I remember when I first entertained these notions, my son was 7… one afternoon I said son I think we should swap roles for a time, you can be the father and I will be the son…he thought about for a few moments and agreed…I had no idea where this was going to go… then he said to me “son I want you to take me to the shop and buy me an ice cream”. I said yes dad and did so immediately. Something happened in this exchanging of roles which introduced both of us into the realm of new possibilities…the lord of the 4 quarters did say “ask and you shall receive” and of course this true. The answer already exists but to know it the question must be formulated and asked.
Classic Hillman at his best , he resonates with the audience , & the jokes . I have never heard this one thanks for posting . I shall be searching for more gold ....
I found such joy in listening to these men bounce around the ideas, allow themselves to be moved......it was a bit shamanic. Hillman and Bly are heroes.
Alice Miller wrote that contempt for the child is the denial of self and its unfulfilled need. When the adult sees the need of the child it becomes a painful reminder of the adults unmet childhood needs. The denial and defenses against those needs that the adult used in their childhood make the adult harsh toward any need or perceived weakness, especially their own.
@@vidhikataria1364 That sounded harsh and cold blooded. In what manner do you mean that. Any quote can be taken out of context and misapplied. Where is the rest of the text and what is missing. Children give up on life when they have been severely abused and feel there is no hope. That sounded pathologically Narcissistic. Perhaps you would like someone with power over you to treat you like an object, something to be used, abused and discarded without remorse.
Miller isn’t a good example to quote.. she fucked up her son by writing about all this but didn’t follow it in her real life , I.e allowing her husband to beat the son and be abusive … sorry . Miller is a fraud
Dayuum! Does anybody realize what this man said? An embrace of these concepts would revolutionize parenting! No wonder society is so screwed up. If a clearer view and understanding of the child is a "portal" to understanding one's "destiny" as well as their divine origin, with a view of childhood as a temporary and essential phase of human development as opposed to a period of dependency, helplessness, uselessness and annoyance, think how different the world would be. But, it is what it is.
I am a musician. My daughter, when she studied at the conservatory, would ask me what to do with a certain phrase. I would think and siggest something. She would think and say "No, but I could do...". She never agreed with me but would come up with her own ideas. I don't know when or why I stumbled onto this way of parenting or teaching, but it was very fulfilling! My parents, who both lived to be in their late 90s, would sometime moan over a pain and Mom would say: Marilyn, don't get old!" " I replied: I intend to get very old and I want you to show me how to do it!" When they eere gone, I realised that thay HAD shown me. They showed me some things I SHOULD do and some things I should NOT do!
This is so beautiful, and is much needed, as Buddism by many is considered a path to enlightenment, but Buddism frames desires as the source of suffering, rather the fire that makes things happen. Beautiful, a wonderful stuff.
Jerome Goverman jerome that depends on which buddhism taught by which teacher in which lineage .... as Dukkha (translated as suffering) actually means a wheel wobble or out of balance and hence it is called suffering .... and the fire is used in many tantric practices such as turmo heat etc and vajrayogini...(transforming desire into bliss) there s a lot more to buddhism than meets the eye
dukka is only the first point ..... it means recognise your own suffering .... after that use everytihing in the path . have the desire without the sufering .. but I guess you get that
+Gillian Darling How is it that the wheel came to wobble? I cannot envision such through the Buddhist lens. Perhaps it is not discussed. I am truly ignorant, hence I ask. Thank you.
We're here now brother. Gotta take what's offered. Let us try to make this spark catch fire. That way the ones whonare still lost in the wilderness will see the light of the fire and come to meet us here.
Need to little boy to imagination (romanticism) - speak beyond I need beyond a lover. Will imagine (longing for more, glory) Read life backwards. Mother father allows your destiny to happen. Capacity to love/nurture Einstein failed maths because he knew he the maths was so scary when he saw it (like the bullfighter). Lover scared of love, etc Heart need arm need. Sees creavitiy, quiet part of me. Love simple Mother is obstacle - softness, love, can she give me a purpose? Wants divine fullfiment in love. Starts with human but ends with cosmic, world beyond from which it comes Child is father of the man, immensity of divine fulfillment located in child 2)Seeing through that you're identified . Realise boy who needs, you're their parent. Two from the one. I have a needy boy 3) parent the boy, ways of fathering the boy. Not poorly. Not mothering fathering also. Different, has to lie down a lot, needs special food. Taking care as a mother. Doesn't listen to boys real hunger. He wants more than ice cream, wants to be introduced to society, father's world. Don't lose the little boy. You want the little boy. Mum not evil - shadow- person no manners, stressed, rude. Tired. Me also shadow self in china, kid lack of care, tired -- Stay with need rather than object, feel need rather than woman. Until it says not only I need but also I want (with intensity) desire. Need feels empty, desire is filling. Need gets intense to become a want. Fear of desire is why you don't find purpose. Lion is desire and is frightening, is consuming, like fire, feel not up to it Woman dislike the dry crab
Dude? What the hell is wrong with everybody there? Was that flu season? All that coughing, and the slow guy asking stuff to be repeated. The ruffling of the papers! Crap! Glad I wasn't there. That coughing is annoying as hell. Good lecture, good insight.
There is still a missing piece, which is how to create a good internal father. This talk mentions having a dialogue with the father/son; but if there is no internal father then it's just the son talking to himself. Does anyone know of a talk that deal with this topic ? Thanks
Jerome Goverman Specifically, maybe not, but generally, I like John Lee a LOT. If you can find a program called Dads and Daughters, Fathers and Sons, I think you'll get something out of it. Just my 2 bits.
I think the position is - the father already exists, but some belief or attitude might be holding him back. Check out Robert Moore: his view is that the King IS the archetype of the father. Has beautiful descriptions of honouring and cultivating the King within. The book is King, Warrior, Magician, Lover - I pelted through it.
Jerome Goverman the pathology of a missing father is the complexity that furthers the journey. James is presenting the phenomenology of the problem, asking the deeper questions instead of filling the literal need.
Maybe when those to-be-famous kids had problems it was because they started out within their destiny, but that didn't fit into the accepted behavior of their childhood age group.
As I am mother, I have some observations that boys like to know they have protected, but please, don’t cover, they like in be in separation. But their have children’s heart in side, for ex, Oh! What’s do you or why ? With the surprising 🙃😍.They need someone especially mothers or someone to walk together and encourage. I may be in wrong, so sorry.❤️😁.
Hello Wainda, I actually was thinking something similar, in relationship towards the harshness that I heard directed at mothers from many of the men in the audience. Patriarchy distorts and perverts natural human qualities. Many of the qualities that exist within women, exist within men, and vice versa.The qualities of emotional availability, spontaneity, and love, are the necessary ingredients for good parenting, and are unacceptable in patriarchy --- Many young boys, often feel resentment towards their mothers, for the role they played in legitimizing their own trauma, which pretty much all dominator culture's force upon people. Smothering is not the same an emotional availability and atunment.
No, I think that many mother's enforce traditional gender roles, which requires the repression of basic human needs, and the shattering of a young psyche. I often think, that as a result of this many men have repressed anger at their mothers, because their collusion in patriarchy (obviously against their own best interests)
@@alexandernay5631 yes.. Alexander!. I am a older mother and I agree with you.!.. I think it's interesting when my son got mad at me.. when he was younger and then when it was time to pull away to go to the university! He would come home and Rant rave be real, share the pain go ahead share the pain. That's in all of us! I'm honored to the one he trusted, to Express the Injustice in this world and in our home. or just plain be mad . David Pitonyak once said, it's an honor, when somebody shows their stinky side of themselves! This happens because the father doesn't step up. He runs away and is scared to speak out to his son cuz he's afraid that he's not going to be like. So then the mother, unfortunately tries to fill those shoes, as stupid as that sounds. But somebody has to be there to hear the rage . I am honored . But saddened that the father's back down.. men need other men to Mentor them,.. and let the younger men, mentor back. Don't be dicks! That means you're not a mentor. Like Michael Meade says olders are not necessarily wiser.. and younger's and youth can be elders. Recently at one of Michael Meads Workshop, I saw several young man that were incredible, suffering, but growing through the pain.. there's an incredible generation of men are rising up, gravitating to Nature environment, healing poetry, ecopsychology, psychology, the Arts,music... The men's movement is moving, it's not good when a little boys that are in big suits, running the country.! . and there doesn't seem to be a man in the system that can Mentor this little boy, in the white house. perhaps mother Nancy Pelosi.!! Is able too!. Along with some other good men that are in there ! 🤞
@@suesalach113 Sue I really like what you said. I think I might be one of those boys you mention rising up to grow in to a mentorship role. My father had a difficult time providing that, he was a great financial provider but due to his own childhood experiences was not able to mentor or connect with us emotionally. Being able to find my own strength and forgiveness for myself and my parents.. I can't explain how great it feels to be able to start to heal and build a true relationship with my father now at 30 years old. He didn't have the same opportunities to explore these spaces, I am glad to be able to be here for him now and give back to the man that sacrificed as best he could for us. However imperfect it was, it's all the more meaningful to me now
Let them be men ! It's great, let the men, speak,rant rave , share the pain, tell stories, and recite poetry! They are sharpening each other! Like no mother can! Let them be.....Men!!
@@suesalach113 Well said Sue. This is how men are in a group together. They blurt out, they joke, they rib, they talk over each other sometimes. They're loud. Lots of coughs and paper crinkling, etc. Men are naturally that way, they're not concerned with being polished when they're all together in a group. Men need to be men! More mens groups would be beneficial in todays world.
I remember when I first entertained these notions, my son was 7… one afternoon I said son I think we should swap roles for a time, you can be the father and I will be the son…he thought about for a few moments and agreed…I had no idea where this was going to go… then he said to me “son I want you to take me to the shop and buy me an ice cream”. I said yes dad and did so immediately. Something happened in this exchanging of roles which introduced both of us into the realm of new possibilities…the lord of the 4 quarters did say “ask and you shall receive” and of course this true. The answer already exists but to know it the question must be formulated and asked.
Classic Hillman at his best , he resonates with the audience , & the jokes . I have never heard this one thanks for posting .
I shall be searching for more gold ....
Yep, nice to see his his kinda playful side!
I found such joy in listening to these men bounce around the ideas, allow themselves to be moved......it was a bit shamanic. Hillman and Bly are heroes.
Alice Miller wrote that contempt for the child is the denial of self and its unfulfilled need. When the adult sees the need of the child it becomes a painful reminder of the adults unmet childhood needs. The denial and defenses against those needs that the adult used in their childhood make the adult harsh toward any need or perceived weakness, especially their own.
“Some children die easily and willingly”- Alice Miller
@@vidhikataria1364 That sounded harsh and cold blooded. In what manner do you mean that. Any quote can be taken out of context and misapplied. Where is the rest of the text and what is missing. Children give up on life when they have been severely abused and feel there is no hope. That sounded pathologically Narcissistic. Perhaps you would like someone with power over you to treat you like an object, something to be used, abused and discarded without remorse.
Miller isn’t a good example to quote.. she fucked up her son by writing about all this but didn’t follow it in her real life , I.e allowing her husband to beat the son and be abusive … sorry . Miller is a fraud
@@michaeljensen4650Did you read “For Your Own Good” by Alice Milller? I suspect not.
The quote is about adults with no compassion for children and why they behave that way. You completely misunderstood me and overreacted.
Dayuum! Does anybody realize what this man said? An embrace of these concepts would revolutionize parenting! No wonder society is so screwed up. If a clearer view and understanding of the child is a "portal" to understanding one's "destiny" as well as their divine origin, with a view of childhood as a temporary and essential phase of human development as opposed to a period of dependency, helplessness, uselessness and annoyance, think how different the world would be. But, it is what it is.
Yes, we each go through necessary phases of growth from birth and until each phase is completed (met), we do not move on.
Like that “portal to our destiny ...” Accepting our parents as “our choice to complete our destiny”!
How do we learn to “live in harmony with our ‘entelechy,’ “ nurturing our acorn, “the seed core of our being”?
He doesn't say temporary. In this lecture he say you don't want the child within yourself to go away.
I miss you James Hillman
This was absolutely fantastic. Godspeed to you all on your journeys!
I am a musician. My daughter, when she studied at the conservatory, would ask me what to do with a certain phrase. I would think and siggest something. She would think and say "No, but I could do...". She never agreed with me but would come up with her own ideas. I don't know when or why I stumbled onto this way of parenting or teaching, but it was very fulfilling! My parents, who both lived to be in their late 90s, would sometime moan over a pain and Mom would say: Marilyn, don't get old!" " I replied: I intend to get very old and I want you to show me how to do it!" When they eere gone, I realised that thay HAD shown me. They showed me some things I SHOULD do and some things I should NOT do!
27:00 1st, 2nd and 3rd steps for working with the inner boy
This is so beautiful, and is much needed, as Buddism by many is considered a path to enlightenment, but Buddism frames desires as the source of suffering, rather the fire that makes things happen. Beautiful, a wonderful stuff.
Jerome Goverman jerome that depends on which buddhism taught by which teacher in which lineage .... as Dukkha (translated as suffering) actually means a wheel wobble or out of balance and hence it is called suffering .... and the fire is used in many tantric practices such as turmo heat etc and vajrayogini...(transforming desire into bliss) there s a lot more to buddhism than meets the eye
the Buddhist tantras teach that stuart
....
dukka is only the first point ..... it means recognise your own suffering .... after that use everytihing in the path . have the desire without the sufering .. but I guess you get that
+Gillian Darling How is it that the wheel came to wobble? I cannot envision such through the Buddhist lens. Perhaps it is not discussed. I am truly ignorant, hence I ask. Thank you.
basically bare wisdom became aware of itself and phenomenalized ... giving plenty of room for narcissism to take off and spin you (me) out of balance
"I'm still doing It" - Hilman
It irritates me to know this was being discussed before i was born and all of it still happened anyway.
We're here now brother.
Gotta take what's offered.
Let us try to make this spark catch fire. That way the ones whonare still lost in the wilderness will see the light of the fire and come to meet us here.
Bill Moyers and Robert Bly: A Gathering Of Men.
Such a priceless content - for free...
Thank you
NICE, & so timeless on this 3rd rock in the Homeland! MR. Boy!
Amazing. Everyone needs to join in on conversations like this around the world. God the world would be so much better off so quickly. 💪💪 PWRFUL!!
invaluable lecture! Thanks.
Oh mate James nearly said the V word to a room of bros at 25:46
This line in here is profound . 27:31 . Even before you decide to skip it, just come down to this time stamp for a trailer.
The Dragons of desire. One consumes and the other blesses.
Need to little boy to imagination (romanticism) - speak beyond I need beyond a lover. Will imagine (longing for more, glory)
Read life backwards. Mother father allows your destiny to happen. Capacity to love/nurture
Einstein failed maths because he knew he the maths was so scary when he saw it (like the bullfighter).
Lover scared of love, etc
Heart need arm need. Sees creavitiy, quiet part of me. Love simple
Mother is obstacle - softness, love, can she give me a purpose? Wants divine fullfiment in love. Starts with human but ends with cosmic, world beyond from which it comes
Child is father of the man, immensity of divine fulfillment located in child
2)Seeing through that you're identified . Realise boy who needs, you're their parent. Two from the one. I have a needy boy
3) parent the boy, ways of fathering the boy. Not poorly. Not mothering fathering also. Different, has to lie down a lot, needs special food. Taking care as a mother. Doesn't listen to boys real hunger.
He wants more than ice cream, wants to be introduced to society, father's world.
Don't lose the little boy. You want the little boy.
Mum not evil - shadow- person no manners, stressed, rude. Tired. Me also shadow self in china, kid lack of care, tired
--
Stay with need rather than object, feel need rather than woman. Until it says not only I need but also I want (with intensity) desire. Need feels empty, desire is filling. Need gets intense to become a want.
Fear of desire is why you don't find purpose. Lion is desire and is frightening, is consuming, like fire, feel not up to it
Woman dislike the dry crab
I heard Robert Bly's voice at the end of this answering a question.
Awesome insights.
I can't quit this job that is killing me.
I can't be the boss and make these fellows labor and suffer as I have.
All the coughing in the crowd gives me anxiety
38:50 also a crucial point
41:00 desire! (need, want desire)
24:32 crucial part starts
18:00 wow never thought of this before
I think this is more rap and rock. Most country is about having already got the need filled.
I think mothering is great.
Perfect.
Dude? What the hell is wrong with everybody there? Was that flu season? All that coughing, and the slow guy asking stuff to be repeated. The ruffling of the papers! Crap! Glad I wasn't there. That coughing is annoying as hell. Good lecture, good insight.
😂 ikr? Total coughfest
@@LasVegasSand_sthese boys are sick as dogs
Work on that annoyance
Funny that this was posted 5 years ago in 2020.
Did you let the fear get inside of you?
There is still a missing piece, which is how to create a good internal father. This talk mentions having a dialogue with the father/son; but if there is no internal father then it's just the son talking to himself. Does anyone know of a talk that deal with this topic ? Thanks
Jerome Goverman Specifically, maybe not, but generally, I like John Lee a LOT. If you can find a program called Dads and Daughters, Fathers and Sons, I think you'll get something out of it. Just my 2 bits.
Donny B Thanks !
I think the position is - the father already exists, but some belief or attitude might be holding him back. Check out Robert Moore: his view is that the King IS the archetype of the father. Has beautiful descriptions of honouring and cultivating the King within. The book is King, Warrior, Magician, Lover - I pelted through it.
Jerome Goverman the pathology of a missing father is the complexity that furthers the journey. James is presenting the phenomenology of the problem, asking the deeper questions instead of filling the literal need.
Really really good question. I know the issue personally :-/
18:00, 27:00, 31:00, 36:30, 37:30, 41:30
Is there a download link for this audio?
vampifrog You can download any TH-cam video and convert it into an audio mpg.
I use: OnLineVideoConverter.com
Maybe when those to-be-famous kids had problems it was because they started out within their destiny, but that didn't fit into the accepted behavior of their childhood age group.
6:01 lol 😂
Audience are too chatty.
I wish a certain spirt had sent this to me 18 months ago........such a shame.
Daddy’s
What a frustrating recording to listen to! Hillman could have said it all in half the time.
0
Mmmmmhhmmmmm hmmmmm 🤣🤣
Ha ha ha ha ha.....ha ha ha huh ha
As I am mother, I have some observations that boys like to know they have protected, but please, don’t cover, they like in be in separation. But their have children’s heart in side, for ex, Oh! What’s do you or why ? With the surprising 🙃😍.They need someone especially mothers or someone to walk together and encourage. I may be in wrong, so sorry.❤️😁.
Hello Wainda, I actually was thinking something similar, in relationship towards the harshness that I heard directed at mothers from many of the men in the audience. Patriarchy distorts and perverts natural human qualities. Many of the qualities that exist within women, exist within men, and vice versa.The qualities of emotional availability, spontaneity, and love, are the necessary ingredients for good parenting, and are unacceptable in patriarchy --- Many young boys, often feel resentment towards their mothers, for the role they played in legitimizing their own trauma, which pretty much all dominator culture's force upon people. Smothering is not the same an emotional availability and atunment.
I rather think you are confusing the archetypal mother for literal mothers...
No, I think that many mother's enforce traditional gender roles, which requires the repression of basic human needs, and the shattering of a young psyche. I often think, that as a result of this many men have repressed anger at their mothers, because their collusion in patriarchy (obviously against their own best interests)
@@alexandernay5631
yes.. Alexander!. I am a older mother and I agree with you.!.. I think it's interesting when my son got mad at me.. when he was younger and then when it was time to pull away to go to the university! He would come home and Rant rave be real, share the pain go ahead share the pain. That's in all of us!
I'm honored to the one he trusted, to Express the Injustice in this world and in our home. or just plain be mad . David Pitonyak once said, it's an honor, when somebody shows their stinky side of themselves! This happens because the father doesn't step up. He runs away and is scared to speak out to his son cuz he's afraid that he's not going to be like. So then the mother, unfortunately tries to fill those shoes, as stupid as that sounds. But somebody has to
be there to hear the rage . I am honored . But saddened that the father's back down..
men need other men to Mentor them,.. and let the younger men, mentor back. Don't be dicks! That means you're not a mentor.
Like Michael Meade says olders are not necessarily wiser.. and younger's and youth can be elders. Recently at one of Michael Meads Workshop, I saw several young man that were incredible, suffering, but growing through the pain.. there's an incredible generation of men are rising up, gravitating to Nature environment, healing poetry, ecopsychology, psychology, the Arts,music... The men's movement is moving,
it's not good when a little boys that are in big suits, running the country.! . and there doesn't seem to be a man in the system that can Mentor this little boy, in the white house. perhaps mother Nancy Pelosi.!!
Is able too!. Along with some other good men that are in there ! 🤞
@@suesalach113 Sue I really like what you said. I think I might be one of those boys you mention rising up to grow in to a mentorship role. My father had a difficult time providing that, he was a great financial provider but due to his own childhood experiences was not able to mentor or connect with us emotionally. Being able to find my own strength and forgiveness for myself and my parents.. I can't explain how great it feels to be able to start to heal and build a true relationship with my father now at 30 years old. He didn't have the same opportunities to explore these spaces, I am glad to be able to be here for him now and give back to the man that sacrificed as best he could for us. However imperfect it was, it's all the more meaningful to me now
Very interesting! And possibly the most irritating fucking recording I’ve ever heard.
This is nonsence
Rude audience.
projection maybe on your part?! Do you want to speak up sometimes and you don't?
Let them be men !
It's great, let the men, speak,rant rave , share the pain, tell stories, and recite poetry! They are sharpening each other!
Like no mother can!
Let them be.....Men!!
Sue Salach
Well said Sue!
@@suesalach113 Well said Sue. This is how men are in a group together. They blurt out, they joke, they rib, they talk over each other sometimes. They're loud. Lots of coughs and paper crinkling, etc. Men are naturally that way, they're not concerned with being polished when they're all together in a group. Men need to be men! More mens groups would be beneficial in todays world.
I've heard that there was animosity to Hillman in the men's group, as being too effette, intellectual, and god knows he tap danced.
Truly horrendous listening to all of the unhealthy men in the room cough.