Thank you so much for this video. I've been scratching my head about transpositions, looking at charts and whatnot online. I"m learning to arrange jazz music, a lot of scores have an F horn, I'm a trombone player but I'm writing for a Bb trumpet and sax. We might get a clarinet eventually too. I had been transposing by sound, which is good practice for the ear, but I wanted the learn the theory. This video concisely summarized what I've needed to learn! Thanks again!
Absolutely the BEST video I ever watch for orchestration and transposing instruments, unfortunately you have only 4 videos, please make more when you have time, many thanks.
Thank you for this outstanding video! I'm a lifelong drummer, turning guitar player. I'm really getting into understanding music theory. I've always wondered why, in my drum and bugle corps days, the arrangers / staff members would quiz horn players on what notes they're playing if something wasn't quite sounding right. Their responses never made sense to me. It also never made sense to me why my grandpa would say, "I've got this old XX flat saxophone, which is unusual". I had no idea what he was talking about. I feel like 1/2 of my life has been a lie. I always figured "a C, is a C, is a C". Now I'm very curious about how those who play transposed instruments deal with communication / improvising in an informal musical situation (i.e., people getting together to "jam", etc.). Thank you for an OUTSTANDING video! It is bookmarked, and I will watch it quite a few times, I'm sure.
WOW Thank you so much and God bless. This is really helpful even though I am not that much knowing music but helped me to create a melody from piano to Clarinet :-). God bless really!!
thanks so much! such a helpful video, there's not a lot of videos or info on understanding instrumental tranposition. Very helpful and important l for any style of music.
A pity so many pay no attention to theory. I remember my clarinet teacher, bewildered when I told her I tuned my open G to F on my piano. Yes she had been playing and teaching junior clarinet for 30 years !! She "corrected" me when I raised the Circle of Fifths - yes it is Fourths backwards, I know. It actually took me ages to realise that all Western music is based on intervals of the chromatic scale so the intervals are constant just the start note differs. I am surprised that the Viola was not mentioned as they play from the C clef and that has bamboozled the Bass player standing behind them 😊 I wish I had seen this video a year or two ago. Thank you
Well to be fair, most clarinet players would be bewildered when you talk about tuning open G, because it has such awful natural tuning that you just need to correct it while playing, by lowering your fingers over the tone holes so that they are not closed but there is something slightly above them, which makes the note a bit more flat (since it's naturally very sharp). But if there is a note you would tune it with, it would be the F on the piano, yes (assuming Bb clarinet).
@UCUuD1rxI08vD-Czk06d94OQ The C Tenor Sax (aka Melody sax because it can play melodies in unison w/ a variety of C instruments) since it's in Concert Pitch. Every note in the Sax Family is played w/ the same fingerings, same for Clarinet Family, Trumpet Family, & the Flute family. The F alto flute transposes down a fifth from concert pitch (like the French Horn and English Horn/F Alto Oboe).
Trombones are normally pitched in Bb or F. They are therefore transposing instruments however in orchestral music they are written as they are not. The player compensates. In brass bands or concert bands they are written as transposing instruments. Hence moving between the genre's need to relearn positions to written notes. The exception to this rule is bass trombone which is written at concert pitch in all forms of music.
And tenor trombone is technically also a Bb instrument, but for some reason the score is always in C and then there is that Bass clef that you have to learn, when it would be so simple if they just do it the same as with a trumpet.
@UCUuD1rxI08vD-Czk06d94OQ The fingerings for all saxophones are the same, it's also true for the Clarinet family, trumpet family, oboe family, & others. The G Alto flute is my favorite, which transposes down a fourth from concert pitch so it's range is the same as a Violin. The Mezzo-Soprano Oboe in A transposes down a Minor third from concert pitch. The Cammerton Organ transposes up a whole step.
Why would something in the key of E transpose to F# on Bb clarinet? Does the score and key signature not go down a major second as opposed to going upward a major second?
If you go to approximately 7:10, where he discusses the four main members of the saxophone family, he explains the complications that would occur if they were all written at concert pitch (in particular the problem of having too many different fingerings to learn). It can also be used to avoid a player having to play in a more-extreme key compared to if s/he were to play the same piece in a simpler key on a different instrument in the same family, as illustrated in the later section when he discusses the comparisons between the Clarinet in B♭ versus the Clarinet in A. This can be found starting at approximately 9:06. So it initially sounds confusing to have transposing instruments, but it is a necessary evil that actually makes things simpler for the player! Actually, while we are on the subject of transposing instruments, two very common instruments - the guitar and bass guitar - are also transposing instruments even though usually they seem to have the same key signatures as scores for instruments playing in concert pitch. In fact, in such cases both instruments sound an octave lower than the printed note; this is simply to avoid having too many ledger lines when notated, which would make reading the music far too confusing.
***** But imagine if the notes on the piano changed. Suppose the note you call C was a D on organ, an E on harpsichord, and an F on synth. And I don't mean the sound, but the actual note. That is what wind players face. Try it. If you play piano, take a piece you know and shift all the notes up one. My head would explode. It's not impossible, I guess. Recorder players learn two different sets of fingerings. Clarinet players have different fingerings in different octaves. Horn players especially have to transpose a lot. But it makes it much easier all around.
Fingering on piano and on a wind instrument are not really comparable. On piano the notes are still the same regardless of which finger you p k at it with. On a wind instrument the notes themselves would be different.
it's really stupid and the explanation is that back when horns didn't have valves, you needed horns pitched in different pitches to play a song, so like, "this horn will play Bb, and this horn will play F" and I guess the people playing the instrument preferred reading it differently or something, but it stuck and now we can't undo it even if it's stupid and doesn't make sense anymore.
I've done the same thing (I play trombone). You want to transpose the Bb sax score (and key) down a major 2nd to sound like a trombone. If you've got trombone music, you transpose it up a major third to play it with a Bb sax. This is because the Bb sax sounds a major second lower than what is written. Trombone plays what is written, so the music must be transposed down a major second to sound like what it would be written for a C instrument (trombone).
Question: I play a Bb tuba, and it is not a transposing instrument. In fact, a C tuba, an F tuba, and an Eb tuba are also all "in C." We all read the same music, just change our fingerings to accommodate different notes. Now, I also play a Bb trumpet, and arrange music for all band instruments. While arranging from a piano score, I printed my trumpet music "in C" without transposing it. I recognized my mistake, but treated the music like a "tuba in Treble Clef." The notes, of course, read and sounded the same (Eb = 1 on tuba, and trumpet, technically F). I read the entire piece as if my trumpet were "in C." It was much easier. Is there a reason this is not common practice? If I can do this, why does transposition even exist? Thank you for your time.
But no transposing instruments use those clefs so they are always in C. Meaning you only have to learn them once and they are both centered around middle C which makes them not so bad :)
I don't understand the reasoning that not transposing would require the player to "learn a bunch of different fingerings" for the same note. Middle C is middle C, no matter what kooky transposition scheme you're using, so whether we wrote it transposed or in the correct position, a sax player would still only have to use one fingering for that note. Yeah the fingering might be different across the sax family, but big deal! You learn multiple instruments, you learn multiple fingerings! As a clarinet player myself, I couldn't for the LIFE figure out why the composers of clarinet music didn't just write the notes out in sounding pitch. I'm smart enough to figure the fingerings out from there.
In other words, if you stood an alto sax player next to a tenor sax and instructed them both to blow a C note, neither C would sound the same as piano C.
Momo Symphonia Saxophones are already complicated. The C sax is insane. to keep the design and fingering the same for all in rhe sax family requires transposition because each one is different in length and so sound different. I imagine they could have fixed this when first designing them but that was before computers, etc. Bot easy with pencil and paper.
@UCUuD1rxI08vD-Czk06d94OQ The C Tenor Sax (aka Melody sax because it can play melodies in unison w/ a variety of C instruments) since it's in Concert Pitch. Every note in the Sax Family is played w/ the same fingerings, same for Clarinet Family, Trumpet Family, & the Flute family. The F alto flute transposes down a fifth from concert pitch (like the French Horn and English Horn/F Alto Oboe).
@UCUuD1rxI08vD-Czk06d94OQ The fingerings for all saxophones are the same, it's also true for the Clarinet family, trumpet family, oboe family, & others. The G Alto flute is my favorite, which transposes down a fourth from concert pitch so it's range is the same as a Violin. The Mezzo-Soprano Oboe in A transposes down a Minor third from concert pitch. The Cammerton Organ transposes up a whole step.
@UCUuD1rxI08vD-Czk06d94OQ The C Tenor Sax (aka Melody sax because it can play melodies in unison w/ a variety of C instruments) since it's in Concert Pitch. Every note in the Sax Family is played w/ the same fingerings, same for Clarinet Family, Trumpet Family, & the Flute family. The F alto flute transposes down a fifth from concert pitch (like the French Horn and English Horn/F Alto Oboe).
Thank you so much for this video. I've been scratching my head about transpositions, looking at charts and whatnot online. I"m learning to arrange jazz music, a lot of scores have an F horn, I'm a trombone player but I'm writing for a Bb trumpet and sax. We might get a clarinet eventually too. I had been transposing by sound, which is good practice for the ear, but I wanted the learn the theory.
This video concisely summarized what I've needed to learn! Thanks again!
Absolutely the BEST video I ever watch for orchestration and transposing instruments, unfortunately you have only 4 videos, please make more when you have time, many thanks.
A tip: you can watch movies at flixzone. Me and my gf have been using it for watching a lot of movies recently.
@Javier Cristiano Definitely, I have been watching on flixzone for since november myself =)
Thanks for taking the time to make this video. This has been a big roadblock for me when trying to analyze orchestral sheet music.
Thank you for this outstanding video! I'm a lifelong drummer, turning guitar player. I'm really getting into understanding music theory. I've always wondered why, in my drum and bugle corps days, the arrangers / staff members would quiz horn players on what notes they're playing if something wasn't quite sounding right. Their responses never made sense to me. It also never made sense to me why my grandpa would say, "I've got this old XX flat saxophone, which is unusual". I had no idea what he was talking about.
I feel like 1/2 of my life has been a lie. I always figured "a C, is a C, is a C". Now I'm very curious about how those who play transposed instruments deal with communication / improvising in an informal musical situation (i.e., people getting together to "jam", etc.).
Thank you for an OUTSTANDING video! It is bookmarked, and I will watch it quite a few times, I'm sure.
Thank you! I was really confused about why and how you deal with transposing instruments, and this totally answered both questions
Super helpful! Great speed and clear explanations and awesome examples. Thanks!
Excellent explanation. Thank you Dr. Hoffman!
Well explained. Important stuff. Thank you.
WOW Thank you so much and God bless. This is really helpful even though I am not that much knowing music but helped me to create a melody from piano to Clarinet :-). God bless really!!
Wow your explanation was very clear - Dr Hoffman you are an excellent educator thankyou
Thank you for putting this in everyday language ...
Very well explained, thank you.
Thank you for this helpful video.
You can always turn up your microphone volume
Great Video. Thanks a lot.
thanks so much! such a helpful video, there's not a lot of videos or info on understanding instrumental tranposition. Very helpful and important l for any style of music.
Thank you so much! This helped out a ton
A pity so many pay no attention to theory. I remember my clarinet teacher, bewildered when I told her I tuned my open G to F on my piano. Yes she had been playing and teaching junior clarinet for 30 years !! She "corrected" me when I raised the Circle of Fifths - yes it is Fourths backwards, I know. It actually took me ages to realise that all Western music is based on intervals of the chromatic scale so the intervals are constant just the start note differs. I am surprised that the Viola was not mentioned as they play from the C clef and that has bamboozled the Bass player standing behind them 😊 I wish I had seen this video a year or two ago. Thank you
Well to be fair, most clarinet players would be bewildered when you talk about tuning open G, because it has such awful natural tuning that you just need to correct it while playing, by lowering your fingers over the tone holes so that they are not closed but there is something slightly above them, which makes the note a bit more flat (since it's naturally very sharp). But if there is a note you would tune it with, it would be the F on the piano, yes (assuming Bb clarinet).
Well done!
@kadimiRhythm
@UCUuD1rxI08vD-Czk06d94OQ
The C Tenor Sax (aka Melody sax because it can play melodies in unison w/ a variety of C instruments) since it's in Concert Pitch. Every note in the Sax Family is played w/ the same fingerings, same for Clarinet Family, Trumpet Family, & the Flute family. The F alto flute transposes down a fifth from concert pitch (like the French Horn and English Horn/F Alto Oboe).
Trombones are normally pitched in Bb or F. They are therefore transposing instruments however in orchestral music they are written as they are not. The player compensates. In brass bands or concert bands they are written as transposing instruments. Hence moving between the genre's need to relearn positions to written notes. The exception to this rule is bass trombone which is written at concert pitch in all forms of music.
This helped a lot!
And tenor trombone is technically also a Bb instrument, but for some reason the score is always in C and then there is that Bass clef that you have to learn, when it would be so simple if they just do it the same as with a trumpet.
@kadimiRhythm
@UCUuD1rxI08vD-Czk06d94OQ
The fingerings for all saxophones are the same, it's also true for the Clarinet family, trumpet family, oboe family, & others. The G Alto flute is my favorite, which transposes down a fourth from concert pitch so it's range is the same as a Violin. The Mezzo-Soprano Oboe in A transposes down a Minor third from concert pitch. The Cammerton Organ transposes up a whole step.
There is also a C sax, which avoids transposition.
Why would something in the key of E transpose to F# on Bb clarinet? Does the score and key signature not go down a major second as opposed to going upward a major second?
are there no horns clarinets trumpets in c?
can saxophones play in sharp keys?
Then you have the brass band world- trombones, euphoniums and tubas in Eb and Bb....
And read in treble clef....
I don't get why they make all instruments different like this. Why can't they just say a C is a C no matter what instrument u play
If you go to approximately 7:10, where he discusses the four main members of the saxophone family, he explains the complications that would occur if they were all written at concert pitch (in particular the problem of having too many different fingerings to learn).
It can also be used to avoid a player having to play in a more-extreme key compared to if s/he were to play the same piece in a simpler key on a different instrument in the same family, as illustrated in the later section when he discusses the comparisons between the Clarinet in B♭ versus the Clarinet in A. This can be found starting at approximately 9:06.
So it initially sounds confusing to have transposing instruments, but it is a necessary evil that actually makes things simpler for the player!
Actually, while we are on the subject of transposing instruments, two very common instruments - the guitar and bass guitar - are also transposing instruments even though usually they seem to have the same key signatures as scores for instruments playing in concert pitch. In fact, in such cases both instruments sound an octave lower than the printed note; this is simply to avoid having too many ledger lines when notated, which would make reading the music far too confusing.
***** But imagine if the notes on the piano changed. Suppose the note you call C was a D on organ, an E on harpsichord, and an F on synth. And I don't mean the sound, but the actual note. That is what wind players face. Try it. If you play piano, take a piece you know and shift all the notes up one. My head would explode. It's not impossible, I guess. Recorder players learn two different sets of fingerings. Clarinet players have different fingerings in different octaves. Horn players especially have to transpose a lot. But it makes it much easier all around.
Fingering on piano and on a wind instrument are not really comparable. On piano the notes are still the same regardless of which finger you p k at it with. On a wind instrument the notes themselves would be different.
Yee. Why can't it be a different "fingering" for every note to make that specific note?
it's really stupid and the explanation is that back when horns didn't have valves, you needed horns pitched in different pitches to play a song, so like, "this horn will play Bb, and this horn will play F" and I guess the people playing the instrument preferred reading it differently or something, but it stuck and now we can't undo it even if it's stupid and doesn't make sense anymore.
Hurts my head... I can't understand this. I'm trying to play Bb tenor saxophone music on trombone.
I've done the same thing (I play trombone). You want to transpose the Bb sax score (and key) down a major 2nd to sound like a trombone.
If you've got trombone music, you transpose it up a major third to play it with a Bb sax.
This is because the Bb sax sounds a major second lower than what is written. Trombone plays what is written, so the music must be transposed down a major second to sound like what it would be written for a C instrument (trombone).
Question: I play a Bb tuba, and it is not a transposing instrument. In fact, a C tuba, an F tuba, and an Eb tuba are also all "in C." We all read the same music, just change our fingerings to accommodate different notes. Now, I also play a Bb trumpet, and arrange music for all band instruments. While arranging from a piano score, I printed my trumpet music "in C" without transposing it. I recognized my mistake, but treated the music like a "tuba in Treble Clef." The notes, of course, read and sounded the same (Eb = 1 on tuba, and trumpet, technically F). I read the entire piece as if my trumpet were "in C." It was much easier. Is there a reason this is not common practice? If I can do this, why does transposition even exist? Thank you for your time.
tuner
It gets complicated when you have tenor or alto clefs
But no transposing instruments use those clefs so they are always in C. Meaning you only have to learn them once and they are both centered around middle C which makes them not so bad :)
If u want to know why transpnsing and u r lazy like me just watch from 7:10 to 8:00
I don't understand the reasoning that not transposing would require the player to "learn a bunch of different fingerings" for the same note. Middle C is middle C, no matter what kooky transposition scheme you're using, so whether we wrote it transposed or in the correct position, a sax player would still only have to use one fingering for that note. Yeah the fingering might be different across the sax family, but big deal! You learn multiple instruments, you learn multiple fingerings! As a clarinet player myself, I couldn't for the LIFE figure out why the composers of clarinet music didn't just write the notes out in sounding pitch. I'm smart enough to figure the fingerings out from there.
yeah I don't get it either, it's really that way because of the Brass family I believe and complications when they didn't have valves.
In other words, if you stood an alto sax player next to a tenor sax and instructed them both to blow a C note, neither C would sound the same as piano C.
Momo Symphonia Saxophones are already complicated. The C sax is insane. to keep the design and fingering the same for all in rhe sax family requires transposition because each one is different in length and so sound different. I imagine they could have fixed this when first designing them but that was before computers, etc. Bot easy with pencil and paper.
W H Y A R E N T T H E Y T H E S A M E N O T E S
@kadimiRhythm
@UCUuD1rxI08vD-Czk06d94OQ
The C Tenor Sax (aka Melody sax because it can play melodies in unison w/ a variety of C instruments) since it's in Concert Pitch. Every note in the Sax Family is played w/ the same fingerings, same for Clarinet Family, Trumpet Family, & the Flute family. The F alto flute transposes down a fifth from concert pitch (like the French Horn and English Horn/F Alto Oboe).
@kadimiRhythm
@UCUuD1rxI08vD-Czk06d94OQ
The fingerings for all saxophones are the same, it's also true for the Clarinet family, trumpet family, oboe family, & others. The G Alto flute is my favorite, which transposes down a fourth from concert pitch so it's range is the same as a Violin. The Mezzo-Soprano Oboe in A transposes down a Minor third from concert pitch. The Cammerton Organ transposes up a whole step.
@kadimiRhythm
@UCUuD1rxI08vD-Czk06d94OQ
The C Tenor Sax (aka Melody sax because it can play melodies in unison w/ a variety of C instruments) since it's in Concert Pitch. Every note in the Sax Family is played w/ the same fingerings, same for Clarinet Family, Trumpet Family, & the Flute family. The F alto flute transposes down a fifth from concert pitch (like the French Horn and English Horn/F Alto Oboe).