8-ish Popular Misconceptions about the Malazan Book of the Fallen - Is the series for you?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มิ.ย. 2024
- Pronounce it how you will, people make a lot of claims about the Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson, and very few of them are accurate. A downside to social media and the modern focus on bumper sticker criticism is that we tend to label things without understanding what the labels entail. So I have addressed a few of the major comments about, and misconceptions surrounding, MBotF and try to unpack them a little so that you can decide if it is a series for you.
Intro and Music by Professor Trip.
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I’m currently 90% through Dust of Dreams and my favorite thing about this series is those “lightbulb” moments that the indirect writing style gives you. Those moments when you realize that this mysterious character you’re seeing is in fact someone you know a lot about from details you’ve picked up along the way, making you feel like that “Leonardo DiCaprio pointing” meme. Malazan does this over and over again. It rewards you for paying attention, a lot like a good puzzle game does.
That is such a fantastic feeling. It is difficult to beat.
Wait till you read ther entire books for the 2nd time 😉
Huh. You’re very persuasive(for a diabolically nefarious Nemesis). I think I’ll give the series a try.
Huh. So are you the nefariously diabolical nemesis? Dang, I can never remember...
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd It's too evident who the nefarious one is . . . Didn't you see Professor Fireballs twirling his mustache in the video?
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy So he's nefarious and you're diabolical, got it!
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd Ugh . . .
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy 😂😂😂
I enjoyed Gardens of the Moon so much. That book made me fall in love with reading again. :)
That is great to hear. Reading is such a pleasure. I am glad that you enjoyed the book.
I'm just going to refer potential readers to this video from now on! You were thorough and precise on every point. I admire you so much, A.P.!
Please do so. It saved me from selling my books without reading them.
Hi Johanna, I am glad that you think it is worth sharing. Thanks for watching.
AP's video seemed very well time for me for sure!
Only partway through but wanted to comment before I forgot. I LOVE your analogy a set of novels about WW2 where it focuses on the different theatres. That's exactly what Malazan is like and part of the reason I like them so much. It's also how I prefer my history books or narratives to be written - topically and locally over strict chronologically.
This is great, AP. And I agree that 'writing is rough' is compared to Erikson's work as a whole (when people say that). I feel the same way about Pratchett, Parker, and Abraham, where even if it's not my favorite of their work, a Pratchett book I like less is still better than much of what I read!
Sir Terry Pratchett is one of my favourite authors. Admittedly I like a lot of the earlier Discworld books more than the later, but I respect the hell out of his writing, his imagination, and his brilliance. He is still sorely missed.
@@ACriticalDragon Yes, so missed! I think I'm the biggest fan of Pratchett's 'Middle Period' I guess? I like most of the ones from like 90s, I think, more than the ones that came after.
Have you read any of his non-DW work like Nation?
Yup, I used to read anything even vaguely associated with him. So almost everything he published up to Monstrous Regiment I think I read. I might have missed one or two.
I've read these books 4x through. I've read all of WoT, all of Brandon Sanderson, all of Tolkien, and Malazan Book of Fallen is just the pinnacle for me, yet I have never met a single person who has read it.
Thanks to the internet we now have access to fans from all over the world. Thank you for watching, and thank you for joining in on the conversation.
@@ACriticalDragon Thank you for paying this series lip-service, anyone who makes it through will not regret it!
Seeing how many people feel trepidation at even picking this up, I feel sort of fortunate that I read the series in a vacuum. I was just listening to a band called Caladan Brood, and I read in a review that the album was based on some books, so on a whim I picked up Gardens of the Moon and just kept going. Looking back, the best way I can describe the experience is that the books _expected more_ of me than any other fantasy series I've read. In expecting me to hit the ground running and keep up, the series trained me to do just that. Every time I got comfortable, it was time to change and grow yet again. Prospective readers who feel intimidated shouldn't underestimate themselves - Erikson certainly doesn't. You might be surprised at just how much you can handle, and how rewarded you are by it.
Also, spot on about the re-read being a totally different experience but not at all necessary to appreciate it! On the re-read (3 years later), I had my notepad ready to jot down all my questions about the strange & confusing things, only to be surprised that I hardly needed it.
Bizarrely while I am aware of the band, I have never heard any of their music.
@@ACriticalDragon They're an acquired taste, even moreso than the books. If nothing else you might enjoy reading the lyrics.
It is so sad that CD only made one album. It is great I fell in love with it immediatly.
Nice video! What I find interesting is how some of these prejudices or claims come from detractors of the series while others come from the fandom and are meant as praise but still manage to deter potential readers. I wouldn't even call the latter deliberate gatekeeping although that also exists but just an interesting social dynamic.
Reading some of the reviews you can't tell if the reader liked or disliked the books as the reasons are often the same.
Don't I know it? I had joined a fantasy group at some point and there were a handful of people there who seemed to have dedicated their life's purpose to denigrate the Malazan books. I have never seen anyone hate a book this much. I tried to engage with them, to find out why they hated it and to see if maybe I can shed some light on it. But they managed to turn everything I said into an attack against them, and boy, was I on my very best behavior! :))) So I eventually did the reasonable thing and I gave up trying. But yes, I get how things we see as positive are seen by others as criticism. But I think that also comes from the refusal of such people to understand that there is an alternative point of view. I can enjoy a complicated, heavy, dense book just as much as a simple, straight forward, easy one. And there is no shame neither in one nor in the other. But for those who choose to see a lack of the ability or preference to enjoy something dense as a finger pointed at their intellect, any attempt to talk about it can feel like an insult. And that's a shame.
@@claudiaiovanovici7569 "into an attack against them" That's their only defense. They can't debate the merits of their opinions, because there ARE no merits, only feelings. So they have to try to frame you as a hateful bigot who doesn't want to discuss the issues. Projection at its finest. I find it funny that so many people nowadays truly believe their own lies, yet claim to be intellectuals.
As someone who is starting this series soon, this is very helpful!! Thanks for the insights.
You are very welcome. I hope that you enjoy the books as much as I do.
I'm halfway through Dust of Dreams right now, and this video is spot on. I think instead of "the series doesn't get going until X," the feeling I had was "I didn't feel like a competent reader until X." But that's not a bad thing - just like in life, if you're at a new job or among a new group of friends, there's a lot of history and context that you're not going to understand, that only time and experience in this environment will reveal. More than any other series, I feel like a participant in this story, and while I did have a hard time understanding everything that was going on from page 1, it was the mystery and the hints of larger context that kept me going. And now that I'm racing towards the finish line, I can't wait for the re-read.
There is a lot of wanting to burn through vs. having to just put it down for a few minutes to digest as you get closer to the end.
That is one of the great strengths of this approach, it can end up feeling incredibly immersive. On the other hand, it can be harder to get into and require more effort and patience on the part of the reader.
I got into a huge discussion about SA in novels with a friend of mine. I ended up in a long rant about how GRRM is too voyeuristic in his writing style and kept comparing it to Erikson's work. Erikson is completely different in the way he handles difficult matters and I always tell people that he does the work after. He really goes into the ramifications and the effects on the victim rather than just a 'look at this! look at how horrible this is!' scene. I've sent this video to that friend, hahaha!
Beautiful video - can't wait to finish this entire series. I'm on Reaper's Gale, but I keep thinking about rereading from the beginning now that I understand his writing style more. I can't decide!
That is wonderful to hear. SA is a very difficult and emotive subject to broach and include in any narrative, and I know that a personal response to it will also be highly individual. But I hope that the intent behind it in Erikson's writing gets across. It might not work for all readers, success is never guaranteed, but I do appreciate that he tries.
This is an exceptional video A.P.! I was one of those potential readers intially put off by some of the misconceptions you have outlined here! But people such as you convinced me to give the series a chance, and I am so happy I listened to you all! I will tell my friends who are also considering Malazan but are intimidated because of these same misconceptions you speak of, to watch this video. Thank you so much for making it! Doubtless, it is going to help a lot of readers struggling with Malazan-phobia take the plunge!
I never want to dictate to people, so I hope people see this in that light. Always good to hear from you, my friend.
Looking at you Karsa... hated him at first because of what he did, then as I came to see his character arc... He is now one of my favorite characters in literature.
Great video. Well said.
I came across Gardens of the Moon three years ago while looking for another historical fiction. I would had never before considered reading fantasy, but for some inexplicable reason I started to read the Chapter one excerpt on Amazon. From the first paragraph onward I was hooked. I had no idea that fantasy could be written like this and this well. There was not a wasted sentence or word.
Gardens was the first book in which I could read two pages - or even just two paragraphs - and then spend minutes afterwards thinking about what I had just read. No other book has ever had that effect on me.
Needless to say I completed all ten books as well as the two Kharkanas books. I have been reading fantasy ever since.
That is great to hear. I am glad that you enjoyed it.
What other fantasy series have you been reading?
@@IntrusiveThot420 I've read almost all of Guy Gavriel Kay's books and haven't read one I didn't like and most are now personal favourites. Also Tad Williams - Memory, Sorrow and Thorn
, Richard Nell - Ash and Sand Trilogy, Robin Hobb - The Liveship Traders Trilogy.
Because I found fantasy, I also found a new favourite historical fiction A Dream of Eagles / The Camulod Chronicles (US) by Jack Whyte. It's the story of Camelot told in a historical sense. A series I would not have even looked at before finding Gardens due to its reference to King Arthur and Amazon incorrectly categorizing it as fantasy - which it is not. Bought The Cicero Trilogy by Robert Harris because of that series as well.
@@Canoe64 thanks for the recommendations!
@@IntrusiveThot420
Here is is a longer list of the fantasy books I have found which I personally liked.
1. Guy Gavriel Kay - The Sarantine Mosaic & Under Heaven
2. Steven Erikson - Malazan Book of the Fallen
3. Tad Williams - Memory, Sorrow and Thorn
4. Richard Nell - Ash and Sand Trilogy
5. China Miéville - Perdido Street Station
6. Robin Hobb - The Liveship Traders Trilogy
7. Joe Abercrombie - A little Hatred
8. Scott Oden - Grimnir Series
9. Ian Esslemont - Path to Ascendancy
10. Alex Pheby - Mordew
11. R. Scott Bakker - Prince of Nothing
12. Matthew Ward - Legacy Trilogy Book 1 & 2
13. Oliver Pötzsch - The Master’s Apprentice
14. P. Djèlí Clark - A Dead Djinn in Cairo
15. Adrian Tchaikovsky - Empire in Black and Gold
16. Paul Kearney - The Monarchies of God
17. Patrick Rothfuss - The Name of the Wind
18. Scott Lynch - Lies of Locke Lamora
Currently reading Gardens of the Moon, thoroughly enjoying it and I wanted to watch some videos because a video on The Black Company (which I couldn’t finish, it was bad) discussed the difficulties of this series. As I was reading it, I was trying to find “difficulty” or reasons as to why someone would be turned off by this series. What this just confirms to me is that people within this reading sphere wants things laid out for them to remove any reason for interactions and debates on differences of perspectives and opinions 😂 “I don’t like this series because it means I’ll have to engage in conversation about it”
Talking about books, and discussing different ways of interpreting the scenes??? No one could enjoy that. 😂😂😂😂
I really want to finish the series, and this is a great overview! I've previously gotten as far as The Bonehunters and then petered out as I lost my grasp on everything going on (started a new job, moved, and my concentration level for reading went way down). I did truly love the world-building, characters, and basically all of the micro-plots (short stories, like you said). But (what I felt was) a lack of focus on the 'macro-plot' really burned me out at that time. Sounds like I just need to trust Erikson and push through!
Honestly, there is some slog through parts of Toll the Hounds and Dust of Dreams, but the pay-off of the last three books is fantastic. If you’re this far in, when you have time, it is absolutely worth finishing the series.
Hi Trent, it is a common complaint that the end goal and overarching narrative is not 'visible', so it is a very common feeling. I hope that you end up enjoying it.
I’m planing to start this series very soon.
This video was enormously helpful.
Thank you!
Great video. Addressing the most common misconceptions is something that I wish more people would approach objectively
A.P., I am going to preface what I am going to say with this fact. I own all 10 books and they have been sitting on my shelf for at least a year. I have had my doubts about whether or not I made a mistake buying this series. BUT, this video is exactly what I have been waiting for. This video is truly a must see for all who are interested in reading this series. Thank you for this breakdown of the misconceptions that serve as a hindrance to many considering this series. I don’t think anyone could have put this better than you have. Thanks for saving me from making the mistake of selling these books. You’re the best A.P. 🤓
I am so pleased. Please let me know how you get on. And, if it is not the series for you, then don't worry or stress. There is always another author, another book, another series. We all love different things, and celebrating them is what brings us together as a community.
Great points man! Thats what i needed to underatand what is the love hate relationship we hear about the series.
Great video as always! I came to the series knowing next to nothing about it - I wanted a long, completed fantasy series, and one that had meddling Gods to nurse a book hangover I had from reading N.K.Jemisin's Inheritance trilogy. Malazan fit the bill in both respects. In many ways I'm glad I started with so little information because I was able to make up my own mind about the series, and so am often stumped when I hear these err… criticisms leveled at it. To read/listen to reviews that say characterization in Malazan is bad when there were several times I started caring deeply for a character in the span of a single sentence - well, that’s just wrong. Thank you for making the video :)
I am so glad that you enjoy the books. Everyone has different preferences and experiences, and so I try to always be cognisant that I am not the authority. I always try 9but am not always successful) to give people the information they need, rather than level a judgement for them.
@@ACriticalDragon I really appreciate your approach of contributing information, not judgements, to discussions - it's one of the (many) reasons why this is one of my favourite channels on youtube :)
My biggest impediment to reading these books is not being able to easily buy a matching large format set
We need a good hardcover reprint!
Well, if it continues to grow in popularity we may end up with a new reissue.
Absolutely wonderful video - you explained these points so well. Great work.
You are very welcome. I am glad that you enjoyed it.
A great primer professor Fireballs! Thank you very much. This is a great video to point new readers to.
I hope so.
Very insightful and helpful video, AP! Thank you. I bought the entire series about two week ago and I found myself peering into my foreseeable future to try and find the right moment to start with book 1, but this has eased my mind somewhat.
I hope that you enjoy it.
Even for a veteran reader that picked up Gardens of the Moon in 1999, like me, this is an entertaining and thought provoking video. When I started reading this series, it felt different and I couldn’t put my finger on it why. This video does a good job explaining that why.
I am glad that you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching.
I would offer that without supporting material (like your explanations and other online sources of context), only about 75-80% of the material can be gleaned from the first read due to the numerous quagmires of misconception that abound as a result of the style IMHO. The epic nature for me was defined by those moments of subtly profound emotion eliciting nuggets like the exchange between Bug and the man whom he serves or at the end of the books when the pain reaches a crescendo and then asks more of you. Agin, IMHO. Thanks again for what you do.
This is such a welcome and necessary video AP. I have been attempting to convince some of my fantasy-oriented friends to try Malazan (both Erikson and ICE) and have struggled to put all my thoughts together without it coming across as a jumbled list of why I personally love the series, while evading the potential challenges that come with the series. This video is going to find its way into some inboxes over the next few days. Cheers from South Africa.
I hope that they find it useful. More Malazan readers is always a good thing.
This is a great video, I just recently picked up gardens of the moon and am now just past the halfway point. I came across it when I went down the fantasy booktube rabit hole because of my love for sanderson. The name Malazan intirigued me from the get go so I did some research. And I was, as I guess most people would be, intimidated by all the things people said about this series. Yet I couldn't help but get excited and try it for myself. This video only confirms that I went into it with the right mindset and therefore I am loving it already. It starts with accepting that you won't get anything and to have trust in Erikson as an author. After that it took about 200 pages to get me hooked. I am invested, interested, confused and most of all still intrigued.
You are so on point with all your comments. The series can be deeply frustrating to read while being so rewarding at the same time, and when you get to the end of the series and everything starts to make sense, all you want to do is start again. The biggest problem is that everything else seems simple and formulaic by comparison. It spoils you for life!
🎯 So well said. Lots of points that I think people reading it intuitively feel but you have put them exactly right. Either that or your accent is tricking me to accept your points.
So well articulated as always! I've recommended it to several friends, and half stuck with it and half bowed out. I do give them a heads up that it's not a "summer beach read" by any stretch of the imagination, and I lean into the short story aspects of Erikson's writing. Now I have a video to share as well.
I hope that the video proves useful. It is always great to hear that there are more Malazan readers out there.
Thanks for the video, very valid and excellent points in my opinion, not to mention you even pronounce Malazan correctly ;) I am coming to the tail end of my second read through, this time with all the Esslemont books sprinkled throughout as well, started with the ascendancy series which I read for the first time. I definitely put it at the top of the list of my favorite series, the characters and the world are just so epically great. Looking forward to the witness trilogy completion someday.
I am glad that you liked the video, but even happier that you are enjoying the books.
This was incredible! I agree completely, there really is no other series that had the effect on me Malazan did. Gardens Of The Moon is actually one of my favorite books of the series. Every book is just so epic, and beautifully written. Add in Cam’s novels, the scope, talent, and ambition of it all is almost indescribable. A gorgeous, dark, almost poetic masterpiece, you can completely lose yourself in. It’s also the most immersive, Erickson’s imagery, and mastery of the page is staggering. Really great video, as always thank you.
Hi Will, I am glad that you enjoyed the video. I hope it is useful to potential readers.
AP, thank you for this video! I'm starting Malazan Book of the Fallen very soon, and this has given me some great context as well as great thoughts on what to expect. Thanks!
I hope it ends up being helpful, and I hope that you enjoy the books.
@@ACriticalDragon Thank you!
Great video. I’m slowly but surely getting through the series.. breaking it up with some shorter reads in between (just finished House Of Chains..but now think I’ll just smash the last 6 back to back)
Agree with all points.. I have no problems at all recommending series as something to aspire to reading.
Very visceral, extrapolative storytelling and.. (from my pleb’s point of view)..Definitely one of the most important series in the genre.
Thanks as always for your vids..been loving the deep dives as I’ve been finishing each respective instalments
You are very welcome. I am so happy that the videos are adding to your experience of the books.
Brilliant video mate!
Thanks for this. As a fan of ASOIAF, the recommendation to read Malazan kept coming up. I finally took the dive in, and I'm about half way through book 1. So far, I'm loving it.
That is great to hear. I hope that you end up a fan of Malazan as well. Contrary to popular belief, you can be a fan of both. 😂😂
Thanks, I’m about to start this journey. Was already planing to but this video has given me the last push that I needed.
I think in the part we’re you say it’s not grim dark, you are actually giving examples of grim dark
As Grim Dark is such an ill-defined term I tried to explain how I envisage it so that even if people had a different definition they would still understand my point.
Thank you! I don't think I would have picked up this book without this video.
I recently read "The player of games" and all "Book of the new sun". I really love those books and Malazan really sounds like that style.
I'm very excited, cheers!
You are very welcome, thanks for watching.
What you said, A.P., pushed me to write what I'm adding below. It's not a direct response, but it is an impression of sorts, and it is a response to what Erikson is doing in MBoTF in so many ways and on so many levels. It also goes to agree with you on the issue of characterization. And I want to thank you, again, for the generosity of your videos.
In season 4 of Farscape a shrunk Rigel tells a shrunk Sikozu that some things you just can't explain. That's when she insists that her brain and internal organs shouldn't function at pea size. It's basically the same as saying that some things are "not dreamt of in your philosophy", so just accept them and move on. but I, well, how do I accept Toc the younger (twice? Three times?) Anomander Rake, the bridgeburners, Brys Beddict - and then Trull Sengar? Andarist? Felisin? The double dealing with respect to death, I can't resolve it - not world-wise but story-wise. For every treatment of the first type, there lurks a treatment of the other type to undermine it. Is one made more poignant, the other more mellow, because they coexist? If it's a statement on the individual not being reducible to explanatory systems, then the point is made, and emotionally I am surely sold, only there's that gnawing suspicion then, that those are characters I'm seeing here and not people, and if they're characters, that means there is a story...
Some books are written to be fully immersive, some are written that playfully address the fact that they are stories, some are in between. There is no one way to write a story (and for that I am sure we are all grateful). You are right that there is a strong element of Erikson playing with the medium and the artificiality of narrative, and that can harm immersion. It is not to everyone's taste.
thank you, A.P. :) Erikson's writing is so good, and it's been my companion for years, now. The treatment of death is a question that's close to my heart. I feel you can't experience it in your life and not have it be. I think what he did with it was extremely aware, and disturbing at the same time. But discomfort in reading is not a shortcoming!
Excellent breakdown sir, I subscribed.
Thank you very much, I hope you find some other videos to enjoy.
Wow what a great video--people intimidated by seeing some or all of these misconceptions about MbotF bandied about will hopefully feel better about starting it up! I know I had come across just about all of these online and it led to me being extremely hesistant about ever picking it up -- what a nice surprise when I actually got into Gardens of the Moon and realized I wasn't drowning in worldbuilding, there was an exciting plot, and I could tell what was happening scene to scene (I kid you not, the exaggerations about the density of the prose led to me thinking that the reading experience would be akin to Ulysses or Finnegan's Wake)
One person's 'complex' is another person's clarity. Terminology is rarely useful unless people are all using the same definition. I am glad that you enjoyed the video.
I found the funny thing is that when ever they start building roads or bridges they build them to fail, almost like he has a gripe with modern roads.
Wow, this is spot on! Every video where you express things in such a crisp, thoughtful and polite manner is proof that everything can be expressed in a constructive manner. You could have raged, belittled, rumbled and so on, and it would have achieved very little compared to what this video has achieved.
You made this in such a way that it can be presented to friends, colleagues, acquaintances and help convincing them to read a book series which they avoid because of the reasons you mentioned or for similar ones. Thank you, this is a very useful video for potential readers or for the ones who feel they're stuck with the series or feel discouraged to continue reading Malazan.
Cheers! 🤗
Thank you, Rox. Sometimes it is hard to rein in tempers and to try to communicate, I know that I am not always successful. But I hope that some people find this video useful and helpful.
@@ACriticalDragon you always succeed to inspire this in your videos A.P. As for not being always successful, considering the world we live in, who can rein in tempers all the time? :) I really admire the calm and thoughtful approach to these issues. It is a matter of choice how you react, and I love that you chose to be respectful and mindful :)
I finished the main series about a 3 weeks ago. Finished TGINW after that and now I'm on Path To Ascendency. I've gotta say the other novels are a must read. The whole Dancer and Kellanved backstory is a gem
Kellanved and Dancer are such a dynamic pair, I am so glad that Esslemont decided to write the stories about their early shenanigans.
Planning on a potential readalong for this starting this winter, with a few booktube friends, and I’m so flipping nervous!
No need to be nervous. It is a fascinating series, and there are loads of videos now, as well as the subreddit if you ever feel like you need them.
The main thing is to relax and enjoy it.
These are so good to know.
I am glad I hadn’t begun before watching this 👍
Thanks for watching. I am glad that you enjoyed the video.
Nicely stated. I agree with your comments on the violence. And I appreciate how men are just as much at risk when they're vulnerable and more powerful beings are around.
Also that the circumstances surrounding it are so varied; running the gamut from species survival, to plunder, to spiritual ideaoloy.
It can be a very difficult topic for some, and so I tried to lay it out without giving away spoilers.
What the series has in abundance is unpredictability! Up to volume 8 and having a great time
I am really pleased to hear that you are enjoying them. Toll the Hounds is a very special book for me.
@@ACriticalDragon I just finished Toll the Hounds. It was an amazing experience :)
amazing video sir. well done
I am glad that you enjoyed it, Christian. I hope you have a great weekend.
Great video A.P. Very nicely laid out, and it should be watched by anyone that's curious about the series, but is uncertain about the investment! I threw myself into it just when House of Chains had been released... I think on the recommendation of an online friend I haven't seen for many years, but I'm ever thankful for that.
I'm one of those who grew up with Wheel of Time, loved it mostly for the worldbuilding and the way it inserted kind of a detective mode to predict plot points in the text, so when I came across Erikson's Malazan books I immediately fell in love with that side, but there's so much more to it.
Thank you Violet. It was certainly a different experience reading the books before all the discord servers, TH-cam videos, and subReddits were around.
I often tell new readers of the series, approach it as a mystery. Understand you’re going to be fed bits and pieces, you’re going to view these stories from many conflicting perspectives, from people with tons of clues and context and then from other characters who seem totally uninvolved. At the end Erikson will reveal the mystery to you and tie things together seamlessly, but he lets you think and work to see how much you can pick up and piece together. All while that’s going on, just enjoy what’s on each and every page, every passage, etc. It’s important to stay “in the now” while reading or you’ll miss the literary “flexes” that Erikson pulls off.
That is great advice.
One your best videos. Should be required viewing before people make judgements (prior to reading)
Thanks Jimmy, I hope that you have a great weekend.
great video, A.P.!
Thanks Trip, I hope that you are doing well.
Good description of how the series should be approached.
I read Erikson's original "Fallen" series and tried to absorb it as best I could and then it was my choice to read it again starting with the two Karkanas trilogy books available then onto the three Path to Ascendency books and then Night of Knives before Gardens and again the following original books until fitting in Return of the Crimson Guard and Stoneweilder after Reaper, (though if I do read it again I may fit them in after Bone hunters). I have read Orb but haven't yet tackled B&B or Assail or the Witness trilogy. This series is not for everyone, I suppose, probably not for everyone, but I love it!!
It's just an amazing series. I'm about to start House of Chains and I'm honestly taking my time reading them because I want to enjoy them and I'm not in any hurry to finish them. I love them.
26:00 pretty much absolutely nailed it out of the park
I am glad at least one of the points made sense to you. 😁
I feel people who struggle with this series are the same individuals who struggle with abstract ideas and keeping context of the bigger picture. If the reader goes into it with no expectations and simply allows the story to open up within the designed way that Steven Ericson wrote it to be, then it becomes pretty clear by book 3 or 4 what is really happening with the plot as a whole. When I figured that aspect out around mid point of the 3rd book, it gave me excitement with each new book because I wanted to see what new perspective and characters I'd get the privilege to read about next. You also learn to appreciate certain characters more on the second read through with a better understanding about their motivations through out the entire series and how they fit in it. Even the books that kinda drag in narrative still give the reader important perspective to things that occur in late books at key moments and these plot devices make you appreciate those books even more because of the actions of characters in those later, important moments. All in all, Steven Ericson is a master at his craft and The Book of the Malazan Fallen is by far my most enjoyable fantasy series I've had the privilege to read.
So this Series has been on my radar since I started reading fantasy about 10 years ago been reading all my life I'm 46 though wasn't really sure if I wanted to read it or not but you just made all the points so I have the first three books in my library as soon as I'm done reading the Empire Of Ashes book 3 by Anthony Ryan I'm picking up Gardens of the Moon thank you so much for making up my mind
Let me know how you get on with it. I hope that you enjoy it.
Absolutely love this book series....I'm now reading book 9...the rich characters, the entire world...amazing. The material is enough to make a future 10 season show. I can't believe this comes from the mind of one man. I could swear there's a team of writers involved
AP! Long time watcher, first time commenter. I've watched... idk, probably at least 50 of your videos. Read the main 10 books for the first time earlier this year, then started immediately again at GotM, and am on RG now :)
I always "like" your videos, but don't bother commenting cause I feel like I don't have much interesting to add. And I still might not, but screw it, I wanted to at least say hi :) (we interacted on Twitter yesterday too btw, regarding your awesome appearance on the TVBB podcast)
So this is a fantastic video, all great points. I particularly like the "doesn't get going until X" one. To me, it's not that the point is totally WRONG per se, it's just framing it incorrectly. Most (many? whatever) people need time to acclimate to... everything. The style, meaning all the things about the style (short story style, in media res storytelling, show don't tell characterization, etc.) -- that's what takes people time to get used to, myself included. It's important to categorize things correctly when criticizing or analyzing media, accuracy matters. So I appreciate you clarifying! Especially as personally I would tell people to read at least 2 or 3, as long as they don't flat out HATE GotM -- but now I can more accurately say WHY that's my opinion.
Anyway I plan to comment more going forward so, see you in the next one!
Hi Chris, thank you so much. I always welcome comments on videos, and everyone has something that they can add to the conversation. That is the great thing about talking about books, we each process and imagine them differently, so we all have a unique perspective. So I am looking forward to seeing your comments and name pop up more often.
I hope that you have a great weekend.
@@ACriticalDragon thank you AP!! I know any comment is a good comment, it’s just a mental thing, you know how it is lol
And yes I will comment more!! Especially when you and the nemesis finally get your tCG videos (and then whole series chat too maybe??) out. I am so hyped for those!!!
Late to this party, but after the climax of the last book, I felt things I have never felt when reading a book. Not sure I have the emotional energy to do it again, but if you can go along for the ride it's worth it. A glorious, hulking achievement and something I want to experience again - at least, most of it...
I have read these books and rates this series as the top Fantasy Novel series to date because it is exactly not the cookie cutter fantasy I read before this series (Take any of the David Eddings series and you find the same formula applied 4 times). Thank you for the analogy of comparing it to the theatres of WW2. I am currently re-reading the whole series and enjoying it every bit as much as the first time
I am very glad to hear that.
Although it is obvious to regular viewers, you may have done well to stress that you are close friends with the author(s) and, although I think you were fair and even-handed in this video, you may have biases with regards to this series.
That being said, this series is, IMO, a modern literary masterpiece. It is genre- and style-breaking and standard-setting in a literary sense. In that sense, many people may be forgiven in not finding it pleasing. Art is always subjective, but quality wins out over time. This series will be recognised in the course of time, I'm sure.
The fact that we are still discussing it when GotM was written in 1992 and published 23 years ago is a testament to that.
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd I think it is only really gaining more traction/recognition in the past few years, however.
@@organicod2438 Might be a bit presumptious but I will consider myself one of the TH-camrs God is Not Willing acknowledges. And where AP is finally referred to as Dr.
I love your videos AP. I have to say though, "it's not about you, it's about me". :)
😂😂😂
I am so happy to hear that you are enjoying the videos. Thanks for watching.
Great promotional video.
I would also add that people think Erikson strictly only writes in "show don't tell." Which is a huge misconception, since Malazan is very show don't tell but still has tell don't show elements. Most books in general use both, their not mutually exclusive. Great vid 🤙
Damn, I should have mentioned that. Next time.
Great review, I’ve read re-read and am currently on book 10 on audible (wanted to know whether I’d got all the names right) and it’s epic. Just out of curiosity do you have a favourite character? Tehol is mine
I don't really have a favourite character. There are PoVs that I enjoy more than others, but sometimes even that shifts depending on my mood and temperament.
Malazan "mosaic" "implied" "can feel confusing" "active engagement" .... other books have "appearance of complexity" "handholding"
How many people are going to respond with a comment that they fall into the 'prefer other books' category?
I just decided I need to read it all again
Well now I want to give this series another try😊
when I first started reading Malazan, I think the online presence wasn't that strong, or maybe I was just not recommended Malazan content. Anyway, after reading Gardens of the Moon I checked reviews on goodreads, and I was baffled. People saying that this book was bad and you should power through, it will get better. I just finished the most amazing fantasy book I ever read, I was stunned by the experience, and was told it was the worst in the series.
I was actually a bit scared that I was the odd one out and the stuff others dislike/like about the books is opposite to my own tastes. Luckily I loved the whole series, and recently reread it accompanying my sisters first read through.
Great video, and I am probably partially guilty of some of the things you mentioned here, I will keep this in mind for the future.
Hi Lothar, I hope your sister enjoyed it as much as you.
When something is different or not conforming to expected notions, there is always a very strong possibility that it will not be universally loved. But for those of us that like that flavour, it is so welcome to finally find it.
The reason I haven't got started on Malazan Book of the Fallen is the length. Due to my reading speed, it would be a 6 month project.
You can read one a year, the way that we read it when it was being published.
That way you will still be able to read plenty of other books and the amount of time is spread out.
I've read it 3 times plus esslemonts books which gives you even more depth of this massive world
Esslemont's work is so often overlooked. I am glad that you enjoyed them.
Thank you, AP! We need more of these. This is one skill I completely lack and I am glad that there are people like you out there (that's just me being generous; it's mostly you, if not only you), who do have both the ability and the willingness to do it. The series has earned a bad reputation for reasons that are beyond me. And even when I know those reasons, they make no sense to me, so finding counter arguments is difficult. Especially if I have to be concise about it. I enojyed particularly the mosaic metaphor. I had compared them in the past as a giant puzzle, where each book is a smaller puzzle and then, once you read all ten, you fit the ten puzzles together to get a big picture. But I think your mozaic comparison is better.
I agree, Erikson is an incredible writer and MBOTF an amazing experience. If someone is on the fence on whether to read it or not, just go ahead and start it, it's incredible.
There is a lot of 'author blaming' when people try to read this series and discover that, yes, maybe it's not the series for them.
Social media has poisoned the well in a lot of respects, in that everyone (and anyone) can voice their opinion and expect the validity of that opinion to be sacrosanct, regardless of the basis for it.
If you think you might like it, just try it and form your own opinion, because that's the only one that really matters.
p.s It's Mah-LAZ-an. MAL-a-zan is captain marvel's nemesis powering up. 😆. The original captain marvel. Don't get me started... 😁
Not only the validity of opinion, but also simply due to anger being a strong motivator/agitator in social media. Controversy gets clicks. Rage induces comments and interactions, and the "influencer" who can engage both sides of the argument gains twice as many interactions as the one who simply panders to their own audience's likes.
@@organicod2438 Sadly, an "interaction" is becoming currency, even though it's of precious little value. But what can one expect when people are crowdsourcing opinions instead of forming their own.
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd could not agree more
It would have been a short video if I kept it to 'You should just try it, you might like it.'
@@ACriticalDragon Imagine that.
😂
I think this was an excellent dismantling of the common complaints that get trotted out.
There is also the "I'm not smart enough to understand..." thing as well.
So here’s a question, and for reference I’m on my first read-through on the main 10 book series, having just finished Deadhouse Gates.
Are there any natural breakpoints in the main series, that would be a good place to take a break? Similar to how the Expanse 9-book series could be looked at as a trilogy of trilogies, but all connected, same big story.
Just asking because I’m trying to read something else before Memories of Ice, but I’m having a hard time getting my mind off the Malazan series.
Thanks
I think after House of Chains is a pretty good break, personally! Midnight Tides has a small time jump (backwards) and would be a nice point to start afresh.
I don't NEED to re-read it, I WANT to re-read it 😅
Mr. A.P, i think Fate is trying to tell me something. Malazan was one of those series i said i will NEVER read because of many of the things you mentioned here. I saw this video last night and got curious so i said to myself if i see Gardens of the Moon somewhere (Not easy down here in Panama) i will buy it and give it a chance. Just passed by today for my local library and there it was, the first 5 books of Malazan in paperback in pristine condition for only $10 !! So i guess i have to start soon or the Malazan Gods will punish me. Thanks for the freat video and take care.
I hope that you enjoy it. Thank you for watching.
I completely agree with everything you said in this video. Malaz is the greatest series I've read.
Is this series for you? Well, do have several decades time, about 25% spare memory in your brain and about three dozens replacement hearts to break..? Then, yes, it is! 😉
😂😂😂😂😂😂
This is a great apology [apologia] of the series! Well stated and concise, for even one so "rambly" as yourself. 😛
Concision is not really my forte. :)
I can kind of see how most of these points of view have come about, even when I don't agree with them, but the one on that list that baffles me is to say there is no plot. I just can't get my head around that one.
It is mainly to do with the lack of obvious overarching through line. Most of us have come to expect that, particularly in fantasy.
I wish there was a Graphic Audio version
That would be interesting, but I am not a huge fan of graphic audio. I find it a little too intrusive. But that is just me.
I get your "Series doesn't get going until". This weekend I finished "Memories of Ice" and I must say that until the last 300 pages of this biiiiiiiiiiiig laaaaaarge book Malaz was for me "It's great, it's funny, but maybe people are exaggerating". But then, the book converges to THAT point that is the siege, and something made "click" inside of me and yes, now I'm sure that I will don't read anything but Malaz's book until I turn the last page of "The Crippled God" in an epic, crazy and unique once-in-a-lifetime binge of reading. Not a bad year for a 44 years old chav that is reading fantasy since he was 13.
As with all readers, we each have individual things that hook us, interest us, or annoy us, and therefore I don't think there is a blanket 'the series doesn't get going until X' because it changes for each reader. For me, it was Gardens of the Moon. For other is was something in Deadhouse Gates, and for others, it never gets going at all.
The more that the expected style of narrative drifts away from what Erikson did, the more likely it is that people will take longer to 'tune into' and find their feet in the series. Maybe. I am guessing.
It's frigging hard but so good. I tried reading Harry Potter, very, very underwhelming. Did not get past the first book. This is the other end of the spectrum and so rewarding. Took me 2 months to read the first book. I am almost done the 5th book and it's been less than two weeks. Yes they are long but I would not have it any other way.
I am writing a book series 1 third of the Book of the fallen length.
You can say that it has elements of Malazan. A much more lighter version of Malazan with characters you follow
Ian C. Esslemont developed Malazan along with Erickson, but never seems to get any recognition. He also wrote his own series of books about the Malazan experience. While not as good as Erickson ( imho ) still, they are de ent reads.
You might be interested in my chats with Esslemont. I have a few on the channel.
3:50 8:10 Is this true? The ending of the series strongly implies that the series is being told to us and for this to be true they would need to be omnipotent or close enough to do so. Their fractured/shattered/floating realm/self is are plausible windows for them to glean their knowledge of events in story. And if you're willing to accept the 4th wall theory and the mechanics of the game behind the origin of the story with their name it all but confirms their omnipotence and omniscience.Sorry for being vague i try to spoil as little as possible. And you are right you dont "need" to re-read. If you enjoyed it enough to finish the series you're doing yourself a great disservice by not doing so, unless your ability to retain the information is near superhuman. Personally i find it difficult to retain information that i view as unimportant and through my first read my perspective had horse blinders on because of this.
No, it is not a story being told, but the end of the series reveals the who and why the story has been shown the way that it has. In effect, you find out who the narrator is.
That revelation is the thing that then makes the series take on new meaning and context as an identifiable narrator from within the world suddenly adds a new lens of unreliability and intent behind the shaping of the narrative.
The story is narrated in third person limited by an omniscient narrator. So it is not told in an omniscient style. The story is also more on the show side of writing than the tell.
The framing is of a curated history of events as experienced by subjective limited character perspectives. So even though the narrator of the series is ultimately omniscient, the actual narration, barring the few inserts, is in a limited, subjective, unreliable, ground level view. This is radically different from the expectations of the traditional form of omniscient telling.
The narrator adds additional commentary at times, and Toll the Hounds is explicitly narrated by a homodiegetic omniscient narrator mimicking the third person limited perspective, but that doesn't negate the narration being predominantly in third person limited, but rather includes occasional inserts. So the style is not in an omniscient telling form of story, but a focus on 3rd person limited showing and slow reveal of story with a clear context that is revealed by knowing who the ultimate narrator is.
Given that Erikson has written the whole thing with an eye on deconstruction of genre norms and a post-modern sensibility, I could have gone into that in depth, but a) the percentage of people interested in that discussion before they have read the work is extremely low in comparison to the expected normal fantasy reader that may pick it up.
B) I already have a couple of videos delving into this very aspect.
C) As you point out, a discussion of this specific element invariably relies on spoilers for the entire series, so that is not really appropriate for a video for people thinking about picking the series up.
So the series is not told to us, but rather shown.
It is not explained by an omniscient narrator, but curated by an omniscient unreliable narrator.
The vast majority of the narration is unreliable, 3rd person, limited and focalised, and is inherently unreliable.
And the complexity of that discussion is entirely predicated on information revealed at the end of the last book.
But that particular aspect gets us into the interesting territory of the distinction between authorship and narrator.
check out the pulitzer-prize-winning liberation series of non-fiction books about ww2, perfectly illustrating your point about mosaic fiction series.
And people sometimes ask where I got that analogy from. 😁
@@ACriticalDragon niiiice.😉
Anybody who thinks violence in Malazan is gratuitous must not have fully understood what they were reading.
We all have different thresholds for what we believe is gratuitous, but I think that Erikson tries not to fetishize or glorify the violence and to try to focus on its impact.
Since the ten big books are not strictly chronological, how about we approach them as two trilogies and a tetralogy (technically still a trilogy).
Indulging in the reading order game:
Trilogy one consisting of volumes one, three, and eight, anchored on Darujhistan and Genabackis.
Trilogy two consisting of volumes two, four, and six, anchored on seven Cities.
Concluding tetralogy consisting of volumes five, seven, nine, and ten, anchored on the Letherii continent.
I can see doing that on a re-read once I'm done with my first go-round.
Sections like the extended flashback introduction of Karsa in HoC are but a blip in a series with multiple flashbacks going back in time for thousands of years.
Same goes for the step back of years with volume five and Trull's backstory.
One item you left off the list (or perhaps it belongs in the characterization category) are some of the unconvincing romantical entanglements. There's some truth to that.
Exhibit A: Trull and Seren Pedac, who mostly just glance at each other prior to him offering her his sword. After their return from the Refugium, Hedge (?) insists the couple have some time alone to do the deed, even though there are more pressing matters. Because a baby must be hatched... (Is there a TVtrope for fist time resulting in pregnancy?) For me, the hand of the author was a bit too obvious there.
The chronological resequencing of plot into story is rarely satisfying because there is an assumption of knowledge in the order it is given. But it is an interesting experiment. Please let me know how you get on.
@@ACriticalDragon yes, as a general operative rule. But I'm not sure that applies for this series. There's sometimes (often?) a feeling of "Wait a minute... I forgot to tell you something. Let me backtrack."
That's why I specifically mentioned Karsa and Trull. There is no background for either of them, so no assumption of knowledge (which may be the point), when you meet them. Karsa in DG is largely a cipher or generic giant. Any knowledge we get is indirect and secondhand from other characters (some untrustworthy). Then you get his backstory two volumes later in the HoC prologue.
Same for Trull. We meet him at his Shorning in HoC, then all of the next volume is backfill. The storytelling is repeatedly retrograde to begin with.
If the method is to withhold information to create suspense of mystery, then yeah... it's a successful approach. But on a re-read my guess is a reader would get more coherence ordering it differently.
I haven't read this book in like 2 months now too lazy
Oh, Malazan it's my favourite fantasy series. I wish I will be able to read it in English one day.
4:48 That is exactly why I don't like these books. They are well written, and I see why people read them, but I am not interested in that type of history book story telling.
I am sorry that you didn't enjoy it. Hopefully the next book that you picked up was more what you wanted.
A history book would give you insight into the big players. How they came to be, their desires, the vibe of their country at the time. I don't want to be spoon fed all of that in a fantasy series, but Malazan had the opposite problem. I wanted to like it so badly but its written more like a World War history book from several second person perspectives about a world and a war you've never heard of but the perspectives assume you do.
But I WANT to-read.
I'm not sure that if you do read it, you won't want to read it again I know I did and I did get a lot out of it.
The reason I couldn't get into this series is because it was more of a war DRAMA than anything, with very few action scenes. Additionally, the action scenes were very short lived
Sorry you didn't enjoy them. I hope that the next book you picked up was more to your liking.
The misconseption of the one who didn't read the whole series.. i feel bad for them
For me Malazan is the best fantasy series i read. The writing style is different than other fantasy series, the plot is unpredictable, the characters is great..
I am glad that you enjoyed it. But I think that we always should be cognisant of other people who may have very different tastes. We all have different books and stories that we love, and it is great to be able to share them with friends.
When dose the pot get unpredictable? Because I finished the first book and felt like everything that happened was obvious. It's not that hard. If he says zag it's a zig.