BMW M62 Engine - Save your Timing-Chain Guides!
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The Timing-Chain Guides on the BMW M62 and M62TUB are notorious for failing - and that leads to all sorts of problems such as bent valves and holes in the valve covers!
Instead of waiting for the guides to fail why not spend a few quid ensuring that they last a good 200K - 300K miles? This video goes through the procedure to ensure long life from the guides.
#TimmsBMW #BMWM62 #TimingChain #ChainGuides - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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It’s amazing that people who buy these cars get cheap and put off oil changes. When I was in VoTech school in high school they told us,oil is cheap,engines are not. Change your oil every 2000 miles. Well, that was 1970,oil is much better today. I change it when the engine manufacturer specifies,maybe even a little earlier. I’ve never had a problem with tensioners.
Too true!
What a wealth of knowledge, thank you so much!!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the great info! While I absolutely adore the E31, when I inevitably need to do this on my E38, I’ll be very grateful for being able to easily remove the air box and that there is no charcoal canister there :p.
Glad to help! Yes, a lot easier on the E38 that's for sure!
I followed your advice many years ago for 540i and 840i
never had timing guide issues. no one mention this unless they really know these engine
Thanks!
Hiss you'd car running?
Is 10w60 engine oil good for 540i E39?
Yes, as long as it is a semi or full synthetic
Hi tim what exact oil do recomened for a m62 4.4 tub its done 306,000 kms took oil pan off every thing looks good no plastic in the pan changed the tensioner been using 5/30 oil fuuly synthetic but i recon a touch heavyer oil would be better im all ears what exacly you recomend
I use 10W-40, we have about the same mileage on our cars!
4:07 Did you mean to say "change the oil every year, at least" ? (and a huge thanks for these videos!!!!!!)
Thanks! Yes, every year or 10,000 miles whichever comes first
Cheap in produce piece of crap not engine.
From trybologikal point of wiew it is mistake in design.
Roller chain are very bad in cooperation whit guiding.
Here chain is long, has force from both heads and drives through banana guide.
3 mistakes in one.
Flat tapped lifters are another cheap and bad thing in this engine.
It is one big cost reduction not engine.
Look at ford 4.6 V8 or other good V8.
Right head has own timing with short tooth type chain.
Left head the same.
Each more expensive but better and shorter chain has force from only one head, tooth chain makes bigger contact and smaller tension on guiding.
It can survive 3times longer even when you care about BMW engine.
Last 30 years BMW philosophy went in to making cheap in produce piece of crap.
You are not wrong, fortunately they went for two chains on the N62, just a shame about the new problems they introduced!
To add to my comment just now, was only half way through...you didnt show the tensioner coming out or being replaced...intentional? You just had the caption saying it was difficult to get the tensioner out. British humour.
I didn't remove the tensioner in this video as I didn't have to - it's a bit of a pain to get out and I have done it three times now trying different tools!
Hi, you mentioned, that you have m60 in your e30. I have the same one. Could you share with your opinion about this statement, the more heavier engine the worse driving has a car. And maybe your answer would be better to give according to e30. Thanks for responding
I had an M60 in my E32 - my E31 has the M62. However, compared to the M30 the M60 and M62 ARE lightweight!
I actually did the timing chain tensioner when I first bought my Range Rover L322 4.4 M62 @ 113,000 miles. I gave it a big overhaul inc all gaskets, PCV valve, silicone hoses etc. I’ve now got 146,000 miles on it & wondering about when I should change the tensioner again? I don’t have any signs of timing chain guide fail, no fault codes but vanos is a little noisy but has been since I bought it.
As long as you keep up with regular (1 year, 10,000 Miles) oil changes it should last for another 100,000 miles Paul!
Timm, Thanks for the education on a failing timing chain. It definitely exhibited the timing misfires on my M62 withOUT VANOS due to the lower guide failing. My mechanic didn't recognize it at first because on later VANOS models it tries to compensate with the variable cam timing. Not a terrible job just lots of bits and time.
This is great information. Maybe a bit long for young people with short attention spans, but it was a great explanation of the actual root cause of this common problem on our engines.... I'm currently working to replace my disintegrated guides (at almost 250K miles, which may be the world record on original guides?) on my E53 4.4i. Beautiful E31, by the way!
250k isn't bad Mike, well done for keeping it going that long!
“Young people with short attention spans” why young people, why not anyone with a short attention span?
Yeah why young people? Lots of us aren't part of the TikTok generation no attention span clan.
Mike, ill assume youre retired and have more free time to watch these videos. Really doesn't make sense to insult younger people when you were probably just as busy when you were younger.
Kindness doesn't cost you a thing.
Lol this boomer thinks he knows it all.
I have had 9 840s and every bit of information helps. I have used your website as my BIBLE for many years! Your videos are soooooo helpful and very informative. I TRULY appreciate your time and details in each or your videos.
Wow, thank you!
I have a question, so all of that work to replace the tensioner right? I'm just young n confused I'm sorry if it's a dumb question, also same goes for the e39 m62tub44 right? And the cranking up bit at the end was confusing too. Also how do I know that the chain is already damaged or not? I'm a 18 year old with a e39 540i and trying to learn everything
It looks more complicated than it is. Replacing the tensioner is very important for the longevity of the guides - it is what stop the timing chain thrashing around. AFter replacement there is no oil pressure in the tensioner so stopping the car firing until the oil pressure increases is important
Thank you so much!@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation
Thanks for the great knowledge Timm, hopefully u had enough time for a cup of tea after the job was done.
Cheers Felix
I did!
I’m working on doing the chain guides on my 2000 540i
Do you recommend the original hydraulic timing chain tensioner, or the longer aftermarket one?
Tim Good work.
M60 timing chain guide falure is LESS COMMON due to the idler sprocket distributing a lot of the tension and friction from the chain. the fact the engine temp is not kept as hot as the m62 with the map thermostat, less heat means cooler oil temps to not bake and brittle the plastic guide material along with thicker oil preventing wear.
M62 with map thermostat (Nov vanos) plastic guids break MORE COMMONLY because of the increased operating temp, leading to warmer oil which is thinner causing more wear and baking the timing chain guides to brittleness. Along with the u guide replacing the idle sprocket which sees a majority of friction and tension which is why it is the first item to fail.
M62TU (vanos) failure rate is EXTREMELY MORE COMMON (around 100,000 mi) same issues as the non-vanos m62 however when the Vanos hub seals start to not hold oil They act like a impact gun (momentarily making a knocking sound until they can fill with oil) which transfers this impact motion through the chain to the plastic guides and shatters the u guide certain instances after it havs become brittle and worn out. You can hear the hub knocking momentarily on cold startup with certain starts.
@high_mountain_ machine
Good to hear from you Jesse! I agree with you, but having regular oil changes will add longevity to the M62TUB44 - I've had three with the temperature-mapped thermostat and two of them well over 120,000 miles. I agree regarding the Vanos though, they do sound like little diesel engines at start-up. However, fully synthetic Castrol oils have additives that can help in that respect so that oil will cling to surfaces for extended periods.
The problem is always that E38's just don't get looked after - they are perceived as a cheap car (by most) and the end of its useful life - and they just don't see oil changes, coolant changes and filter changes - and then they die very quickly!
Spot on Timm! This is my experience also working on M62TUB44´s. Often when the guide break, the tensioner has been slacking for some time. I really like your positive attitude and great teaching skills. I hope a lot of people pick up on this tip although it might mean less jobs for me...Hihihi
Thanks, and always my pleasure!
Thanks for the advice and video! I'm not a fan of replacing parts with new if the old part is perfectly fine. I've taken my tensioner out and the valve has good pressure and springs in and out smoothly. Would you recommended simply cleaning the old tensioner along with an oil flush if the oil looks too black and mucky ? I've seen there are also tensioner replacement springs, would it be safe to change only the spring in the valve ?
The spring does very little - the longer spring was to account for guide wear - but all the pressure is hydraulic - and for that to work there has to be a precise fit between the tensioner piston and barrel
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation Makes sense, thanks for advice!
Amazing information! I have been changing the oil on my e39 540i with m62TUb44 every 5000km with liquimolly full synthetic. I started when the car had 150k km and now it has 225k km. Is that overkill?
Thank you!
Nope, I’m going the same on my X5. It’s clearly working for you
No that's perfect.
I have code p1341 is that a sign of my timing being off?
Misfire on 7&8.. rough idle
I've been waiting for a video like this!!! Thank you Timm!
Hope you enjoyed it!
Ya know Timm, I've figured it out. You're like David Attenborough; same diction and cadence, just different animals. Lol
I just call him Dad.....
Watching again, your repeats never get old Timm. While my 365000km 1997 540i is getting a new radiator, thermostat, fan and water pump (the upper hose came away thanks to a small slice of plastic coming away with the clip) Im thinking perhaps it is time to think about the tensioner. One thing please, you say the crankshaft turns clockwise as viewed from the front but then proceed to show the path of the chain as if it were anticlockwise. Could you clear that confusion up? Thanks again, you're a bloody legend.
Thanks Bernard! I'll have to watch the video to check but can confirm that the crankshaft does rotate clockwise when viewed from the front
Good video boss but you are working harder than you need too. Invest in additional tooling will make your life much easier.
Get yourself a quality set of 1/4 drive extensions and sockets. You could have removed that air box easy with a long wobble tip 1/4 drive extension and a 7mm socket.
Thanks Gabriel!
Hi Timm. Thanks for a great video. Can I please ask a question? My 1996 E38 750iL may have a loose timing chain - at least that is what it sounds like to me through the oil filler cap. I think that the M73 V12's had a different type of tensioner to most other BMW engines in that it seems from the exploded diagrams to rely on a spring and a physical adjuster (long grub screw with allen key recess in the end with a lock nut) that sticks out of the end rather than using oil pressure to take up slack. Would you know it my assumptions are correct please? Assuming that I am correct would you please have any advice on whether it is a good idea to loosen the lock nut and wind in the grub screw say 360 degrees at a time to see if it reduces then noise from the chain? Thanks as ever. Mark
It is different to the M62, but it is still hydraulic, the spring does very little, most of the work is by oil pressure. If you are getting chain rattle then replace the tensioner in its entirety
You never actually show pulling the tensioner out and 'preloading' the new one as you said early in the video... Did I miss something?
Correct. That's supposedly what the video was going to show us .... wtf !
@@gdhart1954 Depressurize the fuel system before starting. That way you can cold crank with the fuel pump fuse out until the oil circulates and pressurizes the new tensioner before you then put the fuse back in and let it fire up.
Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge, Timm! I just purchased a 1999 e38 with 79k miles which runs just fine (apart from the trifecta issue which I am working on). But as preventive measure I will replace the tensioner immediately and do an oil change and hopefully this will help me prolong the life of the guides and engine.
Nice work!
Hi Tim. Your advice worked, I managed to do a chain tensioner replacement, just following your tutorial 😀👍. You are right, I will leave the guides alone for now. The car starts and is now no longer rattling like a snake, quietly idling. By the way, did this with no mechanical experience, just your tutorial helped . Thanks for selflessly sharing your knowledge with the world 🌎.
Your recommendation for the type of oil in an E34 bmw 540i Tim?
Thanks Sonny, I use 2 x Castrol GTX 10W-40 A3/B4 Engine Oil, 4L
Good video mate 👍 wanted an E39 for years with the 4.4 but always been put off by all the horror stories. Not that I need a 4th BMW at 28 years old but oh well 😂
Start young, that's the way!
So you recommend replacing the tensioner part preemptively? And you gave a 10,000 mile/1 year interval for the oil change? Seems a bit long
Well, you don't want to change the tensioner after the chain guides have failed! So yes, it is important that the tensioner is replaced before you get any strange noises. The 1 year interval is the bullet point, not the mileage.
Timm's BMW Repairs and Information yeah I suppose that was a dumb question. Getting an E39 540i soon and your videos have been very helpful and interesting as a prospective owner. Subscribed
my 2001 540i six speed had 235K miles when I had the guides and suspension rebuilt. The guides were still intact but he tensioner was all in and was due.,,, cost a fortune, but I have a great running and driving car that I have been daily driving about 100 miles a day for 18 years....one hell of a car...it deserves the money Im wasting on it ;)
You can't beat the E39 540i for fun!
MODERN CARS ARE CRAP- BUILT CHEAP.....FULL OF PLASTICS
Thanks for the very useful information Timm. I live in California and was wondering what oil and weight youd recommend on an m62 non tu to maintain the plastic on the guides?
Here you go: th-cam.com/video/8qBfJSINMJM/w-d-xo.html
did i miss something , it seems you did everything but actually change out the tensioner.
Dear Tim.
I only recently found your channel but I wanted to say how much I have greatly enjoyed your explanations and videos.
We own a Titanium Silver E39 540 Sport, built in July 2001.
I took the M badge and 540 logo off the car and she remains on the standard 17inch sport alloys, so at her age she is something of a street sleeper :o)
It's very interesting listening to your maintanance advice and watch the common problems videos. Having owned our old girl for 8 years now I've come across the large majority of them.
As you have found, she's run only on Super Unleaded fuel ( usually V-Power ). I've always run my vehicles on the highest octane fuel I could buy, but since the release of E10 this is even more vital. That stuff is an absolute disgrace.
The car came to me with a very good service history, including 2 previous gearbox services. It only does 4k miles a year with us, so my maintenance regime is every 9k miles or 1yr, whichever comes first. The way you can tell she's well serviced is the oil always looks clean and clear. This may have something to do with the numerous oil leaks all over the engine ( front and rear mains being the worst ) so I do have to top her up occasionally but if I use a litre in a year it's alot. You get used to the burnt oil smell ;o)
Not long after I got the car I changed the chain tensioner...the difference between the new and old tensioner was alot. I took a picture of them side by side but can't seem to find it. How often do you reckon you should change it? I was going to give it 10 yrs. It's interesting the way you say to change it. I didn't know that. I just took the old one out and threw the new one in, no pre charging the hydraulics. Oops.
We've just had the gearbox serviced for the 2nd time in my ownership. The oil even after 6 years was still in excellent condition which is pleasing.
We've had our share of coolant problems. Rad, 2 expansion tanks, a hose went pop and a valley pan. I bought a 7 series none electronic thermostat and bypassed the electronics for the ECU. That seems to have made a difference. Also had a new alternator...who would know it would be so expensive..a bloody watercooled alternator...
Another question for you whilst it's in my head. Is the waterpump impeller metal or plastic? I had a new one 4 or 5 years ago and it's coming up to belt change time and wondered if I'd be ok leaving it as it isn't leaking or causing any trouble.
Obviously had a load of bushes and other random stuff changed. Went through a phase of killing brake discs...think I had 3 sets of front discs and pads in 3 years...finally switched to apec and put 2 new calipers on which seemed to solve it. Recently sent the ABS pump and ECU off to be tested but they said it was fine...It's playing nice at the mo but I hope it stays that way.
I've recently been getting a puff of smoke out the exhaust on startup ( worse when the weather was cold ) and a little rough running untill she's warm. So will be ordering a new CCV this week. I recently changed, bank 1 CPS ( had a warning code ) and I changed all 8 coil packs. The packs on the car were the originals from July 2001. After changing them i can say that she has never run smoother in the 8yrs we've owned her. In fact I was shocked at how noticeable it was. Maybe a video in that for you about coils breaking down over time?
The car doesn't always get used for a week but I make a point of taking her for a 40mile run on the motorway, once a week, every week. They need to be used to stay healthy and to keep the battery reasonably charged.
Last year I had 2 new sills fitted and all the jacking points rebuilt due to rust. Then the entire Chassis Dinitroled. So hopefully no chassis rust worries for atleast the next 15 to 20 years. I've just nipped a little rust in the bud on the rear arches and I'm keeping an eye on the bottom of the front wings and the roof near the windscreen.
It's interesting what you say about regular servicing and tensioner replacement regarding timing guides. I have put money away for an engine rebuild when they are ready to do and was told usually around the 150k mark. But our chain is still quiet at just under 150k so fingers crossed it will be ok for a while yet.
Our car has had a rattle on start up since we bought it. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it isn't, sometime worse, sometimes not. When you first hear it it sounds really scary. I've had several people waving at me in horror. LOL. Although it's been doing it less since new CPS and Coils have been on.... I originally thought it was chains before I knew any better but have since learned it's either, just noise from the vanos, or some slightly sticky hydraulic lifters, and as long as it's only a few seconds is nothing too frightening.
I was surprised about what you said about 0-60 times, but your video about the diffs was enlightening. Our car has always seemed fast ( obviously newer stuff is a fair bit quicker but still ) and pulls like an absolute train once she gets a head of steam.
I plan 1 day to get a performance exhaust but keeping the single exit as is on my car. Streets sleeper remember ;o)
All the stereo remains standard ( alot of people mess with this ) it's just had the radio modified, an aux socket plugged in, a newer dvd player fitted with software ( Mkiv High ) and the cd changer plays mp3's. We added a bluetooth phone kit but it is entirely standard otherwise. I even still have the old traffic master module and mobile phone kit.
The only other thing I think is worth mentioning..... I've done the rocker cover gasket twice now...once I did it myself but it started leaking again..so 18mths later I had a BMW technician do it to make sure I hadn't screwed it up. Guess what. Still leaks. As part of my servicing I occasionally take the coils out and if any oil has pooled blast it out with the air compressor and a rag., I've since found out a faulty CCV can cause problems and am now going to try your washer fix on both the rockers and the intake so thank you very much for that.
Anyway I look forward to watching more of your videos :o)
They are excellent.
All the best. Buzz
Thanks - a lot to read there!
Timm, thanks for all your awesome information! I’ve got a leaking engine oil thermostat on my 2007 650i and wondering how difficult a DIY repair it might be. Any insight you can provide would be great. Love my 650 and so appreciative of your expertise.
Thanks James, it's a bit awkward to get to - but is a simple enough repair - and they often leak!
If you follow the BMW recommend services intervals and the engine still breaks, it's JUNK!Period.
Thanks for your input, it is always good to 'see over the fence' sometimes for a balanced view!
Tim; I have replaced the tensioner with a new one primed and preset not to long ago yet i still get some chain slap on start up every now n then, im really good about my maintainance as well. the guides were replaced by the previous owner @ 140,ooo miles car is now @ 207,ooo mi.
What engine? If it is a M62TU then it is quite likely that the Vanos is rattling at start-up
My m62 in my E38 has a loud rattle sound on cold start, only for a second then it sounds quiet as can be. Vanos rattle? Tensioner ?
It could be either - change the tensioner using this routine and hope the rattle goes away!
How often do have to change the timing chain tensioner Sir? By the way excellent analysis on the mater.
Around 100,000 miles per tensioner as long as you keep up with oil changes.
Thank you for your great information. What do you think if one uses engine flush every once in a while, to make sure that the orifices on the tensioner and the valve tappets are clear and doing their hydraulic pressure correctly?
If you change the oil once a year using a top-brand fully synthetic there is no need to flush. And thanks!
i bought a 735i with failed timing chain guides. I thought Id just drop in a good used engine, but under further inspection there wasnt any apparent damage from the alluminium shavings going around. SO i took it apart, rebuilt the lifters, resealed the entire unit, replaced all timing components and voila, engine runs well. Flushed the oil 3 times. No issues so far.
The oil filter was stuffed with aluminium shavings when I got it, but now you wouldn't even tell anything was up with it.
i disassembled and inspected the oil pump, light scoring was present but not alarming as far as i could tell. Maybe I'll replace the oil pump later. This is to say as long as the engine didnt skip timing, if you catch on to whats gone on theres a chance you can still save it.
Good work!
Great video again sir! Now what would you say how often should you change the tensioner ??? If you already have answered that I apologize. Months, years, miles? Thanks again!
With regular oil changes with a fully synthetic oil it lasts a good 100,000 miles!
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation Wow really, thanks Timm and that is with what brand of tensioner? any suggestions? And what would you consider regular oil changes?
@@user-ub5rg6fn6e Tensioner and other parts here: www.amazon.co.uk/finds/post/photo/2467023e-3e36-42da-ab99-0c748be924ac?programId=8af65eae-b2c6-4642-a988-dc519b0bef1e&ref=exp_si_spark_timmsbmwrepairsandinformation&cancelCallback=%2Fshop%2Ftimmsbmwrepairsandinformation&domainId=influencer
10,000 miles or 1 year whichever is the sooner
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation Thank-you sir!!!!!!
@@user-ub5rg6fn6e Hi there,I have an E39 535i in Australia here.I always use Mobil 1 0w-40 all year round.Same in my old E32 750iL.I had a 1990 525i and a 318i E30 that I use to use daily normal traffic use.Also we would use say 20w50 or 15w40 depending on outside temperature.Winter we would use 15w40 no problems and summer it's 20w50.(Australia can get 40-50 degrees Celsius.)Or we will use 0w40 for outside temperatures upto ~38 degrees Celsius.Thrashing it say around a track or full revs drifting on gravel burnouts etc.We swear by Mobils Mobil 1 0w40 here in Australia for anything really.BMW Holden Ford etc all vehicles.One oil that engines thrive on at full noise.Any other oil we can buy off the shelf in Australia is absolutely crap compared to this.Probably why it's around 100$+ per 5Lts.It is proven and I've used it for years.Cheap engine oil is just that crap.Try cheap oil in Harley Davidson motorcycles or cheap oil in a fleet of vehicles trucks etc
Our company's would have sunk in the 1990s if it wasn't for top quality oils like Mobil 1 Castrol etc."Play silly games win silly prizes."Ultimately cheap oils kill engines.I hope more than yourself will read this BMW chain tensioners are well known to fail please use good oil and change at the correct intervals you will win the prize of a reliable vehicle.☑️👌
If you really love your car, every 15K miles the tensioner should be checked and manually cycled. You'll be amazed at the sludge buildup due to its poor design. Takes 10 minutes and a 19mm socket. If you don't want to do that, change the tensioner at 60K intervals.
Have you ever experienced cold start rattle for a sec or two when you start on m62tu engine on e39 540I 2003. How do you fix that??
Unfortunately that is usually the Vanos Seals (if you have replaced your timing-chain tensioner). The engine sounds like a diesel for a couple of seconds until the oil pressure is re-established. My 740i used to do this - and I ignored it as it is not a terminal problem.
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation thank you will wait till my timing is due. I have 160k miles but i have no plastic chips in my oil pan
Top quality oils with regular oil changes will bring you years of entertainment.☑️👌🌏
Hey Timm. Thank you for this video. Your explanations are beautiful. I noticed a commenter down below mentioned that he has an '03 540i with 160k miles. I have the same car with around 169k miles. It just started doing this start up rattle. It's entirely possible that this could be the VANOS simply because the last check up I did with a mechanic mentioned that it's time to do the VANOS, but i'm not sure if the VANOS makes this noise....
Can I get a secondary opinion? Thank you so much.
th-cam.com/video/pC8OZ8DP45g/w-d-xo.html
(The car wasn't making any start up rattle while 5W30 high mileage full synthetic was being used. After I changed it to 10W40 high mileage full synthetic, it did start making these noises. Looking back, the thicker oil at start up might not have been the best idea because the oil might take longer to enter the cylinder? Could this play into why these noises started?)
The best way forward would be to replace the tensioner as detailed in this video and then take it from there - it could well be the Vanos helix gears, but they don't usually give any problem apart from the noise whereas the timing chain tensioner needs to be working faultlessly!
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation I've been looking forward to your reply since I posted :) Sounds good, I'll do just that. I last turned my car off 6 months ago (I was planning the guide job, and didn't want to run risk of damage meanwhile). I am worried about the start up rattle because when I turned it off, I did so normally by turning the key. I did not burn off fuel in fuel lines by pulling the K96 relay.
I want to follow your start up procedure here to build oil pressure, but I am afraid my car will start up because I had turned off the car normally, 6 months ago.
In my situation, will I risk the engine starting up even with the relay disconnected? Thank you
Well presented Timm. I'd also suggest checking the outer surface of your dirty oil filter for any small particles possibly plastic guide material and pray you don't find any! I run a cooler 88° C thermostat in place of the 105° in my 2002 X5 4.4. These engines i feel run too hot especially here in Australia on a 45° C day😎. Running 10-15 degrees cooler has to benefit guide life. I also only use high zinc Penrite 10W/ 40 group 4/5 engine oil. Once again well done👍
Mine still makes noise on startup but goes away and I replaced to tensioner
Yes, I agree, the temperature mapped thermostat is a recipe for disaster!
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation Hi Timm. Do I take it then that you would recommend substituting the 105 degC stat (in an M62TU) for a lower temp non-mapped stat like the 88 deg.C?
My compliments on your excellent vid's and info.
OK, what the heck is up with TH-cam? I've not seen you for a while and every once in a while wondered where you went to. I clicked on this video that popped up which I've seen and discovered I was no longer subscribed. I've had it happen before and heard others mention they got unsubscribed.
Are they trying to skew the algorithm?
2 years later I wonder how Timm’s timing chain guides are, and what is the current mileage as at the time of this video he referenced 170,000 miles.
Everything is going nicely - I'm at work having driven here in the 840ci, and a lovely drive it was! I haven't been far, now at 178,000
no 9@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation
brilliant reverse analysis for this staple weakness.
Now I understand why its always the passenger side (US) distribution that acts up 👏
low oil pressure contributes greatly to the early failure ✌🏻
Thanks!
Thank you so much, great explanation!
Thank you from New Zealand.
Thanks from sunny UK!
So I installed a new guide tensioner. I started the car and it sounded horrible so I shut it down right away. Am I to believe I am to endure the chain noise until the tension fills with oil and releases to put pressure on the guides? I’m just a bit nervous to hear that chin slapping on 24yr old plastic. Thanks for the insight. Wonder information
As long as you follow this guide and allow the oil pressure to build without the engine running you will be fine.
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation as a follow up, I filled the guide tensioner with oil and then did the impossible, got everyone seated and threaded. I should have followed your brilliant example. Lesson learned, Timm.
Would have been great if the video was not cut so we could have at least seen the tensioner 😢
I didn't need to change the tensioner and didn't have a new crush washer if I had taken it out for the video!
My E38 just started throwing the code "P0011 Cam position actuator A bank 1 timing over advance" and its running really loud. A loud flapping sound to be exact. A buddy of mine whom is a mechanic thinks the whole timing chain is about to go kaput. Is it possible that if i change the tensioner then i can save my car? I really like my E38 and i don't want to pay an arm & a leg to replace the whole timing chain. Nor do i want to let my car go.
Yes, we'll worth changing the tensioner - it's worth a go!
Wow, at last a full explanation of the dynamics of the timing chain motion, the guide failures, and the role of the 3 chain tensioners -- including the relative unimportance of the two deep internal ones that Timm says rarely fail and are generally not in need of attention but others are happy to charge thousands to get into along with a full "preventative" guide replacement--which I've heard BMW officially states is a 20-to-24 hour book time project. Told clearly in the calm informed voice of a Cambridge or Oxford Physics professor, I loved the demonstration of the direction of rotation and the interplay between the two banks retard vs advance. I'm happy Timm disabused all the naysayers who warn not to change this tensioner, out of superstitious fear of "triggering something catastrophic" , and instead is helping the environment and people's pocketbooks by keeping these beautiful BMW V8's rolling and giving so much driving pleasure to their owners - in a less than one hour procedure and a part under $100. It also helps restore some confidence in BMW engineering in that they did have a simple plan for avoiding engine failure and didn't really consider the guides to be a consumable part like an oil filter. I'm now feeling good about changing the tensioner in my 2002 540i wagon and hoping it resolves some pinging only coming from the right-side (US passenger side) bank and generating some knock sensor D2 and DME multiplicative mixture 1A codes despite a brand new throttle body and knock sensors--and if I understood Timm correctly problems start on that side first. One thing I wish he included was at around 26 minutes to show the actual old tensioner coming out, and would have loved to see a demo of Timm comparing the tension of old vs new. Others have done that online, showing with scales and even comparing a newer and older revision of new tensioners that apparently have a big discrepancy in both tension like 7 to 14 pounds, and even a few centimeters difference in the throw! I was wondering if those "dry" tests aren't accurate because of the lack of hydraulic pressure outside the engine. Timm, can you comment on exact part numbers and this issue of a few different versions of the tensioner out there? Is the newest much improved? Do you prefer the older? Would you go only genuine BMW for this part, or are Febi or ANA and others okay? Or are they all just fine and the main thing is to follow your advice and change them more frequently? I certainly would be happy to ship my old one to you in the UK in the interest of BMW science! Thanks for all you do, Timm.
Thanks! The spring only extends the piston as the guide rail moves - think of it as a ratchet system - as the piston extends (by the feeble spring pressure) oil enters behind it and so it will not retract again. All the force is produced by the oil pressure - the spring really has very little effect. The newer version allows the piston to extend further - and you need that to take up the wear!
The ratchet idea makes so much sense! Regarding the identity of the correct tensioner part number, can you help us ensure that when we are buying these we are buying the newer version? Do you have the part numbers of the newer and older versions? It seems like 11317531813 is the most commonly sold one, but perhaps that is the older shorter version and it would be so helpful to know that we're putting in the slightly longer one to take up that extra slack from the wear.
Fantstic video Timm, I met you once bought a green E38 up to you MAF, I am doing guides on an M62 TU at the moment on my X5 193,000 miles loads of fun ! but she has FSH and has always run smooth as silk and would assume oil changes have let her live like this so long, mine started by a whirling sound coming from the top right bank rocker, when you presssed down on it it went away, removed the right hand rocker and found the shreaded plastic of the guide............not the best day of my life !
Yes, I remember, had a failing torque-converter lock-up clutch!
Great video too bad you skipped actually taking it out. Mine has 165000 on second engine m62. I change oil often with 100 percent synthetic. 94 540i. what about priming tentioner you mentioned. but I did not see you do it?
Thanks Richard - I didn't show taking it out because I didn't - only going through the procedure here. Priming was shown though!
I did the whole timing chain guide replacement job on my 540i after I replaced the tensioner at ~170,000 km. I think actual act of replacing the tensioner killed the old guides, since the tensioner wasn't pressurized enough before the engine spun up. After replacing the guides and chain (and a bunch of pulleys, gaskets, and everything else in the way - 2 day job) I was sure to pressurize the tensioner per your excellent advice Timm (great video, BTW).
However, since doing the job, even with a brand new tensioner, it will still rattle the chain a bit on startup - the longer the car has sat the longer it takes for the tensioner to pressurize. Any longer than a day sitting, and I get an audible rattle for up to a second. Once I left the car for a month, and on startup forgot to pull the fuel pump fuse to allow it to circulate oil while cranking without fuel - it rattled hard for a good 2-3 seconds (I nearly filled my pants, obviously). The oil change after found a small piece of plastic (maybe 2 mm size) but I'm not positive it wasn't just a bit of leftover from the previous guides getting caught in the filter.
I'm trying to figure out the best way to get that tensioner pressurized enough before the engine spins up. Does anyone know if it's possible to code in a fuel delay on cold cranking? Or maybe wire a fuel cutoff switch to the dash. The only other thing is maybe there is something wrong with the tensioner or how I installed it - do they normally drain out like that? I didn't own the car for long enough to get to know the tensioner normal behaviour before doing the guide replacement (first M62 for me). Any ideas or hints would be much appreciated.
The first thing to check is if the oil reservoir is holding the oil over long periods - the relief valve at the bottom is known to leak and it takes a few seconds to re-fill it. Leave the car a day or so and then remove the reservoir lid - it should be full of oil if you are quick enough before it starts draining away.
Hi Tim, and thanks again for this awesome video, I really appreciate the way you explain these things.
I've been watching it from time to time, since I've changed the chain guides in my m62tu about 6 months ago.
My engine only had 82k miles, and I actually couldn’t believe, that the guides went this early. I changed the chain tensioner on the day I bought the car at 70k miles. The old tensioner was the original from 2000 and totally seized up, couldn’t compress at all.
The only conclusion to the guides failing this early, that I could come up with, is the fact that the previous owner didn’t change the oil regularly, and the fact, that I didn’t build up the oil pressure before starting the engine, after replacing the tensioner. This is probably the major cause of the chain guides wearing this early.
I’m just glad, they’re functioning now. I change the oil once a year, which is every 6k miles.
A few things though that keep coming back to my mind about chain guides, I wanted to ask you, which I hope you can help me figure out.
I’m using mobil 1/liqui moly or castrol 5w-40 oil all year around, and here in Denmark, it can get quite cold at winter.
How long time does it take for the oil to reach the chain tensioner, and applying maximum pressure on the tensioner guide, on cold starts at freezing temperatures?
My concern is, that the engine in this case manages to startup, before the actual tension on the guides has been reached, causing the guides to wear out quicker during winter, correct me, if I'm wrong.
Is this even a concern, or does the actual oil, which is already inside the tensioner prior to starting
the engine, help with this?
Another thing, there’re many speculations on failing guides online caused by brittle plastic on the V-rail.
Let’s say the plastic has gotten brittle during the last 20 years, and most likely detached itself from the V-rail.
The chain is kept tensioned at all times, since oil is changed regularly and the chain tensioner is replaced within the acceptable interval.
Would it even be an issue to continue driving like this, if the chain is fully tensioned at all times?
The tensioner will retain the oil and will pressurise quickly, and yes, a lack of oil changes will kill the chain guides and the tensioner!
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation Thanks. Will the tensioner pressurize as fast both Summer and Winter with very different outside temperatures?
The difference in viscosity at cold temperature between a 5w30 or 5w40-50 is insignificant. If it was 5w30 and 10-15w30, then yes that would be felt by the engine during cold start as the viscosity at cold temperature would be greater while having similar hot viscosity.
Replaced my tensioner at 210k KMs, at the 250k KM the chain was replaced. Chain guides were still in a ok condition, could have maybe lasted another 50k KMs. So I think was good to have tensioner replaced. Also quite a difference in strength between new one and the old tensioner. My car 2001 X5 4.4i, currently at 273k KMs.
It's always a good move to replace that tensioner!
Seems like a market to offer a LS swap kit for these cars
A few have tried Neil, without much luck - the S62 is the usual swap.
Hi Timm,I have 2 E38's 44,k & 58k at what mileage should I be changing the timing chain tensioners.A 98 740il & 2001 740i
Thanks
Hello John, all E38's should have had the timing chain tensioners replaced by now - they are getting on a bit!
just did the tensioner on my 540 thanks to this video. although, it was much easier to get to than on your e31! im surprised you had to remove so much.
Nice work! Yes, the E38 was a lot easier - and the E32 was even easier than that!
Does it help to replace the timing change tensioner before the rails bust off a e38 N62 engine? It there a way to know when to replace that part?
Probably best to watch the video all the way through - all the answers are there!
What oil viscosity is recommended for this engine? Cheers
All explained here: th-cam.com/video/8qBfJSINMJM/w-d-xo.html
@Timm's BMW Repairs and Information thanks although I found somewhere on the Internet that 0w30 European and 0w40 US websites and market so I'm a bit confused
Thanks for the info sir! New to your videos
Welcome! And thank you!
These things are so interesting, i am looking to buy a car with a M62 engine, so this is very helpful to me. I have replaced the lifters, and serviced the vanos on my M54 engine once and alot of that experience comes back in to play here! Now i do have a question, if i for an instance buy one of these cars, should i replace the tensioner as preventive maintenance, or is it not common when the car is serviced properly?
Question Team e39, I replaced the tensioner on my 2003 and it seems like the rattle comes and goes now. Is there a right way to install theses? such as lining the side holes with the the oil galley? Some time its sound fine after sitting overnight but after work-8 hours I hear the rattle upon start up, leak down. I just started after 6 hours and it sound great. How do I know if its working or did I get a bad INA part from FCP Euro? I did this job last Sunday. I did take the fuses out for the fuel pumps and turned it over.
I will be changing the valve cover and oil pan gasket that will allow me to see all the guides. From the oil filler hole I can see the guides with the material in place. Thoughts???
It would be unlikely to get a dodgy one - but the problem could be that the pressure-relief valve could be leaking when hot. I would use an oil designed to remove sludge for a few changes. However, it is worth saying that my M62TUB in my 740i used to rattle at start-up, but it was the vanos units rather than the chain.
Hi Timm. What do you say to people who say all the guides should be replaced by 100k miles? I changed the tensioner 8 years ago, and still no problems. I have 110k miles on mine
Well, I'm at 173,000 miles on the same chain guides!
Tim great video, has me worried about my E38 , just ordered new tensioner , did you install yours fully extended and soak in oil before installing or just install the way it came in the box fully compressed ,
Hello John, I installed it in its compressed state - I discuss it here: www.meeknet.co.uk/e31/E31_Timing_Chain_Tensioner.htm
Thanks Tim, fantastic video, got a question though, recently purchased a E39 , m62tu, 535i , 142 kilometres, hear a half second Rattle noise on most cold starts, had to have my rocker cover and timing chain gaskets and new tensioner replacement done due to oil leaks, I asked my very experienced BMW mechanic to check the timing chain guides, he said nice golden colour, no sludge etc, He said that he believes the motor has been well maintained and not to worry, He said no sign of wear in the guides, I asked what about the bottom, he said if they fail they start at the top. Seems to be mixed reports about this common problem on the internet forums, some say vanos wear, others say guides beginning to fail and others say perfectly normal due to older engine . What is your opinion? PS , Some say it's check valves failing., Changing tensioner made no difference to this random cold Start split second chatter Tnx in advance
Hello Daniel, if you have replaced the tensioner then you have done what you can do without a lot more trouble. The Vanos units can rattle, mine did in my E38 - and they never caused any other problems - unless you get timing problems (engine light on) then I would not worry.
It is absolutely right to say changing oil early keeps the plastic on timing chains from breaking.I just repaired my 3 rd hand M62 4,4 a few days ago.It is a non Vanos engine.So i looked at the front parts of the engine.There i found little rests of dirt.This dirt was caused by one of the preowners .I think he hasnt changed oil early enough.As i Bought the car i changed oil a fully sythetic one i used.It washed the dirt away.The plastic on the old timing chains was very hard and some parts broke off.The engine has run about 295000km now and rest ist in good condition.No oil consumption at all.It is running fine now and i will change oil every 8000 km to save the timing chains.
Thanks for the info!
Best explanation iv seen on the tensioner
Thanks David!
How you will be talking about engines after only a few months of M62 ownership
Because I've had them for over 20 years!
So is the tensioner the reason my timing rattles at startup? Because I was about to just redo the timing chain guides and timing chain itself. Would be awesome if it was just the tensioner.
It is certainly worth changing it - rattling at startup is a sure sign that something is slapping around!
i don't understand why the tensioner ever needs to compress. what would cause the spring in the tensioner to compress?
It only needs to compensate for the change in chain length as the chain heats up - but it should never 'compress' as such as it is a hydraulic component just like the lifters
Just ordered a tensioner for my 2000 540i. Not even thinking about driving it until it's replaced. Been running very good with steady maintenance but not taking a chance after watching this video.
Good man, keep up the great work!
I really like your voice of explanation, Thank for that reason.
Thanks!
and i thought the m62 in a l322 range rover, was bad for access !!! ( iam now glad im not doing this job on aE31 ;D ....... just subd great knowledge :)
Have fun!
Going to look at a 740 1995 tomorrow. Wish me luck. Does it have The infamous watercooled alternator?
Thank you for This Great video.
Thanks A J, no, the pre-facelift has the air-cooled version
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation Thank you. Now The last thing Im worried about is camchain guides. Car has 180000 miles on it. Cross my fingers..
Hello there! I have owned 3 different M62 Vanos engines (I still have a 1999 740iSport my second! - - 91,000 miles (first month manufacture for the Sport model September 1998 and full of 750 interior parts ) and a 2002 X5 4.6i - 108,000 miles. Having had the engine implode on my first 1999 740i Sport , I am naturally sensitive to the ominous sound of timing chain rattles, and I appreciate your article! A couple of comments...Owners of these time bombs should be very careful of overheating, which seems to make the timing chain guides brittle and prone to failure even if there is no other damage to the engine....
My question today regards my X5. I replaced the lower tensioner at around 100K with the INA (new design) tensioner after hearing an occasional brief timing chain rattle (on cold startup only). Now at 108K miles and a year of time, I am getting the same brief rattle occasionally on cold startup. After reading your excellent article, I pulled the tensioner and flushed it out, and started the car using your suggestion of a disconnected fuel pump (brilliant and easy to do-just pull the fuse on the E53). A week later the rattle is back (engine oil is fresh, topped off and 5W-30 full synthetic). I am confident that the tensioner is clean and working as the engine purrs beautifully after start-no rattle ever after start. So it seems that the tensioner is working, but not consistently being properly pressurized on startup- (which by the way is the most violent explosion of an internal combustion engine I have ever heard). Is it possible, in your opinion, that I may have an oil pump that is a bit weak? I am trying to eliminate any possible source of chain rattle before spending up to 4,000 USD on replacing the timing chain guides, timing chain, upper tensioners, valley pan gasket, valve cover gaskets, OSV, intake manifold gaskets. Your thoughts, sir? THANK YOU!!
Good to hear from you Marcus - and thanks for a detailed question! I've had a few M62TUB's and the only noises I have experienced is from the Vanos units themselves rather than from the timing chain (obviously I always swap the tensioner when I first get the car). The Vanos rattle can be very similar to timing chain rattle, possibly more like a very quiet diesel rattle - so easy to confuse. If you have done the tensioner then I would expect the problem to be the Vanos units.
One difference is that the Vanos rattle is not terminal, it is the wear in the helix gears that makes the noise and there is a lot of meat there and I have never heard of one slipping - probably impossible!
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation Thank You Timm! The rattle is very brief, less than 2 seconds, but quite loud- like a quartet of metal hammers ... Would the Vanos rattle also be related to the pressurization of the tensioner? What makes me think it is the tensioner is that if I run the starter without the fuel pump for 3-4 seconds and then start the car, no rattle... Thanks very much for your quick response and interest...I certainly do not want to be in a hurry to have the engine torn down ...
Do you install the tensioner compressed or extended out? I have read it comes compressed when new. Some people say it too hard to screw in when not compressed. I have also read the chain can skip at start up when installing compressed. I cannot find anything in my Bentley book. Getting ready to do this on my 1998 540i. Great videos. Diagrams, video, and dictation make is so much easier to understand. Amazing. Greatly appreciated.
You fit it as it is delivered - in the compressed state. The action of the chain guide thumping the tensioner as the engine is turned over extends the piston ready for action.
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation , thanks for the info. Do I need to disconnect the fuel pump relay? Some people have started that but most just pull out tensioner and reinstall new one. My card is a 1998 540i. 188,000 miles
Interesting theory I’ve heard them going out on well maintained ones, chains do stretch after awhile. It is a lot of work to do the chain and guides. If you get away with just regular oil changes great.
Would adding aome atf to the oil help clean up a varnished engine?
It might, but there are specialist Engine Flush oils that work better!
Is it a big deal if my engine is already looking varnished on the inside? I got a secondhand 740i with the m62 and i very much would like to look after it properly, will new oil soften up the old residue and open up the oil ports as well? I worry that its too late (196k km) and that i might have to do the guides anyway, which is no small amount of work..
Use a good-quality fully synthetic oil from now on - it will help to remove all the varnish and clear oilways!
Awesome, I am going to change the oil + tensioner + filter asap!
Thank you for these videos, i love listening to people who know what theyre talking about ;)
As a new owner of a pre owned X5 E53 with 230k miles on the n62 thank you for this knowledge sir, you have a new subscriber
Welcome aboard!
Thinking about using liquid moly 5w-30 or 5w-40 do you recommend that oil or a different brand?
Liquid Moly is good stuff - well worth giving it a go!
Hi Tim, is there any way to check the integrity of the guides without much dismantling ?
Only once they have failed and then the bits drop into the oil pan....
Thanks for a thorough explanation on the dynamics of chain rattling and advanced timing error code. What are your thoughts on an engine preoiler ?
My pleasure. No need, as long as you have replaced the tensioner and change oil every year you will be fine.
I change the oil at 7500km interval no guide rail issues and no startup noice so far at 270 000km. But used a synthetic Castrol oil 13 years ago that gave me startup noice from the lifters after longer standstills (don't use Castrol anymore) but Q8 excel 10-40.
Thanks for sharing, I've never had that problem with Castrol oils myself, I wonder why yours got noisy....
@@TimmsBMWRepairsandInformation Yes very strange,It was Castrol Edge 0W-40.
You forgot to mention a key difference between your engine and the ones found on E38/E39. You car's thermostat is designed to run at ~80C. However, in order to meet emissions BMW increased the operating temperature of the engine to 105C on E38/E39 chassis, however, all the parts remained the same. If you want to confirm, just look up the thermostat for your car and a later model e38/e39. The e38/e39 engines have a much higher chain guide failure than the older ones running at 80C, and the higher temperature is making the plastic more brittle. That is also the reason why they tend to go through valve cover gaskets and valley pan gaskets at a higher rate than the old engines. Also, the plastic guide is attached to a metal backing. Many of these engines are routinely started at temperatures less than 0C (obviously depending on the climate where you live) and they heat cycle to 105C, then cool down and repeat this. The metal expands/shrinks at a different rate than the plastic thereby putting stress on the plastic. Combine that with higher operating temperature and the plastic has a propensity for cracking and falling apart.
No need to convince me - I've had three E38's, each one with the Temperature-Mapped Thermostat - which opens (unassisted) at 108C - and can be opened down to 85C. Not only running the engine at high temperatures but also leaking coolant into the DME if you're not lucky. But, don't forget that the coolant temperature affects head temperature, oil temperature affects crankcase temperature.
Although the Temperature-Mapped Thermostat doesn't help the situation, I still believe that the extended servicing period is what caused the majority of problems with the M62TUB and not the TMT. My cars were testament to that.
You nailed it-Spot on -I am dealing with 185 000 E39 and all gaskets and solenoids leaked! But chain and guides were OK
Good info for owners of n42, n43, n47, n20 etc etc...
Those 30k km oil intervals are waaay too long!
Couldn't agree more!
Do you change the upper tensioners aswell?
No, too much trouble until the guides need doing!
I have a 2007 650i
Presently, ive bought a engine for replacement. Ive looked, searched and researched many many sources for this repair.
However, YOU have been literally the best, most informed, fastly paced, visuals and easy RIGHT explinations of bmw engine theory, repair and maintenance.
Im grateful for you, thank you.
You instructions are a fun refreshing event
Tony young
Thanks, that's very kind of you!
Thanks Tim finally done my tensioner yesterday morning on my e38 3.5i alot easier than your car I would say I did soak in oil and fitted fully extended was quiet easy to do the old one was shot love all your videos and advice cheers John Dublin
Well done John!
Do you recommend tensioner replacement on the 6 cylinder engines too?
Yes, certainly, it's a wear element just like all the other components!
Excellent video Tim !.
I followed your instructions replacing the tensioner last year on my 735i with only 70k miles. However, the instructions on your site don't include any information about building up pressure in the tensioner before starting the engine, so I had a nasty noise from the engine the first 3 seconds after the replacement, yikes. After over a year, engine is still running strong, without any issues.
On every DIY I've found regarding the tensioner replacement, the noise on first startup is mentioned as a normal thing.
But what is the exact source of the noise, when engine is first started, and does it hurt anything at all ?
Thanks! Yes, as these cars get older and the timing chain guides more brittle it is important to not give them a slapping with the timing chain. The noise you hear is the timing chains rattling around due to a lack of oil pressure in the tensioner - once pressure has built up it goes quiet and the tensioner will maintain the pressure when the engine has stopped again. This didn't seem to be much of a problem when the cars were relatively new (when the meeknet routine was written), but as they get older the guides get weaker.