Messenger bird!!?? 🤣🤣😂 Crone would love to have a talk with you about her perspective Well, the review was a lot more positive than I feared! And much like the book itself I need to revisit it to catch all of your points, you went to town on this one. Minor thing about the one guy who made a derisive comment about a girl with a sword.. He was explicitly called a dumb abrasive brute, and definitively proven wrong - if I'm thinking about the right guy.
If I’m not mistaken, is that the same character that’s listed in the character index as being “an unfortunate bully” or something like that? 😆 Haha, I actually felt kinda bad calling Crone that, cuz I really liked her, but then I remembered she’s fictional and didn’t feel as guilty 🤣
@@ebnovels Lol, she is being used as a messenger bird, so it's fair. I think the assessment might ruffle some feathers, and make her master chuckle a bit 😁 And yeah, that's the guy 🤣 clearest example how sexism is dealt with in this world
It was the talking bird that caused me to put the book down and never pick it up again. That and the introduction from the author, that basically says you will either love this book or you are too stupid to understand it.
@@grier2593 its so hard to talk about these books with out spoiling anything but Crone isint simply a talking bird. the most common phrase on the sub reddit for this series when people ask questions is read on
the set gender role is very deliberate from steven and Ian when they made the world - the base idea is that magic not muscle is the ultimate power and in a world where everyone has access to magic the gender roles would evolve in a very different way than in our world. (they've both written and talked about it a lot) ... props for spotting it so early, most of us miss it for a long time as it's never rally talked about in the series. hint about the magic(clues in the transfer hairlock to a puppet scene) there are more than 1 system of magic in the world. you'll learn a lot more from kulp and the wican warlocks in deadhouse gates. looking forward to hearing about the arguments you'll have with your BF over felisins story in the next book. And do enjoy the chain of dogs - one of the most stunning story arcs ever written and where the series overall themes starts to come into play.
We’re excited about book two! I already started it actually :D I’m kinda upset with myself for not doing predictions, because I definitely called Paran’s sisters showing up 😆
The chain of dogs is awesome and deserves an entire season of a possible tv-adaptation of Malazan (oh boy who ever could pull that off has earned my respect)
@@noneofyourbusiness3288 Yeah the Chain of Dogs and the defense of Capustan are my two favorite arcs in the Malazan story... both so tragic and epic and amazing.
@@EricEsenwine Itkovian's Gift alone was a seminal moment and a tearjerker. Chain of Dogs and Capustan siege were so emotional and hard hitting. Erikson definitely knows how to bring about an emotional crescendo in his readers.
You will feel a much greater connection to the characters when/if you read Deadhouse Gates. I won’t say which ones, though. Your sympathies will probably sway, and sometimes you’ll feel torn, but your emotions will definitely come into play.
It's hard for people to understand malazan when they read the first book which is what 5% of the whole story. It's like a snowball rolling downhill as the series continues it gets better.
Once you finish the series, this book makes a lot more sense. Many "minor" characters in this book end up being very important later. Also, the next book is a huge jump up in writing quality. Heck, wait until you meet Iskaral Pust, Coltaine, Krupp, and Bugg.
TEHOL, KARSA, KALAM, QUIK, FIDDLER, RAKE, UBLALA, Torvald, Harrlos story arc... i can understand mention of Iskaral... f***** hilarious.. but you missed the best ones! krupp is annoying, and coltaine is stoic as all hell which can be cool but just makes him bland.. his uncle however hehe makes me laugh
@Eric Jansson to some degree i think kelenveds and dancers relationship to be a "sort of" 'kind of' bromance stormy and geslers ultimate story arc ending was bromance ish.... so many good arcs!
Karsa, Mappo, Icarium etc etc etc etc. Heck I even missed the big deal of the Hammer Brood is kicking around with till I looked up the wiki. You have to be 100 percent attentive or you'll miss stuff.
GotM is generally considered to be the weakest book of the series. Erikson also wrote it years before he started book 2, Deadhouse Gates. Glad to see the series getting some recognition.
what? have you read dust of dreams? dogshit compared to the rest... i thought the crippled god was also not very good. xcept for the last two pages.. and the finality of Crokus Arc.... or how about night of knives? i know erikson didnt write it but ... god dam.. really bad
And yet, I kinda liked it. I'm really struggling on Deadhouse Gates and won't probably finish it :( Definitely lacks clear descriptions of people and places to get a clearer picture of the action.
@@StephSinalco I was just about to drop DG. I was on prologue and it was just not interesting to me. But then shit hit the fan and now I can't stop reading. I think you just have to be in the mood for it.
I would love to see a re-review after you've finished the series if you can spare the time for a re-read. For so many of us this series improves on the second reading.
I think this is the most complete and accurate review of Gardens of the Moon that I have yet to come across, and I'm so grateful to you for making it! It would have been SO useful to me two years ago, when I was presenting the Malazan Book of the Fallen to my fellow coursemates at uni, haha!
People are so sleep on this series, it's ridiculous. Example, for you Game of Thrones fans, imagine Daenyrs could not only command dragons but can transform into a dragon herself and was also a great swordswoman who had the power to wield magic?? And then imagine that this almighty Daenrys fought against Jon Snow whose Targaryen blood allowed him to be superhuman strong, agile, and deadly enough to combat Daenrys with his supreme swordsmanship -- even though he himself couldn't transform into a dragon? And imagine that Jaime Lannister was such a crazy swordman that he could've killed two of Daenyrs dragons in a sword fight all by himself with his own strength and superior skills? Ladies and gents, what I just described to you is a small TASTE of Malazan Book of the Fallen. If people love action, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, or any other fantasy in general, people have to experience this story. But, heads up, this story is not only complex, but incredibly, emotionally intense, brutal, and sad. There's Metal Gear Solid. There's Soul Reaver. And then you have something special like Malazan Book of the Fallen. Check it out now.
this is the quote i always copy paste when wanting to describe malazan : “Imagine a massive-scale battle-royale over decades (and aeons) between the Romans, the Turks, the Mongols, emogoth dark elves that are not to be fucked with, a bunch of extremely pissed-off Inuit, Conan’s roided-up big brother, undead neanderthal warriors, uber-samurai, gods, elder gods, demigods, usurper gods, alien gods, insane priests, sorcerers, warlocks, shamans, witches, nearly-immortal orcs with the driest imaginable sense of humour, demons, sea monsters, assassins, shapeshifters, a giant-beetle airforce and T-rexes with swords for arms, all competing to see who can fuck each other over the hardest.”
Its on my Tbr, but right now i'm going through WoT, and I fell like 2 massive in scale 3 million + word epic fantasies back to back is overkill, so i'm gonna put a couple smaller series in between them
A thorough review 😊 Your criticisms are accurate, fair and not at all wrong. That said, great writing doesn’t always make for a great story, just more linear reading, and authors don’t owe us readers a damn thing These books are tough, and get much tougher, Toll The Hounds wounded me deeply, I couldn’t pick up a book for months afterwards, and none of them are perfect, but the price is worth paying, it’s always an even trade with Mr. Erikson After each book, after finishing the series, after a re read, after each heart wrenching chapter of each book the one review that always stands out to me is ‘I stand slack jawed in awe of The Malazan Book Of The Fallen...’ You will not be disappointed when you finally put down The Crippled God, I swear it.
I completely agree with what you say. Gardens of the Moon was such a difficult read, but the writing takes a huge from the second book onwards. Just finished Memories of Ice last night, and am already reeling from the events of the final moments, and you are saying that it is just going to get lot tougher to come to terms with the world. Chain of Dogs and Capustan were already an emotional block to get over, I am feeling more anxious that most of my favourite characters aren't going to survive the series end.
I agree, but you are wrong with saying 'the author doesn't owe us a thing'. This may be true if the work is free and ready for all to read. End of the day, we have to pay for these books.
Completely agree. Always an even trade, more, after i finished my first read I felt guilty for thinking the story was chaotic. It all fits perfectly, at least imo.
TheDarkCreed86 literature is an art, open to interpretation, it can’t just be about a simple dollar value Artists of any kind, written word, paint, music, whatever, are going to good, bad and ugly in degrees from person to person, that’s what can make certain works special for people, we each our own 😊
Great review Elliot! I’m glad you noticed the subtle worldbuilding through character’s eyes. That’s actually what sucked me in to the books, I really liked it. It somehow let me picture the scenes and settings quicker and more completely than paragraph after paragraph describing the carpets and desks, etc. I think all of your criticisms are very valid. I can’t really deny any of them despite loving the book lol! Hope you’ll enjoy Deadhouse Gates more, it’s very slow in the beginning but much better written. There was a 10 year gap between Erikson writing Gardens and Deadhouse. He grew a lot as a writer. Can’t say it doesn’t get any less chaotic though lol
The audiobook performances are phenomenal. Ralph Lister & then Michael Page both made huge fans out of me (minor tragedy that Lister doesn't read the entire series). But you pointed out the biggest drawback to the audiobook experience. The desperate need for better indicated scene shifts. Really thoughtful review!
man, i never thought of audio book version until reading your comment my immeadiate thought was 'no way' the characters represented in my imagination, they way they sound would just all be kiboshed by audiobook narration.
Great review! Although I have one counterargument to provide: most of your criticisms are almost sort of "intentional" flaws. Stuff like the Azath houses might seem like deus ex machina but if you read all of Malazan its comparable to being blind and trying to navigate a city and suddenly being able to see for the first time. So much stuff makes sense and I awe Erikson's forethought when constructing the world. It's like Hoid in the cosmere, only it's not one person but an entire world that is connected. IMO it's so interesting because it is an absolute reflection of reality. We don't know or understand everything and we never will. People will come and go, and they might never even cross our mind again while they go on to bring great change. I still think after 20 years of being a fantasy nerd that Malazan is the most rewarding series ever when it comes to rereading. It's like a beautiful painting, which everytime you look at it reveals another hitherto hidden detail. No other series made my head hurt so much and yet and I still feel blessed to have discovered it (looking at you WoT). Good luck with DG!
Yeah, I know a lot of people say something similar to what you expressed! I tried to make it clear that things feel random in this first book in particular, since it’s common for things to be explained later. I do think it maybe happened a few too many times in this first book, where it was almost unsatisfying, though I can definitely see how that would change in later books :)
@@ebnovels Yeah I totally agree and the whole "blueprint" review segment was actually scarily accurate. I myself remember being baffled by stuff like the Deck of Dragons or Warrens. It's just that you seemed pretty meh about it in your reading vlogs so I wanted to provide some encouragement :)
I feel so far that the interpersonal and organizational conflicts and subtexts are greater in WoT but the divinity and civilization conflicts are greater in Malazan. You care about the jaghut, the first empire, and sundering of the tisti races among many other stories in Malazan. In WoT the foraken, children of light, and black ajah provide conflict. One is a laser focus in time and concentration of power in the present day of the narrative while the other has inertia and weight of entire races and skips tens or hundreds of thousands of years. The tragedy of one is always immediate while the impact of the other almost forgotten but for a few.
Her points about the technical flaws of the first book are really good though. At some points I found it very hard to care because the stakes were not adequately described. I felt like I was more along for the ride than seriously invested. I slogged through some parts just because I know there will eventually be a setup and explanation to later books in the series. As a standalone book it is unfortunately not very strong IMO, although there are amazing, well-written scenes and the world building is pretty cool.
I agree with your review. Nice review by the way! I gave up after book 3 because I got lost with all the characters. But I would like to know how the series ended. The series is massive. I wish Erikson would have gone ASOIAF to George. R. R. Martin way with one chapter focusing on one character instead of head-hopping. Didn't work for me. But that just me.
Ah, sorry it was a miss for you! I’ve heard some people say they stopped and then tried again and liked it a lot more, so if you ever do that, hopefully the second try is better. And if you never do that, then enjoy the other things you pick up 😄
"Thrown into a world" is basically a perfect description for this book. The book is not a book that can be properly reviewed on its own imho. On its own this book is not great. It's basically just setting the scene with a lot of "intro" and not much depth beyond 2 characters. Re-reading this book after reading the entire series is entirely different from the first read. The arc of this series is fantastic and nothing compares to it. It's so ridiculous that you don't even get a proper sense of the main arc until book 5 which is a masterpiece. Re-reading these books is a must - especially the epilogues and prologues.
@@mkgnlgt ... yea.... poor Brys... Trull ... Rhulad..... you're right it was a great read.... my fav arc in all malazan book of fallen is Tehols... and Rhulads is good too. but could i argue for 'House of Chains' case being #1? when erikson admitted to Karsa being inspired by Conan it all came together in my head. everyone loves a power fantasy
@@kwazhims3lf but many people say memories of ice and bonehunters as no.1 book but nevertheless house chains is a superb book as far as I have read reviews about it
Lots of fair criticisms and I think you did a good job of highlighting many of the pros. On perspective, Erikson has gone on record as saying he is a fan of "third person limited omniscience". Hopefully the cons didn't outweigh the pros for you, because I think the series only gets better from here!
If you read more of the books then trust me you will cry as you start caring about characters. I personally read the main series once and then another time with all of the sides stories which is like 26 books total. I just can't get enough of Erikson. This man is just impossible with his imagination. *edit* Ian c. Esslemont has also been getting better and better fyi. Orb Sceptre Throne and Blood and Bone are fucking epic
Just finished Gardens of the Moon this weekend and I'm very early on in Deadhouse Gates. I'm really enjoying it so far. You touched on a lot of great points. For me, however, even with those things, it really clicked for me. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a rollicking, rambling, epic fantasy fun. Kruppe was my personal favorite character. I got the impression this first book was all about laying the seeds for future major events. I'm looking forward to your future thoughts as you continue through the series.
Reading Malazan is like getting punched in the face. In a good way. I dont know. Its weird. It feels like playing a video game with a steep learning curve.
Cole Jordan just finished Gardens of the Moon, I was struck by how tonally similar it is to dark souls! This is the first time I’ve seen it mentioned anywhere, granted this is also the first review of the book I’ve looked at lol.
FromSoft are also currently working on their largest game to date, Elden Ring. They got George RR Martin to handle the world-building (he wrote the lore). This is going to be an Open-World Soulsborne RPG!
@@MrJordwalk Dark Souls is my favorite game of all time! Gardens of the Moon gets a really bad rep, but I have to say that Im enjoying the living hell out of it atm and Im only 100 pages in. Its probably gonna get denser and more characters introduced, but Im ALL IN. Maybe Dark Souls has trained me to love the lore and extract the story from little beautiful and magical details.
Thank you. I have been interested in this series for years, but because of the negativity attached to "getting into" the series...I have held off. Because of this review...I think it will be something that I do sooner, than later. Thank you. I really enjoyed the depth of this review, without spoilers. Great insights and thoughts. I will check out your groups.
Thanks for the fair and honest review. The first book is not the best beginning for fantasy series and I understand completely those who DNF because Erikson is still developing as a writer as he fleshes out the first book. I would also say that the story is about the world, not the characters. Characters do develop as the story goes on but they are never really the point at least not individually. Erikson sees the people of his world as one large character exhibiting both good and bad tendencies. Compassion is a theme throughout and I think that is what keeps it away from the nihilism of grim dark. I look forward to you guys reading more of series.
Great Review. This is the book I tried to read three times and failed, I finally bought the audio book and it made much more sense. This book had a number of ideas, such as Anomander Rakes' sword, that I still find incredible.
@Elliot Brooks and you've only scratched the surface, it becomes way more bizarre in the third book you'll see... But it is definitely an incredible idea
Dragnipur (I believe that how it’s spelt) is a character in its own right with how much attention it commands! You will not be disappointed, I guarantee it!!!
I'm definitely going to be falling behind this month! I read The Final Empire and Gardens of the Moon last month and couldn't decide which to carry on with first, but Mistborn won me over!
I think your review is very spot on with a lot of the issues that first time readers experienced with MBotF. When I first read the series it was a bit overwhelming with all the characters, lack of information on the magic system, and sparse background on the main conflict of the series. Once you get further into the series and history/characters are flushed out a little bit more I think that you may feel a little different about Gardens of the Moon. It would be a great video idea to re-review GotM after you finish the series and see if you agree with how Erikson wrote this novel as the set up piece for everything to come later.
Man I have been watching your reviews a lot, but this one is just something next level stuff. The level of depth analysis that you did and the clarity with which you expressed your views was just phenomenal. Will definitely give this one a read. Although it is overwhelming, but your review made me feel like I can give it a try!! Thank you!!
ok i read this with you on the buddy read, and i have no idea what scene your 'potential spoiler' was for, so i don't think it's a spoiler haha. i have a few ideas what it might be, but nothing obvious. But all your other criticisms, yeah totally. I think you did an amazing job actually of getting into critiques without spoilers, which i think would be really hard for this book.
Haha, ok, I’m glad it wasn’t super obvious 😆 If you care to know SPOILERS the scene I was referring to was with (sorry, I don’t remember the spelling) Lady Symtal being distracted during her party.
I would always recommend that you read the introductions and forward to the books. He established and answers most the points you've raised in this book. Erikson is also notorious for dropping you into the middle of the story, you get the sense that so much has happened before you get to this point. He mentions it in the preface as well. A lot of the things you're feeling is because you get dropped in the middle of the world without any soft landing. But it gets better, trust me.
If I hadn't trusted that this series was a good one before I started reading this, I would have bounced hard off of Malazan after finishing this book. It suffers from the same problem as The Wire...stories that aspire to be epic and multifaceted seem to require so much build up and perspective jumping that for a long time you just don't know enough about any single character to give a damn about what's happening to them. I honestly wasn't hot on this series until maybe the back half of DeadHouse Gates. This is a good series but it takes a ton of patience...could you recommend a book to someone with the caveat that it's "just getting into stride" for like 800 pages?
Although I'm new to Fantasy I want to read Malazan books so bad, well Malazan and Wheel of time but I'm so scared. I enjoy this Malazan vibe in your channel, you go girl 😍
Definitely read WoT first, it has a similar scale as Malazan, but is much easier to follow. Both are epic and amongst the best of their genre though. Have fun.
Great review and very valid criticisms! As you said, GotM is just the beginning and this also means it's not possible to judge the series only based in that first installment. It's always a bit of a relief to hear even native-speakers comment on the vocabulary (makes me feel less bad about my reading comprehension as a non native speaker 😅). Also, the prose is definitely an aspect that improves a lot imo. You'll probably already notice it in Deadhouse Gates but especially the later books have amazing prose. Sometimes he also deviates from this typical dry writing style. So he actually can write very beautifully, he just doesn't do it all the time (which fits the series better, anyway, if you ask me). A lot of the concepts and aspects of the world will become clearer. One example is Dragnipur. In GotM it's a freaky, powerful sword but once you realize what it actually is and what its role in the world is...wow, definitely one of the coolest fantasy artefacts ever! I had to laugh at that 'even the messenger birds have povs' part though. Maybe because I love Crone a lot. I don't think she would mind being called a messenger bird though ;)
That audio book tidbit hit so close to home. It was probably one of the main things that got me lost while listening with all the changes in perspective without any warning.
wow, great review. Been a long time since i read the book so kinda of a refresher, but having finished the series this is a nice to see someones new perspective of the world.
I was thinking about doing a re-read of Malazan and stumbled across the channel. Nice overview! I definitely enjoyed books 2-4 a lot more and I hope you have a chance to read them. I fell off the series around book 5 or 6 and really want to make it to the end.
Great literary analysis!!! You really opened my eyes on a few perspectives on this book. As you noted, Erikson's story is so complex that I think a single read can't capture the nuance, subtlety, and "Easter egg" hunting enjoyment that some reader's crave. For those readers that want to delve deeper into the story the "SciFi & Fantasy Read Along" group breaks the story down chapter by chapter and explores those deeper nuances.
This is a great review! After seeing you and Daniel Greene talk about Malazan I definitely want to have a go at it (and here's another huge series added to my tbr). Your analysis was really thorough and I really liked when you talked about the changes of pov/in the third person, I reckon it'll be useful to know when I'll be reading the book!
Easily the best fantasy epic I've ever read. I've finished the 10 core books as well as all the side books by his writing partner Ian Esslemont. I've yet to be disappointed. Deadhouse Gates is up there with my favorite books of all time.
As a huge fan of this series i was really worried this would be a totally negative review from you but this was just a really great/fair review all around. It did show how people can have different tastes in how scenes are approached as some of my absolute favorite scenes are when you get a sudden POV of the person that the main character is about to interact with/fight. I actually think this series is what cemented my like of that type of scene as its done quite often but i can understand that some people would find it frustrating
hahaha I also felt like I was a kid and I was reading an advanced book xD. I'm at book 6 now, and I'm still not sure if I understand the magic system...:P
Best is to enjoy the stories and take each book at face value and not over analyze. I would say hands down some of the best characters ever written and will stay with you for ever. Is full of plot twists - many of which may go no where - but that's just like life! Since he is an archaeologist and anthropologist there are many interesting nuances that resonate with our own pre-history. Also some interesting resonance with current world socio-political circumstances especially in later books if you read between the lines...
My first-ever reading of GotM isn't as problematic as I thought it would be. Yes, you're thrown into an utterly strange reality, and you have to be very alert. There are dialogues that at first make no sense, people violently reacting to some piece of news which doesn't mean a thing to you. But - as you read on, the interconnectedness becomes stronger and stronger. I just finished Book One, and I think Erikson has done a very good job already. If you read carefully and connect the dots, the ever-expanding world becomes clearer and clearer. I certainly intend to read all ten books. Fascinating stuff!
I started this book this week and am now only 7% in, but I'm really enjoying it so far! I also joined the facebook group, though I'm mostly trying to catch up now. I'm just curious to get to those parts that leave everyone confused :P
Messenger bird PoVs: wow. Also, the Dune books (especially later ones) do a lot of head-hopping; particularly in Heretics where you'll be following one character's train of thought and then abruptly switch to another character, if the other character is having a related thought. It is really jarring, but I also find it to be a very interesting and cool narrative tool: it allows the writer to give multiple angles on each situation, and show what each person is doing at cross-purposes with each other. So, I'm not sure if its as bad of a writing thing as its made out to be?
Yah I kinda felt the same about the first book. But the second and third book dwarfs the first. It’s goes deeper in the magic system, fleshes out the characters as you read on. I promise you though you will not regret it if you continue on. Malazan is astonishing, epic and truly unforgettable.
I read it a while ago, and also did a review. I had been looking at some other reviews, most of which were pretty positive. I think your review really brings up the best points...and doesn't gloss over it's flaws. It is a bit of a flawed work, which has some great attributes. Completely agree, rather than a complete novel in itself, its like a blueprint, or a foundational work. There are way too many characters, and they aren't fleshed out. He does a good job of making the short characters stand out, but really, I think if you are a character person who likes character driven works, you are going to be hoping the second book gives you more depth with the characters. People have criticised it for its magic system, but I was the same, it didn't bug me it wasn't fleshed out.
I’m on my third reading of the series. It gets better on each reading. I hope you stick with it as the pay off is well worth it. Great review though, knowledgeable and technical. Definitely will be subscribing. Well done
Reading this now, it's confusing at first coz it doesn't bother to properly set the scene, it's however helpful to have some fan art to help build the scene and characters. Thanks for the review.
You completely nailed most of my criticisms of the book. Not giving a shit about any of the characters is the biggest turn off for me so far. Without spoilers, does this improve at all later on in the series?
The general consensus I think would be yes, yes it does. Erikson said the whole series is a plea for compassion - which it succeeds at in my opinion. Can't do that without caring for the characters 😉
you get the same depth in characters that you do in the best trilogies - here it's just 450+ characters spread over 10books so it takes time before you get to know them.
I felt the same about GotM, DG completely turned me around on it around the half way mark I found myself more emotionally attached to the chain of dogs than I did to most real people
I've made 2 attempts to read this series over the last year or two. On the first attempt the amount of characters just made the story too vague, like nothing was going anywhere. The second time when I got further into this book, I started enjoying it a bit more and everything started coming together, and the characters were more familiar to me. But, I think I had another book that I was really excited to read so I had to put it down again, and haven't got back to it yet. I think it might have been the Wheel Of Time that I had to read, since the series had just been announced, and I felt that I had to get it read before the series started, and to avoid spoilers, and to join in on the WOT hype. Still, I'm looking forward to getting back to the Malazan again soon.
I would never review this series in depth till I've read it twice plus the other books. The further along you get the more the world opens up but Erikson does give hints plenty every chapter.
If you devote so much time to reading a series it becomes almost compulsory not to feel you have wasted your time and consequently u just like it :> cheers !
I view reading Eriksons Malzan books like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. At first you dont even know what you are looking at (though somehow it is compelling) until more pieces are placed. As the pieces fall into place the story clarifies. So if you are lost at the beginning you are just like everyone else.
You get a 🎖 for covering this complex story lol. I probably won't be getting this at least not at the moment. It does seem like the author was experimenting with all these different perspectives & that sounds confusing lol 😄. I actually like 3rd person books but it has be well structured. When i go to barnes and noble this week, ill check out this book out & see what's going on. Also a review can be a bit spoilery as long as the ending isn't revealed cuz you gotta be able to tell us something. I look at like a verbal non visual movie trailer except for books. Anyways i just wanted to show you support here my friend. Have a bless happy reading day 🙌💫💜
Thanks Georgio! Hopefully this doesn’t sound like I’m assuming too much, but from what we’ve chatted about before with books, I’d say some of the other stories we’ve chatted about might be more up your alley. I think you know what I mean by that!
@@ebnovels No problem! Elliot, i didn't want to sound negative lol 😄 I was just trying to understand the book. It doesn't sound like a bad book at all. I was just giving my impressions based on the info you gave me. No hard feelings 👍💗
Thank you for not mentioning WoT at any point in the review. I also find it humorous people want more detail in an 800 page book. However Erickson doesn't spend much time on world building because it is already built and fleshed out. It was their gaming world after all and probably spent years on it.
I have Gardens of the Moon right after The Way if Kings on my TBR but I'm just so scared of reading it, not because I think it's so huge, but because I'm just afraid I won't like it. Is it really worth it for a Fantasy fan (is it a must read) or is it just another good book?
Eh. I read the way of kings then gardens of the moon then started words of radiance. I just feel like there are more books out there than malazan that are more digestible for you to spend your time with. (Like for me I'm not continuing after Gardens of the moon and if it wasnt for stornlight I'd probably be in a reading slump and not reading anything after finishing GOTM)
Ye have to look at the series as a whole, not just GotM. And yes, that is a huge ask and time investment. With no guarantees you'll like it - though you will know after two or three of the books. Could be it's not up your alley, you wouldn't be alone. But for those that love it.. it pretty much stands unrivaled in all of literature. So yeah, would definitely recommend you try it. Just step in with an open mind and see if it grabs ye 😊
I think a lot of people that say it is a must read have read on :) for me, this first book doesn’t feel like a must read, but if the series continues to get better and build on what was introduced in the first book, I can see it being considered a must read 😊
Erikson's prose seems an almost impossible combination of directness and sophistication. I think it IS quite poetic, just not in the expansive kind of poetry seen in authors like Robert Jordan or Ursula K. Le Guin. Rather, it's very tightly poetic, which is wonderfully (and sometimes intimidatingly) tight and dense.
I was intrigued by you pointing out the overuse of names between Coll and Paran, so I went and found that passage. I think it's a deliberate choice by Erikson. We get Paran's point of view and he's doing the maths in his head of I need to infiltrate Darujhistan, helping Coll will delay my arrival BUT arriving with an injured local will make entry into the city much easier. Paran doesn't start using Coll's name until he commits to saving him. Likewise (although this is Parans POV) Coll doesn't start using Paran's name constantly until he's sure Paran is his best option for survival. The constant name using back and forth is after both characters have decided its in their best interests to become friends.
Completely agree. Great review! I purchased the book based on all the hyped reviews. I love complex books (BotNS and Dune are favourites), but this book had zero character development and utterly ridiculous names with zero reference. I might give the series a go another time, but even after two reads of Gardens of the Moon, I still didn't care for it.
Regardless of your opinion of this book and its many sequels there can be no doubt that these two guys have created one of the most amazing fantasy world's ever. the depth and scope of history is off the scale. Sure Erikson has his faults (who doesn't) but as far as high fantasy goes this is the benchmark that all should be judged against. think i am on my 3rd reread of the entire series at the moment and it never gets old and every time i reread i discover bits i missed before and again im in awe of the scale and depth.
the fact that Erikson doesn't spoon feed the reader with huge info dumps is part of the charm, keep with the books as the further you go along the more the pieces fall into place. If you cant read between the lines and need the author to hold your hand as he explains things this isnt the series for you. im not saying you need that by the way!
Recently finished it. It was definitely tedious and awkward read at the beginning. Then I was finding the story interesting in Darujhistan. Then towards the end, it got awkward again. It is an interesting book, even when it has those weird moments.
Great review, I completely agree with pretty much everything you said. His vocabulary is such a huge selling point for me, first series I've read in a long time that I actually learned some new words from. He gets fixated on some words to a fault though. Look out for "detritus" in the coming books, and a good amount of "flotsam" and "ochre" too.
This is a great review, Elliot. Kudos. I don't really agree on your perspective about the worldbuilding, particularly the magic, needing to have been more fleshed out more in GOTM, however. Maybe it's just because when I was reading it I always just accepted that this was, like you say, the first part, the beginning, of a much larger story and that the knowing would come later on. Or maybe it's just as I've gotten further along, and the magic has become a more intrinsic part of the worldbuilding (err and i mean that in a very literal sense) that I forgot that it was so opaque in the GOTM. Completely agree with your take on the gender roles attitude as well. I didn't actually pick up on this until about Memories of Ice, but it's something that I also appreciate and helps to further delineate that world from ours (you know, if the floating mountain city wasn't enough). I also strongly agree with you on the occasions that he can be so subtle sometimes and then wack you over the face with information the other time. I find it incredibly jarring when that happens, and it's my personal single biggest criticism of the series so far. I think I remember hearing you say in another video that you're going to give at least the first few books in the series a try, so I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion on Deadhouse Gates, which is far better written book in terms of the things you criticised from GOTM.
i think this is gonna be my next book, and i'm legit scared. i've flipped through the first few pages (figuratively since i read on my ipad) and there are like five maps and several pages filled with character names. Oof. i'm also not a native speaker, so if you had trouble with the vocabulary, i think i might actually struggle hahaha.
@@BooksRebound i'm definitely going to check out your vid. i was thinking before that it might be useful to watch a channel for malazan like i did for wheel of time (daniel greene). but unlike wot i don't plan on binging all 20 something books in a few months hahaha. i want to take it slow, at least in the beginning. i'm reading elantris right now, but i think i might pick up gardens of the moon by next week.
I think you’d be alright! There was the occasional words I didn’t know, but I by no means think the story is littered with advanced vocabulary :) Also, the writing style is quite direct otherwise, so even if you don’t know what something means, you could probably use context to figure it out 😊
@@BooksRebound all 10 books 9 times? holy shit... i thought i read it too many times.. started on GOTM in 2003 and since have finished all 10 just 3 times.. 9 gold stars for you i guess!
So Glad I found this channel, sup from South Africa...its legit lonely here for fantasy/sci-fi book nerds. Also I'm currently reading Midnight Tides (book 5 i think) it gets easier Im not as lost anymore. I remember reading gardens of the moon and seeing a dramatis personae page and thought "pfft I'll never use this bulcrap"..now I'm like who the hell is this again let me check the dramatis personae.
Having not read ALL the books in the world, or been a lit major, the Malazan series was an incredible journey that was never hindered by any of the writing. Despite the arguments and what you saw as rough edges it was never a problem. There might be a word for it in the conventional sense ( Third Person Limited, Third Person Deep, Head-hopping) but... you can't make me dislike the story or the writing. The only thing I was miffed at any point about was when a new 'book' or chapter started and the character I had fell into's story was put on hold. But you get over it as you remember the character you wished would have continued is now the character in the chapter you are now reading. This series isn't The Black Company. You would NOT be thinking the same things if it was poetry. I don't think any of the eccentricities of the writing make the story any worse at all.
Just started the book, 100 pages or so in and it's a big slogfest. Just when I was beginning to get used to some characters that were established and to "care" what they do, the guy shifts to something completely different that I find boring and annoying. It's just hard to read and care about what's going on. I'll continue only because of the recommendations that later things do pay off, but for now I paused and started reading Mistborn and I'm already 100 pages in on the same day I started, whereas it took me 2 weeks to read 100 pages of Gardens of the Moon.
As someone who absolutely loves the series I totally agree with you. The only reason I got through the first and second book was because a friend of mine said it was the best series ever. The second book has stronger characters (COLTAINE) but since they’re all new you have to start over. Memories of ice is where the story really caught me on an emotional level and for me book 3, 4 and 5 are the strongest in the series. Memories of ice for the emotional impact, House of chains for its focus and Midnight tides because it’s so funny. Just like you I feel that Gardens of the moon is needlessly obtuse when just a quick little comment could have kept the reader from becoming confused. For me one of the big things that caused confusion was at first is that warrens are both realms you can travel through and a source of magic.
Thanks for sharing that! It definitely gives me some encouragement. I was just trying to figure out when I’m going to read the next couple, and I felt a bit daunted tbh, so this really helps 😄
@@ebnovels Yeah that's how I felt too. If my friend hadn't been so adamant about the series being so good I'm not sure I would've finished Gardens of the moon, let alone continuing to read the series. Things that start to stand out as you read on is that, at least to me, he's the gold standard when it comes to describing larger battles. One part of the second book is this long outdrawn campaign called the chain of dogs and for me that's one of the areas where his writing really shines. After reading Erikson I really started to pick up on when writers either were bad at describing what's happening in a larger battle or (God forbid) might not actually know what's happening themselves (looking at you R Scott Bakker). If you can push through Deadhouse gates (and it was a bit of a push for me) then Memories of ice is where it pays off. The emotional impact of Memories of ice can't be overstated, at least not for me. It's still a crier for me when rereading it. Another thing that really floored me is how funny Midnight tides is. Overall Erikson is dark and the man loves his tragedies but Tehol and Bugg are absolutely amazing. I reread that book regularly just reading their parts because it's this absurd farce playing out in an otherwise rather dark story. Those two are the Monty Python of Malazan. And at least to me, there's no hints before Midnight tides that the guy's actually funny in any way or knows how to write funny.
There's a difference if you have a difficult and stressful job with a long working day (or whatever occupies you) or not. Unfortunately. Book was too exhausting for me. I quit reading it.
Elliot Brooks glad to hear :) I binged books 2-5. The magic system is expounded upon and clarified somewhat more but there is still ambiguity in that it isn’t a Sanderson-like ultra-defined system (more like a Harry Potter type of system) but is expansive. The ploys and plots gods play on/with humankind as well as the rest of the world are really enjoyable! Especially, when humankind and others see differently or have other plans of their own, knowingly or unknowingly ;)
With such a big series, that has such a bad reputation for an inaccessible first book, doing a rewrite of the relevant events in the first book might be worth it.
This was a really nice review of the book but as alot of the others in the comments have pointed out, GoTM is the weakest of the series. I wanted to touch upon your points about the magic system and how its rules didnt seem defined or clearly displayed and this is definitely an intentional aspect of the series. we the readers arent aware of how the magic system works at first in the same way that many of the characters themselves do not know how it works. like with many other aspects of the series you eventually learn about the many elements of this world alongside the characters although its never outright explained to you, its up to the reader to piece things together themselves as if you were in the story yourself. in the end even thsoe whove read the books multiple times cannot admit to truely understanding how everything works as you seem to learn something new each time or interpret something differently each time you read it. This is why rereads are so common for this series, all this creates a sense of a lifelike world with real history that is often ambiguous and leads to varying viewpoints and beliefs. This series treats you like a simple spectator, you are given no exposition or background narration you are forced to learn through your own experience. The idea of how history remembers things is a huge theme in the rest of the series so much so that the final line in the final book of the series is dedicated entirely to this.
I don't think I'd have as big a problem as I do, if the Character POVs didn't switch between two or three characters in the same chapter. Especially in the first book. Give a character their own chapter to establish them, and start to switch between them later. After we're connected and understand who they are. I'm only on the first book and this is my biggest hurdle getting through it.
This is my favourite high-fantasy series, but I see the validity of many points you make. I would add, that the culture later on becomes really fleshed out, and quite uniqely, due to Erikson's anthropological and archeological background. However, the first 1-3 books are certainly not the best of the series, so it is definitely hard to get into, but once you do, it istruly something else. I just realized that I want to reread the whole series, now, that the core story is complete.
PLS, just pls start with the second book. Its what started to convince me to get invested into the series. SE gets better and better. For me GotM is the least best book of him. Everything else is so amazing, pls continue!
Gardens of the Moon is a slog, but the next 9 books are awesome. When you add in the Ian Esselmont books, and the two prequel series, it's by far my favourite fictional world.
Some of you may guess where I got this name.
First in, last out
FFS let mallet fix your leg already "when theres time"
no f u, theres always time!
Always an even exchange.
omg y'ghatan
Messenger bird!!?? 🤣🤣😂 Crone would love to have a talk with you about her perspective
Well, the review was a lot more positive than I feared! And much like the book itself I need to revisit it to catch all of your points, you went to town on this one.
Minor thing about the one guy who made a derisive comment about a girl with a sword..
He was explicitly called a dumb abrasive brute, and definitively proven wrong - if I'm thinking about the right guy.
If I’m not mistaken, is that the same character that’s listed in the character index as being “an unfortunate bully” or something like that? 😆 Haha, I actually felt kinda bad calling Crone that, cuz I really liked her, but then I remembered she’s fictional and didn’t feel as guilty 🤣
@@ebnovels
Lol, she is being used as a messenger bird, so it's fair. I think the assessment might ruffle some feathers, and make her master chuckle a bit 😁
And yeah, that's the guy 🤣 clearest example how sexism is dealt with in this world
It was the talking bird that caused me to put the book down and never pick it up again. That and the introduction from the author, that basically says you will either love this book or you are too stupid to understand it.
@@grier2593 its so hard to talk about these books with out spoiling anything but Crone isint simply a talking bird. the most common phrase on the sub
reddit for this series when people ask questions is read on
the set gender role is very deliberate from steven and Ian when they made the world - the base idea is that magic not muscle is the ultimate power and in a world where everyone has access to magic the gender roles would evolve in a very different way than in our world. (they've both written and talked about it a lot) ... props for spotting it so early, most of us miss it for a long time as it's never rally talked about in the series.
hint about the magic(clues in the transfer hairlock to a puppet scene) there are more than 1 system of magic in the world.
you'll learn a lot more from kulp and the wican warlocks in deadhouse gates.
looking forward to hearing about the arguments you'll have with your BF over felisins story in the next book. And do enjoy the chain of dogs - one of the most stunning story arcs ever written and where the series overall themes starts to come into play.
We’re excited about book two! I already started it actually :D I’m kinda upset with myself for not doing predictions, because I definitely called Paran’s sisters showing up 😆
The chain of dogs is awesome and deserves an entire season of a possible tv-adaptation of Malazan (oh boy who ever could pull that off has earned my respect)
@@noneofyourbusiness3288 Yeah the Chain of Dogs and the defense of Capustan are my two favorite arcs in the Malazan story... both so tragic and epic and amazing.
@@EricEsenwine Itkovian's Gift alone was a seminal moment and a tearjerker. Chain of Dogs and Capustan siege were so emotional and hard hitting. Erikson definitely knows how to bring about an emotional crescendo in his readers.
You will feel a much greater connection to the characters when/if you read Deadhouse Gates. I won’t say which ones, though. Your sympathies will probably sway, and sometimes you’ll feel torn, but your emotions will definitely come into play.
It's hard for people to understand malazan when they read the first book which is what 5% of the whole story. It's like a snowball rolling downhill as the series continues it gets better.
I’m excited for that :D
Once you finish the series, this book makes a lot more sense. Many "minor" characters in this book end up being very important later. Also, the next book is a huge jump up in writing quality.
Heck, wait until you meet Iskaral Pust, Coltaine, Krupp, and Bugg.
That is definitely true. This ended up being one of my favorite series but it took me two or three tries to get into the story.
Coltaine, please never bring him up again. You just HAD to do it didn't you?
TEHOL, KARSA, KALAM, QUIK, FIDDLER, RAKE, UBLALA, Torvald, Harrlos story arc... i can understand mention of Iskaral... f***** hilarious.. but you missed the best ones!
krupp is annoying, and coltaine is stoic as all hell which can be cool but just makes him bland.. his uncle however hehe makes me laugh
@Eric Jansson
to some degree i think kelenveds and dancers relationship to be a "sort of" 'kind of' bromance
stormy and geslers ultimate story arc ending was bromance ish.... so many good arcs!
Karsa, Mappo, Icarium etc etc etc etc. Heck I even missed the big deal of the Hammer Brood is kicking around with till I looked up the wiki. You have to be 100 percent attentive or you'll miss stuff.
GotM is generally considered to be the weakest book of the series. Erikson also wrote it years before he started book 2, Deadhouse Gates. Glad to see the series getting some recognition.
what? have you read dust of dreams? dogshit compared to the rest... i thought the crippled god was also not very good. xcept for the last two pages.. and the finality of Crokus Arc....
or how about night of knives? i know erikson didnt write it but ... god dam.. really bad
And yet, I kinda liked it. I'm really struggling on Deadhouse Gates and won't probably finish it :( Definitely lacks clear descriptions of people and places to get a clearer picture of the action.
@@StephSinalco I was just about to drop DG. I was on prologue and it was just not interesting to me. But then shit hit the fan and now I can't stop reading. I think you just have to be in the mood for it.
I would love to see a re-review after you've finished the series if you can spare the time for a re-read. For so many of us this series improves on the second reading.
I think this is the most complete and accurate review of Gardens of the Moon that I have yet to come across, and I'm so grateful to you for making it! It would have been SO useful to me two years ago, when I was presenting the Malazan Book of the Fallen to my fellow coursemates at uni, haha!
Wow, thank you very much! I’m definitely intrigued and have already started the next one 😊
People are so sleep on this series, it's ridiculous.
Example, for you Game of Thrones fans, imagine Daenyrs could not only command dragons but can transform into a dragon herself and was also a great swordswoman who had the power to wield magic??
And then imagine that this almighty Daenrys fought against Jon Snow whose Targaryen blood allowed him to be superhuman strong, agile, and deadly enough to combat Daenrys with his supreme swordsmanship -- even though he himself couldn't transform into a dragon?
And imagine that Jaime Lannister was such a crazy swordman that he could've killed two of Daenyrs dragons in a sword fight all by himself with his own strength and superior skills?
Ladies and gents, what I just described to you is a small TASTE of Malazan Book of the Fallen.
If people love action, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, or any other fantasy in general, people have to experience this story.
But, heads up, this story is not only complex, but incredibly, emotionally intense, brutal, and sad.
There's Metal Gear Solid. There's Soul Reaver. And then you have something special like Malazan Book of the Fallen.
Check it out now.
this is the quote i always copy paste when wanting to describe malazan :
“Imagine a massive-scale battle-royale over decades (and aeons) between the Romans, the Turks, the Mongols, emogoth dark elves that are not to be fucked with, a bunch of extremely pissed-off Inuit, Conan’s roided-up big brother, undead neanderthal warriors, uber-samurai, gods, elder gods, demigods, usurper gods, alien gods, insane priests, sorcerers, warlocks, shamans, witches, nearly-immortal orcs with the driest imaginable sense of humour, demons, sea monsters, assassins, shapeshifters, a giant-beetle airforce and T-rexes with swords for arms, all competing to see who can fuck each other over the hardest.”
@@paulramberg9081 that's sum it up right! lmao
@@paulramberg9081 LOL hell yea!
@@momonvhe2345 "That sums it up right!" Yeap! lol
Its on my Tbr, but right now i'm going through WoT, and I fell like 2 massive in scale 3 million + word epic fantasies back to back is overkill, so i'm gonna put a couple smaller series in between them
A thorough review 😊
Your criticisms are accurate, fair and not at all wrong. That said, great writing doesn’t always make for a great story, just more linear reading, and authors don’t owe us readers a damn thing
These books are tough, and get much tougher, Toll The Hounds wounded me deeply, I couldn’t pick up a book for months afterwards, and none of them are perfect, but the price is worth paying, it’s always an even trade with Mr. Erikson
After each book, after finishing the series, after a re read, after each heart wrenching chapter of each book the one review that always stands out to me is ‘I stand slack jawed in awe of The Malazan Book Of The Fallen...’
You will not be disappointed when you finally put down The Crippled God, I swear it.
This needs to be at the top.
I completely agree with what you say. Gardens of the Moon was such a difficult read, but the writing takes a huge from the second book onwards.
Just finished Memories of Ice last night, and am already reeling from the events of the final moments, and you are saying that it is just going to get lot tougher to come to terms with the world. Chain of Dogs and Capustan were already an emotional block to get over, I am feeling more anxious that most of my favourite characters aren't going to survive the series end.
I agree, but you are wrong with saying 'the author doesn't owe us a thing'. This may be true if the work is free and ready for all to read. End of the day, we have to pay for these books.
Completely agree. Always an even trade, more, after i finished my first read I felt guilty for thinking the story was chaotic. It all fits perfectly, at least imo.
TheDarkCreed86 literature is an art, open to interpretation, it can’t just be about a simple dollar value
Artists of any kind, written word, paint, music, whatever, are going to good, bad and ugly in degrees from person to person, that’s what can make certain works special for people, we each our own 😊
Great review Elliot! I’m glad you noticed the subtle worldbuilding through character’s eyes. That’s actually what sucked me in to the books, I really liked it. It somehow let me picture the scenes and settings quicker and more completely than paragraph after paragraph describing the carpets and desks, etc.
I think all of your criticisms are very valid. I can’t really deny any of them despite loving the book lol!
Hope you’ll enjoy Deadhouse Gates more, it’s very slow in the beginning but much better written. There was a 10 year gap between Erikson writing Gardens and Deadhouse. He grew a lot as a writer. Can’t say it doesn’t get any less chaotic though lol
I already started Deadhouse Gates! Im so mad I didn’t do a predictions part in this video, cuz I KNEW Paran’s sisters would show up 😆
Elliot Brooks haha, well guessed then. Sounds like a good idea! would be very interesting to hear yours and Sean’s predictions
The audiobook performances are phenomenal. Ralph Lister & then Michael Page both made huge fans out of me (minor tragedy that Lister doesn't read the entire series).
But you pointed out the biggest drawback to the audiobook experience. The desperate need for better indicated scene shifts.
Really thoughtful review!
man, i never thought of audio book version until reading your comment
my immeadiate thought was 'no way'
the characters represented in my imagination, they way they sound would just all be kiboshed by audiobook narration.
the "bro I'm with you on that" at 9:50 got me to subscribe 😂
Great review! Although I have one counterargument to provide: most of your criticisms are almost sort of "intentional" flaws. Stuff like the Azath houses might seem like deus ex machina but if you read all of Malazan its comparable to being blind and trying to navigate a city and suddenly being able to see for the first time. So much stuff makes sense and I awe Erikson's forethought when constructing the world. It's like Hoid in the cosmere, only it's not one person but an entire world that is connected. IMO it's so interesting because it is an absolute reflection of reality. We don't know or understand everything and we never will. People will come and go, and they might never even cross our mind again while they go on to bring great change. I still think after 20 years of being a fantasy nerd that Malazan is the most rewarding series ever when it comes to rereading. It's like a beautiful painting, which everytime you look at it reveals another hitherto hidden detail. No other series made my head hurt so much and yet and I still feel blessed to have discovered it (looking at you WoT). Good luck with DG!
Yeah, I know a lot of people say something similar to what you expressed! I tried to make it clear that things feel random in this first book in particular, since it’s common for things to be explained later. I do think it maybe happened a few too many times in this first book, where it was almost unsatisfying, though I can definitely see how that would change in later books :)
@@ebnovels Yeah I totally agree and the whole "blueprint" review segment was actually scarily accurate. I myself remember being baffled by stuff like the Deck of Dragons or Warrens. It's just that you seemed pretty meh about it in your reading vlogs so I wanted to provide some encouragement :)
I feel so far that the interpersonal and organizational conflicts and subtexts are greater in WoT but the divinity and civilization conflicts are greater in Malazan. You care about the jaghut, the first empire, and sundering of the tisti races among many other stories in Malazan. In WoT the foraken, children of light, and black ajah provide conflict. One is a laser focus in time and concentration of power in the present day of the narrative while the other has inertia and weight of entire races and skips tens or hundreds of thousands of years. The tragedy of one is always immediate while the impact of the other almost forgotten but for a few.
Her points about the technical flaws of the first book are really good though. At some points I found it very hard to care because the stakes were not adequately described. I felt like I was more along for the ride than seriously invested. I slogged through some parts just because I know there will eventually be a setup and explanation to later books in the series. As a standalone book it is unfortunately not very strong IMO, although there are amazing, well-written scenes and the world building is pretty cool.
I agree with your review. Nice review by the way! I gave up after book 3 because I got lost with all the characters. But I would like to know how the series ended. The series is massive. I wish Erikson would have gone ASOIAF to George. R. R. Martin way with one chapter focusing on one character instead of head-hopping. Didn't work for me. But that just me.
Ah, sorry it was a miss for you! I’ve heard some people say they stopped and then tried again and liked it a lot more, so if you ever do that, hopefully the second try is better. And if you never do that, then enjoy the other things you pick up 😄
"Thrown into a world" is basically a perfect description for this book. The book is not a book that can be properly reviewed on its own imho. On its own this book is not great. It's basically just setting the scene with a lot of "intro" and not much depth beyond 2 characters. Re-reading this book after reading the entire series is entirely different from the first read. The arc of this series is fantastic and nothing compares to it. It's so ridiculous that you don't even get a proper sense of the main arc until book 5 which is a masterpiece. Re-reading these books is a must - especially the epilogues and prologues.
Wankeroo midnight tides is still my favourite of the series, Shakespearean Tragedy....
Wankeroo Completely agree!!! Everything comes together beautifully, and you don’t know till you get there. It’s built in fantastic fashion!
@@mkgnlgt ... yea.... poor Brys... Trull ... Rhulad..... you're right it was a great read.... my fav arc in all malazan book of fallen is Tehols... and Rhulads is good too.
but could i argue for 'House of Chains' case being #1? when erikson admitted to Karsa being inspired by Conan it all came together in my head. everyone loves a power fantasy
@@kwazhims3lf but many people say memories of ice and bonehunters as no.1 book but nevertheless house chains is a superb book as far as I have read reviews about it
What is the music at the very end? Shazam doesn't pick it up.
Lots of fair criticisms and I think you did a good job of highlighting many of the pros. On perspective, Erikson has gone on record as saying he is a fan of "third person limited omniscience". Hopefully the cons didn't outweigh the pros for you, because I think the series only gets better from here!
I’ve already continued with the next one :D Haha, and I didn’t know that with perspective-thanks for informing me 😄
If you read more of the books then trust me you will cry as you start caring about characters.
I personally read the main series once and then another time with all of the sides stories which is like 26 books total. I just can't get enough of Erikson. This man is just impossible with his imagination.
*edit*
Ian c. Esslemont has also been getting better and better fyi. Orb Sceptre Throne and Blood and Bone are fucking epic
Just finished Gardens of the Moon this weekend and I'm very early on in Deadhouse Gates. I'm really enjoying it so far. You touched on a lot of great points. For me, however, even with those things, it really clicked for me. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a rollicking, rambling, epic fantasy fun. Kruppe was my personal favorite character. I got the impression this first book was all about laying the seeds for future major events. I'm looking forward to your future thoughts as you continue through the series.
Reading Malazan is like getting punched in the face. In a good way. I dont know. Its weird. It feels like playing a video game with a steep learning curve.
DARK SOULS! Malazan and Dark Souls are tonally similar as well, as both are soaked in misery.
Cole Jordan just finished Gardens of the Moon, I was struck by how tonally similar it is to dark souls! This is the first time I’ve seen it mentioned anywhere, granted this is also the first review of the book I’ve looked at lol.
FromSoft are also currently working on their largest game to date, Elden Ring. They got George RR Martin to handle the world-building (he wrote the lore). This is going to be an Open-World Soulsborne RPG!
@@MrJordwalk Dark Souls is my favorite game of all time! Gardens of the Moon gets a really bad rep, but I have to say that Im enjoying the living hell out of it atm and Im only 100 pages in. Its probably gonna get denser and more characters introduced, but Im ALL IN. Maybe Dark Souls has trained me to love the lore and extract the story from little beautiful and magical details.
@@berserker8884
Dark Souls is my Top 3. Have you seen that they Remastered/Remade Demon's Souls for PS5?
Thank you. I have been interested in this series for years, but because of the negativity attached to "getting into" the series...I have held off. Because of this review...I think it will be something that I do sooner, than later. Thank you. I really enjoyed the depth of this review, without spoilers. Great insights and thoughts. I will check out your groups.
Just make your own mind up, listening to others and making your decision based off theirs will have you missing out on a lot of great things.
“Even messenger birds have perspectives”
Yeah... I love Crone though. Probably my favorite character besides Rake in GoTM
Thanks for the fair and honest review. The first book is not the best beginning for fantasy series and I understand completely those who DNF because Erikson is still developing as a writer as he fleshes out the first book. I would also say that the story is about the world, not the characters. Characters do develop as the story goes on but they are never really the point at least not individually. Erikson sees the people of his world as one large character exhibiting both good and bad tendencies. Compassion is a theme throughout and I think that is what keeps it away from the nihilism of grim dark. I look forward to you guys reading more of series.
Great Review. This is the book I tried to read three times and failed, I finally bought the audio book and it made much more sense. This book had a number of ideas, such as Anomander Rakes' sword, that I still find incredible.
His sword is so bizarre 😆 But definitely unique, I must say!
@Elliot Brooks and you've only scratched the surface, it becomes way more bizarre in the third book you'll see... But it is definitely an incredible idea
Dragnipur (I believe that how it’s spelt) is a character in its own right with how much attention it commands! You will not be disappointed, I guarantee it!!!
I'm definitely going to be falling behind this month! I read The Final Empire and Gardens of the Moon last month and couldn't decide which to carry on with first, but Mistborn won me over!
Ohh, Well of Ascension is so good! It’s very political, which I loved :D Hope you enjoy it!
started with mistborn too, it‘s really good and interesting things happen
did you enjoy it though?
Just starting out the video and I can already see the length you'd be covering in reviewing such a dense book.
MBotF is personally my favorite series of all time! Fair criticism and great review!
I think your review is very spot on with a lot of the issues that first time readers experienced with MBotF. When I first read the series it was a bit overwhelming with all the characters, lack of information on the magic system, and sparse background on the main conflict of the series. Once you get further into the series and history/characters are flushed out a little bit more I think that you may feel a little different about Gardens of the Moon. It would be a great video idea to re-review GotM after you finish the series and see if you agree with how Erikson wrote this novel as the set up piece for everything to come later.
Elliot!!! Im just catching this video from 2 yrs ago. Did you continued with Malazan?
Man I have been watching your reviews a lot, but this one is just something next level stuff. The level of depth analysis that you did and the clarity with which you expressed your views was just phenomenal. Will definitely give this one a read. Although it is overwhelming, but your review made me feel like I can give it a try!!
Thank you!!
So happy you talked about the difficulty of the audio books for this one!
Hey you ever read Ringworld?
This is such a thoughtful review - I love it
ok i read this with you on the buddy read, and i have no idea what scene your 'potential spoiler' was for, so i don't think it's a spoiler haha. i have a few ideas what it might be, but nothing obvious. But all your other criticisms, yeah totally. I think you did an amazing job actually of getting into critiques without spoilers, which i think would be really hard for this book.
Haha, ok, I’m glad it wasn’t super obvious 😆 If you care to know SPOILERS
the scene I was referring to was with (sorry, I don’t remember the spelling) Lady Symtal being distracted during her party.
I would always recommend that you read the introductions and forward to the books. He established and answers most the points you've raised in this book.
Erikson is also notorious for dropping you into the middle of the story, you get the sense that so much has happened before you get to this point. He mentions it in the preface as well. A lot of the things you're feeling is because you get dropped in the middle of the world without any soft landing. But it gets better, trust me.
thats a sign of a bad book
If I hadn't trusted that this series was a good one before I started reading this, I would have bounced hard off of Malazan after finishing this book. It suffers from the same problem as The Wire...stories that aspire to be epic and multifaceted seem to require so much build up and perspective jumping that for a long time you just don't know enough about any single character to give a damn about what's happening to them.
I honestly wasn't hot on this series until maybe the back half of DeadHouse Gates. This is a good series but it takes a ton of patience...could you recommend a book to someone with the caveat that it's "just getting into stride" for like 800 pages?
Although I'm new to Fantasy I want to read Malazan books so bad, well Malazan and Wheel of time but I'm so scared.
I enjoy this Malazan vibe in your channel, you go girl 😍
Definitely read WoT first, it has a similar scale as Malazan, but is much easier to follow. Both are epic and amongst the best of their genre though. Have fun.
@@adsm6464 thank you! I try Wheel of time first.
@John i just purchased the first book in Wheel of time so wish me luck!
Great review and very valid criticisms! As you said, GotM is just the beginning and this also means it's not possible to judge the series only based in that first installment.
It's always a bit of a relief to hear even native-speakers comment on the vocabulary (makes me feel less bad about my reading comprehension as a non native speaker 😅). Also, the prose is definitely an aspect that improves a lot imo. You'll probably already notice it in Deadhouse Gates but especially the later books have amazing prose. Sometimes he also deviates from this typical dry writing style. So he actually can write very beautifully, he just doesn't do it all the time (which fits the series better, anyway, if you ask me).
A lot of the concepts and aspects of the world will become clearer. One example is Dragnipur. In GotM it's a freaky, powerful sword but once you realize what it actually is and what its role in the world is...wow, definitely one of the coolest fantasy artefacts ever!
I had to laugh at that 'even the messenger birds have povs' part though. Maybe because I love Crone a lot. I don't think she would mind being called a messenger bird though ;)
That audio book tidbit hit so close to home. It was probably one of the main things that got me lost while listening with all the changes in perspective without any warning.
Is that edition readable ? It’s showing mass market paperback on my amazon I mostly don’t get them but is it readable ?
The mass market has the same cover and is smaller. It’s only 666 pages but if you don’t like mass markets go to the regular paperback
My edition is tall, and I found it quite readable :) The mass market is much smaller.
It's a matter of preference, but I'm a big mass market paperback fan and find them perfectly readable 😃
wow, great review. Been a long time since i read the book so kinda of a refresher, but having finished the series this is a nice to see someones new perspective of the world.
I was thinking about doing a re-read of Malazan and stumbled across the channel. Nice overview! I definitely enjoyed books 2-4 a lot more and I hope you have a chance to read them. I fell off the series around book 5 or 6 and really want to make it to the end.
Great literary analysis!!! You really opened my eyes on a few perspectives on this book. As you noted, Erikson's story is so complex that I think a single read can't capture the nuance, subtlety, and "Easter egg" hunting enjoyment that some reader's crave. For those readers that want to delve deeper into the story the "SciFi & Fantasy Read Along" group breaks the story down chapter by chapter and explores those deeper nuances.
This is a great review! After seeing you and Daniel Greene talk about Malazan I definitely want to have a go at it (and here's another huge series added to my tbr). Your analysis was really thorough and I really liked when you talked about the changes of pov/in the third person, I reckon it'll be useful to know when I'll be reading the book!
I'm guessing you didn't name drop to avoid spoilers but I'd like to have the names anyway.
It was originally meant as a d&d campaign.. also he apparently did not use an editor.
Easily the best fantasy epic I've ever read. I've finished the 10 core books as well as all the side books by his writing partner Ian Esslemont. I've yet to be disappointed. Deadhouse Gates is up there with my favorite books of all time.
As a huge fan of this series i was really worried this would be a totally negative review from you but this was just a really great/fair review all around. It did show how people can have different tastes in how scenes are approached as some of my absolute favorite scenes are when you get a sudden POV of the person that the main character is about to interact with/fight. I actually think this series is what cemented my like of that type of scene as its done quite often but i can understand that some people would find it frustrating
hahaha I also felt like I was a kid and I was reading an advanced book xD. I'm at book 6 now, and I'm still not sure if I understand the magic system...:P
Interesting, you seem pretty positive about the book in general here, but as I remember you DNF'd Deadhouse Gates, right?
Best is to enjoy the stories and take each book at face value and not over analyze. I would say hands down some of the best characters ever written and will stay with you for ever. Is full of plot twists - many of which may go no where - but that's just like life! Since he is an archaeologist and anthropologist there are many interesting nuances that resonate with our own pre-history. Also some interesting resonance with current world socio-political circumstances especially in later books if you read between the lines...
My first-ever reading of GotM isn't as problematic as I thought it would be. Yes, you're thrown into an utterly strange reality, and you have to be very alert. There are dialogues that at first make no sense, people violently reacting to some piece of news which doesn't mean a thing to you. But - as you read on, the interconnectedness becomes stronger and stronger. I just finished Book One, and I think Erikson has done a very good job already. If you read carefully and connect the dots, the ever-expanding world becomes clearer and clearer. I certainly intend to read all ten books. Fascinating stuff!
I started this book this week and am now only 7% in, but I'm really enjoying it so far! I also joined the facebook group, though I'm mostly trying to catch up now. I'm just curious to get to those parts that leave everyone confused :P
Yay! I’m glad you’re liking it! You’ll have to keep me updated :D
Messenger bird PoVs: wow.
Also, the Dune books (especially later ones) do a lot of head-hopping; particularly in Heretics where you'll be following one character's train of thought and then abruptly switch to another character, if the other character is having a related thought. It is really jarring, but I also find it to be a very interesting and cool narrative tool: it allows the writer to give multiple angles on each situation, and show what each person is doing at cross-purposes with each other. So, I'm not sure if its as bad of a writing thing as its made out to be?
Yah I kinda felt the same about the first book. But the second and third book dwarfs the first. It’s goes deeper in the magic system, fleshes out the characters as you read on. I promise you though you will not regret it if you continue on. Malazan is astonishing, epic and truly unforgettable.
I read it a while ago, and also did a review. I had been looking at some other reviews, most of which were pretty positive. I think your review really brings up the best points...and doesn't gloss over it's flaws. It is a bit of a flawed work, which has some great attributes. Completely agree, rather than a complete novel in itself, its like a blueprint, or a foundational work. There are way too many characters, and they aren't fleshed out. He does a good job of making the short characters stand out, but really, I think if you are a character person who likes character driven works, you are going to be hoping the second book gives you more depth with the characters.
People have criticised it for its magic system, but I was the same, it didn't bug me it wasn't fleshed out.
I’m on my third reading of the series. It gets better on each reading. I hope you stick with it as the pay off is well worth it. Great review though, knowledgeable and technical. Definitely will be subscribing. Well done
Recently finished the book and this is a really great review
Reading this now, it's confusing at first coz it doesn't bother to properly set the scene, it's however helpful to have some fan art to help build the scene and characters. Thanks for the review.
You completely nailed most of my criticisms of the book. Not giving a shit about any of the characters is the biggest turn off for me so far. Without spoilers, does this improve at all later on in the series?
The general consensus I think would be yes, yes it does.
Erikson said the whole series is a plea for compassion - which it succeeds at in my opinion. Can't do that without caring for the characters 😉
you get the same depth in characters that you do in the best trilogies - here it's just 450+ characters spread over 10books so it takes time before you get to know them.
I felt the same about GotM, DG completely turned me around on it around the half way mark I found myself more emotionally attached to the chain of dogs than I did to most real people
I've made 2 attempts to read this series over the last year or two.
On the first attempt the amount of characters just made the story too vague, like nothing was going anywhere.
The second time when I got further into this book, I started enjoying it a bit more and everything started coming together, and the characters were more familiar to me. But, I think I had another book that I was really excited to read so I had to put it down again, and haven't got back to it yet.
I think it might have been the Wheel Of Time that I had to read, since the series had just been announced, and I felt that I had to get it read before the series started, and to avoid spoilers, and to join in on the WOT hype.
Still, I'm looking forward to getting back to the Malazan again soon.
Will there be a review that includes spoilers?
I would never review this series in depth till I've read it twice plus the other books. The further along you get the more the world opens up but Erikson does give hints plenty every chapter.
Started way of kings re-read. 😄 I still need to sign up for that over on caravan.
Elle, are you going to collect the new mistborn covers?
If you devote so much time to reading a series it becomes almost compulsory not to feel you have wasted your time and consequently u just like it :> cheers !
I view reading Eriksons Malzan books like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. At first you dont even know what you are looking at (though somehow it is compelling) until more pieces are placed. As the pieces fall into place the story clarifies. So if you are lost at the beginning you are just like everyone else.
You get a 🎖 for covering this complex story lol. I probably won't be getting this at least not at the moment. It does seem like the author was experimenting with all these different perspectives & that sounds confusing lol 😄. I actually like 3rd person books but it has be well structured. When i go to barnes and noble this week, ill check out this book out & see what's going on. Also a review can be a bit spoilery as long as the ending isn't revealed cuz you gotta be able to tell us something. I look at like a verbal non visual movie trailer except for books. Anyways i just wanted to show you support here my friend. Have a bless happy reading day 🙌💫💜
@@BooksRebound ok cool! I'll check that out. Thanks for the info 😁👍💫
Thanks Georgio! Hopefully this doesn’t sound like I’m assuming too much, but from what we’ve chatted about before with books, I’d say some of the other stories we’ve chatted about might be more up your alley. I think you know what I mean by that!
@@ebnovels No problem! Elliot, i didn't want to sound negative lol 😄 I was just trying to understand the book. It doesn't sound like a bad book at all. I was just giving my impressions based on the info you gave me. No hard feelings 👍💗
Thank you for not mentioning WoT at any point in the review. I also find it humorous people want more detail in an 800 page book. However Erickson doesn't spend much time on world building because it is already built and fleshed out. It was their gaming world after all and probably spent years on it.
I have Gardens of the Moon right after The Way if Kings on my TBR but I'm just so scared of reading it, not because I think it's so huge, but because I'm just afraid I won't like it. Is it really worth it for a Fantasy fan (is it a must read) or is it just another good book?
Stanley Doolittle I’ve been reading fantasy for 33 years, I’ve never read a better epic fantasy series, it’s extraordinary
Definitely a must-read. It’s amazing.
Eh. I read the way of kings then gardens of the moon then started words of radiance. I just feel like there are more books out there than malazan that are more digestible for you to spend your time with. (Like for me I'm not continuing after Gardens of the moon and if it wasnt for stornlight I'd probably be in a reading slump and not reading anything after finishing GOTM)
Ye have to look at the series as a whole, not just GotM. And yes, that is a huge ask and time investment. With no guarantees you'll like it - though you will know after two or three of the books.
Could be it's not up your alley, you wouldn't be alone.
But for those that love it.. it pretty much stands unrivaled in all of literature.
So yeah, would definitely recommend you try it. Just step in with an open mind and see if it grabs ye 😊
I think a lot of people that say it is a must read have read on :) for me, this first book doesn’t feel like a must read, but if the series continues to get better and build on what was introduced in the first book, I can see it being considered a must read 😊
Erikson's prose seems an almost impossible combination of directness and sophistication. I think it IS quite poetic, just not in the expansive kind of poetry seen in authors like Robert Jordan or Ursula K. Le Guin. Rather, it's very tightly poetic, which is wonderfully (and sometimes intimidatingly) tight and dense.
Except he uses turgid to describe every body of water and air and its very annoying. He's decent for fantasy that's for sure.
@@Levels6789 coruscating. Susurration. And Potsherds, Pothserds everywhere.
and everybody and everything is febrile
I was intrigued by you pointing out the overuse of names between Coll and Paran, so I went and found that passage. I think it's a deliberate choice by Erikson. We get Paran's point of view and he's doing the maths in his head of I need to infiltrate Darujhistan, helping Coll will delay my arrival BUT arriving with an injured local will make entry into the city much easier. Paran doesn't start using Coll's name until he commits to saving him. Likewise (although this is Parans POV) Coll doesn't start using Paran's name constantly until he's sure Paran is his best option for survival.
The constant name using back and forth is after both characters have decided its in their best interests to become friends.
Completely agree. Great review! I purchased the book based on all the hyped reviews. I love complex books (BotNS and Dune are favourites), but this book had zero character development and utterly ridiculous names with zero reference. I might give the series a go another time, but even after two reads of Gardens of the Moon, I still didn't care for it.
Will you update us once you've read the rest of the books? Or atleast after you finish Deadhouse Gates
I’m planning on making reviews for each of them and doing updates in reading vlogs :)
@@ebnovels
for the love of god please get to the end of book 4 before/if you decide to pull the plug
its so dam good
Very insightful review! Thanks! :-)
Regardless of your opinion of this book and its many sequels there can be no doubt that these two guys have created one of the most amazing fantasy world's ever. the depth and scope of history is off the scale. Sure Erikson has his faults (who doesn't) but as far as high fantasy goes this is the benchmark that all should be judged against.
think i am on my 3rd reread of the entire series at the moment and it never gets old and every time i reread i discover bits i missed before and again im in awe of the scale and depth.
the fact that Erikson doesn't spoon feed the reader with huge info dumps is part of the charm, keep with the books as the further you go along the more the pieces fall into place. If you cant read between the lines and need the author to hold your hand as he explains things this isnt the series for you. im not saying you need that by the way!
Recently finished it.
It was definitely tedious and awkward read at the beginning.
Then I was finding the story interesting in Darujhistan.
Then towards the end, it got awkward again.
It is an interesting book, even when it has those weird moments.
Great review, I completely agree with pretty much everything you said. His vocabulary is such a huge selling point for me, first series I've read in a long time that I actually learned some new words from. He gets fixated on some words to a fault though. Look out for "detritus" in the coming books, and a good amount of "flotsam" and "ochre" too.
This is a great review, Elliot. Kudos.
I don't really agree on your perspective about the worldbuilding, particularly the magic, needing to have been more fleshed out more in GOTM, however. Maybe it's just because when I was reading it I always just accepted that this was, like you say, the first part, the beginning, of a much larger story and that the knowing would come later on. Or maybe it's just as I've gotten further along, and the magic has become a more intrinsic part of the worldbuilding (err and i mean that in a very literal sense) that I forgot that it was so opaque in the GOTM.
Completely agree with your take on the gender roles attitude as well. I didn't actually pick up on this until about Memories of Ice, but it's something that I also appreciate and helps to further delineate that world from ours (you know, if the floating mountain city wasn't enough).
I also strongly agree with you on the occasions that he can be so subtle sometimes and then wack you over the face with information the other time. I find it incredibly jarring when that happens, and it's my personal single biggest criticism of the series so far.
I think I remember hearing you say in another video that you're going to give at least the first few books in the series a try, so I'm looking forward to hearing your opinion on Deadhouse Gates, which is far better written book in terms of the things you criticised from GOTM.
i think this is gonna be my next book, and i'm legit scared. i've flipped through the first few pages (figuratively since i read on my ipad) and there are like five maps and several pages filled with character names. Oof. i'm also not a native speaker, so if you had trouble with the vocabulary, i think i might actually struggle hahaha.
@@BooksRebound i'm definitely going to check out your vid. i was thinking before that it might be useful to watch a channel for malazan like i did for wheel of time (daniel greene). but unlike wot i don't plan on binging all 20 something books in a few months hahaha. i want to take it slow, at least in the beginning. i'm reading elantris right now, but i think i might pick up gardens of the moon by next week.
I think you’d be alright! There was the occasional words I didn’t know, but I by no means think the story is littered with advanced vocabulary :) Also, the writing style is quite direct otherwise, so even if you don’t know what something means, you could probably use context to figure it out 😊
Books Rebound I can't wait, I've read it 3 times and I'm still discovering a lot of stuff.
Saída de emergência é uma shit não concordas?
@@BooksRebound
all 10 books 9 times?
holy shit... i thought i read it too many times.. started on GOTM in 2003 and since have finished all 10 just 3 times..
9 gold stars for you i guess!
So Glad I found this channel, sup from South Africa...its legit lonely here for fantasy/sci-fi book nerds. Also I'm currently reading Midnight Tides (book 5 i think) it gets easier Im not as lost anymore. I remember reading gardens of the moon and seeing a dramatis personae page and thought "pfft I'll never use this bulcrap"..now I'm like who the hell is this again let me check the
dramatis personae.
Malazan is better understood if you actually read the book rather than listen to it. It requires the full attention only real reading can bring, imo.
Do you not use goodreads? i wanna follow u on there
Not really, sorry!
Having not read ALL the books in the world, or been a lit major, the Malazan series was an incredible journey that was never hindered by any of the writing. Despite the arguments and what you saw as rough edges it was never a problem. There might be a word for it in the conventional sense ( Third Person Limited, Third Person Deep, Head-hopping) but... you can't make me dislike the story or the writing. The only thing I was miffed at any point about was when a new 'book' or chapter started and the character I had fell into's story was put on hold. But you get over it as you remember the character you wished would have continued is now the character in the chapter you are now reading.
This series isn't The Black Company. You would NOT be thinking the same things if it was poetry. I don't think any of the eccentricities of the writing make the story any worse at all.
Great analysis. This series is kicking my ass. I may have to put it off for a few years lol.
Malazan is my favorite serieres wayabove SOIAF I know Gardens of the Moon is hard to get into but it gets waaaaaaaaaaaay better
Agreed. Game of Thrones is much more tamed.
can you tell me what SOIAF means ? I haven't read any of Malazan books
Apostolis Triantafyllou he means a song of ice and fire (game of thrones)
Just started the book, 100 pages or so in and it's a big slogfest. Just when I was beginning to get used to some characters that were established and to "care" what they do, the guy shifts to something completely different that I find boring and annoying. It's just hard to read and care about what's going on. I'll continue only because of the recommendations that later things do pay off, but for now I paused and started reading Mistborn and I'm already 100 pages in on the same day I started, whereas it took me 2 weeks to read 100 pages of Gardens of the Moon.
As someone who absolutely loves the series I totally agree with you. The only reason I got through the first and second book was because a friend of mine said it was the best series ever.
The second book has stronger characters (COLTAINE) but since they’re all new you have to start over. Memories of ice is where the story really caught me on an emotional level and for me book 3, 4 and 5 are the strongest in the series. Memories of ice for the emotional impact, House of chains for its focus and Midnight tides because it’s so funny.
Just like you I feel that Gardens of the moon is needlessly obtuse when just a quick little comment could have kept the reader from becoming confused. For me one of the big things that caused confusion was at first is that warrens are both realms you can travel through and a source of magic.
Thanks for sharing that! It definitely gives me some encouragement. I was just trying to figure out when I’m going to read the next couple, and I felt a bit daunted tbh, so this really helps 😄
@@ebnovels Yeah that's how I felt too. If my friend hadn't been so adamant about the series being so good I'm not sure I would've finished Gardens of the moon, let alone continuing to read the series. Things that start to stand out as you read on is that, at least to me, he's the gold standard when it comes to describing larger battles. One part of the second book is this long outdrawn campaign called the chain of dogs and for me that's one of the areas where his writing really shines. After reading Erikson I really started to pick up on when writers either were bad at describing what's happening in a larger battle or (God forbid) might not actually know what's happening themselves (looking at you R Scott Bakker).
If you can push through Deadhouse gates (and it was a bit of a push for me) then Memories of ice is where it pays off. The emotional impact of Memories of ice can't be overstated, at least not for me. It's still a crier for me when rereading it.
Another thing that really floored me is how funny Midnight tides is. Overall Erikson is dark and the man loves his tragedies but Tehol and Bugg are absolutely amazing. I reread that book regularly just reading their parts because it's this absurd farce playing out in an otherwise rather dark story. Those two are the Monty Python of Malazan. And at least to me, there's no hints before Midnight tides that the guy's actually funny in any way or knows how to write funny.
Wow you read Vagabond :) Have you read Slam Dunk as well?
There's a difference if you have a difficult and stressful job with a long working day (or whatever occupies you) or not. Unfortunately. Book was too exhausting for me. I quit reading it.
This is by far the on the lower use of books in the series. Will you continue to read the rest?
Yes! I already started Deadhouse Gates :D
Elliot Brooks glad to hear :) I binged books 2-5. The magic system is expounded upon and clarified somewhat more but there is still ambiguity in that it isn’t a Sanderson-like ultra-defined system (more like a Harry Potter type of system) but is expansive. The ploys and plots gods play on/with humankind as well as the rest of the world are really enjoyable! Especially, when humankind and others see differently or have other plans of their own, knowingly or unknowingly ;)
With such a big series, that has such a bad reputation for an inaccessible first book, doing a rewrite of the relevant events in the first book might be worth it.
This was a really nice review of the book but as alot of the others in the comments have pointed out, GoTM is the weakest of the series. I wanted to touch upon your points about the magic system and how its rules didnt seem defined or clearly displayed and this is definitely an intentional aspect of the series. we the readers arent aware of how the magic system works at first in the same way that many of the characters themselves do not know how it works. like with many other aspects of the series you eventually learn about the many elements of this world alongside the characters although its never outright explained to you, its up to the reader to piece things together themselves as if you were in the story yourself. in the end even thsoe whove read the books multiple times cannot admit to truely understanding how everything works as you seem to learn something new each time or interpret something differently each time you read it. This is why rereads are so common for this series, all this creates a sense of a lifelike world with real history that is often ambiguous and leads to varying viewpoints and beliefs. This series treats you like a simple spectator, you are given no exposition or background narration you are forced to learn through your own experience. The idea of how history remembers things is a huge theme in the rest of the series so much so that the final line in the final book of the series is dedicated entirely to this.
I don't think I'd have as big a problem as I do, if the Character POVs didn't switch between two or three characters in the same chapter. Especially in the first book. Give a character their own chapter to establish them, and start to switch between them later. After we're connected and understand who they are. I'm only on the first book and this is my biggest hurdle getting through it.
This is my favourite high-fantasy series, but I see the validity of many points you make. I would add, that the culture later on becomes really fleshed out, and quite uniqely, due to Erikson's anthropological and archeological background. However, the first 1-3 books are certainly not the best of the series, so it is definitely hard to get into, but once you do, it istruly something else. I just realized that I want to reread the whole series, now, that the core story is complete.
Wow. You are brilliant. Great memory for details.
Just starting it now , I'm going to start bing reading the series
PLS, just pls start with the second book. Its what started to convince me to get invested into the series. SE gets better and better. For me GotM is the least best book of him. Everything else is so amazing, pls continue!
Gotm is one of my favorites....
Gardens of the Moon is a slog, but the next 9 books are awesome. When you add in the Ian Esselmont books, and the two prequel series, it's by far my favourite fictional world.