Thank you for the great video! I am surprised that you found the Outremer 45 to not be so comfortable at sea. What were the conditions during your sea trial? My wife and I have recently sailed 9 days total in a wide range of conditions on Outremer 45s. We have done sea trials on catamarans from 4 different manufacturers and also chartered a catamaran from a 5th manufacturer. Some of our sea trials on other catamarans were less comfortable than the Outremer because the boats tended to hobby horse badly when punching into waves. In nine days of sailing on Outremers we never saw that kind of pitching... their very fine bows and well-centered weight seem to enable them to slice through waves. The only time it got rough was sailing upwind at over 10 knots boat speed. Had I been skipper I would have reefed down. Regarding speed, our favorite thing about the Outremer is that it sails really nicely in light air, so we get to sail more and motor less. Since we're not young anymore, we're hoping that the Outremer 45's relatively small sail area makes sail handling less physically demanding than other catamarans of similar length. Good luck with your boat search!
What an awesome video guys - I feel proud not only to see my son being interviewed by you, but an absolute privilege to have such amazing people like you doing a review of the boat where Terry is involved . Cheers and much love 💕
Thanks Brent, Yes it was a pleasure for us too and what a small world!!! I heard you were unabkle to get over to new Cal because of COVID restrictions - sorry to hear that... Good luck with progressing the project anyway!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 👍 We were able to head for New Caledonia and actually were busy clearing out with ABF when Guy the flying vet called to say they had all gone into lockdown with the Delta variant - so - whilst we could still go we would’ve not been able to navigate as all boats were locked into Noumea. As a result we had to ask ABF to please accept a change of plan and with red face had to ask permission to stay here longer. They were really great and provided an additional years cruising permit as they could see our intention was to leave and not stay. So - we remain blessed in many ways but we’re sure to get the program going again 🙌✨
It so nice to see hear 2 people talk about something that they actually knows really well. A Very nice detailed video. And you two are absolutely delight to look at... have a great time.. cheeers
Hey.. you may saw this.. but I saw a leopard 45 2021 for sale right now on a Facebook catamaran group. Just wanted let you know.. and now I m gonna watch the video..
Cheers Techie, we did but are trying to buy new, as we find it better for knowing the history first hand. I believe some thing will present! Thanks fir you message!
Very well constructed boat, fast and yet simple. If I was in my thirties, this would be the boat, but since I’m closer to your age, it’s all about comfort! It’s not about how fast you get from point A to B but you want to get there rested and in comfort 😊 May your search continue … Ahoy! My friends!
But which 30 year old can afford the price tag of 750K € plus? I mean, there is plenty serious sail boats in that price range and above. But with 30 you likely need a lucky inheritance, have a lucky exit from a 1:10 start-up that actually starts up really well, or a lottery win. And Outremer's boats are for GFK yachts super price stable. That means if you buy a 2018 model you are hardly any cash off. Banks are not happy to finance boats usually. Especially to a 30 year old.
I'm not a sailor but I'm not sure those airtight voids are going to prevent you from seeking. What I mean by that is that I'm under the understanding that the material modern catamarans are made from means they won't sink. You could fill them with water and they'll still float, though obviously not sail. So those voids will keep you slightly more above water, though I don't know by how much, but without or without them your boat isn't sinking to the bottom.
Thanks Derik for the comment. While boats that are built with foam core means that the pieces of hull by themselves will float, the weight of the boat overall (with engines, fit out cupboards, wiring, mast, stores, water and all belongings is 10 -20+tonnes. You need the same amount of buoyancy as you have weight so that is significant airtight voids and there are lots of sunk cats - just check out Sailing Dauntless who are renovating one. If air gets trapped in the bow as it sinks that will often help stop the boat going to the bottom but if you are in rough water the air will progressively bubble out - hence it is the air tight voids (and helped with watertight bulkheads) that will be the things that stops the boat going to the bottom.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 The Seawind 1600 is marketed as virtually unsinkable. But I suppose if you put enough weight on it and left it for enough time it would sink to the bottom.
@@derikjbrandt Dear Derek, The cat I built had watertight voids throughout the length of the hull, in the bow and stern and in the nose cone - so that was unsinkable even if runner by a tanker the pieces would all all float away separately! I think the Seawind does have enough watertight voids to float if fully flooded and if that is the case, time does not have any bearing on it. The other thing that many sales people confuse you with is that they say that "even if it capsized it will not sink". They are just relying on the air trapped in the upside down hulls for that. Leopard have a diagram in their manual of how the boat will float if capsized - but is still sinks if flooded - so just be cautious. Watertight bulkheads stop water going from one area to another so if the engine room floods, it does not go into the rest of the hull but watertight voids never fill up with water so aways maintain their buoyancy. Hopefully one never has to test these issues but if you hit a container in mid Atlantic, I want water tight voids please!
Exactly, we had that conversation off camera before the chat as Brent had many calls with us in Australia as we were close to trying to set something up in the South Pacific for aid work...
Nice job on showing this one. Not my cup of tea, but I'm built for comfort. LOL Love the outtakes, I call them the first day with the new mouth, or sometimes with the new brain.
Good video. The two sided life raft at the trampoline is really smart. (Out the bottom or out the top) Cats (almost never) sink in two ways they flip over or they ground tearing off a sail drive. In both cases the stern goes down because of the weight of the engines - this can trap the life raft. Outremer's solution should be adopted by everyone. With respect, the watertight voids are not to keep your cat from sinking, I don't think any modern cat really sinks - even after months abandoned at sea. What Outremer is actually doing is making it so you can almost always sail back to port - turning a catastrophe into a very difficult but boat-survivable incident. (I personally would gladly pay more for shaft drive over the sail drives. Shaft drive and a drogue - and knowing how to use it and there's probably almost no conditions you couldn't survive.) Something else I've noticed: On video they kind of look a bit like all the other cats, but in person (not shoehorned into a boat show) they are spectacular. The Outremer 55 is even more beautiful. Neel releases polars - their trimarans are incredibly fast - - faster than performance cats -- they want everyone to know it. Seawind releases polars. Just last night I was watching Harbors Unknown videos, they had some shots of the B&G display: in a close reach and a broad reach they were about 90-95% of what I read off the polars chart. Sure, polars are 'theoretical' but they are useful. No polars available I have to assume means a boat isn't as fast as competitors. And of course top end speed isn't why we buy performance cats, it's light wind sailing and good passage making. Cheers.
Those are good points but the one thing I disagree with is that "catamarans don't sink". If both hulls hit the reef and they fill with water, all the common cruising brands will sink (as seen one Sailing Dauntless and several other events) If you hit the reef you are likely to get leaks in the main hull and engine compartment and unless you have air tight voids, the weight of the cat makes it sink...They are such a simple addition and in cats you will never had up all that under sole space. Not that anyone ever want to test the theory but I want to be sure to float if we sail over the top of a container, hit a whale or a reef...
lucky you Conrad!!! Well done. Yes there are several quality cat producers in South Africa that we have not been able to see or get the details about - so we will try and check out the Vision - thanks! Where are you sailing it because if we are nearby it would be great to have look / tour...
Very interesting and informative. Thank you. I assume you have considered an aluminium Garcia Explocat 52 from New Zealand which draw 4.92 ft. Or maybe you would like the ketch rigged Explocat 62.
Hey Des, Yes we ware hop\ing to do a tour of the Garcia Expolocat when we go to France as it is any interesting option! Keep watching and we should show that though the winter...
We are reviewing the 1600 Seawind as the 1370 will be adequately covered by Ruby Rose, I am sure. The 1600 is the one with the lifting daggerboard so is significantly different from the 1370 too.
The Otremer45 absolutely lives up to the hype. I've delivered two and I've not sailed a better, Safer or faster catamaran. If you don't find it comfortable then you should stick to condomarans because there's always a compromise but on a Lagoon or a Leopard you may have wider bunks but I know which is safer and will get you there faster.
The early Danson designed Outremers were indeed performance catamarans. However, they were taken over by Grande Yachts who chose to retain the "performance" label while aiming the boats at a broader market place emphasizing luxury. (Seawind has done the same). This is a 9.6 ton dry displacement (45 foot) boat which is quite heavy. Yes, it will perform better than the charter boats (Leopard, for example) but it can't compare to the limited production Dazcats, for example.
Yes I don't envy the struggle for the boat builders that have to balance what the consumers are buying when they chose a boat that looks good in the shows but perfoms poorly or is constructed less well... They have to choose their target market too and decide what to make. Its a tough business.
Are many people spending 3/4 of a million dollars plus wanting to live on a race boat = not many. Are people spending said large amount of money willing to lose a portion of the performance for the mod cons of modern life in real beads, heads,shower enclosure. Fridges/freezer, power system = as many as the manufacturer can produce per year. Hmm seems to me to be a good business decision. Limited production = lack of orders.
Thank you for this great review. I love watching your videos. I am currently on a FP Elba 45 In Croatia, which is my first time on a catamaran. Try before you buy! It’s a really interesting and Informative experience. It doesn’t matter how many TH-cam videos you watch, and I’ve watched a lot, there is no substitute for actually getting on a boat and Sailing, sleeping and docking, I have an experienced Skipper with me for the week so it’s more of a sailing course than a sailing holiday! I have been lucky with the weather and had a lot of sun for late in the season, but now we are sheltering from a storm all cozy in a little port. I am going to do more chartering next year before I make a decision about which Catamaran to buy. I am keeping an open mind. Thanks again. Hope you find a new cat soon. 🤞
You are aboslutely doing the right thing to sail on them first - well done! Some people even buy a boat based on the dream and then discover they don't even like the lifestyle so sell up!
Barefoot Doctors Sailing so lovely to hear from you. Yes I totally agree. Better to roadtest your dream and then see if it is still the dream you want! So many dreams are based on fantasy. I am proud of me for actually doing the proper research and not just replying on watching sailing videos on you tube! Love to you both. X
I love the Outremers. The La Vagabonde model has by now been overtaken somewhat by newer cats of that type, including the new(er) Outremers, but if Riley and Elayna's epic ride (with Greta Thunberg on board) across the Atlantic in the midst of a series of November storms proved one thing it's that their boat could handle those extreme conditions. That expedition was in fact the birth of Riley's interest in speed as a safety factor. He strongly believes that a fast boat is a safer boat because it has a better chance of outrunning approaching storm systems. Which is exactly what he did all the way across the Atlantic to Portugal, and what ultimately, I think, led to him to go for the Rapido trimaran as his next boat. The Outremer is a quick boat, the Rapido is even quicker.
Yes the Atlantic crossing shows what the boat can do and what is is like to be on the Outremer in a storm.... Its a great series of videos to get a better sense of what it is like sailing in rough weather.
I am not a fan of the Outremers and I do not hold to the theory of SPEED as a safety factor. The majority of worldwide cruisers hold to the theory that a bluewater boat must be STRONG, reliable, capable, and COMFORTABLE. Check out Zatara and his views and you will see that the majority of experiences Keith and Renee have had proves that no one at the end of the day states, "Hey, so glad I was able to outrun that storm, getting here faster was awesome". It's just not the reality in the real world. In the real world, you hear people talking about how COMFORTABLE or uncomfortable the passage was for them. And overwhelmingly the bigger, more stable, and slower boats win the day. We have excellent forecasting capabilities now and can avoid 95% of all major storms especially when we are NOT in a hurry to get somewhere. And that's the real issue at hand, as cruisers, we are in NO RUSH to get from point A to point B on the chart. We can sit and wait for the perfect weather window. Yes, squalls will still happen and come from nowhere, and a bigger and larger boat will handle them with no issues. A smaller and lighter boat will get tossed to and fro way more easily by these squalls and make for a very uncomfortable passage. While I applaud La Vagabond and her crew for making a very rough Atlantic crossing, it was obvious to me it was not a comfortable passage and one that I believe most people if they had the choice would choose a bigger more capable, and a slower boat that would make for a more comfortable passage. They are a young crew, a MINORITY in the cruising world. The majority are older people in their 60's and they do not like being tossed around like that for the sake of speed.
@@MichaelBuck I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I am NOT a fan of Zatara's boat at all myself, but in the end there must be a reason why there's a market for that type of vessel. To each his own and all that.
Would be interesting to compare to newer generation 45ft cats like the Seawind 1370 when they are available. Specificaly performance vs liveable and storage area. Great to have so many choices.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Check out Ruby Rose as they are in the process of acquiring a NEW Seawind 1370, one of the first hulls in the new design. Should be an exciting addition to the family of Seawinds.
The Seawind 1370 (over 70 orders now) has a displacement of 11 tonnes (24k lbs) - so its aprox 15-20% heavier than this Outremer. A Lagoon 46 is 15.5 tonnes and a Lepard 45 is 14.9 tonnes. The Seawind 1370 is aimed at comfortable performance cruising - it also has a lot more volume than the Outremer 45.
I've looked closely at the Seawind and everything is great ....apart from the position of their helm- no good IMHO having a protected helm in inclement weather if you cannot see forward. In a big spray, I have no doubt there will be big visibility issues in Seawinds with having to look through Salon windows. People may disagree, but its a deal breaker for me.
I apologise if you’ve done it already but could you do an update video on the outcome of your insurance claim and any observations both good and bad of the process?
Thanks for the comment again Tom. Yes the show was what we expected mostly - shortage of new boat meant that many were second hand and less "deals" and less gear than usual I think due to the shortage of supply...
thanks for your videos. it will be interesting to see what you decide. I paid a deposit for my future Leopard 45 last month with estimated delivery in March'23 after I reviewed lot of other options, it would be really interesting if after all reviews you would choose Leopard again :)
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 as far I know for Leopard 45 the waiting list is not that long. not sure about Leopard 50, but for Leopard 45 there are free slots with delivery in April-May 2023
I see there are a couple of leopard 50's for sale and they seem to have the extended rear deck but not sure of the layout - prices seem reasonable but why and what condition - good luck hunting
Thanks Jim, we are keeping our eyes open. We do not want to buy in Australia or SE Asia as we are trying to buy in the Med / Caribbean and head homeward...
Polars are only as accurate as the input AND the quality of the VPP used. You can lie about the displacement (input a total lightship weight) and use a code zero and tweak the sail coefficients and suddenly it's sailing at 20 knots close reaching.
Yes that is right - the best polars are when they have both the lightship and full displacement figures so you can be more realistic for cruising estimates. Unfortunately the narrow hulled performance cats are most affected by weight and I am convinced that the majority of cruisers are overweight so get poor performance... Examples are cat cruisers that have all bilges and cupboards filled to the brim and then even create extra storage spaces for more weight.
Outremer is a definite step-up from the Leopard. Go big or go home 😂 Go for the Outremer 55! You should also consider the aluminium Garcia Explocat 52. Good luck with your next catamaran.
I am a bad boy on the net, and they take me down, or scold me quite often. I just tell the truth. I find that people that shoot from the hip take pleasure in others that are frank. My hope is that you will make a rapid choice because of the times we live in. Building a new boat will take at least 2 years, but when the gcr hits soon all of the used boat market will be wiped over night. After the thing hits nobody will want to build boats unless they like the process. No one will have to work. Ask around, and investigate what I am hinting at.
Hi Tom, we want new to break it in our way, and there are no new 50s available, it is prudent we check out what is now in the market as there has been a lot of advancements in 3 years so we can have an informed decision.
Yes it is, but we would like new as any new boat will come with things that need attention and we want to be involved with all the history of the boat if possible, we have had new and used boats and new is our choice. Thanks for your message.
The only reason a company would not release Polars is that they would not help sell the product. If they would not help sell the product that means it is not good.
I don't think so. More likely most companies exaggerate their polar performance (its calculated). Good luck matching any boats performance to the polar. Realistically the polar should be done by an independent acredited company using the same formulas and variables.
Hey Glenn, That is the reason that is most obvious but T=the other reason is that the polars released by some brands are deceptive - they can do it on bare boats without the essential cruising gear and then you are not comparing apples to apples.... So not always a reflection of poor performance. There were some polars for the Outremer 51 released to Ruby Rose on their 51 review and the surprising thing with those is that the downwind performance was quite poor with only doing about 12 knots on a broad reach in 20 knots. Again we don't know if those were based on sailing with Jib and main only (I assume it was) or did it include the use of asymmetrical spinnaker / Code D etc... Too many variables to make a call as they should go downwind well too.
We always struggle with the pronunciation but I think it helps if you put on a French scent and pose, wave you hands around a bit and say "ooot rrra merrrr" rolling the r's deep in your throat
I thought another TH-camr I watched stated that the escape hatches are no longer required ?? If true, can you have a Cat build WITHOUT them? Good video guys and thanks
Hey Doug, Yes they can be built without it but that means that the boat will not get CE certification (for Euroipean approval) so can't go into charter but if if it for personal use you can do without. The boat I built did not have the escape hatches.
Great review, but not the boat for you guys. Not quite classy enough for two classy people. Did I miss a surgery suite onboard? You've got to have room for that, lol.
I am not a fan of the Outremers and I do not hold to the theory of SPEED as a safety factor. The majority of worldwide cruisers hold to the theory that a bluewater boat must be STRONG, reliable, capable, and COMFORTABLE. Check out Zatara and his views and you will see that the majority of experiences Keith and Renee have had proves that no one at the end of the day states, "Hey, so glad I was able to outrun that storm, getting here faster was awesome". It's just not the reality in the real world. In the real world, you hear people talking about how COMFORTABLE or uncomfortable the passage was for them. And overwhelmingly the bigger, more stable, and slower boats win the day. We have excellent forecasting capabilities now and can avoid 95% of all major storms especially when we are NOT in a hurry to get somewhere. And that's the real issue at hand, as cruisers, we are in NO RUSH to get from point A to point B on the chart. We can sit and wait for the perfect weather window. Yes, squalls will still happen and come from nowhere, and a bigger and larger boat will handle them with no issues. A smaller and lighter boat will get tossed to and fro way more easily by these squalls and make for a very uncomfortable passage. While I applaud La Vagabond and her crew for making a very rough Atlantic crossing, it was obvious to me it was not a comfortable passage and one that I believe most people if they had the choice would choose a bigger more capable, and a slower boat that would make for a more comfortable passage. They are a young crew, a MINORITY in the cruising world. The majority are older people in their 60's and they do not like being tossed around like that for the sake of speed.
Speak for yourself michael. Performance catamarans like outremer and seawind and balance are doing well and are on the rise…things change, roll with it.
A big advantage is sailing at low speed. Performance cats can be capable of sailing at wind speed. You often will see Zatara motoring, whilst an outremer would sail. Personally I can't stand motoring, hate the vibrations, noise, smell and cost.
Another big advantage is the solid glass bottoms, strong enough to ride up onto a reef. One did this in tahiti and was fine. And as they said multiple sealed bulkheads. They are designed to do multiple cumnavigations, designed to last 50 years. Very strong and safe boats.
Thank you for the great video! I am surprised that you found the Outremer 45 to not be so comfortable at sea. What were the conditions during your sea trial? My wife and I have recently sailed 9 days total in a wide range of conditions on Outremer 45s. We have done sea trials on catamarans from 4 different manufacturers and also chartered a catamaran from a 5th manufacturer. Some of our sea trials on other catamarans were less comfortable than the Outremer because the boats tended to hobby horse badly when punching into waves. In nine days of sailing on Outremers we never saw that kind of pitching... their very fine bows and well-centered weight seem to enable them to slice through waves. The only time it got rough was sailing upwind at over 10 knots boat speed. Had I been skipper I would have reefed down. Regarding speed, our favorite thing about the Outremer is that it sails really nicely in light air, so we get to sail more and motor less. Since we're not young anymore, we're hoping that the Outremer 45's relatively small sail area makes sail handling less physically demanding than other catamarans of similar length. Good luck with your boat search!
What an awesome video guys - I feel proud not only to see my son being interviewed by you, but an absolute privilege to have such amazing people like you doing a review of the boat where Terry is involved . Cheers and much love 💕
Thanks Brent, Yes it was a pleasure for us too and what a small world!!! I heard you were unabkle to get over to new Cal because of COVID restrictions - sorry to hear that... Good luck with progressing the project anyway!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 👍
We were able to head for New Caledonia and actually were busy clearing out with ABF when Guy the flying vet called to say they had all gone into lockdown with the Delta variant - so - whilst we could still go we would’ve not been able to navigate as all boats were locked into Noumea. As a result we had to ask ABF to please accept a change of plan and with red face had to ask permission to stay here longer.
They were really great and provided an additional years cruising permit as they could see our intention was to leave and not stay.
So - we remain blessed in many ways but we’re sure to get the program going again 🙌✨
Check out GreatCircle o their Outremer 55, on their build, outfitting( going from a Lagoon 52S)
It so nice to see hear 2 people talk about something that they actually knows really well. A Very nice detailed video. And you two are absolutely delight to look at... have a great time.. cheeers
Thanks!
I LOVE YOUR CHANNEL!!
Thanks very much - glad you enjoy it!!!
Hey.. you may saw this.. but I saw a leopard 45 2021 for sale right now on a Facebook catamaran group. Just wanted let you know.. and now I m gonna watch the video..
Cheers Techie, we did but are trying to buy new, as we find it better for knowing the history first hand. I believe some thing will present! Thanks fir you message!
Very well constructed boat, fast and yet simple. If I was in my thirties, this would be the boat, but since I’m closer to your age, it’s all about comfort! It’s not about how fast you get from point A to B but you want to get there rested and in comfort 😊 May your search continue … Ahoy! My friends!
But which 30 year old can afford the price tag of 750K € plus? I mean, there is plenty serious sail boats in that price range and above. But with 30 you likely need a lucky inheritance, have a lucky exit from a 1:10 start-up that actually starts up really well, or a lottery win. And Outremer's boats are for GFK yachts super price stable. That means if you buy a 2018 model you are hardly any cash off.
Banks are not happy to finance boats usually. Especially to a 30 year old.
Yes this boat is for specific people and fills that performance and racing niche. We have been there and it was great!
I'm not a sailor but I'm not sure those airtight voids are going to prevent you from seeking. What I mean by that is that I'm under the understanding that the material modern catamarans are made from means they won't sink. You could fill them with water and they'll still float, though obviously not sail. So those voids will keep you slightly more above water, though I don't know by how much, but without or without them your boat isn't sinking to the bottom.
Thanks Derik for the comment. While boats that are built with foam core means that the pieces of hull by themselves will float, the weight of the boat overall (with engines, fit out cupboards, wiring, mast, stores, water and all belongings is 10 -20+tonnes. You need the same amount of buoyancy as you have weight so that is significant airtight voids and there are lots of sunk cats - just check out Sailing Dauntless who are renovating one. If air gets trapped in the bow as it sinks that will often help stop the boat going to the bottom but if you are in rough water the air will progressively bubble out - hence it is the air tight voids (and helped with watertight bulkheads) that will be the things that stops the boat going to the bottom.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 The Seawind 1600 is marketed as virtually unsinkable. But I suppose if you put enough weight on it and left it for enough time it would sink to the bottom.
@@derikjbrandt Dear Derek, The cat I built had watertight voids throughout the length of the hull, in the bow and stern and in the nose cone - so that was unsinkable even if runner by a tanker the pieces would all all float away separately! I think the Seawind does have enough watertight voids to float if fully flooded and if that is the case, time does not have any bearing on it. The other thing that many sales people confuse you with is that they say that "even if it capsized it will not sink". They are just relying on the air trapped in the upside down hulls for that. Leopard have a diagram in their manual of how the boat will float if capsized - but is still sinks if flooded - so just be cautious. Watertight bulkheads stop water going from one area to another so if the engine room floods, it does not go into the rest of the hull but watertight voids never fill up with water so aways maintain their buoyancy.
Hopefully one never has to test these issues but if you hit a container in mid Atlantic, I want water tight voids please!
You were in good hands with Cat IMPI’s son Terry!!!
Exactly, we had that conversation off camera before the chat as Brent had many calls with us in Australia as we were close to trying to set something up in the South Pacific for aid work...
love how you to compare then was so good and is very help full ty
Thanks!
I found that vid' very enjoyable & informative! Thanks guys.
Looks like a real speedster! I think what you were saying about the auto sailing was very interesting!
Cheers for your comment John!
Awesome information on the Outremer 45/48! I’m here cheering you both on as you continue forward on your path in deciding on a new catamaran!,
You asked about polar diagrams for the Outremer. Ruby Rose did a Outremer 51 review and they posted some polar diagrams, so they are available.
Very objective review compared to other reviews/reviews - thanks for that
Glad you think so!
Great review and good to see you back in your groove
Cheers Ian!!
Thanks for sharing another great video with lots of useful information. She is a beautiful ship 👍⛵️⛵️💕
Glad you liked it!
Excellent breakdown. Thanks 👏👏👏🤟
Good to see you both looking to have your mojo back. Good review and thanks for sharing the search for the new Dash.
Than ks again JT!
Nice job on showing this one. Not my cup of tea, but I'm built for comfort. LOL Love the outtakes, I call them the first day with the new mouth, or sometimes with the new brain.
Thanks Diane - yes brain in neutral and tongue not connecting!
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Always be sure brain is engaged before putting mouth in to gear! LOL
Good video. The two sided life raft at the trampoline is really smart. (Out the bottom or out the top) Cats (almost never) sink in two ways they flip over or they ground tearing off a sail drive. In both cases the stern goes down because of the weight of the engines - this can trap the life raft. Outremer's solution should be adopted by everyone.
With respect, the watertight voids are not to keep your cat from sinking, I don't think any modern cat really sinks - even after months abandoned at sea. What Outremer is actually doing is making it so you can almost always sail back to port - turning a catastrophe into a very difficult but boat-survivable incident. (I personally would gladly pay more for shaft drive over the sail drives. Shaft drive and a drogue - and knowing how to use it and there's probably almost no conditions you couldn't survive.)
Something else I've noticed: On video they kind of look a bit like all the other cats, but in person (not shoehorned into a boat show) they are spectacular. The Outremer 55 is even more beautiful.
Neel releases polars - their trimarans are incredibly fast - - faster than performance cats -- they want everyone to know it. Seawind releases polars. Just last night I was watching Harbors Unknown videos, they had some shots of the B&G display: in a close reach and a broad reach they were about 90-95% of what I read off the polars chart. Sure, polars are 'theoretical' but they are useful. No polars available I have to assume means a boat isn't as fast as competitors. And of course top end speed isn't why we buy performance cats, it's light wind sailing and good passage making. Cheers.
Those are good points but the one thing I disagree with is that "catamarans don't sink". If both hulls hit the reef and they fill with water, all the common cruising brands will sink (as seen one Sailing Dauntless and several other events) If you hit the reef you are likely to get leaks in the main hull and engine compartment and unless you have air tight voids, the weight of the cat makes it sink...They are such a simple addition and in cats you will never had up all that under sole space.
Not that anyone ever want to test the theory but I want to be sure to float if we sail over the top of a container, hit a whale or a reef...
Great video.
Cheers Andrew!
Look at Vision 444 made in South Africa , Knysna. As light and fast , but bigger n inside. Mine gets launched mid February 2022
lucky you Conrad!!! Well done. Yes there are several quality cat producers in South Africa that we have not been able to see or get the details about - so we will try and check out the Vision - thanks! Where are you sailing it because if we are nearby it would be great to have look / tour...
Very interesting and informative. Thank you.
I assume you have considered an aluminium Garcia Explocat 52 from New Zealand which draw 4.92 ft.
Or maybe you would like the ketch rigged Explocat 62.
Hey Des, Yes we ware hop\ing to do a tour of the Garcia Expolocat when we go to France as it is any interesting option! Keep watching and we should show that though the winter...
That kinetic you showed in the bigining was built here in Knysna South Africa I’ve been on that boat and it’s really nice
Is the seawind 1600 on the list - Sailing ruby rose are getting a seawind 1370 ?? - so many choices
We are reviewing the 1600 Seawind as the 1370 will be adequately covered by Ruby Rose, I am sure. The 1600 is the one with the lifting daggerboard so is significantly different from the 1370 too.
The Otremer45 absolutely lives up to the hype. I've delivered two and I've not sailed a better, Safer or faster catamaran. If you don't find it comfortable then you should stick to condomarans because there's always a compromise but on a Lagoon or a Leopard you may have wider bunks but I know which is safer and will get you there faster.
Great review! That’s quite the lead time 2026! Goes to show the demand for quality Cats. Look forward to seeing more reviews.
Ta
The early Danson designed Outremers were indeed performance catamarans. However, they were taken over by Grande Yachts who chose to retain the "performance" label while aiming the boats at a broader market place emphasizing luxury. (Seawind has done the same). This is a 9.6 ton dry displacement (45 foot) boat which is quite heavy. Yes, it will perform better than the charter boats (Leopard, for example) but it can't compare to the limited production Dazcats, for example.
Yes I don't envy the struggle for the boat builders that have to balance what the consumers are buying when they chose a boat that looks good in the shows but perfoms poorly or is constructed less well... They have to choose their target market too and decide what to make. Its a tough business.
Are many people spending 3/4 of a million dollars plus wanting to live on a race boat = not many. Are people spending said large amount of money willing to lose a portion of the performance for the mod cons of modern life in real beads, heads,shower enclosure. Fridges/freezer, power system = as many as the manufacturer can produce per year. Hmm seems to me to be a good business decision. Limited production = lack of orders.
Thank you for this great review. I love watching your videos. I am currently on a FP Elba 45 In Croatia, which is my first time on a catamaran. Try before you buy! It’s a really interesting and Informative experience. It doesn’t matter how many TH-cam videos you watch, and I’ve watched a lot, there is no substitute for actually getting on a boat and Sailing, sleeping and docking, I have an experienced Skipper with me for the week so it’s more of a sailing course than a sailing holiday! I have been lucky with the weather and had a lot of sun for late in the season, but now we are sheltering from a storm all cozy in a little port. I am going to do more chartering next year before I make a decision about which Catamaran to buy. I am keeping an open mind. Thanks again. Hope you find a new cat soon. 🤞
You are aboslutely doing the right thing to sail on them first - well done! Some people even buy a boat based on the dream and then discover they don't even like the lifestyle so sell up!
Barefoot Doctors Sailing so lovely to hear from you. Yes I totally agree. Better to roadtest your dream and then see if it is still the dream you want! So many dreams are based on fantasy. I am proud of me for actually doing the proper research and not just replying on watching sailing videos on you tube! Love to you both. X
I love the Outremers. The La Vagabonde model has by now been overtaken somewhat by newer cats of that type, including the new(er) Outremers, but if Riley and Elayna's epic ride (with Greta Thunberg on board) across the Atlantic in the midst of a series of November storms proved one thing it's that their boat could handle those extreme conditions. That expedition was in fact the birth of Riley's interest in speed as a safety factor. He strongly believes that a fast boat is a safer boat because it has a better chance of outrunning approaching storm systems. Which is exactly what he did all the way across the Atlantic to Portugal, and what ultimately, I think, led to him to go for the Rapido trimaran as his next boat. The Outremer is a quick boat, the Rapido is even quicker.
Agree 100%. 👍 And, Riley and Elayna are quite the adrenaline junkies. As are most of the Australian mates.
Yes the Atlantic crossing shows what the boat can do and what is is like to be on the Outremer in a storm.... Its a great series of videos to get a better sense of what it is like sailing in rough weather.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 I think Cat IMPI would disagree with that to some degree.
I am not a fan of the Outremers and I do not hold to the theory of SPEED as a safety factor. The majority of worldwide cruisers hold to the theory that a bluewater boat must be STRONG, reliable, capable, and COMFORTABLE. Check out Zatara and his views and you will see that the majority of experiences Keith and Renee have had proves that no one at the end of the day states, "Hey, so glad I was able to outrun that storm, getting here faster was awesome". It's just not the reality in the real world. In the real world, you hear people talking about how COMFORTABLE or uncomfortable the passage was for them.
And overwhelmingly the bigger, more stable, and slower boats win the day. We have excellent forecasting capabilities now and can avoid 95% of all major storms especially when we are NOT in a hurry to get somewhere. And that's the real issue at hand, as cruisers, we are in NO RUSH to get from point A to point B on the chart. We can sit and wait for the perfect weather window. Yes, squalls will still happen and come from nowhere, and a bigger and larger boat will handle them with no issues. A smaller and lighter boat will get tossed to and fro way more easily by these squalls and make for a very uncomfortable passage.
While I applaud La Vagabond and her crew for making a very rough Atlantic crossing, it was obvious to me it was not a comfortable passage and one that I believe most people if they had the choice would choose a bigger more capable, and a slower boat that would make for a more comfortable passage. They are a young crew, a MINORITY in the cruising world. The majority are older people in their 60's and they do not like being tossed around like that for the sake of speed.
@@MichaelBuck I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I am NOT a fan of Zatara's boat at all myself, but in the end there must be a reason why there's a market for that type of vessel. To each his own and all that.
Would be interesting to compare to newer generation 45ft cats like the Seawind 1370 when they are available. Specificaly performance vs liveable and storage area. Great to have so many choices.
We will be reviewing the Seawind 1600 and later will consider the 1370.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Check out Ruby Rose as they are in the process of acquiring a NEW Seawind 1370, one of the first hulls in the new design. Should be an exciting addition to the family of Seawinds.
The Seawind 1370 (over 70 orders now) has a displacement of 11 tonnes (24k lbs) - so its aprox 15-20% heavier than this Outremer. A Lagoon 46 is 15.5 tonnes and a Lepard 45 is 14.9 tonnes. The Seawind 1370 is aimed at comfortable performance cruising - it also has a lot more volume than the Outremer 45.
I've looked closely at the Seawind and everything is great ....apart from the position of their helm- no good IMHO having a protected helm in inclement weather if you cannot see forward. In a big spray, I have no doubt there will be big visibility issues in Seawinds with having to look through Salon windows. People may disagree, but its a deal breaker for me.
Great video and analysis! Congratulations. Why is Leopard not on the. Affordable/Roomy/Performance graphics?
I apologise if you’ve done it already but could you do an update video on the outcome of your insurance claim and any observations both good and bad of the process?
Still waiting - sorry. No payout, no investigation completed yet.... We will let everyone know when there is some outcome and actions.
So happy you guys are boat shopping…take your time…was the show what you expected?
Cheers to you both…from White Rock bc 🍷🍷
Thanks for the comment again Tom. Yes the show was what we expected mostly - shortage of new boat meant that many were second hand and less "deals" and less gear than usual I think due to the shortage of supply...
thanks for your videos. it will be interesting to see what you decide. I paid a deposit for my future Leopard 45 last month with estimated delivery in March'23 after I reviewed lot of other options, it would be really interesting if after all reviews you would choose Leopard again :)
Thanks Alex. Of course the other factor now is availability too though...
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 as far I know for Leopard 45 the waiting list is not that long. not sure about Leopard 50, but for Leopard 45 there are free slots with delivery in April-May 2023
I see there are a couple of leopard 50's for sale and they seem to have the extended rear deck but not sure of the layout - prices seem reasonable but why and what condition - good luck hunting
Thanks Jim, we are keeping our eyes open. We do not want to buy in Australia or SE Asia as we are trying to buy in the Med / Caribbean and head homeward...
Are those watertight sealed bulkheads also filled with closed cell foam (a good idea, if so)?
Polars are only as accurate as the input AND the quality of the VPP used. You can lie about the displacement (input a total lightship weight) and use a code zero and tweak the sail coefficients and suddenly it's sailing at 20 knots close reaching.
Yes that is right - the best polars are when they have both the lightship and full displacement figures so you can be more realistic for cruising estimates. Unfortunately the narrow hulled performance cats are most affected by weight and I am convinced that the majority of cruisers are overweight so get poor performance... Examples are cat cruisers that have all bilges and cupboards filled to the brim and then even create extra storage spaces for more weight.
Outremer is a definite step-up from the Leopard. Go big or go home 😂 Go for the Outremer 55! You should also consider the aluminium Garcia Explocat 52. Good luck with your next catamaran.
We are going to visit the Explocat yard in France to check them out and haven't been on a 55 Outremer yet.
I am a bad boy on the net, and they take me down, or scold me quite often. I just tell the truth. I find that people that shoot from the hip take pleasure in others that are frank. My hope is that you will make a rapid choice because of the times we live in. Building a new boat will take at least 2 years, but when the gcr hits soon all of the used boat market will be wiped over night. After the thing hits nobody will want to build boats unless they like the process. No one will have to work. Ask around, and investigate what I am hinting at.
Hi Rick, think we know what you are alluding to… perhaps interesting times ahead.
Nice Cat, but not as nice as Ultra Dash, are you not considering another Leopard 50?
Hi Tom, we want new to break it in our way, and there are no new 50s available, it is prudent we check out what is now in the market as there has been a lot of advancements in 3 years so we can have an informed decision.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Out of curiosity, how long did it take for you to get Ultra Dash, from ordering to taking delivery?
@@tomm9427 20 months - few months delay due to COVID closures
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 Cheers Guys, Keep safe, Look forward to your next video
I believe La Vagabonde is for sale ...
Not now; they're sailing her in the Caribbean. COVID has caused Rapido setbacks and building delays in Vietnam.
Yes it is, but we would like new as any new boat will come with things that need attention and we want to be involved with all the history of the boat if possible, we have had new and used boats and new is our choice. Thanks for your message.
Yes everyone’s plans are in a holding position ATM !
The only reason a company would not release Polars is that they would not help sell the product. If they would not help sell the product that means it is not good.
I don't think so. More likely most companies exaggerate their polar performance (its calculated). Good luck matching any boats performance to the polar. Realistically the polar should be done by an independent acredited company using the same formulas and variables.
Hey Glenn, That is the reason that is most obvious but T=the other reason is that the polars released by some brands are deceptive - they can do it on bare boats without the essential cruising gear and then you are not comparing apples to apples.... So not always a reflection of poor performance.
There were some polars for the Outremer 51 released to Ruby Rose on their 51 review and the surprising thing with those is that the downwind performance was quite poor with only doing about 12 knots on a broad reach in 20 knots. Again we don't know if those were based on sailing with Jib and main only (I assume it was) or did it include the use of asymmetrical spinnaker / Code D etc...
Too many variables to make a call as they should go downwind well too.
Have you heard of, or looked and an Xquisite X5?
Hi Sheila yes, we will feature it also in time. Thanks fir your message!
Outremer's policy is that you can bring a toothbrush onto the boat as long as you cut it in half.
I bags having the Bristle end!
thought it was pronounce "out remer". hahaha
We always struggle with the pronunciation but I think it helps if you put on a French scent and pose, wave you hands around a bit and say "ooot rrra merrrr" rolling the r's deep in your throat
I thought another TH-camr I watched stated that the escape hatches are no longer required ??
If true, can you have a Cat build WITHOUT them?
Good video guys and thanks
Hey Doug, Yes they can be built without it but that means that the boat will not get CE certification (for Euroipean approval) so can't go into charter but if if it for personal use you can do without. The boat I built did not have the escape hatches.
@@barefootdoctorssailing8567 , Have you guys looked at the new Balance 442?
@@douglasmontgomery6315 The Balance 482 review is the video coming out next!!!
Great review, but not the boat for you guys. Not quite classy enough for two classy people. Did I miss a surgery suite onboard? You've got to have room for that, lol.
Thanks Crystal! Yes we do need a bit more room and and some creature comforts.
Gun boat and Outremer are very much the same. Neighbouring boat builders.
Gunboats are much more expensive though...
I am not a fan of the Outremers and I do not hold to the theory of SPEED as a safety factor. The majority of worldwide cruisers hold to the theory that a bluewater boat must be STRONG, reliable, capable, and COMFORTABLE. Check out Zatara and his views and you will see that the majority of experiences Keith and Renee have had proves that no one at the end of the day states, "Hey, so glad I was able to outrun that storm, getting here faster was awesome". It's just not the reality in the real world. In the real world, you hear people talking about how COMFORTABLE or uncomfortable the passage was for them.
And overwhelmingly the bigger, more stable, and slower boats win the day. We have excellent forecasting capabilities now and can avoid 95% of all major storms especially when we are NOT in a hurry to get somewhere. And that's the real issue at hand, as cruisers, we are in NO RUSH to get from point A to point B on the chart. We can sit and wait for the perfect weather window. Yes, squalls will still happen and come from nowhere, and a bigger and larger boat will handle them with no issues. A smaller and lighter boat will get tossed to and fro way more easily by these squalls and make for a very uncomfortable passage.
While I applaud La Vagabond and her crew for making a very rough Atlantic crossing, it was obvious to me it was not a comfortable passage and one that I believe most people if they had the choice would choose a bigger more capable, and a slower boat that would make for a more comfortable passage. They are a young crew, a MINORITY in the cruising world. The majority are older people in their 60's and they do not like being tossed around like that for the sake of speed.
Speak for yourself michael. Performance catamarans like outremer and seawind and balance are doing well and are on the rise…things change, roll with it.
A big advantage is sailing at low speed. Performance cats can be capable of sailing at wind speed. You often will see Zatara motoring, whilst an outremer would sail. Personally I can't stand motoring, hate the vibrations, noise, smell and cost.
Another big advantage is the solid glass bottoms, strong enough to ride up onto a reef. One did this in tahiti and was fine. And as they said multiple sealed bulkheads. They are designed to do multiple cumnavigations, designed to last 50 years. Very strong and safe boats.
Congrats on the # of assumptions!
Get a Gunboat!