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We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and not by works so that no man may boast. Good works are just the fruits of a true Christian not something we are saved by.
The simplest way to have this discussion is to define faith. Is it only an internal mental state or is it also an external way of living. Scripture gives evidence that faith is both.
@@ninjason57 An idea proposed by the New Perspective on Paul and folks like Fr Stephen De Young is that the word "faith" is often better translated as "faithfulness", which I think lines up perfectly with what you're saying here.
The discussion is a little more nuanced. Even if faith was taken to be an external way of living, it doesn’t address the basis of our judgement (imputed account of Christ’s works or our own works)
And even more specifically, not necessarily judgement, but even as the basis to begin the work of salvation at all. The fact that God hasn't destroyed the world is proof that he has at least not considered our sins for what they deserve and is regarding Christ as the justification for our salvation. If He has not done this step of initial justification for us, He has no basis to save us, as we are sinners.
"Blessed is the man whom sin God does not impute." That's all justification is. And I have no idea why saying--as Paul does--that this is grasped not by works but by faith gets Catholics and Orthodoxs britches in a bundle.
My understanding as a former Baptist and current inquirer, is that faith and works go together. As a Christian both will be present, you can’t separate them-it is like trying to remove flour from a cake after it’s already baked.
Synergy is the word that is often used to describe what you are hinting at. But if you listen to a lot of Protestant apologists they directly reject anything synergistic. So glad you are inquiring. I was an evangelical for most of my life, and on staff at a church for 15 years. Was recently baptized with my family into The Church.
@ Interesting question/good observation. Not sure I’m knowledgeable or smart enough to make an educated comment on that. It seems like things trend one of those two directions if you don’t have synergism between man and God.
Yes they are both present but only one is the basis for the imputation Paul is talking about in Romans. Only in chapter 12 does Paul finally bring works into it. "Therefore by the mercies of God present yourself a living sacrifice....."
Almost all of Orthodoxy is a both/and rather than a either/or dynamic. Paradoxes are not contradictions, something the modern world has to understand. Just as Christ was fully Human and fully God and not some mingled essence or 50/50 split or diluted like sugar in water. He is that which he is and who he is because he is God. The hypostatic union is a paradox, that does not mean it is contradictory or wrong. It just means that it makes sense in a way which is disanalogous to anything in creation. The heart understands, the mind can't comprehend.
@ No! Christ is whatever you need him to be to make yourself feel better at any given moment. There are no rules. Rules = works! The NT is completly subjective and here to serve us! I have been saved and can boldly sin all I want. I know it! I just know it! That’s what MY Jesus says!
@@freda7961 If my handle wasn't attached to it, I would be left wondering myself. It really is a sad situation. @Contramundum429 is correct. In all honesty I let a moment of frustration get the better of me after hearing someone (elsewhere) preach what amounts to "cosmic New Age Christ". People do this without knowing any better.
I often hear people quote " we are saved by grace" , " we are saved by grace alone". No it doesn't say that! It says *_For by grace are ye saved through faith_* Eph 2:8 . Saved by grace through faith!! Faith Without Works Is Dead- James 2:26 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: - Matt 3:8
I am not sure. Protestant make a distinction between different kind of faiths. If you have the true faith, than works will flow out of it. They just do not make you righteous
It's a parable. Does that have anything to say about justification? Here is another parable which specifically speaks of justification: "The Pharisee stood and began praying this in regard to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, crooked, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. "I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get." [He thanked God for being the reason he was holy] "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to raise his eyes toward heaven, but was beating his chest, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ I tell you, this man went to his house *justified* rather than the other one." [This man was nothing but a sinner and knew it] That is justification by faith alone.
@@hexahexametermeter Yes, BOTH are parables, but I’m still thinking that Christ will judge us on our actions. Our actions prove our sincerity of our faith. Read The Book of James if you want more details.
Apparently the things that our Lord directly commanded us to do and tells us that we will be judged harshly if we don’t do them do not count because one possible interpretation of one thing that St. Paul said, taken out of its broader context, is what we base literally all of our theology on.
The problem is that luther literraly describes faith as a intelectual assentment and denies the virtue of love as necessary: From these effects of faith the adversaries select one, namely, love, and teach that love justifies. Thus it is clearly apparent that they teach only the Law
2 Peter 1:5-8 Peter states to “add to your faith.” If it’s faith alone, why is there a necessity to “add” to it? In fact if we lack the virtues that are mentioned in those verses, Peter states that we are “shortsighted even to blindness.” Besides, there are the clear verses in James that get butchered by the Protestants. I don’t even entertain those silly Reformed doctrines any longer.
How does adding to your faith some how mean you are justified before God by your works? Justification is not the entirety of salvation...or maybe that's what you mistakenly thought with your silly doctrines.
@ I probably shouldn’t have used the word silly. However, the point I was trying to make is that if Sola Fide was a consistent and concurrent doctrine from Apostolic times, it would have been emphasized in the scriptures. Simply put, there is only one place in scripture where “faith alone” is mentioned, and it says the opposite of what Reformed Theology says. Faith, in scripture and patristics, was always taught as an activity to be lived out cultivated as the Apostle Peter states. It’s not just a cerebral expression that James says even the “demons”have. I didn’t mean to offend.
If anyone is on a time crunch, his thesis is laid out at 20:00. The beginning is very beneficial, but its main purpose is to give protestant ideology a fair evaluation.
A lot of what I heard as justification from protestants growing up is that you are justified because Jesus takes the wrath of God upon himself. I don't know how exactly that fits in with what's being explained here, but I guess the idea being that if you get your debt paid off, then you have a clean slate and that makes you righteous. Which makes righteousness more of a lack of bad things, than something that is added or becomes a part of the human.
Yes, but that is only the righteousness part. Sanctification comes also, which is by daily repentance and works done on faith through the working of the Holy Spirit on the deeds that have been prepared by the Father.
Appreciate your content seraphim, hopefully ill be able to do justice & learn well before i conversate with opposing views. A fellow recent convert from protestantism, Godspeed 🙏☦️✝️
I agree that you sufficiently debunk the Evangelical understanding of justification. However, that isn't the Reformed understanding. If you wanna know the Reformed view, Rev. Don Baker explains how UNION WITH CHRIST, which you said, is the gospel. th-cam.com/video/XSPCzT2_jcw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=TVd8TtbOxiFq3pDJ
Thanks, I'll take a look at this! I try to be as constructive as possible when doing videos like this, leaving it up to the viewer as to whether their particular confession agrees with what I'm saying. I only insist that the popular evangelical view is a real one which I'm not misrepresenting (not saying you made that claim). At the end of the day, I very much want to dive deep into Reformation historical theology at some point, but it's not a priority for me at the moment relative to other things I'm working on. Do you think that the view expressed in that video is compatible with the Orthodox and Catholic view?
The way to resolve the appparent conflict between justification by faith and justification by works is to recognize that justification has TWO meanings. The usual one PLUS justify also literally means "to make righteous." In other words, "justify" can speak of the transformation that happens to you when you are born again. The meaning depends on the context. Consider Rom 4:30b. Most Evangelicals have an answer to what 4:30a refers to but 4:30b is more difficult. What does Jesus' resurrection have to do with our being "declared righteous" as some would read it in 4:30b? However, if you read Rom 6 you see what Jesus' death and resurrection accomplishes for us. It both deals with sins and sin nature and it gives us a new, righteous, nature. If we equate what Rom 6 says about what Jesus' resurrection is "for" with Rom 4:30b which says his resurrection is "FOR our justification" we conclude that "justify" in 4:30b refers to being "made righteous" and NOT "declared righteous."
There's no ‘sin nature’-you're delving into Augustinian anthropology. There's sowing and reaping to the flesh-which is sarx in the Greek-that denotes passions and desires which are not of themselves sinful. When you abound in sowing to them beyond that which is against nature is what is sinful. God's laws are physical insofar as they are spiritual. A sin ‘nature’ denotes something characteriological-it has nothing to do with anything substantively physical or something dwelling in you. For instance Paul says nothing dwells in him is good as in his fleshly lusts-because whilst living under the moral law he was not subject to Christ for his fleshly lusts to be held subject to him. Yet through Christ he was able to “..know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.” Phil. 4:12 This is opposite of those who living subject to the flesh because they live according to their own lusts, they cannot suffer need like Paul in order that the Gospel be preached. Christ desires that we live the justified life in Him. Sanctification is living out the justified life subject to Him and a putting away of living according to our passions. Thereby, we grow in the fruits or virtues of the Spirit which are love, joy, peace, endurance, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and lastly self-control. God desires that our joy in Him would be made full-He desires us to live according to His law which can only occur when our fleshly lusts are crucified and our minds are set forth toward other-centeredness approach to living.
I don't do live debates anymore- they aren't really my forte and I think the determination of who "wins" very rarely has to do with the merits of the arguments, especially given limitations of time. In any case, I am happy with the long form medium.
Lutheran here... In Justification works don't matter In Salvation works don't matter Beyond that good works are HIGHLY PRIZED Phil 4:7" I seek the fruit that increases to your credit." All works are recorded. It's not how we view our works but how God views them. Jer 31:16 There is a reward for your work. I think EO would appreciate the order of things. First the doctrine of grace then good works. *All of this is taken or paraphrased from C.F.W. Walther
"In Salvation works don't matter" How do you square that with what the Lord says in the passage on the Sheep and the Goats? Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me...Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
@cyprianperkins Well I'm no Theologian but from my understanding... If faith is a condition for Salvation, then you can merit man the ability to produce faith. I suppose I'm arguing from the standpoint that faith is a gift given from God. God doesn't justify us conditionally. A few ways to receive justification are the Word and Sacraments. In reference to your Bible verse. Just off the cuff, doesn't that refer to the final Judgement. Christs return?
"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Matthew 25:34 You have to be a child of God to inherit the kingdom, we don't become children of God by works but by faith alone.
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 Then why didn’t Christ say that explicitly in this passage? Why does he say that people are separated according to their works? If Christ wanted to teach faith alone, don’t you think He simply could have said that sheep and goats are separated based upon what they believe?
@@jeremyfrost3127 "Why does he say that people are separated according to their works?" The works are just what everybody can see but only God can see our heart, the works show who has a genuine faith and who is a child of God by faith.
@@jeremyfrost3127 The sole fact that the kingdom is inherited refutes the idea that your works determine your inheritance (makes no sense). The inheritance is determined by sonship not by works.
@@jeremyfrost3127 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" Romans 8:1 You have to be in Christ to inherit the kingdom, the final judgement doesn't determine your salvation but the fact that you are in Christ and your name is in the book of life.
Good video, and complex topic. I think this is more or less the Methodist view also; not a surprise considering that Wesley liked the Eastern fathers. On the channel Seedbed, you can see a short playlist called "The Wesleyan order of salvation" which talks about this. Also, how do you get to the conclusion that the final chapters of Revelation dispels universalism? Universalists agree that there is a damnation for some people, after all. However, it might not be eternal.
Because elsewhere in the Scriptures (Matt 25:46) there is a direct parallel between eternal life and eternal punishment. If one were to try to relativize the eternal punishment aspect of this verse, then in keeping with the parallel, the eternal life must also not really be eternal. It is, I think, inescapable.
@@JohnMaximovich-r8x This has been -the- go to-argument since Augustine. Always the first thing that comes up. There have been countless answers to this. For example, the word for punishment there was one which primarily meant corrective punishment. So even if "eternal" is a correct translation, it could mean a correction whose effect is eternal. Also, if I recall correctly, the Bible says that the demons are kept in "eternal" chains in Tartarus..... Until judgment. So even if "eternal" in the Bible means eternal, it doesn't follow that you are eternally stuck in these eternal things. More importantly, the translation "eternal" is in question. Arguably, the word used there could also mean "divine" or "age-long", and the primary meaning of aeonios is "age-long".
@@hermanessences even if divine punishment is not eternal, is it not safer to assume - and teach - that it is eternal? Especially given that it’s a reasonable conclusion from Scripture…
@@jeremyfrost3127 I don't see how it's scripturally more likely to be true than temporary punishment, given the many universalist-like verses in scripture. A side note: even if universalism is true, there could be some form of eternal "punishment" in the form of some sections of Heaven not being accessible to the person. And safer to assume? I don't think so either. Think of all the upsides of this belief. It's easier to convert some people, it makes you more secure in God's love and mercy, etc.
The reason that it's not the more likely interpretation is because a direct parallel is set up between the "eternal" judgment and "eternal" salvation. Even if you say that the judgment is eternal because it has effects which are eternal, the effects you are attributing to it is *salvation*, so everyone ultimately filters into the first group of eternally saved persons. That just doesn't make sense of what the text is saying, and reconciling that kind of language with universalism, in my view, makes language itself incapable of articulating a rejection of universalism: if "some will be lost in eternity" can be interpreted as "everyone will go into eternity and eternity will turn the lost into saved", then no combination of words can even possibly express an intent to reject universalism. The argument that "ainios" is only "age-long" is not a good argument. First, the same word is used to describe eternal salvation in Matthew 25. So if it expresses a temporal limitation for damnation, it expresses the same limitation for salvation and in no way implies that *only* damnation is limited. Second, "aidios" is a quite uncommon word in the New Testament- it is only used twice. So it's not true that if the apostles meant to express a really eternal damnation, then they would have used "aidios", because they rarely use it to express anything and they *do* use ainios to express eternal judgment. This argument is, with all respect, so weak that I think its popularity in universalist literature reflects the genuinely stark hermeneutical bind universalism is in: there just are very few good arguments for it. The reason that Revelation 20 undermines universalism is that it is describing the conclusion of the two paths: one of them attains salvation, the other attains damnation. And that's where the story ends. Universalists want to continue the story on one side- but the New Testament simply doesn't. In order to make the two paths ultimately converge on the same destination, there are countless texts which need to be given a postscript and appendix. It isn't as if the apostles were incapable of doing so- it's that they chose not to. This is why universalism has been such a rare belief in Church History (Ramelli not withstanding- I was not impressed by her book)- it's just very difficult (I would say impossible) to square with the NT.
Here is my understanding of the Protestant perspective: 1) We are born of a sinful nature 2) Because of our nature we will always sin 3) Because we sin we will never be pure enough to enter into God's grace and escape the second death 4) By the sacrifice of Jesus, our sins are atoned for, and by this we are a) forgiven and freed from death (of the second sort) and b) can draw closer to God becoming less sinful. 5) Because of this grace we are more capable of doing good works and we should do good works because they are good (duh). 6) Doing good works further draws us closer to God making us further capable of good. 7) We are never "good enough" without grace through the sacrifice of Jesus.
@@mavericktheace the issue is with assertion no. 1: see Genesis 1-2. It is not our nature that is the issue, it is that we simply do not actually behave according to our nature which God says “is very good”. So when we sin, we are acting subhuman, not human at all.
@@jameschebahtah I would agree with the statement that acting in sin is "subhuman", but the initial "subhuman" act has also infiltrated our nature. In fact, it has infiltrated the cosmos as large. We are not born into a right relationship with God automatically. God told Adam even "the ground is cursed" because of him. Paul says specifically, "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its *slavery* to *corruption* into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now." We are also part of creation. We are in no ways independent from it. We are not born in a neutral state. We too are in a state of "slavery to corruption" and we need to be free into the glory. Even if you dont agree with the theory behind it, in practical terms, none of us are effectively on a neutral level with God: "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Romans 11:32
I do want to thank you for not lumping all Protestants together! 2nd question: If our Justification is based on our works, how will we know when or if we are justified? Here are three statements that I think relate to Justification (Credit C.F.W. Walther) 1. It is God who grants us His grace: it is Christ who acquires it for us: it is the Holy Spirit who imparts it to us through faith. 2. Through our works, are we giving all honor to God or is man taking some of it for himself? 3. The whole world is already justified in Christ, Faith is not the condition under which we are justified but it is the way and means we become partakers of the justification.
I think the phrasing of the question implies that we perform a certain number of works before we are considered just. But that’s not how we approach justification. Justification happens at our baptism - this is the point where we can know objectively that we’ve been justified. Post-baptismal works are works performed in a state of grace, and these works further justify you. So it’s not that we do works in order to get to a state of justification, rather once in a state of justification, we perform works that further justify us.
“How will we know when or if we are justified?” The Eastern phronema rejects any idea of epistemological certitude in matters beyond the natural world in the same sense that it rejects humanistic rationalism. We don’t “know.” We have faith.
Would you concur? Salvation is not like a judge commuting the sentence of a convict and freeing him from prison, so the convict can continue on about his life as usual. Salvation is freeing the prisoner and putting to death the old spirit and putting a new holy spirit inside the convict so he not like the old convict. He is a new creature with a new spirit with the law of God written on his heart, so he becomes like the judge who freed him!
again arguments over distinctions that cannot really be separated or should not be separated. In the purest sense it is faith in Jesus that save us, but this manifested through works that the Holy Spirit provisioned.
We would say that the works bring the faith to perfection and so constitute it as a living, saving faith. In other words, works do not exist *because* the faith is a living faith, the works are constitutive of living faith. I will get into this in more detail in a video looking through James 2 and comparing the different arguments.
The Apostle Paul dealt with this at length in the book of Romans: “being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.” Romans 3:24, 27-28 NKJV “What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.” Romans 4:1-4 NKJV “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,” Romans 4:5 NKJV “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,” Romans 5:1 NKJV “And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.” Romans 11:6 NKJV
St. Paul describes our being judged by works in Romans 2:6-8. In Romans 8:1-4, he describes how we attain final justification: we are born again in Christ, the Spirit lives in us, and by the power of the Spirit we fulfill the "just requirement of the law" (Romans 8:4) so that we "by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body" and thus "live" (Romans 8:13). The question is how we reconcile all of these various texts and make sense of them in an integrated argument. We all have our prooftexts- real, careful reading of Scripture requires more than prooftexting. That's why this is part of a lengthy series and not a one off.
@Seraphim-Hamilton Justification-being declared righteous by faith-is not the same as sanctification-being made perfect/mature in Christ by the Spirit. Justification happens at the moment you are born again. It is freedom from sin’s penalty. Note how it is always referred to in the past tense. No work we do could ever justify us before God or take away our sins. If it were so, then the cross would have been unnecessary. Sanctification is a life-long process and work of the Spirit in the believer. It is freedom from sin’s power. Note how it is always referred to in the present tense. This is where “good works” and our “walk” come into play, meaning our service to Christ and to others. And again, glorification is separate from the above, being the redemption of our bodies, which is still yet future. It is freedom from the presence of sin.
I understand that's your position, but Scripture doesn't use the words in that way. Observe how in 1 Corinthians 6:11, justification and sanctification are coterminous: "but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." One of the points I made in this video was that justification is also described as a future reality (Romans 2:6-8, 2:13). You are mistaken when you say that "sanctified" is always used in the present tense. Actually, it is commonly described as a past reality. One example is the example I just cited in 1 Corinthians 6:11- another is Hebrews 10:29, where we read of the "blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified." The word is there in the aorist, which is the simple past tense. Like "saved", the word itself has past, present, and future dimensions. One of the passages I mentioned above explicitly links our justification with our ongoing process of walking by the Spirit- when St. Paul refers to the "righteousness of the law" being "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the Spirit", he is using the very word from which "justify" is derived. The relationship between justification and sanctification is the subject of another video in this series: th-cam.com/video/pNMnzCZwrxs/w-d-xo.html
31:51 minutes to ignore the grace by which man CAN do good works in Christ as per John 15 ("Without ME, you can do nothing.")... The gift of faith for that justification.
Imputation is accusation, it is seeing a believer as righteous by Jesus, inherent righteousness not righteousness imparted to us, but judicial approval of the believer. Imputation recognises the righteousness of the believer, being declared righteousness due to it being already on the account of the believer, not imparted to the believer, but judged to have righteousness. On this mistake in meaning alone the Reformation is false. I have a Ytube video series 'Myths in so-called Christianity' for NT truth. There is more than one justification, for instance by the Father in baptism, and in final judgement by the Son.
I think I need your help. So there's no orthodox church native to Ireland and don't talk about the catholic church, it's not the same here as America. American catholics are basically catholic evangelicals. Anyway so I grew up nominal Anglican with catholic family also. I believed in Jesus but my walk was sinful and kept getting more sinful. I had an experience where i was convicted of my sin and was lead to Christ. Since then I have lived an increasingly better life and have developed an increasingly closer relationship with Jesus. He has performed great miracles and acts of kindness in my life. I would call those who claim Christ but don't show change at minimum babies in the faith and at worst goats. I look at basically all catholics I know who live deeply sinful lives but seem to think mass and charitable giving balances it out. I need to understand why you think I'm wrong and am going to Hell?
Orthodox Christian here. YT suggested your videos so here I am. I'm sorry, but you cede WAY too much ground about the definition of Justification. No, it is not "being declared just (in a legal sense)" but "being set right" or "set in proper order". This has been covered by numerous priests, most especially recently Fr. Stephen de Young. God's entire arc is to *set things right*. The rub, the true difference, between Protestant (and western in general) and Orthodox theology is not whether a person is internally transformed (there are many protestants who say a person MUST be transformed if justified) but regarding *what* sets things right. Is it being forgiven and not being punished? (protestant) OR is it being SAVED from the power of the demons and the slave-master of sin (Orthodox)? For Orthodox, being set right is broad and all encompassing, and isn't just about "good" vs. "evil". For example, the temple will be "set right again" (Dan 8:14) which is the same hebrew word for "justified". It's not that the temple believed in God and had its sin forgiven so it won't be punished, but it was set right. And so the idea of being "set right" or "set in proper order" is the overall arc of God's work. This is important. It frames and transforms EVERYTHING about how we think of God's actions in the world.
@@olubunmiolumuyiwa He mentions it it feels like at least every three or four podcasts he does. I will try to follow up and see if I can find one focused on this but I'm not sure if there is.
One more note here. Has anyone thought about why the ancient Hebrew leaders who were to set things right through military victory were called " judges"? It doesn't make much sense if you think in terms of pure legal terms, but it does if you see it in terms of their job being to set things right.
It's not ceding ground, as if these are concessions under pressure. This is what I think is in the text, regardless of the function of such categories in a polemical context. But I don't think there really is actually much disagreement here. Romans 5 clearly sets up the categories of "justification" and "condemnation" in opposition to each other, and the Last Judgment is the context for our final justification, so that the setting of justification obviously pertains to the lawcourt- otherwise its setting in the Final Judgment is out of place. Your mistake is that you are leaving legal categories alone and simply trying to separate justification from them. But the real solution is to rethink the meaning of the legal categories in scripture. Take, for example, the temple. The temple is the actual setting of the divine lawcourt, which is what we see in Isaiah 6. It is in the Temple that God sits enthroned as King and Judge. Your last comment underscores that point. Saying that judges aren't to be thought of in legal terms doesn't make sense. Deborah sits and judges cases under a tree in Judges 4. What ought to be done is a reframing of the meaning of legal categories so that all of its aspects are explained. This is what I've worked on doing in preceding videos and in this series as well- the root of our justification is found in the fact that Jesus' resurrection is called "justification." God's word which declares a person to be righteous is the word which actually enacts that which it specifies- He sets things right by speaking His word into them. That's why I don't actually see any daylight between my reading and Fr. DeYoung's reading. I think you've reacted against the use of legal terminology but have screened out things which are in the text. We see in 1 Samuel 7 that part of being a judge was holding court and circulating around the land of Israel. Forgiveness and escaping divine wrath are explicitly there in the text (Romans 5:9 says that we are "saved from the wrath of God" through Christ), as well as in the Fathers, so we want to explain how this arises out of a doctrine of justification which recognizes its transformative aspect. Thanks for the comments!
You specifically made the point in the video that it's a legal term about being declared "righteous in our lives". But that misses the overall picture. Here's what Fr. Stephen wrote in "God is a Man of War", which is also covered in his Whole Counsel of God treatment of Romans 4 (see the 3rd part of Chapter 4, around minute 44): "The Hebrew word generally translated as 'justice' is mishpat, which conveys a realm of space and time where all things exist in their proper place and relationship to one another. Deviations from this state constitute injustice. The commandments of the Torah are intended to prevent such injustices from occurring and also to prescribe correctives for when they do occur. To rectify these injustices and restore the state of justice is to judge (shafat)" (p 17). The point here is it's not about "declaring" or "not declaring" or whether an internal change happens or not. It's a discussion more about "what does the word mean". That's where to start. If one starts with "it's a legal term" (as R.C. Sproul has said in a recording I heard of him) then one misses the point entirely, and all the references to Justice not as punishment per se but putting things in order -- whether the temple being in order, correcting oppression, etc. In this view, mercy is not contrasted (as it often is) with justice, but may in fact be *part* of justice! As for the judges, you're right that they judge cases -- it's not about punishment but about "putting things in order". But their core role in most cases was to liberate Israel/Judah from oppression -- that is, to restore proper order. This also ties neatly to concepts like "sin" or the "gospel" -- "sin" as you know literally means "missing the mark" -- but note that this isn't a statement about "good vs evil" but "missing the target" or "not doing things in the proper way". Likewise, "gospel" or "the good news" was a roman term meant to describe the new "order" that the ruler was establishing.
You do realize that "and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" is a quotation from Isaiah, not from Martin Luther. It's your job to harmonize these, which you did not even attempt. The protestant doctrine you are critiquing at least attempts: it holds that we are able to do good works acceptable in God's sight through the working of Christ in us. But that any good works we attempt to do to justify ourselves, apart from Christ working in us, are but filthy rags. Frankly it's hard to see in these particular points where the orthodox and Protestant positions diverge, except in emphasis. The orthodox position most certainly agrees that the good works of the Saints are in and through Christ. I would think the orthodox position better aligns with the context surrounding the excerpt from Isaiah: that our works in our unclean state are "filthy rags" because we are an unclean thing. But that we are purified in baptism and united to Christ and made a clean thing, most certainly capable of and commanded to good works.
Yes, I know it's from Isaiah. I have a short somewhere on this channel about the passage. Did you watch the whole video? I stated repeatedly that it's part of a series and that this particular video does not square the circle of how we can be saved if judgment is by works, since our works are imperfect. It doesn't ultimately answer the question of how we attain a right verdict at the Last Judgment.
@@Seraphim-Hamilton Thank you for the response. I will be eagerly anticipating the rest of this series and praying God grant you wisdom and discernment in the effort.
I didn't say that the average person needs to know it, but I think that's worth discussing as I don't think it's obviously false. But a better question might be this- if God did not want us to think in complex and subtle ways about Him, why did He give us a complex and subtle Bible that demands a lifetime of study? Scripture itself bears witness that it is difficult to understand (2 Peter 3:15) and calls for meditation "day and night" (Psalm 1:2). So why should we not call the average person to a deeper and richer pursuit of what God's words mean? Why should we think God demands us to strive towards Him in other ways, but *not* with our minds?
@@Seraphim-Hamilton I think American Christianity often uses knowledge or understanding as a crutch for a true, lived faith, and I place myself in this camp. What good is it to know something if, after we pass this life, we no longer possess it? I just think America needs less of this pseudo knowledge of God. We need saints and individuals who live different lives than the rest of the world. Orthodox tradition has always been that the people who bore knowledge and true divine revelation, are those who sold all they had and followed Christ.
I agree, we need less pseudo-knowledge of God. We need more real knowledge of God. We do not need knowledge and understanding as a crutch for faith, but as a buttress of faith. The Orthodox tradition knows of *many* saints who manifested intellectual and academic excellence. Consider, in recent history, St. Dumitru Staniloae the Confessor, who widely published in academic journals, was a professor of theology, and wrote a large work of systematic theology. Or consider St. Basil's teaching on the way young men are to study and use Greek philosophy. Orthodoxy has not historically denigrated the intellectual life, it has only placed it in its appropriate relationship to a life of faith. But many people who say things like "why do we need to know this stuff" are actively rejecting the intellectual life, which is contrary to our tradition. Rejecting study, precision and the like is rejecting a faculty with which God created humanity and which He calls us to utilize unto His glory.
What you are not considering in 9:35, is that the Revelation given to John who was received by Jesus whom the Father revealed, was not a common knowledge to any of the apostles. The coming of Jesus according to Revelation is not the final judgement, it is the first resurrection that only applies to those who have died in Christ and have been born of the Spirit. After the 1000 years, if we are considering this number to be so, the final judgement of everyone else will happen. Those resurrected here will be resurrected mortal and will have to face the second death if their names are not written in the book of life. It is true that we are judged by what we have done and this also will happen at the coming of Jesus, but those who are in Christ have attained immortality and will suffer loss if their works are useless and rewards if their works are of value, the rest, at the Great White throne Judgement, those who were never born again and their names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death, there is no returning from the second death.
Forget “Saved by Faith Alone”! What about “Judged by Works? Matthew 16:27 “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then *he shall reward every man according to his works.”* Romans 2:5-6“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; *Who will render to every man according to his deeds:”* 13 “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, *but the doers of the law shall be justified.”* 2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive *according to what he has done* while he was in the body, whether good or bad. Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before God; and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life (Rev. 3:5); *and the dead were judged by the things that were written in the books, according to their works.* 13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them; *and they were judged each according to his works.*
The biggest difference here between this view and a Lutheran view seems to be based in you viewing good works as being truly OURS, not God's, while from a Lutheran perspective our good works are really works of God, which we participate in. This is because, from the Lutheran perspective, God alone is good as he is Goodness itself, and we only do good as far as we are participating in this Goodness, who is God, and partaking in his divine operations or energies. We can not do any good deed apart from God, and thus we should give God the glory for our good works and not regard them as our own and as something by which we thus can merit justification for ourselves. By claiming the works as our own, from the Lutheran perspective, we are taking what is God's and wrongfully attributing it to ourselves, just as when Eve took what was God's for herself in the garden; we are giving ourselves credit for something that we should give God all the glory for. Once we view good works as participation in the divine energies rather than as something that is our own, by which we can merit our own justification, it makes perfect sense why Paul says that we are justified by faith apart from works, why James says that faith apart from works is dead, why we are commanded to do good works, and why we are said to be judged and rewarded for our works. We are justified - declared righteous - by God's grace, received by faith apart from works, as a free gift because of Christ's atonement. Our own works can not play a part here, as we have no good works which are our own. As having been declared righteous, we are now free to do good and cooperate with the Holy Spirit, who dwells in the regenerate man, in the works he performs in us. If we have true faith we will perform these works, as we will want this union with God and our participation in his operations to grow ever greater. If we do not want to do these works, and disregard our union with God, clearly our faith is dead, and we no longer have the true and living faith which can receive God's justifying grace. This is also, then, why we are judged and rewarded for our works - because we either cooperate with God in his operations and are rewarded for this by an ever closer union with God and an ever increasing deification as we grow more and more like God, or we do not cooperate with God, work against God, and thus place ourselves outside of his justifying grace and outside of his mystical union with us. Good works, then, are important - central - in the life of the Christian. But, from the Lutheran perspective, not because they are ours and because we merit our own justification by them, but because they are God's and because they are the good fruit that follow from God's free gift of justification, apart from works. In good works we participate in the divine energies or operations, which both strengthens our faith, makes our union with God ever closer, and is a taste of salvation already in this life - us in God and God in us, cooperating in the divine operations. So, again, the basic disagreement seems to be if good works are seen as something which come from ourselves, which then show that we ourselves are so good that God "has to" reward us for them. That is, we are not justified because of Christ's merit, but because of our own works. But if good works instead are seen as coming from God, we of course can not regard them as meriting our own justification but instead we give the glory to God. Instead of works making us justified, then, the partaking in the divine and the union with God, which ARE these works in cooperation with the indwelling Spirit of God, themselves are the rewards, and the glory is given to God instead of to ourselves. So neither the change in us nor the works are the cause of our justification - this is God's free gift apart from works, as Paul explicitly says - but they are the fruits of it, through which we are united to God and can grow ever more like him.
I agree with most of what you said, and I do not think that we can put God in a debt by our works, nor do I think our works are "ours" in the sense that they are not constituted by Christ working in us.
@Seraphim-Hamilton right, and if this is the case, our works can't make us righteous, as they are not ours. They are God's - Christ working in us. Christ does not work in the man who is not regenerated, and man is regenerated by God's grace which works in his word and his sacraments and is received by us by faith apart from works. In other words, we do good works because we are regenerated and justified, as Christ works in the regenerate man. Our righteousness - which is a free gift from God - is the cause of our good works, which flow from the living faith which receives God's grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us. Our regeneration and justification, then, is not caused by our works - but the other way around. This is not to say that a true and living faith able to receive God's justifying gift and grace can exist apart from good works - which it can not - but rather to point in what direction what is caused by what, from the Lutheran perspective.
They are ours and they aren't ours, because the "I" who once lived and to whom works were attributed has been crucified with Christ- and a new "I" has risen from the dead, and that "I" is constituted by the life of Christ: "It is no longer *I* who live, but Christ who lives in *me*- and the life *I live* in the flesh *I live* by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me" (Galatians 2:20-21). I will have at least one whole video on the idea of the new selfhood, as I think this is the governing principle in understanding the New Testament concept of salvation.
@@Seraphim-Hamilton right, no longer I, but Christ. He gives the glory for his good works to God, who lives and works in him, and not to himself. This is why he says that his justification is a free gift from God, received by faith apart from works - because it is not Paul, but Christ, who does the good works that Paul does. Paul merely receives Christ in faith and happily participates in his divine operations. The new "I," from the Lutheran perspective, is precisely this recognition that the new man is our identity to the extent that God is living and working in us, while the old man is our own ego, which Paul calls the flesh, which works against God and which we must replace, to the extent that this is possible in this life, with participation in the divine in the mystical union. To the extent that we imagine that we are justified by our own works, then, and not by God's free gift, this is still the old man acting in us, from the Lutheran perspective, trying to appropriate for himself what we should just fall down and give the glory to God for, i.e. the good works that he performs through us, and which are only good to the extent that they are participation in the divine energies. The new "I" is precisely the "I" that gives all the glory to God and does not glorify himself, who thanks God for his free gift rather than tries to incorporate his own deeds into his justification. Man tries to incorporate himself and his own works in his justification only to the extent that he is still the old "I," who still imagines himself meriting something for himself by something that properly belongs to God and not to himself, from this perspective. In the Lutheran view, the new "I" is only thankful for his union with God and for God allowing him to participate in his own divine energies; the old "I" imagines that he is himself meriting his own justification by this divine gift, instead of giving all the glory to God.
"Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16). "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”" (Galatians 3:10-11). "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10).
"Works of the Law" doesn't mean what you think it means. Pick up Matthew Thomas' Oxford thesis "Paul's "Works of the Law" in the Perspective of Second-Century Reception" to see what St. Paul means when he says that. Your understanding, and the Reformers', is a critical miss in understanding of the writings of St. Paul.
If God judges us by our works we will be found wanting- Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:19-23, Romans 6:23, Romans 10:2-4, Ephesians 2:8-9. Brother, please don't let it be up to your own good works. You cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven this way. I want you to experience the fulness of God's glory one day in the future. Our belief is what God sees, that is want he requires. There is no physical action that can influence God's judgement, only the spiritual action of God calling you to Jesus. The Gospel is simple yet you seek to complicate it, brother. Good works are only a fruit of the Spirit, God blesses us with the ability to do good things. The verses that say those seek righteousness will receive eternal life are talking about people who already believe. Belief is a prerequisite for righteousness. Think about it, if one needs to do good to go to heaven what happens if a person is doing good in the Church for a long time but then falls into sin and then dies suddenly, what happens to that person? I already know the Orthodox will say it is up to God. But this is a cop-out. The Orthodox idea is that one needs to die right with God, or is that a Catholic thing? One gets right with God by their works, but that is not what the Bible says, is it? We get right with God by Jesus' works. The Orthodox does not fully trust in the Lord for their salvation. They say it is up to God... but God promises his children eternal life if they merely believe. Why do you not trust in that? Why do you not believe God's promise? Faith is believing but you do not really believe you are going to heaven? A believer should have confidence in the Lord. I know I will be with him in Heaven one day. Do you know this for certain, do you have... faith...? If not, why not?
Friend, I didn't make up the Scriptural passages quoted in this video. It's not "me" who is saying that we are judged by works. It's Scripture. All you've done is ignore the passages I referred to and cited *other* passages. That's not how to engage this issue. I understand the position you are articulating (that good works are a mere fruit which exemplify the presence of saving faith rather than constitutive of saving faith), but I do not believe it is scriptural. For reference, here are the passages I mentioned. The rest of this series will explore all of those texts you detailed as well, which are already discussed in other videos on this channel. “Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:” (Romans 2:6-10, KJV 1900) “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:11-15, KJV 1900) “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:10, KJV 1900)
@@Seraphim-Hamilton Brother, you immediately accuse me of ignoring what you have said while also ignoring what I have said. 😜 These verses you have quoted, they tell us about God's perfect judgement. Everything we have ever done will be held to account, yes this is true. God does not miss anything. But it is Jesus's good works that are counted to us- Romans 4:5. For the faithful, one's works are how God determines how much of a reward we should receive in heaven. These good works are not for salvation but for God's glory and he will reward us accordingly. Also, remember John 6:29- belief is the good work that gets one into God's presence.
You were commenting on *this* video, which is why I object to simply changing the subject to another set of passages. Even so, I said that those texts will be given a full discussion elsewhere in this series and are already discussed in other videos on this channel. For example, in my video "Those Whom He Justified He Glorified", I walk through Romans 1-3 in relation to this question. Did you watch this video? I commented extensively on the idea that all that is being discussed in these texts is "rewards" that are distinct from the idea of salvation. Romans 4:5 does not say that Jesus' good works are accredited to us. It says that *Abraham's faith* was credited as righteousness. That doesn't say that his faith is an instrument by which he passively receives Jesus' alien righteousness, it says that the faith itself is accredited for righteousness. The reason is explained in Hebrews 11, which says that faith is necessary for pleasing God because it is by faith that we trust that God *rewards those who seek Him.* The context of that passage is about our final salvation- the inheritance of the world to come. Take a look at those passages I pointed to above. As you can see, *both* the positive and negative verdict is pronounced on the basis of what the *person* has done. It is not that those who are damned are judged based on their works and believers are judged based on Jesus' works. The text simply never says that. It says, instead, that *both* glory *and* fury is handed out based on what a person has done during this life.
@@Seraphim-Hamilton Before I say anything else I would just like to say that I appreciate you, your time and your willingness to talk to me, thank you 🥰. You are right about Romans 4:5, it does not say exactly what I said it did. But, 2 Corinthian 5:21 supports the idea that Jesus' own righteousness is counted to us. I just assumed it was given that the righteousness of Jesus is how God sees past our sins and grants us entry into heaven. Do object to this? I don't know. I am told that I do not understand Orthodox teachings but I think I have pretty good grasp upon it. In truth, I love the Lord and want to do right by him, so if it turns out that the Orthodox way really is the One True Church I would like to be a part of it. But, form what I have seen there are contradictions between Orthodox doctrine and what is written in the Bible. I am sure you will say that I am misinterpreting Bible verse but that cannot be so and I will tell you why. It is because of the fact that only those who are God's children can understand the Bible in its fullness- John 8:47. I Love God and he loves me, though I may be undeserving. I assure you that I was pretty bad person before God saved me. I have heard the gospels and believed and according to the Bible, God's Word, that is enough. What more need I do to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
Adam sold all of mankind into sin. Jesus redeemed them all. Where sin abounds grace abounds all the more. Everyone is saved. But hardly anyone is living “the way”
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." (Romans chapter 8) Good works are the proof that our faith is real and that the Spirit is performing his work in us. The Spirit provides the assurance that we are 'children of God' and 'heirs with Christ'. "And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him." (1 John chapter 2) It is the Spirit who empowers in us the capacity for deep love and good works, "...for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Philippians chapter 2) This is why we can say that nothing is by effort alone or by personal merit. It is all by the grace of God in the Lord Jesus the Messiah. This is the eternal covenant in his blood (Luke 22:20).
We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and not by works so that no man may boast. Good works are just the fruits of a true Christian not something we are saved by.
It's funny how while the orthodox are so fluent in the imagery of the symbolism of salvation in the old testament, they miss the very explicit image of justification by imputation in the story of Jacob and Esau. Jacob's arms are covered by the skins provided him and he receives the blessing that wasn't intended for him. That didn't make him endowed with all of his fathers possessions immediately, but he was promised them 100% and could not be taken back. This is justification.
@@JohnMaximovich-r8x It's very simple. Who was the proper heir of the blessing? Esau. How did Jacob get the blessing even tho he didn't deserve it? By external covering. Not unlike the animal skins used to replace Adam and Eve's fig leaves. It was Justification. But not by making them righteous. It was salvation enough that God would not condemn them on the spot. It granted them probation. It was in view of the righteousness of Christ and the basis upon which he will make us into the image of His Son.
"For by grace you are saved through FAITHFULNESS". The same Greek word often translated 'faith' (commonly signaling a mental assent of some kind) has always been understood to be "faithfulness", since they are, in fact, the same Greek word. So no, your case isn't closed, it's simply assumed without argument. You can run thru the NT and replace faith with faithfulness almost every single time.
@JohnMaximovich-r8x yes except right after that Paul goes on to specifically clarify that it is "NOT by works, lest any man should boast" It is clearly faith NOT works. You can go throughout the NT and change words to suit your own interpretation, but it will never change the truth of the Gospel: we are saved by FAITH in the Son of God, NOT by our works!! All the work was done by Him on the cross. When it was done, He said "it is finished." Besides, if you knew the true Gospel then you would know that ALL of your best works are as FILTHY RAGS to the Lord. Thank God that I am saved only by faith in Jesus Christ, because of what He did on the cross. If my salvation was up to me I stand condemned already. I am actually genuinely surprised that catholics believe something different. I had no idea you guys didn't even believe in the true Gospel. Sad :(
Friend, we all have our prooftexts. I could just as easily say: “To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,” (Romans 2:7-8, KJV 1900) Case closed. But I won't say that, because this is just not how to do Biblical theology. That's why this isn't a single video. It's part of a lengthy series which is meant to tackle the doctrine of justification from the whole Bible, exploring it in detail. Rest assured, you will see videos which situate Romans 3-4 in the context of St. Paul's entire argument, and I will do the same for Ephesians 2. But to give you an anticipation- Ephesians 2 is all about how God has recreated us as new creatures in Jesus Christ. We were "made alive" with Him and become "His workmanship" (Ephesians 2:10). Our works do nothing because, in a real sense, they are no longer ours. Any works we do unto a right verdict at the Last Judgment are God's working in us through Christ, creating us as new selves. That union with Christ is attained in resting in Him by faith, through the Spirit. The question is whether the ground of our justification on the Last Day is the imputation of Christ's obedience to us or the indwelling of Christ in us through the Spirit. I say it's the latter, the typical evangelical position is the former. This is why it is foolish to boast- we do not self-will unto glory- our old self is crucified with Christ, and the new self who is saved is the creation of God. The works we do are works of the Holy Spirit in us. And God looks at us, and says "that's the *real* you." Or, to put it differently, we are justified by the righteousness of God infused in us through Jesus Christ, not the righteousness of God imputed to us. Hopefully you will keep watching the series and maybe get something out of it. God bless.
@Seraphim-Hamilton no that proof text in NO WAY shows that we are saved by our works!!?? There is NO Scripture that you can point to that says we are saved by works because it is simply FALSE and a false doctrine, easily refuted by Scripture. Scripture is clear: salvation is 100% a gift of God. We are saved by faith in the Son of God, NOT by works. This is the first time I've seen this false doctrine among catholics. I always knew you guys were wrong to bow down to man made images and pray to those who aren't God, but I always assumed you guys had the basic truth of the Gospel. I guess I was wrong. :( Ours is not a gospel of works, but a gospel of grace through faith in the Son of God. All your works are as FILTHY RAGS to Lord. But if you won't listen to the Word of God, I don't expect you to listen to me. Go ahead and put your faith in your works. See how that turns out for you.
But you didn't respond to what I said. The text says it explicitly: that the one who attains eternal life is the one who "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality." You didn't exegete the passage, you just denied that it meant that we are in any way justified by works. Here's another example which is often cited: “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24, KJV 1900) Notice that James does not say that we are justified by faith alone which is then *proved* by works. He says that we are actually *justified* by works and not by faith only. If you think prooftexting is a good way of engaging this issue, then these texts are just as clear as the ones you cited. That's the issue- that we can throw texts at each other all day. This isn't productive to begin with, but I'm especially surprised that you think a good response is to simply deny that the text says what it does without elaborating! What's the use of that? As to the reference to "filthy rags", you have misread that passage. Isaiah 64:6 is not describing the works done in the Christian life- he is describing Israel in her condition of sin and idolatry. Yes, *those* works- sinful works- *are* filthy rags. But Scripture is clear that the works carried out in us through the Holy Spirit are *not* filthy rags. In fact, they are a beautiful garment: “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.” (Revelation 19:8) I understand that you believe that Scripture is simply obvious on this point, but I ask you to consider the possibility that perhaps you have not engaged other positions and are mistaken. We do not believe that our own works save us. We believe that God puts to death the old man in us and creates a new man in us through the Holy Spirit, so that our works are God's work in us (1 Corinthians 15:10). It is all the work of God, but through the renewal of the image of God in us, not by the imputation of an alien righteousness. I have not cited anything but Scripture to you- so to simply accuse me of "not listening to the Word of God" does not really make sense in this context. What we must do, instead of lobbing accusations at each other, is carefully study the *entire* Bible, seeing how all of the parts fit together, not just individual passages here and there.
Your polemic hasn't succeeded. You merely argued that the judgment is a judgment of one's works. But this isn't undermining any premise of the position you are arguing against. Quite to the contrary: the position you are arguing against *hinges* on the final judgment being one of works: that's why the analogy in the clip you played describes Christ's works as being substituted for the pages of "Your Life". The protestant position you are arguing against acknowledges that the final judgment is one of your works (premise 1), that your own record of works would be woefully inadequate (premise 2), that indeed only the perfect and blameless life of Christ would be adequate (premise 2'), and therefore for anyone to be saved the record of Christ's life must be in some miraculous way substituted for their own record of works (conclusion, so the argument goes). I don't hold to this common protestant position, but I'd like an adequate polemic against it, which is why I must point out that you did not succeed here.
No, the position I'm arguing against holds that the saints are judged by the works of Christ on the Last Day and that unbelievers are judged by works. The point is that *we* are also judged by works, which is why I pointed out in each of those passages that both believers and unbelievers stood before the same judgment (there's not a distinct "Great White Throne Judgment" and "Judgment Seat of Christ") and that *both* were given their final destiny on account of them.
@@Seraphim-Hamilton I appear to be speaking past you. The protestant position you are arguing against would affirm this premise: - On the day of final judgment, every man will be judged according to his own works. Both "saved and unsaved" alike. The protestant position goes on to espouse that, by some miracle and mystery beyond our understanding, the sinner's life *becomes* the blameless and spotless life of Christ. Other language can be used: "is substituted for" etc. Invoking the concept of "legal fictions" such as marriage as an analogy that westerners would be familiar with. Or the visual that was provided in this video: tearing out the pages of one book and putting in a copy of the pages of Christ's. It is not that the saved are judged according to Christ's works, and the unsaved are judged according to their own works: everyone brings their own works to the final judgment, except that the saved lay claim to the works of Christ *as their own*. All you seem to have changed in the view you are advocating for is auspicious additions of the word "genuinely". You also believe that the life of Christ becomes the life of the believer, but you just add the word "genuinely". You seem merely caught up on the analogy of "legal fiction", as if it is meant to be taken literally as metaphysics, as if "in the sight of God", to the protestant, means something other than "genuine reality". The crux of the issue in both the protestant position, and the position you stated, is how the believer's record of works is transformed into a satisfactory record: both complete in perfection, and free from any blemish; you seem to even agree with the protestants that *only* Christ's life would satisfy this standard. The protestant position, as stated in the video you presented, doesn't say much more than that it is a "miracle" and a "mystery" as to how this transformation happens, and offers an analogy describing only the effects of this transformation (namely, that we have a hope to be declared righteous at the final judgment) but not the means.
Grace Alone Through Faith Alone In Christ Works Alone For the Glory of God Alone!❤ We are saved By Works, just not our Works! The Works of Jesus Christ on our behalf is what Saves a Believer through Faith in Jesus Christ!
@ “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:4-5 KJV
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We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and not by works so that no man may boast. Good works are just the fruits of a true Christian not something we are saved by.
The simplest way to have this discussion is to define faith. Is it only an internal mental state or is it also an external way of living. Scripture gives evidence that faith is both.
@@ninjason57 An idea proposed by the New Perspective on Paul and folks like Fr Stephen De Young is that the word "faith" is often better translated as "faithfulness", which I think lines up perfectly with what you're saying here.
The discussion is a little more nuanced. Even if faith was taken to be an external way of living, it doesn’t address the basis of our judgement (imputed account of Christ’s works or our own works)
And even more specifically, not necessarily judgement, but even as the basis to begin the work of salvation at all. The fact that God hasn't destroyed the world is proof that he has at least not considered our sins for what they deserve and is regarding Christ as the justification for our salvation. If He has not done this step of initial justification for us, He has no basis to save us, as we are sinners.
"Blessed is the man whom sin God does not impute." That's all justification is. And I have no idea why saying--as Paul does--that this is grasped not by works but by faith gets Catholics and Orthodoxs britches in a bundle.
Luther in the augsburg confession affirmed faith is a assentment of intelect
My understanding as a former Baptist and current inquirer, is that faith and works go together. As a Christian both will be present, you can’t separate them-it is like trying to remove flour from a cake after it’s already baked.
Synergy is the word that is often used to describe what you are hinting at. But if you listen to a lot of Protestant apologists they directly reject anything synergistic.
So glad you are inquiring. I was an evangelical for most of my life, and on staff at a church for 15 years. Was recently baptized with my family into The Church.
@@GuitarJesse7 Would you agree that monergism leads to either pelagianism or determinism?
@ Interesting question/good observation. Not sure I’m knowledgeable or smart enough to make an educated comment on that. It seems like things trend one of those two directions if you don’t have synergism between man and God.
Yes they are both present but only one is the basis for the imputation Paul is talking about in Romans. Only in chapter 12 does Paul finally bring works into it. "Therefore by the mercies of God present yourself a living sacrifice....."
Almost all of Orthodoxy is a both/and rather than a either/or dynamic.
Paradoxes are not contradictions, something the modern world has to understand.
Just as Christ was fully Human and fully God and not some mingled essence or 50/50 split or diluted like sugar in water. He is that which he is and who he is because he is God. The hypostatic union is a paradox, that does not mean it is contradictory or wrong. It just means that it makes sense in a way which is disanalogous to anything in creation. The heart understands, the mind can't comprehend.
Are you saying my declaration of intellectual assent to an ideology didn't count?
It counts if your intellectual ascent to the ideology expresses itself in reality.
@ No! Christ is whatever you need him to be to make yourself feel better at any given moment. There are no rules. Rules = works! The NT is completly subjective and here to serve us! I have been saved and can boldly sin all I want. I know it! I just know it! That’s what MY Jesus says!
@@wjckc79 In the online community, it’s hard to tell if someone is just joking or not. This is a joke, right?
@@freda7961of course. He’s pointing out the absurd by being absurd.
@@freda7961 If my handle wasn't attached to it, I would be left wondering myself. It really is a sad situation. @Contramundum429 is correct. In all honesty I let a moment of frustration get the better of me after hearing someone (elsewhere) preach what amounts to "cosmic New Age Christ". People do this without knowing any better.
I often hear people quote " we are saved by grace" , " we are saved by grace alone". No it doesn't say that! It says *_For by grace are ye saved through faith_* Eph 2:8 . Saved by grace through faith!!
Faith Without Works Is Dead- James 2:26
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: - Matt 3:8
Daily reminder that martin luther invented sola fide and it is by definition a "tradition of men."
Exactly they literally say we follow the traditions of men, meanwhile they literally hold to the man made traditions of martin luther😭
NAH UH PAUL TAUGHT IT REEEEEEE
Most Protestants don’t even understand sola fide, so I’m not surprised if they can’t grasp that.
Good thing St. James refutes Martin Luther.
Right on!
Mathew 25:31 to 25:46 are the verses that refute “Salvation through faith alone.”
I am not sure. Protestant make a distinction between different kind of faiths. If you have the true faith, than works will flow out of it. They just do not make you righteous
It's a parable. Does that have anything to say about justification? Here is another parable which specifically speaks of justification:
"The Pharisee stood and began praying this in regard to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, crooked, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. "I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get."
[He thanked God for being the reason he was holy]
"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to raise his eyes toward heaven, but was beating his chest, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ I tell you, this man went to his house *justified* rather than the other one."
[This man was nothing but a sinner and knew it]
That is justification by faith alone.
@@hexahexametermeter Yes, BOTH are parables, but I’m still thinking that Christ will judge us on our actions. Our actions prove our sincerity of our faith. Read The Book of James if you want more details.
@@HVACSoldier Yes I agree, He will. Can we talk about justification now?
Our works are the proof of our sincerity of our faith. Do we feed the hungry? Do we help the less fortunate?
Apparently the things that our Lord directly commanded us to do and tells us that we will be judged harshly if we don’t do them do not count because one possible interpretation of one thing that St. Paul said, taken out of its broader context, is what we base literally all of our theology on.
The problem is that luther literraly describes faith as a intelectual assentment and denies the virtue of love as necessary:
From these effects of faith the adversaries select one, namely, love,
and teach that love justifies. Thus it is clearly apparent that they
teach only the Law
That image you used in the background of the thumbnail is incredible.
That intro theme and editing was slick!
2 Peter 1:5-8 Peter states to “add to your faith.” If it’s faith alone, why is there a necessity to “add” to it? In fact if we lack the virtues that are mentioned in those verses, Peter states that we are “shortsighted even to blindness.” Besides, there are the clear verses in James that get butchered by the Protestants. I don’t even entertain those silly Reformed doctrines any longer.
How does adding to your faith some how mean you are justified before God by your works? Justification is not the entirety of salvation...or maybe that's what you mistakenly thought with your silly doctrines.
@ I probably shouldn’t have used the word silly. However, the point I was trying to make is that if Sola Fide was a consistent and concurrent doctrine from Apostolic times, it would have been emphasized in the scriptures. Simply put, there is only one place in scripture where “faith alone” is mentioned, and it says the opposite of what Reformed Theology says. Faith, in scripture and patristics, was always taught as an activity to be lived out cultivated as the Apostle Peter states. It’s not just a cerebral expression that James says even the “demons”have. I didn’t mean to offend.
If anyone is on a time crunch, his thesis is laid out at 20:00. The beginning is very beneficial, but its main purpose is to give protestant ideology a fair evaluation.
@@Chris_theHoosier Thank you for your service.
Thank you for all of your content. Absolutely brilliant stuff.
Would love to see you debate some prominent evangelical figure on this, it's so important.
Great video Seraphim! Very well explained. Thank you so much for sharing
A lot of what I heard as justification from protestants growing up is that you are justified because Jesus takes the wrath of God upon himself. I don't know how exactly that fits in with what's being explained here, but I guess the idea being that if you get your debt paid off, then you have a clean slate and that makes you righteous.
Which makes righteousness more of a lack of bad things, than something that is added or becomes a part of the human.
Yes, but that is only the righteousness part. Sanctification comes also, which is by daily repentance and works done on faith through the working of the Holy Spirit on the deeds that have been prepared by the Father.
Correct. Rev 20:12-13. As clear as it gets
@@rhwinner Rev 22:12 also
Please make an effort to dialogue about this with Dr Jordan B Cooper (“Just and Sinner”). 🙏
Jay Dyer already has a video review of Cooper.
@ can’t stand him 🤷
Appreciate your content seraphim, hopefully ill be able to do justice & learn well before i conversate with opposing views. A fellow recent convert from protestantism, Godspeed 🙏☦️✝️
I agree that you sufficiently debunk the Evangelical understanding of justification. However, that isn't the Reformed understanding. If you wanna know the Reformed view, Rev. Don Baker explains how UNION WITH CHRIST, which you said, is the gospel.
th-cam.com/video/XSPCzT2_jcw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=TVd8TtbOxiFq3pDJ
Thanks, I'll take a look at this!
I try to be as constructive as possible when doing videos like this, leaving it up to the viewer as to whether their particular confession agrees with what I'm saying. I only insist that the popular evangelical view is a real one which I'm not misrepresenting (not saying you made that claim). At the end of the day, I very much want to dive deep into Reformation historical theology at some point, but it's not a priority for me at the moment relative to other things I'm working on. Do you think that the view expressed in that video is compatible with the Orthodox and Catholic view?
This was great, thanks.
The way to resolve the appparent conflict between justification by faith and justification by works is to recognize that justification has TWO meanings. The usual one PLUS justify also literally means "to make righteous." In other words, "justify" can speak of the transformation that happens to you when you are born again. The meaning depends on the context. Consider Rom 4:30b. Most Evangelicals have an answer to what 4:30a refers to but 4:30b is more difficult. What does Jesus' resurrection have to do with our being "declared righteous" as some would read it in 4:30b? However, if you read Rom 6 you see what Jesus' death and resurrection accomplishes for us. It both deals with sins and sin nature and it gives us a new, righteous, nature. If we equate what Rom 6 says about what Jesus' resurrection is "for" with Rom 4:30b which says his resurrection is "FOR our justification" we conclude that "justify" in 4:30b refers to being "made righteous" and NOT "declared righteous."
There's no ‘sin nature’-you're delving into Augustinian anthropology. There's sowing and reaping to the flesh-which is sarx in the Greek-that denotes passions and desires which are not of themselves sinful. When you abound in sowing to them beyond that which is against nature is what is sinful. God's laws are physical insofar as they are spiritual. A sin ‘nature’ denotes something characteriological-it has nothing to do with anything substantively physical or something dwelling in you.
For instance Paul says nothing dwells in him is good as in his fleshly lusts-because whilst living under the moral law he was not subject to Christ for his fleshly lusts to be held subject to him. Yet through Christ he was able to “..know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.” Phil. 4:12
This is opposite of those who living subject to the flesh because they live according to their own lusts, they cannot suffer need like Paul in order that the Gospel be preached.
Christ desires that we live the justified life in Him. Sanctification is living out the justified life subject to Him and a putting away of living according to our passions. Thereby, we grow in the fruits or virtues of the Spirit which are love, joy, peace, endurance, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and lastly self-control.
God desires that our joy in Him would be made full-He desires us to live according to His law which can only occur when our fleshly lusts are crucified and our minds are set forth toward other-centeredness approach to living.
@@caleschnell Eph 2:3 "we were, by nature, children of wrath". Rom 5:19 "many were MADE sinners"
Excellent. Ty
With the fear of God, with faith and love, draw near.
Seraphim, would you consider debating Steve Gregg on this topic?
I don't do live debates anymore- they aren't really my forte and I think the determination of who "wins" very rarely has to do with the merits of the arguments, especially given limitations of time. In any case, I am happy with the long form medium.
flawless argument
Lutheran here...
In Justification works don't matter
In Salvation works don't matter
Beyond that good works are HIGHLY PRIZED
Phil 4:7" I seek the fruit that increases to your credit." All works are recorded.
It's not how we view our works but how God views them.
Jer 31:16 There is a reward for your work.
I think EO would appreciate the order of things. First the doctrine of grace then good works.
*All of this is taken or paraphrased from C.F.W. Walther
And are we seriously being judged on sins we repented from ?
"In Salvation works don't matter"
How do you square that with what the Lord says in the passage on the Sheep and the Goats?
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me...Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
@cyprianperkins Well I'm no Theologian but from my understanding...
If faith is a condition for Salvation, then you can merit man the ability to produce faith.
I suppose I'm arguing from the standpoint that faith is a gift given from God. God doesn't justify us conditionally. A few ways to receive justification are the Word and Sacraments.
In reference to your Bible verse. Just off the cuff, doesn't that refer to the final Judgement. Christs return?
"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." Matthew 25:34
You have to be a child of God to inherit the kingdom, we don't become children of God by works but by faith alone.
@@heavenbound7-7-7-7 Then why didn’t Christ say that explicitly in this passage? Why does he say that people are separated according to their works? If Christ wanted to teach faith alone, don’t you think He simply could have said that sheep and goats are separated based upon what they believe?
@@jeremyfrost3127
"Why does he say that people are separated according to their works?"
The works are just what everybody can see but only God can see our heart, the works show who has a genuine faith and who is a child of God by faith.
@ aren’t you putting words in His mouth? That’s not what He said.
@@jeremyfrost3127
The sole fact that the kingdom is inherited refutes the idea that your works determine your inheritance (makes no sense). The inheritance is determined by sonship not by works.
@@jeremyfrost3127
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" Romans 8:1
You have to be in Christ to inherit the kingdom, the final judgement doesn't determine your salvation but the fact that you are in Christ and your name is in the book of life.
Seraphim if you believe in some sort of purification after death what is point on judge by your sins after that ?
Good video, and complex topic. I think this is more or less the Methodist view also; not a surprise considering that Wesley liked the Eastern fathers. On the channel Seedbed, you can see a short playlist called "The Wesleyan order of salvation" which talks about this.
Also, how do you get to the conclusion that the final chapters of Revelation dispels universalism? Universalists agree that there is a damnation for some people, after all. However, it might not be eternal.
Because elsewhere in the Scriptures (Matt 25:46) there is a direct parallel between eternal life and eternal punishment. If one were to try to relativize the eternal punishment aspect of this verse, then in keeping with the parallel, the eternal life must also not really be eternal. It is, I think, inescapable.
@@JohnMaximovich-r8x This has been -the- go to-argument since Augustine. Always the first thing that comes up. There have been countless answers to this. For example, the word for punishment there was one which primarily meant corrective punishment. So even if "eternal" is a correct translation, it could mean a correction whose effect is eternal.
Also, if I recall correctly, the Bible says that the demons are kept in "eternal" chains in Tartarus..... Until judgment. So even if "eternal" in the Bible means eternal, it doesn't follow that you are eternally stuck in these eternal things.
More importantly, the translation "eternal" is in question. Arguably, the word used there could also mean "divine" or "age-long", and the primary meaning of aeonios is "age-long".
@@hermanessences even if divine punishment is not eternal, is it not safer to assume - and teach - that it is eternal? Especially given that it’s a reasonable conclusion from Scripture…
@@jeremyfrost3127 I don't see how it's scripturally more likely to be true than temporary punishment, given the many universalist-like verses in scripture. A side note: even if universalism is true, there could be some form of eternal "punishment" in the form of some sections of Heaven not being accessible to the person.
And safer to assume? I don't think so either. Think of all the upsides of this belief. It's easier to convert some people, it makes you more secure in God's love and mercy, etc.
The reason that it's not the more likely interpretation is because a direct parallel is set up between the "eternal" judgment and "eternal" salvation. Even if you say that the judgment is eternal because it has effects which are eternal, the effects you are attributing to it is *salvation*, so everyone ultimately filters into the first group of eternally saved persons. That just doesn't make sense of what the text is saying, and reconciling that kind of language with universalism, in my view, makes language itself incapable of articulating a rejection of universalism: if "some will be lost in eternity" can be interpreted as "everyone will go into eternity and eternity will turn the lost into saved", then no combination of words can even possibly express an intent to reject universalism.
The argument that "ainios" is only "age-long" is not a good argument. First, the same word is used to describe eternal salvation in Matthew 25. So if it expresses a temporal limitation for damnation, it expresses the same limitation for salvation and in no way implies that *only* damnation is limited. Second, "aidios" is a quite uncommon word in the New Testament- it is only used twice. So it's not true that if the apostles meant to express a really eternal damnation, then they would have used "aidios", because they rarely use it to express anything and they *do* use ainios to express eternal judgment. This argument is, with all respect, so weak that I think its popularity in universalist literature reflects the genuinely stark hermeneutical bind universalism is in: there just are very few good arguments for it.
The reason that Revelation 20 undermines universalism is that it is describing the conclusion of the two paths: one of them attains salvation, the other attains damnation. And that's where the story ends. Universalists want to continue the story on one side- but the New Testament simply doesn't. In order to make the two paths ultimately converge on the same destination, there are countless texts which need to be given a postscript and appendix. It isn't as if the apostles were incapable of doing so- it's that they chose not to. This is why universalism has been such a rare belief in Church History (Ramelli not withstanding- I was not impressed by her book)- it's just very difficult (I would say impossible) to square with the NT.
Here is my understanding of the Protestant perspective:
1) We are born of a sinful nature
2) Because of our nature we will always sin
3) Because we sin we will never be pure enough to enter into God's grace and escape the second death
4) By the sacrifice of Jesus, our sins are atoned for, and by this we are a) forgiven and freed from death (of the second sort) and b) can draw closer to God becoming less sinful.
5) Because of this grace we are more capable of doing good works and we should do good works because they are good (duh).
6) Doing good works further draws us closer to God making us further capable of good.
7) We are never "good enough" without grace through the sacrifice of Jesus.
@@mavericktheace the issue is with assertion no. 1: see Genesis 1-2. It is not our nature that is the issue, it is that we simply do not actually behave according to our nature which God says “is very good”. So when we sin, we are acting subhuman, not human at all.
@@jameschebahtah I would agree with the statement that acting in sin is "subhuman", but the initial "subhuman" act has also infiltrated our nature. In fact, it has infiltrated the cosmos as large. We are not born into a right relationship with God automatically. God told Adam even "the ground is cursed" because of him. Paul says specifically, "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its *slavery* to *corruption* into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."
We are also part of creation. We are in no ways independent from it. We are not born in a neutral state. We too are in a state of "slavery to corruption" and we need to be free into the glory.
Even if you dont agree with the theory behind it, in practical terms, none of us are effectively on a neutral level with God: "For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Romans 11:32
I do want to thank you for not lumping all Protestants together!
2nd question: If our Justification is based on our works, how will we know when or if we are justified?
Here are three statements that I think relate to Justification (Credit C.F.W. Walther)
1. It is God who grants us His grace: it is Christ who acquires it for us: it is the Holy Spirit who imparts it to us through faith.
2. Through our works, are we giving all honor to God or is man taking some of it for himself?
3. The whole world is already justified in Christ, Faith is not the condition under which we are justified but it is the way and means we become partakers of the justification.
I think the phrasing of the question implies that we perform a certain number of works before we are considered just. But that’s not how we approach justification. Justification happens at our baptism - this is the point where we can know objectively that we’ve been justified. Post-baptismal works are works performed in a state of grace, and these works further justify you. So it’s not that we do works in order to get to a state of justification, rather once in a state of justification, we perform works that further justify us.
“How will we know when or if we are justified?” The Eastern phronema rejects any idea of epistemological certitude in matters beyond the natural world in the same sense that it rejects humanistic rationalism. We don’t “know.” We have faith.
Would you concur? Salvation is not like a judge commuting the sentence of a convict and freeing him from prison, so the convict can continue on about his life as usual.
Salvation is freeing the prisoner and putting to death the old spirit and putting a new holy spirit inside the convict so he not like the old convict. He is a new creature with a new spirit with the law of God written on his heart, so he becomes like the judge who freed him!
again arguments over distinctions that cannot really be separated or should not be separated. In the purest sense it is faith in Jesus that save us, but this manifested through works that the Holy Spirit provisioned.
But the works also save, they are not just a manifestation.
That sounds like a distinction
We would say that the works bring the faith to perfection and so constitute it as a living, saving faith. In other words, works do not exist *because* the faith is a living faith, the works are constitutive of living faith. I will get into this in more detail in a video looking through James 2 and comparing the different arguments.
@@midnightwatchman1 anybody can do good works. Not all those who say "Lord Lord...".
You would do very poorly in Christology. Distinction does not mean separation. Unity does not mean mixed.
I don't see why I am judged on sins I stopped to commit for life.
The Apostle Paul dealt with this at length in the book of Romans:
“being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.”
Romans 3:24, 27-28 NKJV
“What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.”
Romans 4:1-4 NKJV
“But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,”
Romans 4:5 NKJV
“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Romans 5:1 NKJV
“And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.”
Romans 11:6 NKJV
St. Paul describes our being judged by works in Romans 2:6-8. In Romans 8:1-4, he describes how we attain final justification: we are born again in Christ, the Spirit lives in us, and by the power of the Spirit we fulfill the "just requirement of the law" (Romans 8:4) so that we "by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body" and thus "live" (Romans 8:13). The question is how we reconcile all of these various texts and make sense of them in an integrated argument. We all have our prooftexts- real, careful reading of Scripture requires more than prooftexting. That's why this is part of a lengthy series and not a one off.
@Seraphim-Hamilton Justification-being declared righteous by faith-is not the same as sanctification-being made perfect/mature in Christ by the Spirit.
Justification happens at the moment you are born again. It is freedom from sin’s penalty. Note how it is always referred to in the past tense. No work we do could ever justify us before God or take away our sins. If it were so, then the cross would have been unnecessary.
Sanctification is a life-long process and work of the Spirit in the believer. It is freedom from sin’s power. Note how it is always referred to in the present tense. This is where “good works” and our “walk” come into play, meaning our service to Christ and to others.
And again, glorification is separate from the above, being the redemption of our bodies, which is still yet future. It is freedom from the presence of sin.
I understand that's your position, but Scripture doesn't use the words in that way. Observe how in 1 Corinthians 6:11, justification and sanctification are coterminous: "but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the Name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." One of the points I made in this video was that justification is also described as a future reality (Romans 2:6-8, 2:13). You are mistaken when you say that "sanctified" is always used in the present tense. Actually, it is commonly described as a past reality. One example is the example I just cited in 1 Corinthians 6:11- another is Hebrews 10:29, where we read of the "blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified." The word is there in the aorist, which is the simple past tense. Like "saved", the word itself has past, present, and future dimensions.
One of the passages I mentioned above explicitly links our justification with our ongoing process of walking by the Spirit- when St. Paul refers to the "righteousness of the law" being "fulfilled in us, who walk not after the Spirit", he is using the very word from which "justify" is derived.
The relationship between justification and sanctification is the subject of another video in this series:
th-cam.com/video/pNMnzCZwrxs/w-d-xo.html
31:51 minutes to ignore the grace by which man CAN do good works in Christ as per John 15 ("Without ME, you can do nothing.")... The gift of faith for that justification.
Imputation is accusation, it is seeing a believer as righteous by Jesus, inherent righteousness not righteousness imparted to us, but judicial approval of the believer.
Imputation recognises the righteousness of the believer, being declared righteousness due to it being already on the account of the believer, not imparted to the believer, but judged to have righteousness.
On this mistake in meaning alone the Reformation is false.
I have a Ytube video series 'Myths in so-called Christianity' for NT truth.
There is more than one justification, for instance by the Father in baptism, and in final judgement by the Son.
I think I need your help. So there's no orthodox church native to Ireland and don't talk about the catholic church, it's not the same here as America. American catholics are basically catholic evangelicals.
Anyway so I grew up nominal Anglican with catholic family also. I believed in Jesus but my walk was sinful and kept getting more sinful. I had an experience where i was convicted of my sin and was lead to Christ. Since then I have lived an increasingly better life and have developed an increasingly closer relationship with Jesus. He has performed great miracles and acts of kindness in my life. I would call those who claim Christ but don't show change at minimum babies in the faith and at worst goats. I look at basically all catholics I know who live deeply sinful lives but seem to think mass and charitable giving balances it out. I need to understand why you think I'm wrong and am going to Hell?
Orthodox Christian here. YT suggested your videos so here I am.
I'm sorry, but you cede WAY too much ground about the definition of Justification.
No, it is not "being declared just (in a legal sense)" but "being set right" or "set in proper order". This has been covered by numerous priests, most especially recently Fr. Stephen de Young.
God's entire arc is to *set things right*. The rub, the true difference, between Protestant (and western in general) and Orthodox theology is not whether a person is internally transformed (there are many protestants who say a person MUST be transformed if justified) but regarding *what* sets things right. Is it being forgiven and not being punished? (protestant) OR is it being SAVED from the power of the demons and the slave-master of sin (Orthodox)?
For Orthodox, being set right is broad and all encompassing, and isn't just about "good" vs. "evil". For example, the temple will be "set right again" (Dan 8:14) which is the same hebrew word for "justified". It's not that the temple believed in God and had its sin forgiven so it won't be punished, but it was set right.
And so the idea of being "set right" or "set in proper order" is the overall arc of God's work. This is important. It frames and transforms EVERYTHING about how we think of God's actions in the world.
Is there any content by Fr Stephen De Young that's talks about this specifically?
@@olubunmiolumuyiwa He mentions it it feels like at least every three or four podcasts he does. I will try to follow up and see if I can find one focused on this but I'm not sure if there is.
One more note here. Has anyone thought about why the ancient Hebrew leaders who were to set things right through military victory were called " judges"? It doesn't make much sense if you think in terms of pure legal terms, but it does if you see it in terms of their job being to set things right.
It's not ceding ground, as if these are concessions under pressure. This is what I think is in the text, regardless of the function of such categories in a polemical context. But I don't think there really is actually much disagreement here. Romans 5 clearly sets up the categories of "justification" and "condemnation" in opposition to each other, and the Last Judgment is the context for our final justification, so that the setting of justification obviously pertains to the lawcourt- otherwise its setting in the Final Judgment is out of place. Your mistake is that you are leaving legal categories alone and simply trying to separate justification from them. But the real solution is to rethink the meaning of the legal categories in scripture. Take, for example, the temple. The temple is the actual setting of the divine lawcourt, which is what we see in Isaiah 6. It is in the Temple that God sits enthroned as King and Judge.
Your last comment underscores that point. Saying that judges aren't to be thought of in legal terms doesn't make sense. Deborah sits and judges cases under a tree in Judges 4. What ought to be done is a reframing of the meaning of legal categories so that all of its aspects are explained. This is what I've worked on doing in preceding videos and in this series as well- the root of our justification is found in the fact that Jesus' resurrection is called "justification." God's word which declares a person to be righteous is the word which actually enacts that which it specifies- He sets things right by speaking His word into them. That's why I don't actually see any daylight between my reading and Fr. DeYoung's reading. I think you've reacted against the use of legal terminology but have screened out things which are in the text. We see in 1 Samuel 7 that part of being a judge was holding court and circulating around the land of Israel.
Forgiveness and escaping divine wrath are explicitly there in the text (Romans 5:9 says that we are "saved from the wrath of God" through Christ), as well as in the Fathers, so we want to explain how this arises out of a doctrine of justification which recognizes its transformative aspect. Thanks for the comments!
You specifically made the point in the video that it's a legal term about being declared "righteous in our lives". But that misses the overall picture.
Here's what Fr. Stephen wrote in "God is a Man of War", which is also covered in his Whole Counsel of God treatment of Romans 4 (see the 3rd part of Chapter 4, around minute 44): "The Hebrew word generally translated as 'justice' is mishpat, which conveys a realm of space and time where all things exist in their proper place and relationship to one another. Deviations from this state constitute injustice. The commandments of the Torah are intended to prevent such injustices from occurring and also to prescribe correctives for when they do occur. To rectify these injustices and restore the state of justice is to judge (shafat)" (p 17).
The point here is it's not about "declaring" or "not declaring" or whether an internal change happens or not. It's a discussion more about "what does the word mean". That's where to start. If one starts with "it's a legal term" (as R.C. Sproul has said in a recording I heard of him) then one misses the point entirely, and all the references to Justice not as punishment per se but putting things in order -- whether the temple being in order, correcting oppression, etc. In this view, mercy is not contrasted (as it often is) with justice, but may in fact be *part* of justice!
As for the judges, you're right that they judge cases -- it's not about punishment but about "putting things in order". But their core role in most cases was to liberate Israel/Judah from oppression -- that is, to restore proper order.
This also ties neatly to concepts like "sin" or the "gospel" -- "sin" as you know literally means "missing the mark" -- but note that this isn't a statement about "good vs evil" but "missing the target" or "not doing things in the proper way". Likewise, "gospel" or "the good news" was a roman term meant to describe the new "order" that the ruler was establishing.
You do realize that "and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" is a quotation from Isaiah, not from Martin Luther.
It's your job to harmonize these, which you did not even attempt. The protestant doctrine you are critiquing at least attempts: it holds that we are able to do good works acceptable in God's sight through the working of Christ in us. But that any good works we attempt to do to justify ourselves, apart from Christ working in us, are but filthy rags. Frankly it's hard to see in these particular points where the orthodox and Protestant positions diverge, except in emphasis. The orthodox position most certainly agrees that the good works of the Saints are in and through Christ.
I would think the orthodox position better aligns with the context surrounding the excerpt from Isaiah: that our works in our unclean state are "filthy rags" because we are an unclean thing. But that we are purified in baptism and united to Christ and made a clean thing, most certainly capable of and commanded to good works.
Yes, I know it's from Isaiah. I have a short somewhere on this channel about the passage. Did you watch the whole video? I stated repeatedly that it's part of a series and that this particular video does not square the circle of how we can be saved if judgment is by works, since our works are imperfect. It doesn't ultimately answer the question of how we attain a right verdict at the Last Judgment.
@@Seraphim-Hamilton Thank you for the response. I will be eagerly anticipating the rest of this series and praying God grant you wisdom and discernment in the effort.
Why does the average person need to know all this theology?
I didn't say that the average person needs to know it, but I think that's worth discussing as I don't think it's obviously false. But a better question might be this- if God did not want us to think in complex and subtle ways about Him, why did He give us a complex and subtle Bible that demands a lifetime of study? Scripture itself bears witness that it is difficult to understand (2 Peter 3:15) and calls for meditation "day and night" (Psalm 1:2). So why should we not call the average person to a deeper and richer pursuit of what God's words mean? Why should we think God demands us to strive towards Him in other ways, but *not* with our minds?
@@Seraphim-Hamilton I think American Christianity often uses knowledge or understanding as a crutch for a true, lived faith, and I place myself in this camp.
What good is it to know something if, after we pass this life, we no longer possess it?
I just think America needs less of this pseudo knowledge of God. We need saints and individuals who live different lives than the rest of the world. Orthodox tradition has always been that the people who bore knowledge and true divine revelation, are those who sold all they had and followed Christ.
I agree, we need less pseudo-knowledge of God. We need more real knowledge of God. We do not need knowledge and understanding as a crutch for faith, but as a buttress of faith. The Orthodox tradition knows of *many* saints who manifested intellectual and academic excellence. Consider, in recent history, St. Dumitru Staniloae the Confessor, who widely published in academic journals, was a professor of theology, and wrote a large work of systematic theology. Or consider St. Basil's teaching on the way young men are to study and use Greek philosophy. Orthodoxy has not historically denigrated the intellectual life, it has only placed it in its appropriate relationship to a life of faith. But many people who say things like "why do we need to know this stuff" are actively rejecting the intellectual life, which is contrary to our tradition. Rejecting study, precision and the like is rejecting a faculty with which God created humanity and which He calls us to utilize unto His glory.
What you are not considering in 9:35, is that the Revelation given to John who was received by Jesus whom the Father revealed, was not a common knowledge to any of the apostles. The coming of Jesus according to Revelation is not the final judgement, it is the first resurrection that only applies to those who have died in Christ and have been born of the Spirit. After the 1000 years, if we are considering this number to be so, the final judgement of everyone else will happen. Those resurrected here will be resurrected mortal and will have to face the second death if their names are not written in the book of life. It is true that we are judged by what we have done and this also will happen at the coming of Jesus, but those who are in Christ have attained immortality and will suffer loss if their works are useless and rewards if their works are of value, the rest, at the Great White throne Judgement, those who were never born again and their names are not written in the book of life will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death, there is no returning from the second death.
Was born and saturated in Protestantism…. It’s the most cringe thing on earth
Forget “Saved by Faith Alone”! What about “Judged by Works?
Matthew 16:27 “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then *he shall reward every man according to his works.”*
Romans 2:5-6“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; *Who will render to every man according to his deeds:”*
13 “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, *but the doers of the law shall be justified.”*
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive *according to what he has done* while he was in the body, whether good or bad.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before God; and the books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the book of life (Rev. 3:5); *and the dead were judged by the things that were written in the books, according to their works.*
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them; *and they were judged each according to his works.*
The biggest difference here between this view and a Lutheran view seems to be based in you viewing good works as being truly OURS, not God's, while from a Lutheran perspective our good works are really works of God, which we participate in. This is because, from the Lutheran perspective, God alone is good as he is Goodness itself, and we only do good as far as we are participating in this Goodness, who is God, and partaking in his divine operations or energies.
We can not do any good deed apart from God, and thus we should give God the glory for our good works and not regard them as our own and as something by which we thus can merit justification for ourselves. By claiming the works as our own, from the Lutheran perspective, we are taking what is God's and wrongfully attributing it to ourselves, just as when Eve took what was God's for herself in the garden; we are giving ourselves credit for something that we should give God all the glory for.
Once we view good works as participation in the divine energies rather than as something that is our own, by which we can merit our own justification, it makes perfect sense why Paul says that we are justified by faith apart from works, why James says that faith apart from works is dead, why we are commanded to do good works, and why we are said to be judged and rewarded for our works.
We are justified - declared righteous - by God's grace, received by faith apart from works, as a free gift because of Christ's atonement. Our own works can not play a part here, as we have no good works which are our own. As having been declared righteous, we are now free to do good and cooperate with the Holy Spirit, who dwells in the regenerate man, in the works he performs in us. If we have true faith we will perform these works, as we will want this union with God and our participation in his operations to grow ever greater. If we do not want to do these works, and disregard our union with God, clearly our faith is dead, and we no longer have the true and living faith which can receive God's justifying grace.
This is also, then, why we are judged and rewarded for our works - because we either cooperate with God in his operations and are rewarded for this by an ever closer union with God and an ever increasing deification as we grow more and more like God, or we do not cooperate with God, work against God, and thus place ourselves outside of his justifying grace and outside of his mystical union with us.
Good works, then, are important - central - in the life of the Christian. But, from the Lutheran perspective, not because they are ours and because we merit our own justification by them, but because they are God's and because they are the good fruit that follow from God's free gift of justification, apart from works. In good works we participate in the divine energies or operations, which both strengthens our faith, makes our union with God ever closer, and is a taste of salvation already in this life - us in God and God in us, cooperating in the divine operations.
So, again, the basic disagreement seems to be if good works are seen as something which come from ourselves, which then show that we ourselves are so good that God "has to" reward us for them. That is, we are not justified because of Christ's merit, but because of our own works. But if good works instead are seen as coming from God, we of course can not regard them as meriting our own justification but instead we give the glory to God. Instead of works making us justified, then, the partaking in the divine and the union with God, which ARE these works in cooperation with the indwelling Spirit of God, themselves are the rewards, and the glory is given to God instead of to ourselves. So neither the change in us nor the works are the cause of our justification - this is God's free gift apart from works, as Paul explicitly says - but they are the fruits of it, through which we are united to God and can grow ever more like him.
I agree with most of what you said, and I do not think that we can put God in a debt by our works, nor do I think our works are "ours" in the sense that they are not constituted by Christ working in us.
Since when do Lutherans have an essence energy distinction?
@Seraphim-Hamilton right, and if this is the case, our works can't make us righteous, as they are not ours. They are God's - Christ working in us. Christ does not work in the man who is not regenerated, and man is regenerated by God's grace which works in his word and his sacraments and is received by us by faith apart from works.
In other words, we do good works because we are regenerated and justified, as Christ works in the regenerate man. Our righteousness - which is a free gift from God - is the cause of our good works, which flow from the living faith which receives God's grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us. Our regeneration and justification, then, is not caused by our works - but the other way around. This is not to say that a true and living faith able to receive God's justifying gift and grace can exist apart from good works - which it can not - but rather to point in what direction what is caused by what, from the Lutheran perspective.
They are ours and they aren't ours, because the "I" who once lived and to whom works were attributed has been crucified with Christ- and a new "I" has risen from the dead, and that "I" is constituted by the life of Christ: "It is no longer *I* who live, but Christ who lives in *me*- and the life *I live* in the flesh *I live* by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me" (Galatians 2:20-21). I will have at least one whole video on the idea of the new selfhood, as I think this is the governing principle in understanding the New Testament concept of salvation.
@@Seraphim-Hamilton right, no longer I, but Christ. He gives the glory for his good works to God, who lives and works in him, and not to himself. This is why he says that his justification is a free gift from God, received by faith apart from works - because it is not Paul, but Christ, who does the good works that Paul does. Paul merely receives Christ in faith and happily participates in his divine operations.
The new "I," from the Lutheran perspective, is precisely this recognition that the new man is our identity to the extent that God is living and working in us, while the old man is our own ego, which Paul calls the flesh, which works against God and which we must replace, to the extent that this is possible in this life, with participation in the divine in the mystical union. To the extent that we imagine that we are justified by our own works, then, and not by God's free gift, this is still the old man acting in us, from the Lutheran perspective, trying to appropriate for himself what we should just fall down and give the glory to God for, i.e. the good works that he performs through us, and which are only good to the extent that they are participation in the divine energies.
The new "I" is precisely the "I" that gives all the glory to God and does not glorify himself, who thanks God for his free gift rather than tries to incorporate his own deeds into his justification. Man tries to incorporate himself and his own works in his justification only to the extent that he is still the old "I," who still imagines himself meriting something for himself by something that properly belongs to God and not to himself, from this perspective.
In the Lutheran view, the new "I" is only thankful for his union with God and for God allowing him to participate in his own divine energies; the old "I" imagines that he is himself meriting his own justification by this divine gift, instead of giving all the glory to God.
"Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified" (Galatians 2:16). "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”" (Galatians 3:10-11). "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10).
"Works of the Law" doesn't mean what you think it means. Pick up Matthew Thomas' Oxford thesis "Paul's "Works of the Law" in the Perspective of Second-Century Reception" to see what St. Paul means when he says that. Your understanding, and the Reformers', is a critical miss in understanding of the writings of St. Paul.
Blasphemy against the holy spirit is never forgiven despite your good works and your own subjective opinion.
And no one knows what this sin is.
@Nola-2000 going by traditions and theological ideas yes
If God judges us by our works we will be found wanting- Isaiah 64:6, Romans 3:19-23, Romans 6:23, Romans 10:2-4, Ephesians 2:8-9. Brother, please don't let it be up to your own good works. You cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven this way. I want you to experience the fulness of God's glory one day in the future. Our belief is what God sees, that is want he requires. There is no physical action that can influence God's judgement, only the spiritual action of God calling you to Jesus. The Gospel is simple yet you seek to complicate it, brother. Good works are only a fruit of the Spirit, God blesses us with the ability to do good things. The verses that say those seek righteousness will receive eternal life are talking about people who already believe. Belief is a prerequisite for righteousness. Think about it, if one needs to do good to go to heaven what happens if a person is doing good in the Church for a long time but then falls into sin and then dies suddenly, what happens to that person? I already know the Orthodox will say it is up to God. But this is a cop-out. The Orthodox idea is that one needs to die right with God, or is that a Catholic thing? One gets right with God by their works, but that is not what the Bible says, is it? We get right with God by Jesus' works. The Orthodox does not fully trust in the Lord for their salvation. They say it is up to God... but God promises his children eternal life if they merely believe. Why do you not trust in that? Why do you not believe God's promise? Faith is believing but you do not really believe you are going to heaven? A believer should have confidence in the Lord. I know I will be with him in Heaven one day. Do you know this for certain, do you have... faith...? If not, why not?
Friend, I didn't make up the Scriptural passages quoted in this video. It's not "me" who is saying that we are judged by works. It's Scripture. All you've done is ignore the passages I referred to and cited *other* passages. That's not how to engage this issue. I understand the position you are articulating (that good works are a mere fruit which exemplify the presence of saving faith rather than constitutive of saving faith), but I do not believe it is scriptural. For reference, here are the passages I mentioned. The rest of this series will explore all of those texts you detailed as well, which are already discussed in other videos on this channel.
“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:” (Romans 2:6-10, KJV 1900)
“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:11-15, KJV 1900)
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.” (2 Corinthians 5:10, KJV 1900)
@@Seraphim-Hamilton Brother, you immediately accuse me of ignoring what you have said while also ignoring what I have said. 😜
These verses you have quoted, they tell us about God's perfect judgement. Everything we have ever done will be held to account, yes this is true. God does not miss anything. But it is Jesus's good works that are counted to us- Romans 4:5. For the faithful, one's works are how God determines how much of a reward we should receive in heaven. These good works are not for salvation but for God's glory and he will reward us accordingly. Also, remember John 6:29- belief is the good work that gets one into God's presence.
You were commenting on *this* video, which is why I object to simply changing the subject to another set of passages. Even so, I said that those texts will be given a full discussion elsewhere in this series and are already discussed in other videos on this channel. For example, in my video "Those Whom He Justified He Glorified", I walk through Romans 1-3 in relation to this question.
Did you watch this video? I commented extensively on the idea that all that is being discussed in these texts is "rewards" that are distinct from the idea of salvation.
Romans 4:5 does not say that Jesus' good works are accredited to us. It says that *Abraham's faith* was credited as righteousness. That doesn't say that his faith is an instrument by which he passively receives Jesus' alien righteousness, it says that the faith itself is accredited for righteousness. The reason is explained in Hebrews 11, which says that faith is necessary for pleasing God because it is by faith that we trust that God *rewards those who seek Him.* The context of that passage is about our final salvation- the inheritance of the world to come.
Take a look at those passages I pointed to above. As you can see, *both* the positive and negative verdict is pronounced on the basis of what the *person* has done. It is not that those who are damned are judged based on their works and believers are judged based on Jesus' works. The text simply never says that. It says, instead, that *both* glory *and* fury is handed out based on what a person has done during this life.
@@Seraphim-Hamilton Before I say anything else I would just like to say that I appreciate you, your time and your willingness to talk to me, thank you 🥰. You are right about Romans 4:5, it does not say exactly what I said it did. But, 2 Corinthian 5:21 supports the idea that Jesus' own righteousness is counted to us. I just assumed it was given that the righteousness of Jesus is how God sees past our sins and grants us entry into heaven. Do object to this? I don't know. I am told that I do not understand Orthodox teachings but I think I have pretty good grasp upon it. In truth, I love the Lord and want to do right by him, so if it turns out that the Orthodox way really is the One True Church I would like to be a part of it. But, form what I have seen there are contradictions between Orthodox doctrine and what is written in the Bible. I am sure you will say that I am misinterpreting Bible verse but that cannot be so and I will tell you why. It is because of the fact that only those who are God's children can understand the Bible in its fullness- John 8:47. I Love God and he loves me, though I may be undeserving. I assure you that I was pretty bad person before God saved me. I have heard the gospels and believed and according to the Bible, God's Word, that is enough. What more need I do to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
Adam sold all of mankind into sin.
Jesus redeemed them all.
Where sin abounds grace abounds all the more.
Everyone is saved.
But hardly anyone is living “the way”
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." (Romans chapter 8)
Good works are the proof that our faith is real and that the Spirit is performing his work in us. The Spirit provides the assurance that we are 'children of God' and 'heirs with Christ'.
"And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him." (1 John chapter 2)
It is the Spirit who empowers in us the capacity for deep love and good works, "...for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Philippians chapter 2)
This is why we can say that nothing is by effort alone or by personal merit. It is all by the grace of God in the Lord Jesus the Messiah. This is the eternal covenant in his blood (Luke 22:20).
We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone and not by works so that no man may boast. Good works are just the fruits of a true Christian not something we are saved by.
It's funny how while the orthodox are so fluent in the imagery of the symbolism of salvation in the old testament, they miss the very explicit image of justification by imputation in the story of Jacob and Esau. Jacob's arms are covered by the skins provided him and he receives the blessing that wasn't intended for him. That didn't make him endowed with all of his fathers possessions immediately, but he was promised them 100% and could not be taken back. This is justification.
1. Can you expand that more? I'm not following.
2. Are you pulling this interpretation from someone in particular? And if so, source?
@@JohnMaximovich-r8x It's very simple. Who was the proper heir of the blessing? Esau. How did Jacob get the blessing even tho he didn't deserve it? By external covering. Not unlike the animal skins used to replace Adam and Eve's fig leaves. It was Justification. But not by making them righteous. It was salvation enough that God would not condemn them on the spot. It granted them probation. It was in view of the righteousness of Christ and the basis upon which he will make us into the image of His Son.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast."
Case closed.
"For by grace you are saved through FAITHFULNESS". The same Greek word often translated 'faith' (commonly signaling a mental assent of some kind) has always been understood to be "faithfulness", since they are, in fact, the same Greek word. So no, your case isn't closed, it's simply assumed without argument.
You can run thru the NT and replace faith with faithfulness almost every single time.
@JohnMaximovich-r8x yes except right after that Paul goes on to specifically clarify that it is "NOT by works, lest any man should boast"
It is clearly faith NOT works.
You can go throughout the NT and change words to suit your own interpretation, but it will never change the truth of the Gospel: we are saved by FAITH in the Son of God, NOT by our works!!
All the work was done by Him on the cross. When it was done, He said "it is finished."
Besides, if you knew the true Gospel then you would know that ALL of your best works are as FILTHY RAGS to the Lord.
Thank God that I am saved only by faith in Jesus Christ, because of what He did on the cross. If my salvation was up to me I stand condemned already.
I am actually genuinely surprised that catholics believe something different. I had no idea you guys didn't even believe in the true Gospel. Sad :(
Friend, we all have our prooftexts. I could just as easily say:
“To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,” (Romans 2:7-8, KJV 1900)
Case closed.
But I won't say that, because this is just not how to do Biblical theology. That's why this isn't a single video. It's part of a lengthy series which is meant to tackle the doctrine of justification from the whole Bible, exploring it in detail. Rest assured, you will see videos which situate Romans 3-4 in the context of St. Paul's entire argument, and I will do the same for Ephesians 2. But to give you an anticipation- Ephesians 2 is all about how God has recreated us as new creatures in Jesus Christ. We were "made alive" with Him and become "His workmanship" (Ephesians 2:10). Our works do nothing because, in a real sense, they are no longer ours. Any works we do unto a right verdict at the Last Judgment are God's working in us through Christ, creating us as new selves. That union with Christ is attained in resting in Him by faith, through the Spirit. The question is whether the ground of our justification on the Last Day is the imputation of Christ's obedience to us or the indwelling of Christ in us through the Spirit. I say it's the latter, the typical evangelical position is the former.
This is why it is foolish to boast- we do not self-will unto glory- our old self is crucified with Christ, and the new self who is saved is the creation of God. The works we do are works of the Holy Spirit in us. And God looks at us, and says "that's the *real* you." Or, to put it differently, we are justified by the righteousness of God infused in us through Jesus Christ, not the righteousness of God imputed to us. Hopefully you will keep watching the series and maybe get something out of it. God bless.
@Seraphim-Hamilton no that proof text in NO WAY shows that we are saved by our works!!??
There is NO Scripture that you can point to that says we are saved by works because it is simply FALSE and a false doctrine, easily refuted by Scripture.
Scripture is clear: salvation is 100% a gift of God. We are saved by faith in the Son of God, NOT by works.
This is the first time I've seen this false doctrine among catholics.
I always knew you guys were wrong to bow down to man made images and pray to those who aren't God, but I always assumed you guys had the basic truth of the Gospel. I guess I was wrong. :(
Ours is not a gospel of works, but a gospel of grace through faith in the Son of God. All your works are as FILTHY RAGS to Lord.
But if you won't listen to the Word of God, I don't expect you to listen to me. Go ahead and put your faith in your works. See how that turns out for you.
But you didn't respond to what I said. The text says it explicitly: that the one who attains eternal life is the one who "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality." You didn't exegete the passage, you just denied that it meant that we are in any way justified by works. Here's another example which is often cited:
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24, KJV 1900)
Notice that James does not say that we are justified by faith alone which is then *proved* by works. He says that we are actually *justified* by works and not by faith only. If you think prooftexting is a good way of engaging this issue, then these texts are just as clear as the ones you cited. That's the issue- that we can throw texts at each other all day. This isn't productive to begin with, but I'm especially surprised that you think a good response is to simply deny that the text says what it does without elaborating! What's the use of that?
As to the reference to "filthy rags", you have misread that passage. Isaiah 64:6 is not describing the works done in the Christian life- he is describing Israel in her condition of sin and idolatry. Yes, *those* works- sinful works- *are* filthy rags. But Scripture is clear that the works carried out in us through the Holy Spirit are *not* filthy rags. In fact, they are a beautiful garment:
“And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.” (Revelation 19:8)
I understand that you believe that Scripture is simply obvious on this point, but I ask you to consider the possibility that perhaps you have not engaged other positions and are mistaken. We do not believe that our own works save us. We believe that God puts to death the old man in us and creates a new man in us through the Holy Spirit, so that our works are God's work in us (1 Corinthians 15:10). It is all the work of God, but through the renewal of the image of God in us, not by the imputation of an alien righteousness. I have not cited anything but Scripture to you- so to simply accuse me of "not listening to the Word of God" does not really make sense in this context. What we must do, instead of lobbing accusations at each other, is carefully study the *entire* Bible, seeing how all of the parts fit together, not just individual passages here and there.
Your polemic hasn't succeeded. You merely argued that the judgment is a judgment of one's works. But this isn't undermining any premise of the position you are arguing against. Quite to the contrary: the position you are arguing against *hinges* on the final judgment being one of works: that's why the analogy in the clip you played describes Christ's works as being substituted for the pages of "Your Life".
The protestant position you are arguing against acknowledges that the final judgment is one of your works (premise 1), that your own record of works would be woefully inadequate (premise 2), that indeed only the perfect and blameless life of Christ would be adequate (premise 2'), and therefore for anyone to be saved the record of Christ's life must be in some miraculous way substituted for their own record of works (conclusion, so the argument goes).
I don't hold to this common protestant position, but I'd like an adequate polemic against it, which is why I must point out that you did not succeed here.
No, the position I'm arguing against holds that the saints are judged by the works of Christ on the Last Day and that unbelievers are judged by works. The point is that *we* are also judged by works, which is why I pointed out in each of those passages that both believers and unbelievers stood before the same judgment (there's not a distinct "Great White Throne Judgment" and "Judgment Seat of Christ") and that *both* were given their final destiny on account of them.
@@Seraphim-Hamilton I appear to be speaking past you.
The protestant position you are arguing against would affirm this premise:
- On the day of final judgment, every man will be judged according to his own works.
Both "saved and unsaved" alike.
The protestant position goes on to espouse that, by some miracle and mystery beyond our understanding, the sinner's life *becomes* the blameless and spotless life of Christ. Other language can be used: "is substituted for" etc. Invoking the concept of "legal fictions" such as marriage as an analogy that westerners would be familiar with. Or the visual that was provided in this video: tearing out the pages of one book and putting in a copy of the pages of Christ's.
It is not that the saved are judged according to Christ's works, and the unsaved are judged according to their own works: everyone brings their own works to the final judgment, except that the saved lay claim to the works of Christ *as their own*.
All you seem to have changed in the view you are advocating for is auspicious additions of the word "genuinely". You also believe that the life of Christ becomes the life of the believer, but you just add the word "genuinely". You seem merely caught up on the analogy of "legal fiction", as if it is meant to be taken literally as metaphysics, as if "in the sight of God", to the protestant, means something other than "genuine reality".
The crux of the issue in both the protestant position, and the position you stated, is how the believer's record of works is transformed into a satisfactory record: both complete in perfection, and free from any blemish; you seem to even agree with the protestants that *only* Christ's life would satisfy this standard. The protestant position, as stated in the video you presented, doesn't say much more than that it is a "miracle" and a "mystery" as to how this transformation happens, and offers an analogy describing only the effects of this transformation (namely, that we have a hope to be declared righteous at the final judgment) but not the means.
Grace Alone Through Faith Alone In Christ Works Alone For the Glory of God Alone!❤ We are saved By Works, just not our Works! The Works of Jesus Christ on our behalf is what Saves a Believer through Faith in Jesus Christ!
Exactly the point made in John. "What must we do to do the works of God?"
Jesus: "Wrong direction: The work of GOD is when you believe!"
@ “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Romans 4:4-5 KJV
Thank goodness we're all here to complete the work Jesus left unfinished on the cross. 🙄
Did you watch the whole video?
Where on earth did you get that idea..?