Tl;dr= Heavy armor min-maxxing works just fine. My defense of the heavy armor tank goes as follows (feel free to point out anything I missed or check my math if necessary): Race= Musetouched aasimar (+2 Dex, +2 Cha, access to aasimar race feats) Class build: Tower Shield fighter 17/Divine Defender paladin 3 Reasons for class selections: Tower shield fighters gain Tower Shield Training (3rd), improving their armor training if they have a tower shield, and Tower Shield Defense (9th), which gives them their tower shield's AC bonus against touch attacks. Paladin gains DR bypass and AC spike with Smite Evil (1st), save bonuses with Divine Grace (2nd), and the divine defender specifically gains access to a source of sacred bonus to AC (Shared Defense, 3rd) Feats Required: Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Angelic Blood, Angelic Flesh (steel), Improved Natural Armor x8 (we are min-maxxing, after all, plus we have some spare fighter bonus feats to pick up some of the slack) AC bonus sources: Angelic Flesh/Improved Natural Armor x8: +9 Amulet of Natural Armor +5: Provides a +5 enhancement bonus to natural AC bonus Final Natural Armor bonus: +14 natural armor bonus +5 Heavy Fortification Mithral Full Plate: +14 armor bonus Armor Check Penalty (with tower shield training): 0 Maximum Dex. AC Bonus (with tower shield training): 8 +5 mithral tower shield (with Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus): +11 shield bonus Armor Check Penalty (with tower shield training): 2 Maximum Dex. AC Bonus (with tower shield training): 9 Ring of Protection +5: +5 deflection bonus Divine Defender Shared Defense= +1 sacred bonus for (Charisma modifier= 13) rounds Dex. at 20th level= 26 (because our armor caps the effectiveness) Dex. bonus to AC= +8 Notes: Assuming a natural rolled 18 at 1st level, +2 from musetouched aasimar, belt of physical perfection +6, no other increases required Charisma at 20th level= 36 Charisma-based deflection bonus to AC (during Smite Evil, replaces bonus from ring of protection)= +13 Notes: Assuming a natural rolled 18 at 1st level, +2 from musetouched aasimar, headband of mental superiority +6, +5 from 5 ability score increases, +5 from tome of leadership and understanding +5 defending weapon= +5 bonus to AC, stacks with all other bonuses Results (without/with defending weapon AC bonus): AC: 63/68, increases to 71/76 against Smite Evil target Touch AC: 37/42, increases to 45/50 against Smite Evil target Flat-footed AC: 55/60, increases to 63/68 against Smite Evil target Additional considerations: Instant total cover granted by tower shield, which the fighter may move as an immediate action (Immediate Repositioning, 13th); fighter may move at normal speed in heavy armor, as tower shield training alters armor training (hooray) Notes: Dodge not included because its effect on final AC is equivalent to taking Improved Natural Armor once, and it's trading one point of touch AC for one point of flat-footed AC, so ultimately it's the user's choice. If a party companion is using a shield, Shield Wall can be traded in for one of the Improved Natural Armors (effect would be at least equivalent and usually superior, considering the tower shield AC bonus would apply to Touch AC and the natural armor bonus would not). Yes, I am aware that the video did not mention defending weapons, and they could be used by the no-armor build as well. Yes, I am aware that the fighter is less interesting to play than a magus, but again- we are min-maxxing. Yes, I am aware that the no-armor build above could also feature a musetouched aasimar with Angelic Blood, Angelic Flesh and 8 Improved Natural Armor feats. Conclusion: The results here seem at least comparable to the proposed no-armor build above- while in places the final result may be lower, and the no-armor build could certainly be optimized further to outstrip this proposed build, the point here was to put as much attention into an optimized heavy armor build as BDG put into the no-armor build above. I enjoy the channel greatly, but BDG didn't really try that hard to seriously build the heavy armor character, at least from where I was standing. If the goal was to force Cthulhu (or another CR 30 baddie of your choosing) to crit-fish against the character or use his mythic surges, I feel this build does satisfactorily as well. P.S. Enjoying the recent 2nd Edition Playtest content- I may have taken issue with bits of this video, but keep up the good stuff, BDG! :) Edit: Edited to reflect variance between not using defending weapon bonus and maximizing defending weapon bonus
Well a fighter would gain a higher max dex bonus to AC with heavy armor thanks to armor training. So using Mithral full plate would actually grant a max dex bonus of +7.
I m confused about one thing though... How do you start with scores that high? I tried going with 20 point buy and to get 2 18 scores I have to have 7 in EVERYTHING else. (Not including racials.)
You can't stack shield bonuses. They both provide a shield bonus to AC; typed bonuses wont stack with other typed bonuses of the same kind, eg. Shield and Shield, Natural and Natural, Deflection and Deflection ect. the only exception being Dodge bonuses which will stack with each-other. Otherwise I really loved the video keep up the great content.
Oh really? I knew about named things not stacking, but I assumed that shields were an exception since with two shields you could block with both arms. All the more reason to ditch heavy armor then I say!
@@BlackDragonGamingOfficial wouldn't scaled fist monk be better then normal monk? They get the a.c. bonus (and spell bonuses) based off of charisma instead of wisdom, meaning less stats needed. They also get rogue evasion bonus at 2nd level. Swordlord prestige would also be worth dipping into because they get further a.c. bonuses while using an Aldori dueling sword at first level.
so I'm trying this build in a game where we start at 10th level , Scaled fist 1, Elightened Paladin 2, Swashbuckler 1, Kensai 6 I'm coming in at an average 30 damage per round (Agile Keen Katana D8+8, +6d6 Intensified Shocking Grasp ~ 4+8+18 = 30) Is this right? this seems low? Defense is great but I feel like im probably not optimizing the outgoing damage as well as I could be?
Yes. Theres a BD video on that already. Doing it myself and an Empowered Intensify Shocking Grasp + Bladebound increase crit chance and a thornblade (15-20 crit mod) is doing more than our Gunslinger's crits.
My only hangup on it is that the we wouldn't get the ability to gain points from our arcane pool back like a swashbuckler does with panache, so we could feasibly burn out our entire arcane pool in a round or two just parrying. This video is speaking more to the fact that dexterous characters can out-AC the heavy armor guys, but if I were to get really in-depth on the offensive side of this build, I would reccommed dipping inspired blade swashbuckler, since it tracks panache using our INT as well as our CHA, so the already MAD magus can have his cake and parry it too. However, you are still quite correct, and I could have been more clear. Thanks for bringing it up!
kinda surprised the no armor tank didn't include an oracle level with the sidestep revelation since I didn't hear anything about maxing out dex. and since we are maxing out charisma this would be a given. since it should stack and play nicely with the rest
I don't think this build works as presented. Your dip into Kensai with canny defense, assuming 1 level of Kensai, only adds +1 Int bonus to AC regardless of Int Score. The ability reads "a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) PER DUELIST CLASS LEVEL level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class", which means that in order to obtain any real benefit from this, you'd have have levels in Kensai equal to your Int bonus.
It's weird how I coulda swore that I did more than dip kensai when I made this, I knew you had to because of canny defense. Ah well, chalk it up to an error on an old video
You could swap out the scaled fist archetype for a normal monk so you still get the WIS to your AC and then get a lore/nature oracle for the CHA to armor instead of the DEX. You wouldn't need the belt that way and could profit 3 times from the headband and also wouldn't need the 20 DEX. And from what I understand of the Enlightened Paladin you might actually be able to get 2 more AC from that too but I'm not sure that would stack with the Lore/Nature oracle.
Hey, this video is 2 years old so I hope you see this. when playing a Pathfinder game you usually start at low level and go up the levels one by one. My question knowing this is when is the best moment to start dipping monk paladin and swashbuckler if we want to make this charachter a campaign viable charachter. hope you see this! thanks (great series btw being new to pathfinder i'm learning so much)
Hey there! I usually try to take my dips early, but it depends on the point buy and party makeup, to few points and I might miss entirely, a less than optimized party means I'll take my dips a little later, after the other classes have their feet under them. Hope that helps, let me know if you have any other questions!
Not sure if you see a comment on a video this old. But at what point do you take each level of the alternate class. Is it 16 levels of your main and then you do the others or do you place them along the way
Hey! I like to get my dips out of the way first, usually I'm dipping for a stronger overall character, so getting those down is often the difference between life and death for me.
I'm sure you found other biilds that deal better with armor optimization since this video is over a year old but I just found your Channel and enjoy your content. Have you had the chance yet to play a synthesist Summoner? I've been looking at a build for the campaign I'm going through and I love making my DM angry since he does not min-max but is a hardcore role-player. We're at level 11 and once I buff myself within two to three rounds my Summoner has around 44 AC plus spell resistance and I took a feet that allows me to take extra evolutions for emergencies such as immunities to different energy types or the ability to fly etc etc
Sounds accurate to me! Have you watched A House Divided? I'm playing a gestalt paladin/synthesist and it's a blast. I 100% understand why that class is banned, after my Scaled Fist level and buffs at level 2 I have a 25 AC, which is gnarly. Synvolka has Skilled for most of his evolutions though. Because who doesn't want a +11 to Perception with no ranks assigned at level 2?
Seeing how you came back to reply which I really appreciate. What steps do you take as a player 2 ease a dm into this style of character playing? I'm not a huge min maxer but I do make very effective builds I'm sure I can make them stronger than what they are if I sat down and took a ton of time with them but I just do a decent job making very strong characters. My DM is extremely on the role playing side of the spectrum for Pathfinder. If we could do without combat all together I'm sure he would be much more happy. I've tried my best not to overwhelm him when I build a character but no matter what I do it seems like he is upset with whatever I build. It's almost like he wants me just to play a base fighter without any feats. Leaving this group is not an option because of the area I'm in there's hardly anyone around that plays Pathfinder. Long story short have you ran into issues in the past and how have you dealt with them? Thanks in advance
I definitely always try to do so! You've taken your time to come into my house and say something to me, it would be rude to not respond to ya! I could write a book about this, because I absolutely have this problem a lot, and I used to be that guy as well. There are a couple key points to make for sure. First off, the notion of making one's DM angry with a build is, frankly, toxic behavior at the table. I know I saw similar things in this video, but I'm being facetious 100%. Your GM is correct to build a rich world full of opportunities for players to RP in because that's what the game is at its core. That said, we all like to build really powerful characters, and that's totally OK to do, just realize that it's not about making your DM mad, it's about being effective in combat against your DMs tokens, which are not him. In my experience, both when I've been that guy and when I've had players with that attitude, all that's really accomplished is making everyone uncomfortable. Unfun. If I were you, I see a couple options moving forward for you. First off, how experienced is your GM? If you know more about the game then they do, it's worthwhile to approach them after a game and teach them how CR works (also if you're a synthesist, the party CR goes up by at least 2 IMO, since you have just an entire swimming pool of HP to play with. As a synthesist, you are vulnerable to things that unsummon your eidolon as well, and it's OK to tell your GM this, because they need to know what to use to challenge you. For example, are you using a lot of natural attacks? I once GMed for a synthesist and put him up against this www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/death-worm/ because he would be constantly exposing himself to the Venomous Skin of the monster. Those aside, a session 0 can also solve these problems. If the game is gonna be heavy RP, that's a thing you've gotta be prepped for (and the skilled [diplomacy] evolution with your crazy CHA means you certainly are). To not be is to go to Taco Bell crying out at the top of your voice "WHERE IS THE MCDONALDS I WANT MCDONALDS!" See what I mean? It's OK to want McDonald's, but if the group is at Taco Bell right now, you've gotta eat what you're offered UNTIL you drive to Taco Bell.
The DM is very familiar with 3.5 and he is figuring out Pathfinder easily enough. He does make the encounters challenging for us and we tried to keep the party's very wide ranging when it comes to the classes everyone please. We are currently going through Jade Regent and running into some hiccups. We are right now at level 11 and I'm playing a cross blood Wild Blood sorcerer dealing with fire I have given more thought into taking more party supportive spells versus damaging spells and mainly use my Fireball as mine only damaging spell. I feel the struggles that we have been dealing with have been to fold. The other players at the table make decent characters but the AP is not providing tons of gear that are effective to them for their level. Most gear that we have for our level 11 characters are really meant for level 7 characters. The DM is also not taking into account what classes the characters are playing and changing item drops to benefit them. So most things that we've ended up receiving we sell but unfortunately because we've been in towns that have low gold values for items we can't buy anything worth our level. The second issue that we ran into is that because my character is well optimized I can dish out tons of damage and also keep a good bit of crowd control on the enemies. He has raised the difficulty of the fights to match me against tougher things however he uses those higher level monsters to attack the non optimized players. So now because the other players have not really dabbled into their characters like I have they are at a disadvantage. I guess my original question was more so how do you find ways 2 make your character optimized but be able to provide Amore overall support without outshining the rest of the party. I feel that I could make a character that was mediocre but he wouldn't be the character that I would truly want to play. Sorry for the ramblings it's hard to describe or Express what I'm thinking. it seems like it's a never ending battle of trying to balance a character so that it doesn't outshine the rest of the group but still making something pretty badass that us optimizers would feel happy to play
By all means, ramble away! In APs, the standard difficulty is usually set for 4 players on a 15 point buy. Is this you guys? If not, the difficulty will certainly tip towards easy. Also, casters will almost always eat things like that for breakfast, that's just sort of the nature of their power. So far as the rest of your party goes, you could always help them to optimize? Do they have the desire to be as awesome in combat as your character is? If so, give them a hand! They'll certainly thank you for it.
Cthulhu can also add 1d12 to his dice rolls ten times per day :( also he can summon 2d4 star spawn so we are almost always flanked by him so he's probably going to be +42 attack +6.5 (mythic dice buff) +2 flanking +10.5 average dice roll = 61 to hit even with all that though, he's still missing a 66 AC more than he hits! The really scary thing about him though isn't his melee attacks, but his crazy CMB. with +62 to grapple (+ 1d12 mythic dice +2 flanking +1d20) he's almost certainly going to grapple us, deny us our touch AC, and beat us to death.
FoM is a definitely must against him! I built some pure melee level 20 characters (not allowed to cast spells) designed to kill him solo in a straight fight (without ubercharging, tricking him into a pocket dimemsion, etc) and FoM really hurts because it takes a ring slot, but it's a must. basic attacks and grapple sorted, that just leaves his perma DC40 will effect, his DC 41 reflex effect, his other CMBs... :(
That's a really good question! I've played/coached it a couple times, and really, it always depends on the level of magic in the setting and how early you can buff your stats. In some games, you'll need to wait until you can grab the item crafting feats, but sometimes you'll pull the items you need off the things you fight. Really it's 100% up to the meta.
That feat seems to not fit here, did you mean Antagonize? If so, it’s a mind-affecting effect and thus a lot of stuff will be immune to it. Also since it calls for a save, the chance of it failing does exist (though you can get STR CON CHA to intimidate and WIS CHA to diplomacy so we can get those numbers super high) and thus I don’t trust it too much. Maybe I’ve been fighting too many undead though. The feat could work if you know you’ll be fighting a lot of things that can be affected.
That it is! I feel like the guy with really high Dex and Wis still comes out better though, someone can cast fly on them if necessary. Though I won't turn my nose up at this for my heavy armor builds.
Oh if only..... Still though, the disparity between the two is huge, even with armor training. That's only the fighter as well, the other heavy armor guys don't have that luxury.
Lol yeah. Though if you want a more fun build, scaled fist, oracle paladin. Go with Desna as your God (note that a paladin does not need to worship a lawful good God) and go with the divine fighting technique you get charisma to damage and attack rolls as well. It's a really funny combo. You can even mix in kensai, or swashbuckler as well, but that a lot of multiclassing.
Kensai? Why use Kensai Magus instead of Enlightened Paladin, who gets the same thing as Canny Defense but for Charisma? A straight Enlightened Paladin is likely going to be much stronger than whatever multiclass monster you have here unless you have god tier stat rolls for both INT and CHA. Especially since they get access to Personal Trial, which scales with levels and, unlike regular Smite, can be used against everything. Plus, they get Swift Action Lay on Hands, which is the best self-healing in the game as far as action economy is considered. Also, Bracers of Armor suck. Just buy a Haramaki. It's a Light armor that has no ACP, no ASF, and no Max DEX. It still works fully with both the Kensai and Enlightened Paladin class features, and can be enhanced. Note that you can't enhance both your clothes and Bracers of Armor, since there's an FAQ that prohibits armor stacking, even with Bracers.
Enlightened paladins are sweet too for sure. My build definitely assumes rolls are sweet, and in lower point buys yours is more reliable, but the kensai gets 2/3 arcane spellcasting, which is super valuable. I didn’t know (though I’m not surprised) about the FAQ. Aren’t Bracers of Armor +8 still better than a haramaki though?
In terms of pure numbers, sure, +8 bracers are higher than the 6 AC you get from a +5 Haramaki. However, the Haramaki is far cheaper, and can be enhanced with a host of armor special abilities.
Tl;dr= Heavy armor min-maxxing works just fine.
My defense of the heavy armor tank goes as follows (feel free to point out anything I missed or check my math if necessary):
Race= Musetouched aasimar (+2 Dex, +2 Cha, access to aasimar race feats)
Class build: Tower Shield fighter 17/Divine Defender paladin 3
Reasons for class selections: Tower shield fighters gain Tower Shield Training (3rd), improving their armor training if they have a tower shield, and Tower Shield Defense (9th), which gives them their tower shield's AC bonus against touch attacks. Paladin gains DR bypass and AC spike with Smite Evil (1st), save bonuses with Divine Grace (2nd), and the divine defender specifically gains access to a source of sacred bonus to AC (Shared Defense, 3rd)
Feats Required: Shield Focus, Greater Shield Focus, Angelic Blood, Angelic Flesh (steel), Improved Natural Armor x8 (we are min-maxxing, after all, plus we have some spare fighter bonus feats to pick up some of the slack)
AC bonus sources:
Angelic Flesh/Improved Natural Armor x8: +9
Amulet of Natural Armor +5: Provides a +5 enhancement bonus to natural AC bonus
Final Natural Armor bonus: +14 natural armor bonus
+5 Heavy Fortification Mithral Full Plate: +14 armor bonus
Armor Check Penalty (with tower shield training): 0
Maximum Dex. AC Bonus (with tower shield training): 8
+5 mithral tower shield (with Shield Focus and Greater Shield Focus): +11 shield bonus
Armor Check Penalty (with tower shield training): 2
Maximum Dex. AC Bonus (with tower shield training): 9
Ring of Protection +5: +5 deflection bonus
Divine Defender Shared Defense= +1 sacred bonus for (Charisma modifier= 13) rounds
Dex. at 20th level= 26 (because our armor caps the effectiveness)
Dex. bonus to AC= +8
Notes: Assuming a natural rolled 18 at 1st level, +2 from musetouched aasimar, belt of physical perfection +6, no other increases required
Charisma at 20th level= 36
Charisma-based deflection bonus to AC (during Smite Evil, replaces bonus from ring of protection)= +13
Notes: Assuming a natural rolled 18 at 1st level, +2 from musetouched aasimar, headband of mental superiority +6, +5 from 5 ability score increases, +5 from tome of leadership and understanding
+5 defending weapon= +5 bonus to AC, stacks with all other bonuses
Results (without/with defending weapon AC bonus):
AC: 63/68, increases to 71/76 against Smite Evil target
Touch AC: 37/42, increases to 45/50 against Smite Evil target
Flat-footed AC: 55/60, increases to 63/68 against Smite Evil target
Additional considerations: Instant total cover granted by tower shield, which the fighter may move as an immediate action (Immediate Repositioning, 13th); fighter may move at normal speed in heavy armor, as tower shield training alters armor training (hooray)
Notes: Dodge not included because its effect on final AC is equivalent to taking Improved Natural Armor once, and it's trading one point of touch AC for one point of flat-footed AC, so ultimately it's the user's choice. If a party companion is using a shield, Shield Wall can be traded in for one of the Improved Natural Armors (effect would be at least equivalent and usually superior, considering the tower shield AC bonus would apply to Touch AC and the natural armor bonus would not). Yes, I am aware that the video did not mention defending weapons, and they could be used by the no-armor build as well. Yes, I am aware that the fighter is less interesting to play than a magus, but again- we are min-maxxing. Yes, I am aware that the no-armor build above could also feature a musetouched aasimar with Angelic Blood, Angelic Flesh and 8 Improved Natural Armor feats.
Conclusion: The results here seem at least comparable to the proposed no-armor build above- while in places the final result may be lower, and the no-armor build could certainly be optimized further to outstrip this proposed build, the point here was to put as much attention into an optimized heavy armor build as BDG put into the no-armor build above. I enjoy the channel greatly, but BDG didn't really try that hard to seriously build the heavy armor character, at least from where I was standing. If the goal was to force Cthulhu (or another CR 30 baddie of your choosing) to crit-fish against the character or use his mythic surges, I feel this build does satisfactorily as well.
P.S. Enjoying the recent 2nd Edition Playtest content- I may have taken issue with bits of this video, but keep up the good stuff, BDG! :)
Edit: Edited to reflect variance between not using defending weapon bonus and maximizing defending weapon bonus
And keep up we shall! Thanks for showing me your build
Well a fighter would gain a higher max dex bonus to AC with heavy armor thanks to armor training. So using Mithral full plate would actually grant a max dex bonus of +7.
These videos are so useful, thanks for all the work
Of course!
I m confused about one thing though... How do you start with scores that high? I tried going with 20 point buy and to get 2 18 scores I have to have 7 in EVERYTHING else. (Not including racials.)
I'm also very confused by this, since I had the exact same problems. Yes I realize I'm 4 years late but hey I'm here lol.
You can't stack shield bonuses. They both provide a shield bonus to AC; typed bonuses wont stack with other typed bonuses of the same kind, eg. Shield and Shield, Natural and Natural, Deflection and Deflection ect. the only exception being Dodge bonuses which will stack with each-other.
Otherwise I really loved the video keep up the great content.
Oh really? I knew about named things not stacking, but I assumed that shields were an exception since with two shields you could block with both arms. All the more reason to ditch heavy armor then I say!
@@BlackDragonGamingOfficial wouldn't scaled fist monk be better then normal monk? They get the a.c. bonus (and spell bonuses) based off of charisma instead of wisdom, meaning less stats needed. They also get rogue evasion bonus at 2nd level.
Swordlord prestige would also be worth dipping into because they get further a.c. bonuses while using an Aldori dueling sword at first level.
Can you do a build breakdown so we can build it, feats and all that?
Monk with the crain style feats was a lot of fun
I can imagine! I played Snapping Turtle Style once and that was a blast. Grab ALL the things!
well I was going to attempt this build but how the heck do you start out with 18's in 3 different stats
so I'm trying this build in a game where we start at 10th level , Scaled fist 1, Elightened Paladin 2, Swashbuckler 1, Kensai 6
I'm coming in at an average 30 damage per round (Agile Keen Katana D8+8, +6d6 Intensified Shocking Grasp ~ 4+8+18 = 30)
Is this right? this seems low?
Defense is great but I feel like im probably not optimizing the outgoing damage as well as I could be?
Just a quick realization that you could archetype stack the kensai with blade bound to increase damage, right?
Yes. Theres a BD video on that already. Doing it myself and an Empowered Intensify Shocking Grasp + Bladebound increase crit chance and a thornblade (15-20 crit mod) is doing more than our Gunslinger's crits.
You can use Flamboyant Arcana to get Opportune Parry and Reposte as a Magus.
My only hangup on it is that the we wouldn't get the ability to gain points from our arcane pool back like a swashbuckler does with panache, so we could feasibly burn out our entire arcane pool in a round or two just parrying. This video is speaking more to the fact that dexterous characters can out-AC the heavy armor guys, but if I were to get really in-depth on the offensive side of this build, I would reccommed dipping inspired blade swashbuckler, since it tracks panache using our INT as well as our CHA, so the already MAD magus can have his cake and parry it too. However, you are still quite correct, and I could have been more clear. Thanks for bringing it up!
kinda surprised the no armor tank didn't include an oracle level with the sidestep revelation since I didn't hear anything about maxing out dex. and since we are maxing out charisma this would be a given. since it should stack and play nicely with the rest
I don't think this build works as presented. Your dip into Kensai with canny defense, assuming 1 level of Kensai, only adds +1 Int bonus to AC regardless of Int Score. The ability reads "a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) PER DUELIST CLASS LEVEL level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class", which means that in order to obtain any real benefit from this, you'd have have levels in Kensai equal to your Int bonus.
It's weird how this video stood this long without someone calling me on it. Though I think I did intend to run Kensai up to 13th to get full INT
ya I just noticed because even though I watched it previously it was just FYI at the time. This time I looked it up specifically to plot out a build.
It's weird how I coulda swore that I did more than dip kensai when I made this, I knew you had to because of canny defense. Ah well, chalk it up to an error on an old video
You could swap out the scaled fist archetype for a normal monk so you still get the WIS to your AC and then get a lore/nature oracle for the CHA to armor instead of the DEX. You wouldn't need the belt that way and could profit 3 times from the headband and also wouldn't need the 20 DEX. And from what I understand of the Enlightened Paladin you might actually be able to get 2 more AC from that too but I'm not sure that would stack with the Lore/Nature oracle.
That is also true! I never play oracles, so I always forget how broken they can be. CHA to all the things!
Hey, this video is 2 years old so I hope you see this. when playing a Pathfinder game you usually start at low level and go up the levels one by one. My question knowing this is when is the best moment to start dipping monk paladin and swashbuckler if we want to make this charachter a campaign viable charachter.
hope you see this! thanks (great series btw being new to pathfinder i'm learning so much)
Hey there! I usually try to take my dips early, but it depends on the point buy and party makeup, to few points and I might miss entirely, a less than optimized party means I'll take my dips a little later, after the other classes have their feet under them. Hope that helps, let me know if you have any other questions!
@@BlackDragonGamingOfficial yeah it helps a bunch thanks
No prob!
A friend of mine let us run gestalt, I ran my favorite combo Kensai/Swashbuckler. We only played for 5 levels and I don't think I was ever hit...
Sounds about right, +1 for a wonderful combo!
Not sure if you see a comment on a video this old. But at what point do you take each level of the alternate class. Is it 16 levels of your main and then you do the others or do you place them along the way
Hey! I like to get my dips out of the way first, usually I'm dipping for a stronger overall character, so getting those down is often the difference between life and death for me.
I'm sure you found other biilds that deal better with armor optimization since this video is over a year old but I just found your Channel and enjoy your content. Have you had the chance yet to play a synthesist Summoner? I've been looking at a build for the campaign I'm going through and I love making my DM angry since he does not min-max but is a hardcore role-player. We're at level 11 and once I buff myself within two to three rounds my Summoner has around 44 AC plus spell resistance and I took a feet that allows me to take extra evolutions for emergencies such as immunities to different energy types or the ability to fly etc etc
Sounds accurate to me! Have you watched A House Divided? I'm playing a gestalt paladin/synthesist and it's a blast. I 100% understand why that class is banned, after my Scaled Fist level and buffs at level 2 I have a 25 AC, which is gnarly.
Synvolka has Skilled for most of his evolutions though. Because who doesn't want a +11 to Perception with no ranks assigned at level 2?
Seeing how you came back to reply which I really appreciate. What steps do you take as a player 2 ease a dm into this style of character playing? I'm not a huge min maxer but I do make very effective builds I'm sure I can make them stronger than what they are if I sat down and took a ton of time with them but I just do a decent job making very strong characters. My DM is extremely on the role playing side of the spectrum for Pathfinder. If we could do without combat all together I'm sure he would be much more happy. I've tried my best not to overwhelm him when I build a character but no matter what I do it seems like he is upset with whatever I build. It's almost like he wants me just to play a base fighter without any feats. Leaving this group is not an option because of the area I'm in there's hardly anyone around that plays Pathfinder. Long story short have you ran into issues in the past and how have you dealt with them? Thanks in advance
I definitely always try to do so! You've taken your time to come into my house and say something to me, it would be rude to not respond to ya!
I could write a book about this, because I absolutely have this problem a lot, and I used to be that guy as well. There are a couple key points to make for sure.
First off, the notion of making one's DM angry with a build is, frankly, toxic behavior at the table. I know I saw similar things in this video, but I'm being facetious 100%. Your GM is correct to build a rich world full of opportunities for players to RP in because that's what the game is at its core. That said, we all like to build really powerful characters, and that's totally OK to do, just realize that it's not about making your DM mad, it's about being effective in combat against your DMs tokens, which are not him. In my experience, both when I've been that guy and when I've had players with that attitude, all that's really accomplished is making everyone uncomfortable. Unfun.
If I were you, I see a couple options moving forward for you. First off, how experienced is your GM? If you know more about the game then they do, it's worthwhile to approach them after a game and teach them how CR works (also if you're a synthesist, the party CR goes up by at least 2 IMO, since you have just an entire swimming pool of HP to play with. As a synthesist, you are vulnerable to things that unsummon your eidolon as well, and it's OK to tell your GM this, because they need to know what to use to challenge you. For example, are you using a lot of natural attacks? I once GMed for a synthesist and put him up against this www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/death-worm/ because he would be constantly exposing himself to the Venomous Skin of the monster.
Those aside, a session 0 can also solve these problems. If the game is gonna be heavy RP, that's a thing you've gotta be prepped for (and the skilled [diplomacy] evolution with your crazy CHA means you certainly are). To not be is to go to Taco Bell crying out at the top of your voice "WHERE IS THE MCDONALDS I WANT MCDONALDS!" See what I mean? It's OK to want McDonald's, but if the group is at Taco Bell right now, you've gotta eat what you're offered UNTIL you drive to Taco Bell.
The DM is very familiar with 3.5 and he is figuring out Pathfinder easily enough. He does make the encounters challenging for us and we tried to keep the party's very wide ranging when it comes to the classes everyone please. We are currently going through Jade Regent and running into some hiccups. We are right now at level 11 and I'm playing a cross blood Wild Blood sorcerer dealing with fire I have given more thought into taking more party supportive spells versus damaging spells and mainly use my Fireball as mine only damaging spell. I feel the struggles that we have been dealing with have been to fold. The other players at the table make decent characters but the AP is not providing tons of gear that are effective to them for their level. Most gear that we have for our level 11 characters are really meant for level 7 characters. The DM is also not taking into account what classes the characters are playing and changing item drops to benefit them. So most things that we've ended up receiving we sell but unfortunately because we've been in towns that have low gold values for items we can't buy anything worth our level. The second issue that we ran into is that because my character is well optimized I can dish out tons of damage and also keep a good bit of crowd control on the enemies. He has raised the difficulty of the fights to match me against tougher things however he uses those higher level monsters to attack the non optimized players. So now because the other players have not really dabbled into their characters like I have they are at a disadvantage. I guess my original question was more so how do you find ways 2 make your character optimized but be able to provide Amore overall support without outshining the rest of the party. I feel that I could make a character that was mediocre but he wouldn't be the character that I would truly want to play. Sorry for the ramblings it's hard to describe or Express what I'm thinking. it seems like it's a never ending battle of trying to balance a character so that it doesn't outshine the rest of the group but still making something pretty badass that us optimizers would feel happy to play
By all means, ramble away!
In APs, the standard difficulty is usually set for 4 players on a 15 point buy. Is this you guys? If not, the difficulty will certainly tip towards easy. Also, casters will almost always eat things like that for breakfast, that's just sort of the nature of their power.
So far as the rest of your party goes, you could always help them to optimize? Do they have the desire to be as awesome in combat as your character is? If so, give them a hand! They'll certainly thank you for it.
Add 2 levels of dreadnought barbarian and you can keep your dex in the surprise round
Cthulhu can also add 1d12 to his dice rolls ten times per day :(
also he can summon 2d4 star spawn so we are almost always flanked by him
so he's probably going to be +42 attack +6.5 (mythic dice buff) +2 flanking +10.5 average dice roll = 61 to hit
even with all that though, he's still missing a 66 AC more than he hits!
The really scary thing about him though isn't his melee attacks, but his crazy CMB. with +62 to grapple (+ 1d12 mythic dice +2 flanking +1d20) he's almost certainly going to grapple us, deny us our touch AC, and beat us to death.
"I'm sure someone out there made sure to prep Freedom Of Movement, right?" -Famous last words of Kenny the Kensai
FoM is a definitely must against him!
I built some pure melee level 20 characters (not allowed to cast spells) designed to kill him solo in a straight fight (without ubercharging, tricking him into a pocket dimemsion, etc) and FoM really hurts because it takes a ring slot, but it's a must.
basic attacks and grapple sorted, that just leaves his perma DC40 will effect, his DC 41 reflex effect, his other CMBs... :(
Gotta double-dip paladin so we don't get instadead!
It's so good it's hard to build anything that's not lawful neutral xD
For sure. I miss playing chaotic characters :/
At what character lvl would you do the multi-class lvls if you were play this build though a campaign?
That's a really good question! I've played/coached it a couple times, and really, it always depends on the level of magic in the setting and how early you can buff your stats. In some games, you'll need to wait until you can grab the item crafting feats, but sometimes you'll pull the items you need off the things you fight. Really it's 100% up to the meta.
What about the taunt feat
That feat seems to not fit here, did you mean Antagonize? If so, it’s a mind-affecting effect and thus a lot of stuff will be immune to it. Also since it calls for a save, the chance of it failing does exist (though you can get STR CON CHA to intimidate and WIS CHA to diplomacy so we can get those numbers super high) and thus I don’t trust it too much. Maybe I’ve been fighting too many undead though. The feat could work if you know you’ll be fighting a lot of things that can be affected.
Black Dragon Gaming i dont know what it is called but that might be it i heard about it in a video from d6 damage
I love comparing bracers of armor +8 with a non magical full plate for comparison... The strawman is strong with this one
I assume this is not 2e
Yep! Old old 1e video
I don’t know. Celestial plate is some really good heavy armor.
That it is! I feel like the guy with really high Dex and Wis still comes out better though, someone can cast fly on them if necessary. Though I won't turn my nose up at this for my heavy armor builds.
If only fighters got some kind of armor training...
Oh if only.....
Still though, the disparity between the two is huge, even with armor training. That's only the fighter as well, the other heavy armor guys don't have that luxury.
Lol yeah. Though if you want a more fun build, scaled fist, oracle paladin. Go with Desna as your God (note that a paladin does not need to worship a lawful good God) and go with the divine fighting technique you get charisma to damage and attack rolls as well. It's a really funny combo. You can even mix in kensai, or swashbuckler as well, but that a lot of multiclassing.
I'm actually working on a bard that TWF's starknives in this vein. Maybe a little Snake Style as well, we'll see!
Never done it with a bard, though I can see a lot of good synergy. Love the series btw, as well as the second edition stuff.
Thanks dude!
Kensai? Why use Kensai Magus instead of Enlightened Paladin, who gets the same thing as Canny Defense but for Charisma? A straight Enlightened Paladin is likely going to be much stronger than whatever multiclass monster you have here unless you have god tier stat rolls for both INT and CHA. Especially since they get access to Personal Trial, which scales with levels and, unlike regular Smite, can be used against everything. Plus, they get Swift Action Lay on Hands, which is the best self-healing in the game as far as action economy is considered.
Also, Bracers of Armor suck. Just buy a Haramaki. It's a Light armor that has no ACP, no ASF, and no Max DEX. It still works fully with both the Kensai and Enlightened Paladin class features, and can be enhanced. Note that you can't enhance both your clothes and Bracers of Armor, since there's an FAQ that prohibits armor stacking, even with Bracers.
Enlightened paladins are sweet too for sure. My build definitely assumes rolls are sweet, and in lower point buys yours is more reliable, but the kensai gets 2/3 arcane spellcasting, which is super valuable.
I didn’t know (though I’m not surprised) about the FAQ. Aren’t Bracers of Armor +8 still better than a haramaki though?
In terms of pure numbers, sure, +8 bracers are higher than the 6 AC you get from a +5 Haramaki. However, the Haramaki is far cheaper, and can be enhanced with a host of armor special abilities.
That I will give you. I might be a little spoiled with my wealth by level out here!
@@ShadowSaberBaroxio
The haramaki is great at lower levels to tide you over until you can get the needed feats to start crafting bracers of armor.
your DM can always cheat on the die roll behind his wall so all this theory crafting is useless really
Well, in that case I might think we should look into a new GM then.
And then the whole player group would be happy their DM takes the good decision.
I want to p lay this now. Lol
It is definitely a boatload of fun!