Malazan might be everything I want from fantasy | Gardens of the Moon Review (No Spoilers)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- If anyone is intimidated by Malazan Book of the Fallen, I hope this video might encourage you to break down that barrier, and give it a go.
It may not be as difficult as you think...
Channels Mentioned:
@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy
@ACriticalDragon
@thefantasynuttwork
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Yolanda: / yolandacarhell
Carlos: / carlos-day-pomar
We have a new discord with some fellow Booktubers of the Class of '23:
/ discord - บันเทิง
Thank you for your gracious review. Yours may be the first one to pick up on the influences of other genres in the approach I took for Gardens of the Moon in particular. I was a reader of Ludlum, Clancy, King, Chesterton (The Man who was Thursday), Dumas, George MacDonald Fraser (Flashman), etc etc. And SF, of course. Along with all the more regular classics of the canon. All that being said, I had fun writing the novel and hopefully that peaks through every now and then. There's more than a few sly winks to the reader, I guess, especially the reader well-versed in fantasy tropes. For Deadhouse Gates, you can think Anabasis (Xenophon) along with the first Flashman novel (eponymously named) which recounts the British retreat from Kabul, and the Long March, the pursuit of the Gros Ventre, and so on. It never occurred to me that techniques and structures from outside the fantasy genre were verboten. Who knew? I'm looking forward to your comments on the rest of the books (and hoping you stick around for them!). Cheers, SE
Speak of the devil... Howeya 😉
Thanks to you for the comment, that's just made my week. You've gotten me about as excited for a new set of books as I have been in a while. So appreciate that first and foremost.
Love that you mention Ludlum, Clancy (is that why your books are so long? 😉) and King, all authors I grew up with too. I grew up with whatever was scattered around the many shelves in my childhood home. Many of them crime/political thrillers, classics or historical fiction.
You've also given me some great ones to check out. I've actually never read Chesterton!
Currently walking the Chain of Dogs.
Cheers Steve!
Welcome to what could possibly become the greatest literary journey of your life.
Phenomenal 🍻 Cheers to you for being one of the biggest influences on me taking the plunge!
...100000000000% agree. This series changed me as a human and as a reader
On my fourth read lol
This might be the best spoiler free review of GOTM on the platform, you did it man, this was absolutely fantastic. You managed to put in words so many of my feelings and musings on this novel. Now you must walk the Chain of Dogs!!
Hvala moj brat!
Walking the Chain of Dogs as we speak
Truest Malazan quite of 2024 so far 00:50 "it might be everything I want in fantasy"
It doesn't always hit for every reader but when it does it hits you like a dragon.
I felt that 🐉
@@storytoob enjoy your journey, I'm a mega fan of the series with 4 full read-thrus and I personally think it is a masterpiece of Literature regardless of genre. And Erikson is 100% absolute in his trust in the reader to get what they're supposed to and there isn't a sentence in any of the main 10 books that dumbed down. For a certain reader that is thrilling, seems like you might be in that space.
And his imagination will blast your soul into a Warren if wonder.
Hahah fantastic! Blast me into all the warrens please Stevie
I have also got Malazan on my enormous TBR. It sounds amazing. I've been searching for a great Fantasy series that I'll love as much as I love ASoIaF. To be the Dark Souls video games in a book - books that are going to really make me think, nut stuff out with the huge Lore, deep world-building, incredible characters I'll fall in love with/hate with a passion, and not hold my hand every second.
I love G.R.R.M, Joe Abercrombie & Sapowski the most. Was going to try The Prince of Nothing by Scott Bakker, but reading many comments about the gratuitous sexual violence/weird sex really put me off. I hope that Malazan hits me like a dragon! XD 🐉
Loved your thoughts. You caught on a lot of things which many new readers struggle with, and that has to do with the structure. It takes time to adjust to this new structure of storytelling. I just want to hear your thoughts once you finish Deadhouse Gates.
Hey! Cheers Sourav! DHG well underway haha
You are in for an absolute treat, this series just continues to get better and better as it goes along.
Yay! Thanks for watching!
You nailed it. Best First Time Reader review I've ever seen. Malazan is just so cool. Once it grabs you, there is no turning back.
I am chained.
Thank you!
You have un-intimidated me.
Yay! Mission accomplished
I really enjoyed listening to your points. Thanks for such a great video. I hope that you enjoy the rest of the novels as much.
Another benefit to reading Malazan, watching all that glorious spoiler filled content with you and Philip (the best Malazan duo imo!), and Erikson and Esslemont of course!
Cheers AP! Thanks to you as well for all the enjoyable insights you bring, Malazan or otherwise.
@thatsci-firogue I can go on unlocking all this goodness 😀
3:30 THIS! I 100% agree. A lot of people recommend chapter-recaps and wikis and all kinds of outside material. And if you want to do that, that is fine, but I found myself enjoying the ride more by just going along with it, trusting that things will clear up later, or on a re-read. Following the main movements (?, it feels wrong to call it a "main plot") is something that you pick up quickly imo and if you miss some obscure reference here and there, who cares? That is just additional flavor for "new game plus".
Couldn't agree with you more!
Buckling of swashes 😂 Your enthusiasm is compelling. I have Gardens of the Moon on my TBR and shelf, and I shall read it, eventually. Time! Liveship Traders first.
Does it buckle swashes, or do the swashes buckle? Either way Vero, I think you might enjoy it.
Enjoy Liveship!
Loved this review-I feel like I really gained insight into the book and what it’s doing, and it’s getting me excited to reread it. Man I think you’re gonna love the rest of the series so much.
Super excited about em man!
Fantastic! I love your thoughts on this. Looking forward to future takes on the rest of the series.
Thanks a lot!
One of the best spoiler free reviews of this book and now I'm so hyped to finally dive into this series!
Oh thanks so much! Mission accomplished!
Hvala ❤️
DO IT!
I had similar reqction to the Gardens. You will love the whole series, guaranteed. It's a mileston in fantasy lit, this one here. Enjoy the ride.
Thanks! Can't wait for the rest of the books! Currently halfway through Memories of Ice
I might be the only person but Gardens of the Moon is actually my favorite book out of all of them.
Haha cool! It was extremely fun!
Just finished Deadhouse Gates and while I think it's a better book, I enjoyed certain aspects of GotM more
Erikson regularly makes me laugh out loud. Out loud! I’m about to start book 7 and loved it all so far.
I hear Bonehunters is hilarious!
Midnight tides is hilarious too 😂
This is an exceptional review on an exceptional book. Excellent job Carlos. There is so much in the twittesphere regarding this series that it can be overwhelming for some. This is a perfect review for those thinking about jumping into this series. Excellent job man.
Thanks a lot Dan! ❤️ Onto DHG
Great review! I can't wait to hear your thoughts on my favorite book in the series, Deadhouse Gates.
I think you being "well read" in different genres really helps with the on-boarding in Gardens of the Moon. I also really like how you talked about the book being so fun and epic. Most people don't mention that but I was sold on the series as soon the chaos puppet showed up 😎
Yep I certainly didn't have the impression that it would be as enjoyable and entertaining as it was!
I was laughing here and there all through the first 4, but it wasnt til book 5 that I realized Erikson is actually hilarious and his humor is his greatest strength for me. He is usually quite restrained with it - it is largely a dour and serious series, so when he interjects with moments of levity it makes the jokes land harder then, and the tears flow harder later.
Fantastic! That's great to know!
yea!!!!
I so love love love these books. My favorite ever! My husband is going to start them soon. Hope I can explain his questions lol
I just started my Malazan journey this month and ended up finishing Gardens about a week ago and I gotta say I couldn't agree more! I was super intimidated by the series and felt like I wasn't going to understand anything at all and went into the series almost over prepared if that makes sense and it turns out even myself (not the smartest reader) can follow what's happening and keep track of the general gist of what's happening and I had a great time doing it!
That's amazing to hear! Honestly I think just about anyone can read it... And especially those not drowning themselves in typical fantasy. It could potentially appeal to them more
@@storytoob I think it would be a bit overwhelming for someone's first time reading some epic fantasy but I'd say if you've read some Sanderson or Martin, I think you'll be fine
I can think of several people I know who don't read fantasy but read other things like literary fiction or crime fiction that would love it!
What I love about Malazan is everything that can happen, will probably happen lol happy to see you enjoyed it so much! Hope you continue to enjoy it. Deadhouse Gates is a personal favorite....so don't say anything bad about it.
Deadhouse Gates sucks!!!! 😝
@@storytoob Cancelled!!!! 👿
It just shows how much range the books have that DHG is my least favorite and it's other people's favorite.
I’ve read all of MBotF (twice) and I can confidently say you nailed this book! Better than 99% of first time readers, including me. Idk if you’ve seen the DLC Bookclub videos for Malazan but I always tell them they’re the target audience for Malazan and I’m now expanding that to you - this is your series 😍
Regardless of most people not hyping this one up as much as you, I promise you it is in fact the worst in the series 😂 so prepare yourself!! You’ve begun an epic journey you’ll never forget. Can’t wait for you to finish walking the Chain of Dogs! Then you’ll truly be one of us 😁
Hahaha thanks man! Really excited about these books, and so happy to see such a cool response from other readers on this video. Y'all are so nice 😂
Currently walking the Chain of Dogs as we speak! About 400 pages left (in my edition) of DHG.
And yesss I've since heard of the podcast. Will definitely give that a watch. I feel like I've unlocked a load of TH-cam content haha
@@storytoob hell yeah!! So much content for you. I know you’ve mentioned AP and Philip, they’re definitely first and foremost. But then DLC bookclub, Iskar Jarak, Ruthan Badd, Quick Jen, Johanna, Claudia Ivanov, Jimmy Nutts, Allen (Library of Allenxandria)… obviously the list goes on 😂 enjoy!!
I've read MBotF, its my favorite series, and i think you cut to the heart of why Gardens of the Moon is actually great - and more people should read it. Great job highlighting the special qualities of this book, there are so many, I wish a million readers could hear your points. It IS fun and hilarious, its also refreshingly different but also ticks so many boxes from traditional fantasy and sword and sorcery. This is like the Platonic ideal of a review of Gardens of the Moon, in terms if rendering it digestible and lowering the intimidation factor that some unfortunately get disuaded by. I'll be subscribing and checking out your future vids, good luck on the journey, you're about to embark on something special!
Hey there! Thanks a lot that's very kind!
It really is a fun book. I also recently finished Deadhouse Gates, different but also great, and am now roughly 300 pages into Memories of Ice and it's a wonderful blend of the qualities of both.
Happy to have you around!
Glad you enjoyed this Carlos! I really did, and eventually I’ll be picking up Memories of Ice again to finish it.
Oh nice! How are you finding it?
@@storytoob well I like what I read of Memories of Ice, but I’m going to have to start over because I was so burned out after Deadhouse Gates lol.
They are big boys 😀
@@storytoob yeah they are lol. And I didn’t enjoy Deadhouse Gates hardly at all. Almost DNFd it lol.
Seemless review, I felt much the same. Great job, Carlos 🤘🏽
Cheers Usman! Which book are you on now?
@@storytoob wrapped up Memories of Ice and will start House of Chains soon
Hell yeah! The “confusing” bits were more intriguing to me which kept me hooked. If more booktubers talked about how it isn’t as difficult as people make it out to be, I would have started it a long time ago. Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on Deadhouse Gates! It is one of the most incredible books I’ve ever read.
Totally agree! But I just told myself those aspects are no different to reading a complex spy/political thriller with a lot of moving parts to the scheme. Which I'm pretty used to. Zig zagging with bite size chunks of unfolding plot instead of going from point A to point B.
Can't wait man!
Glad you liked GotM. Malazan is awesome. I agree that it isn't necessary to understand everything that's going on. I remember being completely lost when I started, but I was totally along for the ride.
I so want a new book obsession 😢 This was not it, but I still want to love it, I think I will read it again. There’s so much potential here I fell in love with the writing style from the very first page story just didn’t grab me even though I struggled through the end. I think you just convinced me to try again. ❤️
Oh, and your accent, it’s a pleasure listening to you!
That's absolutely understandable! You might be in the general consensus even with the first book, I just happened to love all of it.
But I'm a good chunk into the second and the writing style has even improved, but also the story is almost a totally new one.
Could be worth another go and continuing on, but also no need to force it if it isn't working!
And thank you haha 😆
Alright, I'm convinced, I'll read Gardens of the Moon this year. I've put it off for so many years, but this was a damn good review. Well done, sir.
Many thanks my friend!
just popped up on my feed, and boy am I glad! I listened to Gardens of the Moon, and I think that was a mistake. I loved what I could grasp, but I think this one deserves a physical read. So thank you for that push, and excited to follow along with you!
Hello! That's great to hear, and yeah I can't honestly imagine listening to this... Not that I'm great with audiobooks anyway.
Happy to have you around!
Oh yeah. I wouldn’t be able to understand the books on audio. I’m more of a visual person but yeah it’s fun to research online as you go 😃
Nice. Glad you loved it. The best is yet to come. Its my favourite completed Fantasy series. From my experience the difficulty is overblown and I'm an eejit 😅
You are right, the entertainment factor is often overlooked / not discussed as much as it should.
I appreciate that Erikson refuses to hold my hand and actually treats the reader like an adult, which I don't get from more popular, more beloved authors *cough* Brandon Sanderson *cough*.
GotM is a lot of fun, and it is one of my least favourites in the series.
Yeeeah I haven't really been this excited about a new series for a long time. Everyone is saying that it's a great sign if I liked GotM so much.. We'll see how I get on this year, and how many of them I read.
I do love that Erikson doesn't talk down to me at all. A trait I find all too common in not only fantasy, but many modern books
@@storytoob I wouldn't worry about how many you can read in a year. Took me nearly two years.
You might appreciate the Lonesome Dove-like “cattle” drive in book two…
On that right now! Loving it
I absolutely love GotM. Its so underrated. Great review, would love to see your take on Deadhouse Gates.
Cheers Shane!
Well, give us just a couple of weeks, currently on the journey through Raraku haha
Scholars will be discussing the Malazan Book of the Fallen hundreds of years from now(like Shakespeare).
Subbed!
BTW I was reading this series as it was being published at about book 5. Nobody that I recommend this book to finished GotM.
It is not accessible to most readers.
Cheers
haha they will indeed! Thank you so much!
Hey sir, I watch just about all the Malazan stuff on TH-cam, but I don't always hit that subscribe button and I'm definitely subscribing to your channel. Loved your thoughts. Made me really want to reread Gardens. And is it wrong that the casual profanity endeared me even more to you? Lol I'm usually missing that from my Booktubers 😂
Hello there! Oh that's really nice, cheers! Delighted to have you around. Hope to see you in the comments of the rest of the Malazan vids.
And, asking an Irish/Spanish man if liking casual profanity is wrong is like asking a bear if he shits in the woods 🤣 in all seriousness, half the time I don't notice I'm doing it, it's just second nature around here haha
Malazan sounds amazing! I've been looking for a Fantasy to give me 'Dark Souls' in a book. It's been so hard lol. I want something that will engross me, pull me into a deep chasm of Lore, great characters and world-building, but not hold my hand every 3 seconds to TELL me the story.
Erikson is/was an archaeologist, and I don't mind digging to peel back those layers.
Hey there!
By what you're saying, I'd be pretty confident in you liking it a lot! So much to sink your fantasy teeth into.
Well into Book 3 now and I think he might be on par with GRRM (although I do prefer George's characters for the most part)
@@storytoob G.R.R.M is my favourite, and I also am loving Joe Abercrombie. If Steven is on-par with G.R.R.M, and from what you say about not being spoon-fed, I think I'll like Malazan!
Have been looking forward to reading 'more challenging' books like Malazan, the Book of the New Sun (Gene Wolfe), the Three Body Problem, and War and Peace 🙂
PS: this was a great video, and you have a new sub. Great bookcases, too!📚
Yay thank you so much!
While I haven't read War and Peace yet, I find some of Tolstoy's other writing very accessible, more so than Dostoevsky who I'd say is more challenging for sure.
But War and Peace is looooooooong, it's on my list eventually too.
@@storytoob I just bought the Penguin Russians edition of War and Peace & Anna Karenina (my favourite!) which are lovely and floppy XD
Now I have a challenge of finding the Malazan books that all match in size hahahaha (or wish to be lucky enough to get the Broken Binding set!)
The way I like to describe the writing in Malazan is that it's the exact opposite of the writing in TV police procedurals like Law and Order where you have two grizzled, worn down detectives talking and one says, "We need a warrant!" and the other says, "But we can't get one because we don't have enough probable cause, and we need to get more evidence in order to have probable cause, and then we can call a judge and get a warrant!" That is not how two experienced homicide detectives would actually talk to each other, but it's obviously all handholding for the audience who might not know about how warrants work. Malazan doesn't do any of that. It's much more like the show The Wire where the two detectives just exchange an exhausted glare at each other and say, "Aw shit..." and get back to work. You might not know exactly what's going on, but you can gather the main feeling from the clues and what is expressed.
1000% agree!
The Wire is a great shout.. brilliant comparison.
It can of course get chaotic in its structure sometimes, and that can absolutely not be to someone's taste, but the scene to scene dialogue and atmosphere are great. Erikson is also not completely devoid of exposition, but I think he hides it better
I found it to be less "hard" than I was expecting. While I'm enjoying Deadhouse Gates a lot, for some reason I'm finding it harder to keep track of everyone in that book. But that's probably a me thing.
I've read Erikson describing this as postmodern fantasy and it definitely fits.
I really enjoyed this book! I’m wanting to return.
Sounds like another TBR list shot to hell. 😅
And some people are even blue.
What TBR? 😜
This got a chuckle out of me
I loved GoTM too. Hot take: *whispers* even more than DHG 😮 although mappo and icarium still my favorite duo so far
Edit: okay Tehol and Bugg might actually be my favorite but for completely different reason 😂 if you know you know
I agree completely! GotM I like more than DHG, but Mappo and Icarium are still possibly my favourite duo
@@storytoob nice! Ya GotM has that fun factor whereas DHG is just depressing lol 😂
Can't wait for you to get to Midnight Tides and Bonehunters. The humor in those books is unbelievably good. Bonehunters got some good gallows humor. Memories of Ice, though, goes real crazy with its magic. Erikson and Esslemont's imagination is insane
That's great to know! I'm super excited about the series as a whole
Those are my top 2 favourite books in the series!
How are the Esslemont books? (if you guys have read those ofc)
@@storytoob I've only read Night of Knives which I really enjoyed. I won't say much but let's just say it something I've never seen in Fantasy before and it's such a ridiculously simple thing I'm shocked it doesn't happen more often.
@@storytoob I'm probably going to wait until Esslemont's prequel series is finished before I get to that one but I'm going to be folding his Novels of the Malazan Empire into my Book of the Fallen re-read. I'm not 100% when I'll do that but it definitely won't be happening until I'm at least finished with RotE.
Favorite character? Mine has to be Fiddler and quick Ben
KRUPPE! 😂
@@storytoob haha definitely! 😆
LFG!!!!! ❤
LFG!! ❤️
I picked it up a few weeks ago. And it's been a slog. I don't really care for the magic system. It's a physics engine magic system, and i like linguistic magic. The plot structure makes the story being told rather obvious. Not predictable, obvious. Meaning that where as i can't tell you what's going to happen next, i can tell you what won't. The reliance on power structure analysis makes the dialog come across as rather "thin." Humans aren't as simple as all that. And I've found the theme to be simple and silly. Compassion sounds great until you read about its adapted function, and you realize it's often not.
But whatever. I suppose I'll try reading until book 3 or so when most people say it gets good. It's just so far it's had all the problems common in post-modern writing, and the fantistical elements really haven't carried it for me.
Hey there!
I don't really think it's much of a "magic system" at all to begin with. There's just magic.
I can understand the criticism of dialogue when framed against the theme of power structure, but I still found it interesting. Not that it was a major focus either... I think ultimately I just had a lot of fun with this particular one.
I certainly don't think Erikson paints his characters, human or not, as simple. I thought it was quite the opposite, especially when you compare it to other fantasy
What made you think they seemed simple compared to real people?
Cheers for commenting by the way! I do think these will be books worth discussing
Gardens of the Moon is widely considered as the worst book in the series. It was written 10 years befor the others, written as a screenplay first and then converted to a book. The dialogues in this book are stunted a bit, and the characterization is not very deep. Same with themes.
Its in Book 2 where there will be a large jump in quality regarding these. After finishing book 2, if you still hate it, there's no need to read 3, its fine. Book 3 is needed for those who liked book 2 to some extent but still unsure.
@@storytoobWell, for one thing, they're competing in only one status game. All the dialog seems like the characters are competing in a dominance game. And little too pure of a dominance game. The skills and moral games are mostly left off to the side, or just seen as expressions of the dominance game. It's like a guitar with only one string. I'm sure a really skilled person can make great music with that. But a competent person can make better music with a whole guitar.
I got to about chapter 10, and was like, What the hell am I reading? So I went to the youtube's and I got this great video where the guy said to read chapters summaries from Tor. So i started again. That helped a lot. I knew where I was, I knew who was talking, I knew what was going on, for the most part. It just got too much like homework and I didn't get back to chapter 10. I need to take a couple week's regroup and start again.
Haha I understand the need or urge to want to regain control of the story and really get your bearings... But it does require a bit of trust that you'll get there eventually.
Hope you pick it back up and enjoy!