alot of comments (unsurprisingly) about "well what if my opponents commander is just going to win them the game when it comes down?". first off, are you playing casual commander? secondly, obviously any scenario where your opponent casts something that might win them the game, that's the exact right time to use a counterspell. however, unless that commander has hexproof or indestructible, pongify is likely a better answer and only costs one blue.
I get what you’re saying but “casual” depends wholly on the pod. My pod is competitive casual, so yes, a commander can come down and win the game at our casual table. If you’re okay with using single target removal to get rid of someone’s commander, it’s kind of weird take to tel people then not to counter commanders. Counterspells are literally removal spells with stricter timing. And anyone who’s seriously playing counter spells in their deck isn’t going to tap out while they have one in hand, usually. Also, if I have a counterspell in hand and hold the mana up for it and pass the turn and no one did anything threatening to me, that’s a W in my book because now I don’t cast it and you don’t know if I actually have or if I’m bluffing it. And it clearly worked if no one is really doing anything because of the threat for it to be countered. Usually love your videos, but this one was a wild take to me. As an aside, you mentioned earlier that if you run a lot of counterspells that that isn’t fun for everyone at the table. This is why I’m drifting away from commander and back into constructed. There’s something nice about a 1v1 game where both players are trying to win and you don’t have to consider whether or not the person across from you is having fun, because they’re also trying to win and not concerned with whether or not you’re having fun
I really like Witness Protection (U), Eaten by Piranhas (1+U), and Frogify (1+U) for dealing with commanders. It forces the other player to either disenchant or kill that creature somehow before they can get back to the Command Zone. Pongify (U) and Rapid Hybridization (U) are better for scary non-commander creatures IMO.
@@dreyfus37_65 i hear "competitive casual" all the time. not even sure what it means. that's an oxymoron in my opinion. sounds like your pod is just competitive. you're just playing 9's instead of 10's. if someone's commander comes down and just wins the game, how is that casual?
So here's my take. I agree with you, I prefer the "Offers" and "Songs" more than "essence capture" and such. Especially since as a player myself, my board state is heavily engine based 90% of the time. That being said it is SO strong to be able to time walk the Sissay, or the Tivit. Tivit being countered means it now needs to come down for 8 mana, and when I countered the Tivit it was probably being cast off a Dark Ritual so in that instance my countersell is a 3 for 1. Dark ritual is wasted, tivit was "removed" AND I time walk them. I also know that I have a hard time fighting Kaalia for example, or Sissay, anyone that the commander puts me on a clock. That creature counter buys me an extra turn or 2. So I definitely try to include both, I love this new counterspell. Last, I agree with holding your counterspell for the right moment. This habit let's you run less and therefore keep to only the most efficient spells. But personally 4 is still too low, as I want to see 2/3 in a game. 1 to time walk Kaalia, 1 to guard my board state, and 1 to defend my combo. Anyway, thanks for the content! Cheers
This fact is kinda annoying in standard. If you don't play ruthlessly into a blue players counterspells the just draw more counterspells at the end of turn.
@@CaykeSnifferHence the phrase “make them have it” most of the time, at least in commander, the blue player is bluffing. Have bait cards that still contribute to your strategy, but won’t set you back if countered.
Those are the only reasons to use them along with dealing with stopping something that's gonna be annoying or extend the game if you don't want it to go that direction.
This is like saying using removal on commanders is bad because they come back from the command zone later. Sometimes it's more efficient to deal with commanders via counterspell so they can't have those flawless manuever, deflecting swat, and fierce gaurdianship to cancel your removal spell that are stuck in hand because they want to use it when their commander is on the field. It's worth slowing down your opponents especially if they have a monolith commander and both counterspells and removal do that the same thing with commanders, you're never solving the problem of the commander only delaying it in both ways. It just depends on the table and the situation, just plainly saying countering commanders is bad and telling people to not counter commanders is not true.
Because there are multiple more ways to remove a creature, and unless it has an etb then they dont do much with summoning sickness. Counterspells are ideally against things u cant remove with other spells or combat (such as instants, enchantments, sorceries) but ofc it depends on game state and if their commander is the missing piece to their win then go ahead
I’m a mono black player primarily, but when I do splash blue I only run counters to stop my opponents from keeping me from doing what my deck does. The only time I hold a counter back is if I’m going to Mana Drain something big to ramp me on my next turn to play something splashy.
It’s funny though because you don’t always have to have a counter in your hand, just a good poker face and two open blue mana. I think that’s why the argument for blue being the best is simply because you can make/prevent plays without spending any resource. (I haven’t watched your vid about black being best yet) As a poker player, I’ve always enjoyed the dynamic that blue brings to the table. I do agree that people are not using counter spells properly. Especially with quite a few of the games I’ve played on spelltable. Lol then you’re getting into the merkey waters of threat assessment, where slander like delusional and annoying get tossed around the pod, which everyone enjoys.
That's why it's never worth it to not play in fear of a counterspell, at least make them waste resources, I may get slown down but the blue player is likely becoming the target. Also 100% agree on the poker face part it's so funny, I mostly play green and have fog in a couple decks but my friends think I always have a fog in hand so it's so funny leaving a green mana open sometimes even in decks where I don't have it they'll be pissed and be like: I'm not gonna attack cause you have a fog in hand and I'm like: sure sure. Sometimes they'll even remind me like you surely have a fog in hand and I'm like wha... sure sure
As a blue player I have to disagree. The worst thing you could do is letting yourself taken hostage by 2 blue mana. If i really have a counterspell i'm gonna use it no matter what so you might as well force my hand and get it over with. If you don't play anything because i *may* counter it you've essentially given me the effects of my counterspell for free.
@@simongpunkt exactly, what am I gonna do instead? Wait till I have an even better spell in hand so that they can counter ir cause they still have the counter?
@@simongpunkt That's true in a 1v1 format, but not always in commander. Basically, bad situation>game losing situation. If I have a spell in hand, and that spell resolving is *literally* my only chance of winning, I'm better off holding out until the blue player either taps out or casts the counter on someone else. I mostly play mono blue control/politic. I'm not psychic, but I'm well aware that neither is the blue player. They have to constantly judge what the best thing to counter is at any given time, so as long as everyone isn't holding out at the same time, they'll eventually cast it on someone else. This is another reason why free counterspells are busted. They can hold two mana up, counterspell one player's key piece, and then cast the free counter on the next player's piece when they least expect it. After all, why would the blue player leave mana up if they had a free counter in hand the entire time? This is why.
The whole reason you should be running counterspells in blue in the first place is to protect your own ass. Stop a boardwipe or whatever, the situations which fuck you over and you go "man I wish I could have stopped that"
for non-green decks, the additional 2 mana is a pretty hefty cost. imagine your 5 cmc commander being countered. your gonna spend 7 mana next turn. that’s basically skipping a turn.
I think the biggest point he didn't mention is etb effects. To me that's the main benefit of counter spells. Granted this is situational, but some decks a counter spells is way more disruptive than spot removal. In a yarok deck, countering a creature is huge, a lot of times if some one does removal it's no big deal; I've already gotten the triggers from that card.
One of the main things this argument is missing is that blue has access to a large number of mass bounce spells. Evacuation, Consuming Tide, Cyclonic Rift, Filter Out, etc. This allows blue to plan their counterspells accordingly. Did a problematic card slip through the cracks? That's okay, wait for a good moment to bounce it, and then have your counter available.
Thanks for the advice. I was thinking of doing a mono blue counterspell tribal sort of thing, but it was mostly just to upset the table and not present any real threat (outside of Jin Gitaxias as the commander). The video reminded me of the way I used to respond to power creep by slotting in more counterspells than I would have in the main deck, only to be asked "why do you run so many counterspells?". My answer was always "well, they answer everything and it doesn't matter what the card says if it can't be cast." But the idea of "Freezing" a commander and making it useless (by means of Trapped in the Moon or Darksteel Mutation) is a higher level play that doesn't even meet the criteria for most mono blue commanders. More "noncreature spells"-matters commanders are going to thrive in this space; and while counterspells fit into that category, they aren't the top option for the strategy in a multiplayer game.
Honestly on a broader point, this is for all removal/interaction in general. The best removal is the ones your opponents use on each other. If it isn’t game-threatening, it’s probably fine. You’ll win more games letting another player use their value engine than shutting it down yourself, even if at first it seems counterintuitive.
And honestly, it's a better play experience too. Most players will be happy to at least do their thing, even if they didn't win. Most players won't win, so being able to durdle with their engine is the main point of the game. I think this also avoids the archenemy tag, if people know you only counter game winning stuff.
This kind of touches on the biggest part of threat assessment: "is it a big threat to me specifically, or is it just a big scary thing?" And "does it hurt me but hurt my opponents more?"
So many commanders these days are value engines that continuously create advantage for 0 additional mana investment. Slowing them down can buy you some draws
@edhdeckbuilding My buddy just built an Urza deck. He starts generating the giant tokens if the card makes it out of his main phase. In this case, pongify is filling the same role as a counterspell. Basically Strix Serenage. It is true that when drawing into removal later, it is still castable. Big + for pongify
@edhdeckbuilding yeah removal can deal with creatures, but it can't deal with instants and sorceries. Save your counterspells for what only they can handle.
@edhdeckbuilding Pongify is also worse than Serenade for spot removing commanders. It gets around indestructible, hexproof/shroud, etb effects, ltb/death effects, activated abilities that can be done as soon as the commander comes out, sac outlets, other instants the player has to protect their commander (thinking like deflecting swat or blacksmith skill). It would be strictly better than Pongify, if not for the fact that Pongify can be good if you are top-decking it into the threat later and it still works
@@guyatanosavia8487 pongify gets around, i don't have it in my hand at the exact moment that thing is being cast with one blue mana open. which is more likely scenario. i mean reading these comments leads to to believe that the issue is even worse than i thought. so many magic players just think counterspells are the best answer for everything.
My take, just do the proper treath assestment and play what you consider best at the moment based on what you have available at the moment. If you consider that stopping their commander with a counter might slow them down, and you do not have removal in your hand, counter is the right move. Is all about the situation and context.
you leave 2 mana open. is that turn 2? if it is, you should know spells during turn 2 usually aren’t worth countering. if its turn 6, you should be happy that your opponents are just casting rampant growth or arcane signet.
Another great advice segment! I 100%agree with your point about teferis protection or heroic intervention. They have won me more games than any other type of card for sure. Reading the comments it becomes very apparent that a lot of people are stuck in the old cedh mindset, without understanding that the reason decks like winota became such a powerhouse is because they ignored a lot of what opponents were doing and actually focussed on being proactive. Same with first sliver, magda, krikk, godo, ob nix, krarkashima, codie, (arguably kinnan), tivit, most tymna lists. Like, the entire mindset of cedh is "find what i need to win, ignore as much as possible unless it directly affects me", not "use mana efficiently, outtempo the table". The only reasons they get played at all is to protect your game plan. (Its also why stax is having such a hard time, because it helps/hurts everyone, and its hard to break parity)
“Sweeping the leg” is the best way to win. Players these days over rely on their commander to spin the wheels of their deck. The majority of decks won’t be able to cumulate enough value to finish the game without their commander. One mana for two more turns to out race that problem opponent or spin my wheels to find the next piece of removal is worth it in my mind and in my experience.
Much of what popular MTG tubers spout are just generalisations. Not to say that they aren't useful and generally correct generalisations, but the point remains that they aren't all-encompassing unquestionable precepts. For example, if I'm playing Zada and I've managed to get two to three creatures out on previous turns, counter her on turn 4 without question. If you don't, there's a good chance you and everyone else dies on the next turn. Sometimes a deck relies on the commander so hard that it crumbles to pieces once it's removed. Meanwhile if I'm playing a method 2 deck that relies less on the commander, you might be better off saving the counter for something that I can't just replay for two more mana. The difference here is that having to re-cast Zada for 6 mana is crippling, while in the case of a method 2 commander you don't even necesserily care about re-casting it.
I definitely do think Swan Song is way stronger but i feel like in casual commander a lot of people play high cost creatures with strong effects. I also see a lot of tribals and things like Coat of Arms can be a scary finisher. I think it has a place in blue decks, especially mono blue but of course it depends on your deck. Also I find it interesting that you use Farewell and Teferis Protection in your example at the end. The group I play with would say those cards aren't casual. When it comes down to it, I generally agree with your reasoning but I still feel the card is pretty good.
I agree, the most counter spells I use is five but mostly less and I use them only for sorceries instants and enchantments for creatures a use board wipes for what does one creature mean with two other players or a kill card if it is really a big treat to me.
2:21 But, like, wouldn’t the same logic apply to Swords to Plowshares? Why play a removal spell on a commander? If someone is casting Muldrotha, I’m gonna counter it. If someone is castling the new Atraxa, heck yes, I will counter it. Would I counter Xantcha? Probably not. Would I counter Alela? Probably not.
@@psinaut4775 same with countering the solring, absolutely not all the time but if you know their plan is waiting for high cmc to cast omegathreat then buying potentially two turns more before it hits the board is gold.
the difference is that countering happens in the moment. so if you're playing against that commander, you're going to just sit there with 2 blue mana up the entire game until they cast it? i think removal is a better option there.
@@edhdeckbuilding don’t you still have to hold up mana for removal? I mean, I’m not gonna say countering a commander is always the right play, but there are times you need to.
@@psinaut4775 no. why would you. unless your opponent is going to end the game right now, just untap on your turn and cast away. counterspells only work when stuff is on the stack. and yes obviously there are times when you need to. where did i say that you should never counter anything?
Countering a commander is a good play depending on what it is and if you're playing brawl. I've been playing brawl a lot more because it's all arena has. Definitely a very different format despite how similar it is.
I almost always save my counterspells for those 7-9 mana sorceries that don't literally say "you win the game" but might as well, like rise of the dark realms. Occasionally I'll use one against something that is hard for my deck to remove, or just gives huge value in a short time, like Omniscience or whatever that blue one is that lets you play zombies for free. My play group talks about how I always have removal or a counter for their best cards, but actually I just don't waste them on stupid crap and wait to hit the bombs.
Yes. However, may I introduce you to Commandeer or Spelljack? Your wincon? My wincon. Stop playing huge "I win" cards and I'll stop taking them! Oh, and I've done this in many ways. Red has Etali, Plargg and Nasari, and Mindclaw Shaman. Black has Gonti and Author of Shadows. White... Has evangelize? Idk, I don't play green.
This is why modal counterspells are my 'go-to' counterspells. Archmages charm, cryptic command... even "bad" stuff like quandrix command I will often pick over regular conterspell, because I can usually do something else, if I don't want to counter, that at least progresses the game
That last point gets more into the topic of protection, but that's useful advice. I have Arachnogenesis (2+G) in my token deck because then defending gives me more tokens. But it doesn't help against board wipes and so far I'm finding that I don't get attacked much by creatures since I usually have the larger army in the first place. So I'd probably be better off replacing that with Heroic Intervention (1+G) to A) protect against other types of damage and mass destruction, and B) let my opponents get wiped. I just wish that card was a little cheaper.
There are many great situations when use of counterspell on commander is perfectly fine play. 1) in 1v1 it is often easy tempo play. Sometimes it feels like timewalking an opponent. 2) In cEDH, when an opponent uses more resources to cast commander early (e.g. using jeweled lotus, lotus petal, rituals, etc.) countering with remand/reprieve is perfect play. It will likely take at least a few extra turns to cast their commander as they depleted their useful sources. I love to counter commanders with huge early impact (e.g. GA IV, Tallion, Tivit, Ob Nixilis and many others. If you support it by stax pieces in next turns - collector ouphe, drannith magistrate, linvala, etc. Or even destroy their key lands with wasteland/stripmine). I am playing GW Saffi and love spells such as mana tithe, reprieve, silence, orims chant plus stax and removal.
This will sound dumb, but I run the free counter spells for the counterspell trapping losing me games... Mana Drain on deck takes away almost a whole turn of things I could do, which loses board state, and, if I counter a blood artist, I only get 2 mana for stopping a game winning play. Ive just decided to play the game instead of saving mana for the Drain.
If I’m a mono red player and I can efficiently remove artifacts via my creatures entering while also progressing my board, am I just pathing the way for the green player to take the win? The other colors kind of rely on artifacts like bandaids for their color.
I used an Archmage’s Charm to steal someone’s Marit Lage. They attempted to counter it. I counter their counter. Chain ends, I get Merit. I then win the game. I think I used counters smart there.
i see what point your attempting to make here on this video however whether someone swords or counterspells someone’s commander ( if the commander is a KOS threat level) you are the hero of the table for at least a turn cuz everyone knows you saved them as well … this helps you both ways - stoping a potential win and politicking the table like ‘you’re all welcome’
Counters can also be difficult to use against creatures, as their enter the battlefield or activated abilities haven't targeted anyone (i.e. you) yet, and you don't know who they will attack. You may have just used a counterspell to stop a Reclamation Sage that was going to target another opponent's Sol Ring, or saved someone else being hit for a bunch of damage in the future.
I started playing Commander with a still good friend and active pod member of mine playing a pretty well-tuned Urza LHA because his prior playgroup needed someone to slow them down. I learned to, and still do, HATE Blue without a thought. Counterspells feel intrinsically anti-casual compared to something like Beast Within, where one stops you fully and the other stops you after the fact. For my Thassa Merfolk Blink deck, I actively use counterspells to stop just uber-value cards or to say 'No.' to people playing a commander that can just ruin a game. My Thassa deck is as fair as Blue can get [I used ThOracle as card advantage.] but it still feels bad stopping someone from doing a funny thing. Counterspells are just not a fun card type.
Counterspells are a necessary part of the ecosystem. If counterspells didn't exist, there would be very few ways to stop combos. Most people don't like spiders, but spiders are very important to keep other species in check.
I play Strix Serenade to be able to counter problematic artifacts and creatures. Dockside, craterhoof, bolas's citadel, The One Ring, etc. That being said I do see cards like that often enough in my playgroup to actually make it worth it.
So you mentioned that playing fewer counter spells allows you to play more interesting stuff. I'm assuming you mean permanents and cards to advance you r own board state? The reason I ask is because I construct my deck with a certain number of removal ahead of time. So if I were to use less counters then I would just be using a different form of removal so that my ratios stays the same.
Rhystic study is one of those cards that doesn't "directly" affect other players, but it gives its owner such a large advantage that if not played around/removed, it will win its owner the game. If I had a counter, I would 100% counter it. If I don't have a counter, I will shift all my available resources to pressuring that player. This is similar to Smothering Tithe and The One Ring. Smothering Tithe/The One Ring create such an advantage that it will likely win its controller the game if not IMMEDIATELY pressured/removed.
@@PP-mb2ky Yes agree Rhystic study is so much advantage it must be dealt with. The problem I have only 3 counters and if I counter that then next round something more deadly is on the table and I can't counter that anymore so I always have them for direct danger else I only help the other players.
@@bigbadwolf6256 The problem is you don't have perfect information, correct? All you can see is what's on the table/on the stack. Could the next player have something even worse? Absolutely. But you don't know that. All you can do is make actions with the information that you have.
im pretty lucky with my meta. we dont play farewell or cyclonic rift cause we dont play cards that force those strong cards to be nessesary in the first place. the only places i can encounter those are maybe events, but im not sure if those are interesting for me.
Good advice, but I don't like Teferi's Pro being the instant answer. It's one of a very few select cards that do what it does, and it's not an answer IN blue. Saying to just swap that counterspell out for an almost $40 card isn't really great and doesn't feel very casual either imo.
There's another card you overlooked, and that is.I'm not going say the first part he who shelters all. It's a lamb that says tap pay one life generate one Colorless. If it was used to cast a instant or sorcery that spell That spelled cannot be countered.
I counter commanders in only a few scenarios. 1) someone just burned a ton of cards to turbo out a strong commander early. 2) strong commanders when i dont have removal available. 3) i know that someone getting their commander out will pretty much end the game
First off i completely agree with your points here, thst being said using a force of will on someones sol ring is the type of petty shit i love and would totally do even though its definitely bot a good idea
The only time I counterspell commanders are stuff like etali, atraxa. Aka commanders with game warping etbs, I would know there are multiple people in my friend group who play them. The only other time is in my marchesa crimes deck cause it's a cantrip and I feel safe to do so.
If you leave mana up for a counter and you don't find a target toy fire off instant speed draw spell or some on board removal or a flash threat... This is like basic draw go stuff.
I get your point, there certainly a lot of game ending instants and sorceries. I do gotta give ya a little shit for being the guy who constantly preaches permanent removal and not seeing that that's why you don't have to counter permanent threats. People aren't choosing Strix Serenade over Swan Song, they're choosing it over some other permanent removal spell
I think the big takeaway from this video is that you play counterspells wrong - or more specifically, in general, you are not a durdly control player who is happy to sit back and hold up mana. Counters are not your bag. If you are that player, your deck is built to function on that level. If it is not then you are 100 percent correct that holding up mana to counter some useless spell is a terrible choice. However, if you are content to do so and then dump your mana into something on end of turn before your upkeep then you would have an entirely different deck and play style. The extent to which commander players underestimate the value of Instant and Flash speed is amazing sometimes. You can find entire decks that have only a couple instants (usually spot removal) and nothing else. Most just splash in some flash because they watched a Command Zone and Josh raved about Vedalken Orrery for a half hour :P Your rule 1 mean that you will never be comfortable playing as that guy, but I think that's because you are not seeing it from a controlly viewpoint. When everyone stops what they are doing and focuses on the control player, that player has accomplished his goal. The game is now under his control. He knows what you are going to do and can plan for it and respond as needed. His deck should be ready for people coming at him with everything they got. Come at me bro. :P
I see your point, but for blue there’s not many sources of creature removal. I’d much rather counter someone’s commander than bounce it. (I know there are options, but not nearly as many as the other colors)
That's not true at all. Blue has a ton of creature removal. Pongify, rapid hybridization, reality shift, cyber conversion. Resculpt isn't fantastic but it also hits artifacts. Imprisoned in the Moon, utter insignificance, witness protection, eaten by piranhas.... What blue is missing is good board wipes for creatures.
If there is nothing worth countering your supposed to flash in creatures or draw more cards to keep tempo up. If your gonna run a good counter package you really need to build around it.
I have deathgrip and lifeforce, I have never countered anything with them, turns out they give a lot of advantage against multicolored decks because they choose to play the other colors to not waste a card or to not waste mana.
The fable of "the blue mage who counters everybody's stuff" is just not something you will typically see. I play Spell Table multiple times a week and have over 100 games with random people I've never met, and I have NEVER SEEN THIS HAPPEN. In 1v1 settings, yes, blue CAN counter a large number of spells. Commander is not 1v1. There is no way a blue player can "counter everybody's stuff" without some sort of extremely powerful draw/mana engine. This is more of a mental bias against counterspells than it is truth.
There's always exceptions to every rule. I will definitely counter a players commander if it's the type that gives a large amount of CA when entering the battlefield.
In my opinion, Swan is defensive, countering removal, boardwhipes, etc, while Strix is removal oriented, countering big haymakers. When it comes to countering someones commander might still be a good play. Yes, you address in a comment that if they are going to win the game if it comes down, are you playing casual. However I would like to raise the counterpoint that is is quite common for people to have their most powerful card, or the one that enables their entire deck, to be their commander. Thus stopping it could be very important. You address it and say that removal is more appropriate, but what are counterspells other than removal spells that prevent enter the battlefield triggers and most white and black protection. When it comes to big game ending spells, In my experience, the likes of avenger of zendikar, craterhoof and friends are just as likely as insurrection, but you do have a point, there are many instants and sorceries that end games, while there are few creatures and artifacts that whipe boards (in comparison). When it comes to leaving mana open, if you run a lot of counterspells, make sure you have a mana outlet. Be it things like quick study, (carddraw with flash) or frontloading the creation of clues, and cracking them when you have unused mana before the start of your next turn.
Eh countering a commander may not be the best idea , but, If someone’s playing nadu I’m holding onto counters a removals ready for it lol, if I’m forced to use them for something massive that effects me then obviously I will, but if I don’t need them I’m holding them for nadu or for what the nadu player is going to dig for lol. Iv not felt the need to make sure a commander doesn’t hit the field really until I experienced playing against this card 😂.
The issue here is that you’re overlapping Counters and normal removal most notably with Creatures. The nexus point of interacting with an instant or sorcery is ONLY on its casting, while other card types (permanents) all have a wider amount of time to be handled. The only difference between Counterspell and Swords to Plowshares on a creature is whether they get their ETB, and many commanders have much more threatening effects after they sit on board as opposed to strong ETBs. Countering a commander isn’t worse because they can just get it back later, it’s worse because they can get it back, it’s because you’re using a much better card to do the job of a much less scarce resource. It’s still worth counterspelling if you don’t end up with a bigger target to hit, you don’t want to hold your Megalixer forever, but you are basically using your counterspells as Murders. And sometimes all you need is Murder.
I like but I will say players really underestimate how good the temp loss is say with a remand or countering a commander. Sure they get it back but the tempo can be huge in a lot of scenarios
So, you're right, and that needs to be said, but it also seems like you're both missing the point? It's not that countering commanders is bad and that you should never do it, it's that you should save your interaction for things that - Threaten to end the game (ex. Thassa's Oracle) - Disrupt your ability to play the game (ex. Drannith Magistrate) - or Amass value that's impossible to catch up with (ex. Rhystic Study)
Lol, he even explains the Najeela scenario. It's like some people just look for whatever to say because they like to refute anything someone else is saying.
counterspells make you a archenemy. well that’s new. but it can also be a negotiating tool. other players would make deals with me as long as I let their spell resolve.
@@edhdeckbuilding Not in my experience. Everyone's far more terrified of the Fynn deck at the other side of the table to ever target little ol' me. Or the spell slinger, or the green stompy, or literally any other more threatening deck. It's why I intentionally built my control deck to be slow to win. I can stop you from doing things, but it takes me ages to actually fulfill my wincons and other players can just kill you outright if you try taking me out first. And if you're focusing on me, guess who's gonna sponge all of my control options? Puts everyone in a lose/lose situation, best thing they can do is make deals and weaponise me against the other players. Also pillow fort cards such as dissipation field.
Until nadu comes down, then that free equip equipment! Or a scute swarm. One mana artifact creature or whatever not bad, slowing them down is a great option especially in the cedh the next time they’re able to recast the game is over, even possible in casual, while you’re still setting up and recasting your commander im advancing my board but I’m still running swan song though it’s not a replacement for it .
Your right and wrong. What if you only need this turn to pop off and win and if you're opponents commander locks down you're combo? You only need to stop their commander one turn to win time to counter. Am I wrong. I mean I've actually won games off of countering a commander. Also counter it enough times and command tax can become a real burden. I'm not saying it's a must run play at all but there are definitely times it can save/win games.
Against the sol ring point. It’s a political thing, it’s saying “how dare you!” And then the other two guys are like “Yeah fuck that guy!” And you’re diverting the target from the counter speller to the guy who no longer has a sol ring.
For those still in the “but I have to counter their commander or else they run away with the game” bandcamp… Disregard Strix Serenade. Acquire Darksteel Mutation. For two mana you are pseudo-permanently dealing with someone’s commander. Tergrid and Najeela both are subject to becoming a 0/1 indestructible insect with no abilities. Now those players have to A) Be forced to use their Toxic Deluge effects (-X/-X) to get their commander back or B) Try to destroy the enchantment or C) Use their own removal to exile their own commander. Demo really putting in here why my Pirate typal deck has only 3 counterspells and the most powerful one is Admiral’s Order. I don’t want to use this card to counter a Commander for 3 mana. I want to obliterate the Settle the Wreckage or the Cyclonic Rift that they’re gonna throw at me, and since I’m attacking I only need 1 blue mana to counter their overloaded CycRift. Using counter effectively makes you appear as a more formidable opponent, not because you’re consistently countering everything… but because you’re countering the things that *matter*. 10/10 video right here.
Until you go against something like Voja that has a ward cost that basically stops single target removal, and if you dont remove that thing in the same turn on which it enters, you basically lose the game. On a situation like this I dont see darksteel mutation working.
@@Machiroable I’ll go ahead and pay 5 for Darksteel Mutation. Voja has no abilities now. What’s their play now that they can’t make elves or wolves? (True LGS story btw, we beat Voja to death that night lmao. The only Ward I can justify NOT paying is Octavia’s Ward 8. If not, your mana usage is your problem, maybe make better decisions? idk bro)
your commander is anything on the KOS list -aka eldrazi titans, etali, kaalia, urza, etc… i’m gunna counter it .. not a waste not a trap .. you’re literally countering a potential win for them
Unlikely you'll be the archenemy. You go 1/1 too often, you better have a ton of draw to make up for it. Mana drain, swan song, and force of will are really all you need. Serenade could be OK on a commander that's expensive as well but he's right about countering commander being a bad idea. Anyone try out serenade yet?
It isn't just counter magic but premium removal often used incorrectly. Too often I see Player 3 cast a scary creature, then Player 1 panic and Paths it at the first moment they get priority on the same turn. This is wrong IMO. Let Player 3 have the giant creature. Why? There's a 66% chance it hits one of Player 1's opponents, which is effectively just as good as Player 1 themselves having that creature. Player 1 proving they had premium removal means they can just hold it up and protect themselves should that creature come at them. Otherwise, it only benefits Player 1 to hold off. Too many players don't understand this concept.
Any white deck i run HAS mana tithe Nobody expects the pay a 1 And 2 Respect on not counterspell the cmdr, i just use kill/fight spells (green black recursion)
Threat assessment is the big thing in Commander if your countering a person's soul ring while I will agree that it is a powerful card the rest of the game is not going to go well for you unless you have a way to win the game immediately. Also second 😋
Eh, playing scared or passively, "don't make yourself a target" isn't fun. Even if you end up winning, it feels hollow. I'd rather do the big scary thing even if the table teams up and kills me.
@@edhdeckbuilding if your argument is black is the best bc of necropotence that is a niche case, blue has a vast amount of draw spells compared to others.
@@edhdeckbuilding no you didnt mention anything, you didnt bring up any valid augment so far, you just say I disagree with nothing to back up as to why. sorry if I assumed you were talking about black.
alot of comments (unsurprisingly) about "well what if my opponents commander is just going to win them the game when it comes down?". first off, are you playing casual commander? secondly, obviously any scenario where your opponent casts something that might win them the game, that's the exact right time to use a counterspell. however, unless that commander has hexproof or indestructible, pongify is likely a better answer and only costs one blue.
I get what you’re saying but “casual” depends wholly on the pod. My pod is competitive casual, so yes, a commander can come down and win the game at our casual table. If you’re okay with using single target removal to get rid of someone’s commander, it’s kind of weird take to tel people then not to counter commanders. Counterspells are literally removal spells with stricter timing. And anyone who’s seriously playing counter spells in their deck isn’t going to tap out while they have one in hand, usually. Also, if I have a counterspell in hand and hold the mana up for it and pass the turn and no one did anything threatening to me, that’s a W in my book because now I don’t cast it and you don’t know if I actually have or if I’m bluffing it. And it clearly worked if no one is really doing anything because of the threat for it to be countered. Usually love your videos, but this one was a wild take to me.
As an aside, you mentioned earlier that if you run a lot of counterspells that that isn’t fun for everyone at the table. This is why I’m drifting away from commander and back into constructed. There’s something nice about a 1v1 game where both players are trying to win and you don’t have to consider whether or not the person across from you is having fun, because they’re also trying to win and not concerned with whether or not you’re having fun
I really like Witness Protection (U), Eaten by Piranhas (1+U), and Frogify (1+U) for dealing with commanders. It forces the other player to either disenchant or kill that creature somehow before they can get back to the Command Zone. Pongify (U) and Rapid Hybridization (U) are better for scary non-commander creatures IMO.
@@dreyfus37_65 i hear "competitive casual" all the time. not even sure what it means. that's an oxymoron in my opinion. sounds like your pod is just competitive. you're just playing 9's instead of 10's. if someone's commander comes down and just wins the game, how is that casual?
@@edhdeckbuilding because we are relaxed while playing. We are all having a good time, relaxing and playing magic.
So here's my take. I agree with you, I prefer the "Offers" and "Songs" more than "essence capture" and such. Especially since as a player myself, my board state is heavily engine based 90% of the time.
That being said it is SO strong to be able to time walk the Sissay, or the Tivit. Tivit being countered means it now needs to come down for 8 mana, and when I countered the Tivit it was probably being cast off a Dark Ritual so in that instance my countersell is a 3 for 1. Dark ritual is wasted, tivit was "removed" AND I time walk them.
I also know that I have a hard time fighting Kaalia for example, or Sissay, anyone that the commander puts me on a clock. That creature counter buys me an extra turn or 2.
So I definitely try to include both, I love this new counterspell.
Last, I agree with holding your counterspell for the right moment. This habit let's you run less and therefore keep to only the most efficient spells. But personally 4 is still too low, as I want to see 2/3 in a game. 1 to time walk Kaalia, 1 to guard my board state, and 1 to defend my combo. Anyway, thanks for the content! Cheers
Regarding the open Mana issue, blue has a lot of utility instants you can cast, if your opponents didn't cast anything threatening.
This fact is kinda annoying in standard. If you don't play ruthlessly into a blue players counterspells the just draw more counterspells at the end of turn.
@@CaykeSnifferHence the phrase “make them have it” most of the time, at least in commander, the blue player is bluffing. Have bait cards that still contribute to your strategy, but won’t set you back if countered.
Great advice, I always tell people to use them selfishly in commander. I only use them to either protect my own win, or stop someone else's win.
That I can bare with, still annoying but at least it's not those blue players that think their only way to win is to not let anyone play
Or help someone to win. If you want to go for a spite play.
Those are the only reasons to use them along with dealing with stopping something that's gonna be annoying or extend the game if you don't want it to go that direction.
@@alexv1265Just be wary of the person who swaps out counterspells for redirects.
This is like saying using removal on commanders is bad because they come back from the command zone later. Sometimes it's more efficient to deal with commanders via counterspell so they can't have those flawless manuever, deflecting swat, and fierce gaurdianship to cancel your removal spell that are stuck in hand because they want to use it when their commander is on the field. It's worth slowing down your opponents especially if they have a monolith commander and both counterspells and removal do that the same thing with commanders, you're never solving the problem of the commander only delaying it in both ways. It just depends on the table and the situation, just plainly saying countering commanders is bad and telling people to not counter commanders is not true.
This^
Removing a commander is ok but countering the commander is not?
Because there are multiple more ways to remove a creature, and unless it has an etb then they dont do much with summoning sickness. Counterspells are ideally against things u cant remove with other spells or combat (such as instants, enchantments, sorceries) but ofc it depends on game state and if their commander is the missing piece to their win then go ahead
I’m a mono black player primarily, but when I do splash blue I only run counters to stop my opponents from keeping me from doing what my deck does. The only time I hold a counter back is if I’m going to Mana Drain something big to ramp me on my next turn to play something splashy.
It’s funny though because you don’t always have to have a counter in your hand, just a good poker face and two open blue mana. I think that’s why the argument for blue being the best is simply because you can make/prevent plays without spending any resource. (I haven’t watched your vid about black being best yet) As a poker player, I’ve always enjoyed the dynamic that blue brings to the table. I do agree that people are not using counter spells properly. Especially with quite a few of the games I’ve played on spelltable. Lol then you’re getting into the merkey waters of threat assessment, where slander like delusional and annoying get tossed around the pod, which everyone enjoys.
That's why it's never worth it to not play in fear of a counterspell, at least make them waste resources, I may get slown down but the blue player is likely becoming the target. Also 100% agree on the poker face part it's so funny, I mostly play green and have fog in a couple decks but my friends think I always have a fog in hand so it's so funny leaving a green mana open sometimes even in decks where I don't have it they'll be pissed and be like: I'm not gonna attack cause you have a fog in hand and I'm like: sure sure. Sometimes they'll even remind me like you surely have a fog in hand and I'm like wha... sure sure
As a blue player I have to disagree. The worst thing you could do is letting yourself taken hostage by 2 blue mana. If i really have a counterspell i'm gonna use it no matter what so you might as well force my hand and get it over with. If you don't play anything because i *may* counter it you've essentially given me the effects of my counterspell for free.
@@simongpunkt exactly, what am I gonna do instead? Wait till I have an even better spell in hand so that they can counter ir cause they still have the counter?
Sure those are how you correctly play around it, play through the counterspell. Thing is a lot of people don't
@@simongpunkt That's true in a 1v1 format, but not always in commander.
Basically, bad situation>game losing situation. If I have a spell in hand, and that spell resolving is *literally* my only chance of winning, I'm better off holding out until the blue player either taps out or casts the counter on someone else.
I mostly play mono blue control/politic. I'm not psychic, but I'm well aware that neither is the blue player. They have to constantly judge what the best thing to counter is at any given time, so as long as everyone isn't holding out at the same time, they'll eventually cast it on someone else.
This is another reason why free counterspells are busted. They can hold two mana up, counterspell one player's key piece, and then cast the free counter on the next player's piece when they least expect it. After all, why would the blue player leave mana up if they had a free counter in hand the entire time? This is why.
The whole reason you should be running counterspells in blue in the first place is to protect your own ass. Stop a boardwipe or whatever, the situations which fuck you over and you go "man I wish I could have stopped that"
for non-green decks, the additional 2 mana is a pretty hefty cost. imagine your 5 cmc commander being countered. your gonna spend 7 mana next turn. that’s basically skipping a turn.
So the same as if you used removal on it.
sure, but if the counterspell is what you have in hand, are you not going to use it?
I think the biggest point he didn't mention is etb effects. To me that's the main benefit of counter spells. Granted this is situational, but some decks a counter spells is way more disruptive than spot removal. In a yarok deck, countering a creature is huge, a lot of times if some one does removal it's no big deal; I've already gotten the triggers from that card.
the new etali wants to be removed. if it enters the battlefield,that’s all the value it needs.
One of the main things this argument is missing is that blue has access to a large number of mass bounce spells. Evacuation, Consuming Tide, Cyclonic Rift, Filter Out, etc. This allows blue to plan their counterspells accordingly. Did a problematic card slip through the cracks? That's okay, wait for a good moment to bounce it, and then have your counter available.
Thanks for the advice. I was thinking of doing a mono blue counterspell tribal sort of thing, but it was mostly just to upset the table and not present any real threat (outside of Jin Gitaxias as the commander). The video reminded me of the way I used to respond to power creep by slotting in more counterspells than I would have in the main deck, only to be asked "why do you run so many counterspells?". My answer was always "well, they answer everything and it doesn't matter what the card says if it can't be cast." But the idea of "Freezing" a commander and making it useless (by means of Trapped in the Moon or Darksteel Mutation) is a higher level play that doesn't even meet the criteria for most mono blue commanders. More "noncreature spells"-matters commanders are going to thrive in this space; and while counterspells fit into that category, they aren't the top option for the strategy in a multiplayer game.
Honestly on a broader point, this is for all removal/interaction in general. The best removal is the ones your opponents use on each other. If it isn’t game-threatening, it’s probably fine. You’ll win more games letting another player use their value engine than shutting it down yourself, even if at first it seems counterintuitive.
And honestly, it's a better play experience too.
Most players will be happy to at least do their thing, even if they didn't win. Most players won't win, so being able to durdle with their engine is the main point of the game.
I think this also avoids the archenemy tag, if people know you only counter game winning stuff.
@@shorewall Nobody likes to be steamrolled. If I go down I wanna do some serious damage before I go down in flames
This kind of touches on the biggest part of threat assessment: "is it a big threat to me specifically, or is it just a big scary thing?" And "does it hurt me but hurt my opponents more?"
So many commanders these days are value engines that continuously create advantage for 0 additional mana investment.
Slowing them down can buy you some draws
pongify costs one blue
@edhdeckbuilding My buddy just built an Urza deck. He starts generating the giant tokens if the card makes it out of his main phase. In this case, pongify is filling the same role as a counterspell. Basically Strix Serenage.
It is true that when drawing into removal later, it is still castable. Big + for pongify
@edhdeckbuilding yeah removal can deal with creatures, but it can't deal with instants and sorceries.
Save your counterspells for what only they can handle.
@edhdeckbuilding Pongify is also worse than Serenade for spot removing commanders.
It gets around indestructible, hexproof/shroud, etb effects, ltb/death effects, activated abilities that can be done as soon as the commander comes out, sac outlets, other instants the player has to protect their commander (thinking like deflecting swat or blacksmith skill). It would be strictly better than Pongify, if not for the fact that Pongify can be good if you are top-decking it into the threat later and it still works
@@guyatanosavia8487 pongify gets around, i don't have it in my hand at the exact moment that thing is being cast with one blue mana open. which is more likely scenario. i mean reading these comments leads to to believe that the issue is even worse than i thought. so many magic players just think counterspells are the best answer for everything.
Few times have I been so happy as when I counter a game-winning sorcery in my mono-black deck with warping wail. You never see it coming.
*takes warping wail out of my binder and into my mono black deck*
Countered a Curse of the Cabal with a Dawn Charm. Felt great
highly overlooked card that good in any non blue deck that need to protect against board wipes
Imp mischief if you want to counter counterspell in mono black
@@dariocampanella7992 Just opened a copy a couple days ago actually, looking forward to it!
My take, just do the proper treath assestment and play what you consider best at the moment based on what you have available at the moment. If you consider that stopping their commander with a counter might slow them down, and you do not have removal in your hand, counter is the right move. Is all about the situation and context.
you leave 2 mana open. is that turn 2? if it is, you should know spells during turn 2 usually aren’t worth countering. if its turn 6, you should be happy that your opponents are just casting rampant growth or arcane signet.
Some times it’s fun to try to snipe the sol ring
hahahahaha it happened to me a couple of times. i was just focused on killing that guy the whole game. everyone was still cool though.
The best counter spell is the one you don't have to use
Another great advice segment!
I 100%agree with your point about teferis protection or heroic intervention. They have won me more games than any other type of card for sure.
Reading the comments it becomes very apparent that a lot of people are stuck in the old cedh mindset, without understanding that the reason decks like winota became such a powerhouse is because they ignored a lot of what opponents were doing and actually focussed on being proactive. Same with first sliver, magda, krikk, godo, ob nix, krarkashima, codie, (arguably kinnan), tivit, most tymna lists.
Like, the entire mindset of cedh is "find what i need to win, ignore as much as possible unless it directly affects me", not "use mana efficiently, outtempo the table". The only reasons they get played at all is to protect your game plan. (Its also why stax is having such a hard time, because it helps/hurts everyone, and its hard to break parity)
“Sweeping the leg” is the best way to win. Players these days over rely on their commander to spin the wheels of their deck. The majority of decks won’t be able to cumulate enough value to finish the game without their commander. One mana for two more turns to out race that problem opponent or spin my wheels to find the next piece of removal is worth it in my mind and in my experience.
Much of what popular MTG tubers spout are just generalisations. Not to say that they aren't useful and generally correct generalisations, but the point remains that they aren't all-encompassing unquestionable precepts.
For example, if I'm playing Zada and I've managed to get two to three creatures out on previous turns, counter her on turn 4 without question. If you don't, there's a good chance you and everyone else dies on the next turn. Sometimes a deck relies on the commander so hard that it crumbles to pieces once it's removed.
Meanwhile if I'm playing a method 2 deck that relies less on the commander, you might be better off saving the counter for something that I can't just replay for two more mana. The difference here is that having to re-cast Zada for 6 mana is crippling, while in the case of a method 2 commander you don't even necesserily care about re-casting it.
Great points all. I hadn't thought that counterspell "trap" but that's a great way to put it cuz that's exactly what happens
I generally use counterspells in decks where I cast a lot of instants so if I see nothing worth countering I just cast like an opt or whatever
I definitely do think Swan Song is way stronger but i feel like in casual commander a lot of people play high cost creatures with strong effects. I also see a lot of tribals and things like Coat of Arms can be a scary finisher. I think it has a place in blue decks, especially mono blue but of course it depends on your deck. Also I find it interesting that you use Farewell and Teferis Protection in your example at the end. The group I play with would say those cards aren't casual. When it comes down to it, I generally agree with your reasoning but I still feel the card is pretty good.
Had a guy resign when I countered his Pantzlaza. 10/10, would recommend.
If someone in your meta brings out Nadu you need a few of these on hand
I don't think anyone in my playgroup is lame enough to play such a boring commander, Nadu and his shuko are unplayable cash crops. take the $$$$
I agree, the most counter spells I use is five but mostly less and I use them only for sorceries instants and enchantments for creatures a use board wipes for what does one creature mean with two other players or a kill card if it is really a big treat to me.
2:21
But, like, wouldn’t the same logic apply to Swords to Plowshares? Why play a removal spell on a commander? If someone is casting Muldrotha, I’m gonna counter it. If someone is castling the new Atraxa, heck yes, I will counter it. Would I counter Xantcha? Probably not. Would I counter Alela? Probably not.
I was thinking the same thing. Counterspelling a commander is sometimes the absolute right play.
@@psinaut4775 same with countering the solring, absolutely not all the time but if you know their plan is waiting for high cmc to cast omegathreat then buying potentially two turns more before it hits the board is gold.
the difference is that countering happens in the moment. so if you're playing against that commander, you're going to just sit there with 2 blue mana up the entire game until they cast it? i think removal is a better option there.
@@edhdeckbuilding don’t you still have to hold up mana for removal? I mean, I’m not gonna say countering a commander is always the right play, but there are times you need to.
@@psinaut4775 no. why would you. unless your opponent is going to end the game right now, just untap on your turn and cast away. counterspells only work when stuff is on the stack. and yes obviously there are times when you need to. where did i say that you should never counter anything?
Countering a commander is a good play depending on what it is and if you're playing brawl. I've been playing brawl a lot more because it's all arena has. Definitely a very different format despite how similar it is.
I almost always save my counterspells for those 7-9 mana sorceries that don't literally say "you win the game" but might as well, like rise of the dark realms.
Occasionally I'll use one against something that is hard for my deck to remove, or just gives huge value in a short time, like Omniscience or whatever that blue one is that lets you play zombies for free.
My play group talks about how I always have removal or a counter for their best cards, but actually I just don't waste them on stupid crap and wait to hit the bombs.
Rooftop Storm is the Zombie enchantment to cast for 0
Yes. However, may I introduce you to Commandeer or Spelljack? Your wincon? My wincon. Stop playing huge "I win" cards and I'll stop taking them!
Oh, and I've done this in many ways. Red has Etali, Plargg and Nasari, and Mindclaw Shaman. Black has Gonti and Author of Shadows. White... Has evangelize? Idk, I don't play green.
@@twilightwolf90 ha, yes, I used Aethersnatch on someone's Fiery Emancipation once. 6 mana for 6 mana. Now I do triple damage 😆
This is why modal counterspells are my 'go-to' counterspells. Archmages charm, cryptic command... even "bad" stuff like quandrix command I will often pick over regular conterspell, because I can usually do something else, if I don't want to counter, that at least progresses the game
That last point gets more into the topic of protection, but that's useful advice. I have Arachnogenesis (2+G) in my token deck because then defending gives me more tokens. But it doesn't help against board wipes and so far I'm finding that I don't get attacked much by creatures since I usually have the larger army in the first place. So I'd probably be better off replacing that with Heroic Intervention (1+G) to A) protect against other types of damage and mass destruction, and B) let my opponents get wiped. I just wish that card was a little cheaper.
Perfect timing because I just played in a game yesterday where a guy was countering splashy cards and then someone comboed off and he had no counters
the splashy cards always get the attention.
There are many great situations when use of counterspell on commander is perfectly fine play. 1) in 1v1 it is often easy tempo play. Sometimes it feels like timewalking an opponent. 2) In cEDH, when an opponent uses more resources to cast commander early (e.g. using jeweled lotus, lotus petal, rituals, etc.) countering with remand/reprieve is perfect play. It will likely take at least a few extra turns to cast their commander as they depleted their useful sources. I love to counter commanders with huge early impact (e.g. GA IV, Tallion, Tivit, Ob Nixilis and many others. If you support it by stax pieces in next turns - collector ouphe, drannith magistrate, linvala, etc. Or even destroy their key lands with wasteland/stripmine). I am playing GW Saffi and love spells such as mana tithe, reprieve, silence, orims chant plus stax and removal.
This will sound dumb, but I run the free counter spells for the counterspell trapping losing me games... Mana Drain on deck takes away almost a whole turn of things I could do, which loses board state, and, if I counter a blood artist, I only get 2 mana for stopping a game winning play. Ive just decided to play the game instead of saving mana for the Drain.
If I’m a mono red player and I can efficiently remove artifacts via my creatures entering while also progressing my board, am I just pathing the way for the green player to take the win? The other colors kind of rely on artifacts like bandaids for their color.
Confounding Riddle being my favorite counterspell. Yes cost 3 but if you leave mana open you can still anticipate. Supreme will if you want a backup.
I used an Archmage’s Charm to steal someone’s Marit Lage. They attempted to counter it. I counter their counter. Chain ends, I get Merit. I then win the game. I think I used counters smart there.
I dont Wash Away my friend's Commander because it's a good play, I do it because it's funny
Even funnier when you wash away a commander that can definitely swim 😆
What would you say is a good number to run? Also, what about 1v1 matches?
i see what point your attempting to make here on this video
however whether someone swords or counterspells someone’s commander ( if the commander is a KOS threat level)
you are the hero of the table for at least a turn cuz everyone knows you saved them as well … this helps you both ways - stoping a potential win and politicking the table like ‘you’re all welcome’
Many times not they laugh they thank you and then they kill you.
@@bigbadwolf6256 That's why you at least _try_ to make deals with people.
@@jacobesterson I know and you must always try. On that I agree.
I've used "wheel of Sun and Moon" to prevent my opponent from engaging in graveyard shenanigans.
Counters can also be difficult to use against creatures, as their enter the battlefield or activated abilities haven't targeted anyone (i.e. you) yet, and you don't know who they will attack.
You may have just used a counterspell to stop a Reclamation Sage that was going to target another opponent's Sol Ring, or saved someone else being hit for a bunch of damage in the future.
I started playing Commander with a still good friend and active pod member of mine playing a pretty well-tuned Urza LHA because his prior playgroup needed someone to slow them down. I learned to, and still do, HATE Blue without a thought.
Counterspells feel intrinsically anti-casual compared to something like Beast Within, where one stops you fully and the other stops you after the fact. For my Thassa Merfolk Blink deck, I actively use counterspells to stop just uber-value cards or to say 'No.' to people playing a commander that can just ruin a game. My Thassa deck is as fair as Blue can get [I used ThOracle as card advantage.] but it still feels bad stopping someone from doing a funny thing. Counterspells are just not a fun card type.
Counterspells are a necessary part of the ecosystem. If counterspells didn't exist, there would be very few ways to stop combos. Most people don't like spiders, but spiders are very important to keep other species in check.
I play Strix Serenade to be able to counter problematic artifacts and creatures. Dockside, craterhoof, bolas's citadel, The One Ring, etc. That being said I do see cards like that often enough in my playgroup to actually make it worth it.
100% Facts
So you mentioned that playing fewer counter spells allows you to play more interesting stuff. I'm assuming you mean permanents and cards to advance you r own board state? The reason I ask is because I construct my deck with a certain number of removal ahead of time. So if I were to use less counters then I would just be using a different form of removal so that my ratios stays the same.
You gotta have those modal spells that have a mode that counters stuff. Three Steps Ahead, Sublime Epiphany, etc.
You say don't counter things that don't affect you directly, but would you counter a rhystic study?
I would not, he should be target and if not then why should I use a counter if nobody else cares.
likely i wouldn't. but it depends if my deck has enchantment removal. if i'm playing monoblue, i might.
Rhystic study is one of those cards that doesn't "directly" affect other players, but it gives its owner such a large advantage that if not played around/removed, it will win its owner the game. If I had a counter, I would 100% counter it. If I don't have a counter, I will shift all my available resources to pressuring that player. This is similar to Smothering Tithe and The One Ring. Smothering Tithe/The One Ring create such an advantage that it will likely win its controller the game if not IMMEDIATELY pressured/removed.
@@PP-mb2ky Yes agree Rhystic study is so much advantage it must be dealt with. The problem I have only 3 counters and if I counter that then next round something more deadly is on the table and I can't counter that anymore so I always have them for direct danger else I only help the other players.
@@bigbadwolf6256 The problem is you don't have perfect information, correct? All you can see is what's on the table/on the stack. Could the next player have something even worse? Absolutely. But you don't know that. All you can do is make actions with the information that you have.
This is my favorite kind of Demo content.
im pretty lucky with my meta. we dont play farewell or cyclonic rift cause we dont play cards that force those strong cards to be nessesary in the first place.
the only places i can encounter those are maybe events, but im not sure if those are interesting for me.
I’ve never dealt with it, if a commander is countered, does that still count towards commander tax?
Yes, once a commander leaves the command zone, then returns, the commander tax applies.
This includes going onto the stack.
As I'm building a dimir pauper edh deck right now, this video feels very personal.
Countering commanders with ETBs is the right move sometimes.
Good advice, but I don't like Teferi's Pro being the instant answer. It's one of a very few select cards that do what it does, and it's not an answer IN blue. Saying to just swap that counterspell out for an almost $40 card isn't really great and doesn't feel very casual either imo.
Use Aesi, tyrant of gyre straight as your commander and you can use as many counter spells as you want and never have a mana issue.
There's another card you overlooked, and that is.I'm not going say the first part he who shelters all. It's a lamb that says tap pay one life generate one Colorless. If it was used to cast a instant or sorcery that spell That spelled cannot be countered.
I counter commanders in only a few scenarios. 1) someone just burned a ton of cards to turbo out a strong commander early. 2) strong commanders when i dont have removal available. 3) i know that someone getting their commander out will pretty much end the game
First off i completely agree with your points here, thst being said using a force of will on someones sol ring is the type of petty shit i love and would totally do even though its definitely bot a good idea
The only time I counterspell commanders are stuff like etali, atraxa. Aka commanders with game warping etbs, I would know there are multiple people in my friend group who play them. The only other time is in my marchesa crimes deck cause it's a cantrip and I feel safe to do so.
If you leave mana up for a counter and you don't find a target toy fire off instant speed draw spell or some on board removal or a flash threat... This is like basic draw go stuff.
I agree with most of what was said. I know what you were getting at with the Tefari protection but come on, that's better than anything lol.
I get your point, there certainly a lot of game ending instants and sorceries. I do gotta give ya a little shit for being the guy who constantly preaches permanent removal and not seeing that that's why you don't have to counter permanent threats.
People aren't choosing Strix Serenade over Swan Song, they're choosing it over some other permanent removal spell
I think the big takeaway from this video is that you play counterspells wrong - or more specifically, in general, you are not a durdly control player who is happy to sit back and hold up mana. Counters are not your bag. If you are that player, your deck is built to function on that level. If it is not then you are 100 percent correct that holding up mana to counter some useless spell is a terrible choice. However, if you are content to do so and then dump your mana into something on end of turn before your upkeep then you would have an entirely different deck and play style. The extent to which commander players underestimate the value of Instant and Flash speed is amazing sometimes. You can find entire decks that have only a couple instants (usually spot removal) and nothing else. Most just splash in some flash because they watched a Command Zone and Josh raved about Vedalken Orrery for a half hour :P
Your rule 1 mean that you will never be comfortable playing as that guy, but I think that's because you are not seeing it from a controlly viewpoint. When everyone stops what they are doing and focuses on the control player, that player has accomplished his goal. The game is now under his control. He knows what you are going to do and can plan for it and respond as needed. His deck should be ready for people coming at him with everything they got. Come at me bro. :P
I see your point, but for blue there’s not many sources of creature removal. I’d much rather counter someone’s commander than bounce it. (I know there are options, but not nearly as many as the other colors)
That's not true at all. Blue has a ton of creature removal. Pongify, rapid hybridization, reality shift, cyber conversion. Resculpt isn't fantastic but it also hits artifacts. Imprisoned in the Moon, utter insignificance, witness protection, eaten by piranhas....
What blue is missing is good board wipes for creatures.
If there is nothing worth countering your supposed to flash in creatures or draw more cards to keep tempo up. If your gonna run a good counter package you really need to build around it.
I have deathgrip and lifeforce, I have never countered anything with them, turns out they give a lot of advantage against multicolored decks because they choose to play the other colors to not waste a card or to not waste mana.
The fable of "the blue mage who counters everybody's stuff" is just not something you will typically see. I play Spell Table multiple times a week and have over 100 games with random people I've never met, and I have NEVER SEEN THIS HAPPEN. In 1v1 settings, yes, blue CAN counter a large number of spells. Commander is not 1v1. There is no way a blue player can "counter everybody's stuff" without some sort of extremely powerful draw/mana engine. This is more of a mental bias against counterspells than it is truth.
My “counterspell trap” is “oh I held up 2 blue and no one casted anything worth countering” so I DONT continue to hold that mana up on future turns
The whole "no one casted anything" argument sounds like something a non-blue player would come up with, blues brothers cast in flash speed.
@@Pallamut that tracks I’m a black mage
One reason I enjoy my Oskar deck. I can play any spell at instant speed so mana never goes to waste.
There's always exceptions to every rule. I will definitely counter a players commander if it's the type that gives a large amount of CA when entering the battlefield.
In my opinion, Swan is defensive, countering removal, boardwhipes, etc, while Strix is removal oriented, countering big haymakers.
When it comes to countering someones commander might still be a good play. Yes, you address in a comment that if they are going to win the game if it comes down, are you playing casual. However I would like to raise the counterpoint that is is quite common for people to have their most powerful card, or the one that enables their entire deck, to be their commander. Thus stopping it could be very important.
You address it and say that removal is more appropriate, but what are counterspells other than removal spells that prevent enter the battlefield triggers and most white and black protection.
When it comes to big game ending spells, In my experience, the likes of avenger of zendikar, craterhoof and friends are just as likely as insurrection, but you do have a point, there are many instants and sorceries that end games, while there are few creatures and artifacts that whipe boards (in comparison).
When it comes to leaving mana open, if you run a lot of counterspells, make sure you have a mana outlet. Be it things like quick study, (carddraw with flash) or frontloading the creation of clues, and cracking them when you have unused mana before the start of your next turn.
Not when you have 60 of them.
I often fall into the trap of countering meh stuff just to get some value. I kinda make up for it since the deck recurrs them fairly regularly
Eh countering a commander may not be the best idea , but, If someone’s playing nadu I’m holding onto counters a removals ready for it lol, if I’m forced to use them for something massive that effects me then obviously I will, but if I don’t need them I’m holding them for nadu or for what the nadu player is going to dig for lol. Iv not felt the need to make sure a commander doesn’t hit the field really until I experienced playing against this card 😂.
The issue here is that you’re overlapping Counters and normal removal most notably with Creatures. The nexus point of interacting with an instant or sorcery is ONLY on its casting, while other card types (permanents) all have a wider amount of time to be handled. The only difference between Counterspell and Swords to Plowshares on a creature is whether they get their ETB, and many commanders have much more threatening effects after they sit on board as opposed to strong ETBs. Countering a commander isn’t worse because they can just get it back later, it’s worse because they can get it back, it’s because you’re using a much better card to do the job of a much less scarce resource. It’s still worth counterspelling if you don’t end up with a bigger target to hit, you don’t want to hold your Megalixer forever, but you are basically using your counterspells as Murders. And sometimes all you need is Murder.
I like but I will say players really underestimate how good the temp loss is say with a remand or countering a commander. Sure they get it back but the tempo can be huge in a lot of scenarios
Ill counter a commander like jodah. He snowballs so fast if you let him sticl arou d more than 1 turn.
I play counter in a similar way I really enjoy turn aside for these reasons
Opponent: casts Etali Primal Conqueror
Me: sure no problem I don't like countering Commanders, have fun
Opponent: wins the game
So, you're right, and that needs to be said, but it also seems like you're both missing the point? It's not that countering commanders is bad and that you should never do it, it's that you should save your interaction for things that
- Threaten to end the game (ex. Thassa's Oracle)
- Disrupt your ability to play the game (ex. Drannith Magistrate)
- or Amass value that's impossible to catch up with (ex. Rhystic Study)
Lol, he even explains the Najeela scenario. It's like some people just look for whatever to say because they like to refute anything someone else is saying.
this comment is strange. literally anything an opponent does, if you think it's going to win them the game, you should probably counter it.
There are other ways to deal with that.
Hear me out Arixmethes, Slumbering Isle and 30 counterspells
Hot take: Teferi's protection is good.
What if their commander can remove things once a turn. Grist
Why am I just now receiving a notification on a video I've seen nearly a week ago?
not sure. but youtube has been switching up some stuff lately with creators
counterspells make you a archenemy. well that’s new. but it can also be a negotiating tool. other players would make deals with me as long as I let their spell resolve.
you think that players having to ask you permission to play their decks isn't going to make you the arch enemy?
@@edhdeckbuilding Not in my experience. Everyone's far more terrified of the Fynn deck at the other side of the table to ever target little ol' me. Or the spell slinger, or the green stompy, or literally any other more threatening deck.
It's why I intentionally built my control deck to be slow to win. I can stop you from doing things, but it takes me ages to actually fulfill my wincons and other players can just kill you outright if you try taking me out first. And if you're focusing on me, guess who's gonna sponge all of my control options? Puts everyone in a lose/lose situation, best thing they can do is make deals and weaponise me against the other players.
Also pillow fort cards such as dissipation field.
from my experience, no. even kept me safe.
if nadu is sign for this to come you really dont want some commanders to hit the board
Until nadu comes down, then that free equip equipment! Or a scute swarm. One mana artifact creature or whatever not bad, slowing them down is a great option especially in the cedh the next time they’re able to recast the game is over, even possible in casual, while you’re still setting up and recasting your commander im advancing my board but I’m still running swan song though it’s not a replacement for it .
Your right and wrong. What if you only need this turn to pop off and win and if you're opponents commander locks down you're combo?
You only need to stop their commander one turn to win time to counter.
Am I wrong.
I mean I've actually won games off of countering a commander.
Also counter it enough times and command tax can become a real burden.
I'm not saying it's a must run play at all but there are definitely times it can save/win games.
Against the sol ring point. It’s a political thing, it’s saying “how dare you!” And then the other two guys are like “Yeah fuck that guy!” And you’re diverting the target from the counter speller to the guy who no longer has a sol ring.
For those still in the “but I have to counter their commander or else they run away with the game” bandcamp…
Disregard Strix Serenade.
Acquire Darksteel Mutation.
For two mana you are pseudo-permanently dealing with someone’s commander. Tergrid and Najeela both are subject to becoming a 0/1 indestructible insect with no abilities. Now those players have to A) Be forced to use their Toxic Deluge effects (-X/-X) to get their commander back or B) Try to destroy the enchantment or C) Use their own removal to exile their own commander.
Demo really putting in here why my Pirate typal deck has only 3 counterspells and the most powerful one is Admiral’s Order. I don’t want to use this card to counter a Commander for 3 mana. I want to obliterate the Settle the Wreckage or the Cyclonic Rift that they’re gonna throw at me, and since I’m attacking I only need 1 blue mana to counter their overloaded CycRift. Using counter effectively makes you appear as a more formidable opponent, not because you’re consistently countering everything… but because you’re countering the things that *matter*.
10/10 video right here.
Until you go against something like Voja that has a ward cost that basically stops single target removal, and if you dont remove that thing in the same turn on which it enters, you basically lose the game. On a situation like this I dont see darksteel mutation working.
@@Machiroable I’ll go ahead and pay 5 for Darksteel Mutation. Voja has no abilities now. What’s their play now that they can’t make elves or wolves?
(True LGS story btw, we beat Voja to death that night lmao. The only Ward I can justify NOT paying is Octavia’s Ward 8. If not, your mana usage is your problem, maybe make better decisions? idk bro)
your commander is anything on the KOS list -aka eldrazi titans, etali, kaalia, urza, etc…
i’m gunna counter it .. not a waste not a trap .. you’re literally countering a potential win for them
countering a potential win is a great use of a counterspell. obviously.
Counter the engine commander.
Unlikely you'll be the archenemy. You go 1/1 too often, you better have a ton of draw to make up for it.
Mana drain, swan song, and force of will are really all you need. Serenade could be OK on a commander that's expensive as well but he's right about countering commander being a bad idea.
Anyone try out serenade yet?
It isn't just counter magic but premium removal often used incorrectly. Too often I see Player 3 cast a scary creature, then Player 1 panic and Paths it at the first moment they get priority on the same turn. This is wrong IMO. Let Player 3 have the giant creature. Why? There's a 66% chance it hits one of Player 1's opponents, which is effectively just as good as Player 1 themselves having that creature. Player 1 proving they had premium removal means they can just hold it up and protect themselves should that creature come at them. Otherwise, it only benefits Player 1 to hold off. Too many players don't understand this concept.
I tell people this all the time. Counterspells are about permission, not denial, and generally most things should be fine to go through
“Hmm… I’ll allow it.”
Any white deck i run HAS mana tithe
Nobody expects the pay a 1
And 2
Respect on not counterspell the cmdr, i just use kill/fight spells (green black recursion)
This guys playing against fish.
Threat assessment is the big thing in Commander if your countering a person's soul ring while I will agree that it is a powerful card the rest of the game is not going to go well for you unless you have a way to win the game immediately. Also second 😋
Before watching, I agree. Now let's see those points.
Eh, playing scared or passively, "don't make yourself a target" isn't fun. Even if you end up winning, it feels hollow. I'd rather do the big scary thing even if the table teams up and kills me.
what you call "scared and passive" i call "smart and strategic", but to each their own i guess.
Yeah that works until you face a deck like mine, that starts out somewhat innocent, then seemingly out of nowhere becomes an unstoppable monster.
Player threat assessment just poorly anymore
Laughs in last march of the ents
"Don't counter the thing that ramps. Counter the thing the ramp ramps into."
countering is not the best thing blue can do in commander, best thing blue does is draw cards.
every color can draw cards. and blue isn't even the best at it.
@@edhdeckbuilding if your argument is black is the best bc of necropotence that is a niche case, blue has a vast amount of draw spells compared to others.
@@RukiHyena did i mention necropotence?
@@edhdeckbuilding no you didnt mention anything, you didnt bring up any valid augment so far, you just say I disagree with nothing to back up as to why. sorry if I assumed you were talking about black.
@@RukiHyena here's my thoughts: th-cam.com/video/0GC8ikbPos4/w-d-xo.html