Lord of the Rings Book vs. Movie: The King of the Golden Hall
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 เม.ย. 2024
- Peter Jackson’s take on the confrontation of Gandalf on the one hand and Theoden and Grima Wormtonge on the other drastically changes the nature of what is going on in the scene. Some of that is somewhat dictated by the medium of cinema, but some of it is...not.
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My favorite part was Theoden's exorcism👍, when Saruman was knocked from the Palantiri across the room. I'm pretty sure ten pins were knocked down.🤣😆😂
His laughter was infectious 👍🏼
@@Crafty_Spirit
Who knew that the Palantir could be used to possess people?😂 Not even Fëanor.🤣 That whole scene was a clown show.
Love the channel. Would love it more if you included some footage or at least screen stills of the scenes/characters for reference. Thanks!
Every time I try that it results in a copyright claim by Warner Bros., which is a pain to clear up…
@@TolkienLorePodcast Even for stills?😭
In that case maybe some fan art of the characters?
Or heck at this point maybe you could use AI generated images?
@CMA418 stills might work. I might give that a shot. I’m usually pressed for time just getting the video done at all though lol
@@TolkienLorePodcast ❤️❤️🙏
Gimli strode a pace forward, but felt suddenly the hand of Gandalf
clutch him by the shoulder, and he halted, standing stiff as stone.
"In Dwimordene, in Lórien
Seldom have walked the feet of Men,
Few mortal eyes have seen the light
That lies there ever, long and bright.
Galadriel! Galadriel!
Clear is the water of your well;
White is the star in your white hand;
Unmarred, unstained is leaf and land
In Dwimordene, in Lórien
More fair than thoughts of Mortal Men"
Thus Gandalf softly sang, and then suddenly he changed. Casting
his tattered cloak aside, he stood up and leaned no longer on his
staff; and he spoke in a clear cold voice.
*_Everything_* in the book is "a lot more subtle"
It's hard and sometimes impossible to put such subtlety on screen.
Wormtongue's goon squad was dumb though.
Except for the penultimate chapter which is rather gory
In the book think that Gandalf uses his Narya to rekindle hope in Theoden as it is stated that Narya inspire men to resist tyranny.
What are your thoughts on this mini theory
I have a feeling you didn’t finish the video before commenting because I actually discussed this very thing toward the end.
@@TolkienLorePodcast i did finish your vid but I commented mid video my bad 😅
I like the added line”Late is the hour when this conjuror choose to return.” Otherwise I found the scene rather comical particularly Theoden’s transformation from mossy paralytic garden gnome to middle aged blonde Prince Valiant. Theoden was an old man in the book. Too bad the “down on your belly snake” line was omitted.
Excellent analysis! Thank you so much.
Please recall that JRR was a combat veteran and was familiar with what was called shell shock and is now called PTSD. There are a number of points where he addresses battle and it's aftermath. Eowyn, Faramir etc.
Your knowledge is exceptional and well-presented. The only flaw is that the longer I watch the more I'm reminded of all the cringe in the films that keeps me from enjoying them on rewatch. :)
Love your take on this! I'll admit I was very skeptical originally of your theory that Theoden's healing involved no direct magical intervention from Gandalf, but looking back to the text it really makes more sense. Or at least, you could say something "magical" (or rather, providential) occurred with the darkness falling over Meduseld at the right time: a small, divine intervention that Gandalf would be attuned to, and would take advantage of to bring his point home.
Then again, I am also heavily biased against the movie's rendition of this scene, which is still my biggest gripe with The Two Towers (not even the teleporting Elves come CLOSE to it, as far as making my blood boil is concerned): It leaves the crude, blaring, shock-for shock's-sake impression that you'd expect out of a Hammer-Horror movie (which might have been the point, as Jackson was a fan of these). And I love my Hammer movies, but it doesn't mingle well at all with Tolkien's work.
(Then again, a Hammer Lord of the Rings adaptation... Now that would be something to rival even the Soviet Hobbit!)
My melon Geek, As usual, excellent. I can only say the movies, even as good as they are, don't give the director enough space or time to adequately show the story for what it truly is. This is why I have always thought that the only realistic solution would be to make Tolkien's legendarium into a series for TV/Internet. Only then can the vistas of ME and the depth of his characters come shining through. Till this happens, Jackson's movies are still the best screen adaptations. But nobody holds a candle to the Professor himself. You are, melon Geek, one of the rare breed who truly understands this. Namarie.
I agree the thugs were pointless. I also thought Théoden's sudden transformation from looking like he was at death's door to being hale and hearty again was overdone. Beyond that, I don't have a problem with the rest of the scene.
I think it would have been easy enough to adapt the book scene to the screen, even if you have to 'dumb it down' a bit to make it more obvious. You just find the balance between Theoden's inaction in the movie and Grima's role. Basically, if one removes Theoden's greeting and replaces it with Grima speaking for the King from the start, then the gap between Theoden's hostility and then acceptance of Gandalf's words is less great. If one includes the lightning, that would be enough of an audiovisual clue that Gandalf manages to startle some cobwebs off Theoden, and make his subsequent actions more understandable.
Although to be honest, I think the movie audience would have been willing to go with Gandalf just convincing Theoden. He was played by Sir Ian McKellen, after all. :)
Fair point lol
a book is a very different from a movie because it has to be in many ways. I think PJ made this scene as good as it can be in movie form.
I was in Sofia, Bulgaria several years ago. I saw two Bulgarians get into an all out punch out with four or five Turks.
Completely one sided, the two Slavs wiped the floor with the group, literally knocking some out and making the rest run away after being repeatedly walloped.
The idea of the three greatest warriors in Middle Earth knocking out in record time a group of thugs in a brawl is not that big a leap.
Of course it wasn't in the books to be sure, and I agree it is unnecessary, just a small point I wanted to make 🙂
Legolas's stage backfist is an insult to martial artists everywhere.
Just curious. Other LOTR channels use clips from the films to illustrate their points, but you impersonate the actors speaking the lines. Can you explain? Let me add that I enjoy your impersonations. Did you have to practice a lot?
Actually I think the reason I’m fairly good at it is because I used to imitate voices and accents a lot as a kid, particularly with singing and playing with LEGO 😅. But the main reason I don’t use clips is that it’s time-consuming, and unlike most of the other channels mine is really just a side hobby that I barely have time for. Also fighting off the copyright claims is an absolute pain in the derrière….
Did Gandalf and the Three Hunters reach Edoras earlier in the year in the film than in the book? I ask because Aragorn later tells Eowyn that he is 87 years old whereas, in the book, he has reached his 88th birthday by then. Maybe he simply forgot about his birthday?
The question has ramifications for the Hobbit films. My best estimate is that Aragorn was either 25 or 26 years old during Peter Jackson's Battle of the Five Armies (Third Age 2940 in the films). If Aragorn was 25 then he probably could not yet have met Gandalf for the first time (unlike the timeline given in Appendix B where they met in 2956). After all, one would think that the wizard might have attempted to recruit the help of the young Ranger if they knew each other. If Aragorn was instead 26 years old, he and Gandalf might have first become acquainted in the previous year. Of course we still have the issue of Gandalf not calling upon "Strider" for the Quest of Erebor.
The appendices don’t make clear exactly when he was born so it’s not obvious whether he was 87 or 88. As for the implications for the Hobbit, since that happened 77 years earlier (60 to Bilbo’s 111th birthday plus 17 to when Frodo leaves), he would actually have been only 10.
@@TolkienLorePodcast What are you on about? The appendices to The Lord of the Rings give us the precise birth date of Aragorn II: 1 March, 2931. Aragorn was 87 years old when Frodo and his companions first met him in Bree. Gandalf the White revealed himself to the Three Hunters on Aragorn's eighty-eighth birthday. How do you not know this???
Obviously, I was asking about the Aragorn of Peter Jackson's films, not the Aragorn of the legendarium. The movie timeline seems to be (years are Third Age):
2940: The Quest of Erebor. Aragorn is a young Ranger called Strider.
3000: Bilbo Baggins' eleventy-first birthday.
3001: Frodo and Sam (joined by Merry and Pippin) depart from the Shire. The Council of Elrond. The War of the Ring begins.
3002: The One Ring is destroyed. The end of the War of the Ring.
3005: The Ringbearers depart from Middle-earth.
@otaku-sempai2197 hmm, now I’m wondering if the older edition I had didn’t have that precise date, because I only remember the year. But you’re right, in the movie the implication is that Aragorn would be an adult, but I don’t remember Bilbo’s age in the Hobbit ever being stated so it’s not clear how many years passed between Erebor and his 111th birthday. If we assume his proper age of 50-51 then Aragorn would have been 27 or so.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Bilbo was born on 22 September, 2290 (1290 S.R.). His 51st birthday fell when the Company arrived at Lake-town (year 2941) and he celebrated his 111st birthday in 3001. Subtract one year for the films for each of those dates. The date of Bilbo's birth is not given in The Hobbit (book). The information is all in The Lord of the Rings and the appendices. The year of film-Bilbo's birthday party is given in FotR-EE (though I think it's also given in the standard edition but in Shire-Reckoning).
Per the book, yes, but since the movie cut out 17 years it’s not obvious they stuck to the timeline for Bilbo’s age lol
I'm a writer and I want to quote Tolkien in my book, and it would be fair use but I'm still afraid of the Tolkien estate's lawyers. How do youtubers like yourself get to quote copyrighted material (hell, even Tolkien's name is copyrighted) and not get sued? Is the estate more reasonable than I expected?
Quoting stuff is really hard to hit for copyright if the source is attributed properly. Unless you just quote enormous passages you’ll never run into trouble most likely.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Specifically I'd be including two quotes: one from Letter 19, and another from a speech he gave at Oxford U. Altogether the word count between the two is only about 70 words. Used for purposes of analysis and critique, to support larger arguments being built in the book. I know I'd have a good argument in court, but what's holding me back is that the estate lawyers could just be feeling saucy one day and call me into court just to maintain precedent and punish me with court fees. They've done it to fanfic writers, haven't they (I'm not talking about Polychron, that guy picked a fight with them)? Thanks for your input! And don't worry, you have it here in writing that I'm not gonna hold you liable for giving legal advice if they do come to get me haha
@Easttowest45 that’s have no case based on what you’re telling me. Plenty of TH-camrs use more than that and don’t get in trouble.
AS a Tolkien purist, I first read LOTR 52 years ago, I did NOT like the movies. Every change was wrong if only for the reason that it was a change.
I love your work
Think of it as Gandalef doing PTSD counseling. I've been through it, and yes, you feel and act younger
Are you accusing Peter Jackson of playing to the lowest common denominator .... because he doesn't trust the audience to listen to the words ?