By the way, when I say Michael treats Pam like royalty, I don't mean to say that he is respectful to her. I simply mean that he holds her in very high regard. Like a celebrity. I'm not saying he treats her appropriately. Obviously he's an idiot. I'm just saying, he looks up to both Pam and Jim like idols. Michael obviously looks up to Pam and Jim. Michael is a very bad man on the surface, but he has a good heart. Also, to make this video, I watched every episode back to back, so I tried as much as possible to keep everything in context. Absolutely nothing I said should be out of context. I was very careful about this. The first season of the office is six episodes, not ten. The title of the video is hyperbolic and meant to be funny. Thank you
great analysis man. I do think Pam is right to think that she's better than Michael, since Michael sexually harasses her all the time, but she should recognize that he has a good heart, is the best sales person in the entire company and says those things not because he's deranged, but because he's a genuinely an idiot at social situations. And she should know that the only reason she has a job there is because he lets her coast, so to let him get into a relationship with Jan and let him go into financial ruin because she wanted him to be in a good mood for her review is truly evil. She could have waited a day and tell him the truth, but she let him suffer. She's a terrible person. And how do you fail an intro course for art lol. It's sad. I've passed intro courses for art and I can barely draw a stick figure. You just try, attend class and do the assignments. That's all. She must have not participated. She's a loser not because she's dumb, she's a loser because she doesn't try or care about anything. The only thing she cares about is not changing (like most people).
I feel like Michael is such a complicated character. If you ask me he's clearly mentally underdeveloped, but the show never explores that so I guess he's just supposed to be weird/awkward. So I guess that all we're left with is that you should look at how someone treats their inferiors (socially in this case), and not how they treat their equals/superiors (which is how Michael perceives Pam & Jim socially). But I would say that Michael goes through a lot of shit, much of it is by his own making, and goes from being a bad person to a good/normal one, by the end of the show.
It's not hard to see why Michael treated Dwight like shit, because the way Michael functions is either he is obsessed with people or he profusely dislikes them. He dislikes Dwight so no matter what Dwight does he still treats him like shit. Conversely, he adores Ryan, so no matter how shitty Ryan treats him Michael still loves him. That's just his character. However, he has a lot of growth during his absence in the final seasons and turns up to be Dwight's best man, finally making it up to him and making things right. That's also when he grows enough to know when not to make it about him, and even though Ryan is at the wedding he doesn't talk about him, he is just proud to be there and watch his "children".
Yeah, that's very true. But there's a difference between being a flawed person and being a bad person. I think all the characters are majorly flawed, as am I and literally everyone else IRL. But I believe that Pam is actually a bad person in a way that few other characters are, save Ryan maybe. At least characters like Michael and Dwight make some attempt to reconcile their bad behavior, and we can clearly see them both mature and reflect on the past, something that Pam never does. At least not in a truly impactful way.
@@congratsbro. but wouldn't you make the same excuse fro Pam? She is a flawed woman that was in a bad relationship and had very low self.steem, her stagnation makes her assertive self appear more selfish because she repressed herself for so long. If we conclude that criminals, cheaters, corrupt bosses, narcissists, sexual deviants or people who sexually harass at the work place (almost every person/men in the office) are "flawed people" then why say that Pam is any worse? I mean Michael and almost every male on the show are very misogynistic towards the women of the show and never actually address it (I get it, different times). The point being that most of these people are selfish who learn to be better. I think some people see Pam and Jim as "bad people" because they are the least caricatured characters of the show, thus making their flaws more "real" to the audience. Idk if you watch My Hero Academia but a good example can be how a lot of people hate Endeavor more than the actual villains of the story. And Pam does have a character arc that acknowledges these flaws, The Take's videos are very good in that regard.
@@yllowturtl Pam is hated because she is weak. People tend to prefer strong villains instead of weak one. Weakness is NEVER forgotten by the crowd and as a weak person I know it first hand. If you're weak if you're not perfect morally to compensate then everybody's coming at you.
@@madameproblemes6548 but Pam isn't a villain tf? I don want to call anyone sexist but it is odd to me how many "Why (Insert female lead) is the worst character on tv" videos are out there, is almost as if the bar for female leads to be perfect is higher than male ones. Take Jim for example, you could make a very similar case on why he is the worst, he thinks he is better than everyone else, he bullies Dwight and he hurts like 3 women because eh can't be honest about Pam. Or hell, even Michael... dude is selfish, liar, sexist and doesn't use well his power. Not to mention how insensitive he is with HR and Toby for no reason. Of course I don't believe neither of these 3 are the worst but it seems odd to me how many people focus on Pam's flaws compared to other lead characters.
@@yllowturtl Yes I agree. I mean she is depicted as a villain with all this Pam hatred. People being particularly hard on her I think it's because she can never show results or was able to acheive anything on her own so she is treated even harsher than other women in the show :/ When a character doesn't acheive anything it's like it triggers something in people to be even harsher towards this character 😬
“Michael treats her like a queen” I get some of it, but he objectifies her on multiple occasions ?? He also puts her in awkward positions that have nothing to do with her. He’s not exactly a gem lol
He makes sexist comments on her, makes her do tasks, that are clearly not her job and even fake fires her in the first episode. I guess this guy thinks sexual harrassment is "queen treatment".
I completely agree. I actually think Jim was a bit more of an asshole than Pam was, but Michael definitely didn't treat her as amazingly as he makes it sound like and I don't think she is a "psychopath", sociopath or narcissist. Also, Pam didn't think Jim was cheating on her. She knew it wasn't that, actually, it was Nelly who was convinced that he the thing that he was keeping from her was that he was cheating. Pam didn't get upset because of Karen and Jim moving in together, she be helped him look for an apartment for Karen after she convinced him that he was overreacting about Karen moving into a place down the street from him, which he was. She was upset after doing that and in Karen thanking her for helping because she was obviously in love with him and was hard for her- just like it was hard for him to see Pam and Roy together. A few more parts were not accurate and seemed like he just didn't understand what was happening in the episode, but I can't remember what they were and don't feel like rewatching it. Yeah, I've seen the series too many times.
I'm pretty sure the volleyball thing was just a mistake by the writers. I've seen a video about some of the plot holes and mistakes, but anyways, how does lying about skipping out on something make you a pathological liar? How many people can say they never missed school or anything because they faked being sick before?
It doesn't make you a pathological liar, he forgot that lying has to be frequent and often unnecessary. But if she skipped the majority of those classes then I would say she leans more towards that sort of mental disorder than she does so a normal kid not feeling like going to school. The issue is the frequency of it, I'm assuming because she was "good enough not to practice." If you combined that with the other instances of lying and manipulative behavior that creates a long stringing pattern of these types of behaviors that she not only became better at but grew into as she aged
as someone thats been around a person diagnosed with narcissism and martyr syndrome, its obvious to me what kind of person michael is and that his little 'gifts' are with the expectation of something in return. michael is a creepy guy, i'm sorry to burst your bubble but he is, especially the first season. he often flirts with pam in a really uncomfortable way and she has every right to look down on him for it. he doesnt deserve graditude for something no one asked you to do. you do that kind of thing because its nice to do, not to force a sense of graditude.
I never look at Michaels first season as a part of his character. They wrote him to be David Brent, not Micheal Scott. It’s only in season 2 onwards where they write him to be the goofball he becomes. Almost like a character rett-con
The critique of the second episode... ooou she defaced company property... ooh she said it wasn't her... obviously never had a job at a big company before
Not only is she allowed to not like him, shes allowed to hate him. He treats her terribly under the guise of kindness. Her insults her and sexualizes her every chance he gets.
I don't like Pam either, but watching the first 15 minutes of the video I desagreed with everything. Pam lying when she was a teen to not go to gym class. What? Is there anyone alive who never lied sickness to skip school? And is there anyone who lied and after adulthood regreted deeply those white lies? Pathological liar because of this? Everyone lied to Michael about the Jan call, but it is Pam's lie about a call that had no meaning the real reason for Michael to get together with Jan? What? Michael made her cry because of his "prank" of firing her. but she is the devil for writing something that could be easily washed away. Anf of course she would complain to Michael about the toilet, he is the boss, it is his job. Roy and Pam were bad together, it was easy for her to move on from him when she compared the way she was treated by him with the way she was teated by Jim. Roy, in only one episode, showed how different he is when he gives a crap. And I bet that if he met someone who sparkled that on him after their break-up, he would have moved on faster. Pam was negleted before meeting Jim (he forgot her on their first date, wtf), that's why they had this emotional affair (it's not cool, but Roy thanked Jim for this once saying that he didn't want to deal with Pam's emotions and thoughts and was glad that she had someone to do this really important relationship stuff). Pam could have lied for Dwight, but so could he. She talked to Angela and made her feel guilty about not telling the truth to Michael, to me this is "doing something". I guess she reacted that way to Angela and Dwight's relationship because everyone would: she is a christian who judges openly every woman based on their their clothes and personal lives, just to have sex before marriage in someone's party. And Dwight for the way that he treated people in general, it is difficult to see how someone would bone him in the first few seasons haha. Jim was an adult investing in someone engaged, she took advantage of him as much as he took it of her in this emotional affair. No victims here. I mean, those are pretty "normal" flaws, it doesn't make a person bad. She was shitty for a bunch of other reasons, though, that I guess I will see on the rest of the video
In the beginning I think Pam was just so emotionally broken down because of Roy so she does everything she can to try and feel happy again. I’m not saying the attempts were okay but it’s more understandable especially when it’s implied that Roy was abusive. I can’t help but feel bad for her, and was proud of her when she started putting her own feelings first
This is my thoughts exactly. It's not okay to hurt people due to your trauma, but 90% of the negative things he pointed out were obviously trauma responses due to dealing with a narcissistic boss and an abusive partner.
@Jrt8027 I’ll just list a few things that stood out to me: -Valentine’s Day when he did nothing for her and put his own s3xual desires first, saying that that’s her Valentine’s Day gift -When they were at the Dundies awards at Chili’s, and because HE was bored and she didn’t want to leave, he tried dragging her to his car -when she confessed to kissing Jim on casino night, he screamed at her, and directed his need to get physical towards the bar that they were in, and began smashing bottles in the direction of the bartender and busting the chairs. It doesn’t show him directly striking her, but it is heavily implied that things happened behind closed doors whenever he was angry or drinking. Up until she left Roy, she was terrified of speaking her mind and defending herself, another tell tale sign. If you end up rewatching the series, really focus on the body language when they’re together
I think you raise a few good points, like Roy’s doubt in Pam’s follow-through being accurate, but a lot of this seems based on assumption. And while I agree that Pam has a lot of issues that often leave her unlikeable, these reaches weaken your argument. Like when Phyllis tells Pam she can’t just give all of the clients to Jim, you assumed Pam actually did it, which yes, would be a fireable offense, but they never establish truth to this comment, and Phyllis is known to disarmingly catty at times (you got a lot to learn about this town, sweetie). Also, as a former teenage girl who sometimes used to lie to get out of PE when she “just didn’t feel like it,” I can confirm that yes, we are all master manipulators and pathological liars. And Pam not saying anything when Dwight got fired made her a selfish bitch, but we’re not gonna talk about the time Michael tried to make Dwight take the fall for his golden ticket idea?? Only to take credit when he’s praised for it???? I’m sorry, but you lost all credibility when you wrote off Michael as a good person. I love watching his antics but, absolutely not.
Yes on the Phyllis thing, that’s exactly what I was thinking. I feel like, since that line was specifically portrayed as rude by the writing in the scene, that is evidence that goes AGAINST the idea that Pam was giving all the new leads to Jim, meaning the comment was rude because Phyllis just assumed that’s something Pam would do without evidence
Pam can be awful, but really, everyone on that show can be awful. It seems like Erin was the only one with fairly innocent, good-natured personality. I don't recall Meredith being particularly terrible either, just a little on the gross side.
Yeah I agree, and I tried to highlight that in the video and show that im not just singling out Pam. But MY GOD pam is bad. Not one other character even comes close to the level of lying, fraud and manipulation that Pams on. Its actually sickening after a while when you really pay attention to what she does throughout the series. Shes a truly bad person.
@@VirginPrince Yeah definitely in the earlier seasons especially, but I really feel that Angela lightens up a lot towards the end while Pam just increasingly gets worse and worse. But I do agree with you that Angela is pretty bad as well.
@@VirginPrince I think that was the main joke was that hes just the classic nice guy who gets crapped on for no reason at all. Michael hated him because he enforced all the HR stuff, but otherwise there was really no reason why his life should have been so terrible. Sort of a sad clown of a character.
19:00 I get where you are coming from but this is dangerous territory. Many people (males mostly) expect to be rewarded for buying or doing something for their significant other (in other cases the other is just a crush) but things should not be like that. You make actions for love not because you expect something in return. You just don't demand or should'nt feel entitled of something just because you did something nice. In this particular case Pam is right. people shouldn't expect her to be happy just because "Oh WOW HER HUSBAND BOUGHT HER A HOUSE, WHY IS SHE COMPLAINING, WHAT" They are in a relationship. This type of things should be at least discussed and not be like " I BOUGHT YOU X WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING". Hope I made clear my point. Lots of love. Pd: I hate pam too lol
@@johnnysake8052 i get its a big decision to get a house but at the same time its like she didnt have to resent him for it she could have just peacefully and like an adult talk it out with jim he even admitted in the episode that he knew it was a risky choice and they could probably have talked it out but instead she decided to not say anything then blow up on jim later on imo thats preaty shitty
@@fab5haus Okay but, let's take this in real context. If your fiancee/spouse is considering buying a house for you... WHERE THE FUCK IS HE GETTING THE MONEY? One would assume it's coming out of a joint checking around, or at least coming out of expenses that should be discussed TOGETHER like a team. The idea behind the gesture was sweet, but her problem with him wasn't that he bought the house. The problem was him doing such huge things that affected BOTH of them without consulting her - i.e. the house and the new business. It wouldn't fucking matter if it was a house, a car, or a god damn pool. If a couple work together to have financial stability, both parties need to be aware of where the funds are going. It's about respect.
How much of a main character syndrome type of person can you be? Yes, it is entirely reasonable that when someone buys/does something extremely nice for you, that they expect gratitude or even a return of the same effort. To think you don't have to show those things in return is insane thinking
I can sympathise with Pam when Michael starts dating her mum. I could not easily handle someone I despise, dating my mum. I love Michael, I see his intentions are often pure, but if he was screwing my mum, I’d probably do worse than just scream in a parking lot and be a nuisance at work.
well he did save her job and got her paid a season before so...i like how pam accepts it then mike is the one who breaks it up for petty reasons when she finally is into it lol and that makes her even more mad..subverted our expectations heavily
This idea of Pam being a bad person hinges on her being totally clear-minded and sensical. But how many people are really like that?? She is deluded, fearful, and lacks confidence, and everyone has sunken into that at one point or another in her life. She has a lack of insight about what she really wants and who she really is, and who she should be with. When I watch her, I feel compassionate for someone who is a little bit lost and is trying to figure herself out. I don't get annoyed with how "shitty" she is.
At a certain point, that level of lack of self awareness just reveals a lack of self reflection. It doesn't take a lot to realize the correct way to handle your own stress and emotions doesn't involve making everyone else around you change.
Ill level with you man. It took forever haha. I really did actually sit through every single episode with my notes open and had to go back and sample every relevant clip. Really glad I convinced you man! Thanks for the comment
@@LetsFindOut1 Hey thanks a lot man! I really hope so. I hope you come back and watch the next couple videos I'm working on and let me know what you think.
@@congratsbro. oh damn, what was your process for that? I want to start making videos and I’m trying to think of a good process. Should I watch on my computer and sample clips as they come or just write down time stamps and go back? I do a podcast right now so I don’t need to visualize any of it besides on my promo clips but if I were to make TH-cam vids I’d have that whole extra level. Anyways this video was funny. Definitely a huge stretch in some points (which is part of why it’s funny) and you have to completely decontextualize her from the absurdity of the situations she’s in for some, but I’ve always been unimpressed with her and the specific reasons of leading Jim on and not being supportive of his company were two big ones.
i disagree about Michael and how pam should feel towards him, even though you did mention he was an idiot at times. he constantly harassed pam (made comments on how she looked inappropriately), but their relationship did improve as time went on. with the teapot thing, I do see your point but at the same time it was an iPod (which was super expensive at the time) and she was probably caught up in the excitement of getting one, and later its shown that Roy got her a knockoff iPod anyways. plus, Michael was awful in this ep (Phyllis' mittens) which is why it changed into a swap in the first place. pam doesn't get mad at Roy, she just accepts it, and she gets "mad" at Jim while repeating what Roy told her ("it's unrealistic") so this is just a character moment where it shows that she internalizes what Roy says which makes her not believe in herself. Roy changing only after they break up is a bit too late imo. he should've been better during their relationship, which is why pam probably didn't mind it as much. he talked about doing other women in front of pam, which made her really uncomfortable and he didn't really consider her feelings at all (for example, valentines day). I disagree about pam using Jim to have fun at the office. pam and Jim were best friends, and Jim was the one who came to her desk everyday too, not the other way around. I agree that they were flirting and that was wrong of them, but I think that's a flaw of pams. she was scared of changing things (breaking up with Roy) and speaking up, even though she was clearly in love with Jim (still wrong of her though). But there's also a possibility she somehow didn't realize Jim liked her, since it seems she has pretty low self esteem. Pam being nice to Karen wasn't really random. Throughout the show she shows kindness to those that have wronged her, and she did say Karen did nothing wrong (which is true) so I don't really understand why she would have to be cold to her. I don't believe Pam is being manipulative when she helps Jim and Karen out. She's probably crying not because her "plan failed" but cause she helped Jim since she wants him to be happy but is also in love with him. She also says "friends help each other. that's what they're supposed to do" so she's still trying to convince herself that she doesn't like Jim, but I think her crying was her unable to deny is any longer. Pam not helping out Dwight when he's fired isn't really her fault. If anyone should tell the truth, it should be Angela or Dwight, instead of her risking exposing their relationship. Also, I don't really understand why she's the "master of manipulation" or where she's good at lying came from. Jim dumps Karen cause she was a rebound (which is awful for Karen). The whole time, Jim still had feelings for Pam but kept at it with Karen to get over her, but he can't which is why he dumps her. The point of Phyllis' comment is her assuming that she's giving the new clients to Jim, when its her actually just assuming/being paranoid, otherwise it would've been a bigger thing/Pam probably would've gotten fired. The point about her lying in high school to get out of PE, I really don't think that's a big deal. She lied to skip PE class. And she might've just not liked PE class but liked volleyball. When pam goes to art school, I don't remember Jim helping her out financially. Also, they were only dating at the time and there was a set time when she was coming back. I think pam quit cause she realized that this art was going to take years to master, and with stuff she didn't enjoy (the computers) and along with the fact she missed Scranton. I actually agreed with Pam in the microwave situation and I don't really understand why this is childish. Pam wasn't the only reason they ended up getting chairs. A bunch of people sided with her since not everyone even uses the copier. I agree that Pam was deceiving Michael by acting extra nice, but it also wasn't the nicest she's been to him. Pam gave him advice about Jan, helps him get closure with Holly, and also tolerates him being really annoying and inappropriate. Oh my gosh I wrote wayy too much!! But as I was watching part of the video, those were some of the things I wanted to point out. I think I already wrote too much just for a fictional character so I'll stop there lol I do agree Pam may have her dislikable moments but I think that’s what makes her human and I don’t really think she’s manipulative. the way you speak is really concise and the editing's really good too!
Ohh yes, such a great explanation. I'm so surprised the author doesn't see the complexity of these social situations, reading between lines is just logical in many of them.
Also Pam treats Michael super well and polite considering how he just harassess her day to day (thinking greatly of himself that he's just sincere and nice)
The point with Jim buying her a house and her not appreciating it was also a bit of a reach. At a certain point in relationships where you see a future, people talk to their SO's before making serious decades long financial commitments like a mortgage.
I mean Toby is a whole serial killer. Michael’s judge of character just knew something wasn’t right about him 😂 But Michael sexually harassed pam the whole series
Sexual harassing is grabbing ass and telling her how he would fuck her, calm yourself. The only thing he does it complement her in a non pg way. There is a difference from saying she has a nice figure and a good face, and saying let me fuck you cause your a secretary and that’s all your good for, or some shit like that. All he did was flirt, and in that case if that’s harassment then Jim did it the entire first few seasons.
@@Slowedbrew When Michael wanted to get Toby fired by making him sexually harass Pam. He did this by giving Pam a note which said something like ‘I really like you and I want you to kiss me’ and told her not to open it and give it to Toby… Also the sexual remarks he made towards her were not welcome and never should have happened in a professional environment.
@@Dead25m I think this is where you'll find people disagree with where definitions have been taken. This might be a new idea, but not everyone follows the ever changing dictionaries to the letter. Notice for example, that some people might take issue with the idea that if the same behavior is welcomed by the recipient (which can be pure guesswork, but happens plenty), then it's no longer sexual harassment. So your example doesn't even work. If the boss says "damn your body is nice" (which is an outrageously unsubtle approach, there are much more subtle examples), and this is not unwelcome, it's no longer sexual harassment. As long as the door is left open that sometimes a behavior might be fine, as long as the recipient is into it, then maybe it's more fitting to call that flirting (even if it's poor quality flirting), to which the recipient can simply respond that they are or are not appreciating that (in whatever non-robotic way they see fit). And this is not even to mention the things that are not intended as sexual advance or flirting at all to begin with, just a compliment (even if it's poorly phrased). Imagine defining sexual harassment so broadly and gray that ''hey you look nice today'' can get you fired - get this - depending on if you look appealing to the recipient. And as for power dynamics, in case you're bringing that up: all the recipient has to do is go to HR, who's more than willing to listen and believe (blindly, even, if the person has the right identity markers). So those are not by definition in favor of one or the other, as evidenced by the ways in which people have taken to insulate themselves from these kinds of risks in the workplace.
@@fransvandenheuvel7161what Michael did was sexual harassment though, especially by office rules. His comments frequently made Pam and several others uncomfortable. He harassed multiple of his employees and in the case of the show, Toby (HR) couldn't do shit because Michael bullied him into silence all the time.
I definitely think you're being way too harsh on Pam lol. Maybe your real bone to pick is with the people who think Jim and Pam are "perfect." They're not, they have big flaws like the rest of us, though they are supposed to be the sort of more relatable characters to the other far whackier and terrible people. You took a lot of this stuff out of context and I think blew her offenses out of proportion. 🤷♀️
The person made this video without understanding the psychology behind a person's actions. He just based everything on his own personal feeling rather than making a wide range of observation.
It's funny cause he uses the "It's always sunny" opening theme to talk about how Pam Beesly is morally the worst character on television. She looks like a saint compared to every last character in IASIP. I really don't get the Pam hate. Yeah, she did some shitty things. Who in this show didn't? I think people harp on her so heavily because they initially watched the show when they were young and they thought Pam was a little angel, and then watched it when they were older and realized she had an emotional affair on her fiance. And it's totally true, that's shit! But so is everything Dwight, Michael and Jim do. The difference is, we can tell that's bad the first time we watch the show. It's... kind of the point.
@@Chzrm3 it's also been popular to hate lead characters ever since the start of the 2010s. If a character isn't 100% squeaky clean in their actions, or isn't an antihero/villain who does the occasion good, then it's open season for a bunch of nags to just trash the character(s) in question as harshly as they can
*talking about Angela and Dwhite” “Actually have a pretty romantic relationship throughout the show” *Angela cheats on the senator with like two other guys*
LMAO, I know right? That's why I can't take these Pam haters seriously. Everything she does is put under a magnifying glass, while every other character gets exonerated.
"Pam is a liar" Angela lied to Andy their entire relationship, then she lied to the senator about being her son's father (and cheats on him) and then lies to Dwight telling him he's not the father of her son so she can know she wants to marry her for her like Dwight hasn't made it clear or not. I feel those three things are WAY bigger than everything pam did. Angela is the biggest POS in the office but idk. Let's hate pam.
Yeah, honestly this whole video is full of atrocious takes. How are you going to talk so much shit about Pam and Jim and then defend Angela and Dwight's relation when it was like a million times worse and objectively reprehensible actions that hurt others purposefully (Andy)
@@MrHarrystank He bullied Dwight ALOT. Perused a taken woman who was engaged, THEN kisses her. And lies on multiple occasions. Idk man….not a great guy.
Not just in The Office, we all have shitty attitudes.. some times we are not able to see them by ourselves, even if a tv character is making parody of them in front of us. And yes, Jim was kind of an asshole to Dwight many times, similar to Michael being a complete asshole to Toby.
Maybe most of Pam's lying are results of how the office treats her. It's her way of controlling the things she can't. Sexual and inappropriate words said to her plus her being super sensitive is really damaging to a person.
I know this is just a silly video as you pinned yourself saying but it's a bit scary how you go out of your way to make a character who goes out of her way to help people so many times, out to be "manipulative and evil," for example, she comforts Angela and counsels her about Dwight, despite her being incredibly rude and apparently calling her a "hussy" back, and you make it sound like she counseled Jim in her relationship with Karen just to "edge her way back into his life," which happened to work to some degree but, to state this as her intention is a clear misread, and the show painted it as her maturing and accepting their relationship. And then you say her plan "backfired" when he actually took her advice. This is an example of intentionally misreading the situation. If she had given him the opposite advice and he ended up moving in with Karen, that would be a more apt use of the word "backfiring." Possibly worse, you seem to misunderstand the lighthearted nature of the show so completely in saying things like "she defaced company property," because honestly, who cares? Are you perhaps a reincarnation of a Dwight from when the show started? I didn't finish watching the video as it was raising my blood pressure to listen to this incredibly cynical take on someone who is so often bullied and taken advantage of in the show itself, especially in the first season (like when she gets fake-fired), but I assume you would go on to mention her antics in later seasons and I just wanted to say that everyone's personality completely switched as the show went on, and early Pam is real Pam IMO
He deliberately commented that it was just a silly video to deflect the exact criticisms you’re making. The comment section is full of people saying it’s suspicious as fuck all his criticisms seem to boil down to viewing women as objects, and he wanted his usual subscribers to not notice I guess.
pam does some annoying and insensitive things but all of these characters do similar things. it really makes me think he has some subconscious hatred for women that he needs to address. a lot his exaggerations are super reminiscent of patriarchal stereotypes :(( i really wanted to enjoy this video
Exactly. And then when it's compared to how she left art school or whatever without telling him - they were in a completely different stage in their lives and relationship! Once you have kids, especially, things change - you can't just decide these big things, especially when finances are a part of it, without considering or discussing it with your partner. Whereas, yeah, when you're in your 20s and no kids are involved (and they weren't even married), these kind of decisions are different.
yeah but opportunities dont stay forever and him had an opportunity of a lifetime to provide for his family. i think you would have supported your partner as long as the partner made an effort to help and love you
I think of this more hedonistically and based on impulse, and I find it hard to see her as horrible... I mean, fuck up for sure, because if you treat people as though they are pre-meditated, logical, consistent, and formulated in all their actions, then when they do horrible things, they start to look like psychopaths... However, the truth is more complicated. Most people do horrible things, most to a lesser degree than Pam, but most with the same lack of meditation, and general defensiveness and responsiveness to taking responsibility for their actions. The show plays on this by amplifying it for all the characters to a caricature of what people do in reality. The failure to own problematic behavior after the fact, and instead rationalize, justify, ignore, live with cognitive dissonance, blame others, or become defensive is something most people have in common. Ironically, the ones who don't share those fallacious behaviors, are probably the more sinister, because that falls pretty exclusively into a small class of people who do horrible things in a very well thought out, premeditated, and highly formulated and well guarded way. They aren't rationalizing, they are overtly and systemically lying, manipulating, controlling, and adapting with all the behaviors overtly done with forethought, consideration, and intent. Mostly, we're talking about sociopaths and psychopaths here (Though I need to point out that even most sociopaths and psychopaths are not overtly malicious, and tend to prefer being chameleons to going out of their way to construct situations for their benefit that require elaborate cover-ups). The nature of Pam's behavior... Just seems... Less calculated to me. It has largely the same outcome, but it feels impulsive, and as I mentioned hedonistic. This means what we are dealing with is a normal person with a large degree of low impulse control, heavily emotional, and highly defensive in her coping skills, justifying, rationalizing, avoiding, and adapting after the fact. This feels less malicious to me honestly... I've met many women like this, and they are bitches for sure, and definitely lack the capacity to take responsibility for their actions and shitty behavior, but at the end of the day, they have the capacity to be caring people, to feel guilty, and to show remorse, and want to be better, they just ultimately fail repeatedly because of severe personality defects. I see them as more tragic than despicable, thus find it hard to hate them, or label them the "worst" in a meaningful way compared to the more calculated and malicious...
I've never watched any of his videos but I think he is kinda trolling here. Pam is pretty terrible if you really think about it but the other characters are a lot worse after 9 seasons of American TV show drama. I can understand singling out Pam though because the other characters are obviously flawed while you are meant to think that Pam is a wonderful person.
She had an mostly emotional, and partly physical affair with Jim that went on for years. Lied and manipulated to get her position, and sabotaged Jim after he tried to support her and she kept failing. None of that is impulsive.
What i think a lot of people miss is that every other character on the show who is 'worse than Pam' is actively shown to be in the wrong. The show let's us know that Michael Scott is an idiot. We know that Creed is incredibly sketchy. We know that Angela is hypocritical and catty. The show doesn't portray the bad things that Pam does as bad things. It tries to justify Pam's bad behavior, and no other character on the show gets the same treatment.
Thank you for the insight. I noticed the same thing one rewatch of the series: Jim and Pam always have to be shown as the 'normal people' in the office when others act up.. but then have no resolution for their own actions (though better concealed, still immoral) Same with that new show invincible with the Amber character: the writers want us to think that they're good people, despite that if you broke down things like this video does they're OBJECTIVELY selfish.
10:35 “She’s stable, sweet and quite frankly, just a much better person than Pam is every possible way.” Thank you for giving Karen the respect she deserves.
i knowwwww , i liked her as a character and thought she was a better match ,and she even called JIm as office Picnic for not talking to her the way they did before like DUDE he is in a relationship
19:03 That sounds like a pretty unfair point though. Buying a house is a pretty massive thing to do in a relationship , and its done without her knowing.She gets no choice or say in where she wants to live. Its just made for her. I agree with all your other points but it seems pretty unreasonable to just allow someone to make big choices for you and not get a little upset.
I seem to recall Pam telling Jim that she loved the house immediately after seeing it for the first time. She seemed very excited about it at the moment. It was only several seasons later that it suddenly became a reason to resent Jim. She used it as an excuse to demonize Jim when it was convenient.
@@congratsbro. Jim exhibits a pattern the moment he does this, and Pam noticed. He makes big decisions without consulting her. Anyone would be against that unless they’re into being 100% submissive and having things chosen for them.
@@lindseyrubenstein6028 i don't think so. Every other person have different favorite characters. Everyone has their own favorite from the show. That's a sign the show has successfully portrayed their characters
@@sheikhsuleiman9208 of course people have different opinions on characters, but I personally think friends is just a bad show, with painfully bad writing and brutally flawed characters. I respect the opinion of anyone who enjoys the show and it’s characters.
@@lindseyrubenstein6028 you're one of the fewest people who find friends flawed and hate its characters, believe me the ratio between loved ones is much bigger than the hated ones. In other words, alot more people love the show and its characters compared to the people who hate it
I went into this with an open mind, but this was a bad-faith take the whole way through. You remove the context from every situation so that your viewers who haven't seen the show will only see Pam's reaction and not what caused it. You make no mention of Roy being physically and verbally abusive and controlling at all. No mention of all the times Angela is HORRIBLE to Pam. Also, there's no evidence that Pam was giving all the leads to Jim; that was just a really nasty comment Phyllis made to shoot her down for no reason. What evidence is there, in the show, that Pam was doing this? Lots of people fake their period to get out of gym class--it doesn't make you a pathological liar or a bad person to make excuses not to do something you don't feel like doing sometimes. That was actually very relatable. And is your argument seriously that Pam should be happy her husband bought A HOUSE without telling her? I bet if Pam bought a house without telling Jim, you'd be saying it was a selfish and thoughtless thing to do. Genuinely, this was the worst researched deep dive I've seen, and I'm open to pretty much any take on this show.
This. I've watched the entire show and his analysis reeks of bias. He throws around labels like psycho, manipulator, and pathological liar thinking they fit like a glove. Pam is definitely flawed and I do think she has done some fairly questionable things before. But she's also a very real, humanized character, and a lot of the things that he accuses her of doing are not that bad when you consider a lot of other people would do similar things. The way he describes her is a lot more fitting to someone like Kelly
lol! As if a secretary who is loaded up with New York Art School debt could actually afford a house. Considering Jim is working for a fledgling company and had to buy from his parents, it’s likely he couldn’t afford many properties on the market.
Yes, all of this behavior is negative (except her being friendly with Jim in the beginning- its ridiculous to think that every girl whos friendly with a guy who likes her is ‘leading him on’), but Dwight is definitely worse! He literally made the entire offices life hell when he bought the building and he’s just a ridiculous, petty, and sometimes downright evil character.
I know you’re just having some fun with this analysis but the basis of your points are out of context and fall flat upon closer inspection. Even fun criticism should be solid and poignant. Bad show my guy
@@noseriouslyimserious4073 Dude he's not even refuting anything, just pointing out how flawed the analysis is (which it really is). Not everything is simping.
The comments remind me why I can’t watch this show. It’s so spot-on accurate in its portrayal of office politics and the people who submit to them. I had enough of that in real life over 20 years or so.
My son introduced me to 'The Office', one weekend when he came home to do his laundry. I loved it, maybe because he and I watched together from then on but I enjoyed it immensely. The actors were just perfect for their characters. It was addicting.😏
i came into this looking up to pam but being open minded and i just don’t agree with any of this. these points just feel like you’re reaching for something bad to say about her, i love her character and respect her character a lot. she was mistreated a lot especially by Michael so saying he treats her like royalty is kind of weird dude. it’s a little sus, he treats her in a sexist way and you saw that as him treating her like royalty which she does not have to be grateful for.
I agree with a lot of what you said but I also feel that alot of your points where a huge reach. For example, when u said how dwight treated her so well in that ONE episode but then she treats him like trash for the rest of the show. When in reality, they both have their moments where they do show they care. There are many moments where Pam shows she cares for Dwight and tries to help him. There are also many moments where Dwight treats Pam poorly afterward.
Creed is a small dose character, if they made a show about creed none of the jokes would land because his comedy relates to how everyone around him reacts
When I first watched through the series, I laughed so hard in the episode where they were playing the murder mystery, Creed runs to his car and drives off.
I actually think Jim was a bit more of an asshole than Pam was, but Michael definitely didn't treat her as amazingly as he makes it sound like and I don't think she is a "psychopath", sociopath or narcissist. Micheal would literally demean her, put her down and borderline if not actually sexual harassment. Also, Pam didn't think Jim was cheating on her. She knew it wasn't that, actually, it was Nelly who was convinced that he the thing that he was keeping from her was that he was cheating. Pam didn't get upset because of Karen and Jim moving in together, she be helped him look for an apartment for Karen after she convinced him that he was overreacting about Karen moving into a place down the street from him, which he was. She was upset after doing that and in Karen thanking her for helping because she was obviously in love with him and was hard for her- just like it was hard for him to see Pam and Roy together. A few more parts were not accurate and seemed like he just didn't understand what was happening in the episode, but I can't remember what they were and don't feel like rewatching it. Yeah, I've seen the series too many times. /rant
I feel the same way. But then again it is easier to fool people than to convince them they've been fooled so maybe we were fooled by the office in general.
@@ath3na.64 100% agree. The video makes me feel like he didn’t really understand the show or office politics in general lol. Like when he said the whole thing about Pam assuming that Angela was the one who wrote the complaint about her. Angela is the only one in the office that has been openly hostile towards Pam. It’s actually pretty logical to assume that the person who is mean to you is the one who complained about you. It actually wouldn’t make any sense for her to assume it was anyone but Angela.
Nope, on the contrary you’re being manipulated by this video to think like that. You don’t have to like her, but thinking she’s a horrible manipulative narcissistic psychopath is the biggest reach I’ve ever seen lol
personally i've never been big on jim either - something about both of them is just very smug and they both give off such a blatant vibe of 'i'm not saying I'm better than everyone but I'm better than everyone'. he definitely behaved questionably throughout, whether it was his own actions or just his unconditional support of pam's actions, even when she's in the wrong. the only thing i disagree on is the house thing. if my boyfriend bought our home without telling me or even letting me see it first, i'd be super irritated by it = that's a big deal and a huge decision to make on someone else's behalf. it actually annoyed me more when she was just fine with it in the actual episode, because i feel like literally nobody would react like that and it was just writers forcing this narrative that jim and pam aren't like 'other couples'.
if u think about , Pam really doesn’t owe Dwight anything , yeh he did something good for her but she didnt ask him to ??? You’re basically implying that because i did good to you i need something back in return, like thats just the opposite of being genuine ??
you do not owe anything to someone who was good to you. But if you have the chance to save them while risking literally nothing, don't and then still continue to treat them like garbage, you're a piece of shit. Being a piece of shit is not illegal but it still is what it is
Appreciate how you span the entirety of this series for the video. You're definitely a super fan. I’ll bite and respond. Pam has done some questionable things. Stringing Jim along was the worst. To be fair, Jim used Pam as she used him prior to them becoming a couple. I mean, come on, he's not gullible and as such he was willing to play along with their mutual, ego-boosting, flirtation. Most arguments seem a bit of a stretch though. Some examples... Ex. #1 - It wasn’t established that Pam was giving Jim all the leads. Phyllis just presumed it. Ex. #2 - Michael does NOT treat Pam like royalty. His work relationship with her is inept and arbitrary. Let’s not forget, he tries to kiss Pam and makes suggestive comments. Ex. #3 - Pam implores Michael to break up with Jan. So, no, Pam’s treatment of Michael in order to get the office chairs is not her best treatment of Michael. This is. Encouraging him to break off a toxic relationship. Ex. #4 and #5 - Pam’s reactions to her parents splitting up and Cathy flirting with Jim (doesn’t she actually try to sleep with Jim at a hotel?). I mean that’s a lot of stress. Many people would react emotionally like that after hearing your parents’ marriage of many decades is done. Justified reaction? Maybe. Understandable reaction? Yeah. Also, she was pregnant during that flirting thing. I have heard (forgive me if I overstep myself here) that insecurities and self-consciousness can creep in during that time. For me, Pam's lovely and totally human. That's one of the beauties of the show. ALL of the characters end up being totally representative of everyday people with their peccadillos, quirks, and weaknesses. At the heart of Pam's weakness is that she didn't know how to communicate difficult feelings and own up to certain realities. Quick little thing. You say you didn't mean to come across so serious (and I won't argue that wasn't your intent). But if that's the case maybe some more overt, funny things would help establish that tone. Memes, more jokes, quirky sidebars, etc (like at 45:23). Without a big presence of those (and your choice of words: ‘psycho’, ‘narcissist’, ‘piece of crap’) this doesn't always come across as lighthearted. Still, I enjoyed it.
@@satekeeper Well detailed and explained. If I were in the situation Jim was put in by Pam, it would rub me the wrong way. Think Jim handled it well. I would say being pregnant is mitigating but that's probably cause I'm partial.
about 14:10 , i thought phyllis was just saying that in preparation of what she thought was going to happen, not that pam was actually doing that. but idk maybe i’m wrong
F... youuuu hating on her and spreading hate on one of the most kind caring and forgiving character on the show while others explicit dicks on show do horrible things directly to people..f u
In the plot line you address around the 6:00 mark, I think it’s a real stretch to suggest that Pam responding to Michal’s plea for relationship advice could fairly be seen as evidence of a bad person. Have you ever had a job where you tell someone what they need to hear, mostly because you realize that telling them your honest thoughts would likely have a bad impact on your ability to do your job? Sometimes you put up with annoying people, or superiors who are temperamental and can frequently disrupt the peace of the workplace if people don’t learn how to avoid conflicts. Pam is at her JOB. Despite the intimacy in coworker relationships that exist at their branch, she is still trying to earn a living. A performance review is something that shouldn’t be based on Michaels interpretation of a voicemail from his personal life. So why is it possibly her fault if Michael ended up in the worst relationship of his life?
Especially if it's michael gary scott. You never get anything done with that dude until you give him what he wants. He wanted reassurance on his thing with Jan, and even if Pam had stood her ground he wouldn't have listened bc he's a literall man-child
Pam is one of my least favorite characters in the show but this video is absolute crap. Also, all the cast become unlikeable by the end of the show, in the same way Michael is unlikeable. Once Michael left, the writers put all the awkwardness and stupidity he displayed into the other characters. Note that Michael is my favorite character.
Karen maybe a better character but no way she was a better fit for Jim. There is something called chemistry and compatability.Just like Michael and Holly , Jim and Pam were meant to be.
@@arusu1806 But she moved the whole family to Austin just for Jim. It was just bad timing for Jim to go into his dream job. They had 2 kids, they had didn’t have that much money from having those 2 kids so Jim couldn’t invest as much as he wanted, and Pam still had to work full-time while raising those kid by herself. That’s stressful
I mean so much about this episode is about one thing... Pam lying. When most of her lies are looked at completely out of context. In that most of her lies are not just out of no where, it's to deescalate conflict from over emotional dangerous man children. Sure it's a passive aggressive way sure and doesnt make it morally right. And it gives her an air of superiority... which she shouldnt deserve. But look at when Jim lies. Hes telling a joke. I mean forthright attitude seems the way to go... but if your honesty results in your job being at risk, people being hurt in silly pranks and in one case or more then one case potential mild gun violence.... yeah... maybe lying to be a wiseass isnt any better then being brutally honest. How many times did Jim stir shit up by being too honest or telling a ridiculous lie for his own amusement, and pam came in trying to calm people down. I think it's a trope for a reason that women are by fault the calming influence on men, but when they do do they are held to a super high standard. They are passive aggressive, they are sneaky, they arent honest. Jim lied to Dwight and said he was a vampire. Pam bv told Michael his Jean's were cute when he was insecure and spiralling into negative behavior. That is a good dichotomy of Jim's lies and Pam's lie so each lie has to be looked at separately for intentions. And in fact lying for a prank doesnt seem any better then lying because you are insecure or passive aggressive. And Jim doesnt really think about the consequences of his pranks until literally the wedding episode in the season finale.
You are right, but you are wrong. Okay... Pam makes many mistakes, but you are looking at situations from outside. I'll give you only example one but there are many more. Pam lies to Michael about Jan and it leads him into a destructive relationship. HOW COULD SHE EVER THINK JAN WOULD DESTROY MICHAEL??? Again... You are looking at it from the outside. If you were that person you could never have imagined that. She could only have thought Michael would make advances and Jan would shut him down. Your chain of thought is kinda logical, but your perspective/point of view breaks your understanding of the difference between seeing a situation and being in it.
Dwight told her Angela not to tell anyone though, he didn't want Michael getting suspicious about going up to corporate since he already went over Michaels head once before. Remember when Michael made Dwight do laundry for him to make up for it?
Jim and Pam are the worst. They act like they are better and smarter than everybody. I can't stand them. Whereas Tim and Dawn in UK one are actually nice
Id consider making a video comparing them to the British characters but then the video would get dislike bombed by a million people because I criticized Pam again.
The episode of Dwight being fired should have happened especially for Michaels and Dwight relationship and it was Angela’s responsibility to fix it with micheal as she did
The way you frame most of your points in this makes it seem like you were just looking for a reason to hate her. A lot of these points are stretches, and you can analyze any character on this show to make them seem like a horrible person if you cherry pick examples like this with no real context. No hate or anything. That's just my opinion.
I think you've gone a bit overboard in this video in your judgement of Pam, she's not perfect, but none of the characters are, and in quite a few of the situations you mention you are assuming the worst motives, with no balance at all, and overlooking other characters' flaws. One of the great things about The Office is how all the characters have faults and are very human, even though the situations and characteristics are often exaggerated for comic effect. I could understand this video if it was a humorous look at how she could be perceived, but it doesn't come across that way to me.
I think most people go underboard in how they view Pam and excuse all her insane behavior because of some flimsy pretense. I know that none of the characters are perfect which is why I am constantly pointing that out throughout the video. I don't see how that excuses Pam. I don't really think I assumed anything in the video. What's an example of an unfair assumption I made? This isn't a specifically humorous video. Its a critical one. I wouldn't go to a horror movie expecting a laugh. This video was clearly intended to be a critical analysis of a character from a TV show. And the pants suit comment was an obvious joke that went over your head. I guess my humor is too dead pan for you? That's just my style of humor. There was actually a LOT of humor in this video that I guess you just missed. My advice would be, don't take this video too seriously. I'm analyzing a fictional TV character. This is a TH-cam video. If anything, its funny that I took the time to investigate a fictional character so in depth. I was just having fun, and my viewers should have fun too. Not get angry at me over a simple character study. If you can come up with an actual example of anything I said that was wrong Id love to discuss it. Thanks
@@congratsbro. Phew I am glad the pants comment was intended to be humorous! 🙂 I started to watch the video 'cos the title was so over the top I thought it would be tongue in cheek, as I agree the concept of doing a deadly serious character critique on a show like The Office seems a tad OTT unless it's for a laugh. As far as examples of assumptions, well you assumed she was leading Jim on with no interest in him because she was bored. She could equally have assumed that that was his reasons for flirting with her, and even if she did like him, he probably wouldn't really like her back outside of work. Michael didn't treat Pam like royalty all the time, he fake fired her, was off hand about her appearance, was so awful when she wore glasses, made her take notes on the away day and cook all the hotdogs by herself etc, etc. You say she was mainly in the wrong for flirting with Jim because she was in a relationship with Roy, but you also say she was also mainly in the wrong for flirting with Jim when he was in a relationship. Angela and Dwight were the two people who should have said something about why Dwight was late - not Pam, they were the ones keeping the relationship top secret. You assumed when Phyllis said not to give the sales leads to Jim she already was, not that Phyllis thought she might do that in the future. When Dwight owned the building he was absolutely awful - treated them all terribly, Pam tried and failed to bluff him into returning things to normal for everyone. And that was a great Dwight moment when he let her think she had won, but Dwight shouldn't have acted like he did to begin with. I assumed it was another plot device to grow Dwight's character tbh (same as the Dwight getting fired for Angela above). There's loads more examples. Anyway, I guess I'm just curious as to why Pam gets such a heartfelt roasting (in the comments too and outside of this video) when it's a a comedy programme and beyond plot devices to keep the characters in the show, she does nothing worse than any of the others (and in fact nothing nearly as bad as many of them).
@@tarac8437 Wow long comment. Ill try to address everything you said. And by the way, I appreciate your comments even if you disagree with me. It would be boring if every comment was supporting my points. What you're calling an assumption on that first point, I would call that a simple observation. She was VERY flirtatious with Jim although she had a fiancé and she rejected Jim at the end of S1. These are the reasons why I concluded that she was using him to escape her boredom. She had no other reason to do so. Jim on the other hand wasn't in a relationship with anyone and actually planned to eventually win her over. By the end of season 1 it was clear that Pam had never wanted anything to do with Jim. For that reason I would say that my analysis was probably correct and not an assumption. He wouldn't like her back outside of work?? That just doesn't make an sense. He was in love with her. Michal is a lot of things, but a bad man isn't one of them. I'm seeing this a lot in some of the objections to my video. "Well what about what this other character did?". I've got a few things to say on that. First of all, I could have made this video about any number of characters and their faults, but I chose Pam because absolutely nobody comes close to the number of things I could fill a video with. Not only that but most of the bad things the other characters are guilty of are done out of ignorance, stupidity, misunderstandings or just general shadiness and yes sometimes just being slightly bad people. By the way, I am planning on doing more videos like this one about some of the other characters on the office so hold off a little before you claim that I'm picking on Pam exclusively. Back to Michael. He's a doofus. He's got a crude sense of humor, no filter and always takes things too far. But when he does seemingly cruel things to Pam or other characters, he's genuinely just trying to be funny and likeable and totally lacks any self awareness. He's not intentionally trying to be cruel. He LOVES everyone in the office. But he especially loves and admires Pam and Jim. You couldn't possibly compare this to the way Pam treats her coworkers, the way she constantly displays a sense of superiority over ALL of them, as I point out constantly in my video with examples. You could point out how bad other characters are all day, but it doesn't excuse Pam, its not what the videos about and this isn't the only video I'm going to make on these characters. I did blame Jim for flirting with Pam in season one and I basically called him a scumbag for it. But the reason I placed the blame more on Pam is because she was the one committed to a marriage with Roy. She had way more of a responsibility not to fool around with other people. I don't think this is anything to criticize my video for. You say Angela and Dwight should have said something...yeah they did. They did say something. I was just pointing out that Pam could have helped in ANY WAY and didn't. Again, not really disproving my point. Nope, I never said for a fact that Pam was just giving the leads to Jim. I posed it as a question because it was HIGHLY implied by what Phyllis said. She had absolutely no reason to say that to Jim and Pam unless it was likely already happening so if that's an "assumption" its a very valid assumption to make. Notice how when Dwight acted terrible towards the whole office he almost instantly redeems himself in the same episode? I have never ever seen that happen with Pam. She NEVER learns her lesson or grows. Yeah Dwight's a weirdo and a creep, just as i said in the video, but he demonstrates that he has a heart all the time, constantly. Pam never does. My TH-cam channel is about discussing Movies and TV shows in depth. There are plenty of other channels that talk about the office in a goofy laid back way. I'm not trying to be that. I'm trying to make in depth content. I am aware that these are fictional characters. The reason Pam gets roasted is for everything I said in the video. She does way way worse stuff than any other character. And she's the only character that I believe demonstrates legitimately sociopathic behavior. I apologize for that long winded response. I just wanted to address everything. Thank you for commenting and thinking about what I said. I'm really glad that people are engaging this much with the video, even if they disagree. Please check back in the future. Ill probably have a video about another character from the show at some point. Thanks
Can’t agree more Michael is not a bad person , he always treated her like a queen He literally allowed her to hang with jim the whole time and motivated jim to propose to her He was the one who came to her art show and hugged her He can pass many comments on every one but those are jokes and not serious It’s just his behaviour And also , she slapped Michael twice and didn’t get fired or anything and she also insulted him very very badly on many occasions Like the one time when her mother dated Michael , it was none of her business to pass such comments on Michael at work place She cheated on Roy if she was so annoyed with his behaviour, she could’ve confronted Roy but instead of that she cheated him , Roy literally allowed her to be friend with jim the whole time by trusting her Also , she stole money from the company, 41500 💵 by lying . Michael always helped her , but her behaviour was clearly changed after she became a sales person ( Michael helped her to become one ) We can say that she was the only one who joined Michael after he quit but she literally wanted to do that from the very start of the show and also she didn’t do anything or contributed anything for the company, it was all Michael who made sales calls and struck the deal with Dunder mufflin but in the end he was shared the price For me , Pam is the worst
I agree the more I’ve rewatched the office the more flaws I’ve seen in Pam, but I also don’t think Pam is a down right terrible person. I think most of the time she is just misguided and confused in the earlier seasons while in the later seasons I do admit she started to become a tad annoying. The whole is Jim cheating on me and getting upset with Jim in the last season were all things that I felt were not something a good person would have done. I will disagree on some of the points you made in this video, some felt like huge reaches to me for example Phillis telling Pam she has to give new leads to everyone not just Jim. No where does it say that Pam had done that or that Phillis was saying she had, the office had just found out about their relationship so Phillis was just telling Pam don’t show favoritism to Jim Just because you are dating. To me the worst character on a TV show that we the audience are suppose to like is Jessica Day of new girl. When I re-watch that show I hate Jessica more and more. But with Pam I don’t think she is absolutely terrible just she is extremely flawed but that is a great thing for a television show to have complex characters who are flawed.
So she’s not a down right terrible person but she’s a pretty terrible person? Yeah sounds about right. Frankly speaking if I knew Pam in real life, I just wouldn’t want to be friends with her, genuinely. I hate hypocrites and Pam reeks of it.
@@brianjc720 yeah agreed. I think if it she was a real person I would like her at first but then I would catch on to how she operates and either A- call her out for it or B- have nothing to do with her. Kinda just like how I felt rewatching they show honestly lol
@@yasminnegash3968 It’s her flaw that makes her just a distasteful person to me. Being a narcissist hypocrite is pretty bad to me. Obviously not every flaw makes you terrible, but hers makes her the worst character in the Office to me. She’s not the worst person in the world obviously. In relation to the characters around her though? Yeah she’s the bottom of the barrel.
If you think about it Jim is a douche too, he treated both Katy and Karen like crap, is awful to both Michael and Dwight, and sure, you could argue that both Michael and Dwight are annoying af, but he furthered a lot of situations and made them worse with his pranks. Also, the house buying thing is bad, it's a huge life choice although, sure it's a lovely romantic gesture, it's also reckless and is clear that he didn't really take Pam's feelings into consideration. I agree in a lot of ways that Pam does many awful things, and that she's very entitled in many situations. But Jim isn't a saint either.
I think they are dramatic foils for each other, but we've been fed so many bad romantic subplots we have trouble seeing a female character in the same light. Like weirdly Jim seems like a character in a rom com. Hes soulful, charming you fall in love with him. Everything about him is about his appeal. It doesn't matter what he does as a job, or who he is. We intrinsically know hes good. He gets the girl in the end because he follows his dream. While Pam seems the more adult version. We are intimately involved with her struggles, whether they be with self doubt or breaking up with the man she loves, the cringetastic horrors of dating (ben Franklin hit on her) and her identity and struggle as both an artist and a professional are real. She worries about whether she should quit her job. She actually fails at some of her dreams. Heck she has to break up with Roy who she loved... not just some cute rebound girl with nothing wrong with her. Jim doesnt even break up with Karen on screen. That is how fake his life seems. Pam almost doesn't get her man. And so when she says that her life is better then what was on screen with all its trope laden romance you believe her. And btw... I think its implied that The house isnt good house. It's in a bad neighborhood, they live close to Creed, and it takes several months to sell. So he made a really bad investment just to please his parents.... but it backfirsd.
I don't think pam gave new leads to Jim. Phyllis was just making a comment in case and the show thrives on awkward humor and that was awkward. Also Michael didn't fire Dwight, he resigned because he knew Angela didn't want anyone to know about them. If anyone is at fault, it's Angela which is why it's important that she be the one to fix it. Pam knew they didn't want anyone to know and there wasn't much she could do since again, Dwight resigned. I appreciate opinions and I certainly appreciate yours, but I think the main thing is the character's have to be flawed and dysfunctional or we wouldn't have such a good show.
If you analyzed all character’s actions with the ignorant manner you analyzed pams then she’s still one of the better people on the cast. I don’t think she’s by any argument for her just being a bad person. And this video is silly cuz anyone could just take the same amount of examples you named in the series to make the exact opposite argument. She’s not a saint but she does have a lot of moments in the series that highly contradict your weak arguments.
Definitely made some good points. It’s easy to overlook some of the less respectable qualities of her because she has a pleasant demeanor most of the time
I think this is a great analysis, and I agree with some of your points however, for many of these points you are not looking at her as a full rounded character. A lot of the points you bring up don’t factor in all aspects of the people around her and how they treat her as well. Pam definitely has her flaws but she is definitely not as terrible as this video paints her out to be. And a lot of these criticisms aren’t valid (in my opinion)because you are explaining these points very one sidedly. Like some of these criticisms are just straight up not fair, and are explained in a way that was completely paints her as manipulative and calculative when they can clearly be explained by just looking at things from a different perspective or literally just from Pam’s point of view.
I appreciate the comment and respect your opinion. If you can point out an example from the video ide like to discuss it. Because although I don't SHOW the context for every point, I believe I factored the context into my opinion every time. I considered the context for each of these points. I just didn't always show it for sake of time.
CongratsBro - I’ve got an example .. you talked about Phyllis telling her not to just give the new leads to people she was sleeping with. But was there any evidence Pam had done this? Actually, had she even given out any leads yet? This seems more like Phyllis being a jerk because the sales people had gotten full of themselves.
@@congratsbro. also, when Jim had to hide his involvement in the new company, it wasn’t because he was afraid of her being crazy. It’s because he knew she would be mad, and he was doing it BEHIND HER BACK. Her response to him blowing 10,000 is justified. Also you said it’s “not a lot of money for a startup” which is entirely untrue for a growing family that has 2 dead end jobs. Also, while he may be making more money, that 10,000 dollars is shared between them. Because they’re married.
I disagree with you, but i respect your opinion. I understand where you are coming from but your looking at her as a two dimensional character. Although she never shows remorse to writing on the bathroom wall. She sticks up for Michael at the Dundies because she knows how much it means to him!
Then she continues to put micheal down every chance she gets, ruins Jim’s relationship, gets with Jim and he is overly supportive with every thing she does including saving her job multiple times and paying for her college. Then she destroys his entire dream because she doesn’t feel like working it out and supporting him. All while being incredibly rude, lying, and manipulating everyone around her to get what she wants. Then refuses to chance when it is pointed out to her. Real stand up woman, she did one or two good things and 100s of bad things, no matter what you say, she is a bad person and does terrible things. Just cause she does the occasional good deed doesn’t clean all her tribulations throughout the series..
@@Slowedbrew I would argue she didn't ruin Jim's relationship with Karen as Karen numous times voices opinions which are counter to that of Jim's. Jim's personality is complex, he's fine poking fun at others but he doesn't like it back at him - hense him dressing up planely at Halloween. Throughout the show Jim gets better at being able to be the butt of the joke. But in some ways, Karen voices that Jim's should grow up - which is good for him. But it is obviously something Jim doesn't want to do. All the characters in the office are morally Grey. None of them are good people - apart from Michaels genuine ignorance at time. I'm not trynna argue she's a good person. I just don't think she's a bad person. She does questionable things but then again so do everyone else.
@@abigroves8616 the question isn’t if everyone else is good, just cause everyone else is bad doesn’t mean she is good or even in a grey area? She knowingly holds her family back from success, refuses to support her husband in his dream when he is consistently supportive for her. If she is a 1/10 and everyone else is a 2 or 3/10, that doesn’t make her a 8/10 while everyone else is a 10/10 in comparison, you know? She is still a 1/10, it doesn’t matter how bad others are, that doesn’t make her better, two wrongs don’t make a right, treat people how you want be treated. It’s simple kindergarten rules but Pam believes she’s above it, lying her way out of situations, being disgusted at the thought of Dwight being happy with Angela, leading Jim on for years even after he confessed is feelings. She constantly thinks about herself over others and is always looking out for herself before caring for others, she is a terrible person, even when Michael is a moron and Dwight is controlling, they always try to do the right things. Pam on the other hand willingly lying and chooses to cause issues in others life’s so she can get her way and then is proud about it afterwards. It’s sad that people actually think she is justified in what she did.
I always noticed these things, but didn’t really mind that much cause I never really viewed any of these characters through the lens of realism. They’re comedy characters, so I didn’t mind their faults if it made for good antics. But after watching this, I’m kinda realizing that there really is no punchline to any of these situations, it’s just Pam doing bad things and that’s it (with the exception of the Michael dating her mom bit, still think a lot of scenes that came from that were hilarious). Which surprised me, I never realized that it was that bad. But you’re right, it really is. So, pretty solid analysis man, I’m pretty invested in where this channel goes now.
yo I’m a pathological liar and I’m pretty tired of the stigma around it. yes lying is always bad, big or small. but it’s an addictive tendency that most people don’t even notice until later. sometimes I lie and I don’t even realize why, cause it’s such a small thing. it’s subconscious. you lie so much because you wanna be perceived a certain way since your self esteem is so low. you get so good at lying that you start to believe it all almost. it’s shit because so many people will drop you immediately when they catch you in a lie but it’s a mental illness and takes a lot of hard work especially when you feel like you can’t even be honest about your struggle because now everyone’s gonna know you’re just a liar and you’ll be outcast which was what you were trying to avoid this whole time. sry I went off
As awful as the character was, the end-scene between Carell and Fischer was amazing, as he just leant in and whispered something along the lines of "It's been an honour".
I love a deep dive persuasive analysis. Don't care if I agree with it. Don't even care if it's rediculous. I really miss when youtube was 30% crackpot conspiracy theory videos 😕
@@brainbomb97 okay, so you know how Barney is portrayed as the overtly sexist playboy douche? Well, Ted is the other side of the same coin and is actually worse than Barney. Ted's whole deal is that he wants the fairy tale happy ending. He wants the wife and kids and the white picket fence on the cul de sac. More than that, he wants his wife to be exactly like him, to share his interests, his personality, his goals. He spends the entire series trying to mould every woman he gets into a relationship with into his image, for which he is rewarded by a ready made genderbent ted mosby waifu. Whilst Barney demeans women and treats them like pawns and bimbos , Ted puts an idealised version of women on a pedestal and refuses to accept them as they are. Neither Barney or Ted treat women like people but rather as objects of desire, as means to an end. Play a drinking game and take a shot everytime Ted says some shit like "this could be the mother of my kids some day!" And then immediately forgets that they ever existed after they dump him. case in point Robin. Ted spends every waking moment, pining after Robin, trying to get Robin back despite knowing they want different things and arent compatible and everytime he gets a chance with her, he spends that chance desperately trying to make her like him rather than meeting her half way. Robin has her own part to play in this relationship, but we're talking about Ted so lets focus on him for now. He's also a pretty shit boyfriend. Yeah, he has his grand gestures at the beginning of the relationship that make the studio audience say "aww 😍🥰" but once he's settled in, all his relationships are characterised by insecurity, pettiness and selfishness, usually his own. He cheated on Victoria with Robin "because she didnt call him back", he invited his ex girlfriend AND Stella's ex husband, the father of her child, to his wedding with Stella even though neither Robin nor Tony really want to come and Stella specifically begged him not to. He expected Stella to move her daughter to New York from New Jersey away from her home and friends because "New Jersey sucks Omegalul". he tore down a historic building and built an ugly bank on top of it to spite Zoey even after telling her he wouldnt, he made a very concerted effort to "win" Robin back in the middle of her wedding to Barney. Ted is a narcissist with a child's understanding of how a relationship is supposed to function. He wants the honeymoon stage and nothing else. As a result he has accrued a string of failed relationships from which he learns zero lessons. Realistically he would be a trash husband. Also he's a transphobe.
@@angusmarch1066 YES! THANK YOU for articulating this much better than I could have. and yes, he and the show are very casually transphobic at times!! Surprising amount of throwaway jokes about the girl he's dating revealing she's, "actually a dude," and him running away. As if trans women describe themselves that way lol...
But DWIGHT deserves most of those pranks!!! Dwight is the type of co-worker that makes a job a LIVING HELL!!! He’s the type of co-worker that’ll time your BR break, lunch break, & how many times you leave your work area. It was MANY occasions that he was a KISS-ASS to Michael & investigated his coworker/ “subordinates” bc he thinks it’s his right to do so. Dwight deserves those pranks bc he thought he was SMARTER & BETTER than his coworkers. He needed to be HUMBLED!
One note: when Phyllis tells Pam that she can’t give all the new leads to Jim, I didnt take that as in Pam WAS doing this. I took it as Phyllis ASSUMING Pam was going to do this, hence the humour
Two things. 1. What kind of psycho are you that you call him "King"? 2. Unlike the presentation of The Office, Joffrey is never presented as being good.
Yeah I understand that this is probably what the show was implying, but if we're being totally analytic, the show never ACTUALLY tells us that. And I just thought it was worth at least touching on since the video was designed to be a detailed history of everything Pam either did or might have done. I was just speculating you know? Like is Phyllis really that tone def to just say that for no reason? I don't actually know. I appreciate you commenting.
I don’t think we were supposed super analyze the office but we watch it so much that we are noticing all the things that don’t add up or how crappy the characters are. When the office premiered the world was a different place PC-wise. I think the show accurately depicts how flawed people are, how they interact with other flawed people, and how they learn from those interactions just like we do irl. We are hypocrites and judgmental. We can’t help it. The show accurately depicts this. It’s exactly what the workplace is like, to a degree. There are some fantastical things about it like how much time they spend outside of work together even Stanley, whom hates everyone there.
I wouldn't say Michael Scott is in no way a bad person. In quite a few instances he's pretty horrendous. He has redeeming moments too certainly but I definitely wouldn't say he's in no way a bad person
This is honestly fully based off of opinion and honestly if you scrutinized literally any character in this show THIS much, you’re gonna find a negative. Just take these examples: I mean Oscar judged everyone for having affairs yet had a sexual relationship with a closeted politician who was married to his closest friend in the office and the father of her child! Which resulted with her living in poverty for a period of time. Ryan clearly manipulated every single person he encountered in order to advance himself despite having no ability to actually follow through on his vanity projects. Darrell was largely indifferent about his relationships within the office despite them all being incredibly supportive of him. He also was willing to manipulate Val and remained in the relationship despite not having any general interest in her. all this AFTER driving a wedge in her previous relationship. I can literally can go on and on. All the characters are ridiculously flawed people. I think with Pam and Jim especially, they were meant to (or if unintentionally, did) show that even if you’re goal when going to work, is to get in and get out and not take it seriously because you believe it’s above you does not make you better than anyone else. And I think it’s easier to probe Pam and Jim after the shows end because of view after view after view. But initially no one bats an eye with any of their character, and I think that’s genuinely because a lot of us are good people but we definitely do a lot of bad things. And Jim and Pam are prime examples of that. Look no further from how Charles Minor treated them. And That’s the point honestly, especially in this show when a lot of the comedy relies on betrayal and insane antics. Everyone sucks, and that’s the fact.
Mostly agree with the stated points🤌 However in what world is it adorable to buy a house (aka do a huge money spending) without even telling a partner beforehand. It’s not just a regular souvenir. Such decision should be thoroughly discussed by the partners and many factors should be taken into consideration
Exactly! And not to mention it was his parents old house - maybe she wouldn't have wanted to live in her partners parents house? I don't think that's that crazy. I would be PISSED if my partner chose a house for us without talking to me. It's where you are going to live for years to come, raise your kids, etc. It's not a surprise piece of jewelry, or even a car would be more acceptable without talking to your partner. But a HOUSE?? With likely a decades long mortgage to pay TOGETHER?? And you don't discuss that with me beforehand? Yeah, that's not going to be romantic to me. I kind of wonder what this guy would say if it was the opposite way on the show - do you think he'd think it was super romantic if she bought Jim a house? Or do you think he would understand if Jim was rightfully upset at this without discussing it beforehand? I'm going to assume the latter... Can you say rooted in misogyny??
Pam sucks more than a lot of people think, yes. But Michael is a textbook narcissist and he doesn’t treat her like royalty- he sexually harasses her constantly along with ignoring general boundaries of hers and other people. Michael is not pure evil, he has good moments and is, like many characters in the show, complex with positive qualities mixed in with toxic ones that make you wonder how they balance out and who is redeemable and not…but characters being agitated with Michael have every right to be. His behavior is often abusive and it’s understandable for them to attempt to enforce strong boundaries because he has no respect for even reasonable boundaries Basically I have no issue with pointing out pam’s shitty behavior but Michael is not treating people well 90% of the time. Even a great deal of actions that appear well meaning have basis in his narcissism, sexism, and racism
So I'll give you that she lies a lot to other co workers. She is never dishonest with Jim. Yes she does things that are completely unethical in an office environment but so does everybody else. That's part of the joke of the show. Everyone goes over the line at work. Michael and Dwight does numerous things each episode that should have them not only fired but charged. Also, she does not think Jim is cheating on her, in fact Nellie thinks he is and she dismisses it by stating he wouldn't do that because he just loves me too much. She definitely has her faults but Kelly, Ryan, Packard and Creed are WAY worse.
I agreed about 50% of the points you made, but I still thought a lot of the decisions she made that you criticized were good things. She does lie way too much, though. But I feel like you were too emotionally insensitive.
I've never seen a single episode of the office, yet you managed to make this INCREDIBLY entertaining. Congrats man! Can't wait to see more of what you have to share.
I don't know, I thought that the whole Point of the show is that everyone is a little awful. Michael, Oscar, Angela, Dwight, Andy, Ryan, and Stanley all have affairs. Phyilis and Creed might both be murders or at least accessories to. Kevin steals from the office. Jan is Jan. Jim and Dwight steal from the company with a fake salesman. David Wallace lies to the faces of his employees during the Picnic Day. Darryl claims workers comp. when he does not deserve it. Val sits by and lets Pam's mural get defaced. Nellie leverages her gender to get ahead, and well.. is just generally awful. Roy is a jerk, but never does anything that bad. Jim pranks Dwight relentlessly, but there is really never any proof that Dwight Started it. Ryan and Kelly ABANDON a baby, a BABY. Nellie Abducts that same baby.
By the way, when I say Michael treats Pam like royalty, I don't mean to say that he is respectful to her. I simply mean that he holds her in very high regard. Like a celebrity. I'm not saying he treats her appropriately. Obviously he's an idiot. I'm just saying, he looks up to both Pam and Jim like idols. Michael obviously looks up to Pam and Jim. Michael is a very bad man on the surface, but he has a good heart. Also, to make this video, I watched every episode back to back, so I tried as much as possible to keep everything in context. Absolutely nothing I said should be out of context. I was very careful about this. The first season of the office is six episodes, not ten. The title of the video is hyperbolic and meant to be funny. Thank you
great analysis man. I do think Pam is right to think that she's better than Michael, since Michael sexually harasses her all the time, but she should recognize that he has a good heart, is the best sales person in the entire company and says those things not because he's deranged, but because he's a genuinely an idiot at social situations. And she should know that the only reason she has a job there is because he lets her coast, so to let him get into a relationship with Jan and let him go into financial ruin because she wanted him to be in a good mood for her review is truly evil. She could have waited a day and tell him the truth, but she let him suffer. She's a terrible person. And how do you fail an intro course for art lol. It's sad. I've passed intro courses for art and I can barely draw a stick figure. You just try, attend class and do the assignments. That's all. She must have not participated. She's a loser not because she's dumb, she's a loser because she doesn't try or care about anything. The only thing she cares about is not changing (like most people).
I would say Micheal has good intentions, but he is genuinely a bad person. Just look at how he treats Dwight, the man who loves him.
I feel like Michael is such a complicated character. If you ask me he's clearly mentally underdeveloped, but the show never explores that so I guess he's just supposed to be weird/awkward. So I guess that all we're left with is that you should look at how someone treats their inferiors (socially in this case), and not how they treat their equals/superiors (which is how Michael perceives Pam & Jim socially).
But I would say that Michael goes through a lot of shit, much of it is by his own making, and goes from being a bad person to a good/normal one, by the end of the show.
Dwight was doing too much.
He wasn't bad imo but just very clearly lacked common sense 🤣
Yo when micheal slept with pams mom 😂
It's not hard to see why Michael treated Dwight like shit, because the way Michael functions is either he is obsessed with people or he profusely dislikes them. He dislikes Dwight so no matter what Dwight does he still treats him like shit. Conversely, he adores Ryan, so no matter how shitty Ryan treats him Michael still loves him. That's just his character. However, he has a lot of growth during his absence in the final seasons and turns up to be Dwight's best man, finally making it up to him and making things right. That's also when he grows enough to know when not to make it about him, and even though Ryan is at the wedding he doesn't talk about him, he is just proud to be there and watch his "children".
After a while, you realize pretty much every character in The Office is kinda trash in their own unique way
Yeah, that's very true. But there's a difference between being a flawed person and being a bad person. I think all the characters are majorly flawed, as am I and literally everyone else IRL. But I believe that Pam is actually a bad person in a way that few other characters are, save Ryan maybe. At least characters like Michael and Dwight make some attempt to reconcile their bad behavior, and we can clearly see them both mature and reflect on the past, something that Pam never does. At least not in a truly impactful way.
@@congratsbro. but wouldn't you make the same excuse fro Pam? She is a flawed woman that was in a bad relationship and had very low self.steem, her stagnation makes her assertive self appear more selfish because she repressed herself for so long.
If we conclude that criminals, cheaters, corrupt bosses, narcissists, sexual deviants or people who sexually harass at the work place (almost every person/men in the office) are "flawed people" then why say that Pam is any worse? I mean Michael and almost every male on the show are very misogynistic towards the women of the show and never actually address it (I get it, different times). The point being that most of these people are selfish who learn to be better.
I think some people see Pam and Jim as "bad people" because they are the least caricatured characters of the show, thus making their flaws more "real" to the audience. Idk if you watch My Hero Academia but a good example can be how a lot of people hate Endeavor more than the actual villains of the story.
And Pam does have a character arc that acknowledges these flaws, The Take's videos are very good in that regard.
@@yllowturtl Pam is hated because she is weak. People tend to prefer strong villains instead of weak one. Weakness is NEVER forgotten by the crowd and as a weak person I know it first hand. If you're weak if you're not perfect morally to compensate then everybody's coming at you.
@@madameproblemes6548 but Pam isn't a villain tf? I don want to call anyone sexist but it is odd to me how many "Why (Insert female lead) is the worst character on tv" videos are out there, is almost as if the bar for female leads to be perfect is higher than male ones.
Take Jim for example, you could make a very similar case on why he is the worst, he thinks he is better than everyone else, he bullies Dwight and he hurts like 3 women because eh can't be honest about Pam.
Or hell, even Michael... dude is selfish, liar, sexist and doesn't use well his power. Not to mention how insensitive he is with HR and Toby for no reason.
Of course I don't believe neither of these 3 are the worst but it seems odd to me how many people focus on Pam's flaws compared to other lead characters.
@@yllowturtl Yes I agree. I mean she is depicted as a villain with all this Pam hatred. People being particularly hard on her I think it's because she can never show results or was able to acheive anything on her own so she is treated even harsher than other women in the show :/
When a character doesn't acheive anything it's like it triggers something in people to be even harsher towards this character 😬
“Michael treats her like a queen”
I get some of it, but he objectifies her on multiple occasions ?? He also puts her in awkward positions that have nothing to do with her. He’s not exactly a gem lol
He makes sexist comments on her, makes her do tasks, that are clearly not her job and even fake fires her in the first episode.
I guess this guy thinks sexual harrassment is "queen treatment".
I completely agree. I actually think Jim was a bit more of an asshole than Pam was, but Michael definitely didn't treat her as amazingly as he makes it sound like and I don't think she is a "psychopath", sociopath or narcissist.
Also, Pam didn't think Jim was cheating on her. She knew it wasn't that, actually, it was Nelly who was convinced that he the thing that he was keeping from her was that he was cheating.
Pam didn't get upset because of Karen and Jim moving in together, she be helped him look for an apartment for Karen after she convinced him that he was overreacting about Karen moving into a place down the street from him, which he was. She was upset after doing that and in Karen thanking her for helping because she was obviously in love with him and was hard for her- just like it was hard for him to see Pam and Roy together.
A few more parts were not accurate and seemed like he just didn't understand what was happening in the episode, but I can't remember what they were and don't feel like rewatching it. Yeah, I've seen the series too many times.
the amount of people that got the relationship between Michael and pam this wrong is shocking
Hahaha Jesus. SJWs have entered the chat xD
@Ontrol you literally just proved his point it’s a tv show relax
I'm pretty sure the volleyball thing was just a mistake by the writers. I've seen a video about some of the plot holes and mistakes, but anyways, how does lying about skipping out on something make you a pathological liar? How many people can say they never missed school or anything because they faked being sick before?
It doesn't make you a pathological liar, he forgot that lying has to be frequent and often unnecessary. But if she skipped the majority of those classes then I would say she leans more towards that sort of mental disorder than she does so a normal kid not feeling like going to school. The issue is the frequency of it, I'm assuming because she was "good enough not to practice." If you combined that with the other instances of lying and manipulative behavior that creates a long stringing pattern of these types of behaviors that she not only became better at but grew into as she aged
as someone thats been around a person diagnosed with narcissism and martyr syndrome, its obvious to me what kind of person michael is and that his little 'gifts' are with the expectation of something in return. michael is a creepy guy, i'm sorry to burst your bubble but he is, especially the first season. he often flirts with pam in a really uncomfortable way and she has every right to look down on him for it. he doesnt deserve graditude for something no one asked you to do. you do that kind of thing because its nice to do, not to force a sense of graditude.
I never look at Michaels first season as a part of his character. They wrote him to be David Brent, not Micheal Scott. It’s only in season 2 onwards where they write him to be the goofball he becomes. Almost like a character rett-con
The critique of the second episode... ooou she defaced company property... ooh she said it wasn't her... obviously never had a job at a big company before
In my abnormal psychology class, we used Michael Scott as a case study for borderline personality disorder, very classic case of BPD
Not only is she allowed to not like him, shes allowed to hate him. He treats her terribly under the guise of kindness. Her insults her and sexualizes her every chance he gets.
@@annahuff9262 exactly. This whole video is a very BAD take
"Ryan exists", that is the the counter argument to this video.
Haha, yeah fair point. I tried to make it clear that I don't like Ryan either.
Gold
Friendly reminder: he started the fire.
@@congratsbro. Ryan is far more worse than any character on this show.
at least ryan is funny sometimes, i’ve literally never laughed at a pam joke
I don't like Pam either, but watching the first 15 minutes of the video I desagreed with everything.
Pam lying when she was a teen to not go to gym class. What? Is there anyone alive who never lied sickness to skip school? And is there anyone who lied and after adulthood regreted deeply those white lies? Pathological liar because of this?
Everyone lied to Michael about the Jan call, but it is Pam's lie about a call that had no meaning the real reason for Michael to get together with Jan? What?
Michael made her cry because of his "prank" of firing her. but she is the devil for writing something that could be easily washed away.
Anf of course she would complain to Michael about the toilet, he is the boss, it is his job.
Roy and Pam were bad together, it was easy for her to move on from him when she compared the way she was treated by him with the way she was teated by Jim.
Roy, in only one episode, showed how different he is when he gives a crap. And I bet that if he met someone who sparkled that on him after their break-up, he would have moved on faster.
Pam was negleted before meeting Jim (he forgot her on their first date, wtf), that's why they had this emotional affair (it's not cool, but Roy thanked Jim for this once saying that he didn't want to deal with Pam's emotions and thoughts and was glad that she had someone to do this really important relationship stuff).
Pam could have lied for Dwight, but so could he. She talked to Angela and made her feel guilty about not telling the truth to Michael, to me this is "doing something".
I guess she reacted that way to Angela and Dwight's relationship because everyone would: she is a christian who judges openly every woman based on their their clothes and personal lives, just to have sex before marriage in someone's party. And Dwight for the way that he treated people in general, it is difficult to see how someone would bone him in the first few seasons haha.
Jim was an adult investing in someone engaged, she took advantage of him as much as he took it of her in this emotional affair. No victims here.
I mean, those are pretty "normal" flaws, it doesn't make a person bad.
She was shitty for a bunch of other reasons, though, that I guess I will see on the rest of the video
In the beginning I think Pam was just so emotionally broken down because of Roy so she does everything she can to try and feel happy again. I’m not saying the attempts were okay but it’s more understandable especially when it’s implied that Roy was abusive. I can’t help but feel bad for her, and was proud of her when she started putting her own feelings first
And then went out of control.
@@Xx5thofHennyxX yeah
This is my thoughts exactly.
It's not okay to hurt people due to your trauma, but 90% of the negative things he pointed out were obviously trauma responses due to dealing with a narcissistic boss and an abusive partner.
When and how was it implied Roy was abusive?
@Jrt8027 I’ll just list a few things that stood out to me:
-Valentine’s Day when he did nothing for her and put his own s3xual desires first, saying that that’s her Valentine’s Day gift
-When they were at the Dundies awards at Chili’s, and because HE was bored and she didn’t want to leave, he tried dragging her to his car
-when she confessed to kissing Jim on casino night, he screamed at her, and directed his need to get physical towards the bar that they were in, and began smashing bottles in the direction of the bartender and busting the chairs.
It doesn’t show him directly striking her, but it is heavily implied that things happened behind closed doors whenever he was angry or drinking. Up until she left Roy, she was terrified of speaking her mind and defending herself, another tell tale sign. If you end up rewatching the series, really focus on the body language when they’re together
"Michael is in no way a bad person."
Toby: "Hold my Costarica ticket."
I think you raise a few good points, like Roy’s doubt in Pam’s follow-through being accurate, but a lot of this seems based on assumption. And while I agree that Pam has a lot of issues that often leave her unlikeable, these reaches weaken your argument.
Like when Phyllis tells Pam she can’t just give all of the clients to Jim, you assumed Pam actually did it, which yes, would be a fireable offense, but they never establish truth to this comment, and Phyllis is known to disarmingly catty at times (you got a lot to learn about this town, sweetie).
Also, as a former teenage girl who sometimes used to lie to get out of PE when she “just didn’t feel like it,” I can confirm that yes, we are all master manipulators and pathological liars.
And Pam not saying anything when Dwight got fired made her a selfish bitch, but we’re not gonna talk about the time Michael tried to make Dwight take the fall for his golden ticket idea?? Only to take credit when he’s praised for it???? I’m sorry, but you lost all credibility when you wrote off Michael as a good person. I love watching his antics but, absolutely not.
Yes on the Phyllis thing, that’s exactly what I was thinking. I feel like, since that line was specifically portrayed as rude by the writing in the scene, that is evidence that goes AGAINST the idea that Pam was giving all the new leads to Jim, meaning the comment was rude because Phyllis just assumed that’s something Pam would do without evidence
Pam can be awful, but really, everyone on that show can be awful. It seems like Erin was the only one with fairly innocent, good-natured personality. I don't recall Meredith being particularly terrible either, just a little on the gross side.
Yeah I agree, and I tried to highlight that in the video and show that im not just singling out Pam. But MY GOD pam is bad. Not one other character even comes close to the level of lying, fraud and manipulation that Pams on. Its actually sickening after a while when you really pay attention to what she does throughout the series. Shes a truly bad person.
@@congratsbro. I honestly still think Angela is the honest worst, she's just not as clever about it.
@@VirginPrince Yeah definitely in the earlier seasons especially, but I really feel that Angela lightens up a lot towards the end while Pam just increasingly gets worse and worse. But I do agree with you that Angela is pretty bad as well.
Toby never really had a mean bone in his body either.
@@VirginPrince I think that was the main joke was that hes just the classic nice guy who gets crapped on for no reason at all. Michael hated him because he enforced all the HR stuff, but otherwise there was really no reason why his life should have been so terrible. Sort of a sad clown of a character.
19:00 I get where you are coming from but this is dangerous territory. Many people (males mostly) expect to be rewarded for buying or doing something for their significant other (in other cases the other is just a crush) but things should not be like that. You make actions for love not because you expect something in return. You just don't demand or should'nt feel entitled of something just because you did something nice. In this particular case Pam is right. people shouldn't expect her to be happy just because "Oh WOW HER HUSBAND BOUGHT HER A HOUSE, WHY IS SHE COMPLAINING, WHAT" They are in a relationship. This type of things should be at least discussed and not be like " I BOUGHT YOU X WHY ARE YOU COMPLAINING". Hope I made clear my point. Lots of love.
Pd: I hate pam too lol
Jim bought the house for her though out of love, though. He didn't care if he was rewarded or not.
@@johnnysake8052 i get its a big decision to get a house but at the same time its like she didnt have to resent him for it she could have just peacefully and like an adult talk it out with jim he even admitted in the episode that he knew it was a risky choice and they could probably have talked it out but instead she decided to not say anything then blow up on jim later on imo thats preaty shitty
@@fab5haus Okay but, let's take this in real context. If your fiancee/spouse
is considering buying a house for you... WHERE THE FUCK IS HE GETTING THE MONEY? One would assume it's coming out of a joint checking around, or at least coming out of expenses that should be discussed TOGETHER like a team. The idea behind the gesture was sweet, but her problem with him wasn't that he bought the house. The problem was him doing such huge things that affected BOTH of them without consulting her - i.e. the house and the new business. It wouldn't fucking matter if it was a house, a car, or a god damn pool. If a couple work together to have financial stability, both parties need to be aware of where the funds are going. It's about respect.
@@raelynm3902If they don’t have a joint account yet, your entire case falls apart…
How much of a main character syndrome type of person can you be? Yes, it is entirely reasonable that when someone buys/does something extremely nice for you, that they expect gratitude or even a return of the same effort. To think you don't have to show those things in return is insane thinking
I can sympathise with Pam when Michael starts dating her mum. I could not easily handle someone I despise, dating my mum.
I love Michael, I see his intentions are often pure, but if he was screwing my mum, I’d probably do worse than just scream in a parking lot and be a nuisance at work.
well he did save her job and got her paid a season before so...i like how pam accepts it then mike is the one who breaks it up for petty reasons when she finally is into it lol and that makes her even more mad..subverted our expectations heavily
@@razkable and she was so excited when she thought it was someone else but when she found out it was her mom all of a sudden she's angry.
At the same time tho both her mom and Michael are adults her mom can take care or herself
Michael did confirm her fears though, he treated her mom like garbage and humiliated her about her age.
This idea of Pam being a bad person hinges on her being totally clear-minded and sensical. But how many people are really like that?? She is deluded, fearful, and lacks confidence, and everyone has sunken into that at one point or another in her life. She has a lack of insight about what she really wants and who she really is, and who she should be with. When I watch her, I feel compassionate for someone who is a little bit lost and is trying to figure herself out. I don't get annoyed with how "shitty" she is.
I agree. I see a young person, who is ready, but scared.
Perfectly said !
At a certain point, that level of lack of self awareness just reveals a lack of self reflection. It doesn't take a lot to realize the correct way to handle your own stress and emotions doesn't involve making everyone else around you change.
I have met plenty of folk who lack confidence, fearful and so on and none of them are a bitch like her.,
Dude i can't imagine how long it took to watch and edit all these clips in, let alone the actual script. P IS A B. i'm convinced.
Ill level with you man. It took forever haha. I really did actually sit through every single episode with my notes open and had to go back and sample every relevant clip. Really glad I convinced you man! Thanks for the comment
@@congratsbro. that's dedication. your channels going to blow up
@@LetsFindOut1 Hey thanks a lot man! I really hope so. I hope you come back and watch the next couple videos I'm working on and let me know what you think.
@@congratsbro. oh damn, what was your process for that? I want to start making videos and I’m trying to think of a good process. Should I watch on my computer and sample clips as they come or just write down time stamps and go back?
I do a podcast right now so I don’t need to visualize any of it besides on my promo clips but if I were to make TH-cam vids I’d have that whole extra level.
Anyways this video was funny. Definitely a huge stretch in some points (which is part of why it’s funny) and you have to completely decontextualize her from the absurdity of the situations she’s in for some, but I’ve always been unimpressed with her and the specific reasons of leading Jim on and not being supportive of his company were two big ones.
I like what he's doing I'm going to check out his other 2 videos. They seem equally as insightful.
i disagree about Michael and how pam should feel towards him, even though you did mention he was an idiot at times. he constantly harassed pam (made comments on how she looked inappropriately), but their relationship did improve as time went on.
with the teapot thing, I do see your point but at the same time it was an iPod (which was super expensive at the time) and she was probably caught up in the excitement of getting one, and later its shown that Roy got her a knockoff iPod anyways. plus, Michael was awful in this ep (Phyllis' mittens) which is why it changed into a swap in the first place.
pam doesn't get mad at Roy, she just accepts it, and she gets "mad" at Jim while repeating what Roy told her ("it's unrealistic") so this is just a character moment where it shows that she internalizes what Roy says which makes her not believe in herself.
Roy changing only after they break up is a bit too late imo. he should've been better during their relationship, which is why pam probably didn't mind it as much. he talked about doing other women in front of pam, which made her really uncomfortable and he didn't really consider her feelings at all (for example, valentines day).
I disagree about pam using Jim to have fun at the office. pam and Jim were best friends, and Jim was the one who came to her desk everyday too, not the other way around. I agree that they were flirting and that was wrong of them, but I think that's a flaw of pams. she was scared of changing things (breaking up with Roy) and speaking up, even though she was clearly in love with Jim (still wrong of her though). But there's also a possibility she somehow didn't realize Jim liked her, since it seems she has pretty low self esteem.
Pam being nice to Karen wasn't really random. Throughout the show she shows kindness to those that have wronged her, and she did say Karen did nothing wrong (which is true) so I don't really understand why she would have to be cold to her.
I don't believe Pam is being manipulative when she helps Jim and Karen out. She's probably crying not because her "plan failed" but cause she helped Jim since she wants him to be happy but is also in love with him. She also says "friends help each other. that's what they're supposed to do" so she's still trying to convince herself that she doesn't like Jim, but I think her crying was her unable to deny is any longer.
Pam not helping out Dwight when he's fired isn't really her fault. If anyone should tell the truth, it should be Angela or Dwight, instead of her risking exposing their relationship. Also, I don't really understand why she's the "master of manipulation" or where she's good at lying came from.
Jim dumps Karen cause she was a rebound (which is awful for Karen). The whole time, Jim still had feelings for Pam but kept at it with Karen to get over her, but he can't which is why he dumps her.
The point of Phyllis' comment is her assuming that she's giving the new clients to Jim, when its her actually just assuming/being paranoid, otherwise it would've been a bigger thing/Pam probably would've gotten fired.
The point about her lying in high school to get out of PE, I really don't think that's a big deal. She lied to skip PE class. And she might've just not liked PE class but liked volleyball.
When pam goes to art school, I don't remember Jim helping her out financially. Also, they were only dating at the time and there was a set time when she was coming back. I think pam quit cause she realized that this art was going to take years to master, and with stuff she didn't enjoy (the computers) and along with the fact she missed Scranton.
I actually agreed with Pam in the microwave situation and I don't really understand why this is childish.
Pam wasn't the only reason they ended up getting chairs. A bunch of people sided with her since not everyone even uses the copier. I agree that Pam was deceiving Michael by acting extra nice, but it also wasn't the nicest she's been to him. Pam gave him advice about Jan, helps him get closure with Holly, and also tolerates him being really annoying and inappropriate.
Oh my gosh I wrote wayy too much!! But as I was watching part of the video, those were some of the things I wanted to point out. I think I already wrote too much just for a fictional character so I'll stop there lol I do agree Pam may have her dislikable moments but I think that’s what makes her human and I don’t really think she’s manipulative. the way you speak is really concise and the editing's really good too!
Ohh yes, such a great explanation. I'm so surprised the author doesn't see the complexity of these social situations, reading between lines is just logical in many of them.
Also Pam treats Michael super well and polite considering how he just harassess her day to day (thinking greatly of himself that he's just sincere and nice)
I couldn't agree more.
period poo
The point with Jim buying her a house and her not appreciating it was also a bit of a reach. At a certain point in relationships where you see a future, people talk to their SO's before making serious decades long financial commitments like a mortgage.
I mean Toby is a whole serial killer. Michael’s judge of character just knew something wasn’t right about him 😂
But Michael sexually harassed pam the whole series
Comment : Pam was sexually harassed by Micheal
Ryan : Yeah sure, she was the Micheal harassed the most.
Sexual harassing is grabbing ass and telling her how he would fuck her, calm yourself. The only thing he does it complement her in a non pg way. There is a difference from saying she has a nice figure and a good face, and saying let me fuck you cause your a secretary and that’s all your good for, or some shit like that. All he did was flirt, and in that case if that’s harassment then Jim did it the entire first few seasons.
@@Slowedbrew When Michael wanted to get Toby fired by making him sexually harass Pam. He did this by giving Pam a note which said something like ‘I really like you and I want you to kiss me’ and told her not to open it and give it to Toby…
Also the sexual remarks he made towards her were not welcome and never should have happened in a professional environment.
@@Dead25m I think this is where you'll find people disagree with where definitions have been taken. This might be a new idea, but not everyone follows the ever changing dictionaries to the letter.
Notice for example, that some people might take issue with the idea that if the same behavior is welcomed by the recipient (which can be pure guesswork, but happens plenty), then it's no longer sexual harassment. So your example doesn't even work. If the boss says "damn your body is nice" (which is an outrageously unsubtle approach, there are much more subtle examples), and this is not unwelcome, it's no longer sexual harassment.
As long as the door is left open that sometimes a behavior might be fine, as long as the recipient is into it, then maybe it's more fitting to call that flirting (even if it's poor quality flirting), to which the recipient can simply respond that they are or are not appreciating that (in whatever non-robotic way they see fit).
And this is not even to mention the things that are not intended as sexual advance or flirting at all to begin with, just a compliment (even if it's poorly phrased). Imagine defining sexual harassment so broadly and gray that ''hey you look nice today'' can get you fired - get this - depending on if you look appealing to the recipient.
And as for power dynamics, in case you're bringing that up: all the recipient has to do is go to HR, who's more than willing to listen and believe (blindly, even, if the person has the right identity markers). So those are not by definition in favor of one or the other, as evidenced by the ways in which people have taken to insulate themselves from these kinds of risks in the workplace.
@@fransvandenheuvel7161what Michael did was sexual harassment though, especially by office rules. His comments frequently made Pam and several others uncomfortable. He harassed multiple of his employees and in the case of the show, Toby (HR) couldn't do shit because Michael bullied him into silence all the time.
I definitely think you're being way too harsh on Pam lol. Maybe your real bone to pick is with the people who think Jim and Pam are "perfect." They're not, they have big flaws like the rest of us, though they are supposed to be the sort of more relatable characters to the other far whackier and terrible people. You took a lot of this stuff out of context and I think blew her offenses out of proportion. 🤷♀️
He also goes hard on her for things that are very light in comparison to things other characters actions.
The person made this video without understanding the psychology behind a person's actions. He just based everything on his own personal feeling rather than making a wide range of observation.
It's funny cause he uses the "It's always sunny" opening theme to talk about how Pam Beesly is morally the worst character on television. She looks like a saint compared to every last character in IASIP.
I really don't get the Pam hate. Yeah, she did some shitty things. Who in this show didn't?
I think people harp on her so heavily because they initially watched the show when they were young and they thought Pam was a little angel, and then watched it when they were older and realized she had an emotional affair on her fiance. And it's totally true, that's shit! But so is everything Dwight, Michael and Jim do. The difference is, we can tell that's bad the first time we watch the show. It's... kind of the point.
@@Chzrm3 it's also been popular to hate lead characters ever since the start of the 2010s. If a character isn't 100% squeaky clean in their actions, or isn't an antihero/villain who does the occasion good, then it's open season for a bunch of nags to just trash the character(s) in question as harshly as they can
*talking about Angela and Dwhite”
“Actually have a pretty romantic relationship throughout the show”
*Angela cheats on the senator with like two other guys*
And then the senator cheats on Angela with his new boyfriend. Karma
LMAO, I know right? That's why I can't take these Pam haters seriously. Everything she does is put under a magnifying glass, while every other character gets exonerated.
"Pam is a liar" Angela lied to Andy their entire relationship, then she lied to the senator about being her son's father (and cheats on him) and then lies to Dwight telling him he's not the father of her son so she can know she wants to marry her for her like Dwight hasn't made it clear or not. I feel those three things are WAY bigger than everything pam did. Angela is the biggest POS in the office but idk. Let's hate pam.
Yeah, honestly this whole video is full of atrocious takes. How are you going to talk so much shit about Pam and Jim and then defend Angela and Dwight's relation when it was like a million times worse and objectively reprehensible actions that hurt others purposefully (Andy)
But the senator was gay
I thought that the jokes was that everyone in the office were shitty people even toby.
especially Toby
@@MrHarrystank He is a bully?
@@MrHarrystank He bullied Dwight ALOT. Perused a taken woman who was engaged, THEN kisses her. And lies on multiple occasions. Idk man….not a great guy.
That’s 100% the joke! This guy took it a little too seriously lol
Not just in The Office, we all have shitty attitudes.. some times we are not able to see them by ourselves, even if a tv character is making parody of them in front of us. And yes, Jim was kind of an asshole to Dwight many times, similar to Michael being a complete asshole to Toby.
Maybe most of Pam's lying are results of how the office treats her. It's her way of controlling the things she can't. Sexual and inappropriate words said to her plus her being super sensitive is really damaging to a person.
Karen over Pam all day.
😂 What? Because of some jokes she’s a pathological liar
I know this is just a silly video as you pinned yourself saying but it's a bit scary how you go out of your way to make a character who goes out of her way to help people so many times, out to be "manipulative and evil," for example, she comforts Angela and counsels her about Dwight, despite her being incredibly rude and apparently calling her a "hussy" back, and you make it sound like she counseled Jim in her relationship with Karen just to "edge her way back into his life," which happened to work to some degree but, to state this as her intention is a clear misread, and the show painted it as her maturing and accepting their relationship. And then you say her plan "backfired" when he actually took her advice. This is an example of intentionally misreading the situation. If she had given him the opposite advice and he ended up moving in with Karen, that would be a more apt use of the word "backfiring."
Possibly worse, you seem to misunderstand the lighthearted nature of the show so completely in saying things like "she defaced company property," because honestly, who cares? Are you perhaps a reincarnation of a Dwight from when the show started? I didn't finish watching the video as it was raising my blood pressure to listen to this incredibly cynical take on someone who is so often bullied and taken advantage of in the show itself, especially in the first season (like when she gets fake-fired), but I assume you would go on to mention her antics in later seasons and I just wanted to say that everyone's personality completely switched as the show went on, and early Pam is real Pam IMO
He deliberately commented that it was just a silly video to deflect the exact criticisms you’re making. The comment section is full of people saying it’s suspicious as fuck all his criticisms seem to boil down to viewing women as objects, and he wanted his usual subscribers to not notice I guess.
pam does some annoying and insensitive things but all of these characters do similar things. it really makes me think he has some subconscious hatred for women that he needs to address. a lot his exaggerations are super reminiscent of patriarchal stereotypes
:(( i really wanted to enjoy this video
@@maddystow6357 yes I totally agree with this.
@@baydiac wait I'm actually confused? Are you saying he does, or doesn't, view women as objects?
@@maddystow6357 Y’all internet psychologists kill me lol
If I had a toddler and a newborn and my husband dropped 10k on a business he told me he wouldn't start, I'd feel beyond betrayed
Exactly. And then when it's compared to how she left art school or whatever without telling him - they were in a completely different stage in their lives and relationship! Once you have kids, especially, things change - you can't just decide these big things, especially when finances are a part of it, without considering or discussing it with your partner. Whereas, yeah, when you're in your 20s and no kids are involved (and they weren't even married), these kind of decisions are different.
They said they talked about it in the episode? I dont know when but its when andys acapella group is singing
yeah but opportunities dont stay forever and him had an opportunity of a lifetime to provide for his family. i think you would have supported your partner as long as the partner made an effort to help and love you
I think of this more hedonistically and based on impulse, and I find it hard to see her as horrible... I mean, fuck up for sure, because if you treat people as though they are pre-meditated, logical, consistent, and formulated in all their actions, then when they do horrible things, they start to look like psychopaths...
However, the truth is more complicated. Most people do horrible things, most to a lesser degree than Pam, but most with the same lack of meditation, and general defensiveness and responsiveness to taking responsibility for their actions. The show plays on this by amplifying it for all the characters to a caricature of what people do in reality. The failure to own problematic behavior after the fact, and instead rationalize, justify, ignore, live with cognitive dissonance, blame others, or become defensive is something most people have in common.
Ironically, the ones who don't share those fallacious behaviors, are probably the more sinister, because that falls pretty exclusively into a small class of people who do horrible things in a very well thought out, premeditated, and highly formulated and well guarded way. They aren't rationalizing, they are overtly and systemically lying, manipulating, controlling, and adapting with all the behaviors overtly done with forethought, consideration, and intent. Mostly, we're talking about sociopaths and psychopaths here (Though I need to point out that even most sociopaths and psychopaths are not overtly malicious, and tend to prefer being chameleons to going out of their way to construct situations for their benefit that require elaborate cover-ups).
The nature of Pam's behavior... Just seems... Less calculated to me. It has largely the same outcome, but it feels impulsive, and as I mentioned hedonistic. This means what we are dealing with is a normal person with a large degree of low impulse control, heavily emotional, and highly defensive in her coping skills, justifying, rationalizing, avoiding, and adapting after the fact. This feels less malicious to me honestly... I've met many women like this, and they are bitches for sure, and definitely lack the capacity to take responsibility for their actions and shitty behavior, but at the end of the day, they have the capacity to be caring people, to feel guilty, and to show remorse, and want to be better, they just ultimately fail repeatedly because of severe personality defects.
I see them as more tragic than despicable, thus find it hard to hate them, or label them the "worst" in a meaningful way compared to the more calculated and malicious...
I've never watched any of his videos but I think he is kinda trolling here. Pam is pretty terrible if you really think about it but the other characters are a lot worse after 9 seasons of American TV show drama. I can understand singling out Pam though because the other characters are obviously flawed while you are meant to think that Pam is a wonderful person.
She had an mostly emotional, and partly physical affair with Jim that went on for years. Lied and manipulated to get her position, and sabotaged Jim after he tried to support her and she kept failing. None of that is impulsive.
🙌🏾
What i think a lot of people miss is that every other character on the show who is 'worse than Pam' is actively shown to be in the wrong. The show let's us know that Michael Scott is an idiot. We know that Creed is incredibly sketchy. We know that Angela is hypocritical and catty. The show doesn't portray the bad things that Pam does as bad things. It tries to justify Pam's bad behavior, and no other character on the show gets the same treatment.
Jim gets that same treatment to an extent.
Thank you for the insight. I noticed the same thing one rewatch of the series: Jim and Pam always have to be shown as the 'normal people' in the office when others act up.. but then have no resolution for their own actions (though better concealed, still immoral) Same with that new show invincible with the Amber character: the writers want us to think that they're good people, despite that if you broke down things like this video does they're OBJECTIVELY selfish.
Good point
True. It's the only reason she is pegged as "the worst" in a series abundant with "the worst" people.
10:35 “She’s stable, sweet and quite frankly, just a much better person than Pam is every possible way.”
Thank you for giving Karen the respect she deserves.
i knowwwww , i liked her as a character and thought she was a better match ,and she even called JIm as office Picnic for not talking to her the way they did before like DUDE he is in a relationship
Imagine that, making a "Karen" likeable 😂
I hated Karen so much
She was boring though
One of the few "normal" characters that was actually a normal person.
19:03 That sounds like a pretty unfair point though. Buying a house is a pretty massive thing to do in a relationship , and its done without her knowing.She gets no choice or say in where she wants to live. Its just made for her. I agree with all your other points but it seems pretty unreasonable to just allow someone to make big choices for you and not get a little upset.
I seem to recall Pam telling Jim that she loved the house immediately after seeing it for the first time. She seemed very excited about it at the moment. It was only several seasons later that it suddenly became a reason to resent Jim. She used it as an excuse to demonize Jim when it was convenient.
@@congratsbro. liking a house doesn’t mean you’d be ok with your spouse spontaneously buying it without any consultation.
@@congratsbro. Jim exhibits a pattern the moment he does this, and Pam noticed. He makes big decisions without consulting her. Anyone would be against that unless they’re into being 100% submissive and having things chosen for them.
Pam? The worst char in TV? Have you seen this show called "Friends"?
The show friends is a character?
@@sheikhsuleiman9208 no but it has a great amount of extremely unlikable characters.
@@lindseyrubenstein6028 i don't think so. Every other person have different favorite characters. Everyone has their own favorite from the show. That's a sign the show has successfully portrayed their characters
@@sheikhsuleiman9208 of course people have different opinions on characters, but I personally think friends is just a bad show, with painfully bad writing and brutally flawed characters. I respect the opinion of anyone who enjoys the show and it’s characters.
@@lindseyrubenstein6028 you're one of the fewest people who find friends flawed and hate its characters, believe me the ratio between loved ones is much bigger than the hated ones. In other words, alot more people love the show and its characters compared to the people who hate it
I went into this with an open mind, but this was a bad-faith take the whole way through. You remove the context from every situation so that your viewers who haven't seen the show will only see Pam's reaction and not what caused it. You make no mention of Roy being physically and verbally abusive and controlling at all. No mention of all the times Angela is HORRIBLE to Pam. Also, there's no evidence that Pam was giving all the leads to Jim; that was just a really nasty comment Phyllis made to shoot her down for no reason. What evidence is there, in the show, that Pam was doing this? Lots of people fake their period to get out of gym class--it doesn't make you a pathological liar or a bad person to make excuses not to do something you don't feel like doing sometimes. That was actually very relatable. And is your argument seriously that Pam should be happy her husband bought A HOUSE without telling her? I bet if Pam bought a house without telling Jim, you'd be saying it was a selfish and thoughtless thing to do. Genuinely, this was the worst researched deep dive I've seen, and I'm open to pretty much any take on this show.
Agreed 💯
This. I've watched the entire show and his analysis reeks of bias. He throws around labels like psycho, manipulator, and pathological liar thinking they fit like a glove. Pam is definitely flawed and I do think she has done some fairly questionable things before. But she's also a very real, humanized character, and a lot of the things that he accuses her of doing are not that bad when you consider a lot of other people would do similar things. The way he describes her is a lot more fitting to someone like Kelly
lol! As if a secretary who is loaded up with New York Art School debt could actually afford a house. Considering Jim is working for a fledgling company and had to buy from his parents, it’s likely he couldn’t afford many properties on the market.
Nah she sucks
@53knights and that made it somehow impossible for Jim to discuss buying the house with her first?
Yes, all of this behavior is negative (except her being friendly with Jim in the beginning- its ridiculous to think that every girl whos friendly with a guy who likes her is ‘leading him on’), but Dwight is definitely worse! He literally made the entire offices life hell when he bought the building and he’s just a ridiculous, petty, and sometimes downright evil character.
I know you’re just having some fun with this analysis but the basis of your points are out of context and fall flat upon closer inspection. Even fun criticism should be solid and poignant. Bad show my guy
Pam is trash and you're simping for a fictional character.
@@noseriouslyimserious4073 Dude he's not even refuting anything, just pointing out how flawed the analysis is (which it really is). Not everything is simping.
@@noseriouslyimserious4073 I love how if you defend a female character you cannot possibly have an actual argument it’s only “simping” lol
The comments remind me why I can’t watch this show. It’s so spot-on accurate in its portrayal of office politics and the people who submit to them. I had enough of that in real life over 20 years or so.
My son introduced me to 'The Office', one weekend when he came home to do his laundry. I loved it, maybe because he and I watched together from then on but I enjoyed it immensely. The actors were just perfect for their characters. It was addicting.😏
😏
@@darkkitty22 😏
@@hailey4786 😏
I used to be a security guard for the night shift of various office spaces in Austin, and the show gave those office spaces daylight to my eyes☺️
What does that have to do with this video?
i came into this looking up to pam but being open minded and i just don’t agree with any of this. these points just feel like you’re reaching for something bad to say about her, i love her character and respect her character a lot. she was mistreated a lot especially by Michael so saying he treats her like royalty is kind of weird dude. it’s a little sus, he treats her in a sexist way and you saw that as him treating her like royalty which she does not have to be grateful for.
just for clicks
She was asking money for gifts, and backing up your girlfriend/wife doesn't make Jim a simp.
Spoken like a true Simp.
I agree with a lot of what you said but I also feel that alot of your points where a huge reach. For example, when u said how dwight treated her so well in that ONE episode but then she treats him like trash for the rest of the show. When in reality, they both have their moments where they do show they care. There are many moments where Pam shows she cares for Dwight and tries to help him. There are also many moments where Dwight treats Pam poorly afterward.
creed is the best character on tv...he needed a spinoff...
Sooo much potential..... chaos.
Creed is a small dose character, if they made a show about creed none of the jokes would land because his comedy relates to how everyone around him reacts
@@calcium6253 cap, i wanna see creed rob a bank bro
No it ruins the mystery its way better to wildly speculate. Its like seeing a monster in a movie its usually better to see it as little as possible
When I first watched through the series, I laughed so hard in the episode where they were playing the murder mystery, Creed runs to his car and drives off.
You're just mad that she didn't stay in New York with you.
(there's a slight resemblance)
😂😂😂😂😂 I-
You're right lmao
Dude I totally see it. He was also on Mad Men at the same time.
Well, after watching the series I really felt pam wasn't a bad person, this video only makes me feel that I was manipulated as well
I actually think Jim was a bit more of an asshole than Pam was, but Michael definitely didn't treat her as amazingly as he makes it sound like and I don't think she is a "psychopath", sociopath or narcissist. Micheal would literally demean her, put her down and borderline if not actually sexual harassment.
Also, Pam didn't think Jim was cheating on her. She knew it wasn't that, actually, it was Nelly who was convinced that he the thing that he was keeping from her was that he was cheating.
Pam didn't get upset because of Karen and Jim moving in together, she be helped him look for an apartment for Karen after she convinced him that he was overreacting about Karen moving into a place down the street from him, which he was. She was upset after doing that and in Karen thanking her for helping because she was obviously in love with him and was hard for her- just like it was hard for him to see Pam and Roy together.
A few more parts were not accurate and seemed like he just didn't understand what was happening in the episode, but I can't remember what they were and don't feel like rewatching it. Yeah, I've seen the series too many times.
/rant
I feel the same way. But then again it is easier to fool people than to convince them they've been fooled so maybe we were fooled by the office in general.
@@ath3na.64 u should make ur own video, i would watch it
@@ath3na.64 100% agree. The video makes me feel like he didn’t really understand the show or office politics in general lol.
Like when he said the whole thing about Pam assuming that Angela was the one who wrote the complaint about her. Angela is the only one in the office that has been openly hostile towards Pam. It’s actually pretty logical to assume that the person who is mean to you is the one who complained about you. It actually wouldn’t make any sense for her to assume it was anyone but Angela.
Nope, on the contrary you’re being manipulated by this video to think like that. You don’t have to like her, but thinking she’s a horrible manipulative narcissistic psychopath is the biggest reach I’ve ever seen lol
"Pam Beesly is the Worst Character on Television
"
That's highly debatable
There are basically two schools of thought.
Anyone with the last name Bolton come to mind?
@@aredape7618 You're supposed to hate the villain. Pam isn't a villain though.
Ted from how i met your mother is tied with pam on being the worst tv character.
@@vanessapipp1480 ted and ross are overhated.
personally i've never been big on jim either - something about both of them is just very smug and they both give off such a blatant vibe of 'i'm not saying I'm better than everyone but I'm better than everyone'. he definitely behaved questionably throughout, whether it was his own actions or just his unconditional support of pam's actions, even when she's in the wrong.
the only thing i disagree on is the house thing. if my boyfriend bought our home without telling me or even letting me see it first, i'd be super irritated by it = that's a big deal and a huge decision to make on someone else's behalf. it actually annoyed me more when she was just fine with it in the actual episode, because i feel like literally nobody would react like that and it was just writers forcing this narrative that jim and pam aren't like 'other couples'.
Agreed its also part of the reason i liked charles miner
jim is important but sucks
if u think about , Pam really doesn’t owe Dwight anything , yeh he did something good for her but she didnt ask him to ??? You’re basically implying that because i did good to you i need something back in return, like thats just the opposite of being genuine ??
you do not owe anything to someone who was good to you. But if you have the chance to save them while risking literally nothing, don't and then still continue to treat them like garbage, you're a piece of shit. Being a piece of shit is not illegal but it still is what it is
@@thomasledesma4439 dwight wasn’t a saint or always kind to her either, he was an asshole for most of the show especially towards Pam
Appreciate how you span the entirety of this series for the video. You're definitely a super fan.
I’ll bite and respond. Pam has done some questionable things. Stringing Jim along was the worst. To be fair, Jim used Pam as she used him prior to them becoming a couple. I mean, come on, he's not gullible and as such he was willing to play along with their mutual, ego-boosting, flirtation.
Most arguments seem a bit of a stretch though. Some examples...
Ex. #1 - It wasn’t established that Pam was giving Jim all the leads. Phyllis just presumed it.
Ex. #2 - Michael does NOT treat Pam like royalty. His work relationship with her is inept and arbitrary. Let’s not forget, he tries to kiss Pam and makes suggestive comments.
Ex. #3 - Pam implores Michael to break up with Jan. So, no, Pam’s treatment of Michael in order to get the office chairs is not her best treatment of Michael. This is. Encouraging him to break off a toxic relationship.
Ex. #4 and #5 - Pam’s reactions to her parents splitting up and Cathy flirting with Jim (doesn’t she actually try to sleep with Jim at a hotel?). I mean that’s a lot of stress. Many people would react emotionally like that after hearing your parents’ marriage of many decades is done. Justified reaction? Maybe. Understandable reaction? Yeah. Also, she was pregnant during that flirting thing. I have heard (forgive me if I overstep myself here) that insecurities and self-consciousness can creep in during that time.
For me, Pam's lovely and totally human. That's one of the beauties of the show. ALL of the characters end up being totally representative of everyday people with their peccadillos, quirks, and weaknesses. At the heart of Pam's weakness is that she didn't know how to communicate difficult feelings and own up to certain realities.
Quick little thing. You say you didn't mean to come across so serious (and I won't argue that wasn't your intent). But if that's the case maybe some more overt, funny things would help establish that tone. Memes, more jokes, quirky sidebars, etc (like at 45:23). Without a big presence of those (and your choice of words: ‘psycho’, ‘narcissist’, ‘piece of crap’) this doesn't always come across as lighthearted. Still, I enjoyed it.
@@satekeeper Well detailed and explained. If I were in the situation Jim was put in by Pam, it would rub me the wrong way. Think Jim handled it well. I would say being pregnant is mitigating but that's probably cause I'm partial.
about 14:10 , i thought phyllis was just saying that in preparation of what she thought was going to happen, not that pam was actually doing that. but idk maybe i’m wrong
Yeah I never thought anything outside of that. Makes me wonder now 🤔
You’re definitely right, this guy is an idiot
what people forget is that The Office is first of all a comedy, it is supposed to make you laugh
I'd say Pam is the perfect representation of an entitled luke-warm person.
24:28 how is her wearing pantsuits unlikable😭biggest nitpicks ever my guy
It was a joke
@@congratsbro. jokes are supposed to be funny dickhead
F... youuuu hating on her and spreading hate on one of the most kind caring and forgiving character on the show while others explicit dicks on show do horrible things directly to people..f u
Hey you had the definition of pathological liar in front of you and read out the definition of Machiavellianism
In the plot line you address around the 6:00 mark, I think it’s a real stretch to suggest that Pam responding to Michal’s plea for relationship advice could fairly be seen as evidence of a bad person. Have you ever had a job where you tell someone what they need to hear, mostly because you realize that telling them your honest thoughts would likely have a bad impact on your ability to do your job? Sometimes you put up with annoying people, or superiors who are temperamental and can frequently disrupt the peace of the workplace if people don’t learn how to avoid conflicts.
Pam is at her JOB. Despite the intimacy in coworker relationships that exist at their branch, she is still trying to earn a living. A performance review is something that shouldn’t be based on Michaels interpretation of a voicemail from his personal life. So why is it possibly her fault if Michael ended up in the worst relationship of his life?
Especially if it's michael gary scott. You never get anything done with that dude until you give him what he wants. He wanted reassurance on his thing with Jan, and even if Pam had stood her ground he wouldn't have listened bc he's a literall man-child
i like this video but the lying to get out of class is not pathological lying
Fr like lying to get out of gym class does not make you the devil
I disagree, but I respect your opinion. To me, she is on my top five office characters.
I also think Pam is awesome 👍
Says a lot about you guys
@@rafaeltorres7891 What? That they're great people?
@@dianabak9100 the office sucks
@@rafaeltorres7891 and that says a lot about you too
Pam is one of my least favorite characters in the show but this video is absolute crap.
Also, all the cast become unlikeable by the end of the show, in the same way Michael is unlikeable. Once Michael left, the writers put all the awkwardness and stupidity he displayed into the other characters. Note that Michael is my favorite character.
Karen maybe a better character but no way she was a better fit for Jim. There is something called chemistry and compatability.Just like Michael and Holly , Jim and Pam were meant to be.
Jim supports Pam, Pam doesn’t support Jim.
@@arusu1806 Karen was serious about Jim, Jim wasn't serious about Karen.
@@arusu1806 But she moved the whole family to Austin just for Jim. It was just bad timing for Jim to go into his dream job. They had 2 kids, they had didn’t have that much money from having those 2 kids so Jim couldn’t invest as much as he wanted, and Pam still had to work full-time while raising those kid by herself. That’s stressful
I mean so much about this episode is about one thing... Pam lying. When most of her lies are looked at completely out of context.
In that most of her lies are not just out of no where, it's to deescalate conflict from over emotional dangerous man children. Sure it's a passive aggressive way sure and doesnt make it morally right. And it gives her an air of superiority... which she shouldnt deserve.
But look at when Jim lies. Hes telling a joke. I mean forthright attitude seems the way to go... but if your honesty results in your job being at risk, people being hurt in silly pranks and in one case or more then one case potential mild gun violence.... yeah... maybe lying to be a wiseass isnt any better then being brutally honest.
How many times did Jim stir shit up by being too honest or telling a ridiculous lie for his own amusement, and pam came in trying to calm people down.
I think it's a trope for a reason that women are by fault the calming influence on men, but when they do do they are held to a super high standard. They are passive aggressive, they are sneaky, they arent honest.
Jim lied to Dwight and said he was a vampire. Pam bv told Michael his Jean's were cute when he was insecure and spiralling into negative behavior. That is a good dichotomy of Jim's lies and Pam's lie so each lie has to be looked at separately for intentions.
And in fact lying for a prank doesnt seem any better then lying because you are insecure or passive aggressive.
And Jim doesnt really think about the consequences of his pranks until literally the wedding episode in the season finale.
^^^
Ok I'm convinced this is a joke.
You are right, but you are wrong. Okay... Pam makes many mistakes, but you are looking at situations from outside.
I'll give you only example one but there are many more.
Pam lies to Michael about Jan and it leads him into a destructive relationship. HOW COULD SHE EVER THINK JAN WOULD DESTROY MICHAEL???
Again... You are looking at it from the outside. If you were that person you could never have imagined that. She could only have thought Michael would make advances and Jan would shut him down.
Your chain of thought is kinda logical, but your perspective/point of view breaks your understanding of the difference between seeing a situation and being in it.
Dwight told her Angela not to tell anyone though, he didn't want Michael getting suspicious about going up to corporate since he already went over Michaels head once before. Remember when Michael made Dwight do laundry for him to make up for it?
Jim and Pam are the worst. They act like they are better and smarter than everybody. I can't stand them. Whereas Tim and Dawn in UK one are actually nice
Id consider making a video comparing them to the British characters but then the video would get dislike bombed by a million people because I criticized Pam again.
@@congratsbro. you do you mate you'll never please all of the people all of the time
The way Michael treats women I would be pissed too if he dated my mother.
The episode of Dwight being fired should have happened especially for Michaels and Dwight relationship and it was Angela’s responsibility to fix it with micheal as she did
What’s funny is that CongratsBro looks just like Roy 🙃
That's what I kept thinking
These comments saying I look like Roy are my favorite lmao.
@@congratsbro. dude we got you dead to rights. Hope your marriage is going great!
Glad I’m not the only one
The way you frame most of your points in this makes it seem like you were just looking for a reason to hate her. A lot of these points are stretches, and you can analyze any character on this show to make them seem like a horrible person if you cherry pick examples like this with no real context. No hate or anything. That's just my opinion.
These sexists jus hate pam even if she drinks her water just horrible people nitpicks things while other character on show most horrible things 😂.
I think you've gone a bit overboard in this video in your judgement of Pam, she's not perfect, but none of the characters are, and in quite a few of the situations you mention you are assuming the worst motives, with no balance at all, and overlooking other characters' flaws. One of the great things about The Office is how all the characters have faults and are very human, even though the situations and characteristics are often exaggerated for comic effect. I could understand this video if it was a humorous look at how she could be perceived, but it doesn't come across that way to me.
And I just got to the bit about pant suits! I mean, really? 🤪
I think most people go underboard in how they view Pam and excuse all her insane behavior because of some flimsy pretense. I know that none of the characters are perfect which is why I am constantly pointing that out throughout the video. I don't see how that excuses Pam. I don't really think I assumed anything in the video. What's an example of an unfair assumption I made? This isn't a specifically humorous video. Its a critical one. I wouldn't go to a horror movie expecting a laugh. This video was clearly intended to be a critical analysis of a character from a TV show. And the pants suit comment was an obvious joke that went over your head. I guess my humor is too dead pan for you? That's just my style of humor. There was actually a LOT of humor in this video that I guess you just missed. My advice would be, don't take this video too seriously. I'm analyzing a fictional TV character. This is a TH-cam video. If anything, its funny that I took the time to investigate a fictional character so in depth. I was just having fun, and my viewers should have fun too. Not get angry at me over a simple character study. If you can come up with an actual example of anything I said that was wrong Id love to discuss it. Thanks
@@congratsbro. Phew I am glad the pants comment was intended to be humorous! 🙂 I started to watch the video 'cos the title was so over the top I thought it would be tongue in cheek, as I agree the concept of doing a deadly serious character critique on a show like The Office seems a tad OTT unless it's for a laugh. As far as examples of assumptions, well you assumed she was leading Jim on with no interest in him because she was bored. She could equally have assumed that that was his reasons for flirting with her, and even if she did like him, he probably wouldn't really like her back outside of work.
Michael didn't treat Pam like royalty all the time, he fake fired her, was off hand about her appearance, was so awful when she wore glasses, made her take notes on the away day and cook all the hotdogs by herself etc, etc.
You say she was mainly in the wrong for flirting with Jim because she was in a relationship with Roy, but you also say she was also mainly in the wrong for flirting with Jim when he was in a relationship.
Angela and Dwight were the two people who should have said something about why Dwight was late - not Pam, they were the ones keeping the relationship top secret. You assumed when Phyllis said not to give the sales leads to Jim she already was, not that Phyllis thought she might do that in the future.
When Dwight owned the building he was absolutely awful - treated them all terribly, Pam tried and failed to bluff him into returning things to normal for everyone. And that was a great Dwight moment when he let her think she had won, but Dwight shouldn't have acted like he did to begin with. I assumed it was another plot device to grow Dwight's character tbh (same as the Dwight getting fired for Angela above). There's loads more examples. Anyway, I guess I'm just curious as to why Pam gets such a heartfelt roasting (in the comments too and outside of this video) when it's a a comedy programme and beyond plot devices to keep the characters in the show, she does nothing worse than any of the others (and in fact nothing nearly as bad as many of them).
@@tarac8437 Wow long comment. Ill try to address everything you said. And by the way, I appreciate your comments even if you disagree with me. It would be boring if every comment was supporting my points. What you're calling an assumption on that first point, I would call that a simple observation. She was VERY flirtatious with Jim although she had a fiancé and she rejected Jim at the end of S1. These are the reasons why I concluded that she was using him to escape her boredom. She had no other reason to do so. Jim on the other hand wasn't in a relationship with anyone and actually planned to eventually win her over. By the end of season 1 it was clear that Pam had never wanted anything to do with Jim. For that reason I would say that my analysis was probably correct and not an assumption. He wouldn't like her back outside of work?? That just doesn't make an sense. He was in love with her. Michal is a lot of things, but a bad man isn't one of them. I'm seeing this a lot in some of the objections to my video. "Well what about what this other character did?". I've got a few things to say on that. First of all, I could have made this video about any number of characters and their faults, but I chose Pam because absolutely nobody comes close to the number of things I could fill a video with. Not only that but most of the bad things the other characters are guilty of are done out of ignorance, stupidity, misunderstandings or just general shadiness and yes sometimes just being slightly bad people. By the way, I am planning on doing more videos like this one about some of the other characters on the office so hold off a little before you claim that I'm picking on Pam exclusively. Back to Michael. He's a doofus. He's got a crude sense of humor, no filter and always takes things too far. But when he does seemingly cruel things to Pam or other characters, he's genuinely just trying to be funny and likeable and totally lacks any self awareness. He's not intentionally trying to be cruel. He LOVES everyone in the office. But he especially loves and admires Pam and Jim. You couldn't possibly compare this to the way Pam treats her coworkers, the way she constantly displays a sense of superiority over ALL of them, as I point out constantly in my video with examples. You could point out how bad other characters are all day, but it doesn't excuse Pam, its not what the videos about and this isn't the only video I'm going to make on these characters. I did blame Jim for flirting with Pam in season one and I basically called him a scumbag for it. But the reason I placed the blame more on Pam is because she was the one committed to a marriage with Roy. She had way more of a responsibility not to fool around with other people. I don't think this is anything to criticize my video for. You say Angela and Dwight should have said something...yeah they did. They did say something. I was just pointing out that Pam could have helped in ANY WAY and didn't. Again, not really disproving my point. Nope, I never said for a fact that Pam was just giving the leads to Jim. I posed it as a question because it was HIGHLY implied by what Phyllis said. She had absolutely no reason to say that to Jim and Pam unless it was likely already happening so if that's an "assumption" its a very valid assumption to make. Notice how when Dwight acted terrible towards the whole office he almost instantly redeems himself in the same episode? I have never ever seen that happen with Pam. She NEVER learns her lesson or grows. Yeah Dwight's a weirdo and a creep, just as i said in the video, but he demonstrates that he has a heart all the time, constantly. Pam never does. My TH-cam channel is about discussing Movies and TV shows in depth. There are plenty of other channels that talk about the office in a goofy laid back way. I'm not trying to be that. I'm trying to make in depth content. I am aware that these are fictional characters. The reason Pam gets roasted is for everything I said in the video. She does way way worse stuff than any other character. And she's the only character that I believe demonstrates legitimately sociopathic behavior. I apologize for that long winded response. I just wanted to address everything. Thank you for commenting and thinking about what I said. I'm really glad that people are engaging this much with the video, even if they disagree. Please check back in the future. Ill probably have a video about another character from the show at some point. Thanks
As you mature, you find out that Dwight is the only cool guy in The Office.
@@hurtjonnegut i don't mean cool like he's a cool guy.. I mean he's a guy I can relate to.. F*ck simp Jim. Dwight rules.
Can’t agree more
Michael is not a bad person , he always treated her like a queen
He literally allowed her to hang with jim the whole time and motivated jim to propose to her
He was the one who came to her art show and hugged her
He can pass many comments on every one but those are jokes and not serious
It’s just his behaviour
And also , she slapped Michael twice and didn’t get fired or anything and she also insulted him very very badly on many occasions
Like the one time when her mother dated Michael , it was none of her business to pass such comments on Michael at work place
She cheated on Roy
if she was so annoyed with his behaviour, she could’ve confronted Roy but instead of that she cheated him , Roy literally allowed her to be friend with jim the whole time by trusting her
Also , she stole money from the company, 41500 💵 by lying .
Michael always helped her , but her behaviour was clearly changed after she became a sales person ( Michael helped her to become one )
We can say that she was the only one who joined Michael after he quit but she literally wanted to do that from the very start of the show and also she didn’t do anything or contributed anything for the company, it was all Michael who made sales calls and struck the deal with Dunder mufflin but in the end he was shared the price
For me , Pam is the worst
I agree the more I’ve rewatched the office the more flaws I’ve seen in Pam, but I also don’t think Pam is a down right terrible person. I think most of the time she is just misguided and confused in the earlier seasons while in the later seasons I do admit she started to become a tad annoying. The whole is Jim cheating on me and getting upset with Jim in the last season were all things that I felt were not something a good person would have done. I will disagree on some of the points you made in this video, some felt like huge reaches to me for example Phillis telling Pam she has to give new leads to everyone not just Jim. No where does it say that Pam had done that or that Phillis was saying she had, the office had just found out about their relationship so Phillis was just telling Pam don’t show favoritism to Jim
Just because you are dating. To me the worst character on a TV show that we the audience are suppose to like is Jessica Day of new girl. When I re-watch that show I hate Jessica more and more. But with Pam I don’t think she is absolutely terrible just she is extremely flawed but that is a great thing for a television show to have complex characters who are flawed.
So she’s not a down right terrible person but she’s a pretty terrible person? Yeah sounds about right. Frankly speaking if I knew Pam in real life, I just wouldn’t want to be friends with her, genuinely. I hate hypocrites and Pam reeks of it.
@@brianjc720 yeah agreed. I think if it she was a real person I would like her at first but then I would catch on to how she operates and either A- call her out for it or B- have nothing to do with her. Kinda just like how I felt rewatching they show honestly lol
@@yasminnegash3968 It’s her flaw that makes her just a distasteful person to me. Being a narcissist hypocrite is pretty bad to me. Obviously not every flaw makes you terrible, but hers makes her the worst character in the Office to me. She’s not the worst person in the world obviously. In relation to the characters around her though? Yeah she’s the bottom of the barrel.
If you think about it Jim is a douche too, he treated both Katy and Karen like crap, is awful to both Michael and Dwight, and sure, you could argue that both Michael and Dwight are annoying af, but he furthered a lot of situations and made them worse with his pranks. Also, the house buying thing is bad, it's a huge life choice although, sure it's a lovely romantic gesture, it's also reckless and is clear that he didn't really take Pam's feelings into consideration. I agree in a lot of ways that Pam does many awful things, and that she's very entitled in many situations. But Jim isn't a saint either.
I think they are dramatic foils for each other, but we've been fed so many bad romantic subplots we have trouble seeing a female character in the same light.
Like weirdly Jim seems like a character in a rom com. Hes soulful, charming you fall in love with him. Everything about him is about his appeal. It doesn't matter what he does as a job, or who he is. We intrinsically know hes good. He gets the girl in the end because he follows his dream.
While Pam seems the more adult version. We are intimately involved with her struggles, whether they be with self doubt or breaking up with the man she loves, the cringetastic horrors of dating (ben Franklin hit on her) and her identity and struggle as both an artist and a professional are real. She worries about whether she should quit her job. She actually fails at some of her dreams. Heck she has to break up with Roy who she loved... not just some cute rebound girl with nothing wrong with her.
Jim doesnt even break up with Karen on screen. That is how fake his life seems.
Pam almost doesn't get her man.
And so when she says that her life is better then what was on screen with all its trope laden romance you believe her.
And btw... I think its implied that The house isnt good house. It's in a bad neighborhood, they live close to Creed, and it takes several months to sell. So he made a really bad investment just to please his parents.... but it backfirsd.
I don't think pam gave new leads to Jim. Phyllis was just making a comment in case and the show thrives on awkward humor and that was awkward. Also Michael didn't fire Dwight, he resigned because he knew Angela didn't want anyone to know about them. If anyone is at fault, it's Angela which is why it's important that she be the one to fix it. Pam knew they didn't want anyone to know and there wasn't much she could do since again, Dwight resigned. I appreciate opinions and I certainly appreciate yours, but I think the main thing is the character's have to be flawed and dysfunctional or we wouldn't have such a good show.
If you analyzed all character’s actions with the ignorant manner you analyzed pams then she’s still one of the better people on the cast. I don’t think she’s by any argument for her just being a bad person. And this video is silly cuz anyone could just take the same amount of examples you named in the series to make the exact opposite argument. She’s not a saint but she does have a lot of moments in the series that highly contradict your weak arguments.
These sexists jus hate pam even if she drinks her water just horrible people nitpicks things while other character on show most horrible things 😂
This guy is psycho😂
Definitely made some good points. It’s easy to overlook some of the less respectable qualities of her because she has a pleasant demeanor most of the time
I think this is a great analysis, and I agree with some of your points however, for many of these points you are not looking at her as a full rounded character. A lot of the points you bring up don’t factor in all aspects of the people around her and how they treat her as well. Pam definitely has her flaws but she is definitely not as terrible as this video paints her out to be. And a lot of these criticisms aren’t valid (in my opinion)because you are explaining these points very one sidedly. Like some of these criticisms are just straight up not fair, and are explained in a way that was completely paints her as manipulative and calculative when they can clearly be explained by just looking at things from a different perspective or literally just from Pam’s point of view.
I appreciate the comment and respect your opinion. If you can point out an example from the video ide like to discuss it. Because although I don't SHOW the context for every point, I believe I factored the context into my opinion every time. I considered the context for each of these points. I just didn't always show it for sake of time.
CongratsBro - I’ve got an example .. you talked about Phyllis telling her not to just give the new leads to people she was sleeping with. But was there any evidence Pam had done this? Actually, had she even given out any leads yet? This seems more like Phyllis being a jerk because the sales people had gotten full of themselves.
@@congratsbro. also, when Jim had to hide his involvement in the new company, it wasn’t because he was afraid of her being crazy. It’s because he knew she would be mad, and he was doing it BEHIND HER BACK. Her response to him blowing 10,000 is justified. Also you said it’s “not a lot of money for a startup” which is entirely untrue for a growing family that has 2 dead end jobs. Also, while he may be making more money, that 10,000 dollars is shared between them. Because they’re married.
I disagree with you, but i respect your opinion. I understand where you are coming from but your looking at her as a two dimensional character. Although she never shows remorse to writing on the bathroom wall. She sticks up for Michael at the Dundies because she knows how much it means to him!
Then she continues to put micheal down every chance she gets, ruins Jim’s relationship, gets with Jim and he is overly supportive with every thing she does including saving her job multiple times and paying for her college. Then she destroys his entire dream because she doesn’t feel like working it out and supporting him. All while being incredibly rude, lying, and manipulating everyone around her to get what she wants. Then refuses to chance when it is pointed out to her. Real stand up woman, she did one or two good things and 100s of bad things, no matter what you say, she is a bad person and does terrible things. Just cause she does the occasional good deed doesn’t clean all her tribulations throughout the series..
@@Slowedbrew I would argue she didn't ruin Jim's relationship with Karen as Karen numous times voices opinions which are counter to that of Jim's. Jim's personality is complex, he's fine poking fun at others but he doesn't like it back at him - hense him dressing up planely at Halloween. Throughout the show Jim gets better at being able to be the butt of the joke. But in some ways, Karen voices that Jim's should grow up - which is good for him. But it is obviously something Jim doesn't want to do. All the characters in the office are morally Grey. None of them are good people - apart from Michaels genuine ignorance at time. I'm not trynna argue she's a good person. I just don't think she's a bad person. She does questionable things but then again so do everyone else.
@@abigroves8616 the question isn’t if everyone else is good, just cause everyone else is bad doesn’t mean she is good or even in a grey area? She knowingly holds her family back from success, refuses to support her husband in his dream when he is consistently supportive for her. If she is a 1/10 and everyone else is a 2 or 3/10, that doesn’t make her a 8/10 while everyone else is a 10/10 in comparison, you know? She is still a 1/10, it doesn’t matter how bad others are, that doesn’t make her better, two wrongs don’t make a right, treat people how you want be treated. It’s simple kindergarten rules but Pam believes she’s above it, lying her way out of situations, being disgusted at the thought of Dwight being happy with Angela, leading Jim on for years even after he confessed is feelings. She constantly thinks about herself over others and is always looking out for herself before caring for others, she is a terrible person, even when Michael is a moron and Dwight is controlling, they always try to do the right things. Pam on the other hand willingly lying and chooses to cause issues in others life’s so she can get her way and then is proud about it afterwards. It’s sad that people actually think she is justified in what she did.
I always noticed these things, but didn’t really mind that much cause I never really viewed any of these characters through the lens of realism. They’re comedy characters, so I didn’t mind their faults if it made for good antics. But after watching this, I’m kinda realizing that there really is no punchline to any of these situations, it’s just Pam doing bad things and that’s it (with the exception of the Michael dating her mom bit, still think a lot of scenes that came from that were hilarious). Which surprised me, I never realized that it was that bad. But you’re right, it really is. So, pretty solid analysis man, I’m pretty invested in where this channel goes now.
yo I’m a pathological liar and I’m pretty tired of the stigma around it. yes lying is always bad, big or small. but it’s an addictive tendency that most people don’t even notice until later. sometimes I lie and I don’t even realize why, cause it’s such a small thing. it’s subconscious. you lie so much because you wanna be perceived a certain way since your self esteem is so low. you get so good at lying that you start to believe it all almost. it’s shit because so many people will drop you immediately when they catch you in a lie but it’s a mental illness and takes a lot of hard work especially when you feel like you can’t even be honest about your struggle because now everyone’s gonna know you’re just a liar and you’ll be outcast which was what you were trying to avoid this whole time. sry I went off
As awful as the character was, the end-scene between Carell and Fischer was amazing, as he just leant in and whispered something along the lines of "It's been an honour".
This is a really cynical way of looking at Pam. Poor, poor Pam. She’s writing as a humans and oh shit… she can be flawed. Anyway? Fucking great video.
I love a deep dive persuasive analysis. Don't care if I agree with it. Don't even care if it's rediculous. I really miss when youtube was 30% crackpot conspiracy theory videos 😕
Nah nah nah. The worst character at least in modern television is Ted Mosby. Ted is arguably the main villain of Himym.
By FAR. Pam's not even a contender.
Ted and Lilly are just terrible people. I love how robin got better and better as a character as the show went on
can you elaborate on why you think Ted is the worst? I've seen the show many times, and I've never had that opinion of him? Legitimately curious.
@@brainbomb97 okay, so you know how Barney is portrayed as the overtly sexist playboy douche? Well, Ted is the other side of the same coin and is actually worse than Barney. Ted's whole deal is that he wants the fairy tale happy ending. He wants the wife and kids and the white picket fence on the cul de sac. More than that, he wants his wife to be exactly like him, to share his interests, his personality, his goals. He spends the entire series trying to mould every woman he gets into a relationship with into his image, for which he is rewarded by a ready made genderbent ted mosby waifu. Whilst Barney demeans women and treats them like pawns and bimbos , Ted puts an idealised version of women on a pedestal and refuses to accept them as they are. Neither Barney or Ted treat women like people but rather as objects of desire, as means to an end. Play a drinking game and take a shot everytime Ted says some shit like "this could be the mother of my kids some day!" And then immediately forgets that they ever existed after they dump him. case in point Robin. Ted spends every waking moment, pining after Robin, trying to get Robin back despite knowing they want different things and arent compatible and everytime he gets a chance with her, he spends that chance desperately trying to make her like him rather than meeting her half way. Robin has her own part to play in this relationship, but we're talking about Ted so lets focus on him for now. He's also a pretty shit boyfriend. Yeah, he has his grand gestures at the beginning of the relationship that make the studio audience say "aww 😍🥰" but once he's settled in, all his relationships are characterised by insecurity, pettiness and selfishness, usually his own. He cheated on Victoria with Robin "because she didnt call him back", he invited his ex girlfriend AND Stella's ex husband, the father of her child, to his wedding with Stella even though neither Robin nor Tony really want to come and Stella specifically begged him not to. He expected Stella to move her daughter to New York from New Jersey away from her home and friends because "New Jersey sucks Omegalul". he tore down a historic building and built an ugly bank on top of it to spite Zoey even after telling her he wouldnt, he made a very concerted effort to "win" Robin back in the middle of her wedding to Barney. Ted is a narcissist with a child's understanding of how a relationship is supposed to function. He wants the honeymoon stage and nothing else. As a result he has accrued a string of failed relationships from which he learns zero lessons. Realistically he would be a trash husband. Also he's a transphobe.
@@angusmarch1066 YES! THANK YOU for articulating this much better than I could have. and yes, he and the show are very casually transphobic at times!! Surprising amount of throwaway jokes about the girl he's dating revealing she's, "actually a dude," and him running away. As if trans women describe themselves that way lol...
This is facts and also I've recently started disliking Jim because as you rewatch the pranks he does seem more and more apparent as bullying
They were funny on the first watch but then you realise after completing the series that actually Dwight was the nice guy and Jim was the douche bag
But DWIGHT deserves most of those pranks!!! Dwight is the type of co-worker that makes a job a LIVING HELL!!! He’s the type of co-worker that’ll time your BR break, lunch break, & how many times you leave your work area. It was MANY occasions that he was a KISS-ASS to Michael & investigated his coworker/ “subordinates” bc he thinks it’s his right to do so. Dwight deserves those pranks bc he thought he was SMARTER & BETTER than his coworkers. He needed to be HUMBLED!
MeatCanyons video pretty much sums it up perfectly
One note: when Phyllis tells Pam that she can’t give all the new leads to Jim, I didnt take that as in Pam WAS doing this. I took it as Phyllis ASSUMING Pam was going to do this, hence the humour
Nahh, I like Pam. She’s a cutie who was suffering from low self esteem but managed to face her fears and get out of a terrible relationship.
Pam was one of the characters I looked forward to seeing every episode.....Pam was Dope!!!
You do realize that king Joffrey is a TV character as well right?
Two things.
1. What kind of psycho are you that you call him "King"?
2. Unlike the presentation of The Office, Joffrey is never presented as being good.
Yes he does...he never said he was talking about the actress, this whole video is about the character.
the part about pam lying to get out of pe class equaling her being a pathological liar has me dyyying
Pam didn’t actually give Jim leads, the point of that scene is Phyllis already suspects pam of giving him preferential treatment.
Yeah I understand that this is probably what the show was implying, but if we're being totally analytic, the show never ACTUALLY tells us that. And I just thought it was worth at least touching on since the video was designed to be a detailed history of everything Pam either did or might have done. I was just speculating you know? Like is Phyllis really that tone def to just say that for no reason? I don't actually know. I appreciate you commenting.
14:05 I always thought it was a warning to not do it rather then not do it again
I don’t think we were supposed super analyze the office but we watch it so much that we are noticing all the things that don’t add up or how crappy the characters are. When the office premiered the world was a different place PC-wise. I think the show accurately depicts how flawed people are, how they interact with other flawed people, and how they learn from those interactions just like we do irl. We are hypocrites and judgmental. We can’t help it. The show accurately depicts this. It’s exactly what the workplace is like, to a degree. There are some fantastical things about it like how much time they spend outside of work together even Stanley, whom hates everyone there.
27:44 just made me realize that almost all of the Oscar scenes go south damn near immediately.
(But in the comedy way.)
I wouldn't say Michael Scott is in no way a bad person. In quite a few instances he's pretty horrendous. He has redeeming moments too certainly but I definitely wouldn't say he's in no way a bad person
Pam is litterally the worst, toxic and manipulative character on t.v
This is honestly fully based off of opinion and honestly if you scrutinized literally any character in this show THIS much, you’re gonna find a negative.
Just take these examples:
I mean Oscar judged everyone for having affairs yet had a sexual relationship with a closeted politician who was married to his closest friend in the office and the father of her child! Which resulted with her living in poverty for a period of time.
Ryan clearly manipulated every single person he encountered in order to advance himself despite having no ability to actually follow through on his vanity projects.
Darrell was largely indifferent about his relationships within the office despite them all being incredibly supportive of him. He also was willing to manipulate Val and remained in the relationship despite not having any general interest in her. all this AFTER driving a wedge in her previous relationship.
I can literally can go on and on.
All the characters are ridiculously flawed people. I think with Pam and Jim especially, they were meant to (or if unintentionally, did) show that even if you’re goal when going to work, is to get in and get out and not take it seriously because you believe it’s above you does not make you better than anyone else.
And I think it’s easier to probe Pam and Jim after the shows end because of view after view after view. But initially no one bats an eye with any of their character, and I think that’s genuinely because a lot of us are good people but we definitely do a lot of bad things. And Jim and Pam are prime examples of that. Look no further from how Charles Minor treated them.
And That’s the point honestly, especially in this show when a lot of the comedy relies on betrayal and insane antics. Everyone sucks, and that’s the fact.
the only point we can agree on is that Pam was flirting with the sound while Jim is making a future for his family and that's low, straight to divorce
I agree
she has some really good moments but mostly she's unlikable
Mostly agree with the stated points🤌
However in what world is it adorable to buy a house (aka do a huge money spending) without even telling a partner beforehand. It’s not just a regular souvenir. Such decision should be thoroughly discussed by the partners and many factors should be taken into consideration
Exactly! And not to mention it was his parents old house - maybe she wouldn't have wanted to live in her partners parents house? I don't think that's that crazy. I would be PISSED if my partner chose a house for us without talking to me. It's where you are going to live for years to come, raise your kids, etc. It's not a surprise piece of jewelry, or even a car would be more acceptable without talking to your partner. But a HOUSE?? With likely a decades long mortgage to pay TOGETHER?? And you don't discuss that with me beforehand? Yeah, that's not going to be romantic to me.
I kind of wonder what this guy would say if it was the opposite way on the show - do you think he'd think it was super romantic if she bought Jim a house? Or do you think he would understand if Jim was rightfully upset at this without discussing it beforehand? I'm going to assume the latter... Can you say rooted in misogyny??
This dude has big Roy energy
Pam sucks more than a lot of people think, yes. But Michael is a textbook narcissist and he doesn’t treat her like royalty- he sexually harasses her constantly along with ignoring general boundaries of hers and other people. Michael is not pure evil, he has good moments and is, like many characters in the show, complex with positive qualities mixed in with toxic ones that make you wonder how they balance out and who is redeemable and not…but characters being agitated with Michael have every right to be. His behavior is often abusive and it’s understandable for them to attempt to enforce strong boundaries because he has no respect for even reasonable boundaries
Basically I have no issue with pointing out pam’s shitty behavior but
Michael is not treating people well 90% of the time. Even a great deal of actions that appear well meaning have basis in his narcissism, sexism, and racism
So I'll give you that she lies a lot to other co workers. She is never dishonest with Jim. Yes she does things that are completely unethical in an office environment but so does everybody else. That's part of the joke of the show. Everyone goes over the line at work. Michael and Dwight does numerous things each episode that should have them not only fired but charged. Also, she does not think Jim is cheating on her, in fact Nellie thinks he is and she dismisses it by stating he wouldn't do that because he just loves me too much. She definitely has her faults but Kelly, Ryan, Packard and Creed are WAY worse.
Good vid, the Office is a show about flawed characters after all.
Very true. And thanks!
Wrong.
@@malakaihernandez2235 A black bear is the best bear.
@A person Fact: Bears eat beets.
@A person Bears beat Battlestar Galactica
I agreed about 50% of the points you made, but I still thought a lot of the decisions she made that you criticized were good things. She does lie way too much, though.
But I feel like you were too emotionally insensitive.
I've never seen a single episode of the office, yet you managed to make this INCREDIBLY entertaining. Congrats man! Can't wait to see more of what you have to share.
Don't u mean congrats bro :)
I don't know, I thought that the whole Point of the show is that everyone is a little awful.
Michael, Oscar, Angela, Dwight, Andy, Ryan, and Stanley all have affairs.
Phyilis and Creed might both be murders or at least accessories to.
Kevin steals from the office.
Jan is Jan.
Jim and Dwight steal from the company with a fake salesman.
David Wallace lies to the faces of his employees during the Picnic Day.
Darryl claims workers comp. when he does not deserve it.
Val sits by and lets Pam's mural get defaced.
Nellie leverages her gender to get ahead, and well.. is just generally awful.
Roy is a jerk, but never does anything that bad.
Jim pranks Dwight relentlessly, but there is really never any proof that Dwight Started it.
Ryan and Kelly ABANDON a baby, a BABY.
Nellie Abducts that same baby.