Review: Roger Norrington--The WORST Conductor Ever?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2020
- This ghastly box of romantic music graphically reveals the utter sterility and expressive impotence of Norrington's performances of some of our most cherished masterpiece; but my oh my, they do sound different.
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Norrington seems like a prime example of your favorite saying: "Abnormal is fine; stupid is not"
"Elgar didn't play Elgar like Norrington" Bahahahaa!!!
When I was studying musicology I had the opportunity to talk to Sir Roger after a rehearsal of the Sea Symphony by Vaughan Williams in Stuttgart. He never got tired to emphasize that even in RVWs times they still played without vibrato. I objected and said, that Vaughan Williams himself used the vibrato while conducting the recordings of his "Dona nobis pacem" or his fourth symphony. You can hear a distinct vibrato even in the live recording of RVWs fifth symphony which he himself conducted in I think 1952! But Sir Roger didn't want to hear that and continued to not use vibrato...
He made a career out of it--there really was something wrong with him.
As a punishment for your scathing review, RN has announced he will record Rimski's Sheherazade with no vibrato.
I heard he was doing Gliere's third. That should be a revelation.
Yuck! What a horrible thought.
Listen to RN'S Overture from Die Meistersinger von Nuenrnberg. VOMIT.
Don't speak too early ! Perhaps someone at the SWR will have the idea...
Lol.
This brings back memories! I first encountered Roger Norrington in the late 1980's, when I had just got my first CD player and I was eager to collect standard classical repertoire in the new medium. I bought his Beethoven Ninth with the London Classical Players on EMI and the adjective I came to mind was "bracing." My favorite Beethoven Ninth then and now is the 1951 Furtwängler Bayreuth performance, which is everything Norrington's isn't - slow, majestic, almost cosmic - but Norrington's was a quite effective contrast to Furtwäbgler's monumentality. I bought the rest of his EMI Beethoven cycle as it appeared and also got his Berlioz "Symphonie Fantastique," which I loved for the authentic period instruments (ophecleides and serpents) he used in the "March to the Scaffold" that created such an exciting buzz I briefly wondered if my stereo was grounded properly. I also bought his disc of Romantic overtures, including Wagner's "The Flying Dutchman," and that's when he started to lose me. I still have all those discs somewhere but I haven't listened to them in decades and I don't think I've ever heard any of his Stuttgart recordings. (Incidentally your automotive metaphor is appropriate because the other thing Stuttgart is famous for is the Porsche factory.) I was particularly amused that the "Romantics" boxed set you were reviewing includes music by Elgar, who lived long enough to make recordings of his own works - so the "Historically Informed Performance" guesswork applied to people like Bach or Beethoven becomes even sillier when we have the composer's own recordings to tell us what he REALLY wanted
This is hiLARious ... And thanks for the heads-up!
Your great! Keep em coming love your channel
You mentioned that there are period instrument Beethoven recordings that you thought were better executed than Norrington's. Are there any that you could recommend, and if "yes", could you do a video on them? I am learning a tremendous amount daily from your reviews.
Thanks for asking, and for watching! I would not do that because I don't think that's sufficient reason to play Beethoven other than as a purely academic interest. I've done quite a few Beethoven symphony videos where I've discussed individual performances and made my recommendations.
I saw RN conduct the Berlin Philharmonic in 2001. A British program. I was sitting in the Podium Plätze, directly behind the orchestra. The distain the orchestra had for him was palatable. No respect. What a poseur...
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Ha, yes. Thanks. Darn autocorrect and fat fingers.
You’re killing me! 🤣🤣🤣🤣 The mask, the ear plugs! I laughed out loud.
Because of this fascinating video, I looked for Norrington on youtube. There really is no such thing as bad publicity. His music sounded "different" but OK to my ears. But your critique raised 2 questions. When did vibrato become the default? Why is vibrato better than no vibrato? I have noticed that I sometimes find vibrato annoying.
I agree. I tried listening to Beethoven’s 7th symphony in the 2nd movement recording of roger norrington. I was like no I can’t
I'm not a Norrington fanboy at all. But I love his recording of Haydn's Die Jahreszeiten with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe on Profil (2008).
I agree about Norrington. The idea, though, that Americans don't have ideology is risible!
Maybe fifty years ago American politics were placid and bland, but comparisons of recent years suggest Germany in the 1920's or Spain in the early 1930's. Neither went well. I'm not going to name names here.
I prefer my politics boring. Want excitement? Go to a sporting event, the theater, the opera, or the symphony.
I sometimes struggle with some of Norrington's interpretations of Vaughan Williams, but I do often find them interesting and worth listening to again. And his live Sixth Symphony performance with the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra is one of the best performances of that available - the very opposite of sterile and impotent. th-cam.com/video/M11YIgtbTHM/w-d-xo.html
I was taught by my father at an early age “people have been shot for less than what Norrington did to Beethoven 9.” Shockingly though for some reason (maybe the same reason why Boulez and Mahler 7 go well together) his Missa Solemnis on Hänsler actually works....beautifully sung, you hear lots of details others miss, the transition from the Sanctus to the Benedictus is lovely.
It’s the ONLY exception to the norrington rule.
I have to say that recently I was basically forced to do something I thought impossible of myself. I listened to Norrington conduct Brahms 3. My. GOD. How awful. He started the work with a windmill that would have made Pete Townshend jealous. And yet, so much movement for so little art. He is THE WORST EVER.
I often times do not agree with Mr Hurwitz. Her can be harsh. He can be bitchy. He says bad things about Furtwangler on occasion and that really does vex me. But, he does his research and he has the right to his opinions. On this point he cannot be questioned. There is no worse conductor on the scene than Norrington.
A great door stopper. Indeed.
Yes Norrington does and did things his way, but he studies the scores and trains players extremely well. It was difficult listening to this barrage of criticism when KARAJAN is just over your shoulder glaring in gold. You listen to Karajan and as soon as the brass appear everything else is drowned out. And his lack of attention to detail in the scores was astonishing. Take Tchaikovsky's Pathetique something he recorded many times... The coda in the first movement, the trombones should come in on the third beat of every bar but they are all over the place. Take the march, just before the final return of the main tune you should hear the four semi quavers (almost glissando grace notes) played by the violins before the powerful brass chords but Karajan isn't interested, he's just interested in loudness not dynamic range and the third cymbal clash is meant to be short! The final movement: no split 1st and 2nd violins. Etc. Etc.
Norrington is far from my favourite conductor but I would take him over Karajan (aside from perhaps a few very early EMI recordings) any day.
Norrington believes in what he does just like others before him (those who challenged the straight-playing mediocrity) did too and a lot of the time got criticised for it (Stokowski, Silvestri, Sinopoli to name just three).
Actually, Norrington did NOT believe in what he did. He knew it was all smoke and mirrors.
It's interesting you choose to respond to just one comment David - Norrington's interview with Bruce Duffie seems to suggest he did believe in it, very much so.
@@joewebb1983 This is the worst video in this channel!
very funny and quite valid critique.
Have you seen the TH-cam video of Norrington's Mahler 9 at the Proms? It sounds awful to me, but what do you think? I can understand a conductor wanting to reduce the overuse of vibrato and so bring out the 'transparency' and definition of the strings, but apart from that his conducting seems all over the place.
And leaving out vibrato does not do that. Where do people get these weird ideas that you get greater "transparency" and "definition?" You get just the opposite, often enough--a thin, wiry, unbalanced, intonationally challenged mess.
What a refreshing view on an overrated conductor.
His EMI with Wagner orchestra pieces from operas was one of the first CDs I got to review. Oh dear, even today I remember my aversion against these recordings. They’re just ridiculous misunderstandings. They sound so incredibly ugly that I wonder, why the orchestra not stopped the release. I think that Norrington detests romantic music and tries something like a deconstruction. But I like even music I do not like, too much to hear it butchered.
Ha ha ... i have Beethoven symphonies by Norrington . I hadn't a clue about this perspective that is held by the video host . Interesting . So what would people recommend for the Beethoven symphonies ? I will still study Norrington as i believe his work is in my possesion for a reason ...
Maybe his Magic Flute... well I like it
Conductors like Roger Norrington make me proud to be British!
More proof that nationalism and musicality are mutually incompatible.
I was optimistic to Norrington until I heard his Fantastique with enlightenment orchestra and that was garbage.
the waltz from that performance is the most beautiful I've heard to date
Did you know William Maloch (Pacifica Radio in the 1970s/80's)? I think he interviewed instrumentalists who played under Mahler and edited together existing modern recordings to illustrate what came closest to their recollections. I remember Maloch interviewing Norrington and Zander before their "authentic" experiments on Beethoven and Stravinsky.
Sure.
You know what you made me do, don’t you? I just downloaded the Mendelssohn to have a listen.
I think someone else said it better than me but Norrington sparked a conversation about music. You may not like what he does (and I find him a bit, as you say, ideological) but if he gets you talking about music so passionately, job done.
FWIW I like his Symphonie Fantastique with the LCP purely for the use of copper baths instead of chimes at the end. A very other worldly sound.
His LCP recordings are all available on streaming services.
I don't need, and never needed Norrington to "talk passionately about music" or start a conversation about it. if someone needs to feed us garbage to speak an interest then there is something very wrong.
Remember "Hooked on Classics"? Damn, that was hideous -- taking the melodic line and replacing the counterpoint with a disco beat. That got me talking for a while about how awful Disco was.
@@paulbrower that came out when I was about seven. I loved it. Got it for Christmas. Of course my tastes are more sophisticated now, but it did get me interested in classical music.
Thanks! I wholeheartedly agree with your assessment of RN. About time someone spoke his mind about this conductor.
I have Wehler's History of Germany in my study. Great resource because of all the data it contains, but you should avoid the text. Also, each book was significantly thicker than the previous one. The final volume is perfect to prop up your monitor to a decent working height.
They should have forced him to do it in person. Would serve him right.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I did a bunch of classes with Wehler in Bielefeld in the mid-90s. Really interesting and clever guy, but the god-like status he'd gained by that time didn't exactly do wonders for his sense of humility, let's put it that way.
Norrington was asked on BBC radio why Elgar performed his symphonies with vibrato. The charlatan replied that Elgar recorded the works too late for vibrato-free orchestras. Their sound has already been polluted by 1914 (!). I wanted to ask Norrington why he didn't get the strings to use portamento, which abounds in Elgar's recordings, but I knew the answer: Norrington doesn't like it!
Yes indeed! Norrington's date for when vibrato appeared changes moment by moment, to suit his convenience. He lives in his own reality and like certain ex-US presidents says whatever he wishes were true at any given time. Why does anyone listen to him?
So accurate: Roger Norrington is responsible for the (possibly) worst-ever recording of Schubert’s 9th (Great) symphony. The tempo is so fast, esp. in the opening movement, that one suspects Sir Roger was in a hurry to get to the loo or at least home. To think that he was a student of Adrian Boult is just amazing - it’s as if he’s deliberately trying to show that he isn’t Boult
Or anyone else, for that matter.
"German history is such a wonderful example of where ideology gets you". That could explain the German infatuation with Norrington, but as we know he first made a name of himself in the UK. A conductor is a dictator and the orchestra must obey even if most of its members know that for instance Elgar did not object to vibrato when he conducted his violin concerto with Menuhin and his cello concerto with Beatrice Harrison. Should not the authenticity of a performance of romantic music be as important as that of baroque music?
Thank you for the warning, Mr. Hurwitz. I’ll be sure to stream this when unsavory guests come to visit. 😂
I hope it works!
You have reason. I have never understood why such a musician like Norrington is so obsessed with "No vibrato at all". I can understand this for certain Baroque pieces or composers, but absolutely no for the Romantics. When a conductor is so pretentious with his stylistical "Diktat" or impositions, he looses all his skills as a conductor. Elgar, Wagner or Tchaikovsky without vibrato are simply unconceivable! What a pity for such a musician...
I have never listened to Norrington before so I sampled his Mahler 5th and 9th and the Schubert C Major. I must say I was highly burned by your trashing of the Vanska/Minnesota Mahler - which I think are absolutely wonderful (especially the 7th which I would place 2nd only to Bernstein NYPO)
The Schubert has all the grace of Big Foot He sucks everything we love about Schubert out of it. And the Mahler 9th - what a hot mess! You would never know the Andante Commodo is just about the most beautiful thing ever wrtitten. The end of the Burlesque is like watching ten cars crashing down an icy hill. Will they make it? Compare to the equally ferocious but totally disciplined version by Karajan.
The vivid present sound only accentuates the weird balances, tempo shifts and weird self indulgences. There are parts of the 5th I think are very good and exciting, but it is never long before he loses control.
How to explain the rave reviews on Amazon? These are not "interprtations" - they are massacres!
I like the Vanska Mahler 7th (and 4th) and said so in my reviews. But second only to Bernstein? No way. There's too much out there.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Granted you have heard a lot more than I have. I only know about 10 recordings.
I just listened to Norrington's March to the Scaffold. More like a march with lead feet!
Oh c'mon Dave, don't hold back. Tell us what you REALLY think.
By hearing the very worst, you appreciate more the best.
Roger did have an ideological purpose after all.
Good man, you're so funny, but also very informative and educative.
Many years ago I saw the man at work in Stuttgart, but I only had eyes for Hilary Hahn playing the Elgar violin concerto, so don't really have an opinion on Mr. Norrington.
I only have one recording of him, Idomeneo on DVD from the big DVD box of Mozart operas.
Nuts. Of course I have that set in my collection.
I would also add - when you first listen to Norrington Mahler - you are seduced by the clear textures, articulation and vivid sound - and it's "different" - my initial reaction was "I really like this" - but after awhile you realize how warped and out of control it is. But I have the urge to listen to more just to revel in the horror of it all!
it's an empty ideology. Watching pre war videos of orchestras or listening to the recordings by Arnold Rosé, who was concertmaster of the Vienna Phil for many years and played under Mahler, there is definitely no shortage of vibrato, maybe a bit less then it would become later, but still. It's all about clarity, intensity and musicality as e.g. Carlos Kleiber could generate...Have all these german players been brain washed by Norrington? Why do they accept this?
Mahler was dealing with orchestral players who were then mostly amateurs by modern standards. He had a low view of the playing of his time. Oddly, he was only six years older than Toscanini, who was a demanding tyrant as a conductor. Toscanini and Mahler were rivals; Mahler simply didn't live as long.
Today one would not get away with such because orchestral play is more standardized...and homogenized. One gets better results with a small-city orchestra (Pittsburgh, St. Louis) today than with a London orchestra of a century ago. It is no longer necessary, or even effective, for a conductor to micro-manage orchestral play as Mahler had to (and got hated for).
Checked out the last movement of the New World Symphony by Norrington and quite honestly got a migraine 30 seconds in. You make a compelling case here, and I think you might be right.
Whenever I hear the name Norrington (aka Annoyingtone), I reach for my Klemperer.
However, to be wholly truthful, I must confess that I fell for some of those gushing Penguin reviews years ago. Yes, that Elgar Symphony No. 1 (paired with the vibrato-less Prelude to Die Meistersinger) briefly made its way into my collection, along with those Brahms symphonies and a few of the LCP Beethoven symphonies. I've tried and tried to give away those cds via Amazon, but eight or nine years later, they still have no takers.
My only contact with Norrington was a Mahler 5th I streamed. I had to stop mid second movement. It was so disgusting and wrong that I was afraid I might never be able to listen to the symphony again.
While I do generally agree - I actually really like Norrington’s 1874 Bruckner 4th. Although that’s not the version I prefer, the first movement is great and “Sir” Roger pulls it off with aplomb. That doesn’t really exonerate him but, meh(?).
Sorry, don't agree. That final peroration is a blur..
I accidentally came across Norrington's Wagner recordings last night and decided to give them a try...with nearly everything I listen to, I can find something positive to latch on to or that catches my interest or that I enjoy. But his Wagner, I could not find any enjoyment or purpose in it. The sound was much too light and way too fast for what I associate with Wagner. First time in a while that I came away from a recording with nothing I particularly enjoyed. And what do I see when I first open TH-cam today? This video!
I remember watching Norrington do Mahler 9 at the Proms on TV a few years back. It was horrible!
I don’t know how sad this is, but just saw the news that Sir Roger will be retiring from conducting on 21st Nov. That he’s bowing out with my local orchestra- Royal Northern Sinfonia I suppose is a noteworthy thing.
Well, it is news.
His Beethoven is truly atrocious. "Train wreck" is about the nicest thing you can say about it.
Hahaha still that guy as a huge discography on Spotify, recorded for all big labels. So he is a lucky guy then; still having a big career.
Yes! I COMPLETELY agree with your assessment of Norrington. I had the misfortune of choosing him for my first Beethoven symphony cycle. Though inexperienced as a listener, I did realize something didn’t sound right and it wasn’t long before I got rid of it. My second cycle was Gardiner, which isn't much better. These early experiences gave me a long-lasting distrust of historically informed performance. When I then got the big, romantic and enveloping Karajan, it sounded like the greatest thing ever in comparison.
(Reposted in an attempt to beat the spam filter).
And you did the best my friend!!
If I'd been wearing my mask while watching this, I wouldn't have had to wipe all those droplets off my screen... HILARIOUS!!! (And I agree!)
I once had a Bruckner 6th recording by Norrington. It was the only one of my many Bruckner recordings that I seriously disliked, and the lack of vibrato was just a small part of it.
Bravo!!!
No....I expect I'm the worst conductor, judging by my air conducting when I'm in the house alone....lol
I feel you man.
No. I'm the greatest air conductor of all time, as far as I"m concerned. I get the phrasing just right and bring out all the colours and textures. Plenty of vibrato.
Humorous and pointed as always! Loved the “sex doll” reference. 😆
Have to agree with your assessment overall.
And one of the meanest bastards I ever worked with.
oooooh do tell do tell
My first experience with Norrington was his recording of BErlioz Symphonie Fantastique. Most of the critics found it superb because it was recorded with original instruments. Time has passed, and I still not interested by it. And I put he cd on ebay, and sell it in a jiffy, for the double of the price I paid for it. So....
Was it the recording with the Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart, or an earlier one? You might be interested that the Stuttgart recording received a 9 for artistic quality (and a 10 for sound quality) in the Classic Today review by mr Hurwitz himself. I agree with that review, and not with the current TH-cam post (The WORST Conductor Ever?).
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with most of your comments here. I’m genuinely curious…what’s your opinion on John Eliot Gardiner? What about Nikolaus Harnoncourt? What’s your overall view of Historically informed performance?
Watch my videos, read my reviews at classicstoday.com, and find out.
How do you know he was wrong about romantic era orchestras playing without vibrato ? What are your sources ?
There are too many to go into here, but if you're curious, check out the papers I have published in peer-reviewed musicological journals, including these:
classicstoday-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Music-and-Letters-2012-Hurwitz-final.pdf
classicstoday-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Organ-Final-pub-8-5-14.pdf
There is much else besides, but if you're serious about learning the answer this will get you started. What I find even more incomprehensible is that such an idea could ever catch on in the first place. The plain notation of the scores and the sound of the music would, I should think, make the correct performance practice obvious to anyone with ears and a heart. That anyone could seriously entertain that idea that Norrington must be correct has been one of the most depressing and disillusioning moments of my entire professional career, because if we can't trust the musicians to understand the music they perform, who can we trust? It's appalling.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you, I am reading your articles now. Perhaps Norrington is misguided in his attitude to vibrato, but I think it is unfair to castigate him so - is it not admirable to try to understand performance practises of the past even if later evidence contradicts your theories?
@@handelnonpuomiamusa4982 That's not what he did. He simply lied. There was no excuse for it. He was never a scholar or seeker after truth. He was an opportunist, plain and simple.
That was great! And hilarious! Completely agree with you! (But did I understand you correctly that you don't like the Schubert 9th?!)
No! I love the Schubert--I did a whole video on it. Have a look!
I noticed how in this one you didn't say, "Happy listening" at the end. Makes sense as to why.
Actually, it's "Keep on Listening."
Did you pass your course? :)
Yes, actually, but it wasn't pleasant,
@@DavesClassicalGuide You indirectly violated the Basil Fawlty rule of diplomacy with Germans: Don't mention the war!
Spot on David.....don't forget that it is SIR Roger Norrington I will have you know! .
Ooooooooooo..........🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Well done, Dave. I have always loathed the "authentic movement" (especially Norrington!), with their insistence on playing only on antiques; never mind the execrable performances. (But then, why bother with playing well, when you have a top-selling gimmick?!)
"Stuttgart sound"? Reminds me a bit of the Vienna Philharmonic, with their horrible non-vibrato flutes and oboes. Are they still doing that? (I know they have had some break in tradition by now allowing women players in the ranks.)
Lol! This reminds me of a pet peeve with recordings that feign to presume the original intent of the composer thus instead of, say, Appalachian Spring with a full bodied orchestra, they serve it up on piano and accordion. Or authentic versions of Beethoven with primordial instruments. It all got to be so precious and smug it'd make you gag. I mean, how purist could they get! Well, that's how I felt about all that, but I'm going to take your advice on Norington and avoid it like my life depends on it. Thanks!
I generally agree with you on these pieces you mentioned. And yet, I've seen you rave about his Beethoven Cycles which seem to be in the 9 or 10 rating. So....still "worst conductor ever"?
Sure. Not everyone can fail all the time. I praised the Beethoven because (as I note below I think) I appreciated the fact that they represented the best and most persuasive case for his approach, which I recognize even though I don't agree with it. My decision to call him "worst" isn't merely based on my personal like or dislike of his work; it's a reflection of my belief that he is a big phoney and that the basis of is art is a lie--and by the way, I KNOW that he knows it.
David Hurwitz I have to admit, his Maher 9 was the most lifeless performance I ever heard. Geez!
@@laurencelevine3955 I largely agree. I like his Beethoven and his Berlioz Sy Fantastique.
Dave, I definitely agree with you about Norrington. (Why does this guy even have a knighthood anyway?) I once heard his Beethoven 9th with the London Classical Players. He butchered that work! Give me George Szell's classic recording over that one any day!
I listened the introduction of Brahms 1st Symphony conducted by Norrington....it sounds like he was conducting Brahms with an orchestra from the times of Bach....flat and old 😐
Remember....
I agree that Norrington is horrible in the Romantics in his SWR period. But I like some of his work with the LCP, especially his Beethoven and Berlioz. But David, please make a video about how horrible Simon Rattle is! Talk about the emperor wearing no clothes!
Sigh...I've been doing that for so many years. But I have the big EMI box, so I may get to it!
Brilliant, David! Intl Festival of Arts & Ideas once invited a theater company from Finland who staged Romeo & Juliet in a pizza parlor as greasers dressed like Sha Na Na in Finnish! There were subtitles in English, sadly.
ok. So, after listening to your rants about Norrington, I listened to some of his stuff, here on youtube, and I get what you say. From the comments under his videos though, it seems he has many many fans who think his way of playing ' it's pure perfection'. The video I watched was with beethoven 3, which, apparently, if played( live) with enough enthusiasm and precision, there will always be people who will be moved by it, no matter who the conductor, no matter how dry the interpretation. I begin to think that once there is a 'hype' in classical music, it is there to stay. forever. period. And I wonder, is there a chance you have this strong of a reaction because you are more exposed to the early- mid 20th century interpretors who were FULL of personality and ego?
Hahah great great video sir! Love your unsolicited strong opinions and I tend to agree with them
Norrington (Boring-ton?) brought some interesting recordings. Yes, a vehicle crash or a house-fire can be interesting. So can a cat devouring a sparrow. But with his London Classical Players, Norrington seemed to have his recording efforts cut off as people quit buying them. We were surprised to find none of what supposedly followed in his perverse 'discovery' of the Romantic era. There would be none of the obvious were he convincing enough to get people to keep buying his recordings -- no Peer Gynt, no Tchaikovsky ballets or symphony scores (or for that matter, violin and first piano concerto), no Dvorak of any kind, no Sheherezade, no La Mer, no Sibelius, no Elgar, no Ives, no Vaughan-Williams... no Rach second (concerto or symphony), no.... maybe had he been successful we might have gone into non-romantic Sacre and Shostakovich Fifth and gotten some Schoenberg in the bargain. Copland? Bernstein (Leonard or Elmer)? Gaak!
The sales volume stopped him from taking music off a cliff. If you didn't believe in free markets before then, you could believe that they worked with "Boring-ton". He stayed clear of obscure work.
Norrington: A kind of »un-musical« Celibidache …
If you're going to bash a conductor in public, best make sure he's British. So much the better if he's a knight of the realm. Is there a pattern emerging here?
Yes: the worst conductors happen to be British and Knights of the Realm. Coincidence? No actually, because the fact that the record industry was headquartered in London for much of the 20th century meant that British artists were given unprecedented access and exposure for decades, and sometimes this meant that they were promoted for purely nationalistic or provincial reasons having nothing to do with musical ability. So naturally some of the worst will be British. It was the logical result of the state of the industry at the time. Remember, for example, that Decca was originally headquartered in Geneva, which is why the Suisse Romande orchestra, which was never very good, made so many recordings with Ansermet. I really think you need to lose the anti-British paranoia and simply take a step back and understand the dynamics of the industry in Britain and beyond. I have been just as critical of Abbado as of Rattle or Norrington, and moreover have insisted that he did his best work in London with the LSO, and that DG should issue a box of the those recordings, but it has not, instead preferring Berlin and Vienna for (I believe) unmusical reasons. But you have not mentioned my several Abbado videos. Why? Because he wasn't British so you don't care? Or because it reveals a more balanced perspective? I am not the one here with the lopsided point of view.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Don't get me wrong David, I'm not a nationalist. In fact the area of England I live in and the working-class people who live in it have always been short-changed by the 'Londoncentric' outlook which seems to dominate. But I don't really see how it's helpful to attack individual artists, when there are so many more interesting things to comment on. And don't forget, it was Walter Legge who went to fetch Karajan after the war - and London gave work to Furtwangler, Klemperer, &c among many others. Hardly indicative of a huge English bias on their part. Incidentally, I have left a comment on one of your Abbado threads. I remember he brought the LSO to Birmingham to perform the Rite and some French music when I was a student in Birmingham. Marvellous!
@@stuartclarke4683 You may not think it's helpful to attack artists but I am a critic and it's part of what I do when I see a point to it. I'm comfortable with that aspect of the job, and judging from the number of views on those videos so are most others.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Well of course, you'll attract people of a like mind. Sometimes I agree with you - sometimes not. Would you like it any other way? Don't you prefer it if people feel differently to you now and again? I'm responding because I'm stimulated by what you do - you get that, right? I tell you what I'd really like to see you have a go at, and that's Gramophone's list of the 20 best orchestras. I'd love to hear your take on that one!
@@stuartclarke4683 Of course I get it. That's why I'm replying to you in detail. I enjoy the discussion with a thoughtful viewer. I don't actually take lists like that seriously--best at what? It's impossible to say, really.
Loving the discovery of your channel. :-) "Worst in the universe" . . . . . I thought everyone had drunk the "can't say that" Kool-Aid. :-) Thank God, not. :-)
I have the Norrington complete Brahms symphonies...still in print, but currently in Japanese reissues. And I like his Brahms recordings!!!
The London Classical Players.
Like someone likes a steak without salt or any spices, just my feeling when all is played without vibrato and come on! My brother plays in the Suttgart orchestra and he sais that the tunes especially with cellos sounded dreadful!
When I think of the worst Conductors, I think of someone who doesn't know what he/she is doing or cannot achieve results. Norrington knows what he is doing and obtains the results he is after. You may not like them, but does that make him bad? I think most listeners are so used to hearing so much souped up Brahms for so long that they are not able to think anew and set aside what they already know. If you are able to keep an open mind, which I am, and actually listen to the moves, there is a lot to enjoy in his recordings. Not all of them, certainly. I once listened to an elgar 1st of his that was so very, very bad; along with other works. But I know to stay away from certain pieces with him.
@@kend.6797 I think Norrington was generally better with the LCP than in Stuttgart.
@@kend.6797 You're not alone -- I haven't heard the Elgar, but I do like to savor the Norrington Brahms symphonies now and then. And when I'm finished listening to those, I pull out the Chailly set (which Mr. Hurwitz also totally dismissed, but its safe to assume he will never read this confession...).
Didnt Norrington do a Ring Cycle?
Norrington was marketed as the answer to excess. Arrogant and smug reviews were aimed at making the listener feel inferior. Funny to hear him taken down.
I long ago gave away his recordings of Beethoven 1 and 6 (LCP on EMI) but still have 2 and 8 which I haven’t listened to in years. I doubt anyone would want them now! On the other hand, he recorded a very respectable Berlioz Requiem for SWR that I do bring out (along with Colin Davis’s first account now remastered on Pentatone).
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That disc of 2 and 8 was the highlight of his cycle, so I don't think you'd regret listening to it again.
Actually, I don't think his later Berlioz and Beethoven is all that terrible, and for some reason, his Holst is very respectable. But when your career is one Berlioz disc, one disc of Holst and Elgar, and one Beethoven 9, something is very wrong
I gave the Beethoven my highest rating, not because I liked it especially, but because I felt it represented the most successful and comprehensive realization of his intentions, and the players deserved credit for that. The Holst is good because the piece is all pattern-making with little human expressiveness at all, and almost nothing the requires an espressivo from the strings.
Big smile during and long after watching 😂
Funnily enough some of Norrington's early *choral* recordings (Monteverdi, Schütz, Mendelssohn, all made in the 1970s before Norrington became truly famous) are quite good. But I could never abide those LCP Beethoven symphony versions on EMI, and now, I fear, if I ever hear the Stuttgart CDs I'll be forever reminded of David Hurwitz's sex-doll analogy.
"Famous because it sounded different". Norrington has no (what I call) a sense of romantic style. One cannot escape the fact that music is entertainment and I am not entertained by Norrington, not intellectually nor emotionally. As far as I am concerned it is "the emperor's new clothes".
In fairness, I attended a lovely concert in 2012, with Norrington conducting the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment in Haydn's 85th Symphony, Bizet's Symphony in C and arias by Gluck, Bizet and Berlioz with Anna Caterina Antonacci.
Just remember folks: most orchestras are much better than most conductors, so of course there are some good Norrington concerts and recordings. The musicians need to retain some self-respect, even if it means letting him take the credit.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Indeed, and of course the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment is an excellent ensemble in its own right.
"It could only happen in Germany because the Germans are the only ones who would put up with this": Norrington's German "career" began in 1997, when he was 63. A late bloomer perhaps? He was well-known before that, but I tend to agree, music does need its "central heating"!
Norrington was an early-music choral conductor of no special distinction who only became "well known" internationally when he jumped on the HIP bandwagon and started inflicting his "discoveries" on the classical and romantic repertoire, especially with modern orchestras. Before then, no one cared about him particularly.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I had heard of him before he went to Salzburg, and for someone interested in classical music, my knowledge is not particularly broad; neither do I have much interest in what he did (or does). Norrington was certainly well-known in Britain well before 1997, featuring from time to time in Sunday colour supplements, ("A Life in the Day") etc. The London Classical Players got a good deal of coverage on Radio 3, as did the Bournemouth Sinfonietta. His "alternative approach" was even lauded to some extent, which brings me back (albeit long-windedly) to my point that it is not correct to say that this could only happen in Germany. It happened to him the UK before that: it is just that he became well-known internationally during his time in Germany.
@@mrinman7407 Norrington was a big deal from the 1980s thanks to his LCP Beethoven cycle. As far as I'm concerned, his move to Stuttgart was when he fell off the radar, not when he "got big". Germany was his retirement plan, not his big break.
Vaughan Williams without vibrato is.....demented!!
I love how catty you are when talking about Norrington. You remind me of my Grandma Lois.
I dated her when we were in high school.
Dave - one of your most brilliant comments/replies, and not about music! @@DavesClassicalGuide
In the munic philhamonie was a list with the worst conductors. First of all 10 names.... Immediately guest orchestras added names.... But every orchestra wrote, there's no doubt nr. 1 is Kurt Masur 😂
On the other hand, I think last years recording of Mozart's violin concertos with Francesca Dego is great, although in my opinion the violinist has a lot to do with it
In violin concertos, they usually do.
I know this is off topic, but would you consider a review of La Traviata?
Thank you. As far as my opinion goes, Traviata hasn't a satisfactory modern recording.
It's very tough piece to talk about it--so many recordings, and, as you said, so many problems, and then there is the issue of cuts and live vs. studio. I'm not sure I have the right approach--it might be better, and Dave Cook suggests, to look at a more detailed written summary.
@@davecook8378 Yes i know. Callas and some more Callas. I love Callas but i had hoped there would be more options.
@@virgilmoojen7853 Carlos Kleiber, Bayerisches Staatsorchester on DG, with Cortrubas, Domingo, and Milnes. Need I say more?
@@TheCastlepoet That is an excellent recommendation, especially since when we say "Callas" we are not really talking about La Traviata, but only about the principal role in La Traviata, never mind the rest of the cast, the conductor, or the orchestra. Cotrubas is excellent too, in her own way, and I agree that if you're looking for a fine modern version, that would likely be the best choice.
His Schütz is truly horrendous too.
His performance on disc of some Mozart symphonies (Stuttgart) was rated best on disc, not by Gramophone critics but by the BBC record review programme about 6 years ago. I liked it too, much better than 'big band Mozart' from Karajan, Bohm etc. and for me it's an alternative to Charles Mackerras Mozart. Again, the BBC critics a few years later voted his Schubert disc of the Unfinished with the LCP the best version on disc ! It too sounds good for me, and although there are many turkeys in his output, and I have heard some poor performances in the box you are reviewing , I don't think he is all bad, but yes there are more misses than hits with him..
I never said he was all bad either--just mostly, and he built his career on a transparently phony claim of "authenticity" that he knew was a farce.
I'll stick with Mackerras, thank you, the fellow who convinces me that the 'modern' orchestra was fine-tuned to fit Mozart and Haydn...or Marriner. Both recognize the desirability of a smaller orchestra with 'modern' instruments.
Norrington analyse the music. He does not have enough spontaneity, and fluidity, and he is is often boring. No vibrato kills the music. But he is always interesting. When he had conducted the Montreal Symphony Orchestra, he had destroyed all the previous works and results done by Dutoit. The MSO had lost all its special and lovable sounds
Many things are interesting. Schizophrenia is interesting. That doesn't mean that it's desirable. Also, Norrington's "interesting" is in fact formulaic--it's the same thing every time and it quickly becomes boring and predictable.
@@DavesClassicalGuide you are funny,
And yes, romantic ORCHESTRA music should be played without vibrato, many sources and even early recordings prove that. The good thing for you David is, that you are surrounded by a community that agrees with all your cynicism.
No there are no sources or early recordings that prove that. You are hallucinating. So sad...
David and fans, I've always felt that listening to Norrington conduct was as much fun as trying to revive a mummy by licking it. 🤤 😋 There's an absolutely awful video of his enigma variations on youtube. watchin him is ALMOST as bad as listening. The string players have a vice like grip on their instruments which doesn't look like any film of any orchestra playing pre world war 2. The listening public cannot thank you enough for calling this spade a Garden Ho' Appreciatively JIM
Norrington more like borrington. The only stuff I really liked from him were his Beethoven cycle and that one disc of Rossini overtures.
you - bought or borrowed it ?! 😉If the first - what a waste of money! The problem with HIP guys is for sure „ideology” and this applies not only to performers but also to listeners.A lot of my friends are HIPsters and belive me - there is no discussion allowed 😉 best! Damian
I bought the set...I believe in keeping insanity where I can see it.
My favorite conductor is William Steinberg. Because I always feel joy when he conducts. His Beethoven symphonies cycle is one of my favorite. ( I have this cycle for at least 30 years) He is never boring. No excessive romantism, metaphysics, or pataphysics. Music and joy. PLease Mr. Hurwitz, do a review of William Steinberg? I know you can learn me a lot about this great conductor greatly appreciated and cherished by Toscanini.
He made the best Hindemith disc ever, and I did review it here th-cam.com/video/TzH54CX5f6I/w-d-xo.html
Steinberg did my favourite Planets Suite with the BPO
@@stuartclarke4683 Yes!