Shoot'n The Poop #2 - Import Vise VA4
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ต.ค. 2024
- Having a look at a 4" Vertex VA4 milling machine vise. Turned out better than expected -- mostly measuring/inspection, nothing complicated.
Audio should be better but I still have a cold, please excuse the sexy-time voice.
The blueing of the plate hit close to home for me. My grandfather was born in 1934 and after the second WW in 1949 he needed to learn a profession. He wanted to become a radio technician for all kinds of communication systems. However this was concidered "womens work" back in the day. So he got an apprenticeship at a local machine shop called Zahnrad Müller. Beeing loacated in Eastern Germany our hometown Leipzig was hit pretty hard by allied bombardement. So my granddad spend his first month shoveling bricks and fixing the machines with the few machinists that returned from war. I remember him telling me a story about him and a fellow apprentice where they would try to fool their teacher by laying on a thick layer of blue onto the surface plate. When he would catch them do it (he did most of the time) he would let them redo the part and after work the needed to clean the blacksmiths shop that was, back then, still a part of the machine shop. They company still exists and he's invited to their christmas parties. He's the last emplye left of his generation and they enjoy listenging to his stories as much as i do. I'm not a machinist but i remember all the things he has taught me about machining and metall when i'm in my shop making knives.
I understand it's been some time since you left your comment but I'm just now stumbling upon this video and comment section. I lost both my grandfather's very young and their stories only survive through word of mouth by my father and I. I wonder if your grandfather would be willing to sit down and record some of his stories with you perhaps on video or audio for folks like me who still enjoy hearing stories from old timers. One of my best friends and I went to a deer camp with his grandfather who is in his mid 80s and I sat around there for a couple days listening to stories from his military service all the way up to him working in a grocery store just a few years ago. Can't get enough of it... anyway I hope this comment finds you and your grandfather well, may you both live long and happy.
"If you own a robot, be sure and take full advantage of it - you know, before the tables turn." Good advice!
He said that before he went to work on the swivel base... yanno, before the table turned...
You know.. I remember watching this video four years ago and just happened upon it again because I'm in the market for a Chineseum Kurtalike and suddenly it's easy to see how far your editing and videos have come. I mean, they were good in 2016, but they are a thousand times better now - kudos to ToT.
Great video Tony! I enjoyed the breakdown and inspection of this vise. I have an 8" Vertex super spacer and have always been pleased with the build quality.
+Abom79 Hey Adam, thanks, and good to have you watching. I have their 8" rotary and it turned out top-notch, too.
Awww this is the first time mr. Abom79 and tot communicated hahahaha just giving y'all shit, love both of y'alls channels, keep up the awesome work
Tested 7 years ago. Happy Birthday vise!
Whoever built this vise is proud of their work.
So much effort to build a robot for disassembly of the vice! Very impressive editing. I'm particularly impressed with the allen key pneumatic rotation for undoing internal hex head bolts. I really appreciate your attention to detail and wonderful humour.
lol your router disassembling your vise was ridiculous, yet oddly entertaining
tony you know i have a deep respect for your work. you are the walking demonstration that knowledge can go with humor (as opposed to use comedy as a tool to hide lack of depth). kudos for you. pete
ps: these numbers for that price, man you are at the end of the rainbow
+thebrokenbone Thanks Pete, I appreciate that.
I was laughing more at the air impact sounds at the hex bolt jaw removal scene than the allusion to AvE :D Needed that this morning, thanks Tony!
Just a little tip I picked up along the way. If you take apart any CD or DVD playing device you can find two small neodymium magnets around the laser lense. They're used to position the focusing assembly. If you set one of those little buggers in that V notch on your measuring device it will hold the bearing in place so you won't have to go chasing it. Oh, and in the future, don't be so blue. You may find that other colors that contrast against the metal a little better. Still love the channel. Bright blessings over the holidays for you and your family.
Alert AvE, shots fired @1:39
ROFL, But it didnt say anything about ICE
Jacob Creedon or someone's uncle lol
I almost peed myself. Lol!
I just about did a spit take when I heard that.
😂 I just caught that he said that in this video. 4 years later
Do I understand correctly that the fixed jaw is leaning towards the moving jaw? Then I wouldnt do anything to it!
Reason? Under clamping pressure the fixed jaw will bend away anyway and get quite straight anyway.
Measuring the movement of the fixed jaw was something that we did during apprenticeship...maybe I should do a video on it ;)
I did scrape in a vice a few years ago - Thats what I call going down a rabbit hole ;) But as we seen again, the Vertex stuff is quite Ok.
Thanks for sharing!
+Stefan Gotteswinter Yes, learning forward, and they do 'straighten out' when tightened. I think you should do a video!
Everyone gets hung up on different things and has their own vises.
@ Stuart Schindler I see what you did there.
For me as a woodworker, this video was completely insane. We woodworkers talk about measurements in scale of 0.1mm at maximum (or minimum)
In aerospace you are talking about .0002in which is probably 0.00X something in metric.
Yeah. Woodworking is funny.
Aerospace? funny.
Try optics. Mirrors and lenses with surface qualities in ranges of nm or < 0,000001 mm ;)
@@TomashPL58 Is that essentially the limit imposed by the molecular structure?
@@HaqqAttak exactly. For some special usage like space exploration, surface finish to a few atoms is extraordinary but common at the same time.
@@HaqqAttak concave telescope mirrors require insane precision. I mean you're talking about 1 micron error over like 10 meters of surface finish.
3:29 Another hypothesis: the factory uses one of those rotating-belt selectable-digit stamps, like they used to use to stamp check-out dates in the back of library books.
Just got exactly the same certificate with the 5" version I've just bought. Had been in the box over 2years
Great video Tony 👍
I have gotten in the habbit of going ahead and liking your videos so in case I forget. I'm horrible at remembering to do so with a short series. After viewing this video in it's entirety I found I have no reason to unlike it. Nice work as usual. I always enjoy your videos and find a sick sort of comfort hearing your voice. Much like watching the evening news with Walter Cronkite. Keep up the good work.
I was just about to pull the trigger on one of these, and had a quick hunt round for reviews and opinions, and it was a very pleasant surprise to find a video from ToT. It was an even more pleasant surprise to see his measured specs. I feel happy going ahead now.
I get my vice as true as possible but always indicate the part. If the spindle isn’t trammed in perfect it will show up on the indicator.
Also on old machines the table has wear from years of stoning. On our EZ-Track we usually mill a pocket to set the part into ensuring perpendicularly.
You got to look for spindle runout as well especially on these old mills.
Vices are good for quick and dirty set up.
Love your videos.
Could that inward cant of the fixed jaw be intentional? As the clamping force increases, the jaw becomes truer. After all, you want the jaw to be true when the workpiece is clamped in place. Not only that, the rise of the "fixed" jaw matches the rise of the moveable jaw.
As you pointed out in STP#1, the needs and economics of a small shop/hobbyist are different than those of a large production shop. Buying an inexpensive vise (or drill press) and tuning it up substitutes some of your time for quite a bit of cash. I believe Randy Richards (In The Shop) did something similar with an inexpensive spindexer. Unless the basic castings are trash (some are) the main differences between cheap and top-of-the-line are in the machining and finishing.
Tony, thank you for saying what I've always wanted to about the word maths. You have quickly become one of my absolute favorite machining/everything else channels. Keep it up!
Thanks Sean!
If you want to be pedantic about it - the Mathematics isn't english at all ... it's ancient greek, and it's about everything - not just numbers - so like it or not - math is a singular - and in this context a bit like bit - a math is part of a single point of data not the whole stream.
English spells colour American says it's color - and it's London and Paris ... not Londonengladnd or Parisfrance.
chamfer is french and should be pronounced SHamfer ... not CHamfer (as in CHip). I could go on and on and on and on ... and on ... but what would be the point?
English is a living language cobbled together from 100s of other languages, just 2 miles down the road people pronounce words different to me ... nobody loses sleep (although 100 years ago Bradford people threw stones at folk fron Halifax).
In english and more to the point language in general ... it's whatever people agree it is - old words drop out and new words are added all the time.
Should have thrown more Redcoats at your little rebellion.
If only to add the word "aluminIum" to the declaration of Independence.
😋
@Roderick storey American: Why do you English call the flashlight a torch? It doesn't have a fire on it.
Englishman: Why do you call it a flashlight? It doesn't flash.
or
Christian man to a Hindu: Why don't you have a special sabbath day for God once a week?
Hindu man: Why do Christians limit God to one day a week?
Sometimes there is more than one way to be right. Oh, and Tony rocks!
I've bought quite a few vertex tools over the years and have found the quality to be good. I've got the 6" x 12" modular vice on my Lagun Mill and I really like it.
1:43 Shots fired at AvE...
i was thinking the same thing!
Great stuff. Much more entertaining than I expected. The clean up with robot was awesome. Also the reference to our good friend AvE.
Gentlemen, Welcome back to the shop!
+phooesnax "just a guy in his wife's sewing room" -- thanks for watching Phoo!
Vertex stuff isn't usually bad, certainly at the better end of 'affordable import' gear.
Hi mate. First and fore most, kudos for your wife, on prioritising a mill for the shop. Clearly she has a good grasp on what is important. I fully agree with your disclaimer, if you expect a $1000. vice for a mere $150 just because it comes from China, than one should have a reality check. I have often said that one buys the raw ingredients, and bring it up to the specification you want or need. I was also very surprised at how well this vice measured, something must be wrong with your marble plate. All 'n' all very happy for you with the results.
+Marcel Timmers Thanks for watching Marcel!
I can remember our Inspection department being considered the most boring placing in the building. Even the people who worked there staid, just a little bumptious, and it would have been torturous to have to listen to them talk about their work. And yet, you made it interesting, which is a pretty neat trick.
That is some quality creativity and video editing. My days always gets better when watching a TOT video!
I know others have already commented about AvEs' outro phrase, "keep your dick in a vice," but I still find it find it fun and cheeky that you'd make a joke about it. I know AvE's Channel has really opened my eyes to this niche of youtube videos, but I find both your channel and his to be very fun to watch. Thanks for the video's and keep it up.
Thanks, and thanks for watch'n!
thanks for taking time to do this. I got feed up with all tool and die guys downplaying them. With this vises and price... I will not cry if something happens and it does happen even to the best machinists. specially on CNC machines. thanks
Great video. I bought the 8" version of your vice a year or so ago. Although I didn't give it the comprehensive analysis you did, I was really pleased with the accuracy when compared to the well used European machine vice that I had been using on my Bridgeport.
This was actually very informative. I do a lot of bench work as I don't have a milling machine and was looking for something to hold smaller parts square while using hand tools. Sounds like a cheap mill vise bolted to the table will do just fine for my hand filing and chiseling. No need to go the extra expense of the high end vises for hand tools.
That vice rocks! Scary precision for the $$!!! I had to watch twice.
I got the 6" Anglock model last week. Really nice - and I agree, seems to be worth the money for sure.
Another excellent video. I have leaned a lot from your quest for precision. Thanks.
+Crivo152 Thanks Crivo!
Who knew? I think I understand why your wife is helping you hunt for a new mill.
Thanks for taking the time to show us you new robot tricks. That was pretty cool!
+Joel L Thanks Joel!
Great video, Tony! You had me laughing out loud on the CNC vise disassembly. That was a well conducted and edited test of the vise, maybe the best shop floor metrology test video I have seen.
+Bob Korves Thanks Bob!
I myself have 4 vices. Smoking, drinking, and wild women.. When the wife found/caught yours truly chasing a 3rd vice vice around the workshop, I was quickly introduced to the 4th vice. She turned into a 200 pound gorilla and showed me where the rubber meets the road. In other words, she put my dinger where ya wouldn't put your finger.. Love both your vijayos. Just different styles towards a similar end. Cheers. K
Thanks for showing how to check a vice. That's really useful for me. I loved the intro and the AvE reference too!
So entertaining and educational, thanks for making these videos. I found your channel couple weeks ago, and have been going through tens of videos since then. I'm glad that I'm just scratching the surface and there is plenty of these left. (I guess that is benefit to joining late to the party). I graduated little over year ago as mechanical engineer (have been drawing blue prints for 2 years now) so these hit me right to the heart. And your humor is just the best, I love it.
Very entertaining video. Loved the comments about the mill and the earwax at the start. Nice to know that you can pick one of these vices up and they won't be too far out of whack for casual work without a lot of massaging. And I hate "maths" too.
+ArtemiaSalina Thanks for watching!
We say "Maths" in the UK, it annoys me when people say "Math" haha. Keep up the good work Tony!
Pisses me off as well lol
@@samrodian919 Grates on me too - but ever heard of the "narcissism of small differences"? Big-Endians versus Little-Endians.
I keep forgetting to not eat or drink when I watch your videos so I don’t blow ham and cheese sandwich across the room!
love the effort you put in to your videos...and appreciate the dry humor. Actual actionable education, as opposed to the bizarre rantings of the other channel to which you reference. I always look forward to your next installment--my favorite machining u-tubes!
+Paul Draine Thanks Paul, appreciate it!
As Gomer Pyle said..."surprise surprise surprise"....I was surprised! Great vid/discussion/instruction....as always!
+outsidescrewball Glad to have you watching Chuck!
I like the idea of having a CNC program for cleaning the mill.
Just remember what old Jack Burton says "It's all in the reflexes".
Your attention to precision is inspiring.
I was given a Yuasa built Kurt. I got it cleaned up, thanks for the how to on measuring. Good stuff, Manerd!!!!
You were BORN to do this! Well, These. Both things. Country AND Western!
4 years late but you also had to factor in the fact that this was checked 3 years before you bought it (2013) so maybe temp differences while stored, pressure from other vices stored on top of it in the warehouse for all those years and a good UPS/USPS "thow treatment" may have been an influence for those minuscule difference that you detected :P
Oh, so THIS was the last episode... Nice!
Hey Tony , nice subject manner, you have inspired me to get out and check my bargain priced vise. Nice explanation of the shortcomings of the finished surfaces.
When you started indicating The Vice that blew my mind I did not think it would be within tolerance like that. Then when you busted out the tenths indicator and that blew my mind more.
I was just as surprised as you.
I too am curious how it would have been with t-nuts locked on to it especially after seeing the bottom
Love the videos. Keep them coming. Also, "Big Trouble in Little China" was one my brothers and my favorite movies growing up.
Excellent video. I like how the Big trouble in little China picture at the end makes it a Kurt vice.
Brilliantly spotted! Missed that one! Tony's da man! ;)
The dissasembly of the vice by your cnc !! Gorgeous
Some of these videos must take ages to make. Love the humor.
Hey Tony...im from the year 2021. Guess what??? You got a new 6" vice!! It's still not a Kurt(because of that W.I.F.E. syndrome you suffer from!) Might want to get that checked out! Anyways...congrats on the new vice!! Cya in 2021!!
Geez, you go to a lot of trouble making your videos. I love your sense of humor and it also comes with some good information. :-)
Keep 'em coming Tony.
I see you posted this a year ago. My experience with Vertex brand is very good quality. When you do get that mill, look at their H/V rotating tables. I have a 12 inch and 6 inch. The worms are very tight tolerance. I like this video, no time wasting music intro. Nice Frank Howarth animations. I'm just now getting into surface plate techniques, thanks.
HOLY CRAP! Our next door neighbor and baby sitter from the UK used to ask every friggin day....."Have you done your maths yet dear?" It made me wanna run head first into the end of an anvil....you know, the pointy Texas longhorn looking end. Not the blunt older brothers favorite survivable end :) Not that I know anything like that....
Oh, and thanks for the info on the surprisingly accurate mill vise!
Have a nice day,
G.
Oh! I'm even happier now, I bought mine six months ago, and has worked wonderfully. ^^
3 years on still going? Mine developed a crack yesterday after less than 3 months of very light work :( I posted a comment with link to picture.
WARNING ON VA4's. I recently got one of these, while squareness and flatness were not a problem it has developed a crack on the base on left hand side, below the fixed jaw,kinda starting where they take the relief grind to allow clearance for removable jaw.Could be a one of(could be a air pocket or inclusion in the casting , who knows?) but INSPECT THIS AREA closely if you get one. Ive not had it super long or done any serious work, my mills not very powerful at all, max 20mm end mill.Only became apparent yesterday, i had been just doing some light surfacing, obviously i clean religiously between moving work so i noticed it as soon as it formed, at first i thought it was a chip.I bought this from a retailer(for reasons like this) rather than direct so i will be returning and getting a replacement.Otherwise i do like the vise a lot. Ive uploaded a pic because hard for me to describe location.
ibb.co/ZLYFk93
Thank's for taking the time to inspect the vise. I just might get one.
1:46 to 2:35 COMEDY GOLD! Thanks mate, you made my day.
I wonder how engineering machinist gets to this level of humor and video-editing😮
I am learning to be a machinist in my old age so nice informative video. Since, I am a mathematician and other notable things, I have to inform you that the English say "maths" while us Americans say "math". The meaning being the same.
At 16:40 the fixed jaw also moves up... the two bolts are low grade and stretching longer. Need grade 8 or better, and need oversize them. .... Heck, I don't know, just a guess.... but I did turn 70 last year. !!
Tony, please keep this stuff coming, it's superb. Regards. Joe.
2:00 Nice Pick-'n'-Place, I especially liked the pneumatic Allen Wrench.
I know, old video, You mightn't ever see that comment, Tony. But I'm rewatching all your old Goodies right now. It's September of 2022 btw.
You had a lot of time on your hands. Love these videos. Both knowledge and entertainment. Lol. Keep em' coming!
The only machining channel I watch that makes me laugh out loud!
+Chris Brent You're laughing *with* me... right? :)
+This Old Tony Mostly...
Should used the squareness indicator set up on end block of the vise while on the surface plate.. You really didn't validate square on the block by itself. The rising of the 1-2-3 block while increasing clamping pressure would be flexing in the base as my guess. It's a very interesting evaluation... Wonder how it compares to better vice.
Thanks for the video seems like a decent vice for my hobby jobs and home-made mill
+Tom Bellus So far so good! Thanks for watching Tom.
Again! - real engineering
I mean, I like "gorilla like" enginuity in keeping costs low and nonsensical jokes but...
this is the kind of engineering that I would like to get in touch more and what I'm looking for.
Hi Tony- Love your channel.
I noticed when you did the squareness measurement of the vise jaws you used a ball bearing as a bumper. I'll have to keep that method in mind. The way I usually measure squareness is to turn around the rod in the surface gauge and used the ball end of the rod as the bumper directly below the indicator tip.
Keep up the great videos - especially the quirky humor.
Thanks Keith.. never thought about the ball end! Only down side I can think of is the ball end will move when you adjust the 'mast' -- but like I said, I'll have to try it and see. Thanks for watching!
That just means you won't have to wind the screw so far, does it not?
Thanks for the vid, I have the 5 inch version and although not measured tolerances I'm happy with clamping and seems to work well. btw they are made in Taiwan :-)
This video is like shooting a paper target with a bazooka. I love it.
Tutti Bene, Alles gut, All great! Keep them coming and Thank you for your efforts and time, all awesome.
Tony, it would be worth closely inspecting the fitment and smoothness of the mating surfaces of the pocket and hemispherical wedge doohickies that drive the moving jaw, incase they're rough and bindy uppy, not pulling down with as much force as they potentially could. I bought a similar 5" (but way lower quality than Vertex), Kurt knock off and thought it could definitely be smoothed and improved underneath.
0:57 I must've watched this video 5 times before but this bit always cracks me up
the best vid i have seen for a long time. Pissed my self by 2:36. well done.
I found exactly same vise (all details match down to bolts, paint and name) at KBC tools. It is branded as "BEMATO" on cardboard box it came in. Looks like BEMATO is an importing company in Detroit. That one is NOT labelled as "VERTEX", no test certificate, but same cardboard box and looks exactly same in all other details. They do say it is made in Taiwan and I believe Vertex is also made in Taiwan.
Got a similar ang lock vice recently, it was warped so badly (spec 1. : 66um error in height)I needed to run run a big end mill over it until it was flat < 3um difference in height. I expected a mill would need a grinding stone for finishing but taking it really slow did wonders regarding in surface finish.. also its mandatory to fix vices with rediculous low feeds to prevent heat being put into it which may cause height differences when cooled down again.
You really do make some wonderful videos, thanks for all the time and effort you put into these... Cheers....
After watching you go through this, you've clearly shown me how much I don't know when it comes to this trade! I really appreciate you taking the time to make these vids and share with us, especially me, what may seem mundane to you, but extremely important to others! Now I can go out and check my vices and see just how good or bad they really are! Thanks again! Oh, and your sense of humor is right at home with me, keep up the snide remarks!!Razor!
+Razor Works Thanks again Razor!
Laughed out loud @ the disassembly!
good quality vises are always tapered to account for the clamping force. Also... good quality vises will always indicate you exactly what kind of torque they're expecting.
Good quality vises would tell you that number in Nm.
So, about the gastric intestinal issues........... where is the video for that? Love the video as always.
Love the videos. I really like when you bring your son into the videos. I look forward to it with my son. Although I got a few years before he can swing a hammer.
+Stacy Tyler Thanks, and thanks for watching.. ps those few years = blink of an eye.
Great vid Tony...lots of info and had me laughing. I was disappointed that you didn't decide to turn it into a scraping project though. I'm looking forward to more videos!
+Kettletrigger I'll do my best to keep them coming!
The old Porkchop Express right at the end!
I was trying to remember if there was a low spot there myself you had my brain working that time great video like all of your videos
Loved the AvE reference!
One of your best videos, Tony.
They're all good. I've learnt so much!
I prefer Vertex vices over most others, as price/quality is very good in my opinion.
I go for the VMP-6, which is more expensive, but also precision ground on all surfaces. And bigger of course.
Love this video Tony. Brilliant work
1:38 - WoW! Very specific instructions!
"Kurt" Russel in "Big trouble in little China" ....Sometimes the slow burners are the best, only took me three years.
Always find Taiwanese gear much more consistent on QC than mainland PRC. Just my experience.
Juan - I saw a report that Taiwan is trying to follow Japan in it's reputation for quality. They are fining companies that don't produce goods up to the very high standards they are shooting for. In the last few years the tooling coming out of Taiwan has been outstanding! Good observation!
Very interesting! Taiwan makes a clone of the Hardinge HLV, too.
Agreed, i've yet to find Taiwanese gear (of the last half a decade) that doesn't either come very close or matches the expectations.
Juan, that's been my experience also and Vertex in particular are consistently excellent quality for the money. They make a huge range too. Taiwan has been the best producer of p.c. components like motherboards for decades. I think they had a bit of economic help from the rest of us like the Koreans with their Kaesong Industrial Region near the North/South border as a diplomatic effort to stop them nuking each other.
One improvement I think could be done to any of these vises is to grind the end of the vise parallel to the keyway and drill and tap two holes parallel to the base surface. Then make a new fixed jaw that bolts to both the top and the end. Also I prefer vices with the fixed jaw in front. IMO they are safer in terms of handling parts. Also if the screw is mounted to the fixed jaw the body of the vise is carrying no addition stress loads. Neither are the fixed jaw mounting screws, The entire clamping load is carried by the 2 jaws and the screw. There are vises made this way. Why they aren't more popular is beyond me.