This kind of comments can be seen everywhere, and it's so funny because actually islam is still there and muslims are still there... it's not going anywhere lol. It's like it makes you happy to fantasise that islam is destroyed 😅
@Qui Creva Sp I don't like arrogant people who like to "show off" with their right views and humiliate others. I think even if islam was wrong, it's better to have false belief than having such moral problems.
Sarnai Ruža No, its NOT better to have false beliefs, because that is what is sending you to Hell for idolatry! Repent for you dirty prophet and his lies about Christ!
Internet is a killer for all religions. The less people know the more they believe. The story of Abraham don't make any sense either in a historical context, nothing support that he existed other than as fiction. th-cam.com/video/IeWaaUqnPGg/w-d-xo.html
Plot twist! What a discovery 🤯 my favourite period of history used to be ancient Mesopotamia but you and Dan and Mel are opening new doors and giving insight into centuries of history nobody has taught me before. I am on the edge of my seat with each new video!
Its normal satan not interested those who already lost..disbelieve Satan promise to misguide those belive in allah😄if not being test what they belief then how to know which one THE TRUTH among those claiming to be truth they not equal right??among these religion which one??true follower of GOD..and real GOD deserve to be worship..open mind..video about islam every where..trending,update etc..while your OWN RELIGION..not even can equal or surpass islam interm of number,attraction even being make video,website,book etc either in positif or negative way..weird right??it not even popular..etc..even you guys didnt care..your follower religion decrease,didnt read you own revelation,your GOD,impact church close..not obligate to pray etc..doesnt that weird??and islam..no matter what..being hammred from every angle..it getting increase..in number..popularity,ability etc..by itself..the more pressure..the more it appear if these religion not from GOD..could it be like that??
Abdoo Yahya lol nah mate, anyone with a brain cell can accept something we see in nature all the time. Unlike Islam, which has it’s very own trinity doctrine going on: Desperation, stupidity and blindness
I wish the Arabic speaking non-muslims would start reading and translating as much Arabic literature as possible. I'm sure much of their own material is damning.
I now have more than enough amo to disrupt lopesided debates I read across many muslim vs Christian fora.I hope Dr Jay Smith still recalls this remark from a mzlm scholar in response to a question from Dr Tom Holland,"so what?,we have 1.2billion followers... Elsewhere I recall voices from middle East saying " we don't care what you're finding out,the truth of allah is above that of human beings" ie they won't bow to "academic" truths!!
To think that millions made their pilgrimage to, most probably, the wrong Mecca. If I was a Muslim I would feel very betrayed and angry at my leaders. Pray that they find the truth soon in Jesus Christ, like Jay says "Come on home..."
Oh you need to angry to prophet adam bcs that place exist b4 he exist fyi b4 that kaaba not even in cubic form😁..or to abraham bcs he the one who remind and behind the pilgrimage muslim do now remember he rebuil it..mad at him..or previous prophet eg moses do pilgrimage there..prophet muhamad just last prophet..continue what they did..most of prophet not from erope or america..from which area??the are a lot reason why jerusalem or mecca not bulit in other places except..on certain land..bless land..jesus not even white😁or have blue eyes etc.
@nunaelena Moses would have stoned muhammad for his vile and pagan practices. We know that Jesus wasn't european and we know that He was most likely not white, but what even is your point? Muhammad was a white slave trader and sex trafficker according to bukhari/imam muslim and the principles for both are found in the qur'an. If the mecca of today was such a _"holy"_ site, how come even only a couple of years ago the kaaba was frequently flooded with SEWAGE?🤢How come people get sexually assaulted at hajj?🤮
@@user-us9iw6rt7b jerusalem also holy site..does war never happen there their temple who damage it muslim??its christian crusade??flood..ahh..covid 19 also effect to children of isreal even though their title chosen people😁there beliver who claim to be a beliver or muslim enter hell too??so what your point??most prophet not even among jew and isreal??when they exist??slave??😂one night stand,adultry,sex bussines what ever doesnt islam forbid it??emm only pre islam when they do sin etc..punishment need to free slave..even aperthied not like this..slave bilal ibn rabbah or summayah etc can enter heaven have high rank and be companion of prophet muhamad..do your religion have it?😁
Ur in Anatolia may be a reference to Urartu. Also, Jacob of Edessa says Ur of Chaldeans meaning there was another Ur (a more famous one... of Assyrians).
I seen that somewhere I just cant remember at this moment but I remember hearing that same thing that Abraham wasn't born in Iraq but in another Ur in the north its very interesting and it all kinda flows together
@@samuelmendez5435 I don't really believe Abraham was born in any Ur (Chaldeans or Assyrian). I think Abraham (Jews) migrated from India to Iraq (Ur) in 2100 BCE. The reason is that Abraham Story has too many Indian connections. Abraham -> Brahma Sara -> Saraswati river Hagar -> Gagghar river (India) & Harahvati river (Afghanistan) Judea -> Yadu The migration from North West India was due to drying up of Saraswati river. (This is the reason for calling Sara as barren). The exact date of Abraham seems to be 1950 BCE. (Because Abraham came after flood of Noah according to Old Teatament). The flood of Noah is related to the Tsunami in 1950 BCE that drowned the city of Dwarka (city of Yadu) on west coast of India .
I am getting a lot of reoccurring questions so rather than repeating myself I will answer them here and hope that most see it. 1. What about Jacob of Edessa using the word "Muslim" in the source mentioned prior to the 690s? Actually, the word he uses in Syriac is "mhaggraya". It is translated into "Muslim" out of convention. However, much of what we relate to being Muslim - belief and practice - comes much later, so this term (Muslim) is a misleading one if we assume it means "muslim" as we now understand it. A better term might be Abrahamist. 2. How does the Mecca (Ur) square with Petra (Mecca)? [Related questions I've been asked assume the Ur Mecca has a qibla etc.] First off, the Hijaz Mecca has conflated ideas from the various places I've mentioned over several videos: Petra (with its qibla and qaaba), the old Mecca (Abraham's birthplace), and Jerusalem. It is not clear when Petra started to get called Mecca too, all I know is the 741 Chronicle that refers to Mecca is clearly not talking about Petra. This Chronicle does not mention this place (between Ur and Carra/Harran) having a qibla or a qaaba. So the new Mecca took the name from this place, with the idea of it being linked to Abraham. The new Mecca took the idea of a kaaba and qibla from either, or possibly both, Jerusalem or Petra. If Petra had also the name Mecca at that time, then it would be very easy to see how these two places got confused and morphed into one at the new Mecca of the Hijaz. I hope that is clear. I want to also make clear I'm not suggesting that this Mecca near Ur had any other part in the formation of Islam other than the borrowing of its foundation myth for the new Mecca. [I'm not claiming Muhammad lived there or had visions there or was in a cave there.] 3. How does the Iraqi-Persian thesis correspond to Dan Gibson's theory? OK, so here is a suggested timeline, this is tentative and some dates may change if new info helps nail things down better: 602 Al-Hira : Iyas ibn Qabisah al-Ta'i (he was given the title or nom de guerre later of "Muhammad") is appointed co-governor of Al-Hira with Nakhiragan, a Persian. [We don't know where exactly he was born but a number of clues suggest he was Persian. Perhaps, he was of mixed Arab-Persian heritage. I don't think he was born in Mecca.] In 617, the Lakhmid ruler (Iyas ibn Qabisha al Tai) was ousted from Al-Hira by Azadbeh's Parsigs in 617AD against whom he thus began to plot his revenge. [The Islamic tradition covers up that he fell out with the Persian side but it is obvious that if he was ousted he wouldn't be too happy with the Persians or fighting on their behalf in the battle of Dhi Qar. Likewise, it is a clumsy coverup to suggest that his son was in Hira when Khalid took it over. Azadbeh had previously taken over Hira, so this again is a coverup so as not to identify that Iyas is Muhammad.] 622 Heraclius Liberates Cappadocia In the 660s, Sebeos tells us that when Heraclius captured Edessa in 622 the Jews fleeing from Edessa [Ur] met the Arabs in Tashkastan (northern Mesopotamia) . They Judaize the Ishmaelites into HaGarim. They meet Muhammad [Iyas] who gave rousing sermons of an Abrahamist flavour. He was an expert in Mosaic law. He managed to bring unity to the various clans. Thus this became the year the Believers (Jews, Nestorians and Sabians) settled their case. The first year of the Arabs. [This is the real reason for the year of the Arabs, not some Hijra event. If anything it was the Jews that emigrated, not Muhammad and not the Arabs, so this is a cultural appropriation of their story.] Dhū-Qār 624 [This date is based on a reliable contact "Joe" who contributes to my channel. There is a lot of scholarly dispute about when this happened but placing it in this year frees up a lot of holes in the narrative.] Ibn Abu Qabsah is said to have finally got his revenge against Azadbeh on the Day of Dhū-Qār just north of Hira a few months after Badr in 624. The conflicting reports that Iyas or his son were on the Persian side is not consistent with him having been ousted. It is in short, a deliberate hazing of the facts invented to hide his true identity and the fact that he was indeed actually working for Kavod II at this time. [The Islamic tradition has Muhammad saying that victory was achieved through him.] It is likely in this year (624), he retreated westwards to Petra to establish his base of operations. [This is where my theory ends and Dan Gibson begins, so I believe from this time until the 630s, he was mostly based in Petra. This is how I would reconcile both theories.] 634 Tayyaye d'Mhmt In 640, Thomas the Presbyter reported that the "Tayyaye d-Mhmt" were fighting with Romans 12 miles east of Gaza in 634. [This now makes perfect sense if he is working out of Petra.] 636 Muhammad likely died in 636. An early tradition says he was slain. [The much later tradition of poisoning seems to be a later fabrication perhaps designed to demonise Jews.] Our earliest Jewish sources give a mixed picture of Muhammad: some seem to hold out hope that he was a messiah like figure, while others consider him crazy and possessed. I do hope that helps. Please read this carefully as it is a lot to take in.
It may not have much relevance to the present topic but Muhammad Al-Idrisi created this map for a Christian king -king Roger the Second of Sicily.Roger's father, a Norman adventurer had helped kick the Muslims out of Sicily and his son was an incredibly enlightened ruler who allowed people of many different religions to live and work in his country.Idrisi himself had fled strife in Islamic Spain to find work and safety in this new Christian kingdom.The map was the most up to date of its time and helped Columbus and other explorers in their discoveries of the New World.
Seems like this could be relevant because if it was made for a Christian king, then that could change the motivations for centering it there. I could understand a common connection between Christianity and Islam through the story of Abraham. Also, does this more northern location match with any of the qiblas? That to me makes it less likely a location for Mecca than Petra.
Could it be that some of the problems in the story of the journey between Mecca and Medina come from using the wrong Mecca and wrong Medina. It would be interesting to posit possible places for the Medina story that line up with either Petra or the more Northern location.
This directly relates to a previous video I watched; where Jews were asked if they thought that Abraham built the Kaaba - Jews do not know much about the Kaaba; and so, thank you for the information and for the opportunity to learn through modern media, facts which were not available to us, years ago.
Didn't they simply put the birthplace of Abraham in the center? Just look at Google maps to that region and you'll understand the drawing a bit better. It is not Harran in the center. It is the extremely fertile valley of Harran that is between mountains. Not the city itself since it lays on a plane. They just made the valley look very small. And in that valley is also a place called Urfa (nowadays Sanliurfa). (Which also is on walking distance to Gobekli Tepe on a sidenote, and where they found the Urfa man statue) "According to Jewish and Muslim sources, Urfa is Ur Kasdim, the hometown of Abraham, the grandfather of Jacob whom God named Israel. This identification was disputed by Leonard Woolley, the excavator of the Sumerian city of Ur in 1927 and scholars remain divided on the issue. Urfa is also one of several cities that have traditions associated with Job." Harran would be a first stop for somebody travelling from Urfa to the Levant. EDIT : However digging deeper into the history of Harran there are some facts supporting Sneakers corner's theory. "The city became a bastion for the worship of the moon god Sin during the rule of Nabonidus in 556-539 BCE, much to the consternation of the city of Babylon in the south, where Marduk remained the primary deity..... Sin also had a sanctuary at the city of Harran, named E-hul-hul, "house of joys" (cuneiform: 𒂍𒄾𒄾 e2-ḫul2-ḫul2). The cult of the moon-god spread to other centers, so that temples to him are found in all the large cities of Babylonia and Assyria. A sanctuary for Sin with Syriac inscriptions invoking his name dating to the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE was found at Sumatar Harabesi in the Tektek Mountains, not far from Harran and Edessa." I think Islam came from this region. As did all Abrahamic religions. We have been focussing on the wrong areas. Petra also plays a role in this Sin cult : "The Wilderness of Sin or Desert of Sin (Hebrew: מִדְבַּר סִין) is a geographic area mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as lying between Elim and Mount Sinai. Sin does not refer to sinfulness, but is an untranslated word that would translate as the moon; biblical scholars suspect that the name Sin here refers to the semitic moon-deity Sin..... Another identification among some modern scholars, of Sinai as al-Madhbah at Petra, would imply that the wilderness of Sin was roughly equatable with the central Arabah" Remember that Muhammad's only miracle was 'splitting the moon'. Who else can do that except the moon god Sin in the mind of doubting followers? So what happened : The Harran region had a very strong Abrahamic influence. Petra had a very strong Mosaic influence. The area of Harran was where the cult center of Sin started. The area of Petra had an important sanctuary to the moon god Sin. Muhammad being of the Sin cult, put 1 and 1 together and saw that both Judaism and Sin cult had the same places of worship and origin and thought they were actually the same religion (but the Jews corrupted it by writing it out of their scripture). He probably thought the Sin cult originated from Ishmael and Judaism from Isaac, and created a hybrid Sin-Judeo religion. The Qiblas are pointing to the wilderness of Sin, just beneath Petra. Edit 2 : if Abraham came from Ur in Iraq, it would change nothing. It would actually accomplish his earlier Iraqi theory. Since Harran and Ur in Iraq were the mayor cult centres of Sin. However the crops, trees, rain, and green fields described in the Quran would fit much better in the Harran region
@Audrey O' Callaghan Even more evidence : "He is commonly designated as En-zu, which means "lord of wisdom". During the period (c. 2600-2400 BC) that Ur exercised a large measure of supremacy over the Euphrates valley, Sin was naturally regarded as the head of the pantheon. It is to this period that we must trace such designations of Sin as "father of the gods", "chief of the gods", "creator of all things", and the like. The "wisdom" personified by the moon-god is likewise an expression of the science of astronomy or the practice of astrology, in which the observation of the moon's phases is an important factor." Ramadan etc is all about the moon phases.
@@afrik000 Basic info : en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urfa en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harran en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_(mythology) en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilderness_of_Sin Deeper info : www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/origsin.htm www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Sin_(mythology) When actually reading more of this source I came across this : www.kanaga.tv/archaeology/harran.html "At that time, the cult of Sin still existed. Another late-antique religion of Harran was Sabianism. Its adherents worshipped Sin, Mars, and Shamal, the lord of the spirits. Women and men had equal rights, and everyone lived ascetic, refraining from several kinds of meat and groceries. After the arrival of the Islam, they probably went to live in the marshes of the lower Tigris and Euphrates, and are still known as Mandaeans." More reading of the following source I came across this : www.mondial-tour.com/index.php?page=9661d54ae875527b0ca58638519368da&submenu=48&dil=2 "Inscriptions indicate that Harran existed as early as 2000 B.C. The place is known to be one of the most important cult centers of that time. The temple of the moon-god Sin was here. Sin was one of the great gods of the Assurian-Babylonian pantheon. The roof of the temple was covered with cedar tree from Lebanon. During early periods Sin was represented with a long beard and a crescent above a horned tiara. This was transformed into a single crescent only during the following centuries. Worshipping Sin continued until 6th century A.D. in Harran. Harran became the capital city to Assurians during the reign of king Assurbanipal in the 7th century B.C. The Roman army led by Crassus in 53 B.C. was defeated by the Parthians in front of Harran and Crassus was killed. In 217 A.D. (April 6th), Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius Cracalla was murdered here while he was on his way from Temple of Sin to the palace. Sin was an important god of Romans. A citadel was built in the 14th century in place of the Temple of Sin. This lies in the south-west quarter of the town. The 8th century A.D. mosque called Great Mosque (Ulu Cami) which lies to the north slope of the hill. It dates back to the Omayad period. The tombstones of the Babylonian king Nabouid were found in this mosque and are on exhibition in the museum of Urfa today."
At first, I was going to say, "No way, Mel! If this is the real Mecca then why do the earliest Qiblas not face it (instead of Petra)". Then I remembered. The Qibla is directed towards the Kaaba not Mecca. It just happens to be that the Kaaba is in Mecca (whether Petra or the one in Saudi Arabia). I guess the next step should be to determine whether there is a good candidate in Mel's Mecca for the Zamzam well. I think in approaching this you would have to refer to Dan Gibson's work on Petra being the original Mecca. He goes through quite a bit of geography and placements of walled towns etc. to show that Petra fits the description (given by later writers) of Mecca whereas the the Mecca in Arabia does not. Also, how does Mel's Mecca fit into the trade route theory? Is this city likely to be at the centre of the trade routes? Remember, Muhammad was supposed to be a trader. Also, how does Medina & the Hijrah work into this particular placement of Mecca. One possible caveat: There may have been a city near Ur called Mecca but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was the only Mecca (just like there is a Moscow in Russia and in the United States). When dealing with Islamic history; we may be looking at a conflation of the histories of two, or more Meccas. For example, Muslims claim that Mecca is the oldest city in the world. Well, Mel's Mecca near Ur has a better chance of fitting that description than Petra or Arabian Mecca; although the archaeology of Petra does seem to go back several thousand years. Great accomplishment Mel, but you are not a Jedi Knight yet. That will only happen when Dr. David King attacks you for coming up with an idea that is "amateurish, non-scholarly . . . that is both offensive to Muslims and also an insult to Muslim and Western scholarship." That moment will be equivalent to King Arthur dubbing you a knight with his sword Excalibur. Appendix: Dr. David King Translator "an insult to Muslim and Western scholarship" = "Oh crap, here's another important historical fact I didn't know about (but should have)!"
I doubt it was much of anything, not even a hamlet. I imagine it as Abraham's home on his farm in the middle of the countryside, nothing more than that. Zamzam: yes, Petra is a good candidate for that. Muhammad was a trader but on the state level, not on the only Fools and Horses level. Southern Iraq would allow for that trade between Persia and Syria. Murad slated the Hijra idea in an earlier video. I think it was the Jews of Edessa, not Muhammad, that had the real Hijra in 622 - so a case of cultural appropriation.
A brilliant point, I can almost feel the tremors starting in the Islamic world. As for Dr. King, well, he absolutely spat his dummy out over Dan Gibson's awesome and thoroughly researched and factual thesis on qiblas!
Makkah, according to most Arabic lexicons, is from maka-a مكأ [which means to whistle], however this is not really the case. Makkah ends with a Ta-marbuta ة which is the Hebrew He ה. The tradition about the naming of Makkah is from the story of Ishmael and Hagar--who searched for water because her son was dying of thirst. While the baby Ishmael lay under a shrub, he began to strike the ground with his heel---hence, the actual root of Makkah is not the Arabic maka-a مكأ but the Hebrew nakah נכה which is used in the active participle for makkah מכה which means striking. It was this striking of his heel that the water began to gush forth--hence we have another Hebrew root in zamzam זמזם which is the humming and gurgling sound water makes as it gushes from the ground. The earliest name of Makkah was Bakkah, another Hebrew word בכה which means weeping. It was named that first for the weeping of Hagar over her dying son. Makkah does not mean "lowland" in Arabic.
@@bbn2195 let's not forget that after the Romans drove the Israelites out, most went to Arabia where they helped to convert the local Old South Arab tribes [Joktan/Qahtan] to Judaism--thus forming the largest Jewish kingdom outside Israel in History. It was the destruction of this Himyarite Jewish kingdom that was the focus of the Qur'an Surah called Fil [Elephant] which explained how Abraha--who was sent by Abyssinia to destroy the Himyarite control of Western and Southern Arabia--was defeated by being pelted by stones.
@@bbn2195 For someone knowlegable on that theme ( i am not on this one) it would be interesting to investigate the chronolgy of the surahs to check exactly WHEN he flirted the jews, the christians,that is the eastern ones and the western ones and the northern ones, the pagans etc , change of direction of prayers ..all of a sudden becca becomes numero uno and so on.
@@bbn2195 i agree but nevertheless, the Becca sura supposedly came 3 year into Medina or when he changed direction AND all of a sudden the bEcca becomes nr 1 in mankind. I would say: AHAH ! All the references to kaba and Mecca are of the Median period. AHAH ! The message becomes less Jewish i would say or anti jewish' . It would be interesting to identify the moment when he separates himself from christianity or christianties in their diffferent form and crosschecks events outside of the islamic narrative.
Hi, could you please explain why this map is in very modern caracters in latin alphabet, please? And how it could have been so perfectly preserved? Thank you.
According to Wikipedia The city (of Harran) was the chief home of the Mesopotamian moon god Sin, under the Assyrians and Neo-Babylonians/Chaldeans and even into Roman times. Has this the reason for the adoption of the Moon and Stars symbolism? And the desert to the south too?
The idea being the capital was old mecca but the place of prayer and kaaba was petra. Eventually they moved the old capital and the black stone to new mecca. I think todat the sauds moved the capital to Riyadh?
😁hey its not even weird they can put anywhere..as long islam have bad image you think they care??riyadh in hadith..place where fitnah(slander)of dajjal(anti christ) happen there..seeing arabs leader a.k.a muslim support non beliver also not weird they will against muslim..it been prophesied since 1500 years ago😂riyadh..its a najd place where not included in prophet prayer..even though they beg or ask prophet to pray for bless now you see why..it not include in prayer or praised😊even prophet never name their place or birth country as their family name..like s a u d.
yeah: the evidence Mel presents in this video about muslims in Iraq praying toward the West supports the idea of Petra being the ancien Mecca, while it contradicts the idea of Mecca in Turkey...
8:00 I took a screenshot of the map and drew two diagonals from the corners to check the center myself. When you do that you can see that Mel's lines are actually curved. My center with straight lines is a bit above where this little black spot is. Can someone else confirm that too?
@@j.r.qwertz I've received an updated one but thanks for the offer. The map is not critical. It is a little curious aside, but that raises the possibility that the old Mecca retains its importance for some time.
QUESTION: at the 5:00 mark, why does "Ur of the Chaldeans" not refer to southern/southeastern Mesopotamia rather than the region surrounding Edessa??? Did the Chaldeans migrate to the north? I'm confused!
Ah-so! I think I have found the answer to my own question: www.thetorah.com/article/ur-kasdim-where-is-abrahams-birthplace How, then, does one explain the latter part of the expression, namely Kasdim? As noted, the Chaldeans lived in southern Mesopotamia, but they were not native to the land, having migrated there in the early to mid-first millennium B.C.E. Where were they from before that? The most likely answer is northern Mesopotamia. The best evidence comes from the Greek historian Xenophon (431-354 B.C.E.), who mentions the Chaldeans as a warlike people blocking the way to Armenia (Anabasis 4.3.4), and as neighbors of the Armenians but at war with them (Cyropaedia 3.1.34). Xenophon further mentions the Chaldeans in connection with the Carduchi (that is, the ancient Kurds) (Anabasis 5.5.17). In fact, to this day, the term lives on within the Chaldean Christian community, which inhabits the region. An Aramean Area Further support for the claim that Abraham’s hometown of Ur should be located in northern Mesopotamia comes from the Aramean connection. Deuteronomy 26:5 describes Israel’s ancestors as wandering Arameans: אֲרַמִּי אֹבֵד אָבִי “A wandering Aramean was my father”.[16] The Aramean heartland is located in northern Mesopotamia. In fact, the Bible refers to the region in which Urfa is found as Aram Naharaim, lit. ‘Aram of the Two Rivers’ (Gen 24:10, etc.), namely the Tigris and the Euphrates. Genesis 22:21‒22 juxtaposes Aram and Chesed (~ Chaldea) as scions of the family of Naḥor, suggesting their location in northern Mesopotamia in close proximity to one another. Finally, the great Ur required no further appellation; the expression Ur of the Chaldees implies that we are not speaking of the famous city. In fact, northern Ur was likely established as a colony of the metropolis of Ur in the south and would thus naturally have been given a further appellation. A comparable case is how we say simply “London” for the great city of England, while we must state “London, Ontario” (named and founded during the years 1793‒1826) to refer to one of its outposts.
The people of Urfa have been claiming this for ages. Urfa is on walking distance from Gobekli Tepe. "According to Jewish and Muslim sources, Urfa is Ur Kasdim, the hometown of Abraham, the grandfather of Jacob whom God named Israel. This identification was disputed by Leonard Woolley, the excavator of the Sumerian city of Ur in 1927 and scholars remain divided on the issue. Urfa is also one of several cities that have traditions associated with Job."
Amazing! Take a look at this article about Gobekli Tepe, The world's first temple (kaba), in the very location at the centre of that map: www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gobekli-tepe-the-worlds-first-temple-83613665/ As seen on modern maps: images.app.goo.gl/C1QTXL2ZvKNEWbtj7
Is it possible to give a link to a high res image of the Muhammad al-Idrisi map or the zoom view which appears at 9:19, I haven't been able to find a high res version.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Idrisi#/media/File:TabulaRogeriana_upside-down.jpg Download it first and I would advise you to turn it upside down after you have read where Harran and Mecca is.
FIRST: the place of Ur dicated in the first map is wrong - Ur was near the modern Basra, in southern Iraq. EVEN WORSE, the interpretation of the map of the 12th century is totally wrong. Mel and Jay are wrong in identifying the Arabian peninsula: the peninsula in the center is the SINAI one, while the strip of water toward the North-east reepresents the RED SEA - that means that the Mecca indicated in this old map is in the area of PETRA, thus confirming the research of Dan Gibson
There were two Ur's, the famous one that you already know about, but there was a smaller Ur in the northernmost part of the fertile crescent. Some scholars have raised questions about which Ur was the homeland of Abraham (since Abraham's relatives all lived in the area of Haran in the north, see Genesis) but Ur "of the Chaldees" *should* refer to the southern Ur unless ancient writers became confused about the location of the Chaldeans (geography was an immature science in those days). mosaicmagazine.com/picks/history-ideas/2019/11/evidence-suggests-abraham-was-born-in-turkey-not-iraq/?print
"Ur of the Chaldees" -- now it makes sense: www.thetorah.com/article/ur-kasdim-where-is-abrahams-birthplace Kudos to George Bush, who had it right all along! (Read the article to see what I'm talking about.)
@@Speakers154. Well I am into new testament, I am sure truth can unravel if bible is kept at heart. I ain't promoting bible.bible(eg a read) is a guide.
@@asifbrettishmaelmakki9 What I meant was the story of the new Mecca was already there in Ibn Ishaq/Hisham, Al Bukhari and Al Tabari prior to the 12th century, but the tradition of about Ur's importance was kept strong all that time, despite the new narrative.
@@Speakers154. I understand as u say. On Al bukhari and friends. We are told their stuff(liturature) has travelled to us from 1200years ago. O ok nice.I will ponder that 🤔. Keepwell Mel and friends.
@@Speakers154. China reports are strong. It would be unfair to veiw the Chinese as liars due to suspicion with there documentation. And Muhammad did say "seek knowledge even from China". (the saying is something like what I have wrote).
@@michaelhughes7458 they hide it cuz they use the lies to exploit and use the people as pawns in their political games. It's madness. And I'm sure they eradicate any insiders who question them or come against them in the most horrific ways to keep the masses in check
A quick point, you could argue that the map is cantered on the birth place of Abraham and does not relate to the location of the original Mecca. But I don't know how important the birth place of Abraham was to the first believers.
@@taecart8083 40 years ago I told my friends that the Iron curtain would collapse, Germany will be united. And after that Islam will also collapse. They laughed at me. I was told that I read too many fairytales. 30 years ago the iron curtain collapsed. Now Islam is collapsing. Islam won't disappear, but plenty of their followers will leave. Islam has too many unrealistic myths to hold it together. People are more advanced and they search for reality. Medival beliefs can't brainwash everyone. Many Muslim people will seek the truth.
Colin Hartung yes. Is ironical that those supporting all these regressive ideologies seems to have no answers to what is happening within Islam. The same will happen to China. I’m changing the topic. The average Muslim must surely realise that it is time Islam with its regressive ideology is failing. The Quran is clearly the worst book ever written. Now that the evidences are stacking up that it is a collection of Gnostic, Talmud and Zoroastrian texts proves that it was only time that we found out. All the Bokaap Slumse must be panicking
Jay, ever thought about the fact that there are practicallt no shias in arabia? Theyre all up north in mesopotamia and further to the east! Such an early split (first few caliphs) would seem to indicate that that split was up north, not down south. Can you look into this?
There is plenty of Shi'a in Arabia, including KSA, but they keep to themselves. The split happened right at the presumed death of the prophet, as there was a major disagreement on the correct meaning of the prophet's request to be succeeded by "the closest to him", which can be Ali, his cousin and closest next of kin, or Abu Bakr, who was standing closest to him when he died. The Shi'a support the first explanation, and the Sunni the second. However, the main and more deeper issue is that Shi'a Islam had absorbed the rich preislamic Persian theology within it, while Sunni Islam is generally stayed dry and austere
@@bbn2195Youre not refuting what Im saying. I never said there were no shias in arabia, there just arent many. The most are around ur and to the east of it. Simple as.
@@timonrolleman54 Sorry if it sounded like I was refuting, I had no intention to refute or disagree, but rather to elaborate. You are absolutely correct, they are indeed concentrated within the realms of ancient Persia, more or less.
Not at the minute. I think they will set out to destroy me. They would hate to think an amateur, part-time hobbyist could come to this conclusion while they with their PhDs and who are full-time orientalists with a larger access to sources didn't but trotted out safe, consensus-friendly fayre for decades.😁
@@Speakers154 Sir, you are not an amateur, you are a practising historian. Yes, universities have done more to discredit historical credibility than Mohamed, but that's what happens when history comes into conflict with their ideology. It sounds like your reward is just taking part in what you enjoy, that alone will drive you forward. thank you for sharing what you do.
Peters' map is just scrap. It is distorting the world even more than the Mercator projection does. Don't forget that each projection of a sphere to a plane is a distortion, but Mercator is angle preserving and as such ideal for navigation, whereas Peters' projection is not.
Does Piri Reis say anything pointing in this direction too? (Ottoman admiral and cartographer. Arab name Hadji Muhiddin Piri Ibn Hadji Mehmed. World map from 1513.)
@@khalmakh2369 Um no. For them to be heretics, they must not only "introduce" new/false interpretations in orthodox doctrine, they must also claim that they still adhere to the doctrine. As far as i know, neither of them claims to be muslims. So they are by definition not heretics.
Dear Dr. Smith. As First thank you for your work. I think that there might be a logical error by the interpretation of the map. We have to consider also that the caliphate was in Baghdad and the center of Islam was in Damascus. That can have an influence of the centration of the map too. It's just an idea and I might be wrong.
@L Lawliet oh boy I guess you have not heard of Dr Richard carrier ... Unlike these wanna be TH-cam researchers he has a doctorate to back up what he says
@L Lawliet You're totally misrepresenting Ehrman's works if you mean to say that Bart Ehrman says that the Bible passes most of the historical criticisms its gone through, its verified certified first century (other than the Gospels) and accurate to boot. Ehrman believes in a historical Jesus, but He doesn't resemble the God Christians represent him to be.
@L Lawliet mate none of the contemporary historians mentioned anything abt these miracles. I am sure these events where dead walked etc would have found mention with headlines in all history books of the time but none mention. Josephus mention 50 years after supposed death n recoming is fake or disputed at best. If resurrection etc did not happen how is he different from any other preacher ... I couldn't find satisfactory answer to these ..unless ofcourse I have "FAITH"
If Mecca means "lowland" this also fits the northern location. Just north of this region are mountains that in Assyrian were called Urartu which in their Akkadian language means "highlands or uplands" later mentioned as "Ararat" by the Hebrews.
You attack Islam instead of focusing on your own beliefs. you ignore the mountain of evidence that you are wrong. That map is not even original, the words are in ENGLISH!!. Try learning a little before you post such nonsense.
No, this place never was used for a qibla nor had a qaaba, so no contradiction. It was purely revered as the birthplace/home of Abraham. (As I argued months ago, Islam grew out of Abrahamism.) Petra did have a qibla and kaaba. The two places were conflated in the new Mecca.
@@godhasgivenussalvationinth5223 I have a video on my channel on that. I will probably do a fresh one for Jay if he would like so we can tie up all the loose threads for everyone.
Thanks man. You make more people's wants to know about Islam. And this free information wil create more Muslim followers in this world. Whatever you said bad about Islam people's will search the truth and they will thanks you. Because you are the starting point for them to become the real Muslim. Alhamdu lillah.
You think? A recent survey of Iran finds that 59% of the population no longer believes in Islam. What do you think will happen if other Muslim countries follow suit? No one has anything to fear from the truth. Little of Islam survives the historical critique.
historically, archeologically and theologically, Islam FAILS and is FAILING continuously. this is why Muslims are leaving Islam by the millions. islam is collapsing thats the reality.
Greek historian Diodorus Siculus who died in the year 30 BC, (meaning he lived and died at least thirty years before the advent of Christianity), mentioned in his encyclopedia in the third part on page 217 a description of the Hijaz and the Arabian Desert region and said: The inhabitants of that region (meaning the Hijaz desert) around the Gulf, known as "Banizomenes" get their food by hunting wild animals and eating their meat, and there is also a "temple" which is sacred and highly revered by all Arabs This is the link from the same encyclopedia that mentioned the "holy temple" by the Arabs in paragraph 44, and the American Professor Charles Henry (Charles Henry) translated this encyclopedia from Greek into English and published it on the Internet at this link: penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3C*.html Second: The Greek historian Claudius Ptolemy, who lived and died in the first century, mentioned the existence of Mecca in his book "Geography", but he did not mention it as "Mecca", rather he said that its name is "Macoraba" (in English, Macoraba) which means the house of the Lord in the ancient Aramaic language It is located in the desert of Hijaz. The Greek historian Claudius Ptolemyy drew a set of maps in his book, and the map in which he mentioned the city of "Makoraba" or Mecca is Map No. 6, which shows the Arabian Desert and the Persian Gulf, and you can browse this beautiful map on the "World Digital Library" website at this link ( Or as in the attached picture No. 1) www.wdl.org/en/item/2916/view/1/1/ But what is the evidence that "Mecca" is the same as "Makoraba" that Claudius Ptolemy mentioned in his book and in his map? There are many historical sources and sayings of historians that support Claudius Ptolemy's claim that Macoraba is the same Mecca. Those two Jay and Mel A- they know nothing about the history or read Greeks history B- they hate Muslims and Arab world they do anything to lie C. They know the truth but try playing games and lie about every This is not scientific research.. For sure But views of Rachid Hamami's someone translated it to them
@@rattel1424 Ian D. Morris has already addressed these in this series of blog posts titled "Mecca before Islam". The long and short of it is that Diodorus Siculus indeed says there was a temple, but he places it much farther north, perhaps north of the Thamud. Ptolemy also speaks of a place called Makoraba, but we have yet to find a satisfying etymological or historical connection between Makoraba and Mecca. The onus is on those who say they are the same. www.iandavidmorris.com/mecca-before-islam-1-diodorus-and-the-kaaba/
@@TurtleMarcus The encyclopedia (Bibliotheca historicaa) compiled by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus, who died in the year 30 BC, (meaning he lived and died at least thirty years before the advent of Christianity). He mentioned in his encyclopedia in the third part on page 217 a description of the Hijaz region and the Arabian Sahara, saying: The inhabitants of that region (meaning the Hijaz desert) around the Gulf, known as “Banizomenes” get their food by hunting wild animals and eating their meat, and there is also a “temple” which is sacred and highly revered by all Arabs. This is the link from the same encyclopedia that mentioned the "holy temple" by the Arabs in paragraph 44, and the American Professor Charles Henry (Charles Henry) translated this encyclopedia from Greek into English and published it on the Internet at this link: penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3C*.html But who are the "Banizomenes" of the inhabitants of that region who have a "sacred temple", as historian Diodorus Siculus said? Banu Zomin are the descendants of the Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, and they are also known as "Banu Zamran", attributed to Zamran, the eldest son of the Prophet Abraham from his wife "Qaturah", whom he married after Sarah's death. Many historians have mentioned this saying: 1) Historian William Hazlittt in his "Classical Gazetteer" on page 67. 2) Professor Jan Retsoo, professor of ancient Arab history at the University of Gothenburg, in his book "The Arabs in Antiquity" on page 298, 3) The English historian Edward Gibbonn in his book Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, pp. 223-224 So, through the sayings and testimonies of historians, it is evident that the Banu Zimran or “Banu Zumin” inhabited the Hijaz region and they are from the Arabs, as the Greek historian said, and they are the descendants of the Prophet Abraham who lived in the Hijaz with the testimony of his history professors, and they had a temple that they venerate and greatly honor, and this sacred temple It is certainly the "Holy Kaaba" because the entire Hijaz region did not have any sacred temple except for the Kaaba, as historian Diodorus Siculus said.
Yeah I did it ... nah mate, Islam critics attack Islam (ideology), not Muslims (people). You’re clutching at straws anyway, just like all your lying scholars and apologists - they are who you should be angry with. They treat all Muslims like utter morons! Even if Jay & Mel are wrong about this, no one can honestly deny the other hundreds of issues Islam has. Momo, your “best example for mankind” qccording to your own sources, was a ped0 rapist murdering caravan-robber... So so so so sooooo many contradictions and holes 🕳 in 🕳the🕳narra🕳tive Islam is crumbling, I hope you see the truth 🙏🏼
As a Turkish person I can say that Şanlıurfa has a very significant history. Also the oldest discovered prayer place Göbeklitepe is also located in Şanlıurfa. It might be helpful for your research if you considered this fact too. Also in Şanlıurfa there is a place called Balıklıgöl where it is believed to be the place Prophet İbrahim was thrown into the fire.
Perhaps you address it in your earlier video but most archeology places Ur in the south of Iraq with the biblical Harran to the north and west. This would still place the original mecca in a different location which would have been in between Ur, Harran, Petra somewhere west of the Euphrates. Certainly north of the modern Mecca.
Absolutely. However, with this Ur, we get a much more precise location being pinpointed. But either way, it is definitely not the Hijaz Mecca being referred to.
@@Speakers154 I admit that I missed the first video where they make an argument for interpreting the map from what may have been an 8th century idea of where Ur was and that it would be more precise. I still think the author of the map has one concept of where Ur was and thus where Mecca was originally but that there are several documents which preserve the location of Ur. The Ur of the Chaldeans designation begins as a way to differentiate the original Ur from the Ur of southern Turkey and the two are sometimes conflated by medieval sources who don't realize that there are in fact two places called Ur by the time they are writing (one the ancient Ur in the south and the other the new Ur near Edessa which gets its name by association with Abraham) I find it interesting that using the Sumerian Ur, Petra (or something nearby) looks to be Mecca and using the northern Ur near Edessa another place surrounded by hills in a valley is found. It looks more and more like modern Mecca is chosen to conform to geographic descriptions of both Petra and the more northerly site but can't fully match the cultural and climatic descriptions. It would be very interesting to posit a possible Medina to match either of the two other sites for Mecca. It might be that some of the inconsistencies in the story of the move between the two places is the result of trying to make the stiry fit the new location of Mecca.
Gadara (Gr. ; a or the walled place). Suprisingly the map shows 3 walled places; Haran (Ur), Mecca, and Petra (Becca). Re-becca or De-meter is the mother of the Twin, the Dioscuri or the lesser gods. Gadara or bakki (beekah) is the valley surrounded by mountains. Like the egyptian valley of the kings it is a grave-yard or death-valley. It is the hiding place of the lesser gods cast out of heavens; the forbidden (secret) gathering place of Hubal and Al-usha. There is also a western Gadera in the city of Cadiz (ancient named Gadeira ; a walled place or fortress/stronghold). Where the altar of Meikart (phenician sea-god) was with the pillars of Hercules (Heracles). Biblical Samson also took place between the pillars and destroyed the philistine temple.
No, Petra is still on the table. This has been an attempt to explain the anomaly in the 680s source (Jacob of Edessa) and the 741 Chronicle. As I explained in the last video, the new Mecca is a conflation of many places and idea, so Petra is part of that mix.
Guys there is the Ur in Irak which is also considered the Birthplace of Abraham….wish you elaborate a bit more of the centre of this map and the location of Petra?
At 4:46 you guys have got Ur a hell of a long way from the actual city of Ur which was in southern Mesopotamia. You're going to have to back this up. I enjoy your work but the location of Ur is pretty much carved in stone. Was Edessa referred to as Ur somewhere? How can you put Ur in Armenia?
I have been to Ur, called Urfa today and went to the cave that they say Abraham was born and drank some water from there. They had a group of Muslims who were vigorously chanting/ singing in front. Very interesting
Attributing a city in southeast Anatolia to Abraham actually makes perfect sense, since Abraham moved with his father Terah from Ur to Haran, which is right there in southeast Anatolia. I had always thought this was the Ur in Mesopotamia and hadn't heard of the Edessa identification with Ur, but this makes even more sense. If Edessa is the "Ur of the Chaldees", then Abraham's migration is almost a straight line south, from Edessa to Haran (with this hypothesized Abrahamic Mecca in between) and then continuing south, perhaps to visit his cousin Lot in Sodom, and then on to Canaan. This also makes sense of the fact that Arphaxad, the ancestor of Terah and Abraham, is traditionally associated as an ancestor of the people who live in Anatolia. He probably settled there with a portion of the Semites after the flood, creating that association, even if most of his descendants eventually migrated elsewhere.
Europe isn't in the centre of the map that you show. Africa is in the centre. The world map frame is the longitude that cuts the least land mass so that the majority continental mass is centred within the frame. The latitude centre of the frame is the equator, zero latitude. Modern world maps are nearly always Mecator projections based on this frame because it shows the most populated area of the earth with the least distortion and disruption. It is not for Eurocentric reasons at all, it's just the most practical solution for the majority of the worlds population. The polar regions can't be shown as the projection becomes infinity distorted at the poles making it impossible to project. However, there is also less interest in uninhabitable regions which are generally mapped in more appropriate projections for those regions. Maps are framed the show the area of interest and projected according to their purpose. Each projection of the earths spheroid onto a flat map must by definition distort some properties. We have a choice about which properties get distorted and which are held true. The purpose of the map prioritises the properties to be held true and that determines the projection used according to what was historically available at the time. If your going to make comments about maps, how about asking a cartographer instead of talking out of your ignorance.
I found a place called Mamuca. Seems a small village on a hill. The name is interesting though, as it is co similar to the Indoeuropean world for mother (means it even in today's Romanian). There were also some Indoeuropean language spoken in Anatolia. And Mecca is called the mother of the cities. Just associating randomly.
The lines are purely to help you see it is at the center. If I continued them into the center, you would be complaining that I have covered up what it says.
@@Speakers154 I understand that they are not continued because of that. But if I try to bridge the gap then that can't be done: the lines aren't aligned.
I like your poetry Jay! That is *really* interesting! I see that there are a lot of names on that map, do any line up with muslim/Persian-arab writings? How about in that area today, are there names that point back to the history of that area? And _why_ would they draw the map southwards? Is it because they occupied pre-dominantly the south? Does the terrain line up with any "arab" battles/history other than the "mecca in the valley" -- what is the vegetation like there? What about the real history of Abraham -- does it line up with this area from other traditions?
For anybody wanting to get a better grip, extending the horizon and generally lay some foundation to the history, mindset and features from the Mesopotamian part of the world, the video "The Sumerians - The fall of the first cities" might be a nice starting point. It's about the Sumerian civilisation, and there are a few details here and there that might shed some light on some of the later history in this area. Even though the Sumerians fell at about the same time as the last mammoths around 1700 BC, they shaped the times to come. They were followed by the Assyrians, Babylonians and other peoples that are of a more direct interest, if one is to understand the current situation in this area of the world. (th-cam.com/video/d2lJUOv0hLA/w-d-xo.html)
When Europeans made their way to America, they named their towns after places in their native lands. Aberdeen, New York, New England, Hamilton, London, etc. Do you think someone fleeing from that area might have transferred the name Mecca from the North to where they moved to and used the same name?
@@Peter-xf9jy No definite proof to that, as there were several Urs, but Urfa has this longstanding abrahamic tradition: www.showcaves.com/english/tr/caves/Abraham.html
Greek historian Diodorus Siculus who died in the year 30 BC, (meaning he lived and died at least thirty years before the advent of Christianity), mentioned in his encyclopedia in the third part on page 217 a description of the Hijaz and the Arabian Desert region and said: The inhabitants of that region (meaning the Hijaz desert) around the Gulf, known as "Banizomenes" get their food by hunting wild animals and eating their meat, and there is also a "temple" which is sacred and highly revered by all Arabs This is the link from the same encyclopedia that mentioned the "holy temple" by the Arabs in paragraph 44, and the American Professor Charles Henry (Charles Henry) translated this encyclopedia from Greek into English and published it on the Internet at this link: penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3C*.html Second: The Greek historian Claudius Ptolemy, who lived and died in the first century, mentioned the existence of Mecca in his book "Geography", but he did not mention it as "Mecca", rather he said that its name is "Macoraba" (in English, Macoraba) which means the house of the Lord in the ancient Aramaic language It is located in the desert of Hijaz. The Greek historian Claudius Ptolemyy drew a set of maps in his book, and the map in which he mentioned the city of "Makoraba" or Mecca is Map No. 6, which shows the Arabian Desert and the Persian Gulf, and you can browse this beautiful map on the "World Digital Library" website at this link ( Or as in the attached picture No. 1) www.wdl.org/en/item/2916/view/1/1/ But what is the evidence that "Mecca" is the same as "Makoraba" that Claudius Ptolemy mentioned in his book and in his map? There are many historical sources and sayings of historians that support Claudius Ptolemy's claim that Macoraba is the same Mecca. Those two Jay and Mel A- they know nothing about the history or read Greeks history B- they hate Muslims and Arab world they do anything to lie C. They know the truth but try playing games and lie about every This is not scientific research.. For sure But views of Rachid Hamami's someone translated it to them Keep praying.. Because holy spirit always looks for truth not lies
What is this guy talking about? Chaldean Ur is not Edessa, it's in southern Iraq. Between Chaldean Ur and Carra is the edge of the Euphrates-Arabian desert.
The internet and social media are burying Islam before our eyes. Wonderful work, bruddahs.
This kind of comments can be seen everywhere, and it's so funny because actually islam is still there and muslims are still there... it's not going anywhere lol. It's like it makes you happy to fantasise that islam is destroyed 😅
Sarnai Ruža Were you happy when the USSR fell?
@Qui Creva Sp I don't like arrogant people who like to "show off" with their right views and humiliate others. I think even if islam was wrong, it's better to have false belief than having such moral problems.
Sarnai Ruža No, its NOT better to have false beliefs, because that is what is sending you to Hell for idolatry! Repent for you dirty prophet and his lies about Christ!
Internet is a killer for all religions. The less people know the more they believe.
The story of Abraham don't make any sense either in a historical context, nothing support that he existed other than as fiction.
th-cam.com/video/IeWaaUqnPGg/w-d-xo.html
Plot twist! What a discovery 🤯 my favourite period of history used to be ancient Mesopotamia but you and Dan and Mel are opening new doors and giving insight into centuries of history nobody has taught me before. I am on the edge of my seat with each new video!
Islam is hammered from every angle, historically, geographically, theologically, literally, etc,etc.
Its normal satan not interested those who already lost..disbelieve Satan promise to misguide those belive in allah😄if not being test what they belief then how to know which one THE TRUTH among those claiming to be truth they not equal right??among these religion which one??true follower of GOD..and real GOD deserve to be worship..open mind..video about islam every where..trending,update etc..while your OWN RELIGION..not even can equal or surpass islam interm of number,attraction even being make video,website,book etc either in positif or negative way..weird right??it not even popular..etc..even you guys didnt care..your follower religion decrease,didnt read you own revelation,your GOD,impact church close..not obligate to pray etc..doesnt that weird??and islam..no matter what..being hammred from every angle..it getting increase..in number..popularity,ability etc..by itself..the more pressure..the more it appear if these religion not from GOD..could it be like that??
So this cannot be a fabrication
So many Muslims turning themselves inside out to try & defend the ever-growing giant black hole that is 🕳Islam 🕳
SaltDawgette no that would be the Christians trying to explain the trinity.lol.
Abdoo Yahya lol nah mate, anyone with a brain cell can accept something we see in nature all the time.
Unlike Islam, which has it’s very own trinity doctrine going on:
Desperation, stupidity and blindness
I wish the Arabic speaking non-muslims would start reading and translating as much Arabic literature as possible. I'm sure much of their own material is damning.
True.
I now have more than enough amo to disrupt lopesided debates I read across many muslim vs Christian fora.I hope Dr Jay Smith still recalls this remark from a mzlm scholar in response to a question from Dr Tom Holland,"so what?,we have 1.2billion followers...
Elsewhere I recall voices from middle East saying " we don't care what you're finding out,the truth of allah is above that of human beings" ie they won't bow to "academic" truths!!
They need to contact the Chaldean federation in Michigan
@@ProphetGoogle explain?
TruthDefenders we are Chaldeans that speak Aramaic and Arabic the Chaldean federation has lots of info about the old Ur Iraq ext ext
It's looking more and more like multiple traditions from multiple locations that were finally gathered together in order to create a single narrative.
Hole'y ...... s###. You mean islam may be based on a lie? You mean islamic leaders DON'T tell the hole truth?
@@craigmatchett6953 They do tell the hole truth, see comment from WT T
hole as opposed to whole.
What a discovery of a great map.
If I were a Muslim than it would hurt me a lot . Thanks you guys and may LORD love and protection be with you guys .
To think that millions made their pilgrimage to, most probably, the wrong Mecca. If I was a Muslim I would feel very betrayed and angry at my leaders. Pray that they find the truth soon in Jesus Christ, like Jay says "Come on home..."
Oh you need to angry to prophet adam bcs that place exist b4 he exist fyi b4 that kaaba not even in cubic form😁..or to abraham bcs he the one who remind and behind the pilgrimage muslim do now remember he rebuil it..mad at him..or previous prophet eg moses do pilgrimage there..prophet muhamad just last prophet..continue what they did..most of prophet not from erope or america..from which area??the are a lot reason why jerusalem or mecca not bulit in other places except..on certain land..bless land..jesus not even white😁or have blue eyes etc.
@nunaelena Moses would have stoned muhammad for his vile and pagan practices. We know that Jesus wasn't european and we know that He was most likely not white, but what even is your point? Muhammad was a white slave trader and sex trafficker according to bukhari/imam muslim and the principles for both are found in the qur'an. If the mecca of today was such a _"holy"_ site, how come even only a couple of years ago the kaaba was frequently flooded with SEWAGE?🤢How come people get sexually assaulted at hajj?🤮
@@user-us9iw6rt7b jerusalem also holy site..does war never happen there their temple who damage it muslim??its christian crusade??flood..ahh..covid 19 also effect to children of isreal even though their title chosen people😁there beliver who claim to be a beliver or muslim enter hell too??so what your point??most prophet not even among jew and isreal??when they exist??slave??😂one night stand,adultry,sex bussines what ever doesnt islam forbid it??emm only pre islam when they do sin etc..punishment need to free slave..even aperthied not like this..slave bilal ibn rabbah or summayah etc can enter heaven have high rank and be companion of prophet muhamad..do your religion have it?😁
@@GardeniaInc Do you understand the point of this research by Mel? There was no historical Mohammed...
Oh, there was no historical Jesus as well...
@@GardeniaInc Do you know why there's CRUSADE? Ask yourself? 😂
Tkx for sharing Mel n Jay. Appreciate the hard persistent work. Interesting to get Dan Gibson's input on this.
Please add caption in Arabic or urdu to be understandable for majority of muslims
Those among the viewers who can do that, please do that for others so they get the truth.
Thanks Jay your doing an excellent JOB with your blessed companions May God bless you and Mel.
Thank you guys!
Keep at it and God Bless You all,,,, This is so facinating
You guys are boggling my mind! 😳
That's wonderful! Your presentations rejoice!
Astonishing discovery. Thank you very much. God bless your endeavors.
Ur in Anatolia may be a reference to Urartu. Also, Jacob of Edessa says Ur of Chaldeans meaning there was another Ur (a more famous one... of Assyrians).
I seen that somewhere I just cant remember at this moment but I remember hearing that same thing that Abraham wasn't born in Iraq but in another Ur in the north its very interesting and it all kinda flows together
@@samuelmendez5435 I don't really believe Abraham was born in any Ur (Chaldeans or Assyrian).
I think Abraham (Jews) migrated from India to Iraq (Ur) in 2100 BCE.
The reason is that Abraham Story has too many Indian connections.
Abraham -> Brahma
Sara -> Saraswati river
Hagar -> Gagghar river (India) & Harahvati river (Afghanistan)
Judea -> Yadu
The migration from North West India was due to drying up of Saraswati river. (This is the reason for calling Sara as barren).
The exact date of Abraham seems to be 1950 BCE. (Because Abraham came after flood of Noah according to Old Teatament). The flood of Noah is related to the Tsunami in 1950 BCE that drowned the city of Dwarka (city of Yadu) on west coast of India .
I am getting a lot of reoccurring questions so rather than repeating myself I will answer them here and hope that most see it.
1. What about Jacob of Edessa using the word "Muslim" in the source mentioned prior to the 690s?
Actually, the word he uses in Syriac is "mhaggraya". It is translated into "Muslim" out of convention. However, much of what we relate to being Muslim - belief and practice - comes much later, so this term (Muslim) is a misleading one if we assume it means "muslim" as we now understand it. A better term might be Abrahamist.
2. How does the Mecca (Ur) square with Petra (Mecca)? [Related questions I've been asked assume the Ur Mecca has a qibla etc.]
First off, the Hijaz Mecca has conflated ideas from the various places I've mentioned over several videos: Petra (with its qibla and qaaba), the old Mecca (Abraham's birthplace), and Jerusalem. It is not clear when Petra started to get called Mecca too, all I know is the 741 Chronicle that refers to Mecca is clearly not talking about Petra. This Chronicle does not mention this place (between Ur and Carra/Harran) having a qibla or a qaaba. So the new Mecca took the name from this place, with the idea of it being linked to Abraham. The new Mecca took the idea of a kaaba and qibla from either, or possibly both, Jerusalem or Petra. If Petra had also the name Mecca at that time, then it would be very easy to see how these two places got confused and morphed into one at the new Mecca of the Hijaz. I hope that is clear. I want to also make clear I'm not suggesting that this Mecca near Ur had any other part in the formation of Islam other than the borrowing of its foundation myth for the new Mecca. [I'm not claiming Muhammad lived there or had visions there or was in a cave there.]
3. How does the Iraqi-Persian thesis correspond to Dan Gibson's theory?
OK, so here is a suggested timeline, this is tentative and some dates may change if new info helps nail things down better:
602 Al-Hira
: Iyas ibn Qabisah al-Ta'i (he was given the title or nom de guerre later of "Muhammad") is appointed co-governor of Al-Hira with Nakhiragan, a Persian. [We don't know where exactly he was born but a number of clues suggest he was Persian. Perhaps, he was of mixed Arab-Persian heritage. I don't think he was born in Mecca.]
In 617, the Lakhmid ruler (Iyas ibn Qabisha al Tai) was ousted from Al-Hira by Azadbeh's Parsigs in 617AD against whom he thus began to plot his revenge.
[The Islamic tradition covers up that he fell out with the Persian side but it is obvious that if he was ousted he wouldn't be too happy with the Persians or fighting on their behalf in the battle of Dhi Qar. Likewise, it is a clumsy coverup to suggest that his son was in Hira when Khalid took it over. Azadbeh had previously taken over Hira, so this again is a coverup so as not to identify that Iyas is Muhammad.]
622 Heraclius Liberates Cappadocia
In the 660s, Sebeos tells us that when Heraclius captured Edessa in 622 the Jews fleeing from Edessa [Ur] met the Arabs in Tashkastan (northern Mesopotamia) . They Judaize the Ishmaelites into HaGarim. They meet Muhammad [Iyas] who gave rousing sermons of an Abrahamist flavour. He was an expert in Mosaic law. He managed to bring unity to the various clans. Thus this became the year the Believers (Jews, Nestorians and Sabians) settled their case. The first year of the Arabs.
[This is the real reason for the year of the Arabs, not some Hijra event. If anything it was the Jews that emigrated, not Muhammad and not the Arabs, so this is a cultural appropriation of their story.]
Dhū-Qār 624
[This date is based on a reliable contact "Joe" who contributes to my channel. There is a lot of scholarly dispute about when this happened but placing it in this year frees up a lot of holes in the narrative.]
Ibn Abu Qabsah is said to have finally got his revenge against Azadbeh on the Day of Dhū-Qār just north of Hira a few months after Badr in 624.
The conflicting reports that Iyas or his son were on the Persian side is not consistent with him having been ousted. It is in short, a deliberate hazing of the facts invented to hide his true identity and the fact that he was indeed actually working for Kavod II at this time.
[The Islamic tradition has Muhammad saying that victory was achieved through him.]
It is likely in this year (624), he retreated westwards to Petra to establish his base of operations. [This is where my theory ends and Dan Gibson begins, so I believe from this time until the 630s, he was mostly based in Petra. This is how I would reconcile both theories.]
634 Tayyaye d'Mhmt
In 640, Thomas the Presbyter reported that the "Tayyaye d-Mhmt" were fighting with Romans 12 miles east of Gaza in 634.
[This now makes perfect sense if he is working out of Petra.]
636 Muhammad likely died in 636. An early tradition says he was slain. [The much later tradition of poisoning seems to be a later fabrication perhaps designed to demonise Jews.] Our earliest Jewish sources give a mixed picture of Muhammad: some seem to hold out hope that he was a messiah like figure, while others consider him crazy and possessed.
I do hope that helps. Please read this carefully as it is a lot to take in.
please do a DNA test from his body parts if available
Could the Mecca in Iraq have been the modern Karbala?
@Бастин Џибер I will ask Jay to do so. It is his channel.
It may not have much relevance to the present topic but Muhammad Al-Idrisi created this map for a Christian king -king Roger the Second of Sicily.Roger's father, a Norman adventurer had helped kick the Muslims out of Sicily and his son was an incredibly enlightened ruler who allowed people of many different religions to live and work in his country.Idrisi himself had fled strife in Islamic Spain to find work and safety in this new Christian kingdom.The map was the most up to date of its time and helped Columbus and other explorers in their discoveries of the New World.
Seems like this could be relevant because if it was made for a Christian king, then that could change the motivations for centering it there. I could understand a common connection between Christianity and Islam through the story of Abraham. Also, does this more northern location match with any of the qiblas? That to me makes it less likely a location for Mecca than Petra.
Could it be that some of the problems in the story of the journey between Mecca and Medina come from using the wrong Mecca and wrong Medina. It would be interesting to posit possible places for the Medina story that line up with either Petra or the more Northern location.
Dr.Jay Smith can you recommend please a university or college for a bachelor's degree in theology?
New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary
This directly relates to a previous video I watched; where Jews were asked if they thought that Abraham built the Kaaba - Jews do not know much about the Kaaba; and so, thank you for the information and for the opportunity to learn through modern media, facts which were not available to us, years ago.
Didn't they simply put the birthplace of Abraham in the center? Just look at Google maps to that region and you'll understand the drawing a bit better. It is not Harran in the center. It is the extremely fertile valley of Harran that is between mountains. Not the city itself since it lays on a plane. They just made the valley look very small. And in that valley is also a place called Urfa (nowadays Sanliurfa). (Which also is on walking distance to Gobekli Tepe on a sidenote, and where they found the Urfa man statue)
"According to Jewish and Muslim sources, Urfa is Ur Kasdim, the hometown of Abraham, the grandfather of Jacob whom God named Israel. This identification was disputed by Leonard Woolley, the excavator of the Sumerian city of Ur in 1927 and scholars remain divided on the issue. Urfa is also one of several cities that have traditions associated with Job."
Harran would be a first stop for somebody travelling from Urfa to the Levant.
EDIT : However digging deeper into the history of Harran there are some facts supporting Sneakers corner's theory.
"The city became a bastion for the worship of the moon god Sin during the rule of Nabonidus in 556-539 BCE, much to the consternation of the city of Babylon in the south, where Marduk remained the primary deity.....
Sin also had a sanctuary at the city of Harran, named E-hul-hul, "house of joys" (cuneiform: 𒂍𒄾𒄾 e2-ḫul2-ḫul2). The cult of the moon-god spread to other centers, so that temples to him are found in all the large cities of Babylonia and Assyria. A sanctuary for Sin with Syriac inscriptions invoking his name dating to the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE was found at Sumatar Harabesi in the Tektek Mountains, not far from Harran and Edessa."
I think Islam came from this region. As did all Abrahamic religions. We have been focussing on the wrong areas. Petra also plays a role in this Sin cult :
"The Wilderness of Sin or Desert of Sin (Hebrew: מִדְבַּר סִין) is a geographic area mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as lying between Elim and Mount Sinai. Sin does not refer to sinfulness, but is an untranslated word that would translate as the moon; biblical scholars suspect that the name Sin here refers to the semitic moon-deity Sin.....
Another identification among some modern scholars, of Sinai as al-Madhbah at Petra, would imply that the wilderness of Sin was roughly equatable with the central Arabah"
Remember that Muhammad's only miracle was 'splitting the moon'. Who else can do that except the moon god Sin in the mind of doubting followers?
So what happened : The Harran region had a very strong Abrahamic influence. Petra had a very strong Mosaic influence.
The area of Harran was where the cult center of Sin started. The area of Petra had an important sanctuary to the moon god Sin.
Muhammad being of the Sin cult, put 1 and 1 together and saw that both Judaism and Sin cult had the same places of worship and origin and thought they were actually the same religion (but the Jews corrupted it by writing it out of their scripture). He probably thought the Sin cult originated from Ishmael and Judaism from Isaac, and created a hybrid Sin-Judeo religion.
The Qiblas are pointing to the wilderness of Sin, just beneath Petra.
Edit 2 : if Abraham came from Ur in Iraq, it would change nothing. It would actually accomplish his earlier Iraqi theory. Since Harran and Ur in Iraq were the mayor cult centres of Sin. However the crops, trees, rain, and green fields described in the Quran would fit much better in the Harran region
@Audrey O' Callaghan Even more evidence :
"He is commonly designated as En-zu, which means "lord of wisdom". During the period (c. 2600-2400 BC) that Ur exercised a large measure of supremacy over the Euphrates valley, Sin was naturally regarded as the head of the pantheon. It is to this period that we must trace such designations of Sin as "father of the gods", "chief of the gods", "creator of all things", and the like. The "wisdom" personified by the moon-god is likewise an expression of the science of astronomy or the practice of astrology, in which the observation of the moon's phases is an important factor."
Ramadan etc is all about the moon phases.
Fascinating, please provide sources or point to a good place where one can find out more.
That could be a reason why the South is the top of the map. When reading the map one would orientate it facing south.
@@afrik000 Basic info :
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urfa
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harran
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_(mythology)
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilderness_of_Sin
Deeper info :
www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/origsin.htm
www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Sin_(mythology)
When actually reading more of this source I came across this :
www.kanaga.tv/archaeology/harran.html
"At that time, the cult of Sin still existed. Another late-antique religion of Harran was Sabianism. Its adherents worshipped Sin, Mars, and Shamal, the lord of the spirits. Women and men had equal rights, and everyone lived ascetic, refraining from several kinds of meat and groceries. After the arrival of the Islam, they probably went to live in the marshes of the lower Tigris and Euphrates, and are still known as Mandaeans."
More reading of the following source I came across this :
www.mondial-tour.com/index.php?page=9661d54ae875527b0ca58638519368da&submenu=48&dil=2
"Inscriptions indicate that Harran existed as early as 2000 B.C. The place is known to be one of the most important cult centers of that time. The temple of the moon-god Sin was here. Sin was one of the great gods of the Assurian-Babylonian pantheon. The roof of the temple was covered with cedar tree from Lebanon. During early periods Sin was represented with a long beard and a crescent above a horned tiara. This was transformed into a single crescent only during the following centuries. Worshipping Sin continued until 6th century A.D. in Harran.
Harran became the capital city to Assurians during the reign of king Assurbanipal in the 7th century B.C.
The Roman army led by Crassus in 53 B.C. was defeated by the Parthians in front of Harran and Crassus was killed.
In 217 A.D. (April 6th), Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius Cracalla was murdered here while he was on his way from Temple of Sin to the palace. Sin was an important god of Romans.
A citadel was built in the 14th century in place of the Temple of Sin. This lies in the south-west quarter of the town.
The 8th century A.D. mosque called Great Mosque (Ulu Cami) which lies to the north slope of the hill. It dates back to the Omayad period. The tombstones of the Babylonian king Nabouid were found in this mosque and are on exhibition in the museum of Urfa today."
@@colinhartung8952 I personally don't think so. North-South orientation of maps is something pretty recent.
I’m humbled. Fantastic job.
I foresee, some day MH will poke questions on the location of Mecca to some Western scholar and burst open the truth!!
Wallahi!!
At first, I was going to say, "No way, Mel! If this is the real Mecca then why do the earliest Qiblas not face it (instead of Petra)". Then I remembered. The Qibla is directed towards the Kaaba not Mecca. It just happens to be that the Kaaba is in Mecca (whether Petra or the one in Saudi Arabia).
I guess the next step should be to determine whether there is a good candidate in Mel's Mecca for the Zamzam well. I think in approaching this you would have to refer to Dan Gibson's work on Petra being the original Mecca. He goes through quite a bit of geography and placements of walled towns etc. to show that Petra fits the description (given by later writers) of Mecca whereas the the Mecca in Arabia does not. Also, how does Mel's Mecca fit into the trade route theory? Is this city likely to be at the centre of the trade routes? Remember, Muhammad was supposed to be a trader. Also, how does Medina & the Hijrah work into this particular placement of Mecca.
One possible caveat: There may have been a city near Ur called Mecca but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was the only Mecca (just like there is a Moscow in Russia and in the United States). When dealing with Islamic history; we may be looking at a conflation of the histories of two, or more Meccas. For example, Muslims claim that Mecca is the oldest city in the world. Well, Mel's Mecca near Ur has a better chance of fitting that description than Petra or Arabian Mecca; although the archaeology of Petra does seem to go back several thousand years.
Great accomplishment Mel, but you are not a Jedi Knight yet. That will only happen when Dr. David King attacks you for coming up with an idea that is "amateurish, non-scholarly . . . that is both offensive to Muslims and also an insult to Muslim and Western scholarship." That moment will be equivalent to King Arthur dubbing you a knight with his sword Excalibur.
Appendix: Dr. David King Translator
"an insult to Muslim and Western scholarship" = "Oh crap, here's another important historical fact I didn't know about (but should have)!"
I doubt it was much of anything, not even a hamlet. I imagine it as Abraham's home on his farm in the middle of the countryside, nothing more than that. Zamzam: yes, Petra is a good candidate for that. Muhammad was a trader but on the state level, not on the only Fools and Horses level. Southern Iraq would allow for that trade between Persia and Syria. Murad slated the Hijra idea in an earlier video. I think it was the Jews of Edessa, not Muhammad, that had the real Hijra in 622 - so a case of cultural appropriation.
A brilliant point, I can almost feel the tremors starting in the Islamic world. As for Dr. King, well, he absolutely spat his dummy out over Dan Gibson's awesome and thoroughly researched and factual thesis on qiblas!
Makkah, according to most Arabic lexicons, is from maka-a مكأ [which means to whistle], however this is not really the case. Makkah ends with a Ta-marbuta ة which is the Hebrew He ה. The tradition about the naming of Makkah is from the story of Ishmael and Hagar--who searched for water because her son was dying of thirst. While the baby Ishmael lay under a shrub, he began to strike the ground with his heel---hence, the actual root of Makkah is not the Arabic maka-a مكأ but the Hebrew nakah נכה which is used in the active participle for makkah מכה which means striking. It was this striking of his heel that the water began to gush forth--hence we have another Hebrew root in zamzam זמזם which is the humming and gurgling sound water makes as it gushes from the ground. The earliest name of Makkah was Bakkah, another Hebrew word בכה which means weeping. It was named that first for the weeping of Hagar over her dying son.
Makkah does not mean "lowland" in Arabic.
@@bbn2195 let's not forget that after the Romans drove the Israelites out, most went to Arabia where they helped to convert the local Old South Arab tribes [Joktan/Qahtan] to Judaism--thus forming the largest Jewish kingdom outside Israel in History. It was the destruction of this Himyarite Jewish kingdom that was the focus of the Qur'an Surah called Fil [Elephant] which explained how Abraha--who was sent by Abyssinia to destroy the Himyarite control of Western and Southern Arabia--was defeated by being pelted by stones.
Thanks Jacob!
@@bbn2195 For someone knowlegable on that theme ( i am not on this one) it would be interesting to investigate the chronolgy of the surahs to check exactly WHEN he flirted the jews, the christians,that is the eastern ones and the western ones and the northern ones, the pagans etc , change of direction of prayers ..all of a sudden becca becomes numero uno and so on.
@@bbn2195 i agree but nevertheless, the Becca sura supposedly came 3 year into Medina or when he changed direction AND all of a sudden the bEcca becomes nr 1 in mankind. I would say: AHAH ! All the references to kaba and Mecca are of the Median period. AHAH ! The message becomes less Jewish i would say or anti jewish' . It would be interesting to identify the moment when he separates himself from christianity or christianties in their diffferent form and crosschecks events outside of the islamic narrative.
Hi, could you please explain why this map is in very modern caracters in latin alphabet, please? And how it could have been so perfectly preserved? Thank you.
According to Wikipedia The city (of Harran) was the chief home of the Mesopotamian moon god Sin, under the Assyrians and Neo-Babylonians/Chaldeans and even into Roman times.
Has this the reason for the adoption of the Moon and Stars symbolism? And the desert to the south too?
Brother J, Mel, Murad, Hatun, CP, RC, D. Wood, the list is growing and the Jinga is up.
This is now confusing Jay, what about the evidence presented by Dan Gibson putting Mecca in Petra?
The idea being the capital was old mecca but the place of prayer and kaaba was petra. Eventually they moved the old capital and the black stone to new mecca. I think todat the sauds moved the capital to Riyadh?
😁hey its not even weird they can put anywhere..as long islam have bad image you think they care??riyadh in hadith..place where fitnah(slander)of dajjal(anti christ) happen there..seeing arabs leader a.k.a muslim support non beliver also not weird they will against muslim..it been prophesied since 1500 years ago😂riyadh..its a najd place where not included in prophet prayer..even though they beg or ask prophet to pray for bless now you see why..it not include in prayer or praised😊even prophet never name their place or birth country as their family name..like s a u d.
Conrad Ndimande I thought it was the Kabba Dan was putting forward
yeah: the evidence Mel presents in this video about muslims in Iraq praying toward the West supports the idea of Petra being the ancien Mecca, while it contradicts the idea of Mecca in Turkey...
@@silveriorebelo8045 no it supports the idea of petra being the ancieny direction of prayer but the ancient capital being NE of Petra.
8:00 I took a screenshot of the map and drew two diagonals from the corners to check the center myself. When you do that you can see that Mel's lines are actually curved. My center with straight lines is a bit above where this little black spot is. Can someone else confirm that too?
I am working on a small screen and was at full zoom out but not able to draw lines all the way. I tried my best.
@@Speakers154 Would you like me to draw the lines for you and send the picture to you?
@@j.r.qwertz I've received an updated one but thanks for the offer. The map is not critical. It is a little curious aside, but that raises the possibility that the old Mecca retains its importance for some time.
My God Mel, have some mercy on poor muslims lol
Artemisarrow ..not until they have an EX attached to that status 😁🥰
Haha, I am unrelenting. They are going to get a tsunami of evidence. 😁
Haha, I am unrelenting. They are going to get a tsunami of evidence. 😁
QUESTION: at the 5:00 mark, why does "Ur of the Chaldeans" not refer to southern/southeastern Mesopotamia rather than the region surrounding Edessa??? Did the Chaldeans migrate to the north? I'm confused!
Ah-so! I think I have found the answer to my own question:
www.thetorah.com/article/ur-kasdim-where-is-abrahams-birthplace
How, then, does one explain the latter part of the expression, namely Kasdim? As noted, the Chaldeans lived in southern Mesopotamia, but they were not native to the land, having migrated there in the early to mid-first millennium B.C.E.
Where were they from before that? The most likely answer is northern Mesopotamia. The best evidence comes from the Greek historian Xenophon (431-354 B.C.E.), who mentions the Chaldeans as a warlike people blocking the way to Armenia (Anabasis 4.3.4), and as neighbors of the Armenians but at war with them (Cyropaedia 3.1.34). Xenophon further mentions the Chaldeans in connection with the Carduchi (that is, the ancient Kurds) (Anabasis 5.5.17). In fact, to this day, the term lives on within the Chaldean Christian community, which inhabits the region.
An Aramean Area
Further support for the claim that Abraham’s hometown of Ur should be located in northern Mesopotamia comes from the Aramean connection. Deuteronomy 26:5 describes Israel’s ancestors as wandering Arameans: אֲרַמִּי אֹבֵד אָבִי “A wandering Aramean was my father”.[16] The Aramean heartland is located in northern Mesopotamia. In fact, the Bible refers to the region in which Urfa is found as Aram Naharaim, lit. ‘Aram of the Two Rivers’ (Gen 24:10, etc.), namely the Tigris and the Euphrates. Genesis 22:21‒22 juxtaposes Aram and Chesed (~ Chaldea) as scions of the family of Naḥor, suggesting their location in northern Mesopotamia in close proximity to one another.
Finally, the great Ur required no further appellation; the expression Ur of the Chaldees implies that we are not speaking of the famous city. In fact, northern Ur was likely established as a colony of the metropolis of Ur in the south and would thus naturally have been given a further appellation. A comparable case is how we say simply “London” for the great city of England, while we must state “London, Ontario” (named and founded during the years 1793‒1826) to refer to one of its outposts.
What are the chances the Abraham came from Gobekli tepe?
The people of Urfa have been claiming this for ages. Urfa is on walking distance from Gobekli Tepe.
"According to Jewish and Muslim sources, Urfa is Ur Kasdim, the hometown of Abraham, the grandfather of Jacob whom God named Israel. This identification was disputed by Leonard Woolley, the excavator of the Sumerian city of Ur in 1927 and scholars remain divided on the issue. Urfa is also one of several cities that have traditions associated with Job."
Amazing!
Take a look at this article about Gobekli Tepe, The world's first temple (kaba), in the very location at the centre of that map:
www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gobekli-tepe-the-worlds-first-temple-83613665/
As seen on modern maps:
images.app.goo.gl/C1QTXL2ZvKNEWbtj7
Is it possible to give a link to a high res image of the Muhammad al-Idrisi map or the zoom view which appears at 9:19, I haven't been able to find a high res version.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Idrisi#/media/File:TabulaRogeriana_upside-down.jpg Download it first and I would advise you to turn it upside down after you have read where Harran and Mecca is.
@@Speakers154 Thanks, that' great, interesting stuff
FIRST: the place of Ur dicated in the first map is wrong - Ur was near the modern Basra, in southern Iraq.
EVEN WORSE, the interpretation of the map of the 12th century is totally wrong. Mel and Jay are wrong in identifying the Arabian peninsula: the peninsula in the center is the SINAI one, while the strip of water toward the North-east reepresents the RED SEA - that means that the Mecca indicated in this old map is in the area of PETRA, thus confirming the research of Dan Gibson
I think you better look at the last video before you sound off.
There were two Ur's, the famous one that you already know about, but there was a smaller Ur in the northernmost part of the fertile crescent. Some scholars have raised questions about which Ur was the homeland of Abraham (since Abraham's relatives all lived in the area of Haran in the north, see Genesis) but Ur "of the Chaldees" *should* refer to the southern Ur unless ancient writers became confused about the location of the Chaldeans (geography was an immature science in those days).
mosaicmagazine.com/picks/history-ideas/2019/11/evidence-suggests-abraham-was-born-in-turkey-not-iraq/?print
"Ur of the Chaldees" -- now it makes sense:
www.thetorah.com/article/ur-kasdim-where-is-abrahams-birthplace
Kudos to George Bush, who had it right all along! (Read the article to see what I'm talking about.)
just want to know, when all Mel's research will be compiled into book? or maybe a documentary like dan giibson did
Mecca in Turkey, interesting. Sultan Erdokhan will start a new Hadj business
Urfa/Sanliurfa is near to Gobekli Tepe, the oldest ritual site dating back to 10th millennium BCE.
So the traditional Islamic story came after idris map,is that being suggested.
The map seems mint.
Not necessarily. There is a conflicting memory.
@@Speakers154. Well I am into new testament, I am sure truth can unravel if bible is kept at heart.
I ain't promoting bible.bible(eg a read) is a guide.
@@asifbrettishmaelmakki9 What I meant was the story of the new Mecca was already there in Ibn Ishaq/Hisham, Al Bukhari and Al Tabari prior to the 12th century, but the tradition of about Ur's importance was kept strong all that time, despite the new narrative.
@@Speakers154. I understand as u say.
On Al bukhari and friends. We are told their stuff(liturature) has travelled to us from 1200years ago.
O ok nice.I will ponder that 🤔.
Keepwell Mel and friends.
@@Speakers154. China reports are strong. It would be unfair to veiw the Chinese as liars due to suspicion with there documentation.
And Muhammad did say "seek knowledge even from China". (the saying is something like what I have wrote).
so how do you connect this to Dan Gibson's discovery which shows that all the Quiblas of Mosques before 727 points to Petra?
See the big post I left above.
@@Speakers154 ???
One begins to wonder what do the Saudis actually know and to what extent have they made their own historical investigations?
Bazalgette Blaster the king knows and hides it
@@michaelhughes7458 they hide it cuz they use the lies to exploit and use the people as pawns in their political games. It's madness. And I'm sure they eradicate any insiders who question them or come against them in the most horrific ways to keep the masses in check
Bazalgette Blaster they NO. There’s a serious problem and they keep it quite to the masses in Saudi
A quick point, you could argue that the map is cantered on the birth place of Abraham and does not relate to the location of the original Mecca. But I don't know how important the birth place of Abraham was to the first believers.
My,my,my...the plot thickens...mwahahahaha...
Great work!
East West
CHRIST JESUS is best.
🔜✝⏳🎼KZN South Africa🇮🇱💞👏👑👊🎸🎤💪😁🇿🇦
Die slamse is nou kwaad.
@@taecart8083 Miskien was Muhammed se Jibriel eintlik die Tokelossie.
Colin Hartung ja slamse is almal tokelosdies. It is very interesting to watch the slide of Islam. The narrative has them stumped
@@taecart8083 40 years ago I told my friends that the Iron curtain would collapse, Germany will be united. And after that Islam will also collapse.
They laughed at me. I was told that I read too many fairytales. 30 years ago the iron curtain collapsed.
Now Islam is collapsing.
Islam won't disappear, but plenty of their followers will leave. Islam has too many unrealistic myths to hold it together. People are more advanced and they search for reality. Medival beliefs can't brainwash everyone. Many Muslim people will seek the truth.
Colin Hartung yes. Is ironical that those supporting all these regressive ideologies seems to have no answers to what is happening within Islam. The same will happen to China. I’m changing the topic. The average Muslim must surely realise that it is time Islam with its regressive ideology is failing. The Quran is clearly the worst book ever written. Now that the evidences are stacking up that it is a collection of Gnostic, Talmud and Zoroastrian texts proves that it was only time that we found out. All the Bokaap Slumse must be panicking
So this also questions Dan Gibson thesis that the Kaaba was in Petra? Can somebody explain please?
See my answer below
Next week Mel has found Muhammed. He lived in Australia.
th-cam.com/video/Q906qTdkXL4/w-d-xo.html
Jay, ever thought about the fact that there are practicallt no shias in arabia? Theyre all up north in mesopotamia and further to the east! Such an early split (first few caliphs) would seem to indicate that that split was up north, not down south. Can you look into this?
There is plenty of Shi'a in Arabia, including KSA, but they keep to themselves.
The split happened right at the presumed death of the prophet, as there was a major disagreement on the correct meaning of the prophet's request to be succeeded by "the closest to him", which can be Ali, his cousin and closest next of kin, or Abu Bakr, who was standing closest to him when he died. The Shi'a support the first explanation, and the Sunni the second.
However, the main and more deeper issue is that Shi'a Islam had absorbed the rich preislamic Persian theology within it, while Sunni Islam is generally stayed dry and austere
@@bbn2195Youre not refuting what Im saying. I never said there were no shias in arabia, there just arent many. The most are around ur and to the east of it. Simple as.
@@timonrolleman54 Sorry if it sounded like I was refuting, I had no intention to refute or disagree, but rather to elaborate. You are absolutely correct, they are indeed concentrated within the realms of ancient Persia, more or less.
HAHAHAHAHAHA Wallahi you make me laugh :) :) :) :) La ilaha illa llah mohammed rasulu llah.
Great work guys. Is any historian in academia showing any interest in your work sir?
Not at the minute. I think they will set out to destroy me. They would hate to think an amateur, part-time hobbyist could come to this conclusion while they with their PhDs and who are full-time orientalists with a larger access to sources didn't but trotted out safe, consensus-friendly fayre for decades.😁
@@Speakers154 Sir, you are not an amateur, you are a practising historian.
Yes, universities have done more to discredit historical credibility than Mohamed, but that's what happens when history comes into conflict with their ideology.
It sounds like your reward is just taking part in what you enjoy, that alone will drive you forward.
thank you for sharing what you do.
It’s pronounced caldeans not chal I know because I am 1
Oops, thanks! Sorry about that.
Sneaker's Corner your fine I love your work
Peters' map is just scrap. It is distorting the world even more than the Mercator projection does. Don't forget that each projection of a sphere to a plane is a distortion, but Mercator is angle preserving and as such ideal for navigation, whereas Peters' projection is not.
WwoWW
Does Piri Reis say anything pointing in this direction too? (Ottoman admiral and cartographer. Arab name Hadji Muhiddin Piri Ibn Hadji Mehmed. World map from 1513.)
Keep grabbing at straws, lol, Mecca was in Petra, now it’s somewhere in Turkey. Ha,ha ha!
Mel and Jay are heretics.
IT is in Ur ,Turkey believe it or not
@@khalmakh2369 Um no.
For them to be heretics, they must not only "introduce" new/false interpretations in orthodox doctrine, they must also claim that they still adhere to the doctrine.
As far as i know, neither of them claims to be muslims.
So they are by definition not heretics.
Dear Dr. Smith. As First thank you for your work. I think that there might be a logical error by the interpretation of the map. We have to consider also that the caliphate was in Baghdad and the center of Islam was in Damascus. That can have an influence of the centration of the map too. It's just an idea and I might be wrong.
The historians do the very same Breakdown of the bible, Cheers
@L Lawliet oh boy I guess you have not heard of Dr Richard carrier ... Unlike these wanna be TH-cam researchers he has a doctorate to back up what he says
@L Lawliet bart accepts that supernatural born of a virgin Jesus did not exists...read or hear him again please
@L Lawliet You're totally misrepresenting Ehrman's works if you mean to say that Bart Ehrman says that the Bible passes most of the historical criticisms its gone through, its verified certified first century (other than the Gospels) and accurate to boot. Ehrman believes in a historical Jesus, but He doesn't resemble the God Christians represent him to be.
@L Lawliet that's the point so gospels lied and exaggerated his stature.. you accept that ?
@L Lawliet mate none of the contemporary historians mentioned anything abt these miracles. I am sure these events where dead walked etc would have found mention with headlines in all history books of the time but none mention. Josephus mention 50 years after supposed death n recoming is fake or disputed at best. If resurrection etc did not happen how is he different from any other preacher ... I couldn't find satisfactory answer to these ..unless ofcourse I have "FAITH"
If Mecca means "lowland" this also fits the northern location. Just north of this region are mountains that in Assyrian were called Urartu which in their Akkadian language means "highlands or uplands" later mentioned as "Ararat" by the Hebrews.
Another meaning suggested for Mecca is "to strike", as in a place that was struck. (This was suggested by a Jewish viewer.)
You attack Islam instead of focusing on your own beliefs. you ignore the mountain of evidence that you are wrong. That map is not even original, the words are in ENGLISH!!. Try learning a little before you post such nonsense.
Even today ,there are people mistakenly drawn a map
Would contradict Gibson's work that points to Petra as being Mecca?
No, this place never was used for a qibla nor had a qaaba, so no contradiction. It was purely revered as the birthplace/home of Abraham. (As I argued months ago, Islam grew out of Abrahamism.) Petra did have a qibla and kaaba. The two places were conflated in the new Mecca.
@@Speakers154 "As I argued months ago, Islam grew out of Abrahamism" what do you mean?
@@godhasgivenussalvationinth5223 I have a video on my channel on that. I will probably do a fresh one for Jay if he would like so we can tie up all the loose threads for everyone.
Where is the centre of that said map in the map today? Is there something there?
Thanks man. You make more people's wants to know about Islam. And this free information wil create more Muslim followers in this world. Whatever you said bad about Islam people's will search the truth and they will thanks you. Because you are the starting point for them to become the real Muslim. Alhamdu lillah.
You think? A recent survey of Iran finds that 59% of the population no longer believes in Islam. What do you think will happen if other Muslim countries follow suit? No one has anything to fear from the truth. Little of Islam survives the historical critique.
historically, archeologically and theologically, Islam FAILS and is FAILING continuously. this is why Muslims are leaving Islam by the millions. islam is collapsing thats the reality.
“The more we scratch
The more we find,
The more we find
The more they whine,
They more they whine
The more we shine”
Good riddance, Islam 🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳
Greek historian Diodorus Siculus
who died in the year 30 BC, (meaning he lived and died at least thirty years before the advent of Christianity), mentioned in his encyclopedia in the third part on page 217 a description of the Hijaz and the Arabian Desert region and said:
The inhabitants of that region (meaning the Hijaz desert) around the Gulf, known as "Banizomenes" get their food by hunting wild animals and eating their meat, and there is also a "temple" which is sacred and highly revered by all Arabs
This is the link from the same encyclopedia that mentioned the "holy temple" by the Arabs in paragraph 44, and the American Professor Charles Henry (Charles Henry) translated this encyclopedia from Greek into English and published it on the Internet at this link:
penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3C*.html
Second: The Greek historian Claudius Ptolemy, who lived and died in the first century, mentioned the existence of Mecca in his book "Geography", but he did not mention it as "Mecca", rather he said that its name is "Macoraba" (in English, Macoraba) which means the house of the Lord in the ancient Aramaic language It is located in the desert of Hijaz.
The Greek historian Claudius Ptolemyy drew a set of maps in his book, and the map in which he mentioned the city of "Makoraba" or Mecca is Map No. 6, which shows the Arabian Desert and the Persian Gulf, and you can browse this beautiful map on the "World Digital Library" website at this link ( Or as in the attached picture No. 1)
www.wdl.org/en/item/2916/view/1/1/
But what is the evidence that "Mecca" is the same as "Makoraba" that Claudius Ptolemy mentioned in his book and in his map?
There are many historical sources and sayings of historians that support Claudius Ptolemy's claim that Macoraba is the same Mecca.
Those two Jay and Mel
A- they know nothing about the history or read Greeks history
B- they hate Muslims and Arab world they do anything to lie
C. They know the truth but try playing games and lie about every
This is not scientific research.. For sure But views of Rachid Hamami's someone translated it to them
@@rattel1424 Ian D. Morris has already addressed these in this series of blog posts titled "Mecca before Islam". The long and short of it is that Diodorus Siculus indeed says there was a temple, but he places it much farther north, perhaps north of the Thamud. Ptolemy also speaks of a place called Makoraba, but we have yet to find a satisfying etymological or historical connection between Makoraba and Mecca. The onus is on those who say they are the same.
www.iandavidmorris.com/mecca-before-islam-1-diodorus-and-the-kaaba/
@@TurtleMarcus
The encyclopedia (Bibliotheca historicaa) compiled by the Greek historian Diodorus Siculus, who died in the year 30 BC, (meaning he lived and died at least thirty years before the advent of Christianity). He mentioned in his encyclopedia in the third part on page 217 a description of the Hijaz region and the Arabian Sahara, saying:
The inhabitants of that region (meaning the Hijaz desert) around the Gulf, known as “Banizomenes” get their food by hunting wild animals and eating their meat, and there is also a “temple” which is sacred and highly revered by all Arabs.
This is the link from the same encyclopedia that mentioned the "holy temple" by the Arabs in paragraph 44, and the American Professor Charles Henry (Charles Henry) translated this encyclopedia from Greek into English and published it on the Internet at this link:
penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3C*.html
But who are the "Banizomenes" of the inhabitants of that region who have a "sacred temple", as historian Diodorus Siculus said?
Banu Zomin are the descendants of the Prophet Abraham, peace be upon him, and they are also known as "Banu Zamran", attributed to Zamran, the eldest son of the Prophet Abraham from his wife "Qaturah", whom he married after Sarah's death. Many historians have mentioned this saying:
1) Historian William Hazlittt in his "Classical Gazetteer" on page 67.
2) Professor Jan Retsoo, professor of ancient Arab history at the University of Gothenburg, in his book "The Arabs in Antiquity" on page 298,
3) The English historian Edward Gibbonn in his book Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, pp. 223-224
So, through the sayings and testimonies of historians, it is evident that the Banu Zimran or “Banu Zumin” inhabited the Hijaz region and they are from the Arabs, as the Greek historian said, and they are the descendants of the Prophet Abraham who lived in the Hijaz with the testimony of his history professors, and they had a temple that they venerate and greatly honor, and this sacred temple It is certainly the "Holy Kaaba" because the entire Hijaz region did not have any sacred temple except for the Kaaba, as historian Diodorus Siculus said.
Yeah I did it ... nah mate, Islam critics attack Islam (ideology), not Muslims (people).
You’re clutching at straws anyway, just like all your lying scholars and apologists - they are who you should be angry with. They treat all Muslims like utter morons!
Even if Jay & Mel are wrong about this, no one can honestly deny the other hundreds of issues Islam has. Momo, your “best example for mankind” qccording to your own sources, was a ped0 rapist murdering caravan-robber...
So so so so sooooo many contradictions and holes 🕳 in 🕳the🕳narra🕳tive
Islam is crumbling, I hope you see the truth 🙏🏼
@@MakeAsylumsGre4tAgain lol
As a Turkish person I can say that Şanlıurfa has a very significant history. Also the oldest discovered prayer place Göbeklitepe is also located in Şanlıurfa. It might be helpful for your research if you considered this fact too. Also in Şanlıurfa there is a place called Balıklıgöl where it is believed to be the place Prophet İbrahim was thrown into the fire.
Perhaps you address it in your earlier video but most archeology places Ur in the south of Iraq with the biblical Harran to the north and west. This would still place the original mecca in a different location which would have been in between Ur, Harran, Petra somewhere west of the Euphrates. Certainly north of the modern Mecca.
Absolutely. However, with this Ur, we get a much more precise location being pinpointed. But either way, it is definitely not the Hijaz Mecca being referred to.
@@Speakers154 I admit that I missed the first video where they make an argument for interpreting the map from what may have been an 8th century idea of where Ur was and that it would be more precise. I still think the author of the map has one concept of where Ur was and thus where Mecca was originally but that there are several documents which preserve the location of Ur. The Ur of the Chaldeans designation begins as a way to differentiate the original Ur from the Ur of southern Turkey and the two are sometimes conflated by medieval sources who don't realize that there are in fact two places called Ur by the time they are writing (one the ancient Ur in the south and the other the new Ur near Edessa which gets its name by association with Abraham) I find it interesting that using the Sumerian Ur, Petra (or something nearby) looks to be Mecca and using the northern Ur near Edessa another place surrounded by hills in a valley is found. It looks more and more like modern Mecca is chosen to conform to geographic descriptions of both Petra and the more northerly site but can't fully match the cultural and climatic descriptions. It would be very interesting to posit a possible Medina to match either of the two other sites for Mecca. It might be that some of the inconsistencies in the story of the move between the two places is the result of trying to make the stiry fit the new location of Mecca.
Gadara (Gr. ; a or the walled place). Suprisingly the map shows 3 walled places; Haran (Ur), Mecca, and Petra (Becca). Re-becca or De-meter is the mother of the Twin, the Dioscuri or the lesser gods. Gadara or bakki (beekah) is the valley surrounded by mountains. Like the egyptian valley of the kings it is a grave-yard or death-valley. It is the hiding place of the lesser gods cast out of heavens; the forbidden (secret) gathering place of Hubal and Al-usha. There is also a western Gadera in the city of Cadiz (ancient named Gadeira ; a walled place or fortress/stronghold). Where the altar of Meikart (phenician sea-god) was with the pillars of Hercules (Heracles). Biblical Samson also took place between the pillars and destroyed the philistine temple.
Does this mean Petra is no longer a candidate for the original Mecca?
No, Petra is still on the table. This has been an attempt to explain the anomaly in the 680s source (Jacob of Edessa) and the 741 Chronicle. As I explained in the last video, the new Mecca is a conflation of many places and idea, so Petra is part of that mix.
Methinks a good looking lady from Petra can be be safely referred to as being a "petra dish".
Guys there is the Ur in Irak which is also considered the Birthplace of Abraham….wish you elaborate a bit more of the centre of this map and the location of Petra?
At 4:46 you guys have got Ur a hell of a long way from the actual city of Ur which was in southern Mesopotamia. You're going to have to back this up. I enjoy your work but the location of Ur is pretty much carved in stone. Was Edessa referred to as Ur somewhere? How can you put Ur in Armenia?
So what about Dan Gibson and Petra?
Do you think it’s the same as Petra??
I have been to Ur, called Urfa today and went to the cave that they say Abraham was born and drank some water from there. They had a group of Muslims who were vigorously chanting/ singing in front. Very interesting
Attributing a city in southeast Anatolia to Abraham actually makes perfect sense, since Abraham moved with his father Terah from Ur to Haran, which is right there in southeast Anatolia. I had always thought this was the Ur in Mesopotamia and hadn't heard of the Edessa identification with Ur, but this makes even more sense. If Edessa is the "Ur of the Chaldees", then Abraham's migration is almost a straight line south, from Edessa to Haran (with this hypothesized Abrahamic Mecca in between) and then continuing south, perhaps to visit his cousin Lot in Sodom, and then on to Canaan.
This also makes sense of the fact that Arphaxad, the ancestor of Terah and Abraham, is traditionally associated as an ancestor of the people who live in Anatolia. He probably settled there with a portion of the Semites after the flood, creating that association, even if most of his descendants eventually migrated elsewhere.
Anyway appertaining bro Mel’s research work.
Europe isn't in the centre of the map that you show. Africa is in the centre. The world map frame is the longitude that cuts the least land mass so that the majority continental mass is centred within the frame. The latitude centre of the frame is the equator, zero latitude. Modern world maps are nearly always Mecator projections based on this frame because it shows the most populated area of the earth with the least distortion and disruption. It is not for Eurocentric reasons at all, it's just the most practical solution for the majority of the worlds population. The polar regions can't be shown as the projection becomes infinity distorted at the poles making it impossible to project. However, there is also less interest in uninhabitable regions which are generally mapped in more appropriate projections for those regions. Maps are framed the show the area of interest and projected according to their purpose. Each projection of the earths spheroid onto a flat map must by definition distort some properties. We have a choice about which properties get distorted and which are held true. The purpose of the map prioritises the properties to be held true and that determines the projection used according to what was historically available at the time.
If your going to make comments about maps, how about asking a cartographer instead of talking out of your ignorance.
Where can we find a picture of this map that we can zoom in and see everything more clearly?
I have looked on Google maps at Sanilufa to Harran. Can anyone find the spot and evidencw in between for the Mecca mentioned by Mel?
Same. There is nothing significant to see. Ur was where Abraham was born, Mecca his home. The latter was how the 741 chronicle recounts it.
I found a place called Mamuca. Seems a small village on a hill. The name is interesting though, as it is co similar to the Indoeuropean world for mother (means it even in today's Romanian). There were also some Indoeuropean language spoken in Anatolia. And Mecca is called the mother of the cities. Just associating randomly.
Nixe work Sir..
Hmm. The lines aren't continues and not aligned. So what happened?
The lines are purely to help you see it is at the center. If I continued them into the center, you would be complaining that I have covered up what it says.
@@Speakers154 I understand that they are not continued because of that. But if I try to bridge the gap then that can't be done: the lines aren't aligned.
Thanks a lot guys can you put this map somewhere to check?
If this place is old Macca why there is no sign of gheble toward this location?
Explained in last video. Try and watch all videos if you can.
None of the mosques pointed to this “Mecca”, correct?
Please put in the description line of your older videos the word: By now outdated!
or: Outdated view
I like your poetry Jay! That is *really* interesting! I see that there are a lot of names on that map, do any line up with muslim/Persian-arab writings? How about in that area today, are there names that point back to the history of that area? And _why_ would they draw the map southwards? Is it because they occupied pre-dominantly the south? Does the terrain line up with any "arab" battles/history other than the "mecca in the valley" -- what is the vegetation like there? What about the real history of Abraham -- does it line up with this area from other traditions?
For anybody wanting to get a better grip, extending the horizon and generally lay some foundation to the history, mindset and features from the Mesopotamian part of the world, the video "The Sumerians - The fall of the first cities" might be a nice starting point. It's about the Sumerian civilisation, and there are a few details here and there that might shed some light on some of the later history in this area. Even though the Sumerians fell at about the same time as the last mammoths around 1700 BC, they shaped the times to come. They were followed by the Assyrians, Babylonians and other peoples that are of a more direct interest, if one is to understand the current situation in this area of the world. (th-cam.com/video/d2lJUOv0hLA/w-d-xo.html)
So u mean hole again?
Islamic history is a trainwreck, and we're watching the replay in slo-mo.
Can Indonesian people translate all pfanderfilm channel????????????, because my English not good.
When Europeans made their way to America, they named their towns after places in their native lands. Aberdeen, New York, New England, Hamilton, London, etc. Do you think someone fleeing from that area might have transferred the name Mecca from the North to where they moved to and used the same name?
Awesome! 😍 But best always to clarify that your "Ur" is not the current location, and rather another attribution from long after the most original Ur.
it says "Ur in Chaldea". does that include Turkey?
Ur of Abraham is in the south of Iraq/Persia/Mesopotamia
@@Peter-xf9jy No definite proof to that, as there were several Urs, but Urfa has this longstanding abrahamic tradition: www.showcaves.com/english/tr/caves/Abraham.html
QUESTION: I heard, the the name 'Byzantine' wasn't used until the 19th century. Earlier they were referred to as Romans. Is that true?
Alhamdu Li Lah for Mel, PBUH, Fitna maker and Narrator.
Greek historian Diodorus Siculus
who died in the year 30 BC, (meaning he lived and died at least thirty years before the advent of Christianity), mentioned in his encyclopedia in the third part on page 217 a description of the Hijaz and the Arabian Desert region and said:
The inhabitants of that region (meaning the Hijaz desert) around the Gulf, known as "Banizomenes" get their food by hunting wild animals and eating their meat, and there is also a "temple" which is sacred and highly revered by all Arabs
This is the link from the same encyclopedia that mentioned the "holy temple" by the Arabs in paragraph 44, and the American Professor Charles Henry (Charles Henry) translated this encyclopedia from Greek into English and published it on the Internet at this link:
penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/3C*.html
Second: The Greek historian Claudius Ptolemy, who lived and died in the first century, mentioned the existence of Mecca in his book "Geography", but he did not mention it as "Mecca", rather he said that its name is "Macoraba" (in English, Macoraba) which means the house of the Lord in the ancient Aramaic language It is located in the desert of Hijaz.
The Greek historian Claudius Ptolemyy drew a set of maps in his book, and the map in which he mentioned the city of "Makoraba" or Mecca is Map No. 6, which shows the Arabian Desert and the Persian Gulf, and you can browse this beautiful map on the "World Digital Library" website at this link ( Or as in the attached picture No. 1)
www.wdl.org/en/item/2916/view/1/1/
But what is the evidence that "Mecca" is the same as "Makoraba" that Claudius Ptolemy mentioned in his book and in his map?
There are many historical sources and sayings of historians that support Claudius Ptolemy's claim that Macoraba is the same Mecca.
Those two Jay and Mel
A- they know nothing about the history or read Greeks history
B- they hate Muslims and Arab world they do anything to lie
C. They know the truth but try playing games and lie about every
This is not scientific research.. For sure But views of Rachid Hamami's someone translated it to them
Keep praying.. Because holy spirit always looks for truth not lies
@Terence Smith
Foucs and read what before A B C
The new Mecca was already on maps at that time. It's just that the cartographer had a special interest around the center of his map.
I thought Petra was Mecca?
I have read a very lengthy primer below that might help you to get up to speed on this.
What is this guy talking about? Chaldean Ur is not Edessa, it's in southern Iraq. Between Chaldean Ur and Carra is the edge of the Euphrates-Arabian desert.
Why don't you show where that early Mecca is on a modern map, google map? What's there now?
Does this mean Petra was not the original Mecca ?
See my answer.