give Dani time to rule Mereen 'off camera'. The first half of the Feast for Crows was the 'epiloge' of sorts from Storm of Swords. However, Martin decided that he needed to follow the lives of his characters more lineally, so he re-wrote the second half of Feast for Crows without the timeskip. And re-wrote. And re-wrote. Because Martin doesn't do a lot of outlining and planning. He's a 'exploratory' writer, writing by the seat of his pants, at least for the first draft or two. That means he does a LOT of re-writing. It's why he doesn't put out a lot of content. And it's another reason why I don't think he'll finish the books. He now has 'seen' the ending and he's lost is enthusiasm for the project. Hence all the side work and prequels, etc. I don't think he cares about the core store with Jon, Dani, Tyrion, etc.
Given Martin's own position when it comes to personal connections and professional cliques (aka, he's one of the gate-keepers making sure that only the right sort of people are allowed to win a Hugo Award) I find it hilarious to think that his greatest work may have just been ruined by a pair of hacks who's only qualifications were having the proper personal and professional connections....
Why didn't they just get Peter Jackson. The guy tried stretching the Hobbit into 3 movies so he clearly wanted to make an epic fantasy tale. He just didn't have enough material. Wouldn't have been a problem with ASOIAF.
Damn straight Star Wars lucked out. I was elated when I saw D&D were out with regard to Star Wars. They have shown to me that they can't write for shit. I don't want them involved with anything I'm a fan of moving forward.
The entire account here sounds plausible. The only detail I question is pressure by D&D slowing Martin's writing process. The spacing on the first three books was one every two years 1996-'98-2000. The fourth book took another five years (2005), the fifth book took a further six years (2011). And no new core series books in the EIGHT years since 2011. Martin has written himself into a corner and doesn't know how to get out, so he isn't.
Watching this commentary brings back all the sadness & disappointment of how GoT ended. Feel especially sorry for the extremely talented cast & crew who were forced to do the rushed job of carrying out the piss-poor, rushed script put out by D&D's bad writing. I imagine it's exactly how Mark Hamill must have felt while filming The Last Jedi for Rian Johnson.
S1 Tyrion: "Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor and it can never be used to harm you." S8 Tyrion: "BrAn ThE bRoKeN!"
So Benioff's dad was chairman of the NY. Federal Reserve Bank AND a boardmember of Goldman Sachs! Wel that fucking explains how those pricks got the deal without the actual credentials and a solid vision for the show. David's dad owned the fucking store. This also explains why hardly anyone of notice in Hollywood critizes these bozo's. There is so much power behind David, it would be career suicide to critique them.
5:40 Wait, they impressed GRRM by guessing Jon Snow's true parentage, literally the most obvious "mystery" in the entire fucking series. Good god, that explains so much...
I wouldn't be surprised if George RR Martin actually has all his books finished, but he withheld them just to not give B&W the source material they actually needed.
They aren't finished he has admitted that several of times SINCE the show ended. The last book is estimated to being released in 2029 now by whoever publishes his books. We won't know the ending to this story any time soon, he has had ca. 26 years to finish this series and he's still not anywhere near being done.
As a writer myself I would've left series 8 open ended with certain story arc's closed but others left open. Paying respect in some way to Martin's unfinished works.
Don't act like Martin is completely absolved here. He jumped on the money bandwagon just like D&D did without having his story finished. Knowing how long he takes to write, and knowing TV shows have a budget and time obligations to meet. He should have said it's an interesting project but wait until the literature is done before trying to adapt it. Did he expect to shows actors to stay under contract to film until he got around 5-10-15 years down the line to say here I'm finished. Sorry it doesn't work that way.
A little off topic but how Martin felt about a single movie couldn't tell the story right but an R rated series could is exactly how I felt/feel about The Dark Tower and really hope a series is made on it. I've heard that there are rumors and am really hoping they're true
They dropped the ball at the end of season 4 and it snowballed from there, although I think many of their decisions regarding Danaerys fundamentally failed to understand what Martin was saying about her in the books. Still, the moment I found out they cut out Lady Stoneheart, I began to distrust them. But looking back on it, they really mucked this up much earlier. Dany is the quintessential mama bear who will burn the world to a pile of ashen rubble for her cubs. Instead of trying to cultivate her utter ruthlessness as a natural outgrowth of her maternal instinct, they tried to develop it as a secondary feature. So instead of seeing her attend to Doreah on her deathbed, we see her interring Doreah and Xaro alive in a vault--which is fine, as it still demonstrates that she can be horrible to those who threaten the bond with her dragons, but it does so at the expense of showing us that her maternal instinct extends beyond them. Doreah helped her take power, and showing Dany personally nursing her as she lay dying could have really enamored us with a sense of just how far she's willing to go for those she loves. But at the end of the day, an acceptable digression. They could have done this just as effectively in Season 5 or 6, had they been faithful to the story of the Pale Mare. That scene where she goes down to wash the poor was probably one of the best ways Martin had of demonstrating her love for her subjects and her madness all at once. I mean, here she is in a city afflicted by a disease that makes people shit themselves to death, and she's going in to help wash the dying, disease-afflicted poor because they are her children. It got worse when they made Missandei an older woman. This was another chance to show us a budding relationship between a surrogate daughter and Dany, almost like the child she never had. We lost chapters of them sleeping in the same bed, of Dany seeing elements of herself in the psyche of this wretchedly abused but remarkably clever little slave. Imagine what she'd do if Missandei had been barely older than Season 1 Sansa when Cersei had her head lopped off? Killing off one of the dragons on arbitrary grounds was yet another error, to say nothing of the way they butchered Euron and omitted Victarion. But even so, they could have had her and Jon on dragonback when the bells rang, and then just as she's telling the people of King's Landing to drop their weapons, THUNK! Rhogon catches a lethal scorpion bolt, and the masses roar and whoop, realizing that dragons can be killed. Maybe the redcloaks get bold and try to rush Dany while Euron barks orders and his crew loads a second bolt? You could have set it up in such a way that the audience is cheering for Dany as she's burning children alive, and only after the thrill of a little collective vengeance is gone and you're left staring at the bodies of the innocent do you realize that this was horrifying, and you cheered it on. Even having her go straight for the red keep, roasting everything in her path, could have been a breathtaking atrocity if Cersei had seized the moment to let many of the cheering peasants inside. Then it really would be the case that Cersei tried to use the common people as a shield. There were many, many more places where D&D went wrong.
These two guys seem to have got high on the smell of their own bodily wastes and believed they were a true gift to the plebs through their 'inspired' choices and writing.
Good analysis. D&D are total hacks confident in their own superiority. They are victims of their own hype just like Abrams and Johnson, tragically for both franchises.
One can argue that Martin had dawdled on Winds of Winter far too long w/o pressure from the writers. In fact, I'd suggest that part of the reason Martin was not in a hurry to expedite the series is that in those early seasons, he was enjoying not having to meet deadlines to collect a paycheck. Martin has been avoiding progressing the ASoIaF plotline for over a decade now. That's not all on Benioff and Weis. This is not to exonerate them for the unmitigated disaster of Season 8. Rather, it's to say that this was a foreseeable debacle to anyone who was a fan of the books, and dared to have the very moderate expectation that the author make progress on the series without relying on a TV series for bank.
For those who don't understand the Chairman of the Federal Reserve is arguably a position just as powerful as the POTUS. Being a partner in Goldman Sachs makes him an indirect owner of HBO. Benioff would be mopping floors at a McDonalds were it not for his Daddy.
Rush GM? He had years and years to finish the material. At some point you have to accept that GM, D&D, HBO, etc. are *ALL* responsible for the final mess. Let's not sugar coat Martin's own role.
He's just a puppet, nothing more.
I wish I had a daddy.
McDonald's Manager: "Benioff! Why haven't you mopped up all that vomit on the floor over there?"
Benioff: "Well, I kind of, forgot about the puke."
McDonald's Manager: "Benioff! You're fired!"
Or getting his right hand chopped off...
So basically one of them is a rich kid who was able to get into the industry because of his dad
Whu wha you can't post in here like a regular person! All my favourite channels are mixing!! WORLDS ARE COLLIDING!! 1!!!
What if the Levellers had come to power at the end of the English Civil War?
What if Cromwell had taken the crown?
What if Britain declared war on Russia after the Dogger Bank Incident?
What if Brazil remained a monarchy?
What if Scotland had gone independent?
What if Vince Gilligan were the showrunner of Game of Thrones?
What if I uploaded on 2018 but not in 2019?
AlternateHistoryHub Whuch proves absolutely NOTHING about skills. Many people skilled and successful in Hollywood are born from rich families. What's so different about him?? This is just more bulllshit
Benoif and Weiss' career demise is my favorite bit of George R. R. Martin's writing.
People... this is the best comment here. ^
Yet another great reveal.
They got 200millions from Netflix.
Indeed
@@TheFourthWinchester lol No Netflix dump those 2 soon enough it already started
A dance with maggots
Imagine being so full of yourself that you think you're the star writer WHILE demanding more material from the actual writer.
Can you imagine someone comes to you because they love your novels, then proceed to tell you how YOUR story should proceed. I think i'ld lose my shit honestly.
I agree with your POV, but also believe there's blame on both sides here. I think it's fair to say that D&D fairly expected GRRM to have finished Winds of Winter 7 or 8 YEARS into production on GoT. And GRRM is notorious for his sloth-like writing pace. So yes, was GRRM the more talented writer? By miles and miles. Was there an expectation of more content from GRRM that wasn't provided? Highly likely. Did D&D handle that eventuality well? Highly unlikely.
Again, plenty of blame to go around, and the moral of the story is: DO NOT BEGIN A TV PRODUCTION WHEN THE SOURCE MATERIAL IS STILL IN PROGRESS!!! That's simply a recipe for disaster, which is precisely what GoT descended into during it's final season.
Jeff S but you are forgetting that the got books had enough material for more than 10 reasons as said by Martin. But they hurried. How can you blame him when he had set them up for success of they just did it right?
@@Megenos Did you read my post, Meg? I'm not blaming Martin -- I'm placing the blame squarely on BOTH parties, as is the case in 99.9% of relationships of all kinds. It takes two to tango.
@@schmiggidy so they're equally blamed you say? they skipped a considerable portion of book material and caught up with him much quicker than he expected. not to mention that they started edging him out and taking all the credit for themselves for a novel that he alone worked on for more than a decade. Martin might had stalled the books on purpose just to expose those clowns for the hacks that they really are; and I honestly wouldn't blame him.
To cut it short.
They begged him to do the show.
They relied heavily on his source material and the show became a success.
They rode on that success and figured the success of the show was more their doing. So they really didnt need GR Martin input anymore. They are calling the shots.
They then threw most of his material out and wanted to rush the show.
Because they rushed the show, they were running out of material. So wanted GR Martin to roll out more material quicker.
GR Martin feeling dejected now, loses motivation to finish the book. Asks them theres enough material already to produce more seasons.
They are not happy with this. They want a short synopsis of what happens in the latter books.
They rush the show eager to move onto something more lucrative. Everyone is telling them the show can continue for longer.
No, they figured different.
Everyone is disappointed now.
The best summary I've seen of this saga.
@connection lost But what was "better"? Star Wars? Star Wars is a dying franchise at this point, it was a lucrative thing to be a part of a few years back, but Kennedy made sure to piss all over it. Game of Thrones is at this point, the biggest TV show of all time. I wasn't a huge fan of it, but I know people who bleed GoT. And these selfish pricks didn't choose a replacement to keep it going, they wanted to end it as fast as possible and move on. I see TH-camrs with fan made endings who have done some exceptional work crafting the final season or the finale, hell, there is one guy (HelloFutureMe) who basically wrote the finale in a satisfying manner even when including their fuck ups. Huge waste.
connection lost It’s genetic to an extent.
Nah im not dissapointted im laughing my ass off. I was telling people since season 5 when the bullshit started happening that it was gunna end in a shit show. Then again i never liked the damn show.
never been into got, but i like to stay in the know. sucks for got fans, honestly
One thing you missed, Andre. I have a friend who works for Martin's publisher and he told me there is a rumour they made fun of Martin in an episode. During one of the fights they had with George, George said the following to them: "You have ideas, I have ideas, he has ideas. Why should my ideas have anymore value than yours, simply because I have been doing this my whole life? Who's anyone to judge my work? This is my profession, I know what I'm doing! You have no right to an opinion."
They put that speech in an episode and had a pretentious playwright say it. And that really made Martin mad. He felt it was a blatant shot at him. George then took shots at D&d in the following passage of Fire & Blood:
"Over the years and centuries, as the book was copied and recopied,
many changes and emendations crept into the text. The maesters who
labor at the Citadel copying books are rigorously trained to reproduce
the original word for word, but few mundane scribes are so disciplined.
Such septons, septas, and holy sisters as copy and illuminate books for the Faith oft strike out or alter any passages they believe to be offensive, obscene, or theologically unsound. As virtually the whole of
A Caution for Young Girls is obscene, it was not like to have been transcribed by either maesters or septons. Given the number of copies
known to exist (hundreds, though as many more were burned by
Baelor the Blessed), the scribes responsible were most likely septons
expelled from the Faith for drunkenness, theft, or fornication, failed
students who left the Citadel without a chain, hired quills from the
Free Cities, or mummers (the worst of all). Lacking the rigor of maesters, such scribes oft feel free to “improve” on the texts they are
copying. (Mummers in particular are prone to this.)"
"In the case of A Caution for Young Girls, such “improvements”
largely consisted of adding ever more episodes of depravity and
changing the existing episodes to make them even more disturbing and
lascivious. As alteration followed alteration over the years, it became
ever more difficult to ascertain which was the original text, to the
extent that even maesters at the Citadel cannot agree as to the title of
the book, as has been noted. "
Is that not from an episode, where Arya Stark is in training with the many faced god ( or whatever he is ),
where she is tasked with the assignment of dealing with one of the actresses from that very same acting group?
Do you have a link to that scene?
@@faleru th-cam.com/video/yzIUAHXq_U8/w-d-xo.html
OK, if I was Martin, I would have peaced out right then and there.
That's just sad. Every idea and decision has 2nd and 3rd order consequences that show up later. That's why you listen to GRRM, he has the experience to know what does and does not work in the long term. As we saw with season 8 D&D didn't understand this and brought the series to a dead end that I'm sure GRRM saw coming from miles away.
Star Wars didn't luck out...it simply makes no difference.
What is dead can never die.
Star Wars is a zombie now.
what is dead *may* never die!
D&D aren't the only frauds, apparently.
@@shooshooshooshooshooter Just adaptation...😁
Wouldn't wanna plagiarize...
Clovis Miranda 😂 we can’t be having that
No matter how bad SW is now, D&D would somehow found a way to make it even worse. Don't underestimate their incompetence.
Ever since they purposely ruined Stannis (my favourite book character) in the show back in 2015, I've been longing for people to see what hack writers they are. Seeing videos like this and all the comments brings such joy to my heart.
STANNIS BARATHEON, THE ONE TRUE KING 😭
KNEE BENDING INTENSIFIES
I gave up when that happened. Ever since I read the third book, I've came to love the Stannis and Davros characters.
Yeah. The arcs they gave the characters showed how poorly they understood some of them:
Stannis was supposed to be whether he bent or broke--like iron. But sure, let's have him kill his daughter.
Cersei was suppose to be a warning that the desire and drive for power didn't necessarily come with a skill for wielding it--and she slowly found herself resembling the men she hated: Robert and Tyrion. Not this "Burn Queen, BURN!" bullshit.
Let's also not forget how they mangled the Dorne arc and Wyman Manderly's subplot. Jesus...
@Frank Castle See? Either of our takes would have been better than Stannis "Burn My Daughter for Crap I Don't Even Buy Into" the Mannis.
Was that when he knowingly and intentionally killed Renly instead of being tricket into it by Mel? I thought that was earlier.
D & D:
“Oh, we see you already royally screwed up Star Wars. Then nothing for us to do, here”
Actual D & D:
"Roll for initiative."
D&D to Martin: “We know better than you!”
Also D&D to Martin: “Give us more material to adapt!!”
Okay......
D&D to Martin: "We know you used our system as a campaign for your stories. We want our cut."
To quote a comment on the Angry Joe Show
D&D: Hey we just finished Game of Thrones and are ready to start on Star Wars!
SW: You don't want to work on Star Wars.
D&D: We don't want to work on Star Wars.
SW: You want to go home and rethink your lives.
D&D: We want to go home and rethink our lives.
D&D: We use the d20 system
SW: Ooo, can we use that?
D&D: Only if we get your license.
SW: Cool
(several years pass)
SW: Okay, we're done with d20, and there's no way we're doing 4th edition. We're moving on to Fantasy Flight.
D&D: Wait, you can't go! We hear you're making more movies!
SW: Okaysobyyyyyyyyeeeeeee...
D&D: So alone now... might as well make a 5th edition....
Sorry, Angry Joe has lost all credibility in my eyes with his idiotic defense of the "woke" culture in current video games and movies. He has become an SJW apologist turd.
@Keepin it Real To each their own. Angry Joe didn't like GoT season 2. To each their own.
@@webbygaming1583 He's not a raving misogynist and this disqualifies him how? I mean half the stuff said about Anita Sarkeesian is untrue for example. She does not want the Mandalorian cancelled for example, she just said it would have been better had women been more present and vocal instead of 'in the background' for the first two episodes. She didn't say it should be cancelled, that he should be weak, or that the main character should be or has to be a woman.
"George, ye got screwed, and the suits in Hollywood sided with those who screwed ye? Welcome to my world, mate" - Alan Moore, 2019
That's Hollywood for you. Authors almost always get screwed. For every faithful adaptation, there are 25 that completely disrespect the source material.
and theres always the other George...as in SW.
@@fattiger6957 I honestly cannot believe anymore that any real writer with a backbone would let anybody in Hollywood touch their books with a ten-foot-pole, covered with a condom, and with bucks as its pubic hair. But hey, [Random Currently Hot Actress] might shake your hand, so there is that, I guess
Fat Tiger Authors usually do get screwed, but Martin isn’t one of them. Once he got paid he became a lazy dilitante.
Screwed? He got $9.7 million out of this, on top of whatever he'd already made from book sales, which surely saw a spike thanks to the popularity of the show. He is still free to write more in the series the way he wants the story to go. However, he has his money now and probably doesn't care if he finishes the novels. He doesn't have to work anymore if he doesn't want to. If he wanted them to do more seasons he should have had more material ready before allowing the show to even begin.
Stop showing me pictures of them. It's disturbing.
I totally agree
Where are all these /pol/tards coming from? I hope 8chan comes back soon to contain them. Anyway I was just watching about the Kentucky Goblins and that wasn't as creepy.
I know - their smug smirking self satisfied faces are sooo irritating! Every time I see one of their photos I want to punch my monitor. I’m not sure someone could look more arrogant if they tried. Disgusting looking - the both of them.
Dan Howard How bout u just don't watch it dummy
@Anti-Federalist 1776 is that right , elaborate more on that pls ?
The Dragon Demands has been paying attention to this series falling apart for a long time. Glad he's finally getting the recognition that he deserves.
His videos may be sometimes overlyy long and simple edited but it's worth the time. He goes in deeply into details, writes for the GoT Wiki and has connection to WesterosDOTorg which work together with George R.R. Martin. I highly recommend visiting his channel.
Yes, and he still gives the best insights to what happens inside HBO in general.
@@thomastroster60 I agree time is an issue, but the depth and level of insight in the videos is amazing. Have been a keen viewer for about two years, since discovering the series on why the Stannis storyline failed.
He direly needs an editor, or to reign in some of his worst tendencies. Almost all his videos could be less than a quarter their length, if he didn't repeat himself, stuck to key points and avoided tangents and side/color commentary, didn't retread points made in past videos, and structure his arguments such to not need repetition.
@@eacaraxe Still,his content is very good.
Lessons to take away:
1. D&D are suffering from the Dunning Kruger Effect
2. Don't let your ego take control
3. Drama is for the show, not behind the scenes
4. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, unless you want to starve
5. Don't rush a writer, especially the one building the show
6. Don't rush the show, especially when there's plenty of material
7. A show like this takes collaboration
8. D&D are suffering from the Dunning Kruger Effect
They didn't understand the fantasy material in there (of a fantasy story!!!!!!) and cut it out. That's how they were able to rush it and that's when the movies went off the beaten path.
Lol, Don't forget, "Wait for the writer to finish writing the main plot lines of the show with his book material or script".
1. D&D creates 4th edition
8. D&D creates Stranger Things starter box
why would Martin want to produce more material for the D and D 'writers' to take credit for? I think he let them get hoisted by their own ego and left to swing in the world-wide realization of how little talent they have. Netflix should fire whomever thought hiring them was a good idea. This is a classic example of the problem with nepotism. It's not enough that these guys had a privileged upbringing and education, they get to skip over people climbing the ladder. Martin is the one with the talent, and now everyone knows it.
As always, we vote with our dollars, and should never spend money where it does not belong.
To be fair they were true visionaries in brining GOT to television and did a good job, especially with GRRMs help.
@@robertwright4906 that gives them the right to disrespect Martin, be arrogant and edge him out of the show and still want him to write more books for them to adapt?
Netflix seems to have money to burn these days. Lets them burn more money so we can see D n D fail again, or not who knows maybe they've learned a thing or two.
The Dragon Demands should feel vindicated as he's been shouting these Beniof facts for Years!
"Why did you stop writing the books, George?"
"I was waiting for the TV show to collapse so years later I could drop the _real_ ending to massive fanfare."
No kidding.
I think Midnight's Edge is being Charitable with Benioff and Weiss's ability to execute their own story. The failings they endured in seasons 6-8 (gradual to complete) were WITH training wheels on. Without, they stumble and crash into the nearest tree.
What was the problem with season 6?
@@josephcamhi5676 Dorne Plot, butchered.
@@josephcamhi5676 Not just Dorne, but the northern plot s well: In the novels, the Bolton hold over the north isn't just precarious, everyone but the Freys are actively conspiring to overthrow them, to the point that Roose Bolton has to expel their armies out into a massive snowstorm to keep a war from erupting inside Winterfell.
It was a triumph in showing the difference between the leadership of Lannister and Stark: Tywin Lannister maintained power through fear, and the moment he died everything he worked for started falling to pieces. The Starks were loved, and after they died not only did their bannermen retain their loyalty, but were working to avenge them.
That, and attempting to shove Sanas into the Jeyne Poole storyline, no matter that it didn't make sense at all, and even then just keeping the "brutal rape and escape with Theon" left a sour taste in people's mouths. It's as if they just wanted a shocking rape. Everything about Ramsay Bolton was more like a cartoon character than his book counterpart, and his book self is pretty damned cartoonish.
You meant mid S4-S8, right?
Hamakua 5 was trash
Lessons for future writers:
1) Never let a adaption happen unless you know your story is completed or close to it.
2) Never let unproven hacks adapt your story.
3) Make sure you have a lot of control over the process and decision making.
It happened to Lucas, it happened to Martin. When signing a deal, the one with the original idea should hold the power to decide on the story and characters. Rowling did it (I think), and all the crap that's going on there is her fault 😂
Actual lesson for future writers:
1) Collect 9 millions.
2) Whatever.
@@goranorrskog6296 The sad thing is that while this worked for the films of the seven original books, it was an absolute disaster when she stepped outside of that original canon. There are some really interesting ideas in there that call back to it (the reason Dumbledore dragged his feet over fighting Grindelwald, for example), but there's so much social-justice garbage and sledgehammer-subtle bullshit shoved into the mix that it's difficult to believe we're seeing the product of the same author.
@@goranorrskog6296 IKR? At least in Rowling's case, it's entirely from her own cranium that wizards once magicked away their poop.
@@Ensign_Cthulhu That's what happens when you realize some of your favourite writers aren't really as talented as they're given credit for. Rowling is a good example of someone who wrote a generic, uninteresting story with a bunch of goofy names and because people have no imagination anymore they went insane for it. Now when they write crap outside of that canon you can see they were just another one-trick pony.
I hope George RR Martin lied to the double Ds about the ending and the books will end it in a satisfying fashion.
If they'd already pissed him off in season 5 or 6 he may have done just that. Or at least "tested out" an idea for the ending on the TV show to see how the public receives it, but if it flops, who cares? He still got paid.
All the elements of a satisfying ending are there, they were just done terribly.
Travis Hammer He’s never going to finish them.
I think it’s likely he left out a lot. If you watch his body language in interviews and how he reacts when he says he told them his ending, he seems to hesitate a little. Especially after season 8 finale aired, I think GRRM especially feels the two stories are nothing alike. He hadn’t read the scripts before they aired so he had no clue what they would do, just assumed.
@Homer Simpson what ??? I never had a problem with the books , I actually loved reading them & ended up buying a dance of dragon on audible simply because I didnt want to read the book again but to listen to it so now I have it twice , I even remember thinking wow that great when I finished it
David Benioff and DB Weiss the Milli Vanilli of Game of Thrones.
Lmaoooo Damn not milli vanilli😫
Good tip about the Dragon Demands, he was doing rant videos about D&D being drunken fratboy hacks like 4 years ago and nobody really paid attention to his stuff.
Or they simply turned off by his mentally unhigned 2 Hours Rants and ad-hominem speculations. Regardless, I think he was the most informative GOT youtuber, when you ignored his psycholigical evaluations.
@Account for Comment
All of the "speculation" has been proven correct, so that's kind of a moot point.
How emotionally invested an individual might be in the quality of the adaptation obviously varies, but the fact remains that as early as Talisa being introduced, there was always a vocal minority of people on forums or wherever saying D&D clearly didn't know what they were doing, were making obvious writing mistakes, were changing characters and plot lines too drastically, didn't seem to understand some of the character arcs, seemed like amateurs, etc.
@@escalatingbarbarism5096 You meant that he had access to Beniof's phychiatric theraphy sessions. Point is it is beyond my moral limit to label someone I don't know with several mental disorders. Furthermore, spreading that accusationd of him for hours, months and years.
He is right about the actor's faces, might be right about brown woman, and more things than most. But his ranting style and those accusations turned people off his channel. Which is why he was unknown despite how good his info is.
It was his melodramatic delivery, for some of us. That, and his videos being far too long, mostly repeating the same thing over and over again.
I remember a couple of years ago The Guardian came out with a really bad article about the decline of GOT (it wasn't by their regular reviewer Sarah Hughes who's pretty good).
I remember thinking how much better it could have been if only the author had known about The Dragon Demands.
Why didn't HBO fire D&D when they refused to add more seasons. There was enough material for more seasons, and HBO was making a ton of money?
Just a guess but HBO made the calculation that the show was about to get exponentially more expensive with increases in actors salaries, sets, etc. The bean counters probably convinced them that they would make tons off of Blu Ray sales and other ancillaries. Of course Season 8 was so bad it killed off a good percentage of those expectations.
HBO probably bought into D&D's hype and became convinced their continued involvement was necessary for the shows continued success.
They called the shots, not Martin. And HBO trusted them, not Martin. The media repeatedly said that DnD were 'brilliant' rather than giving credit to Martin, and the heads of HBO read said media.
Because David Benioff is lucky that his daddy is personal friends with HBO's ex's CEO and producers. If it weren't for that D&D would had been sacked after the pilot episode of GoT(not the one that was released to the public but another that is in HBO's archives) back in 2010. There are a few videos from the channel called The Dragon Demands. He has covered the script for the unreleased pilot episode from GoT and I tell you it was so horrible that one of the mistakes was that there is no scene that would imply or say that Jamie and Cercei are brother and sister.
Martin wanted 3-4 seasons for his slogfest AFfC and ADwD, as that 4 years might enable him to 'catch up'. I see lots of GRRM worship around here, but as someone who started reading the series in '98, the fat fucker majorly dropped the ball after '01.
Yup I figured Martin chose not to release Winds of Winter out of spite.... no way was he going to let those hacks disrespect him and take credit for his genius... Can't wait for Weiss and Benioff to crash and burn!
Martin's okay at best, wannabe Tolkien that he is.
@james paul BAHAHA, good one! He wishes he was that good, at least Tolkien finished everything he set out to.
@james paul "Simpler", yeah right. What would a Communist sympathizer/"objector" (Martin) know about life that a Great War survivor (Tolkien) wouldn't?
I believe this is true
@@sojoNIN I love Tolkien, but I do prefer game of thrones world. Gandalf and the wizards being Angel's or higher beings just seems of to me. That's why I loved lotr so much, because they played down that aspect. The game of thrones lore just sits better with me.
Dumb and Dumber couldn't have their name driven in the mud any further.
Their shit has reached maximum depth, but not maximum width
Imagine scoring the rights for the TV show of the decade, and then you crapped it out that much your legacy is people calling you "Dumb and Dumber" for eternity 🤣😂🤣😂🤣
My worst fears were realized. Injection of sjw politics and tripping on the finish line.
There's still time
They can't. Won't stop us from trying.
"Beavis and Butt-head"? I almost cried when you said that, it's as if they existed for this comparison.
I can SEE these two morons speaking like them.
"Huh, huh, huh let's make a movie."
"Heh, heh, heh, yeah yeah!"
Then who's Proto-Hank Hill??
@@SuperWolsey "Dag Nabbit D&D, wat da hell ya doing to me show? I'm a take a propane can to this here"
@@XenoJehuty84 "Huh huh, it's gonna have boobs."
"Yeah! Yeah! Boobs!"
*teenage dropout laughter*
@@ShaunTheCHB George RR Martin could be Tom Anderson. "God dang kids been whackin' off in my toolshed."
All they had to do was end it with care and satisfaction and they would have been legends. Instead theyll be hated for years
All they had to do was using plausible tactics fighting the undead or give reason why they didnt. 1 episode. Just 1 episode done right....
Tbh the plot they thought of was bad yeah, but not that bad that you couldn't make something better out it, if had they just covered it up with a more or less plausible scenario how it all comes together. but how it was done in the end - you couldn't make it worse. That is the fact, that they are clueless and reason why there is such backlash. Had they just wrote a bad plot but showed it in a nice and plausible way people - then people had not noticed it as much as they did.
Martin has been extremely understanding of them and their creative decisions since the first season (he was a former screenwriter himself, afterall). But D&D grew arrogant and began to disregard him and his warnings as time passed. Which explains why Martin, it seemed, was distancing himself away from the show from Season 5 and onwards.
This is totally about egos after success got into their head.
"Hacks who lucked out and got exposed" yikes andre.
Says it all right there.
Just like Milli Vanilli!!!
D&D are auto tuning and/or lip syncing!
Criticism where criticism is due, but if you see this dude's videos and comments, his obsession with D&D is actually disturbing, regardless of what you think about their writing.
Well, look at the final two season's travel and logistics... essentially teleportation and the like, Marathon Gendry and the raven, etc...
Mind you, the most major event in the series history (The Red Wedding) is ALL ABOUT TRAVEL AND LOGISTICS! Travel was hard, they NEEDED THAT BRIDGE, and damn if it wasn't the most thrilling shit ever.
To "Cersei would have had to have been pregnant for at least two years" and the Army of the Dead would have surrounded Jon Snow and company for something like four days for any kind of logical travel to have taken place. (Eastwatch to Dragonstone scales out at something like 2,200 miles as the crow flies...)
And sure, I can totally see King Bran, if he's a pawn/leader of the Children of the Forest getting their revenge. Look at all the things that he didn't tell anyone that a moral person would have... Jon learning his heritage causes nothing but trouble, he doesn't warn Dany about Euron's fleet so Rhaegal and Missandei both get whacked, which turns Dany and Grey Worm both completely crazy, and then obviously DanyHitler. He can see the future! He doesn't tell anyone or try to change anything?
I mean, it makes sense if he's evil...
I definitely could have written a far better ending than D&D, and I have absolutely no doubt.
It really wasn't that hard to get out from Jon Snow's death if you know he is coming back... that's why everyone knows it is so bad. :D
Now that Martin has seen the fan reaction to all of the character endings, I suspect he’s going to change the entire ending just to make D&D look even dumber than they already look.
El Padre con Verga Larga well yes, if you spend an entire book leading up to it then it makes sense and I can see how power can corrupt. But I. The confines of 6 episode season, they should have just let her and Jon have it. But D&D are famous for F’ing up endings.
He certainly has the opportunity to, and everything he writes is golden. But the thing is, I don’t think D&D even remotely gave us GRRMs ending. When GRRM said it would be the same, that was based on assumption. He had not read the scripts and watched the show at the same time we did. He had no clue how they would truly end it, and after it ended GRRM will not speak about the ending. He shuts down any conversation that leads to that. That makes me think they completely did a 180 and made up stuff for their ending, and he was upset because he had told people already they would end the same. And now people will think that terrible ending was from his mind, when in reality it’s all D&D, but they’re going to pin it on GRRM because of the backlash. Couple of hacks they are.
@El Padre con Verga Larga No, a Targaryen going mad is cliche to me. I would rather see another character from a different family going mad, like one of the Starks for example.
The Character endings are shit and non canon.
@@sweetra07 yeah like Sansa. Would make sense too, for all that she came through
I saw some short clips from GoT table reads and just from looking at the two guys for moments, they immediately triggered my asshole radar. The way they looked at the actors, their body language, the vibe they gave off. It all reeked of insecure impostors who know on some level that they don't deserve the position of power they are in, are afraid of being asked questions they can't answer and over-compensate by radiating shallow arrogance and fake Alpha posturing. I have worked with people like that and recognize it.
Couldn't agree more.... I was sulking inside watching the table reads
GRRM to Dumb and Dumber:
"you're blessed with the rights to an epic saga that no one else possesses,
you're blessed to belong to one of the most powerful TV networks, one that is willing to give you a blank check to do it right,
and you're still blessed with a loyal fanbase,
and what have you done with these blessings, huh?
you made the last 3 seasons nothing more than glorified but poorly written fanfic.
you could have established an epic story that would be praised for a thousand years. but you collapsed MY saga, MY fantasy, into nothing."
Lucas and Martin should have never relinquished so much creative direction over their legends. I hope nobody else makes the same mistake for the almighty dollar.
@@sammielovessophie9519 yeah, the Woody Harrelson scene drying his tears with Dollar bills comes to my mind 🤣
My only regret is that I can only give this post one Upvote.
Stop calling them d&d that is for Dungeons and Dragons
Finally, someone with sense.
No, D&D while referring to them stands for Dumb and Dumber. Everyone knows that LOL
Wtf is Dungeons and dragons?
@@mikewazzupski If you haven't played Dungeons and Dragons with your friends you haven't really lived :P
Seriously though, it's a fantasy tabletop role-playing game where the only limit to fun and good storytelling is your imagination... That and maybe a bad dungeon master.
@@sophiemoconnell God what a nerd.... just kidding, I played me some D&D back in the day when heroes were made out of lead! lol
I personally realized the show was going to shit with season 5 with how they ruined the Arya/Faceless Men storyline. I knew they were going to screw it up the moment that man put on Jaqen H'ghar's face.
they didn't ruin Arya/Faceless Men storyline in S5, they ruined it at the end of S6
@@riccardoalcaro8483 The end of S6 was the cherry on top of the shit sundae, but the show managed to lose all the charm and mystery of the entire storyline. The entire thing was boring, illogical and made the Faceless Men seem like a joke. Of all the mistakes the show made, this is the one that hurts me the most. I pray to the old gods and the new the books don't finish the story arc in anyway similar to the show.
@@riccardoalcaro8483 Season 5 was pretty shitty all around until the last couple of episodes, which were good enough to make most people forget how bad the previous seven episodes were.
@@buckaroobanzai7063 i feel you man... For me the Dorne plot was the worst, horrible from start to finish. But let's be real they basically slowly butchered every storyline one by one starting with season 4, i don't know why it took until season 8 for people to turn.
Faceless Men is one of the most intriguing part of the books and they had them have rubber mask like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible. All mysticism gone.
wish hbo would have the balls to actually remake the season. the ratings would be thru the roof!!!
"They believed their own hype"
Classic victims of an Echo Chamber
hollywood certainly is an echo chamber
Based on the recent tweeted transcript of D&D's con panel, that's 100% accurate.
Yup they were praised for their terrible writing decisions, dialogue and story telling for seasons so why would season 8 have been any better?
Listening to this I think it's probable that Martin sold them a lot of duff outlines to expose their hackery.
Good for him.
Someone needs to mine the fuck out of the internet to see which fanfic stories he fed them.
That's what I'd do if I was him and these stooges told me they deserve to have a say in how my story goes. You think you're tough shit? You're on your own now, good luck.
And this is the story of how they fucked up Game of Thrones and ended up ruining their own rep as writers.
Maybe
What a shame Hollywood elitism has ruined yet another franchise.
......this was two idiots. Not Hollywood elitism. Even the studio wanted a more fleshed out story. Just because you have something to say doesn't mean it's smart
@@PrinceIsot those who use disparaging remarks as a way to elevate their own point of view are fools.
@@Niiiiith you're assuming an entire workforces attitude based on propaganda, I find that disparaging. Sometimes you don't have to have a good argument to point out a bad one ...
@@PrinceIsot you need to learn the term “elite” if you think a general workforce are the elite. You are a fool. This is not an insult, just another statement of fact.
@@Niiiiith do you even know how many people work in "Hollywood"? I'm a fool? 🤣
They guessed Jon Snow's heritage but had no idea what the story was about? I don't buy this. They spent a day searching through fan theories and lucky guessed that's it.
Lets not forget how Martin told them over and over and over again to do lady stoneheart and they STILL didn't.
Benioff and Weiss are like the Anti Trey Parker & Matt Stone.
Love this comment
Does anybody remember they wanted to do a HBO show where the South won the civil war?
Oh God!
Another bullet we dodged.
There's a Mocumentary called The Confederate States of Amrica that does that.
What?😨😨
Don't remind us
Oh boy, we missed the chance to be fed loads of racially charged propaganda, because that's what that would end up being.
After reading the books, you realise that most of the best dialogue came straight out of them, word for word in a lot of cases. And it is this
brilliant dialogue that helped capture audiences. In later seasons, with limited source material you can tell how much worse it had become, which
does say a lot about D&Ds literary capacity.
Those Friedmans sure look out for eachother.
George's biggest mistake is not cutting ties fully following this dispute and just collect the cheques silently. He liked the fame so much he still to this day defends the show, even season 8.
If he just stopped showing up at the events and gave no positive comment about the show, things would have been different. I mean on his blog he even attacked the fans who criticize the last season.
Thanks for this, it makes me forgive GRRM a bit and not be so angry with him for going on 9 years now to publish the WoW. D&D are unforgivable to me for ripping the characters to shreds and making them behave in nonsensical ways. But I can empathize with George; being disrespected and angry with what some hacks did with your creation is understandably a creativity/ productivity killer.
I wouldn't take this guy as gospel, to be honest. The truth is more nuanced, likely
As someone working on the field of complex technologies and development i wholeheartedly agree that putting RR Martin under duress could have caused further delays. You cannot force the development of complex narratives or technologies. And when put under unnecessary pressures, it actually delays progress even further. Because it demotivates and blinds the minds eye toward all possibilities and potential resolutions of complex problems.
What I'm most pissed about is that when D&D ran out of materials, instead of drawing from other writer's ideas, they went straight to what they know best, which was Hollywood scriptwriting. EVERYONE knows that Hollywood fucks up great stories by jumping too fast in materials that require kneading out or cutting out important materials that bring stories full circle. The very second they realized that the show needed more time to draw out the materials, they should've passed it off to someone who had the time to carry the show on. Instead, they took the selfish route and ended the show abrubtly so that they can say they were there from start to finish, no matter the cost.
Dumb and Dumber are bigger hacks than Jar Jar Abrams.
@@MoreAwsomeMetal That's what they were before they reached power, wealth and glory. They achieved it despite being hacks, frauds, pervs, crooks etc., because of the ethnic networking and ethnic nepotism that the chosen people engage in. There are talented ones, as there are talented people in every group, but one can only imagine how much better Hollywood movies/shows would be if it wasn't for this domination by one depraved ethnic group.
Lmao, Jar Jar Abrams...….that's what happens when you hire people who were obviously never true fans of the franchise.
@John Benko it's 4chan. Their influence is spreading, don't be surprised to see even larger upticks of anti-semitism in coming years. People are feeling increasingly disenfranchised in society, and like in Nazi Germany, they're starting to point the finger for all their problems at "DA JOOS!"
I'm sure that they would have been great with Star Wars. There's countless extended universe novels that they could have adapted.
...Wait... God damn it...
They are hacks. The ending of the show is the fault of two parties - one is GRRM who sold the rights to a book series he had not finished, and then when the show as being made he spent more time producing scripts for the show than working on his actual book series and even when he was writing he chose to write other books instead. So the point where they ran out of books is purely GRRM's fault.
Then you have the hacks D&D who are not accomplished writers in their own right, you can tell this by season 1 alone. Once they'd finished filming season 1 HBO came back and said you're over an hour short on the run time we agreed by contract, which is why season 1 feels the most professional because GRRM wrote extra scenes to be slotted into various episodes to pad the run time (the scenes with cersei and robert being a prime example of these extra scenes). D&D know nothing about writing complex characters or making a complex tv show, so the various departments of the tv show essentially had to self manage which made them all very successful at doing their own elements of the show with D&D basically 'supervising' but lacking anything but the most shallow of input.
The show was a hit because GRRM's source material is amazing and because the technical team in Northern Ireland are amazingly talented, the show's success was in spite of D&D not because of it. The final season is a perfect example of this, everything that's not the writing is executed to jaw stropping standards of polish - the acting, the sets, the costumes, the cgi, all are amazing to see and then theres the writing. which is god awful.
No. If D&D hadn't made drastic cuts from the source material they'd still have plenty of material to go with before the next book came out. This is solely their fault. HBO gave them all the freedom they wanted and THEY chose to go with just 8 seasons and majorly butcher many character arcs just so they could get to star wars.
I like to think RR decided to prove their hacks by not finishing the last book...
"Let's see what happens when I take away their safety net..."
"Yep."
Yeah beginning to think that
nah, art just takes time.
They were thinking that they would use GOT as a steppingstone to bigger and better things and they end up with nothing. They should have focused on the job at hand
Urgh, more nepotism. Same as it ever was...
People like to claim they used George's outline for the ending, I refuse to believe it. If some of this crap was in an outline, if I were George I would alter it. That way, nothing remotely feels like the show and leave the egg on d&d's faces.
so are these guys like conjoined twins, or why do they stay together forever and ever like married people?
They come across as a homosexual couple to me, with Benioff being the dominant one, lol! They probably spend their time together in leather fetish gear, with Weiss chained to a dungeon wall and Benioff spanking him.
More like those aliens from Treehouse of Horror VII "Citizen Kang" 🤣
@@jamiebraswell5520 I get the same vibe. I wouldn't go so far as to divine their private lives from that, but certainly the photos of them together that are shown here would, in isolation, lead me to believe they were a couple.
"To avoid confusion with all the other Friedmans" I hope ME doesn't get Epstein'd
Oy vey...
Andre was found to have committed suicide by beating himself over the back of the head with a shovel then burying himself in the woods.
Don't give Hollyweird any ideas
Since Kathleen Kennedy, Ruin Johnson, and Jar Jar Abrams have eviscerated StarWars, having D&D on board would have put the final stake through it's heart. Which might have been a mercy and maybe allowed it to rise from the ashes like a Phoenix. Now it will probably just wither away until everyone just wants to forget about it.
B F George Lucas ruined Star Wars. It’s been dead since 1999.
I hated the way they completely ruined the Dorne storyline. They ignored the complex plotting of the books and made the Sand Snakes a joke. The "you need the bad pussy" line is the single worst piece of dialogue in the whole series.
Martin is never going to finish the Game of Thrones.
Read the first the three books, which are some of the best fantasy since Tolkien, and write your own ending in your head.
You'll be happier than watching the TV show or waiting for Martin.
The forth one did get stale, didn't it? It seemed to just be grinding its gears and not put anything new/fresh in there.
@@TheEdM3 The first half of A Feast for Crows is pretty good. I heard second hand that it was written right on the heels of a Storm of Swords. But 'grinding its gears' is a good description of the second half. It grinds right to a halt, in terms of pacing and narrative momentum. And book 5 was worse.
@@MarkAndrewEdwards Man, it's curious to hear that Martin might've rushed through one of those books (even if only through half of it). What happened in the interim? Mainstream fame and big $$$?
With that said, I'd gotten that impression from the first half already.
@@TheEdM3 Based on interviews and what he's told other writers informally, he originally intended there to be a 5 year time skip between books 3 and 4. That would give some characters time to grow up and give Dani time to rule Mereen 'off camera'. The first half of the Feast for Crows was the 'epiloge' of sorts from Storm of Swords. However, Martin decided that he needed to follow the lives of his characters more lineally, so he re-wrote the second half of Feast for Crows without the timeskip.
And re-wrote.
And re-wrote.
Because Martin doesn't do a lot of outlining and planning. He's a 'exploratory' writer, writing by the seat of his pants, at least for the first draft or two. That means he does a LOT of re-writing. It's why he doesn't put out a lot of content. And it's another reason why I don't think he'll finish the books. He now has 'seen' the ending and he's lost is enthusiasm for the project. Hence all the side work and prequels, etc. I don't think he cares about the core store with Jon, Dani, Tyrion, etc.
The show died with Jon Snow. Ironically, exactly where GRR is currently up to.
Funny that....
pretty sure the show died with Tywin. Season 5 was a whole circus
Given Martin's own position when it comes to personal connections and professional cliques (aka, he's one of the gate-keepers making sure that only the right sort of people are allowed to win a Hugo Award) I find it hilarious to think that his greatest work may have just been ruined by a pair of hacks who's only qualifications were having the proper personal and professional connections....
Considering Martin's hypocrisy, yes, that is ironic
Thanks!
Star Wars is already a disaster, so it doesn't really matter if it "lucked out" or not.
Why didn't they just get Peter Jackson.
The guy tried stretching the Hobbit into 3 movies so he clearly wanted to make an epic fantasy tale.
He just didn't have enough material.
Wouldn't have been a problem with ASOIAF.
It could have been, quite literally, the best show ever, breaking with Martin was egomaniacal stupidity....
I hope that once Winds of winter and A dream of spring are published the whole Song of ice and Fire is redone in an excellent series.
Damn straight Star Wars lucked out. I was elated when I saw D&D were out with regard to Star Wars. They have shown to me that they can't write for shit. I don't want them involved with anything I'm a fan of moving forward.
D&D in 2002 called and said "Too late, sucka!".
Benioff hold up his pinky to the corner of his mouth and says:
"....I shall call him ...'Mini Dee'...."
The entire account here sounds plausible. The only detail I question is pressure by D&D slowing Martin's writing process. The spacing on the first three books was one every two years 1996-'98-2000. The fourth book took another five years (2005), the fifth book took a further six years (2011). And no new core series books in the EIGHT years since 2011. Martin has written himself into a corner and doesn't know how to get out, so he isn't.
@Keith
I'm afraid so. GRRM is an undisciplined writer sadly. He's never learned to kill his darlings.
D&D are so bad, I wouldn't be surprised to see them end up with the hacks on Discovery or Picard. 😂
You could tell starting with the changes they made in season 2 that their writing sucked compared to George's.
Just reminds of the line
"Whenever you get in any trouble all you have to say is My Father"
Watching this commentary brings back all the sadness & disappointment of how GoT ended. Feel especially sorry for the extremely talented cast & crew who were forced to do the rushed job of carrying out the piss-poor, rushed script put out by D&D's bad writing. I imagine it's exactly how Mark Hamill must have felt while filming The Last Jedi for Rian Johnson.
The degradation of Tyrion’s lines with every new season after S3 were indicative of the show’s downward spiral.
S1 Tyrion: "Never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor and it can never be used to harm you."
S8 Tyrion: "BrAn ThE bRoKeN!"
So Benioff's dad was chairman of the NY. Federal Reserve Bank AND a boardmember of Goldman Sachs! Wel that fucking explains how those pricks got the deal without the actual credentials and a solid vision for the show. David's dad owned the fucking store. This also explains why hardly anyone of notice in Hollywood critizes these bozo's. There is so much power behind David, it would be career suicide to critique them.
5:40 Wait, they impressed GRRM by guessing Jon Snow's true parentage, literally the most obvious "mystery" in the entire fucking series. Good god, that explains so much...
I wouldn't be surprised if George RR Martin actually has all his books finished, but he withheld them just to not give B&W the source material they actually needed.
They aren't finished he has admitted that several of times SINCE the show ended. The last book is estimated to being released in 2029 now by whoever publishes his books. We won't know the ending to this story any time soon, he has had ca. 26 years to finish this series and he's still not anywhere near being done.
August 2020 and I’m still PISSED
As a writer myself I would've left series 8 open ended with certain story arc's closed but others left open. Paying respect in some way to Martin's unfinished works.
Don't act like Martin is completely absolved here. He jumped on the money bandwagon just like D&D did without having his story finished. Knowing how long he takes to write, and knowing TV shows have a budget and time obligations to meet. He should have said it's an interesting project but wait until the literature is done before trying to adapt it. Did he expect to shows actors to stay under contract to film until he got around 5-10-15 years down the line to say here I'm finished. Sorry it doesn't work that way.
Doesn't matter if they're no longer making a Star Wars trilogy, damage has already been done.
A little off topic but how Martin felt about a single movie couldn't tell the story right but an R rated series could is exactly how I felt/feel about The Dark Tower and really hope a series is made on it. I've heard that there are rumors and am really hoping they're true
I was dying when you made that Beavis and Butt-head comparion Lol 😂😂😂😂
Thanks for linking the Dragon Demands in comments! He is great! Great stuff from you, thanks! Subbed!!
They dropped the ball at the end of season 4 and it snowballed from there, although I think many of their decisions regarding Danaerys fundamentally failed to understand what Martin was saying about her in the books. Still, the moment I found out they cut out Lady Stoneheart, I began to distrust them.
But looking back on it, they really mucked this up much earlier. Dany is the quintessential mama bear who will burn the world to a pile of ashen rubble for her cubs. Instead of trying to cultivate her utter ruthlessness as a natural outgrowth of her maternal instinct, they tried to develop it as a secondary feature.
So instead of seeing her attend to Doreah on her deathbed, we see her interring Doreah and Xaro alive in a vault--which is fine, as it still demonstrates that she can be horrible to those who threaten the bond with her dragons, but it does so at the expense of showing us that her maternal instinct extends beyond them. Doreah helped her take power, and showing Dany personally nursing her as she lay dying could have really enamored us with a sense of just how far she's willing to go for those she loves. But at the end of the day, an acceptable digression.
They could have done this just as effectively in Season 5 or 6, had they been faithful to the story of the Pale Mare. That scene where she goes down to wash the poor was probably one of the best ways Martin had of demonstrating her love for her subjects and her madness all at once. I mean, here she is in a city afflicted by a disease that makes people shit themselves to death, and she's going in to help wash the dying, disease-afflicted poor because they are her children.
It got worse when they made Missandei an older woman. This was another chance to show us a budding relationship between a surrogate daughter and Dany, almost like the child she never had. We lost chapters of them sleeping in the same bed, of Dany seeing elements of herself in the psyche of this wretchedly abused but remarkably clever little slave.
Imagine what she'd do if Missandei had been barely older than Season 1 Sansa when Cersei had her head lopped off?
Killing off one of the dragons on arbitrary grounds was yet another error, to say nothing of the way they butchered Euron and omitted Victarion. But even so, they could have had her and Jon on dragonback when the bells rang, and then just as she's telling the people of King's Landing to drop their weapons, THUNK! Rhogon catches a lethal scorpion bolt, and the masses roar and whoop, realizing that dragons can be killed. Maybe the redcloaks get bold and try to rush Dany while Euron barks orders and his crew loads a second bolt?
You could have set it up in such a way that the audience is cheering for Dany as she's burning children alive, and only after the thrill of a little collective vengeance is gone and you're left staring at the bodies of the innocent do you realize that this was horrifying, and you cheered it on.
Even having her go straight for the red keep, roasting everything in her path, could have been a breathtaking atrocity if Cersei had seized the moment to let many of the cheering peasants inside. Then it really would be the case that Cersei tried to use the common people as a shield.
There were many, many more places where D&D went wrong.
so big money is not only destroying our society and planet, but our tv series too.
Wow, never thought of D&D as Beavis and Butthead, but that makes much more sense.
Rich daddy. He’ll be fine. His father will just buy more shows for him to produce.
Don't need daddy anymore. Netflix bought the hype. 200 millions.
Martin: "Do you really believe your own hype that much"
D&D: "I AM THE HYPE"
To be fair the quality of Game of Thrones was going downhill since the start season 5, the slope just got steeper at the end.
These two guys seem to have got high on the smell of their own bodily wastes and believed they were a true gift to the plebs through their 'inspired' choices and writing.
Good analysis. D&D are total hacks confident in their own superiority. They are victims of their own hype just like Abrams and Johnson, tragically for both franchises.
If they had humility and patience their situation and reputation would be the opposite now.
If I was the author I’d be pissed that they didn’t fully read my books and have the audacity to write it.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
One can argue that Martin had dawdled on Winds of Winter far too long w/o pressure from the writers. In fact, I'd suggest that part of the reason Martin was not in a hurry to expedite the series is that in those early seasons, he was enjoying not having to meet deadlines to collect a paycheck. Martin has been avoiding progressing the ASoIaF plotline for over a decade now. That's not all on Benioff and Weis.
This is not to exonerate them for the unmitigated disaster of Season 8. Rather, it's to say that this was a foreseeable debacle to anyone who was a fan of the books, and dared to have the very moderate expectation that the author make progress on the series without relying on a TV series for bank.
Calling them D&D is an insult to Dungeons & Dragons.
Preach!
Sorry Netflix, you got screwed.