When your games comes out with a 1.5 Version ? Why Can't they just get it right the first time?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2024
- Join this channel to get access to perks:
/ @seahawk8601
Leave us a Tip! Thru paypal at schnicklefritz64@yahoo.com
Buy great games: bit.ly/miniatur...
BGG guild: boardgamegeek....
Instagram: / robstabletopworld
Twitter: / seahawk860 .
Twitch: / robstabletopworld
Some Theme Music by Retro Shed. Used by permission.
You speak the truth Rob. These companies worry about rushing out the product for the money rather than letting it take shape and being the best it can be.
Thank you!
110% agree! I have stopped backing kick starters because of these types of issues.
It’s not just kickstarter
Many crowd funded projects are concepts with minis where the rules are nowhere near complete and it is a dice roll whether they take the effort to release a finished product. This is why I rarely buy any crowd funded games until after I hear how the final product comes out. I save money buy not buying crapola even if I have to spend a little more on the second hand market on good games.
Great point
Times like these, you are most happy to have a printer at home as well as have talent in Photoshop and card printing.
lol true
Kickstarter Syndrome. Why spend on testing and quality assurance when there's an insatiable audience that will blindly buy a new product out of the Fear of Missing Out?
It's the consumers' fault collectively. As long as you spend money with little regard for its value, you will get the same attitude in return from the producer.
Yet some people do it right ….sorry this is on the producer people put there trust into them only to have it broken
@seahawk8601 I can count on one hand the few small creators that have earned my respect and unending financial support. In general, crowdfunding is a bad gamble that a lot of people can't admit they're addicted to.
Outside of learning when to close your wallet, the only other option would be to regulate the market, at which point its original function, to be a platform for small creators to get financial support for their projects, would cease and it would become almost entirely pre-orders from established corporations.
Something tells me Kickstarter would be perfectly fine with that arrangement.
I think there needs to be a distinction made between GAMEPLAY playtesting and UI/UX (User Interface/UserExperience) testing. A lot of these games, most notably I would say Tanares Adventures and The Isofarian Guard did plenty of gameplay testing. Both those games are very tight game-balance wise and there really wasn't much wrong with the gameplay parts of these games.
But they probably did a ton of testing on Tabletop Simulator or with prototype components and probably hardly any done using the actual final production components. The Tanares complaints (and ISG) that people had were not gameplay complaints. Everyone loved the game play. It was how the books were organized, how people could learn the game, paper maps, hard to read cards etc. etc.
Then there is the whole other shoe about inadequate GAMEPLAY testing where I would lump Reichbusters, Tainted Grail, Stars of Ikarios, Middara (which I love but already has had a 1.1 and 1.2 versions) where it's more clear they didn't test the gameplay enough.
Anyway, it's a pet peeve of mine lately about great games with great gameplay that obviously no one sat at a table with the final production copy of the game and tested how the components work together.
Great point
So glad I didn't go all in on some of these games on KS - I had serious FOMO, which quickly went away when 6 months later the 1.2 or 1.5 versions were back on KS with no discount for previous backers. WHEW! Thanks for bringing this up, Rob!
You are welcome my friend
As someone who back many games by Mythic, all their early games ended up with 1.5 which is ultimately led to them going under. Early on they were good about eating the cost, but as well learned the hard way, they weren’t really eating the cost. They just ran campaigns for other games to pay for the mistakes! Important video to put out. Thank you Rob!!!
Your welcome my friend
It feels like the initial kickstarters are a paid beta now. I’m hesitant to back a lot until a reprint. I get if everyone does that there will not be a game but maybe that will hit these companies where it matters to get their acts together.
It seems boardgames are going down the same route as video games where you pay to test them.
And watered down as well
Depends on the degree of brokeness. If it's a few typos or whatever fine. If it needs a whole new rulebook then screw you.
But honestly i take very little risk with crowdfunding these days. My biggest was primal and i think i lucked out. Game is solid and the developers really seemed to care about the product.
I agree it is greAt
I 100% agree!
Thank you
The 2.0 release for X-Wing the Miniature game likely lead to the death of X-Wing. Likely one of the worst 2.0 release ever to happen. They made fans buy the “update” which was a mountain of revised cards including ship cards and standees for ships fans didn’t even own (since there was no way to know what ships fans specifically owned in their collection, they just included all of the ships in their paid updated). So you are left with a mountain of cardboard standees, ship cards, ship weapon cards, crew cards etc… that you use maybe half or 1/3 of
Insane
I noticed this as well. I tend to stay away from initial crowdfunding. The latest example - just skipped Agemonia 1.0 as they announced an update and a reprint. Immediate reprints are also very ennoying and make me stay away from initial crowdfunding campaigns.
Damn and I got 1.0
Oh man I’m right there with ya. Tainted Grail:FoA has a 2.0 with updated rules, cards and new journals, but it was on fricken kickstarter! You can get the rules pdf, but the updated components you’re SoL.
Now granted AR’s 1.0 rules aren’t horrific, and is completely playable in that form but it’s still annoying to not have these readily available to purchase on the publisher website for us “commoners” smh
So true
100% agree Rob. A frustrating aspect I find for this issue is when purchasing a game, either from an online retailer or through ebay, you can never be sure which version you're getting. That's because, for these 1.x revisions, the box art etc all looks the same, but the content has subtle but important differences. Often the sellers aren't even sure which version they own. It makes the market for these games, primary and secondary, a complete mess!
Dead on my friend
You are absolutely correct Rob. At the very least they should have an update pack available for previous backers at a minimum price.
At no price
If companies do not offer low cost upgrade kits , just walk away.
I do
As a backer of League of Dungeoneers 1.0 I feel the frustration. However, I do have some thoughts. In the past, games were also released with problems. It’s not an issue exclusively with new crowdfunded games. Games that were popular enough got 2nd editions typically 2 to 5 years after the 1st edition which attempted to solve these problems, but many just continued existing with the problems and were just house ruled by players. Now we have 1.5 versions coming out in a shorter span of time, and often there are upgrade packs sold separately for those with version 1. Which do you prefer? Really depends on the person. “Why couldn’t they get it right the first time?” Well, games are also a heck of a lot more complex nowadays (not to say complex games didn’t exist, but in general this seems to be the case) and some issues only come to light after 10,000+ players have had their hands on it as opposed to 10 playtesters. We are also dealing with a lot of indie and first-time designers who have limited resources compared to giants like FFG.
This my point you can for give a guy with a dream but companies that use these platforms as pre orders and do this over and over there are no excuses
When you are paying for the first wave of KS, you are paying to be a beta tester. Then you have to pay again to get the updates in the 2nd wave while those who waited pay less overall for a better version in the 2nd wave.
Sounds fair for a pre-order
I agree. There’s little excuse.
If that happens to something I have… I just look up the errata during gameplay or print it rather than buy it all over.
Also… who would want to buy everyone’s original after they get the updated version? Makes no sense.
Veery true
Spot on
Thank you
I agree with you Rob. Tanares Adventures was a particularly annoying one for me. I hadn't even played my 1.0 version, having only had it for a few weeks, when they announced the 'ultimate version' with a storage solution that worked (1.0 didn't allow for sleeved cards) and streamlined rules. It would have cost me around £100 to upgrade my new game. I decided not to bother.
I did choose to deluxify my copy of Oathsworn, but I didn't opt for the upgrade. I was nearly half way through the campaign when Shadowborne announced the changes. I hadn't noticed any issues, so I carried on playing regardless.
Picked up a copy of Middara, with the 1.1 rules. Then found out there was a 1.2! I am not bothering to upgrade. I am sure that playing the rules I have, will be sufficient for me to make a decision about the game?
Hhhmmm interesting point
That pissed me off so bad. Never spending a dollar on their games again.
I really think no game designer(s) should put anything on Kickstarter until the core rules have been play tested at least 200 times.
I agree
Dragori Games have taken notice of this problem, and have issued a guarantee that Odalin will not be reprinted or updated for 2 years. So, there's that I reckon.
So they say
After ultimate Tanares I’m going to wait for second printing with updated rules on most crowdfunding games. Great topic! Looking forward to the updated versions of this video! Ha!
Yes. This will be obsolete in hours
@@seahawk8601 it’s not a computer, there’s no reason for it.
To me it comes down to how they handle it and how they treat the original backers. Shadowborne Games, Oathsworn, did have an errata pack and update in their reprint. BUT the game did play fine with the original rule book and cards, they just added clarifications and or tweaks to make the game harder. That to me was acceptable because you did not need it, and they gave it at basically cost to those that wanted it. Other games truly let the original backers be the game testers and that is unacceptable. ICE comes to mind. Typically this is very evident during the campaign when you have NO rule book to review and or NO way to try the game on TTS or something similar. I steer clear of those games. It is also evident how they respond to feedback when they do post those things. I am moving farther away from any crowdfunding or buying new games. Let others play them and find the errors. I can wait for the prices to drop and if the game is great and does need fixes the next version is the one I can buy.
Well said my friend
There's a very simple answer stop supporting companies that use crowdfunding. Unfortunately, nobody has the backbone to do it. These companies have no incentive to put a good game on the market. Actually, it's just a scam, put a game on the market who cares how good it is, collect a ton of money and then make an updated version and guess what, collect a whole lot more money. And don't tell me that they can't afford it without crowdfunding that's BS crowdfunding a.k.a. Kickstarter was never meant for a pre-order system for a company.
It’s not just kickstarter
Totally agree 100%. I feel like play testing isn't given enough time before they even advertsise the game for sale. But isn't this like most products in this world these days where anything you buy is broken coming out of the box and they decide by the time you purchase it, the fix will be available because they want to start collecting the money? You shouldn't have to buy things and look for the fix after. Board game developers should be held accountable for shoving a fix out there they expect you to pay for. They sell us broken products and expect us to pay to fix it. And you're right, as much as I love Arena and Tanares Adventures, its total BS how they handled these games. I backed Odalin and they better not do this with that game or I'll be done with Dragori Games. League of Dungeoneers and I believe Dungeon Universalis both did this as well.
Dragori games will not answer my emails for the simplest of things so for me I’m already done
@@seahawk8601 Same. I have a broken mini from one of the hero packs and I sent a few emails to try and get it replaced. No answer. It wasn't until I complained about it on their FB page for Odalin Dungeons of Doom when someone was asking if they ever reply to support emails and I said "no they don't" did someone from Dragori get right on the horn and reply to us both. They simply didn't want the negative attention since they were trying to get backers for Odalin. But I'm starting to regret going all in on Odalin because I've been hearing horror stories on people's experiences regarding delivery of Ultimate Tanares Adventures. They better have learned from their mistakes. I may need my head examined for backing this one. I seriously think this will be my last time backing anyone Kickstarter or Gamefound going forward.
These games are coming out at machine gun speed, and they vomit tons of stuff on you for no reason. I stopped backing and, in fact, sold most of my games. I've never been happier.
I feel the same way
I'M LOOKING AT YOU, MR. PRESIDENT. GMT release the 2nd edition P500 like a week after the original game shipped
Thank you sir
In the end designing a game and sending it into the wild is a process discovered *afresh* by practically every designer and company - even for veterans of the hobby (GMT etc). I've come to accept that the faults of the process are what allow us to enjoy the unimaginable variety and abundance of games we have today - warts and all. As a result I accept a degree of "potential incompleteness" if I buy-in as an early adopter. This process can get loosey-goosey but rankles people most that need a definitive version of a game to be happy.
Fair
I'm ok with companies (eg, GMT) that do living rules that you can download. Most of the time they are just improving wording or explaining things better after FAQ or adding new things to the series rules because OPTIONAL expansions added new features. A game that comes out with a 1.5 version that changes the board, cards, counters after 1-2 years is NOT acceptable as a consumer. It's a new game. If you NEED that to make your old game playable then it's time to initiate Order 66 :)
My point exactly
Kickstarters can go bust. I would rather get something instead of nothing. Thats how i justify it too myself, it sucks sure. But running out of money and getting nothing is worse.
Whatever works for you my brother
Yeah it's getting to be too common in the industry now. Isofarian Guard as well. It's another reason I'm getting out of the Kickstarter business.
Justified for sure
There are several variables at play here. I'm much more forgiving of a small company producing one of their first games, and needing more errata or even update packs to fix missed errors. Something like league of dungeoneers or oathsworn, for example. I've got more grace for them.
I 100% agree
It's the pc gaming syndrome. Rush it out and we become play testers. If you back a game on kickstarter and they come out with 1.5 version, all that improved content should be given free to the original backers. They offer upgrade packs for some games, but you have to pay for it. Ridiculous. This has long been a pet peeve of mine, thanks for addressing it in this video. See you in the next one.
Thank you sir
I spit out my beer when I heard you state that these games are rushed. The bigger fact is that these games are often years late in their development and release and still filled with holes. The game is delayed by two years (with the most common excuse is for supposedly quality control) - the 1.5 comes and and takes another two years so effectively the game you paid for is really four years late. Crazy. It really is a total disrespect for the customers and the attitude is almost that they are doing you a favor. The entire 1.5 is a hook that almost makes prior backers back since otherwise the value of what they have is diminished. I will mimic what others have said. Best to just wait for the secondary market.
I never used kickstarter and never will
@@seahawk8601 Wise man indeed
Yeah they messed up X-Wing for me. Stopped playing at 1.0. Those “damn” transition packages to swap cards was confusing to me…not everyone…just me.
It was a mess for sure
Like others here have said, I think a lot of it is copying the video game industry. I think developer’s see they can do minimal testing and push it out, knowing full well that the people with FOMO will be the play testers. I understand some small mistakes and I can live with that. Equally egregious to me is everytime companies like FFG (and now GMT) are constantly pushing out “expansions” or additional volumes with minimal new content and often including things that should have been in the original.
It’s very true
The lack of blind play testing till all the issues are found is ridiculous. Also making original backers pay for the update pack is just ignorant and insulting.
I agree
How about they just give the original game purchasers an updated copy as a sign of support!
It would be nice
Absolutely.
Kickstarter and Gamefound is about funding ambition. First time game developers getting an opportunity to develop their passion projects. Many are learning as they go. We know what we are getting into. If you are concerned with more stable gameplay stick to the tried and true game developers. If you are adverse to risk, stay away from crowd funding. I would much rather play a fixed ambitious game at a 1.5, than a bland one that has no issues.
Please your post holds no weight a lot of these companies have made many games under this umbrella a lot of them use the platform as a pre order system so guy in his garage sure I can understand but it is companies with many employees and on top of that keep making the same mistake over and over
Tanares Ultimate Adventures? Worst documentation of any game. It makes the original Dungeon Crusade look concise. Dear gods, where does one start?
Crusade was a mess but this was a one man show that was done with passion not profit it really took a toll on Rodger and he gave his all
@@seahawk8601 And Rodger made good by releasing an update kit at a reasonable price. But Tanares is worse: A jumbled, incoherent mess, retched across two books. And it's 1.5.
I buy only retail versions now. But there are too many board games now. Shipping and logistics are becoming huge problem, and I think in few years a lot of stuff will be hard to get.
Companies who make unfinished and untested games, are like video game publishers . I just stop buying from them.
I like old FFG . Even through they did few times that. I am very careful about buying games now.
About you last video. It does not matter how big is your channel. You alway reason , and are ready to explain your side. I belive game crash is coming. And because other reviewers are not saying something bad about KS game is, because they are their income.
Very true my friend
This is really bad on the wargame spectrum, If you buy the 1st edition of the game you are basically beta testing the product for the proper 2nd printing.
I agree compass is famous for this
@@seahawk8601 1st name that entered my mind as well.