This Poker Hand is GROSS, Shocking, & Bizarre!
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ค. 2024
- In this video, Bart discusses how this play was so strange for the villian to make that it's hard to know what he was thinking. Sometimes you will run into these situations where the villian may not even know if they are value betting or bluffing. This is one reason why even if you think you have a live read it can lead you to the wrong decision.
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0:00 - Intro
2:20 - Preflop
3:25 - Flop
5:37 - Turn
6:40 - CLP "Same Bet" content reference
8:33 - River
15:50 - Hero Decision
15:55 - Reveal
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This one was a heads scratcher. Do you think this guy was actually check raising for value here?
Maybe a little bit of both. Value and incase he was beat, he was bluffing. I play at bestbet and I've seen some crazy stuff like this.
I’m pretty sure I know who this villain is. 😅
It's a value-bluff! V's hoping to fold out bigger pocket pairs, but get called by worse pairs and flushes! 🤪🤪🤪 Seriousy, no point in trying to figure out what an opponent is doing when they themselves don't know. This is just a clueless spaz.
Yeah, the speech is a tell.
I have to say that I find some of your responses "inconsistent." You basically said the villain was crazy -- and also implied you would have seriously considered folding if you were the hero. Doesn't that make his play GOOD -- if it would get a better hand to fold?
“Fuck it I’m all in” I’m folding so fast
actually haven't watched the reveal ... and loose passive players that get aggressive are a big red flag. any jam on this river is better than pocket tens. The min raise on the flop is also a red flag, so I'm checking back the turn because a loose passive player could also have something like pocket Aces or Kings. But the jam on the river leaves me to think the villain has quads. Now I'll watch the reveal 😊
OK ... i ruled out that villain over-valued a worse hand. (Just because villain is a bad rec doesn't mean they are going to make stupid mistakes.) So I still think I'm folding ... and just typing my hat to getting accidentally bluffed 😂
Only caveat is if I have a strong sense the villain could be spazzing out.
Last but not least, I am not betting for thin value on the river ... because speaking of Phil Galfond, he said in "shorts" video that checking one street post flop is important because we likely lose to the range of an opponent calling or giving action on 3 streets compared to an opponent's 2 street calling range.
@@alexbehrend1886 usually the “fuck it I’m all in”, acting weak, is a tell that they fish are nutted
Dude had a full house and thought it was the nuts.
@@alexbehrend1886villain led the turn.
Even with all the hints from the title, the thumbnail, the conversation, etc. I wasn't even remotely thinking about a middle pair. Very very odd.
The problem is what Bart said at the end. While playing become aware of who’s actually a “thinking” player there are a lot of players who don’t think anywhere near a studying player does so you can’t play against this player like you would against a true thinking player you’ll just level yourself.
On a QQ3 rainbow flop..... @5:55 "If he was raising me with a queen he would've gone larger". I love live poker😆
I min raise all the time on the flop with a monster or nuts. It sets the Hook quite nicely, especially multi-way.
The issue he's having with the raise is the fact that it's a min click. Thinking players spaz out when they're faced with a min click as only Recs do this. Lol.
Loving this format, the post game commentary with the hero. Really insightful and interesting.
I was in a similar hand with Aces when the board turned out 7 8 8 8 J. Of course he had the 8.
Live poker is alive and well
I don't play live, but I play with a lot of bad players online (I'm one of 'em), and I think it's important when trying to understand their motivations to consider that they often do not have any awareness of even the most basic concepts like betting for value vs. betting as a bluff. In fact, they often seem to have the mentality that if they have the best hand, what they WANT is to convince their opponent of this and get them to fold. (E.g. The guy who open shoves AA or KK, then smashes that "show hand" button after everyone folds.) I think that's what this guy was thinking here.
Online play? 😭
What do you think of online poker?
If, as Bart suggests, we are good literally 99% (P(W)=0.99) of the time on the River before the x/R, we HAVE to call. You can verify by applying Bayes Rule. Let's say the opponent always plays like this if we are beat P(P|L)=1, also they play like this only 5% of the time when we are good P(P|W)=0.05. Then by Bayes Rule:
P(W|P)=P(P|W)*P(W)/P(P)=0.05*0.99/(0.05*0.99+1*0.01)=0.83
So we are good 83% of the time! It's also still a call for a bit less than 99%.
Hands like this is why it can be so difficult playing with newbies.
Especially when they overvalue their hand, and play it like the nuts. I've seen players say good fold with just top top, when a flush or straight is out there, like they had a monster. They just don't realize it's not a strong hand anymore.
Because they play all their hands like a bluff. To a fish winning a hand means making their opponent fold. They don’t want you to call, they just want to see your cards go into the muck. Even if they think they have the best hand.
@@ticenits1926 if you look at their play in a logical manner, then yah, but they don't think that way. A lot play like if they had the best hand pre, they deserve to win no matter what. Had a guy get mad at me because according to him, he made it obvious he had Aces pre. So when I called with a smaller pair, and hit a set, I was the donkey. Not him, who let me raise him on all 3 streets, since he deserved to win being dealt Aces.
@@ticenits1926 holy smokes man. This was really insightful to me for some reason. I wish you told me this 24 hours ago lol. It makes sense.
Yesterday I was at a table, had just sat down for like 20 minutes. I raised AQs. It was my second raise. I had raised earlier with AKo.
Sb calls. Old Asian guy. And young Asian guy limp called UTG and he had already been doing some wildly fish stuff in the 20 minutes I was there.
Flop is K83 two tone. Old Asian guy in the small blind donks big into both of us. My gut was telling me to raise because the fish called also. I woulda won a nice pot.
Old Asian guy kept betting into young Asian whale and old Asian guy had 99 and won the hand and the whale mucked lol. Turn and river were bricks.
I was like wtf.
But your comment would have given me confidence to put that raise in.
@@denisfolcik1373 Yep. There's a middle aged woman I'm friendly with who overbets preflop with QQ+. A couple of nights ago in a 2/5 game she opens $75 utg with AA. I know an older guy who just ships JJ+ allin preflop from any position. If someone calls and he's beat he just thinks he got unlucky. Everyone folds and she shows. Looking at her she had this disgruntled look on her face, like you could tell a lightbulb flickered for a moment and "dang, I only won 5 bucks with Aces" but she couldnt think of any other way to play it. She doesnt want to lose with AA, so if she makes it $25 and gets 4 callers she'll be uncomfortable for the remainder of the hand.
Well, the Thumbnail really lived up to it's Billing. I'm rather shocked and would consider this hand Bizarre.
Love me a thin value check raise with 77! Cooler, what are you gonna do!
This hand reminds me of the Postle hand breakdowns. Not because anyone is cheating, but because pocket sevens reminds me of the 'too in between' section of Bart's Postle hand breakdowns. His hands were often too in between to justify his actions, as is the case with villain here.
I'm raising turn here. When he X/R flop, his most likely holding is a small to medium pocket pair or a Q (which now is near impossible, also given the small raise and bet) , any river card above a 7 might cost us a lot of value....
Wow. That IS a wild one.
Credit to the villain. Aside from the speech that was a good play. I would have checked the tens on the river or gone slightly more, 2/3 plus. My thinking, villain has pairs, Jacks and lower get played this way by certain players.
I think most hands calling are calling so the best option is to extract value from the 77, 88, 99 type hands that are calling and posibbly fold JJ.
I would expect some polarizing bets with any Q or AA. Any larger betting with worse seems bad, we can run into that Q.
I like the check better than the smaller bet exactly because we put ourselves in this spot.
I cant say what hero was thinking but i was thinking the river bet sizing was almost shouting weak value, we have tens or jacks. Dont shove we cant call. And then the caller says the guy says f it all in. The guy never thought we could have a Queen and he only really beat Ace high, like Ax diamonds that made a river flush.
99% of the time we are beat here, but we are expected to bet when checked in the instances we are beat. We dont have bluffs on this board do we? The river check makes no sense with any hand better except JJ. The reason i like the check back is to avoid being in the spot where im calling into JJ. I expect to be good a lot but i dont expect to get value often. The SPR might be good for a $325-375 bet sizing to lower the fold equity of a shove.
Credit to the hero on getting maximum value out of thin value. And your sizing was that inbetween sizing that would have been fine much deeper or a little shallower. Either leave room for a raise or no room.
Not a bad spot to bluff though, a lot of people seemed to want to fold.
P-Town represent! I STILL can't believe a casino got built in VA. I am however, not surprised that it got built in Portsmouth!
I think this is more a psychology play here because people just see stars when they have a full house or flush and don’t realize that people could be there with a better full house or flush (or quads here). People who play like this just know the value of their own hands and don’t think about what the other person could have in a given situation.
Yo bro you are right. I get caught in this. There were times I could have made some great folds if I wasn't in a daze because of my hand. Do you have anyway to combat this?
@@GabrielCriado-ts3ddYes. By hand reading. Throughout each hand you should be trying to identify or narrow down onto your opponents range, or perhaps even their exact hand. Based on the action at each street combined with the cards that come out on the board, you should be thinking "Could my opponent have XX, or XY?" etc. If you do that you won't get caught up in the strength of your own individual hand.
He thought he played this way to a backdoor flush on a paired, then trips board haha? What? Such a bizarre hand.
I think it was a bluff, not over valuing. Villain knew a c/r here represents quads pretty well, so most nits and most thinking players would fold anything but quads often enough that it's fine to bluff. And the tiebreaker from his tanking may have been that he beats A3s and 33. The only problem is that tanking implies he doesn't have quads, so bluffing would require him to think that his image is that he might pretend to agonize/tank while sitting there with the nuts. Who can't remember having to call the clock on someone who has the nuts? It doesn't happen too often, but it's the kind of thing you never forget.
I think it was a good bluff, because check raising both the flop and river on this board is super strong. I bet if he'd done so in 20-45 seconds without saying anything, hero would have folded. The call was possible because people under tank with the nuts, and talking like that with the nuts can trigger a tire-slashing level of anger, which doesn't rule out the nuts, but reduces the number of players who would talk that way.
Question that I’m hoping Bart or someone very knowledgeable of cash vs tourney rules will answer: years ago when I was coming up as a tourney player I remember hearing a rule that on the river in NLH that the player with the nuts must bet. Is this still a rule and if so is it only in tourneys or is it also a cash game rule? And is it only the last to act player must bet or even if you’re first to act on the river must you bet if you have the nuts? And is it in all forms of poker or only Hold’em? This hand in this call if the villain had the case Queen wouldn’t be be obligated to bet bc it’s the nuts? Or has this rule completely been fazed out? Thanks!
It's called "soft playing" and it's considered cheating if you're last to act. It can incur penalties in a tournament following TDA rules. It never applies if you're not last to act as it's perfectly acceptable to check the nuts as a trap hoping someone bets. As far as cash games I've never seen a rule enforced on players heads up. In fact a lot of players do the "friendly check it down" thing if they know each other. I don't, but alot of OMC's and reg recs do.
@@robw9963 Thank you! This is what I thought but it’s been so long since I’ve seen it enforced or heard people talk about it. Have you ever heard of it enforced in any cash game? And have you heard of any tournaments enforcing this recently?
@@stephenwishburne1034 tournaments will enforce it at the tournament directors discretion. If it's unintentional (rec doesn't understand they have the nuts or how it works) I'd probably give him a warning if I were running it. Never really seen a cash game enforce it because it's usually a tournament rule, but if there's clear collusion in a cash game the dealers and floor staff should deal with it.
TDA dropped that rule last(?)year- the argument was:,By not raising with the nutz, just calling, you get to see his cards.
I've seen too much bad play, I guess. I had the guy on AXd at the end. I will always struggle with this aspect of the game. You find yourself in situations where your opponent has made a polarizing bet, and then you discover it was neither nuts nor bluff, just a wildly over-valued middle strength hand.
I've seen a guy have a k on a TTT k type of board. And the river went like this..the k bet..then he got raised 3x..then the k jammed all in for a significant amount more. Then he got snap called by quads. And he said he couldn't get away from it. I said you could've just called because i thought he might've had quads. He said no theres nothing i could've done. 🤷♂️
Raised the BB with A7s. V limp-calls from the BTN. I c-bet somewhat small on flop of KK7 two-tone, for value and proteection. V raises. I call. Turn is a brick. I check, he barrels pretty big. I tank-fold. V turns over 33, says he just didn't believe I had a K. Part of me thought that's what I get for c-betting that flop with just a pair of 7's, but then I realized he's probably not raising any Kx after limping in pre, and I should have called.
Kind of a similar situation in your TTTK example, because of card removal. Hard for some guys to think V has a T and fold a boat with a K, but we're just never ahead when V is shoveling money into the pot with trips on board.
@1vailchris I think calling the raise is fine for a possible chop...but shoving was a disaster especially since they were fairly deep and the guy that raised was a decent player. They were either chopping or he has quads.
@@craigerc713 Yeah, in that example, I totally agree with you. I guess my point is that all these scenarios - yours, mine, the caller's here - it can be hard to get away from any sort of value hand, unless you think V always has it and is just never bluffing, because bluffing would be insane, and yet at the same time a bluff can be massive EV if it gets a better hand to fold. Your guy jamming Kx over the raise on a trips board is awful, as is the V in this caller's hand jamming 77, thinking hero would call with a flush, but hero almost folded TT here, and my V got me to fold a better pair. I watched a friend flop the nut flush on a monotone board after raising pre. Then the board went runner-runner to put trips on board. When his V donk-jammed river, my friend folded AK face up, expecting V to have a pair for a boat, only for V to turn over 82 for a worse flush. Strange shit happens in low stakes live games, enough that obvious-nuts lines aren't always the nuts.
@@craigerc713 One more, since you mentioned calling for a chop...couple weeks back, I forget all the pre-flop and post-flop action, but the board was 23456 full rainbow on the river, when I have 88. Whatever the action was, I was putting V on a bigger pocket pair or Ace-wheel. 87 would obviously be the nuts, which I double block, so when he checks to me on the river, and I just rip it in his face. No BS, he tanked for a full three minutes before folding. I think everyone at the table knew I was just free-roll pushing him off a chop. Everyone but him! 😆😅🤣😂🤪
If Hero is raising River bets up to 1/2 pot by V .. then why shocked when V does same? Perhaps the sizing is unexpected but the action shouldn't be?
Since loose Player range is much wider do we discount the speech, which is typically the nuts for on OMC?
I think I lean call as well due to River check, but would consider MY table image in V eyes as well as to whether V expects a bet or not. GL
Villain is out of his mind.
5-10-20 $2500 cap still going at Hollywood Park 👍
based on villain comment he thinks its value
but problem is he is unaware he is wrong
“assumption of logic” stands, and preflop assessment of villain overplaying hands while leaning aggressive stands
some players you have to call down
94% of the time, limpcallers are full of it. They've done studies.
What the serious f**k? 77? I can't even.
Agree with caller that the line doesn't make any sense. It's hard to credit any Qx for limp-flatting OOP pre, flopping trips, check-raising for value, getting called, barreling the turn for a super-small size, then going for a check-raise-jam on the river, complete with "f**k it, I'm all-in" speech. This line looks super-fishy and super-bluffy, even with the ridiculous strength implied by the pre-jam speech play.
Poker's not dead...77?😂🤣😂🤣 God bless V's like these...
It pays to know your opponents ❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
That does not help unless you have a hand that beats him. And, believe me, that is as difficult as a hell. Thanks to poker variance. 😢😢😢
.
Every time I enter the pot, a maniac calls. Every time he calls, I missed a flop 100%. Every time I missed a flop, he hits it.
.
Once, only ONCE in a session, I happened to have pocket AA, he folds even before preflop action comes to me???%$#@$&^*(×
.
So, now, go on: develop the theory how to beat a maniac.
Frankly flabbergasted this wasn’t a Q. The “fuck it im all in” is like the nuts 99.9% of the time the same way it is when an OMC says “well I guess it’s time to go home to the wife, all in.”
When in doubt shove. It's like in Jeeping-when in doubt hit the gas
If you have a Q with two queens it's not a set but trips... Q with 3 queens on the board quadriplets? legit question.
The villain’s name was Mikki
Gross would be Qh on river and losing to A3
I'm thinking villain has jacks.
I dont think that villain told the truth that was all in for value. Many poker player are liars at the end of the hand. I think he thought : i have a Queen in my limping range , just rapresent that and hope that Hero folds his pocket pair
Live poker is so profitable lol
wow, with that speech I can't see TT being good here...
Why would the hero ever inquire as to what the villain was thinking here?!?! You see a weird hand like this and you stfu, you just carry on like nothing happened and talk about something totally unrelated. Any response from the villain here is gonna make him look stupid, you also got the possibility now that the whole fkin table is gonna talk about it for 10 minutes, fckin painful! That's the big takeaway from this hand
I put villain on JJ, playing them very passively pre flop. Didn’t think medium pockets by the end or that he would expect to be called by a flush!
People limp with AA kk JJ in SB so you don't fold your bb
Guys dont take this an example. 99% of the time when newbies think ofr a long time and then « fuck It Im all in » they have quads. Even on unpaired boards
if he has quads and he knows you have a pair, and you think its unlikey he has the quads, he will go all in
Eh, his betting line makes perfect sense from a loose weak player. Limp call with a middling pair hoping for a set or a decent draw. Figures you’re full of shit with a weak c-bet on the flop so min raises with his pair. On the turn he really thinks that just maybe his pair is good, but doesn’t want to bet too big and get snapped off. On the river he’s just hoping to showdown and checks. Your half-pot bet is made to get a call so he honestly thinks he’s got a shot with 7s and his all-in nearly pushes you off the best hand. Note, I didn’t say it was a good line, only that it makes logical sense from the perspective of this type of player.
Maybe he put you on a flash because you took five minutes to make a decision
snap fold to the tank re raise! that stupid speech gave it away! Also its much better to err on the side of caution not risk.
😂
THESE VIDEOS DONT HELP! Don’t
Understand how I can flop quad 5s in a 5.6K pot 1/2 on PokerStars and still lose. Runner runner bigger quads. Lmao. Couldn’t have played it any different. Flop Q55. He bet I raise small. He 3 bet jam KK. I call. K turn K river. This is sick. Biggest pot of my life. All I hear in the last week about all these online sites cheating and I 1000% agree. No way they aren’t rigged.
I guessed 88
Hey Bart, have you considered making an app that aggregates data from all the casinos you know? You're probably more aware of all the different cardrooms, configurations, and house-rules than _most_ players.
Hero would almost always check back the flop with a queen, so when he cbets, he's almost announcing he doesn't have one and inviting the villain to bluff him.
That seems logical, unless hero has a hand like TT or JJ, and needs to bet for protection, in case V limped in with some Ax or Kx. Very few players are going to check here, with a plan to check-raise with air, or really any hand, if hero bets, simply because hero would "always" check back with a Q. Hero isn't bet-folding TT+ here, or any Q, so a check-raise as a bluff really doesn't accomplish much in the way of getting hero to fold out a better hand. Hero can pretty much bet his entire range, for value or as a bluff.
That’s exactly why you shouldn’t always check this flop back with a Q. If you always C-bet middle strength hands and slow play monsters, smart players can just run over your C-betting range.
That said…this villain was clearly not a smart player.
I don't know why he'd ever bet turn when he makes quads and then go for a check-raise river. It doesn't make any sense. These people always just decide their opponents have AK in every pot so I wouldn't be vaguely surprised to see him check jamming with any pair. And I said that before I saw the reveal.
Live poker is dead, no money to be made here, folks
LOL!!