Concert Pitch and Transposing?? Your Music Theory Homework (Episode 4)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2022
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A useful trick for trombone players that want to read Bb treble music (trumpet, clarinet, tenor sax, etc.) - you can pretend it is in tenor clef and then just add two flats to the key signature (to "un-Bb" it). You'll have to be careful with accidentals since some will be odd but it works well
you can use a similar concept for Eb instruments. read it in bass clef and add 3 flats. really helpful if you are reading bari sax parts.
@@zzUchihaxx Yep, this is also really nice. For F parts it's a bit less useful, but you can imagine it's mezzo-soprano clef (alto clef with everything shifted down one line/space) and then add 1 flat. Not that anyone reads mezzo-soprano cleff lol
Sorry Chris, a few inaccuracies here. The Horn is typically 18 feet long (although there is an uncommon descant horn in F that is only 9 feet) - but the players play up an octave higher than compared to other brass instruments. Your comments about Tuba are only true with Bb tubas - if you give it to CC tubas, or Eb, or F tubas then it's a different case. Also, with brass band instruments, treble clef is written as transposing clef, whilst bass clef is in concert pitch, regardless of the instrument playing it. I've made a video on this topic too :)
Yeah an F mellophone would have been a more fitting instrument to use as an example than the French horn
Also, if a Trombone were to read a Treble clef G, they would play an F. I have no earthly idea why a Trombone player would subject themselves to doing that...perhaps they have a Euphonium friend that grew up in a broken home, and they don't want them to feel bad about reading the wrong clef. 🤣
TIL the French Horn fundamental is below the trombone fundamental. (And yes we're talking NOT British Bb treble clef here for sake of clarity)
@@classicaltrombone My understanding is the fundamental of the F side of the french horn has the same fundamental as the F extension on a bass trombone. The Bb side of the french horn has the same fundamental of a regular Bb tenor trombone. The primary difference is the french horn's most usable range tends to sit higher (cylindrical vs conical bores).
@@horndude77 this doesn't have much to do with the bore. take for example flugelhorns - they have a conical bore, same tube length as a trumpet, yet most trumpet players say that the high range is a bit easier on a trumpet than a flugelhorn. I guess it's the mouthpiece of the french horn that's kind of in between trombone and trumpet in terms of size which makes the usable range sit higher relative to the tube length.
I play tuba and baritone, but don’t know diddly about music theory…this was one of the first comprehendable explanations of the whole “concert pitch” thing I’ve seen!
4th video..
And finally understood.
U explained it bloody well..
Talking bout old legacy problem is what made sense..
Thank you! As a high school trombone player I had no clue what everyone was talking about with transposing etc. now I love the trombone even more.
Great video! Thank you so much! This is so complicated, but you made it seem very simple.
This is probably my favorite video!!! You just answered the question I've always wanted to know the reason of.
I agree. The reason for the difference in concert pitch vs written pitch is because of the instruments of different sizes in different keys. by rewriting the music the player does not have to learn a different sent of fingerings for each size instrument. It is the same with woodwind instruments except for the recorders. Since they did not make it into our modern orch. the fingerings and music are different for each size recorder,
You explained this video in just seconds. Bravo!
Nice class, Chris. Thanks.
Love you💗💗
Wow! That is BEAUTIFULLY explained are you mad? 😂 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Here in Germany the trombone and baritone play a c as a b-flat if it is written in treble clef and a c as a c if it is written in bass-clef.
But not for church music where a c is always a c.
I think the root of this system comes from the time when instruments did not have valves. E.g. if you have a French Horne in F and you play something it is written in C but it is played in F. Then switch to a French Horn built for in B-flat and play the music again. Now you it is played in B-flat. This was important in those times when the sheets are handwritten. Nobody wants to rewrite the music sheets for a whole orchestra by hand just to change the key.
As explained more here (2:30 ...) before the French Horn had valves they used crooks to change the open note of the instrument.
but why?? Bb is just a tone lower than C, why not produce those instruments a bit smaller, so their home scale would be C major like with most instruments? fifth down will make an F (instead of Eb), which is one step on the circle of fifth - no craziness like A major turning into freaking Gb major with 6 signs!
Sorry to disappoint you Mr Bill. The Horn in F is actually about 12 foot long same as contrabass trombone in F and bass tubas in F. Due to the small bore and small mouthpiece it's "easy" harmonics start not at the 2nd and 3rd like on most brass but at about the 12th which is why it is such a hard instrument.
Edit. The Horn in F reading standard treble clef sounds a fifth lower than written rather than a fourth higher. It sounds a fourth higher in old style bass clef.
I played the alto sax in high school band . Which is pitched in Eb. And I was told that that a decision was made to keep the fingering for the entire saxophone family the same. but because the different saxophones are physically different sizes with different tube lengths the note pitches will not be the same. While it does make it easier for you to learn one saxophone and be able to switch to any other saxophone, the pitch will be different so it's still confusing anyway.
It comes in very handy for Tubas, while BBb tubas are common for HS level band, up higher as a tuba you may be tasked with BBb, CC, F, EEb or all different keys. By knowing the treble clef transposing music you can pretty much just pick up the Tuba best for the role with the sheet music for it and play it withouth having to relearn fingerings. Also handy when moving between Baritone and Tenor horn. I think that is the most reason it has stuck around as it is quite common in the brass world to not be tasked to a single intrument. Tuba players are likely to play several different tubas, using CC tubas where they want bottom end and EEb or FF where they need faster more nimble parts. Tenor horn and trombonists to double on Euphoniums, Trumpets handeling Piccillo Trumpets and Fluglehorns, etc.
It keeps things easy where you don't have to give as much thought to the fingerings and as such can give more to dynamics and articulation.
For very similar reasons, engineers in my field still use Imperial units instead of SI. In international collaborations, lives are on the line, and it remains an issue nonetheless.
First day of grade 7 I got my trumpet assigned, didn't even wait to get home before I had it out and was looking at the fingering chart. Up to that point I had perfect pitch and on playing "middle C" immediately realized something was very wrong!
Since then, my perfect pitch sadly disintegrated: I'll think of a note, then question if it's concert or trumpet, then transpose, then question, then transpose... in short its a mess.
Just something to consider if you're considering trumpet and have perfect pitch: you may want to stick to B flat instruments if your perfect pitch is important to you.
There is some inverse in that in the long term. I started on Trombone and so all my early stuff was in concert pitch bass clef, but I branched out into much more low brass including Tuba, baritone and euphonium and had to tackle transposing parts later. Which hits on the big thing, while in initial schooling you tend to just be the one instrument when you move up into more advanced performance bands you tend to not be confined to a single instrument. It is common in Brass bands and Symphonies for Tuba players for example to have several different tubas, a CC, FF and EEb being the most common because BBb tends to be somewhat sloppy but balanced, where you would tend to be using your CC tuba for music that needs more bottom end, and then EEb for parts or music where it asks for a much more nimble performance, and parts tend to suddenly be all written in transposing so you don't need to think at all about different fingerings when moving between the instruments.
I remember having to just beat concert pitch music out of my head. It would have been nice to have gotten that initially. So in some ways why you may have struggled, you are actually starting with a leg up.
@@tekcomputers You're not wrong: with stringed instruments you use the capo and that can also screw with perfect pitch, so the fact that I got that wrecked early on is not all bad.
Silver lining and all.
now lets expand beyond brass and introduce an alto flute and an alto sax. the alto flute is in G and the alto sax is in Eb. oh and also there are clarinets in A, and tons of more obscure instruments in even weirder keys.
There is another interesting thing about trumpet players and the whole notated vs played tones: In symphonic music (e. g. Richard Strauss, Gustav Mahler, etc) there are no notated pitches (so no flats or sharps at the front of every line), but instead it states in which key the piece should be played. These key typically change during a piece - so a classical trumpet player has to transpose the notated music to the pitch his instrument is actually tuned in.
And then it gets more confusing in British brass bands: Bass trombone is in bass clef C , tenor trombones are written in Treble clef Bb
It's a good point! They stayed true to the Bb transportation of the instrument for tenor and baritone.
Danish brass band player here is the same. It did make it easier to go from Eb horn to Tenor trombone since I just needed to translate valves to slide positions. But I do try to learn bass clef C.
Brass band 1st and 2nd trombones play same notated notes as trumpet in treble clef
We were taught in orchestration class that All horns sound "down", meaning that a French horn given a middle C sounds the F one fifth below, not the F one fourth above.
So as a trombone player, when I see a G, play a G, and it comes out as a G, is that because (a) trombones are non-valved and can play any tone within their range, (b) music composers simply got lazy and said f... it, just print a G if the trombone is supposed to play a G, or (c) the whole trombone section formed a union and had it written in their contract to only play the notes on the page in front of them no matter how it sounded?
And...I collect and play alto/tenor horns pitched in Eb...and antique mellophones, where each horn can be set up to play in C, D, Eb or F. Lol! Oy! If I want a G...I'll grab a harmonica!🙄
Notification squad
An F mellophone might have been a better example than the french horn because it's overtone series (number of partials) is similar to the other examples. A french horn is double the length of a mellophone and has some extra partials that a mellophone, trumpet, baritone, tuba, and trombone don't have.
🥲🥲🥲
@@classicaltrombone I've been primarily trombone/baritone for many years and started learning mellophone and trumpet recently (for fun) and my reading trick is to pretend I'm sight reading tenor clef and adjust the key since all the notes are in the same place lol
Something frustrating for complete newbies is buying their first transposing instrument (ie Alto Sax) and thinking there's something wrong with it when using a tuner. Ask me how I know. 😂
advice on writing candeza?
Interesting!! So, a valve trombone will play the same than a trumpet 🎺 if read in treble clef !!
same thing can be applied to baritone/euphonium that reads in treble clef :)
@@zzUchihaxx and tuba, as tubas up and the symphony level are usually written in treble clef.
Asked the wrong question. The bass clef is the weird one, most instruments play treble clef and all need to transpose to play concert pitch. Trombone plays one note higher than concert pitch just like a trumpet would to make it sound concert pitch
Actually Bill was approaching from the US perspective. In the US trombone plays concert pitch, students are taught concert pitch sheet music for Trombone, this is also done in the US for baritones and tubas. I didn't start reading from transposing parts till shifted from Trombone to Tuba in highschool for symphonic band and was tasked to Euphonium sometimes where about 1/2 the music was written transposing.
In a way I think it is a disservice, It would have been much nicer to have gotten that earlier, as you tend to see a lot of parts written transposing for low brass up at the symphony level, as I remember sort of having to untrain myself from the concert notation.
Here’s my question
How did you hit a D6 in your intro
I just make my lips go squeeeeeeeeeee
Do giant steps
As a trombone player, I sure expect to be given bass clef music lol
Tenor clef has entered chat 👀
But…if the trumpet fundamental is a Bb, why not write it there in the first place? (Disregard the horn for a moment).
The real reason is it is effectively its own convention so that you don't need to think as much about fingerings when moving between instruments. At the symphony level for example all brass parts tend to be written in treble clef with the exception of trombone (which is more often tenor clef there), and it is common for trumpets to be in different keys (C, G, Eb) for trumpets to double on piccolo trumpets (often in A), baritones (in Bb) to double on tenor horns (often in Eb) and tubas to commonly swap between CC, FF, and EEb as the different tubas perform differently (with CC being better for parts that need a lot of bottom end while EEb is useful where the parts are faster paced requiring a lot of nimbleness).
So if you normally play a say Bb trumpet, and for this one part we need a piccolo trumpet in A, you can swap to the piccolo trumpet in A and be able to play the same "notes" on the paper without needing to relearn fingerings, and as such give more thought to articulation, dynamics and such. Or same with barritone if we need an extra tenor part, the baritone player can swap to a tenor with the part written in tenor and play the same familiar fingering. Or the person normally playing CC tuba can swap to an EEb with the part for EEb and play the same familiar fingerings.
So effectively the transposing tenor clef parts are its own convention so that basically all valved instruments are using the same fingering tied to the notes on the paper, with all the transposing work being done by the arranger rather than on the fly with the player.
Brilliant! As a flute player (a normal instrument...in C!) this was most helpful; BUT as a flute player, what the heck was that picture you showed of the flute player? Yikes! 😉
😁 stock photos are WILD
I had to ask myself why the hell I clicked on this video. But I just started playing the piano after my retirement, and so it's a new world. Actually you might be able to help me since I wanted to work on hand independence on the piano. So I played the treble clef with my right hand and the trombone with my left hand.
I learned quite quickly to make sure my sneakers weren't unlaced.
Any other pointers?
playing trombone with your left hand while piano with your right? Amazing skill!
So essentially transposed instruments are transposed because why not. Got it 😂
It's probably that way because you can have trumpets, clarinets, saxes, etc in various different keys without the player having to learn multiple fingering systems and clefs. Playing a saxophone, it doesn't matter if you're on sopranino or a bass if you see a certain note that has the same fingering no matter what pitch saxophone you're using. This also means a saxophonist only needs to be able to read treble clef no matter what kind of sax(es) they play. A player who plays soprano, alto, tenor, and bari would have to be comfortable with four different fingering sets and probably bass, alto/tenor, and treble clefs if we used concert pitch for them. You'd have a similar situation for a trumpet player that played various sized trumpets as well.
@@kastonmurrell6649 This is the reason why it has hung around. It is common at high music levels, especially up at symphony levels for brass players especially to double up on other instruments or swap instruments that are in a different key because a music part requires it. Trumpets in C, Bb and Eb get common piccolo trumpets in A, Tubas in CC, GG, FF, and EEb, Baritones to double on Tenor horns (typically in Eb). Everyone knowing to read transposing you just swap to the instrument in the key best suited to the part with the music written for that instrument and since you are reading transposing you don't have to put any thought really into fingering and so can concentrate all on articulation, dynamics, etc.
So a trumpet is a Bb instrument because without pressing any valves it sounds a Bb, sure, so why don't woodwinds follow this rule? If you don't press any keys on a flute it sounds a C#, alto sax would be E, clarinet would be F
Because last time I checked those instruments don't use the overtone series like brass instruments.
@@NotBroihon that makes sense, the flute can also do harmonics similar to a brass instrument but it's not as big a deal as it is for brass
The very very simplified version is that it was like a recorder that only played in one key, and then they added holes and buttons until they could play all of the notes but it was still named after the original key. (In most but not all cases)
In (I think) every woodwind instrument (except for one, that I'm aware of), all 6 main holes/keys closed/pressed (index, middle and ring fingers in both hands), they call it either a D or a G. All of them. Therefore, you just learn 2 base fingerings (with some adjustments, especially for alterations) and can finger (I'd say play, but playing an instrument is obviously more than fingering) any woodwind instrument.
Y
Please stop saying the horn has the same fingerings as the trumpet. People believe this and then wonder why it doesn't work.
Technically, a French horn DOES have the exact same fingerings as the trumpet, however the horn’s fundamental range is an octave lower than theirs, and is also in concert F instead of concert Bb. So, the correct fingerings for a horn’s C scale starting at pedal C (2nd line bass clef) are identical to a trumpet’s middle C scale, and middle C scale for horn is identical to a trumpet’s third space C scale. You just have to begin on the designated instrument’s C pitch for that to be true.
@@nicknotes19 I know.
None of that matters when you point to written pitches and say they have the same fingerings when they don't.
The thing is, it will mostly work. For any pitch with a given fingering you can play an octave up with the same fingering. There's usually a better choice, but it can work. th-cam.com/video/qfNKS8ilMW8/w-d-xo.html
Great explanation! Typical trumpet players. They had to be special. ;)
If you played any open string on a guitar none of them would play a C...just saying...