@@clairewritesmusic It is actually although most non english countries it's called a fagotinno those can be an octave higher, g or f. we also have a normal basson then there's the semi-contrabassoon, the bassoon in g/f but then an octave lower, the contrabassoon, en then we have a crazy guy working on a believe it or not, a subcontrabassoon. So only the bassoon and contrbassoon may be used but the family is bigger then we may think. the tenoroon is in actuality a real intstrument with real repertoire and real historical pieces...
Loved this video! Maybe consider including the saxophone family in another video? I know, a late addition to the orchestral repertoire, but they are used in some pretty famous pieces. 😀
I would considering destroying a saxophone family in another video 😜 Nah, I’m kidding. Not kidding about not liking them… but they’re still worth learning about 😅
@@vacuumlover1 I honestly don't know why 🤣 I'm a bit afraid thinking about it too much will bring up some horrible memory, so I'll carry on avoiding them!
I love the sound of the woodwind section as an ensemble "instrument". It has a wider range of tonal colors than the other instrument classes and seems to be used for more nuanced emotions than the strings or brass. The range of tonal color also allows woodwinds to converse among themselves, trading melodies between the different instruments.
please please please, when writing for bassoon, don't be afraid to use the high register. depending on your ensemble the high register might be the best to use on a bassoon. you can go all the wat up to c3 if you want, I think that's on the really high register, and we can easily play 4 octaves...
As a strings player, I tent to struggle more with the wind instruments when composing. Recently, I started learning to play the bassoon (my favourite!) to get more familiar with the fingering issues and breath management within my pieces. It also always helps me to watch some videos on the topic - like right now - before diving into writing the winds. Thank you for making excelent educational content, I'm subscribing!
As a bassoonist, I have used the same process to learn more about writing for strings. I have to say that my attempts at learning the cello have not been as productive. 😅
Ultimate respect for anyone who takes up the bassoon 🙌🙌 and @ianwheeler5756 I agree to an extent, but it's still frustrating turning up at a session and seeing woodwind parts that are written as though we don't have to breathe! A lot of chat about needing oxygen tanks tends to follow...
Very useful information. I finally now understand why certain instruments are transcribed. The woodwinds add wonderful tonal complexity to the orchestral sound. I love the way Stravinksy uses them in Rite of Spring.
Great explanation! I just want to add that some bass clarinets, notably student models, only go down to a concert Db instead of the Bb below it. If you're writing for non-professional players, assume a low Db.
Actually, That is a Db concert. The player's lower note is a Eb. Unless, they have one of the newer instruments that add the D, Db, and C (in pitch of Bb) so the instrument matches the Bassoon's and Cellos lowest notes.
I play the b flat clarinet, but also used to play the contra-alto clarinet, where I had to sit on stacked chairs to play it. It’s between the bass and contra bass clarinet.
I really enjoyed this and the graphs used as well. I also enjoyed learning more on the obeo family since I haven't heard of a couple of them before and for got that nor everyone calls the English Horn the English horn. But as someone who played contrabass and contraAlto clarinets in college and Bass Clarinet is more of my main instrument, I do wish that they would be included in full orchestras more often than they are. But understand why they're not included as often
Wonderful tour of the woodwinds! There's something that puzzles me, though. And now that this is the second place I've seen this apparent discrepancy, I gather that there must be conflicting conventions involved. Namely, the numbering of the octaves for musical notes. I'm used to having Middle C called C₄ and the standard 88-key piano run from A₀ to C₈. This is also kind of nice in that the famous Bösendorfer Imperial Grand, with 97 keys comprising 8 complete octaves, goes from C₀ to C₈. But here, and I believe I saw this in one of David Bennett's videos, Middle C is called C₃ and all the other notes are one unit lower as well. Are there different octave numberings in the US and UK? It seems to me that to avoid confusion, this is something that really ought to be standardized worldwide. Fred
Hi Fred, the convention we use is based on standard MIDI. By default, most programs use the Yamaha numbering for standard midi, which has Middle C as C3 (note number 60). So in a DAW or in the majority of samplers, that Bosendorfer would be C-1 to C7. The scientific system is the one we're all used to when looking at a score, and is an octave above. It's genuinely a bit annoying, but as the channel is making videos focussed around using virtual instruments we went with the MIDI numbering that people will usually see when programming parts in. A lot of people won't out there won't be instrumentalists or even read music, so these resources are aimed at anyone learning this for the first time, and it's easier to make it clear in the few 'range and register' videos we make by mentioning "MIDI C3, MIDI D4" etc. rather than to use the scientific system and have to address the note numbering issue in every other video.
@@alexlamymusic I see. Thanks for the clarification. So it sounds like MIDI (which is surely much more recent than the "scientific" one?) invented their own numbering system, not caring that it conflicts with the previously established system? And now, to avoid confusion, everyone has to remember to specify which system is being used to name a musical note. Thanks, MIDI! IMHO, any system that needs negative subscripts for the lowest few notes on a standard piano, is a stupid choice.
Addendum: I definitely don't mean to say that I think your choice is stupid, but that MIDI/Yamaha's was. You made a perfectly logical choice based on what you're given to work with, which follows from all the reasons you give. Just wanted to clarify that.
@@ffggddss No worries, I understand! I'm not sure what lead to the decision but I'm assuming there was something logical, as initially around the creation of MIDI Yamaha used C3 for note 60, and Roland used C4. MIDI is based on a system of 128 bits (0-127), so there are 128 available note numbers, and either system would make use of minus numbers, C-2 for Yamaha (going up to G8), C-1 for Roland (going up to G9). Weirdly the minus numbers are kind of useful and logical for programming keyswitches that change articulations. You can still use the Roland system in a DAW, but it's not the default, so people don't really use it. Personally, I don't think it's something that comes up ever, until we make a video like this! The only other situation is where somebody might be talking to a player about a note (from their MIDI), but there's always relative reference on the player's score, (e.g. D on the staff, D below the staff, above and below middle C etc.). It's interesting seeing from this video and the other similar ones on the channel is that it's something that anyone who deals with MIDI on a regular basis doesn't bat an eye at. But musicians, for whom MIDI isn't really relevant, seem to have a harder time accepting that there are two ways of doing things co-existing. That's also not a criticism in any way either, it's also natural that learning about MIDI after always dealing with the scientific system would just be kind of annoying! 😅
What an excellent summary! She left off the contra-alto clarinet and the rare C soprano clarinet but I forgive her :). Also, some of us double in pit orchestras between different families and with large instruments, as she mentions, it can be difficult to make fast changes. I recently played Sondheim’s “Company” where my reed book called for Bb clarinet, bass clarinet, baritone sax, and bassoon. I took up fair amount of room in the pit. Finally, it is true that if you can play one clarinet or saxophone, you can play them all with no real fingering changes, just spacing and relative hand placement but bassoons and contrabassoons are quite different from each other. The notes from open F in the staff downward are similar but the keys are a different shape. F# to Ab on the top line start to diverge from each other and the notes from A up are very different between a bassoon and contrabassoon. Also, contrabassoons do not have a whisper key like a bassoon does so when I first learned my contra, I was constantly mashing the C# key and making my contra sound like some poor animal in distress.
I've always known Middle C to be called C4, not C3. Why do you call it C3? I am a composer as well and when you mentioned the upper note of the piccolo as being C7, I was confused because I know it to be C8. That's when I discovered that you are naming them different from the standard names. American Standard Pitch Notation (ASPN) and International Pitch Notation (IPN) both call Middle C C4. With your notation, then the Contrabassoon's lowest sounding note would be in the -1 octave.
The numbering system we use is the one for MIDI. We usually say "MIDI C3" (which is middle C in MIDI). It's a pain, honestly... thinking in both systems is annoying. But the way instruments are programmed, and DAWs work uses the MIDI format for numbering pitches, and there are no resources out there for this, so we committed to making some!
I was confused by that too. Apparently DAWs can usually be customised to show middle C as either C4 or C3. The MIDI standard doesn't actually specify which C it is, just that it's a C, and two systems for interpreting note values into pitches were developed. Also I found this: th-cam.com/video/m5uTOU6Hojg/w-d-xo.html
@@JScaranoMusic True, initially Yamaha and Roland couldn't agree on it, and we're here talking about it 40 years later! But the default setting is to display C3, and so if we change it then we also have to specify that to anyone who is more familiar with a DAW than a score. One way or the other, half of the audience complain!
@@alexlamymusic the default in what? Every piece of music software I've used, right back to Finale and Cubase and MusicWorks in the '90s, have used used C4 as middle C by default. Also the MIDI standard _doesn't_ specify. It just says note 60 is a C, but which octave that C is in is up to how the MIDI data is interpreted by whatever program is rendering that MIDI data into sound. I don't think "half" is anywhere near accurate. I'd be very surprised if less than 90% of your audience agreed on middle C = C4. Teaching that there are two systems and how they came about is actually really interesting, and it's fine to use C3 as middle C if you clarify, which you did, but it's inaccurate to say C3 = middle C by default, unless you're referencing a specific piece of software where that happens to be the default.
@@JScaranoMusic it’s the default in Logic and Cubase, Kontakt, SINE Player etc. I can’t recall a time seeing the scientific numbering system in the last 20 years other than in Vienna Symphonic Library instruments and notation software. Default means you have to change it from ‘Middle C Displays as C3’. I think I mentioned in another comment, if I put C3 in a file name and auto-map it in a sampler, it will go to midi note 60.
I'm not a Woodwind player. However, I love the tone. Curiosity question; when you displayed the range relitive to the piano, around the C3 area you have the words middle C. I was under the impression that the middle C, was C4. Can you explain please.
I've been working on a story about someone who plays bassoon...and although i have musical training and experience, it isn't wirh THAT instrument. I'm glad I found this video...there are certain things I wasn't able to research otherwise. And I'll make some alterations to the story based on what I've learned here. Thanks!
That's awesome! Have you dug into the reed-making side of things at all?! That's something I've always found fascinating about pro double reed players - the job is half being great at your instrument, half arts&crafts 😂
😂 heckelphone got a mention as it's an auxiliary of the oboe family, whereas saxophones are kind of their own thing - but I don't think it would necessarily be accurate for a "basics of the ww section" video to say there were 5 woodwind families, one of which is saxophone. It definitely deserves an honourable mention but it's still reasonably rare in classical rep, whereas the other 4 families are almost always represented! Still it's good to know the saxophone community is thriving 🎷💪😂
@@clairewritesmusic It's reasonably rare in classical ORCHESTRA rep but it's essential in wind band music. Imagine Lincolnshire Posy with no saxophones.
I played Bb clarinet and EbAlto clarinet in concert wind band for years. I'd place the chalumeau register split higher at Bb4-D5, there's a major fingering break that has to be navigated there. The reason for Bb and A is the Bb-clarinet fingerings favors the flat side of the Circle of Fifths, and the A-clarinet favors the sharp side of the Circle. Bb and A are only a semitone apart, but nearly on opposite sides of the Circle of Fifths. Playing in Amaj on a Bb-clarinet can be very challenging. With an Eb-Alto near impossible.
The Bassoon family is actually pretty big, there G and F tenoroons and the Contraforte which is an amazing instrument with about four octaves of range.
Great stuff. Best simple explanation of transposing instruments. Try some Jethro Tull on the flute. Me being from Belfast, I am sick of hearing Piccolos! de de DE DE DE DE Deeee de DEEE lol
This was very helpful to me. You're a good teacher. It's the first time I think transposition may have clicked for me. Please tell me if I've grasped it: if I add a composer want, say, the b-flat clarinet, to play a D note, I'd write it as E... is that correct? If I got the notes wrong, am I at least correct that the point here is that the composer writes for such an instrument knowing that what they'll actually get is however many semitones away from what they've written? Thanks, I come from a rock guitar background, self taught, no theory under my belt, but I've become interested in writing orchestral stuff, so I've been devouring videos like this!
Great video!! In transposing instruments, say you see middle C but you hear Bd when played. Does this mess with your ear training? As surely your brain comes to associate the sound Bd with the written note C? I can't get my head around it, and it puts me off learning a transposing instrument, like clarinet. Could you clarify? Thanks!👍
Yeah, I think if you have relative pitch it's not such a problem, but if you have perfect pitch it can be confusing! I've been playing a lot of alto flute lately (which is in G), and that definitely messes with my brain a bit! But wouldn't let it put you off learning a transposing instrument, it's just a little extra work out for your brain 💪💪
@clairewritesmusic thanks for the reply. I see I put the Bb the wrong way around Bd! As a dyslexic I do things like that all the time. Maybe because I'm dyslexic the transposing thing confuses me more than average? The fact that playing a G instrument messed with your brain worried me a bit?? I don't have perfect pitch. I've played piano now for a few years or so. I thought being dyslexic it could be a real problem, using left and right hands and reading two clefs at the same time, but it's been surprisingly okay. Also tried violin for a few years, but stopped playing just before Lockdown, and keep going on piano teaching myself. I'd like to play another instrument beside piano. I was thinking of clarinet, but it being transposing does put me off. I might just give it ago, I like the sound, that's important. Thanks for your video I learnt a lot and then watched the one on Brass and then strings!👍🎵
@@sandrafrancis3631 you should absolutely give the clarinet a go, it's a gorgeous instrument & it's got the best of all worlds - soft & mellow when it wants to be, or bold & razzy! I honestly don't think the transposing thing will be an issue at all - and when I say it messed with my brain on alto flute, I just mean that I had to put in a little extra effort as I have perfect pitch, so the pitch I'm expecting isn't the pitch that comes out. But definitely don't let it put you off!
As a clarinetist *I demand more time from composers to put down a Bb clarinet and grab a bass clarinet WITH ONLY A MEASURE REST IN 4/4* We have to adjust a floor peg before we can start playing. The floor peg cannot be extended when the instrument is resting in a stand. The bass clarinet will twist and maybe fall if the peg isn’t fully retracted.
I would strongly recommend against doubling a bassoon. They are most likely to get expensively damaged and tend to need to be warmed up to play outside the easiest octave and a half. There are extensions for a normal bassoon to play more easily in the contra's normal range. There are also rarer relatives in the tenoroon and an instrument called a contra forte. The tenoroon is an octave higher than the bassoon and will play above middle C much more easily. The contraforte has a smoother sound than a normal contrabassoon. If you do double them in person, the player is going to ideally have an instrument stand, something to keep the reeds optimally soaked, and have warmed up the off hand instrument before the session. A cold swap would otherwise take at least a minute.
I’d generally agree with that advice, but the thing to do would be to ask the orchestra or the player you’re writing for. If you’re doing something where there isn’t another option, and maybe one piece or movement is on a bassoon and another on contrabassoon, then I don’t see the problem. As far as recording goes, the bassoonists will probably be asking to double 😉 💷 There are very few practical problems with it in a recording session beyond the extra cost. You can stop and drop in for instrument changes, or do them at other parts of a session, or as overdubs, or any way you like.
Haha yes very true about session players being more than happy to double 🤑 and it does happen in orchestra rep (currently touring the Rite of Spring in which the 4th bassoon doubles contra!) but you're absolutely right that it's not as easy as doubling flute/picc for example, and it's more common for contra to be left to a specialist player. I'd never heard of the contra forte, I'll have to look that up! 😊
Even though I do not play saxophone, I do believe they should be included in the woodwind family when it comes to orchestration. Without the saxophone family, we wouldn’t of had the iconic solo in “The Old Castle” which is a part of pictures at an exhibition. Or the iconic solos in Ravels Bolero. Also, I want to start a movement called “stop calling my bass clarinet a saxophone”
@@Hydro1278 also, fun fact for those who confuse my instrument with a saxophone: The first modern bass clarinet was invented by Adolph sax in 1838. The saxophone followed in the late 1840s.
This is such a good resource, but the ranges became confusing when middle C is usually named C4 instead of C3. I had not realized there is some controversy over this.
A bassoonist here, if I had a dollar for every time someone has thought it is an oboe or asked me how long I've played the oboe... And then there are the people who ask me "what is that thing?"
IIRC the Bass Clarinet and Bb Clarinet are the most common. I’ve played the latter and seen the former as early as my middle school band class. It also helps that the Bb Clarinet is pitched the same as the Tenor Saxophone, so I was actually able to jump between the 2 But as to some of my own thoughts, I’ve always loved the tenor saxophone because I can make it sound like a boat horn with some of its lowest notes 😂
I play all the woodwinds: clarinets, oboe, cor anglais, flute, piccolo, bassoon and saxophones. I will point out that in your discussion of the clarinet family, you left out the contralto clarinet--half way between the bass clarinet and the contrabass clarinet. Also, when you mentioned the Bb and A clarinets, you referred to them as "twins." I've played them both in orchestras and they are completely different instruments. Lastly, you said that the altissimo of the clarinet is similar to the saxophone in tone quality. This is completely untrue--the clarinet altissimo is quite loud, piercing and even screechy. The saxophone's tone quality is warm and rounded. 🙂
Middle C is MIDI Note Number 60. This can be C3 or C4, or even C2 or C5. There is no defined standard or convention. The MIDI standard only says that the note number 60 is a C, it does not say of which octave. C4 should have been used for middle c here.
@@Kind-Regards_Musicannoyingly there is a convention that 60 is middle C. If I build an instrument in Kontakt and label a sample ‘C3’, it will map to 60. When I press middle C down, in the piano roll of any DAW, and even in the main display at the top of Logic, you’ll see the note come up as C3.
Yeah have to second Alex here, I think the majority of people watching these videos will be composing in a DAW so it made sense to correspond with that!
@@alexlamymusicthis video is about acoustic instruments, I don’t really see why anyone would believe a midi numbering convention should trump a system real musicians actually use. There are only two of these, scientific pitch notation (middle C=C4) and Helmholtz (C=C2, c=C3, c’= middle C). I have a masters degree in music theory and composition, before anyone quips I don’t know what I’m talking about.
Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon and French Horn. But French Horn is actually a member of the brass family, it just makes a special guest appearance for wind quintets!
I’m going to call foul on the idea that "unlike brass", the woodwind section has multiple families. Even if we set aside historical context, there are at least four ways to categorize brass instruments based on how pitch changes are achieved. The issue is that most modern orchestras tend to ignore two of these categories and only include one type of slide instrument. Brass families can also differ based on their taper and whether they’re whole or half-tubed. Also, if we look at how instruments function and produce sound on a physical level (and ignore their history), oboes and bassoons would technically belong to the same family (Hornbostel-Sachs 422.111.2 - double reed, single-aerophone, with regular bore and fingerholes). In contrast, trumpet (423.231), tuba (323.232), and trombone (423.221) would still be considered separate families.
As a composer, graduating with a Master in Music for Film and Television, I still humble myself, and go back to videos like these. Also, what I find a bit disheartening is that, on many scores, today, the woodwinds are almost non-existent. Many scores have low brass, drums, and lots of synth tracks. I am a major fan of John Williams, as he is a master at writing for woodwinds. Sadly, his kind of orchestration is become more rare by the year. I LOVE woodwinds, and will continue writing pieces that have them.
Really great to read this, it’s exactly why we wanted to make videos like this one, so that they’ll be useful resources for years to come :) Don’t be disheartened though. Things go in and out vogue. Orchestral Woodwinds in film scores we’re even rarer 10 years ago! And I quite like that we get a lot of low-winds in use these days, Contrabass Clarinets and Contrabassoons, Bass Flutes and Alto flutes and so on. It’s not the same type of orchestral writing as John Williams, but as much of JW fan as I am (and I really am!) I don’t think other composers need to be writing symphonic scores these days. There’s a very big scope to what you can do with a film score, and calling upon a more traditional orchestral sound can be done with good intention rather than just being the ‘default’ palette of a film score.
Great video. Claire briefly touches on the flute's tendency to get drowned by other sounds in its lower register, but I wish that she'd gone into that for all the wind instruments, especially the very easily drowned cor anglais and bassoon.
@@clairewritesmusic No, he hasn't. He very briefly glosses over orchestral balance with the flute, but his video is all about register quality, the advantages of the tone colors of each woodwind section, lyrical qualities, doubling with other sections of the orchestra, and woodwinds playing amongst themselves. It's a great video, but dynamic balance with the other orchestral sections in particular is pretty much not discussed. Things like the ease with which bassoons and especially English horns and alto flutes are made inaudible, the tendency of a loud piccolo to pierce through even a fortissimo tutti, the effect of suddenly masking a wind line with the addition of a string or brass line in the same register, etc. are major qualities that I've found critically important aspects of orchestration, and I'd love to hear about other composers' experiences in this regard.
@@MiloDCwe briefly touch on this issue in the first video on the channel, but it’s more in context to getting a realistic balance when programming. The truth is there’s a lot to cover, and we’re getting through the basics before doing more advanced topics. A more advanced general orchestration video might be the place to go through some of the things you’ve mentioned 👍🏻
I actually used to play saxophone in my school orchestra ! 😅 but we had 1 violin and 3 drumkits so it may not have been representative of a pro orchestra 🤔
@@alexlamymusic most people get their bad impressions of the saxophone from highschool, where they can be quite bad. However people who are half decent at the saxophone add quite a bit to the ensembles they're in. Try looking up arno bornkomp to hear some good classical saxophone
A note on doubling: As a general rule, do not assume that someone proficient on the primary woodwind (flute, oboe. clarinet, bassoon) will also be proficient on the other members of that woodwind family (or that they even own those instruments). If you write parts for these other instruments and they involve important solos or are technically difficult, consider writing these as separate parts rather than asking someone to double. That said, most people proficient on these other instruments usually both own and are also proficient on the standard instrument of their family. So for example, you can usually trust that most English horn players own and are proficient on oboe and it is therefore OK to ask the English horn player to double oboe, but not necessarily OK to ask your 2nd oboist to play English horn. And please don't ask the bass clarinetist to double on Eb clarinet ever (I'm talking to you Mahler ).
Yes, I've only known of them being used for kids who want to learn bassoon but aren't big enough to have a full size one! But I'm sure they're utilised in some rep, do you know of any?
From the Sarrusophone wikipedia: 'The sarrusophone is rarely called for in orchestral music. However, around the turn of the 20th century, the contrabass sarrusophones in EE♭ and CC enjoyed a vogue, the latter as a substitute for the contrabassoon... These parts are now normally played on the contrabassoon, although there are early 20th century recordings of at least some of these pieces where sarrusophones can be heard.' 'Today, the sarrusophone is used in a handful of symphonic wind ensembles and as a novelty instrument on occasions.'
Now with the AI, one of Optimus could volunteer if you call in sick. Everybody has a robot or a portion or share. If you teach a robot you build the cloud.
The "throat notes" of the clarinet (written F# to B♭) are actually part of the chalumeau. The clarino register starts with the first "overblown" note: B (written). And the high register ("altissimo") starts with written C#! 😁
@@clairewritesmusic The only piece I used the soprano sax on was _Perthshire Majesty_ by Samuel Hazo. The biggest challenge was carrying all my stuff onto and off of the stage.
@@pukalo And the second biggest challenge is playing in tune when you pick up a cold horn. Presumably you had time to at least blow some warm air through them before you had to play.
Yes I've actually never got why recorder isn't a transposing instrument! When I've occasionally had to double on treble recorder in West end shows, the part is actually written as a transposing instrument in the flute pad, so that the fingers correspond to flute fingerings ! 🤯
The numbering here is using the standard MIDI system of Middle C = C3. So we do get -1's for the lowest registers. It's frustrating for musicians, but it's better to use this system as the focus of the channel is programming virtual orchestrations with sampled instruments, and that's what you're going to see in a DAW as default.
@@MrDagonFire No, it doesn't. The main reason saxophone is not part of the traditional orchestral woodwind section is that it was invented about 1841, after most of the great classical composers had come and gone.
As a person that studied Bass Clarinet, our "comfortable range" is actually 4 octaves. Even a high schooler should be able to play their C Major scale in four octaves. Also, sad that we didn't see the other members of the clarinet family. There are definitely clarinets lower than the contrabass. But overall, nicely done video.
@@vacuumlover1 I said that they were able to play it, not that they had one. Idk my school had them. And most college and professional players will play on a low c bass clarinet.
@@tymiller176 most high schools in America can’t afford, or will not purchase low c basses. A lot of high schools will go for the Leblanc L7168, or selmer 1430lp. I was lucky enough to start out on an allora low C my highschool career in 2009 after playing on a selmer 1430lp in middle school.
Thanks for the added info - could you clarify what the four octave range would be? I actually ran the range we used on this past a pro bass clarinettist and they said this was reasonable as a "playable range" - that's of course not to say it couldn't be larger, but that this was a good guideline for composers! But happy to hear your take on it, thanks :)
@@clairewritesmusic There isn't "much" reason to use a bass clarinet's highest register unless one is composing specifically for bass clarinet. It's not common to use our Bb3 -Bb4 range outside of clarinet or wind ensemble specific pieces. I was only stating that our range *can* be 4 octaves without much effort. But almost all pieces will be in that 3 octave range. And most will be in our bottom two octaves.
@@sakonhon I’m not trying to make any point, and there is no cliché for saxophones. Saxophones are in less than 5% of orchestral music, this is a channel making videos about virtual instruments, and this video focuses on the standard woodwind section. Why would anyone think the saxophone would be included? I’m not desperate to do anything - I made this video, and I’m the host of most of the other videos on this channel. All we’re doing is providing a resource on this subject. I’m sorry that a bit of humour has touched a nerve.
@alexlamymusic Alfred Reed used it somewhat often, in say Armenian Dances or Russian Christmas Music. I have also seen many Japanese works featuring it, such as Daisuke Shimizu's Sea of Wisdom or Itaru Sakai's Seventh Night of July.
@@alexlamymusic older works and arrangements seem more likely to include it. Off the top of my head, Vaughan Williams’ Folk Song Suite, the original Boosey & Hawkes transcriptions of Mars and Jupiter, Paynter’s arrangement of Little Suite for Brass.
I love the graphics you used for this! Very well explained and deep dive video 👏
been finding you all over small channels recently, taking the oportunity to tell you i adore your work and your channel
Hi luke!!!
Yooo Luke appeared here
Mr Pickman 😏
How are there only 4 replies on this
As a bassoonist that started with a G Bassoon i have to say that G and F bassoons exist and they are so tiny I love them
Would that be a tenoroon? 😮
@@clairewritesmusic It is actually although most non english countries it's called a fagotinno those can be an octave higher, g or f. we also have a normal basson then there's the semi-contrabassoon, the bassoon in g/f but then an octave lower, the contrabassoon, en then we have a crazy guy working on a believe it or not, a subcontrabassoon. So only the bassoon and contrbassoon may be used but the family is bigger then we may think. the tenoroon is in actuality a real intstrument with real repertoire and real historical pieces...
Loved this video! Maybe consider including the saxophone family in another video? I know, a late addition to the orchestral repertoire, but they are used in some pretty famous pieces. 😀
I would considering destroying a saxophone family in another video 😜
Nah, I’m kidding. Not kidding about not liking them… but they’re still worth learning about 😅
@@alexlamymusic what instrument do you play that you hate the saxophone so much 👀
@@vacuumlover1 I honestly don't know why 🤣 I'm a bit afraid thinking about it too much will bring up some horrible memory, so I'll carry on avoiding them!
What about the sarrusaphone?
I've played sax for 3 years and only learnt this recently but although made of brass, the saxophone is part of the woodwind family
I love the sound of the woodwind section as an ensemble "instrument". It has a wider range of tonal colors than the other instrument classes and seems to be used for more nuanced emotions than the strings or brass. The range of tonal color also allows woodwinds to converse among themselves, trading melodies between the different instruments.
Absolutely agree - the different instrument combinations in the woodwinds give you another huge range of colours to play with 🤗
as a composer I was only using 50% of the ranges just to be safe, I can now see I can be less careful now. Thank you so much.
You'll hopefully like the follow up to this episode that was released this week then! :) It focusses more on arranging for the winds.
please please please, when writing for bassoon, don't be afraid to use the high register. depending on your ensemble the high register might be the best to use on a bassoon. you can go all the wat up to c3 if you want, I think that's on the really high register, and we can easily play 4 octaves...
@@ansmaertens105 I hope you meant c4, cause c3 is definitely comfort range for the bassoon...
@@jackaguirre8576 Way more than comfortable. Most bassoonists can comfortably go up to an E4 sometimes F4
Love these episodes with Claire , woodwinds are so inspiring !
We have more on the way for you!
@@alexlamymusic Cool ! Maybe Mr Harvey playing some crazy flutter multiphonics on the contrabass clarinet, let's hope...
@@JulienTabaraniComposer in a very roundabout way, you’re actually not far off the mark!
As a strings player, I tent to struggle more with the wind instruments when composing. Recently, I started learning to play the bassoon (my favourite!) to get more familiar with the fingering issues and breath management within my pieces. It also always helps me to watch some videos on the topic - like right now - before diving into writing the winds. Thank you for making excelent educational content, I'm subscribing!
As a bassoonist, I have used the same process to learn more about writing for strings. I have to say that my attempts at learning the cello have not been as productive. 😅
Dont worry about breathing or fingerings, good woodwind players will figure it out and sound good
Ultimate respect for anyone who takes up the bassoon 🙌🙌 and @ianwheeler5756 I agree to an extent, but it's still frustrating turning up at a session and seeing woodwind parts that are written as though we don't have to breathe! A lot of chat about needing oxygen tanks tends to follow...
Saxophones? We're latecomers, but still there are some orchestral scores written for us.
You’ll have to ask Claire about that. I take great steps to avoid them 😅
@@alexlamymusicpictures at an exhibition??? ravels bolero??
Honestly, I avoid Bolero too 😂
I’ve always thought it was quintessential Ravel: one instrument at a time and twice as long as it needs to be 😜
@alexlamymusic it seems you're all over the comment section with saxophone hate, it's kind of embarrassing considering it's a beautiful instrument.
@@3dmartini533 you said it 😬
I didn’t lol.. he also won’t say what instrument he plays
Very useful information. I finally now understand why certain instruments are transcribed. The woodwinds add wonderful tonal complexity to the orchestral sound. I love the way Stravinksy uses them in Rite of Spring.
I Love the Sound of the Bassoon
Thanks Claire, great videos , hope to see you again in another episode !
Thanks so much! 😊
Great explanation! I just want to add that some bass clarinets, notably student models, only go down to a concert Db instead of the Bb below it. If you're writing for non-professional players, assume a low Db.
I’ve actually never heard of a Db Bass Clarinet, only the Eb Alto, so this is good info!
@@alexlamymusic To be clear, it's still a Bb instrument (playing a written C sounds as Bb), it's just missing those few lowest notes.
This is also news to me, thanks for that!
Actually, That is a Db concert. The player's lower note is a Eb. Unless, they have one of the newer instruments that add the D, Db, and C (in pitch of Bb) so the instrument matches the Bassoon's and Cellos lowest notes.
I play the b flat clarinet, but also used to play the contra-alto clarinet, where I had to sit on stacked chairs to play it. It’s between the bass and contra bass clarinet.
Sweet! What sort of ensemble was that for, concert band?
Very well done! Bravo!
I must say my favorite orchestra woodwind is the “Oboe”. Loved that instrument ever since I heard it in Tchaikovsky's “Swan Lake”
Swan Lake is a stunning oboe part! So well written , it just sings across the orchestra
I loved playing that part! Such a beautiful piece
Recorder players watch this and laugh in pain 😅 These first hand kind of videos are very valuable.
Great explanation, great animation, great sound, you guys nailed it!
Este video es maravilloso, apenas estoy aprendiendo a tocar la flauta dulce.
Very clear concept. As a self taught musician this videos are super helpful. Thank you very much ❤
I really enjoyed this and the graphs used as well. I also enjoyed learning more on the obeo family since I haven't heard of a couple of them before and for got that nor everyone calls the English Horn the English horn. But as someone who played contrabass and contraAlto clarinets in college and Bass Clarinet is more of my main instrument, I do wish that they would be included in full orchestras more often than they are. But understand why they're not included as often
This was great quite frankly.
Love how this lady is on point about everything. Graphics are amazing
🙏😁
This is the best explanation of the overtone series I've seen. Great video!
Wonderful tour of the woodwinds!
There's something that puzzles me, though. And now that this is the second place I've seen this apparent discrepancy, I gather that there must be conflicting conventions involved.
Namely, the numbering of the octaves for musical notes. I'm used to having Middle C called C₄ and the standard 88-key piano run from A₀ to C₈.
This is also kind of nice in that the famous Bösendorfer Imperial Grand, with 97 keys comprising 8 complete octaves, goes from C₀ to C₈.
But here, and I believe I saw this in one of David Bennett's videos, Middle C is called C₃ and all the other notes are one unit lower as well.
Are there different octave numberings in the US and UK? It seems to me that to avoid confusion, this is something that really ought to be standardized worldwide.
Fred
Hi Fred, the convention we use is based on standard MIDI. By default, most programs use the Yamaha numbering for standard midi, which has Middle C as C3 (note number 60). So in a DAW or in the majority of samplers, that Bosendorfer would be C-1 to C7. The scientific system is the one we're all used to when looking at a score, and is an octave above.
It's genuinely a bit annoying, but as the channel is making videos focussed around using virtual instruments we went with the MIDI numbering that people will usually see when programming parts in. A lot of people won't out there won't be instrumentalists or even read music, so these resources are aimed at anyone learning this for the first time, and it's easier to make it clear in the few 'range and register' videos we make by mentioning "MIDI C3, MIDI D4" etc. rather than to use the scientific system and have to address the note numbering issue in every other video.
@@alexlamymusic I see. Thanks for the clarification.
So it sounds like MIDI (which is surely much more recent than the "scientific" one?) invented their own numbering system, not caring that it conflicts with the previously established system?
And now, to avoid confusion, everyone has to remember to specify which system is being used to name a musical note. Thanks, MIDI!
IMHO, any system that needs negative subscripts for the lowest few notes on a standard piano, is a stupid choice.
Addendum: I definitely don't mean to say that I think your choice is stupid, but that MIDI/Yamaha's was.
You made a perfectly logical choice based on what you're given to work with, which follows from all the reasons you give.
Just wanted to clarify that.
@@ffggddss No worries, I understand! I'm not sure what lead to the decision but I'm assuming there was something logical, as initially around the creation of MIDI Yamaha used C3 for note 60, and Roland used C4. MIDI is based on a system of 128 bits (0-127), so there are 128 available note numbers, and either system would make use of minus numbers, C-2 for Yamaha (going up to G8), C-1 for Roland (going up to G9). Weirdly the minus numbers are kind of useful and logical for programming keyswitches that change articulations. You can still use the Roland system in a DAW, but it's not the default, so people don't really use it.
Personally, I don't think it's something that comes up ever, until we make a video like this! The only other situation is where somebody might be talking to a player about a note (from their MIDI), but there's always relative reference on the player's score, (e.g. D on the staff, D below the staff, above and below middle C etc.). It's interesting seeing from this video and the other similar ones on the channel is that it's something that anyone who deals with MIDI on a regular basis doesn't bat an eye at. But musicians, for whom MIDI isn't really relevant, seem to have a harder time accepting that there are two ways of doing things co-existing. That's also not a criticism in any way either, it's also natural that learning about MIDI after always dealing with the scientific system would just be kind of annoying! 😅
I appreciate the initiative for explaining this nicely
As self taught composer, I see this video very useful
Thank you
Amazing video. I’ve always liked the oboe and the bassoon.
Me too, love those reedy sounds!
You explained that beautifully. Really enjoyed watching this video so thank you. 😊
What an excellent summary! She left off the contra-alto clarinet and the rare C soprano clarinet but I forgive her :). Also, some of us double in pit orchestras between different families and with large instruments, as she mentions, it can be difficult to make fast changes. I recently played Sondheim’s “Company” where my reed book called for Bb clarinet, bass clarinet, baritone sax, and bassoon. I took up fair amount of room in the pit. Finally, it is true that if you can play one clarinet or saxophone, you can play them all with no real fingering changes, just spacing and relative hand placement but bassoons and contrabassoons are quite different from each other. The notes from open F in the staff downward are similar but the keys are a different shape. F# to Ab on the top line start to diverge from each other and the notes from A up are very different between a bassoon and contrabassoon. Also, contrabassoons do not have a whisper key like a bassoon does so when I first learned my contra, I was constantly mashing the C# key and making my contra sound like some poor animal in distress.
Hello Claire, Thanks for these very usefull details. I Hope to see you back to this channel along with Alex ...
Me too! 🥳
🤞🤞🤞
The cor anglais is a transposing instrument, pitched in F. The alto flute is also a transposing instrument, pitched in G.
I've always known Middle C to be called C4, not C3. Why do you call it C3? I am a composer as well and when you mentioned the upper note of the piccolo as being C7, I was confused because I know it to be C8. That's when I discovered that you are naming them different from the standard names. American Standard Pitch Notation (ASPN) and International Pitch Notation (IPN) both call Middle C C4. With your notation, then the Contrabassoon's lowest sounding note would be in the -1 octave.
The numbering system we use is the one for MIDI. We usually say "MIDI C3" (which is middle C in MIDI). It's a pain, honestly... thinking in both systems is annoying. But the way instruments are programmed, and DAWs work uses the MIDI format for numbering pitches, and there are no resources out there for this, so we committed to making some!
I was confused by that too. Apparently DAWs can usually be customised to show middle C as either C4 or C3. The MIDI standard doesn't actually specify which C it is, just that it's a C, and two systems for interpreting note values into pitches were developed. Also I found this: th-cam.com/video/m5uTOU6Hojg/w-d-xo.html
@@JScaranoMusic True, initially Yamaha and Roland couldn't agree on it, and we're here talking about it 40 years later! But the default setting is to display C3, and so if we change it then we also have to specify that to anyone who is more familiar with a DAW than a score. One way or the other, half of the audience complain!
@@alexlamymusic the default in what? Every piece of music software I've used, right back to Finale and Cubase and MusicWorks in the '90s, have used used C4 as middle C by default. Also the MIDI standard _doesn't_ specify. It just says note 60 is a C, but which octave that C is in is up to how the MIDI data is interpreted by whatever program is rendering that MIDI data into sound.
I don't think "half" is anywhere near accurate. I'd be very surprised if less than 90% of your audience agreed on middle C = C4.
Teaching that there are two systems and how they came about is actually really interesting, and it's fine to use C3 as middle C if you clarify, which you did, but it's inaccurate to say C3 = middle C by default, unless you're referencing a specific piece of software where that happens to be the default.
@@JScaranoMusic it’s the default in Logic and Cubase, Kontakt, SINE Player etc. I can’t recall a time seeing the scientific numbering system in the last 20 years other than in Vienna Symphonic Library instruments and notation software. Default means you have to change it from ‘Middle C Displays as C3’.
I think I mentioned in another comment, if I put C3 in a file name and auto-map it in a sampler, it will go to midi note 60.
This video is absolutetly amazing!
This is really great.
I'm not a Woodwind player. However, I love the tone. Curiosity question; when you displayed the range relitive to the piano, around the C3 area you have the words middle C. I was under the impression that the middle C, was C4. Can you explain please.
I've been working on a story about someone who plays bassoon...and although i have musical training and experience, it isn't wirh THAT instrument. I'm glad I found this video...there are certain things I wasn't able to research otherwise. And I'll make some alterations to the story based on what I've learned here. Thanks!
This is super cool!
That's awesome! Have you dug into the reed-making side of things at all?! That's something I've always found fascinating about pro double reed players - the job is half being great at your instrument, half arts&crafts 😂
Hello.
Thanks for the great lesson.
It's a pleasure to meet you.
I hope you will please us with your knowledge in the future.
Regards, Yaroslav.
The alto sax is not in the woodwind section, but the hecklephone is?
apparently classical music is everything written before 1840
Did somebody post this video in a saxophone forum? 😅
😂 heckelphone got a mention as it's an auxiliary of the oboe family, whereas saxophones are kind of their own thing - but I don't think it would necessarily be accurate for a "basics of the ww section" video to say there were 5 woodwind families, one of which is saxophone. It definitely deserves an honourable mention but it's still reasonably rare in classical rep, whereas the other 4 families are almost always represented! Still it's good to know the saxophone community is thriving 🎷💪😂
@@clairewritesmusic It's reasonably rare in classical ORCHESTRA rep but it's essential in wind band music. Imagine Lincolnshire Posy with no saxophones.
@@facemashif we make a wind band video then we’ll be sure to include it 🤓
Wouldn’t hold your breath for that one though!
Thank you so much for making these great, well-taught instructional videos!
🙂🙏
I hope that articulations specific to woodwinds (and eventually brass) will be tackled in a future video ! Otherwise, a great video, as always !
I played Bb clarinet and EbAlto clarinet in concert wind band for years. I'd place the chalumeau register split higher at Bb4-D5, there's a major fingering break that has to be navigated there.
The reason for Bb and A is the Bb-clarinet fingerings favors the flat side of the Circle of Fifths, and the A-clarinet favors the sharp side of the Circle. Bb and A are only a semitone apart, but nearly on opposite sides of the Circle of Fifths. Playing in Amaj on a Bb-clarinet can be very challenging. With an Eb-Alto near impossible.
MORE CLAIRE, PLEASE
She is a wonder presenter! I second your statement!
🙈 thanks folks! 😁
The Bassoon family is actually pretty big, there G and F tenoroons and the Contraforte which is an amazing instrument with about four octaves of range.
So informative! Thanks you!
😊🙏
Great stuff. Best simple explanation of transposing instruments. Try some Jethro Tull on the flute. Me being from Belfast, I am sick of hearing Piccolos! de de DE DE DE DE Deeee de DEEE lol
As a concert band player, I see alto clarinet most of the time and never see the A clarinet or the basset horn. The contra bassoon is rarely seen too
Interesting, I didn't know alto clari was so common in concert band!
The A clarinet is an orchestral instrument. The basset horn is very rarely seen or heard. Contrabassoon is found more often in orchestras than bands.
@jpsned I am aware, but they still aren't too common. I think the contra bassoon is the most common of those.
@@Eniral441 I would agree with you. I think you'll find A clarinet most commonly in opera orchestras as opposed to standard orchestras.
Hello. What app o where do you edit the images of keyboard and scores? You have very clear images👍
Our graphics are all custom made by Michael Logar, who does great work on every episode!
@@alexlamymusicOK. Thank you!
Love the Chaminade throughout the video 👌
This was very helpful to me. You're a good teacher. It's the first time I think transposition may have clicked for me. Please tell me if I've grasped it: if I add a composer want, say, the b-flat clarinet, to play a D note, I'd write it as E... is that correct? If I got the notes wrong, am I at least correct that the point here is that the composer writes for such an instrument knowing that what they'll actually get is however many semitones away from what they've written? Thanks, I come from a rock guitar background, self taught, no theory under my belt, but I've become interested in writing orchestral stuff, so I've been devouring videos like this!
If I as* a composer...
Much useful for music lovers or programmers. Thanks a lot.
🙌🙏
4:06 so glad you feature the forgotten sibling
Great video!! In transposing instruments, say you see middle C but you hear Bd when played. Does this mess with your ear training? As surely your brain comes to associate the sound Bd with the written note C? I can't get my head around it, and it puts me off learning a transposing instrument, like clarinet. Could you clarify? Thanks!👍
Yeah, I think if you have relative pitch it's not such a problem, but if you have perfect pitch it can be confusing! I've been playing a lot of alto flute lately (which is in G), and that definitely messes with my brain a bit! But wouldn't let it put you off learning a transposing instrument, it's just a little extra work out for your brain 💪💪
@clairewritesmusic thanks for the reply. I see I put the Bb the wrong way around Bd! As a dyslexic I do things like that all the time. Maybe because I'm dyslexic the transposing thing confuses me more than average? The fact that playing a G instrument messed with your brain worried me a bit?? I don't have perfect pitch. I've played piano now for a few years or so. I thought being dyslexic it could be a real problem, using left and right hands and reading two clefs at the same time, but it's been surprisingly okay. Also tried violin for a few years, but stopped playing just before Lockdown, and keep going on piano teaching myself. I'd like to play another instrument beside piano. I was thinking of clarinet, but it being transposing does put me off. I might just give it ago, I like the sound, that's important. Thanks for your video I learnt a lot and then watched the one on Brass and then strings!👍🎵
@@sandrafrancis3631 you should absolutely give the clarinet a go, it's a gorgeous instrument & it's got the best of all worlds - soft & mellow when it wants to be, or bold & razzy! I honestly don't think the transposing thing will be an issue at all - and when I say it messed with my brain on alto flute, I just mean that I had to put in a little extra effort as I have perfect pitch, so the pitch I'm expecting isn't the pitch that comes out. But definitely don't let it put you off!
@clairewritesmusic thanks! Perfect pitch 👌! I use to think that was a gift! Now I know more about music,
I'm not so sure!? As I'm sure you know. 👍
amazing information thanks a lot 💮
And here (hear?) I thought that clarinet, oboe, & bassoon were related like violin, viola, & cello.
Well done.
As a clarinetist
*I demand more time from composers to put down a Bb clarinet and grab a bass clarinet WITH ONLY A MEASURE REST IN 4/4*
We have to adjust a floor peg before we can start playing. The floor peg cannot be extended when the instrument is resting in a stand. The bass clarinet will twist and maybe fall if the peg isn’t fully retracted.
Dutifully noted (not)
😂😂 justice for bass clarinettists 🙌 can't imagine it's much fun having 4 beats to swap instrument & start playing on a dry reed either !
It was really helpful, thank you so much for this video!)
😁🙏
Thank you from the USA.
Never played any of these instruments (I’m a lifelong alto, tenor, and soprano player) and still found this very enjoyable.
🙏🙌 I've always wanted to have a go at the tenor sax! Such a sultry sound, I love it 😎
justice for the contra atlo (Eb) clarinet! I played it recently in a clarinet choir :(
I would strongly recommend against doubling a bassoon. They are most likely to get expensively damaged and tend to need to be warmed up to play outside the easiest octave and a half. There are extensions for a normal bassoon to play more easily in the contra's normal range. There are also rarer relatives in the tenoroon and an instrument called a contra forte. The tenoroon is an octave higher than the bassoon and will play above middle C much more easily. The contraforte has a smoother sound than a normal contrabassoon. If you do double them in person, the player is going to ideally have an instrument stand, something to keep the reeds optimally soaked, and have warmed up the off hand instrument before the session. A cold swap would otherwise take at least a minute.
I’d generally agree with that advice, but the thing to do would be to ask the orchestra or the player you’re writing for. If you’re doing something where there isn’t another option, and maybe one piece or movement is on a bassoon and another on contrabassoon, then I don’t see the problem.
As far as recording goes, the bassoonists will probably be asking to double 😉 💷
There are very few practical problems with it in a recording session beyond the extra cost. You can stop and drop in for instrument changes, or do them at other parts of a session, or as overdubs, or any way you like.
Haha yes very true about session players being more than happy to double 🤑 and it does happen in orchestra rep (currently touring the Rite of Spring in which the 4th bassoon doubles contra!) but you're absolutely right that it's not as easy as doubling flute/picc for example, and it's more common for contra to be left to a specialist player. I'd never heard of the contra forte, I'll have to look that up! 😊
Excellent tutorial.
🙏🙏
Your outfit is phenomenal and stylish
Even though I do not play saxophone, I do believe they should be included in the woodwind family when it comes to orchestration.
Without the saxophone family, we wouldn’t of had the iconic solo in “The Old Castle” which is a part of pictures at an exhibition. Or the iconic solos in Ravels Bolero.
Also, I want to start a movement called “stop calling my bass clarinet a saxophone”
As a sax player, I would really like to know what kind of saxophone you play
@@Hydro1278 bass clarinet 😒
No, but for real. I don’t play saxophone, but I think it’s fair to include them.
@@Hydro1278 also, fun fact for those who confuse my instrument with a saxophone:
The first modern bass clarinet was invented by Adolph sax in 1838. The saxophone followed in the late 1840s.
Sue Francher would agree with you - There's still a lot of snobbery involved unfortunately.
This is such a good resource, but the ranges
became confusing when middle C is usually named C4 instead of C3. I had not realized there is some controversy over this.
Aren't bassoons part of the oboe family? (double reed)
Excellent way to insult all bassoonists and oboists in one go 😅
Oboes & bassoons are both part of the double reed family, but bassoons aren't in the oboe family or vice versa. If you see what I mean!
A bassoonist here, if I had a dollar for every time someone has thought it is an oboe or asked me how long I've played the oboe... And then there are the people who ask me "what is that thing?"
Greetings from Ukraine! Thanks for such a nice explanatory video and charming vibe )
🙏🙏
great video, but why wasnt the saxophone included?
IIRC the Bass Clarinet and Bb Clarinet are the most common. I’ve played the latter and seen the former as early as my middle school band class. It also helps that the Bb Clarinet is pitched the same as the Tenor Saxophone, so I was actually able to jump between the 2
But as to some of my own thoughts, I’ve always loved the tenor saxophone because I can make it sound like a boat horn with some of its lowest notes 😂
I play all the woodwinds: clarinets, oboe, cor anglais, flute, piccolo, bassoon and saxophones. I will point out that in your discussion of the clarinet family, you left out the contralto clarinet--half way between the bass clarinet and the contrabass clarinet. Also, when you mentioned the Bb and A clarinets, you referred to them as "twins." I've played them both in orchestras and they are completely different instruments. Lastly, you said that the altissimo of the clarinet is similar to the saxophone in tone quality. This is completely untrue--the clarinet altissimo is quite loud, piercing and even screechy. The saxophone's tone quality is warm and rounded. 🙂
The octave numbering here is wrong, middle C is C4 in standard scientific pitch notation.
We use MIDI note numbers. Middle C is C3 in standard MIDI
Middle C is MIDI Note Number 60.
This can be C3 or C4, or even C2 or C5. There is no defined standard or convention. The MIDI standard only says that the note number 60 is a C, it does not say of which octave.
C4 should have been used for middle c here.
@@Kind-Regards_Musicannoyingly there is a convention that 60 is middle C. If I build an instrument in Kontakt and label a sample ‘C3’, it will map to 60. When I press middle C down, in the piano roll of any DAW, and even in the main display at the top of Logic, you’ll see the note come up as C3.
Yeah have to second Alex here, I think the majority of people watching these videos will be composing in a DAW so it made sense to correspond with that!
@@alexlamymusicthis video is about acoustic instruments, I don’t really see why anyone would believe a midi numbering convention should trump a system real musicians actually use. There are only two of these, scientific pitch notation (middle C=C4) and Helmholtz (C=C2, c=C3, c’= middle C). I have a masters degree in music theory and composition, before anyone quips I don’t know what I’m talking about.
Are there pieces written for only woodwind section, that includes all of the woodwinds. If so, then can you give us links. If not then why not.
You might like the follow up video to this 😊
I’d no one talking about how the instruments were tuned down a octave the lowest note on the contrabassoon was a bb-1 when it’s supposed to be bb0
The five instruments in a woodwind quintet are??
Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, Bassoon and French Horn. But French Horn is actually a member of the brass family, it just makes a special guest appearance for wind quintets!
We go into the wind quintet at the end of the follow up video to this, if you’re interested :)
@@alexlamymusic I just saw that, and at the beginning of the video too.
They're called "wind quintets"as opposed to "woodwind quintets" because of the horn.
I’m going to call foul on the idea that "unlike brass", the woodwind section has multiple families. Even if we set aside historical context, there are at least four ways to categorize brass instruments based on how pitch changes are achieved. The issue is that most modern orchestras tend to ignore two of these categories and only include one type of slide instrument. Brass families can also differ based on their taper and whether they’re whole or half-tubed.
Also, if we look at how instruments function and produce sound on a physical level (and ignore their history), oboes and bassoons would technically belong to the same family (Hornbostel-Sachs 422.111.2 - double reed, single-aerophone, with regular bore and fingerholes). In contrast, trumpet (423.231), tuba (323.232), and trombone (423.221) would still be considered separate families.
As a composer, graduating with a Master in Music for Film and Television, I still humble myself, and go back to videos like these.
Also, what I find a bit disheartening is that, on many scores, today, the woodwinds are almost non-existent. Many scores have low brass, drums, and lots of synth tracks.
I am a major fan of John Williams, as he is a master at writing for woodwinds. Sadly, his kind of orchestration is become more rare by the year.
I LOVE woodwinds, and will continue writing pieces that have them.
Really great to read this, it’s exactly why we wanted to make videos like this one, so that they’ll be useful resources for years to come :)
Don’t be disheartened though. Things go in and out vogue. Orchestral Woodwinds in film scores we’re even rarer 10 years ago! And I quite like that we get a lot of low-winds in use these days, Contrabass Clarinets and Contrabassoons, Bass Flutes and Alto flutes and so on. It’s not the same type of orchestral writing as John Williams, but as much of JW fan as I am (and I really am!) I don’t think other composers need to be writing symphonic scores these days. There’s a very big scope to what you can do with a film score, and calling upon a more traditional orchestral sound can be done with good intention rather than just being the ‘default’ palette of a film score.
Great video. Claire briefly touches on the flute's tendency to get drowned by other sounds in its lower register, but I wish that she'd gone into that for all the wind instruments, especially the very easily drowned cor anglais and bassoon.
Keep an eye out for future episodes 😉
Yeah woodwind instruments dont project well in their lower registers
Yes I believe Alex has got it covered in the most recent episode!
@@clairewritesmusic No, he hasn't. He very briefly glosses over orchestral balance with the flute, but his video is all about register quality, the advantages of the tone colors of each woodwind section, lyrical qualities, doubling with other sections of the orchestra, and woodwinds playing amongst themselves.
It's a great video, but dynamic balance with the other orchestral sections in particular is pretty much not discussed. Things like the ease with which bassoons and especially English horns and alto flutes are made inaudible, the tendency of a loud piccolo to pierce through even a fortissimo tutti, the effect of suddenly masking a wind line with the addition of a string or brass line in the same register, etc. are major qualities that I've found critically important aspects of orchestration, and I'd love to hear about other composers' experiences in this regard.
@@MiloDCwe briefly touch on this issue in the first video on the channel, but it’s more in context to getting a realistic balance when programming.
The truth is there’s a lot to cover, and we’re getting through the basics before doing more advanced topics. A more advanced general orchestration video might be the place to go through some of the things you’ve mentioned 👍🏻
I love the part where you talk about the saxophone
They sound better silent, so we left it that way 😅
@alexlamymusic Is your only experience with saxophones from highschool?
@@beesee8728 no, I was too much of a metal-head to notice anything except guitars. Why, are they somehow worse in high school? 😨
I actually used to play saxophone in my school orchestra ! 😅 but we had 1 violin and 3 drumkits so it may not have been representative of a pro orchestra 🤔
@@alexlamymusic most people get their bad impressions of the saxophone from highschool, where they can be quite bad. However people who are half decent at the saxophone add quite a bit to the ensembles they're in. Try looking up arno bornkomp to hear some good classical saxophone
A note on doubling: As a general rule, do not assume that someone proficient on the primary woodwind (flute, oboe. clarinet, bassoon) will also be proficient on the other members of that woodwind family (or that they even own those instruments). If you write parts for these other instruments and they involve important solos or are technically difficult, consider writing these as separate parts rather than asking someone to double. That said, most people proficient on these other instruments usually both own and are also proficient on the standard instrument of their family. So for example, you can usually trust that most English horn players own and are proficient on oboe and it is therefore OK to ask the English horn player to double oboe, but not necessarily OK to ask your 2nd oboist to play English horn. And please don't ask the bass clarinetist to double on Eb clarinet ever (I'm talking to you Mahler ).
Doh! You left out the most important of all woodwinds! The crumhorn! I have a crumhorn stop on my pipe organ. It's my best friend!
isnt there a tenerroon(bassoon family)
Yes, I've only known of them being used for kids who want to learn bassoon but aren't big enough to have a full size one! But I'm sure they're utilised in some rep, do you know of any?
Isn't there an E♭ flute between concert flute and piccolo?
Extremely unlikely to find that in an orchestra. Maybe in concert band?
@@alexlamymusic Nope, not in concert band either. Eb flutes may have been made at one time, but none are played today.
Where do the saxophone and sarrusaphone come in? Aren't the former cousins of the clarinet & the latter ofxthe oboes?
From the Sarrusophone wikipedia: 'The sarrusophone is rarely called for in orchestral music. However, around the turn of the 20th century, the contrabass sarrusophones in EE♭ and CC enjoyed a vogue, the latter as a substitute for the contrabassoon... These parts are now normally played on the contrabassoon, although there are early 20th century recordings of at least some of these pieces where sarrusophones can be heard.'
'Today, the sarrusophone is used in a handful of symphonic wind ensembles and as a novelty instrument on occasions.'
You've got me googling sarrusophone here ... 🫣
Had to triple Bb clarinet, glut, and bass clarinet for put orchestra on beauty and the beast, The hardest part was figuring out how to hold them
Excuse my ignorance but what is glut?!
I like it. I like the AI to play our synths. Robot fingers I want to see and feel fingers moving and compliant. ❤ Hands down!
5:47 any instrument ‘reunions’ Ive attended were closer to 13-1-13-0
😂 yes that reminds me of my school orchestra - about 13 flutes, 1 violin and a drumkit 👀
Now with the AI, one of Optimus could volunteer if you call in sick. Everybody has a robot or a portion or share. If you teach a robot you build the cloud.
Like this video!
Fun fact for English speakers--> the name of Basson in Swedish is Fagott 😆
Cheers from Sweden👋
Same in Germany
How about Italian? Fagotti
@@MrStoshb Yeah we probably got it from Italian 😀 Wonder if bassoon is French?
The "throat notes" of the clarinet (written F# to B♭) are actually part of the chalumeau. The clarino register starts with the first "overblown" note: B (written). And the high register ("altissimo") starts with written C#! 😁
Syrinx!!!!!...so lovely
Love that piece ! 😊
I once played a concert where I had to switch between clarinet, alto clarinet, and soprano saxophone.
You have my condolences. (I'm a clarinetist/saxophonist, so I feel your pain.)
Oof that's a lot of swapping ! What was the repertoire ?! Surely not all in one piece?
@@clairewritesmusic The only piece I used the soprano sax on was _Perthshire Majesty_ by Samuel Hazo. The biggest challenge was carrying all my stuff onto and off of the stage.
@@pukalo 😂 yeah that sounds like 3 trips worth of kit to me!
@@pukalo And the second biggest challenge is playing in tune when you pick up a cold horn. Presumably you had time to at least blow some warm air through them before you had to play.
Wait isnt the lowest note on flute c4 or am i mistaken?
Although not part of current Orchesters, in the baroque and Renaissance music recorders were often used, and it seems modern composers use it again
As a recorder player, a non-transposing woodwind, I have to know both F and C fingerings.
The recorder family is definitely under appreciated :)
Yes I've actually never got why recorder isn't a transposing instrument! When I've occasionally had to double on treble recorder in West end shows, the part is actually written as a transposing instrument in the flute pad, so that the fingers correspond to flute fingerings ! 🤯
Great vid just wanted to say bassoons can only go down to a
Bb1 not a Bb0, and contrabassoons can only go down to a Bb0 not a Bb-1
The numbering here is using the standard MIDI system of Middle C = C3. So we do get -1's for the lowest registers. It's frustrating for musicians, but it's better to use this system as the focus of the channel is programming virtual orchestrations with sampled instruments, and that's what you're going to see in a DAW as default.
@@alexlamymusicthank
What happened to the Saxaphones?
They couldn't make it to the reunion this time, maybe next year !
@@clairewritesmusic 😆 Poor Saxaphones.🎷
Although saxophones sometimes appear in orchestral parts, they're not considered to be part of the traditional orchestral woodwind section.
@@jpsned That doesn't change the fact that a Saxaphone is a woodwind instrument.
@@MrDagonFire No, it doesn't. The main reason saxophone is not part of the traditional orchestral woodwind section is that it was invented about 1841, after most of the great classical composers had come and gone.
Solo Alto Sax in Shostakovich Jazz Suite No. 2
We all hope to see you soon, Claire.
👀 we shall see!
@@clairewritesmusic Actualy I've subscibed to you channel
As a person that studied Bass Clarinet, our "comfortable range" is actually 4 octaves. Even a high schooler should be able to play their C Major scale in four octaves. Also, sad that we didn't see the other members of the clarinet family. There are definitely clarinets lower than the contrabass. But overall, nicely done video.
4 octaves only if they have a low C extension which most high schoolers don’t have
@@vacuumlover1 I said that they were able to play it, not that they had one. Idk my school had them. And most college and professional players will play on a low c bass clarinet.
@@tymiller176 most high schools in America can’t afford, or will not purchase low c basses.
A lot of high schools will go for the Leblanc L7168, or selmer 1430lp. I was lucky enough to start out on an allora low C my highschool career in 2009 after playing on a selmer 1430lp in middle school.
Thanks for the added info - could you clarify what the four octave range would be? I actually ran the range we used on this past a pro bass clarinettist and they said this was reasonable as a "playable range" - that's of course not to say it couldn't be larger, but that this was a good guideline for composers! But happy to hear your take on it, thanks :)
@@clairewritesmusic There isn't "much" reason to use a bass clarinet's highest register unless one is composing specifically for bass clarinet. It's not common to use our Bb3 -Bb4 range outside of clarinet or wind ensemble specific pieces. I was only stating that our range *can* be 4 octaves without much effort. But almost all pieces will be in that 3 octave range. And most will be in our bottom two octaves.
loved this....but you didn't cover the saxophone...???
We'll cover it in a percussion episode 😜
@@alexlamymusic Why are you obsessed? You're not funny.
@@sakonhon who hurts Sax players to make them like this? 😅
Have a quick glance at other videos on the channel 👍🏻
@@alexlamymusicLike what? Sick of tired clichés? You also seem desperate to get some point across. But I’m afraid it’s totally lost.
@@sakonhon I’m not trying to make any point, and there is no cliché for saxophones.
Saxophones are in less than 5% of orchestral music, this is a channel making videos about virtual instruments, and this video focuses on the standard woodwind section.
Why would anyone think the saxophone would be included?
I’m not desperate to do anything - I made this video, and I’m the host of most of the other videos on this channel. All we’re doing is providing a resource on this subject.
I’m sorry that a bit of humour has touched a nerve.
Strong family reunion woodwinds.
Alto clarinet appears with some regularity in the concert band repertoire.
Any good examples you can point us towards?
@alexlamymusic Alfred Reed used it somewhat often, in say Armenian Dances or Russian Christmas Music. I have also seen many Japanese works featuring it, such as Daisuke Shimizu's Sea of Wisdom or Itaru Sakai's Seventh Night of July.
@@nou6990 Nice, thank you, I'll look these up!
@@alexlamymusic older works and arrangements seem more likely to include it. Off the top of my head, Vaughan Williams’ Folk Song Suite, the original Boosey & Hawkes transcriptions of Mars and Jupiter, Paynter’s arrangement of Little Suite for Brass.
@@nou6990 yes, Japanese composers aren’t so shy about using alto flutes either!
I’m confused is middle C C3 or C4?
MIDI C3 is the basis we're using for middle C. Scientific notation on a staff would be C4. It's confusing, we know!