Are Ballpark Villages ruining MLB cities...?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Just want to make sure everyone understands: this video is NOT about fan experience... ballpark villages are great for that. It's how they become part of the complex LEVERAGE between teams & cities that sometimes PERMANENTLY ruins their relationships.
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Just want to make sure everyone understands: this video is NOT about fan experience... ballpark villages are great for that. It's how they become part of the complex LEVERAGE between teams & cities that sometimes ruins relationships.
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I am crying just now it hurt me so I am mean it to me my own family can talk about it thanks that was in my dream it hurt me hard in my real dream is not my business help me out here.
Sports entertainment venues are great ways to enjoy watching & going out into centralize cities. Since you sadly have a suburban mindset just to go in & out of sports games rather than people to experience before & after fun live atmospheres. Silly rabbit smh.
Just a note, dodger stadium was built the direction it was because the view of the mountains was the prime view. The downtown LA skyline we know didnt exist when it was built.
so crazy that that skyline exitss on the opposite side of the stadium. huge disappointment
it was because you have a ballpark face west due to the sun shining into the eyes of the batters during the afternoon and evening
@polski1683 I mean yes obviously, but it also doesn't face directly north. From home looking to center it does face North East.
@@Naotakun A couple of years ago someone hit a long Home Run at Dodger Stadium and Joe Davis said "Look out Pasadena". Does the outfield really face Pasadena?
@@long-time-first-time yes it does
My issue with these new Ballpark Villages are that they are no longer an organic development around the ballpark where locals can benefit from the stadium. Rather, a property owner who has been there for years will be forced by a city to sell because they are in a zone in need of redevelopment and then the team or developers they are partnering with are the ones who make all the money. If they want the land, then they should have to pay top dollar on the open market.
“Where locals can benefit” is a huge statement. The people who own these new buildings are also the ballpark owners. They get tax payers to fund their new stadiums/hotels/entertainment areas and then reap the reward of rent/business while paying little to no taxes, and pocketing all the profits.
oh get a life...that didn't happen in st louis. Ballpark Village is awesome.
@@TheModestMallow exactly the people around the stadium cant even afford to go everyone comes in from the suburbs
@TheModestMallow exactly none but extremely rich guys benefit from the stadium financial wise it doesnt help the city at all how much does goverments spend on police for 1 game
I was going to comment exactly this until I read yours. So much north american development feels so unnatural, and therefore doesn’t have buy-in from the public, from local government, from local businesses. It just feels… fake.
For the last 20 years or so, I've lived within a 15 minute walk from Wrigley Field. It's a fantastic experience that benefits everyone, and it's a much better use of land than having massive parking lots. But for the life of me, I can't see why they can't pay for it themselves, or why taxpayers need to be on the hook for what's ultimately a private development. If they want the land, they can buy the land. And if they can't afford the acreage, then someone else can develop the space. Let it happen organically.
I don’t really get this guys point. I live near Am Fam field (Miller Park) and while I love tailgating there it’s a truly ugly concrete sea. Well last year our owner asked the city and state for multiple 100s of millions for renovations. I get not building the village right away, but if anything it generates more revenue for a team.
Here’s the problem with taxpayer money. Bulls and Bears will want taxpayer money too! Teams should pay for it
They need to do the neighboring land development in order to hoodwink the government officials. Study after study has shown that ballparks aren’t financially beneficial to cities and states. So they now need to do ballpark villages in order to justify the expense of a new ballpark. They can point to the new development and say they are employing people in permanent jobs and helping encourage new small businesses like bars and restaurants instead of just temporary construction jobs that only “helps” the local economy for two years.
@@darylwille4878you mean the white sox? i haven’t heard anything about the bulls wanting money, wouldn’t be surprised because jerry owns them too
Agree. Stan Kronke spent his own $5B of Sofi Stadium. The way it should be.
I understand the advantages from the business perspective. From the fan's perspective, though, it's a novelty with a long-term self-destruct sequence. The ultimate goal is to keep the fan as close to the stadium for as long as possible to make sure they give up as many dollars "for the experience" as possible. Sports has fully embraced the Disneyland strategy: Steadily increase the cost of participation to attract as many first-time and infrequent visitors as possible, while discouraging repeat business because, over the long-term, the average money spent by regular visitors per visit is far less. This pattern marks the end of days for non-corporate season ticket holders.
I've spent more as time has gone along with my local team(s). Now the Blue Jackets don't win much but the Arena District is awesome. Has our AAA and MLS stadiums. It's downtown. The village was already there... just upgraded
At first just got tickets in the upper section. Was awesome experience. I support a different team but love going all the time. Clippers too.
@@doomslayerdave That's cool to hear. I'm in Los Angeles. I used to frequent Dodger Stadium (even though I'm a Yankee fan; ex-wife's team), the Kings when they were at the Forum many years ago, and the Clippers. Now...between the ticket prices, the cost of parking, and finding my inner introvert, it's no longer worth the effort or energy.
Dropping $100 a game to see the Dodgers BEFORE they ended their World Series drought pre-COVID was ridiculous then. I remember when the pavilion seats were $10 when I was in high school in the late '70s. When I was married in the '90s, we would sit in the blue reserved seats for $18-22. You can't even park for that today. The rest of you...enjoy. I'm out
Perfectly said. It’s the shiny new ‘Fan Experience’ until the novelty wears off and prices skyrocket as the paint literally starts to chip away.
The Yankees brilliantly tied into the train system with their new stadium. For me that’s the ultimate fan experience. You could work a full day, catch the train down and be home by midnight without breaking a sweat.
I grew up a Mets fan but from ‘09-‘14, before my move to Houston, I exclusively went to Yankee games.
Consider the fans that drive a fair distance for their team's games, a couple hours or more. I, as one of those fans, enjoy the facts that there's more around the stadium to do. Keeps me from driving 3hrs for a 3hr ball game then having nothing else to do
Yeah this concept woulda made sense when I was going to one-off venues in my 20's planning on only going to these places once. When it comes to my local sporting clubs with their villages, I don't have the time or money to be wasting with all that. I just wanna get in quick, watch my game, drink some beers and be home at a reasonable time, but nope they want the one visit tourists to support it somehow.
I think teams saw the profit developers were making around the stadium and are now hoping to corral as many of those dollars for itself. It reminds me of a Wendover Productions video on Vail, Colorado and how the corporation Vail Resorts isn't just trying to make money on lift tickets & equipment rentals but on EVERY aspect of the ski town experience. It owns a transit company taking guests from the airport to the resort, restaurants around the resort, hotels near the resort, and if you want to buy a vacation home, Vail Resorts also controls the real estate agency that will sell you a property that Vail Resorts built. And it provides discounts to use all those amenities if you are a member, driving out competition. Like Vail Resorts, MLB teams are trying to turn their ballparks into theme parks, which means once they control the entire market they will raise prices and squeeze as many dollars as they can from fans, turning what was once an affordable outing for locals into a luxury experience for the well-to-do.
Went to countless braves games growing up. The area around turner field was super dangerous, especially at night, so the battery at truist is amazing compared to what we had. But the parking was so much easier when we had the big one right next to the stadium, just in a dangerous area
Ballpark Village is a modern day version of stadiums being part of the community. Forget the suburb stadiums of the 60s. Fenway, Wrigley and Yankee. That’s what Ballpark Village is trying to replicate. It also was created to fill in what was old Busch Stadium (which replaced Sportman’s Park. This is Busch 2 now). Otherwise there would be a big open area (probably a parking lot) separating the stadium from the rest of downtown St Louis. Stand alone stadiums are out. Unless you can squeeze a stadium into an already popular area (as the A’s are in Las Vegas) it becomes part of the plan to develop something around the stadium to bring that area a positive vibe.
As a San Diegan, i remember what that area was like Pre-Petco Park. It was mostly warehouses, stuff like that. Even Gaslamp was pretty run down for awhile, Petco really capped of the renewal project of the area.
Now all the illegal aliens and homeless have brought the area back full circle.
Petco has been a homerun for San Diego. A YUUUGE success.
There’s one in St Louis. October 2014 we came across it by coincidence We went to a Blues game and after the hockey game the NLCS was happening same night. The Blues game had an early start. Cardinals game was only half over. It was a fun atmosphere to hang around in after and peek into the Baseball game. I say keep em going
To the point of "sacrificing the convenience of the parking lot" and dealing with figuring out public transportation instead, let me just say that when public transportation is available it's almost always more convenient. I went to a concert at Levi's Stadium last year with some friends, I took the light rail which has a stop right outside and after the show I was on the train and heading home in probably 15 minutes. My friends who drove were stuck in the parking lot traffic for two hours trying to leave. Similar story going to SF from the south bay for a Giants game, I'll take Caltrain over a long drive, SF traffic, and $30 parking lots any day
Agreed 💯. As a Chicago native who has been to Wrigley Field several times, the way to get there is the Red Line "El" train. It has a stop a block from the ballpark. Trying to drive there frankly is nightmarish.
For an area like SF public transportation makes sense. No one is going to use it in Phoenix, Denver, Dallas, or even LA. Give me a large open accessible parking lot any day of the week. I never have any problems getting into or out of Anaheim Stadium.
Something super annoying about this is cars are so ingrained its hard to ignore this sense that exiting your car should mean 'arrival'. I could drive to my friend's house in the suburbs of Philly, take a subway ride to CBP, and save 30 minutes of waiting in traffic, but the idea of parking somewhere to get on a train just _sounds_ stupid even if it saves money and time.
They’re currently proposing a downtown ballpark in Kansas City and it’s completely idiotic simply because of our lack of public transit. They’re putting the cart before the horse.
@billl1127
Going to the AAC in dallas, public transportation is terrific. Plenty of people ride the train and theres a station less then 5 minutes away with free parking. Best way to go to a game
The reason they want the ball park village is they want more control of the area. In Atlanta Turner Field was still a good ballpark but the surrounding area became unsafe.
For me it has become a distraction. I’ve gone to many games where people show up but spend their time in the concourses drinking and eating and chatting and not in their actual seats. I’ve gone with groups of friends of like 7 people and 4 of them never come back up to the seats and just hang out elsewhere. Why even go at that point
They not real fans, which is good cause it shows it a attracts a wide range of people. But if you wanna seriously watch make some real fan friends.
I get it but why not have both Yenno.
@@troyarrington5492yeah I get it. I’d go down for an inning to get food and beer and head back up but too many people in places I’ve gone just stay in the village in the concourses and don’t watch the game etc. idk why it bugs me but it does especially when you watch it on tv and it looks dead but 10k people are inside the stadium hanging out
@@mysteryhombre81yes and no. These friends of mine are actual fans. They just go inside the stadium and sit in some restaurant inside the stadium and watch the game there or just chat it up. But yeah I see tons of casual fans there because it “was something to do” and they just hang out in some indoor bar near the bullpen
These are people that couldn't care about the game. This is why the concept drawings for the new A's team in Las Vegas show no seating in most of left and center field. All standing room only so people can just linger near the beer stands and look up if they hear the crowd cheering.
At Nats Park we used to have to walk through mentally ill homeless and feral addicts to get from the Navy Yard metro stop to the stadium, and now it is beer gardens and turf parks. A huge win for fans who travel from all over the DMV area. Whether you have to "white flight" the situation like Atlanta, or "gentrify" the situation like Washington, a family-friendly atmosphere is paramount.
Hey, excellent post. Two things: (1) Though I'm now retired, but as a Coast Guard officer, I got to read and comment on dozens of waterfront development plans especially if the ballpark was built on a waterway under federal jurisdiction, surprisingly most are. And (2) I was an avid minor league baseball junkie. That said, I could only comment on how things would effect the waterways even though I knew a lot more. What it comes down to is "extending the fan experience." Oh, quick story, in 2004 the Corpus Christi Hooks wanted to shoot fireworks over the shipping channel but we were worried that the embers could land in the tank farms in the shipping channel. So we agreed to close the channel during fireworks, ensure each oil company maintained a fire watch and start with a smaller round caliber of fireworks (shell size) and collect (empirical) data. I'll close and say all parties were highly professional.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t revenue outside the ballpark itself NOT subject to revenue sharing? So build these villages, at public expense; to keep the dollars in team control?
I thought this was a part of Cub development outside the Wrigley renovation but could be wrong.
Sales taxes and property tax revenue increase, along with hotel tax revenue.
i hate these things. its part of a bigger trend of the extinction of truly public spaces to spend time in. after ballpark village was built in STL, areas like Washington Ave and Lacledes Landing began to falter while tons of money poured in to invest in ballpark village which is inactive outside of baseball season.
First, Laclede’s Landing declined way before ballpark village was built. Second, Washington Avenue is very much still fine and going- it literally has the convention center to anchor it. And BPV is decently busy outside of baseball season if you’ve ever gone.
Quite literally the opposite. Cardinals built BPV on the lot of the old stadium…they destroyed nothing to build it. It’s also busy throughout the year with nightlife, restaurants, and the atrium space with live sports and events.
Colors field really cleaned up downtown Denver. Before that stadium you didn’t go downtown unless you had to.
Astros are in downtown. With literally nothing around the stadium. Apparently there are plans to fix that though
Yankee Stadium is located in a mixed-use residential neighborhood in The Bronx. It has restaurants & bars right across the street. You can also bring in outside food. NYC owns the stadium. The Yankees pay rent to the city. Citi Field is the opposite. The only thing close by the stadium is a rail yard, junk yards, tennis stadiums & a park. They’re supposed to be building a new soccer stadium for NYCFC next to Citi Field & a sports complex village. The Yankees co-own NYCFC. Right now NYCFC plays at Yankee Stadium & sometimes Citi Field when both the Yankees & NYCFC have home games.
Your comment is on point in regards to citi field but to be fair as a Mets fan if you walk about 10-15 minutes west or East you’ll end up in the heart of corona queens or flushing queens where there’s plenty of bars nightclubs restaurants hotels and shopping. Corona queens has great Latin food from Mexican to Dominican and flushing is the heart of the east Asian community for queens most notably Chinese and Koreans. It’s about a half mile walk or about 1KM. The immediate area surrounding citi field I’ll admit needs work done but the city is working on that and Steve cohen. Also people can ride the (7) train just 1 stop west or east to the locations I just mentioned and it’s only like a 2 minute subway ride if people don’t wanna walk the 10-15 minutes.
I think they’re great. Anything to get rid of the sea of parking. Make stadiums part of a community, not just a building in the middle of nowhere surrounded by parking lot.
Ive been to quite a few midwest stadiums and havent done anything in the ballpark villages and such outside of walk through them to get to the stadium.
Nice topic. No one solution will fit in all of these cities. But we should probably expect these ballpark theme parks to be more of a common place. Some might have a historic while others will be a forced theme. It will be like a City Walk or Downtown Disney, but people can live there too.
Having arrived by both car and train to a sporting event, I preferred the journey from the train station through the city fabric on the way to the game. The return was also festive (if the team won) on the train ride back.
A district around a ballpark is also more inviting in the offseason.
I am sure the owner would prefer to have control of the rents for those units or restaurants that may have a view on the playing field.
I'd like to see more municipally owned teams. It would solve the threat of relocation, and the cities, since they collect taxes, could recapture the value to the surrounding neighborhoods as they develop. The neighborhoods could develop organically and you'd get more small businesses and restaurants making money rather than it all going to the teams.
The idea of stadium related development isn't limited to MLB, and two perfect examples are right here in New England. Patriot Place with its shopping and entertainment options is a money spinner for Robert Kraft, while there is also new development in the footprint of the old Boston Garden right in front of the current arena. Transit access was improved at both sites.
Curious why Philadelphia wasn’t used in any of this video. We were the start of this whole thing. First with JFK, the spectrum and later Veterans stadium all in the same area. Now on the same property we have Linc, CBP and Wells Fargo along with the Xfiity live complex and a recently added casino. There are now also plans to expand a new complex in the area which will be in time for when the World Cup comes here.
One thing that people tend not to realize about the cash cow that is Busch Stadium’s Ballpark Village is that the building of it wasn’t instant or even somewhat gradual, it was a slow process that started a few years before Busch Stadium III on probably some sort of building plan and took a good while after the stadium was built for the adjacent village to come to fruition while other parts of the development are still being built today. Wanting a Ballpark Village isn’t a bad thing and I’d say the development has been a boon for the city of St. Louis bringing in over a billion dollars every year. The problem is that these organizations want the process to be instant and with projects that large expecting instant results in any given city is just unrealistic and it would have been an unrealistic expectation here in St. Louis as well had that been the plan.
The economy was really bad in 2008 and the Cardinals ownership had to wait until conditions improved to get moving fully on Ballpark Village. The 2009 All Star Game was in St. Louis and that site was barren at that time.
STL’s ballpark village only received property tax incentives (as has nearly every other construction in STL for decades) and was entirely privately funded. It took so long because it was built in an era where the US had 2 recessions.
@@rorypaul153 Yet all of these owners think that the success of Ballpark Village was some instant success that can be replicated with instant results in any given city which is so far from how the actual success came about in St. Louis.
As a St. Louisan, I would have been fine with a massive, connected, secured parking lot. I need a safe place to park more than I need an expensive place to go before and after the game.
The neighborhood where Coors field in Denver was previously very rough neighborhoods, amidst a swath of train yards.
One was built on site of Riverfront Stadium in Cincinnati, it’s between Great American Ballpark and Paycor Stadium and it’s called the Banks. The city built it, not the teams, but there’s a couple nice bars and restaurants in there that enhance the GameDay Experience.
Doing this in Boston right now as well. Fenway Corners was largely developed by the team and to get access to subsidization, ownership had to put up 150 million upfront.
Not really sure why though, the area around Fenway has always been lively and an experience in and of itself. There are some less than stellar areas out beyond centerfield as far as the experience goes, I’ll concede.
Maybe it's different in the US than here in Canada but I feel teams need to lean on the side of parking. I live in Edmonton about a 20 minute drive from Rogers Place (where the Oilers NHL team plays) taking public transit to the game would take me 35-40 minutes which isn't the worst but coming home late at night from the game can take me an hour and a half plus to get home which is absolutely terrible considering I could drive home in twenty minutes. I also know that many of the fans come from the surrounding communities, some more than an hour drive from the city, I can only imagine the hell that those close enough to have transit options (Sherwood Park, St. Albert) face trying to get home after the game let alone those from communities an hour away that don't have transit options (Drayton Valley, Whitecourt ect.) meaning they drive to the outskirts of the city to get public transit to the game have after the game; probably an hour and a half to get back to their vehicle only to drive an hour home and all because the arena has fuck all for parking because it's downtown Edmonton. Oilers should have built the arena on the outskirts of the city, specifically the south end where they are expanding transit, and built it with massive parking lots; it would have helped the south side develope quicker and have been easier for both Edmontonians and those living outside of Edmonton to get to and from, not to mention it would been closer to the airport for traveling team, and heck maybe fans wouldn't get mugged by homeless people as soon as they walked out of the rink. People really were smarter 50 years ago when stadiums were built off the freeway with tons of parking .... I'd rather wait in my warm secure vehicle for ten minutes for traffic to ease out of the parking lot than stand at a dark freezing bus stop for forty minutes waiting for my bus home
This is such a bad take I don’t even know what to say
@@rorypaul153 do you even live in Edmonton to understand the situation? Not everyone who goes to Oilers games lives downtown only is only a couple short LRT stops away from home.
Living in southwest Edmonton myself, I just google mapped my transit route home from Rogers Place leaving there at 9:50pm which would be a realistic time to leave if the Oilers started at 7pm tonight .... I would get home at 11:30pm, that's 1 hour 40 minutes to get home. That would be busing to West Ed Mall and transferring with a 20 minute layover so hopefully it isn't -30c outside, and hopefully the bus to West Ed isn't late because if I missed the bus home from West Ed that bus doesn't come again for another hour (then it'd be 2 hours 40 getting home).
All that to get home when I could have drove and parked at the minimal arena parking and it would only take me 25 minutes to get home and I'd be home at 10:15pm. Alternatively though I could drive to a southside LRT station, but the only one that has a fair bit of parking is South Gate which on a Saturday the mall would be very busy and parking there at 5-5:45pm (so I would get to the game before 7pm puck drop) would be more limited. Anywho that way I'd have a 30 minute LRT ride back to South Gate and 10 minute drive, getting home at 10:30pm.
The same thing applies making all those times one hour later for those late 8pm start times. The only difference is my transfer bus home from West Ed Mall is the last one for the night so if I miss it because the first bus is running late then uber/cab is my only option to get home.
Sure maybe if you live just off the LRT line and only have a couple LRT stops to get home then you don't care about the parking situation but this for me is a major factor of why I never go to games and even turn down free tickets for games against my favorite teams. Transit situation was very similar when the Oilers played at Rexall Place but at least their was a fair bit of nearby parking at Rexall. I know several others from Edmonton and nearby communities like Leduc, Drayton Valley, Whitecourt, Spruce Grove ect. who completely agree with me
@@chrismac5560 they’re not gonna build more parking just so some moron who chooses to live in the suburbs can go to a game every now and then
@@rorypaul153 Completely agree with chrismac's take. Bigger and more open the parking lots the better.
They're doing the same thing in Queens where Citi Field (and previously Shea Stadium) is located. Right now it's surrounding by a parking lot next to highways and the chop shops in Willets Point. Now all the chop shops are gone and they're going to build a new commercial and residential neighborhood in Willets Point, along with a new stadium for New York City FC of MLS, and Mets owner Steve Cohen is planning to build and entertainment district where the parking lot is.
SunTrust Park (Truist Park) launched this into popularity after the success in Atlanta was shown.
The Patriots started the concept like 10 years ago with "Patriot Place".
Meanwhile in Montreal, Expos fans are still waiting for baseball to comeback.
It’s not just baseball or even professional sports. The University of Kansas is rebuilding Memorial Stadium with a Gateway District with hotel, restaurant and event center. Sold as a way to make the facility a year round use center.
The essay, which was more thorough than I expected, absolutely missed that this trend in stadium development extends beyond baseball. So-Fi Stadium is merely the centerpiece of a much more ambitious project, which I believe still has pieces yet to debut. In MLS, the new stadium for Inter Miami envisions hotels, apartments, and a venue for youth sports that will draw people to shops and restaurants even on non-event days for the stadium. Those are two of the more high-profile stadiums in the country, and they would have added something to this piece. Likewise, the proposed MLS stadium in Queens--being built across the street from an MLB stadium--also includes other development intended to revitalize an jndesirable neighborhood.
In Atlanta, they have the Battery-in Philly, they throw batteries at the outfielders…
I’m on the fence. On one hand this seems to be the trend as to where ballparks are going, on the other hand I don’t know how fun it’d be to have a portion of the exiting crowd, full of beer yelling “wooooooo” “ Let’s go Dodgers, let’s go” I mean that already happens this might be an incentive for those rowdy people to linger…and they will 😂
Drunk people are the best customers. They tend to be reckless spenders.
I love listening to fans here in KC about if the Royals move there won’t be any parking lol it’s all they know hahaha
No, they are not, Marietta got the Braves and the city is THRIVING big time, when I first came here, that side of town was just a suburb of Atlanta now it's basically it's own city and that's ALL OWED to The Battery.
Bro... Marietta has been a huge city for decades, there's a major air force base 10 minutes from downtown lmao. The reason the braves moved there from South Atlanta is because the infrastructure and population was already there. But yes, the battery (which is in Smyrna btw) is a really nice addition to the stadium atmosphere.
lol that is in Cobb county not Fulton. Don’t know why people call everything Atlanta
has nothing to do with success or the experience of ballpark villages... those are all great for fans... it's the expectations of teams placed on cities to DO projects like this. the very first comment i made.
Because it is the Atlanta area, it is two miles from the city limits, maybe less, and it has an Atlanta postal address.
The battery is fun until cobb county pop u with a DUI.
Detroit is an interesting example of the OPPOSITE of what you're talking about. If you look at pre-war aerial photos of then-Briggs Stadium, the stadium is in an ordinary residential neighborhood. By the time I started going to their games in the 1970s, it looked a lot more like Angels stadium or Kauffman stadium's sea of parking. In another reverse of today's norm, the stadium was right by a freeway, but the stadium was there first. The Tigers' current stadium, downtown, did engender lots of adjacent development (not least, the Lions' and Red Wings' stadiums). I haven't driven to a game there in many years (it's 2000 miles away from me, now) but I used to park at Greektown Casino and take the People-Mover to the stadium. There IS ground-level parking around Comerica Park but nothing like there was at the old stadium.
I lived at the battery, way better than shooting gallery known as turner field
Better environment, absolutely.
I kind of like what they did in Philadelphia...the huge sports complex isn't going anywhere, but they added Xfinity Live to the parking lot which is perfect for anyone who wants pregame food or beverage.
I agree the Sports Complex in Philly makes total sense, and the Casino added to the vibe.
And while there is a massive amount of parking, it's actually within the city grid which makes it even more palatable
Not interested in overpriced food and drinks at a ballpark village. I want to go to the game, enjoy it and leave. I was there when Camden Yards opened. Everything was so much more expensive than at Memorial Stadium...and you got less for your money. Would rather go to game at Oakland venue with parking lot and Bay Area Rapid Transit access. PacBell park is a tourist trap with overpriced amenities around it. Most of the fair weather Giants fans don't really watch or know the game.
New Orleans may have been one of the first ones. Good thing about SD is it's a football stadium, not a multi-use. When it's time to upgrade, they upgrade a football stadium. But other events can be held in it and basketball too for s ports. Mulit-use ended up being a bad idea because it's not football or baseball when it's time to try to upgrade it. You just demolish it and get something else.
Mjwings3..... thats funny I didn't know New Orleans had a MLB team ???😂😂😂😂
I think the "baseball village" concept was lightning in a bottle, whose time has already passed. St. Louis and Atlanta - among others - just happened to fall into that design fold sweet spot pre-pandemic where retail was still strong and the numbers still worked. Fast forward to today, CRE numbers are abysmal almost everywhere, and although we've seen weak markets before, there has been so much in the way of disruptive technology (food delivdery apps) and demand destruction (inflation, high retirement levels, work from home) that I don't see these types of retail clusters (ballpark or not) pulling their own weight financially anymore. Not that restaurants are going away, or bars, or souvenir shops, but the rental baseline is for sure going to crash, and the vacancy rates are so high that there will inevitably be instability problems with security, maintenance, etc...The ones that are already there will probably be fine, but if they aren't yet built, I think the financing appetite is going to be either nonexistant, or prohibitively expensive to recover costs...As for the demand destruction part of it, somebody please explain to me how, in this inflationary economy with a high labor shortage and overhead, how I can justify spending $12 on a beer just to be next door to a ballpark? Or buy an "authentic" MLB jersey for $125, when 70% is just for the licensing fee? Or the guy selling that jersey being able to pay $32 per square foot for space on weak sales?...
I can't speak to Atlanta, but only a tiny percentage of St. Louis' ballpark village is retail.
@@joerapovast majority is residential + office +restaurants
@@rorypaul153 True, and all of those RE markets are weak and interdependent. And that was my point...
I'm all for a "Ballpark Village", if the team owner funds the entire build. Not the taxpayer. But without the huge open parking lots the experience becomes an ordeal. I simply don't bother to go anymore if parking is a hassle.
I'm starting to see this in the NHL with the Ducks' renovation of the Honda Center. The Project is called "OCVibe". I worry this is a trend that will bleed into all the sports.
It should. Stop the car culture nonsense
Seems that since Oakland and the A’s own the coliseum land, that they could have built a ballpark with a village right there. I know the coliseum area isn’t the best part of town, but it may have created positive growth.
The Red Sox have had most of the Fenway as a village. Of course the team doesn’t see that money but they want to buy the surrounding properties and make that area even more expensive than it is now.
I lived three blocks away.
Same thing with the Cubs and Wrigleyville.
Thanks Brodie!
Growing up in 2 hrs north of NYC, the Meadowlands and Shea were our sports sanctuaries. Easy access. Easy parking.
Then the Yankees got the train stop in ‘09. A baseball fan’s dream.
Now in Houston, it’s a similar vibe. The similarity? The game is your destination and the surrounding space naturally supports its needs.
Then again, I’m not one for the ‘all day’ experience. I’m the guy that says, “Hold my space in the line…see ya at game time.”
If you don’t care for these features then simply just don’t go. I love them! I’ve been to Texas live and I’ve been to the St. Louis ballpark village and each of them has a baseballism store. If you’re in St. Louis go to the soulard village that’s where I pregamed at they even have transit buses that will pick you up and take you to the stadium. Afterwards I hit up paddy’os just outside the ballpark village. You still have options
They only make sense if there is nothing around the stadium site.
@Brodie-Brazil: "I know folks, who smoke crack to make more sense than you do" - ex convict, Austin Powers 3, Gold Member 2002.
It depends on the ballpark physical location. Petco Park has condos all around mixed in with restaurants. It revialized a really bad East Village. Howard Terminal would be awesome with homes, shops, restaurants.
I went to Dodger Stadium in 1963 through the 80s and 89 was the last time. Most of downtown wasn't like that and what there was got covered in Smog (see modern Shanghai) so thick sometimes it burned your eyes and throat. But LA you have to have a parking lot, same for the Angels. The whole place IS a doggone parking lot.
Braves moved out of downtown as nothing ever took off around Turner Field. Was built for the Olympics and lots of promises made, but never kept is my understanding. At one point they were talking about stopping the shuttle bus from the MARTA station. I don't remember what happened, but they still ran the bus. I always drove as I was coming from out of state after my son moved out of Georgia. Cobb County was actually better for me, instead of I-85 I took I-75 from Asheville, NC.
The Braves never could have done as much as they did without their owner, Liberty Media also investing in the Battery with I forget what all they had there including their offices and brought in high level tenants like ComCast which occupies a 9 story office bldg. Not to mention they built across from a popular Mall. Everything named Braves is owned by Liberty Media. I don't think they'll ever sell the Braves now.
Here’s the problem. Other parks and organizations are trying to accomplish what happened naturally in other parks etc…Wrigley is a perfect example. You can’t fake Wrigley Field and Wrigleyville because it’s a real neighborhood with humans that live there and it adds charm to the experience. When you try to replicate this by putting up buildings and high rises just for kicks is ridiculous. That’s where I have a problem. It doesn’t have to be a ball park village. Try something new man. Innovate. Go become the next Wrigley or Camden Yards. Another park which happened naturally. They thought Camden was going to fail big time.
Plus all of these owners want all of these developments to be built instantly whereas Ballpark Village in St. Louis took shape many years after Busch Stadium III was built and continues to be built to this day. The problem lies in wanting instant results, not wanting to replicate the success of Ballpark Village which is fine to want that.
All the talk of teams moving if they don't get what they want is a can of worms I think Manfred opened and I bet he's sorry now he let the A's off the hook on the relocation fee. I don't think there are too many places teams can move to and get what they want anyway. Orlando is one, but Salt Lake City? About as big a market as Vegas and isolated even more. Although I think they'd support any team named the 'Salt Lake ____' baseball team. I also wouldn't be surprised if the Rays moved to Orlando.
Surprised you didn't include Camden Yards and/or Rogers Centre in the group with Denver and San Francisco
If candlestick park was elsewhere
Did Willy ever hit one into McCovey cove ?????????????
Different sport but this was promised in Detroit when little Caesars arena was built and the village never happened
What a con job the Ilitches pulled off with “District Detroit.” Now, they’re trying to extend it with Stephen Ross…
Nothing going on in downtown Detroit on game night for the Wings, Lions, or Tigers.
Typical Ilitch family nonsense.
I think they also forgot HOW to/or for some reason don't WANT to build a CiRCULAR stadium, or any other cicular buildings.
Brodie the A's are GONE
This is a very good observation. I also made the connection where the Cardinals were the first to design a new stadium after the luxury tax was created in 2002. PETCO was already in the works when that became a thing. I think the luxury tax is one of the major reasons why new ballparks are starting to become villages because it is revenue that is not counted towards the luxury tax.
So glad they didn’t build one of these villages next to a new stadium for the Niners at Candlestick Point. That area is truly a gem now, a real can’t miss destination…
Asking the public for tax money should be a crime. If you’re going to do that then they should reserve a suite for regular working people, that pay taxes, to attend a game in style. They already gouge people for taxes, concessions, tickets and merchandise. These teams must be held accountable. The only good thing LA has ever done was not pass on the tax to its citizens for a stadium built for the rich. They made the billionaire owners pay for their own stadium and arenas if they wanted to be in LA, that’s why we went 21 years without NFL.
I don't think taxpayers should be subsidizing billionaires' stadiums, villages or parking lots.
St. Louis needs this. Area around the stadium was not safe. Also Busch stadium was dirtier than I thought it would be. Was not impressed.
Watch out for the shysters but ballpark capacities are shrinking and ballpark villages are in vogue not demand. Why not have a winning team and market players to draw fans to the stadium? Who says you can’t go home?
I haven't watched yet but I will say imho that ballpark villages ruined baseball and sports in general for me. Sports were tailgating events for us in our area. It was cheap, easy and everyone enjoyed themselves, regardless of team, wealth or class status. These new ballpark villages seem like you have to have $$$-$$$$ burning a hole in your pocket for one night out. The only caveat I have is when I attend concerts at these venues, then I do truly enjoy the atmosphere the villages create pre and post show.
Crazy how all of these places still have large parking lots you can tailgate at
I think Atlanta did a great job with theirs, but yeah it creates crazy traffic for locals on game day.
Remember reading about the St. Louis National League team in the 1890s. Owner decided building all type of entertainment around the ballpark would draw in more people. It did, but people went to the entertainment and not the ballpark and the team had to be sold or some such thing.
thanks for your insights from the netherlands!
Broadie where would the Yankees fit a ball park village? Does Steinbrenner relocate?
Good example of how this works horridly: Detroit, Little Caesars Area and 'District Detroit'
dont forget rogers in canada they did a big renovation ps all i have seen the last two years is they have made more bars and the people seem to watch the game but they might have a reason not to watch as my opinion is the team is going down hill dont want to spend any money
Braves would be one of those cheapo garbage teams with out the revenue that the Battery Atlanta brings in.
But if all these sports teams create all this revenue for the cities then where does all that revenue go as our taxes never go down. Just like all the lottery revenues - someone is pocketing the money. It is all a lie to us taxpayers.
You're ignoring the public sector side of this Brodie. More and more council and governments are skeptical of the economic benefits of sports stadiums. Whilst it might be complicated its becoming a necessity in order for politicians to justify the public spend on a stadium.
It's only really an issue if the owners a huckster/the city is full of corrupt scamming politicians/The broader local population doesn't give actually give a damn.
i certainly understand the public side. that's why i'm suggesting it's not fair to throw on lawmakers... a team wants something because it's been done in other places... and if they don't get it, they'll leave.
@@brodiebrazil You've said it's not fair on lawmakers, yet in many cases its lawmakers (and the public) who demand social and economic benefits from stadiums.
You're framing this as it's "just what the owners want" but it's more complicated then that. Baseball doesn't exist in a vacuum.
There's plenty of developers besides ball teams who would love to get their hands on undervalued land in downtown areas.
Mixed use is all the rage in city planning right now and if lawmakers can't get it from a ball team they will sell to someone else.
@@brodiebrazil Maybe I'm wrong. I thought Louis was saying that public officials in some places might actually prefer a more elaborate proposal, if their public can see some broader public benefits. But local politics are always complicated, murky and unique to each city. KC's latest plan is smart to locate next to the existing Power & Light entertainment district and the arena. It also extends the new South Loop park an additional three blocks eastward, reconnecting parts of downtown long-divided by a freeway ditch. This would be a valuable benefit. Here the new plan is smaller and simpler than earlier proposals, and seems less greedy. It may have a better chance of passing.
Ballpark villages are necessary because the revenue from the businesses in the village pays for the stadium. This is the way now.
Ballpark village in STL killed many of the surrounding bars and restaurants that were long-time standards. There is now zero traffic around there, unless there is a baseball game because people view it as an extension of the stadium and not an individual experience.
I was against the Battery in ATL at first, but it's a pretty f****** dope atmosphere
The 5th Amendment states that no public funds shall pay for a private development without proper compensation. Politicians for years have given money based on potential tax revenue and increased tourism. Governments should have economists making these decisions and figure what fair compensation. I figure if an MLB team is asking for $1 B the county should ask for 40% of the team.
They have done these studies. They already know these stadiums are not a great benefit to the public. They are a drain on public funds. Just look at the state of the city of Oakland.
See Kelo v City of New London in which the Supreme Court ruled that use of eminent domain totaled property from one private owner & turn it over to another private owner does not violate the Takings Clause of the 5th Amendment
......in Oakland we just wanted a ballpark.
I wish they would have, in the. 2017, just demoed the park and built a baseball-specific one in its place.
No that area in San Diego was so old and dangerous still in 2 blocks south of the ball park
I live hour north of KCMO I’d stay in the hotel for the experience.
Which is one of the reasons why I don’t want Potomac Yards to be turned into a stadium complex in Alexandria, Va. It is going to be a disaster.
Even tho most of what this video says is wrong?
Wow, Dodgers messed that one up, yeah, would have been a nice view of downtown if they flipped that.
Cincy did the same. First went in 2009. Not much to do around the stadium. Went back in 2023. They have The Banks. Apts, restaurants, outdoor gathering spaces. Makes going to a game more enjoyable.
Great report Brodie. I grew up in Chicago - Cubs fan and LA. One thing to love about Wrigley is that it's a part of the neighborhood. They had the "baseball village" thing happening long before it was a fad. Before the game/After the game drink, eat, hang out all walking distance from the Friendly Confines. Contrast to Dodger Stadium - a beautiful venue in itself and great place to watch a ball game but it is an island surrounded by a parking lot ocean. After the game - get in your car and wait... NFL - at least you have tailgating for the pre-game camraderie but for MLB games not so much with the "island" stadiums.
dude, you spent 11 minutes rambling before even getting to your point of why you think it ruins cities and then didn't even deliver a compelling argument. This is unfortunate man. The entire time I was just waiting for you to get to your point and it felt like it never got there
Completely agreed. He paints gigantic parking lots in a more positive light than stadiums with actual things near them, and then his point is something along the lines of “they’re bad if they don’t happen cus teams can move” as if the problem is solely on the development and not on every owner thinking they deserve a new stadium or development in the first place, which is far more nuanced of a discussion.
I'm surprised with the parking lot issues. This was a source of revenue, especially baseball, with 81 home games a year
Too long. That could have been a 3 minute video.
Its not a ballpark village is just good urbanism. Having a sense of place, walkability, mixed use, and transit.
Teams have to do this when Scott Boras is representing 90% of the best players. It’s just a fact. If teams have to put out payrolls 200+ million dollars annually, the revenues have to keep up with it.
Sorry buddy. The teams are not chasing high salaries. The values of the teams have risen exponentially with tv revenues and the salaries are chasing the billion dollar values of the teams. You have gotten this matter upside down in your head.
@@tompraska6858 the “value of the team” is completely irrelevant 😂 doesn’t help the cost of the players in order to run a successful team. If you buy a stock, and it triples, how rich are you if you don’t sell it exactly? Ffs
Orioles an Gnats have villages; Toronto when the hot*l was the base.
Go just a couple blocks from the Giants stadium, and it starts getting scary. I remember it being a lot livelier 10-12 years ago, but now everything is shuttered up most of the time.
Here in Denver next to Coors Field they built McGregor Square with bars restaurant and a hotel. I love it!!! Before going to Rockies games I go to the bars in there then the game. Its great for the economy. I know and have spoken to the bartenders and they live off the game days
Going to Coors Field ~10 years ago was a much better experience. Better on-field product and there used to be all sorts of places on Blake Street before the Covid plandemic to enjoy pre and post-game. Current Denver is a cesspool of overpriced, empty buildings, and government supported via tax-payers drug-shooting homeless maggotry. Plus, they built all of these self storage units behind the stadium to block the mountain view. It's Colo-fornia now. McGregor Square is very nice, but way overpriced, I think it wouldn't even be necessary if it weren't for how shitty Lo-Do has become in the past five years. I used to love downtown Denver, it was a great place full of life and easily accessible, now I avoid Denver proper like the plague. As a Coloradan, there's a million places I'd rather be.
I’ve only really been to Fenway, so I’m obviously gonna like the village