Having spent over two decades now working for UP (send help) and having operated everything from ex SP SD9's all the way up to Tier-4 compliant units, the answer as to which is best is complicated. For road units, GE is better in every way. Better riding, better power, better dynamics, better cabs, better electrics, quieter and more comfortable to be in, better in every way; period. EMD is only a factor in the road unit game simply due to their units generally costing less; albeit for a reason. On the opposite end of the spectrum when talking about road switching operations, EMD's are better. Even road switching with 6-axle units is still in EMD's favor. They load faster, they (usually) are easier to see out of in reverse moves, and they simply allow us to do our work more efficiently. That said, they are rougher riding and louder which does have an effect on you by the end of your shift. Admittedly though, it's still better than dealing with GEVO's in similar assignments as they take forever to load, and it feels reminiscent of the U-Boat days where the throttle and the speed seem to be out of sync from one another. So in switching moves you're constantly fighting to get the unit to maintain a constant speed due to it either taking forever to load, or loading too much for what you're doing. On road freights those problems are a moot point. So whose best? It depends on the circumstances. Though for all the praise I give GE's for road units, their C4's leave a lot to be desired for three primary reasons. At least within the limited time I've spent dealing with them. The first being they are rougher riding than you would expect at slower speeds. With weight off the center axle it takes some of the shock absorption out of the trucks suspension. It's not intolerable but is annoying. The second flaw being they simply don't pull like they should. GE desperately wants to dupe you into believing that software can make up for a lack of physical traction motors but it just can't. It's simple physics. It's a great platform neutered by bean counters. The third reason being the most obvious with them having an absolute relentless propensity for wheel slip. Under power on dry rails you still will deal with wheel slip. If you have wet rails, good luck. Even in dynamic braking the sanders are still fighting a loosing battle trying to get the units to grip. With light weight traffic (pre-PSR) they kind of made sense. With PSR being the rule rather than the exception, I'm not the only on taking bets that the C4's and the C44-9W rebuilds into A1A trucked AC44C4M's will have 6 motor trucks when they get rebuilt. Unless GE pulls one hell of a metaphorical rabbit out of their hat to get the traction issues under control. Especially when it all boils down to 6-motor units simply pull more which translates into fewer units needed to be able to do the same or more work. Which to me at least, is a no brainer in a efficiency obsessed industry. The irony is I have friends on BNSF who share the same sentiments as I. But then again, we aren't paid to think, so what do we know?...
Even as a basic railfan, the C4 makes no sense. “Wow, we save money one 2 less traction motor!” What about the maintenance of the lifting system? And to replace flat-spotted wheels?
@@AutismTakesOn the power. Think if you mashed on the pedal in your car and it took a few seconds for the engine to rev up and start applying power to your wheels. It would take forever to load and that's what it means. 🙂🙋♂️
@@ut000bs Oh... Thank you... Yeah, I imagine that'd be a huge problem. Kind of ironic for GE, though, if you ask me, considering that they built many electric locomotives.
You know something crazy, with out these videos I dont think I would know most of this stuff about trains and locomotive. And i love the fact how you put a lot of information in these videos. I really do enjoy your and I hope you keep making more. Thx for the entertainment a learning opportunitys. Just to let you I sat there and watched all of your videos doing quarantine that how much I enjoyed them.
History tells a different story. It was a true partnership for quite some time. In the earliest days, it was an Alco carbody, with GE mechanicals (straight electrics), or Alco/GE/IR in the case of the first diesel-electrics. Later, Alco bought McIntosh & Seymour designs, and created their own diesels with the 531, 244 and 251 series. They used GE electrical components, right up through the very end in the early 1980's. By that time, it was Bombardier building MLW units with 251 diesels (the design of which was owned by GE since 1977). GE also purchased the carbody designs from Bombardier in 1984, and if you look at something like a C36-7, or a C32-8, the the design influence is fairly obvious. Today, Fairbanks Morse owns the 251, building and servicing them out of Beloit, WI. GE continues to build and service the 7FDL. GE bought Cooper Bessemer designs, and created the 7FDL series.
Rebuilding seems to be a the new thing for railroads. It keeps good units running without having to meet tier 4 regulations. My vote will always be for anything EMD though, they just sound so good. All the best A.C.!
@@Trains21I'm an electrician for NS and they are a nightmare to work on and the worst designed engine on our fleet. They are constantly in our shop for failures and we have replaced several main generators ever since we've got them. Pure garbage. GEs are the best designed locomotive electrically and they are put together better. EMDs seem to have cheaper parts and the cabs on GEs are more comfortable.
@@-watermelonking Yes but I will admit that EMDs have stronger dynamic braking. It normally would take two GEs in power to pull one EMD in Dynamic Braking.
same with the C30-7....every SCL, UP, BNSF, and CSX C30-7 is still running in BRASIL!!!! AMERICA LATIANA LOGISTICA, RUMO, AND MRS....the C30-7 is the best competive for the locomotive you mentioned...but under Obamas emissions...they are now in SA.....ferrovias oriental has C30s as well as peru....as a SA driver the C30-7 is jumpy but out does any EMD!
Modern stuff cannot touch the 40-2. They get rebuilt, they run. GE's get rebuilt. Back in the shop. They have no resale value. Shortlines buy up the 40-2's and they still keep them going.
@@matthewarentzen7465 Put just two SD40-2s on a loaded coal train and let me know how that goes. Sorry but the GEVOs have taken the railroad industry completely.
I always say GE is for the road EMD is for everything else. The gevos are above and beyond the best locomotives I’ve ever ran and in my opinion ever made(performance wise I don’t care what they look like or sound like)
I think both are awesome! GE isn't doing GE so much anymore, nor is GM doing EMD much anymore, but the heritage for each is substantial. I don't hold an engineer card, so my opinion is just that - an opinion. I think the EMD's are more reliable and easier for me to spot which model. I think the GE traction motors are better in use. My true favorite (showing my age) is an ALCO, as I grew up near an assembly plant :)
Enjoyed the video! We get alot of NS run through power here on the Thayer Subdivision (FYI the line is actually owned and operated by BNSF) including NS 1825 featured in your video. Heard lots of, let's just say interesting, stories about these NS motors from BNSF crews, but they're still cool units nonetheless! Incidentally the C4s are extremely unpopular here, but I wouldn't hold my breath that BNSF turns them into 6 motor locomotives anytime soon bc of the extra cost to have the two extra traction motors installed and the fact they've ordered new ET44C4s just recently.
As an onlooker, I don't really care; the railroads will make up their own minds and purchase those that suit their need. All I want to know is which are which, to me they all pretty much look a like.
@@Trains21 no problem! Honestly, I'm indifferent to any builder. A train is a train in my eyes. I get that the perspective changes when you're the one in the cab though
Each locomotive has its strength and weakness. They are whatever that railroad wants. As long as railroads exist, we will see many rebuilds. I look forward to whatever the future brings us. Thank you for another fantastic video. I often share these with crews who I know, and they love your videos. Often saying you know more than even they do. Haha!
As someone who repairs and maintains locomotives for a living, I'll pick a GE over a EMD any day of the week. Without going into specifics, when working on GE locomotives you get the impression the engineers who actually designed the locomotive took into consideration the folks who have to service and maintain the locomotive. Whereas it seems the engineers at EMD must have a contest to see how many nooks and crannies they can fill with hard to reach and service equipment. Even the AC44C6M or as I like to call it, "The Dash 9 that thinks it's an EVO" is a better though out design than the SD70ACC. Not sure what EMD was thinking with the SD70ACC, but even the computer modules are in a somewhat hard to reach location. I understand because of government regulations, the rebuilding cost has a set upper limit thus requiring the reuse of major component on the locomotive, otherwise the locomotive would have to be upgraded to the next Tier emission level. That being said, I believe each builder did the best they could within the monetary restraints they had, but for me GE is still the better product.
I have a question? I noticed that the back of the engine in some of the depths that were shown as an overflap extended out from the back and others are straight back with no overflap. Is this a difference in models or is this a difference in engine or is this something that's new to the engines.? In my area the ones with the overflap are seen a lot.
It’s the type of engines it is. Most of the big guys have them. It’s just part of the radiator. I’m not sure exactly why some don’t but CSX doesn’t have many right now. CN and UP have a lot and CSX and NS don’t. The ones that don’t have the flaps are older for CSX but NS has newer engines that don’t have the flaps 🤷♂️😅I hope that wasn’t too confusing
@@TrainsForever I'm a locomotive electrician for NS and the newer engines that don't have the flared radiator shutters are the SD70 ACC units which are numbered 1800 series. They were rebuilt from the older DC EMD SD70s which are numbered 2500 series. GE did the same thing with the 4000 series which are AC units rebuilt from the DC dash 9s. If you notice the older dash 9s don't have the extended radiator section like the EVOs. That's because the EVOs have 2 Air to Air fans plus a large radiator fan.
Might have something to do with the ratio of locomotives sold. Isn't it something like 3 to 1 GE to EMD? That would certainly be evident in the number waiting to be serviced.
Henry stole the show on this one for sure but I'd like to throw my two cents in the hat if I might. It's patents that killed EMD and still killing them. Tier 1 2 3 and 4 are lawyer moves through lobbying on the congress level getting laws passed that will favor the GE to kill EMD's two-stroke. It's really not hard to see this if you've been following the big diesels from the SD40-2 days. There's EMD Locomotives still working their duties that were built in the 50's like Henry operated. The EMD 2-stroke 567-645-710 engines are some of the most reliable Locomotive engines ever built. Lawyers Lawyers and more Lawyers is the problem I see here. President Trump even stated that our EPA laws were way over board and needed their laws overhauled. Like I said, Lawyers Lawyers and more lawyers is exactly 💯 of what we need right lol lol 😆
@@Trains21 Love you Chanel man. I'm an old alco guy but you got to love the whine of a SD9 knotching up and back down while he's switching cars. Hell I even like listening to SD40-2's & SD45's switching cars. I like'm all even the Fairbanks Morse opposed piston engine two-stroke, and we can't forget the big burly 625rpm straight 6 & 8 de Laverne Baldwin engines. I'm thinking that motor design needs a healthy look over again by Engineers for today's locomotives. Can't beat a big straight 8 for torque and it's got a real reliable low rpm for engine longevity. I really like the SD70ACC and I hope it gets a chance . . . BRIAN
I'd like to add beside Lawyers...Lobbyists also. These are the 'Green People', 'Environmentalists' & Climate Change' lobbies that don't know what they're talking about but will not so much as persuade Lawmakers as intimidate them. It's easy w/ the Democrats, the majority are braindead schlepps for the radical side. The Republicans should put up more of a fight but once they're facing an election opposition they cave for the most part. I fully agree w/ President Trump(we don't have a President currently, just a lap dog), there is unnecessary emission regulation that is doing more harm then good.
@@carmiethompson2676 Another thing I might add that I read some years back that when these tier engines reached a 10 year using rate, the locomotive was no longer within the guidelines of using according to the EPA I believe, not sure who's law that was but I do remember reading. Know I don't know if that law has been removed or not because I'm thinking there still it seems using these older tier locomotives. Like I said I'm not sure. But what a messed up law to begin with but I do remember reading it. Lol
@@brian5606 Interesting. The entire locomotive can be rebuilt but I've see the RR's put a limit of 10-15 years. That could be relating to the electronics. There is also newer electrical tech. that would require the entire loco to be re-manufactured so you might as well buy a brand new one w/ a warranty. But basing a purchase on more climate friendly 'features' is ridiculous. What North, Central & South American RR's contribute to a negative environment is infinitesimal. Trucking is the same way. For Shipping, maybe an argument can be made but I'd start there as well as for Airliners.
I'm an electrician for NS and they have one per truck also. And they suck to work on. They are the worst designed lcocomtive on our fleet and a nightmare. They're constantly in and out the shop for failures. We have replaced several main generators ever since we've got them.
Cool video! I choose the GE’s because I’ve heard their newer locomotives were built better than EMD’s. Have you heard of any engineers opinion on BNSF’s (or FEC’s) ES44C4?
BNSF 's goal was to gradually switch it's fleet to AC traction strictly. ES44C4 & ET44C4 were introduced as AC traction locomotives equal as C44-9W and ES44DC 's performance. Slow elimination of 44DC units with 44AC and 4 powered axles as A-1-A---A-1-A with middle axle capable lifting and lowering according to necessary tractive effort controlled by computer systems, thus increasing or later decreasing adhesion needed for pulling the train. Basically the same thing as previous 6 axle DC power, new locomotive model use AC traction and only 4 powered axles, cheaper to maintain having equivalent pulling power
@@hadesdescent6664 How are they on the road vs the DCs? I get that they’re trying to save money on maintenance, but trains are getting heavier and wouldn’t the missing axles mean less pulling power?
@@Jeragon186 since BNSF have large amount of all GE types of locomotives, >1797 built C44-9W's, 721 ES44DC, 715 ES44AC, SD70ACe units also, they combine types, sometime it's all C4's, quite frequent is ES44DC/C44-9W's and C4 combinations and 70ACes, that's it...
It's patents that killed EMD and still killing them. Tier 1 2 3 and 4 are lawyer moves through lobbying on the congress level getting laws passed that will favor the GE. It's really not hard to see this if you've been following the big diesels from the SD40-2 days. There's EMD Locomotives still working their duties that were built in the 50's. The EMD 2-stroke 567-645-710 engines are some of the most reliable Locomotive engines ever built. Lawyers Lawyers and more Lawyers is the problem I see here. President Trump even stated that our EPA laws were way over board and needed their laws overhauled. Like I said, Lawyers Lawyers and more lawyers is exactly 💯 of what we need right lol lol
Tier 4 is killing both companies. The tier 4 GEVOs are unreliable as all get out, and a pain to work on. But they're not near as bad as that PITA EMD 4 stroke trotline weight.
@@ralfie8801 Your right, but the reliable two-stroke 710 is what I was referring to as getting the $#it end of the stick as far as getting shelved as part of this tier 4 BS. I'm still thinking the laws are way out of control "To Stringent" and Trump was right, the EPA laws are way out of control and need overhauled.
@@brian5606 yea, never saw the appeal of the EPA Tier Laws, not even half of the North American market is Tier 4 Compliant and nothing bad has happened even when operating the old GP7s and SD9s....... well, not just yet. Hell the SD40-2 is still operating fine and well albeit middle aged, something GE still has been rough around and sure some dash 7s still roam around, but only very few. My friend’s dad works at CN, he always had a place in his heart for the SD40s, SD70/75Is, GEVO’s, and Dash 9s, everything else sucked ass, he hated the Tier 4 GEVOs too.
I just don’t understand why GE can’t seem to fix this problem, I just saw a CSX ET44AH burned up on the sides the other day, a Tier 4 newer locomotive already having issues. Idk you’d think they’d have this bug worked out by now. I’ve never seen an EMD burned up on the sides from a bad turbo
I suppose we will have to wait for the cooling system upgrades and the horsepower increase back to 4500, to see how they do side by side. Probably reliability will play a big part on how the guys like GE or EMD. Just my guess.
Good review. In terms of rebuilds, I'd go with the CP Rail SD70ACu because of its looks and for being converted from SD90MACs. Of course, my all time favorite "rebuild" is none other than PRR 4663: the streamlined Doodlebug/motor car.
EMDs will outlast any GE. Hell even ALCO has outlasted most of the old school GEs. GEs are just hard working expendable locomotives that you throw away once you’re done with. EMDs you can opt to upgrade
EMD were ok through the early 70Macs. GE's best unit is the AC44. If you have 2 AC44's in the lead, you're good to go. EMD screwed up by using the 80Mac frame under the 90Mac and later 70Macs. Lousy units. Give me a GP40 for any switching or wayfreight, or a couple of big AC44's on a road train, and scrap the rest.
@@locomotive536 the Dash 9 is fairly similar to the AC44, except it uses traditional DC traction motors, so - from an operating perspective - while they are a very good unit, they still have the same traction limits that any other DC-drive unit does. I've never heard a fellow rail call them that name, usually we call them "toasters". The Dash 9 is a good, solid unit.
The toaster moniker is carried over from the Dash 7 days when the C 36-7 was the toaster king. You couldn't keep a set of grids in one of those, they constantly were burning up.
@@ralfie8801 the C30 were good units, I only ran a C36 once. I remember that I couldn't get it to load. That was very common later, when we got an order of new SD90's. They would flake out just when you really needed the power. I also got to run a pair of new AC60's, which were quite something.
ALCO S HAD NICER LOOKING ENGINES THE ROUNDED CABS LOOKED BETTER THESE ENGINES LOOK LIKE THE DRAWING IN MY CRUMMY GRADE 3 READER ALSO BECAUSE GE DID A DEAL WITH ALCO THEY COPIED A LOT OF THERE ENGINE PLANS
EMD's are garbage. Even the fast loading argument is dumb. It's not 1989 anymore, GE's load just fine. The older Dash 8's/9's were slow, but a C45AC isn't. Especially on grade. C45's can pull anything under any conditions. But foamers beg to differ. Just because somebody's grandpa said EMD's were great back in 1961 doesn't mean that's still the case. It isn't. Talk to any railroader who runs something other than a commuter train. They will tell you the truth.
Ik for a fact that since CAT take over EMD it went down hill quick, also the GEs are not good too.. They are cheap same as EMD now and the SD70ACE rides like shit and not quiet. Only newer EMD was good was the 1995 was the SD75I. The crews loves the ride and it was a quiet ride. Also it doesn't help that the newer locomotives are pretty much run of a Computer.. let me tell you something with a computer will make it run like shit and stupid won't last long. I think we should go to the old school way because it's a lot better then the newest stuff. Sorry I can't imagine the newer GE and EMD or whatever company crap would last 10 years or more tbh 😂 I have talked to someone would works for the railroad and they love the 50 to years old EMD locomotives haven't have issues really tbh, the GEs they had the WORSE luck with them (They don't have junks anymore) The older GE are shit, they are not a good ride and not a quiet ride. Idk about the newer ones but I can give two shits about the new locomotives.. they are completely garbage tbh and will be when they can't fix something because of that stupid computer in it.. yes older locomotives did have some computer in it but the newer ones has a lot in it. Fucking sensors up the ass if one fails the whole thing won't run properly. I seen it with cars, semi trucks I can imagine with the newer locomotives. That's why old stuff is better. Also better made.
Ever since the GMDD plant in London, Ontario was shut down by Caterpillar, EMD power has gone downhill. Caterpillar moved production to a new plant in Muncie, IN after the London plant was shut down. So, Caterpillar has been essentially been building new EMD power for well more than a decade now. It’s hard to tell honestly which is the best builder now. GE did something similar & shut down their locomotive plant in Erie, PA, in favor of a new plant in Fort Worth, TX about 5 or so years ago. GE also sold off their transportation arm to Wabtec. So, Wabtec is building GE power now.
MichLo3 The main problem with GEs are the turbos. GE turbos are shit. If GM or Ford or someone like that made the turbos FOR GE LOCOMOTIVES, chances are they would be running alot better. Not sure about the load time thing, all I know is that GEs still don't load as quick as EMDs. Personaly I like the ACCs and the older Geeps, we have a Geep where I volunteer and it rides very nice, but if the GEVOs had a quicker load time ( it can be slow from a start but should kick in as soon as you move the throttle) and had different turbos, they wouldn't get as much hate
@@Highclearmedia Actually, I don't think so. Make a simple LNG fired boiler, with a tender like the Florida East Coast railway uses. LNG burns very cleanly. Then use the steam for a traditional steam engine. It doesn't produce any soot :) It also won't be very efficient, nor will it have much historical value. But hey, you got a Tier 4 steam locomotive.
You know that You are going to start some SHIT over who's the BEST!!! GE Engine's or EMD Engine's and Everyone in the world knows that EMD ENGINE'S are Thee BEST Looking Running Sounds with Thee BEST MOTORS ever put into Engine's. Really Sorry Facts are Facts. Well I'm getting Off before I start saying some Dumb Shit about people. So goodnight everyone and remember this Three Letter's. EMD!!! Engine's are Thee BEST Engine's Build Ever in Thee world!!!!!!!
![[GL][T-330] EMD vs GE: SD70ACe vs ES44AC (Complete Video)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SAs4vz2rvQ0/mqdefault.jpg)
Having spent over two decades now working for UP (send help) and having operated everything from ex SP SD9's all the way up to Tier-4 compliant units, the answer as to which is best is complicated. For road units, GE is better in every way. Better riding, better power, better dynamics, better cabs, better electrics, quieter and more comfortable to be in, better in every way; period. EMD is only a factor in the road unit game simply due to their units generally costing less; albeit for a reason.
On the opposite end of the spectrum when talking about road switching operations, EMD's are better. Even road switching with 6-axle units is still in EMD's favor. They load faster, they (usually) are easier to see out of in reverse moves, and they simply allow us to do our work more efficiently. That said, they are rougher riding and louder which does have an effect on you by the end of your shift. Admittedly though, it's still better than dealing with GEVO's in similar assignments as they take forever to load, and it feels reminiscent of the U-Boat days where the throttle and the speed seem to be out of sync from one another. So in switching moves you're constantly fighting to get the unit to maintain a constant speed due to it either taking forever to load, or loading too much for what you're doing. On road freights those problems are a moot point.
So whose best? It depends on the circumstances. Though for all the praise I give GE's for road units, their C4's leave a lot to be desired for three primary reasons. At least within the limited time I've spent dealing with them. The first being they are rougher riding than you would expect at slower speeds. With weight off the center axle it takes some of the shock absorption out of the trucks suspension. It's not intolerable but is annoying. The second flaw being they simply don't pull like they should. GE desperately wants to dupe you into believing that software can make up for a lack of physical traction motors but it just can't. It's simple physics. It's a great platform neutered by bean counters.
The third reason being the most obvious with them having an absolute relentless propensity for wheel slip. Under power on dry rails you still will deal with wheel slip. If you have wet rails, good luck. Even in dynamic braking the sanders are still fighting a loosing battle trying to get the units to grip. With light weight traffic (pre-PSR) they kind of made sense. With PSR being the rule rather than the exception, I'm not the only on taking bets that the C4's and the C44-9W rebuilds into A1A trucked AC44C4M's will have 6 motor trucks when they get rebuilt. Unless GE pulls one hell of a metaphorical rabbit out of their hat to get the traction issues under control. Especially when it all boils down to 6-motor units simply pull more which translates into fewer units needed to be able to do the same or more work. Which to me at least, is a no brainer in a efficiency obsessed industry. The irony is I have friends on BNSF who share the same sentiments as I.
But then again, we aren't paid to think, so what do we know?...
My thanks on such a thorough first hand perspective and my compliments on your service to the industry.
Even as a basic railfan, the C4 makes no sense. “Wow, we save money one 2 less traction motor!” What about the maintenance of the lifting system? And to replace flat-spotted wheels?
Henry, I just have one question. What do you mean by "taking forever to load"?
@@AutismTakesOn the power. Think if you mashed on the pedal in your car and it took a few seconds for the engine to rev up and start applying power to your wheels. It would take forever to load and that's what it means. 🙂🙋♂️
@@ut000bs Oh... Thank you... Yeah, I imagine that'd be a huge problem. Kind of ironic for GE, though, if you ask me, considering that they built many electric locomotives.
You know something crazy, with out these videos I dont think I would know most of this stuff about trains and locomotive. And i love the fact how you put a lot of information in these videos. I really do enjoy your and I hope you keep making more. Thx for the entertainment a learning opportunitys.
Just to let you I sat there and watched all of your videos doing quarantine that how much I enjoyed them.
Thanks McNeal.
It's a great pleasure to find ALCo locomotives still doing their hard work today... ALCo taught GE how to build diesel locomotives...
History tells a different story. It was a true partnership for quite some time. In the earliest days, it was an Alco carbody, with GE mechanicals (straight electrics), or Alco/GE/IR in the case of the first diesel-electrics.
Later, Alco bought McIntosh & Seymour designs, and created their own diesels with the 531, 244 and 251 series. They used GE electrical components, right up through the very end in the early 1980's. By that time, it was Bombardier building MLW units with 251 diesels (the design of which was owned by GE since 1977). GE also purchased the carbody designs from Bombardier in 1984, and if you look at something like a C36-7, or a C32-8, the the design influence is fairly obvious.
Today, Fairbanks Morse owns the 251, building and servicing them out of Beloit, WI.
GE continues to build and service the 7FDL.
GE bought Cooper Bessemer designs, and created the 7FDL series.
when they came out with positive train control.That was well thought out. Thank you AC for another fine presentation
That conductor was awesome haha
Rebuilding seems to be a the new thing for railroads. It keeps good units running without having to meet tier 4 regulations. My vote will always be for anything EMD though, they just sound so good. All the best A.C.!
Not a new thing. Railroads have been rebuilding units for decades...
I agree!
That first clip I was there for that! I was standing right next to you!
Haha Nice! I remember!
Finally another drop by the legend AC!! Although I do love the old dash9's , I gotta go with the SD70'S.
The Details and Comments on this Channel are Off the Charts, Solid. Great hearing from Engineer.
As locomotive mechanic and someone who has rebuilt a few of the SD70ACC’s, I have to go with EMD.
Thanks for your feedback from the inside, it's much appreciated.
@@Trains21I'm an electrician for NS and they are a nightmare to work on and the worst designed engine on our fleet. They are constantly in our shop for failures and we have replaced several main generators ever since we've got them. Pure garbage. GEs are the best designed locomotive electrically and they are put together better. EMDs seem to have cheaper parts and the cabs on GEs are more comfortable.
@@propellerblades17 is it a nightmare on work on older units?
@@-watermelonking Yes but I will admit that EMDs have stronger dynamic braking. It normally would take two GEs in power to pull one EMD in Dynamic Braking.
EMD locomotives can last forever. A good example is SD40-2 locomotives, they are 50 years old and still going stronger to this day.
same with the C30-7....every SCL, UP, BNSF, and CSX C30-7 is still running in BRASIL!!!! AMERICA LATIANA LOGISTICA, RUMO, AND MRS....the C30-7 is the best competive for the locomotive you mentioned...but under Obamas emissions...they are now in SA.....ferrovias oriental has C30s as well as peru....as a SA driver the C30-7 is jumpy but out does any EMD!
That conductor at the beginning is awesome
That conductor had me rolling at the beginning! GE vs EMD though, thats a tough nut for me to crack...
Yeah, he was great!
I'm a EMD man at heart
Same here
SD40-2. Sorry brother, but it's true, and we know it! Lol!
@@Trains21 you know it! Plus, the C636 in my book.
Sorry bro, it's ES44AC from Tier-2, Tier-3a/Tier-3b to Evolution Technology ET44AC Tier-4!
All versions from DC, AC, AH, C4. !
Outnumbered and Outclassed the SD40, SD45 SD40-2 SD45-2 SD40T-2 SD45T-2 combined!
Modern stuff cannot touch the 40-2. They get rebuilt, they run. GE's get rebuilt. Back in the shop. They have no resale value. Shortlines buy up the 40-2's and they still keep them going.
Nah, the U50C was the most reliable loco ever built. Lol!
@@matthewarentzen7465 Put just two SD40-2s on a loaded coal train and let me know how that goes. Sorry but the GEVOs have taken the railroad industry completely.
Great video AC! Good to see experienced people in the comments sharing information too!
Thank you. Indeed it is.
still a fan of EMD mainly because of the Clevland diesel and because thats almost all our railroad uses
I always say GE is for the road EMD is for everything else. The gevos are above and beyond the best locomotives I’ve ever ran and in my opinion ever made(performance wise I don’t care what they look like or sound like)
Looks wise, like the back half of EMD'S and the front half of GE's.
Awesome information AC! Thanks for the great information. Cheers, Danny
Glad it was helpful!
I think both are awesome! GE isn't doing GE so much anymore, nor is GM doing EMD much anymore, but the heritage for each is substantial. I don't hold an engineer card, so my opinion is just that - an opinion. I think the EMD's are more reliable and easier for me to spot which model. I think the GE traction motors are better in use. My true favorite (showing my age) is an ALCO, as I grew up near an assembly plant :)
ELECTRIC MOTIVE DIVISION ALWAY’s !!!!!!
Go EMD yah
Enjoyed the video! We get alot of NS run through power here on the Thayer Subdivision (FYI the line is actually owned and operated by BNSF) including NS 1825 featured in your video. Heard lots of, let's just say interesting, stories about these NS motors from BNSF crews, but they're still cool units nonetheless! Incidentally the C4s are extremely unpopular here, but I wouldn't hold my breath that BNSF turns them into 6 motor locomotives anytime soon bc of the extra cost to have the two extra traction motors installed and the fact they've ordered new ET44C4s just recently.
As an onlooker, I don't really care; the railroads will make up their own minds and purchase those that suit their need. All I want to know is which are which, to me they all pretty much look a like.
It all comes down to one word ... efficiency, the cost of moving a load from point A to point B.
I do think units 4000 to 4004 are awesome and needed on the rails, I absolutely love 1800 & 1801. I will see them hopefully before I die.
Great video! I like how you put lots of effort into your videos!
Thanks Diamond Master!
@@Trains21 no problem! Honestly, I'm indifferent to any builder. A train is a train in my eyes. I get that the perspective changes when you're the one in the cab though
I would love to hear what the train crews say. They know these engines best.
Indeed they do. Keep checking in and I'm sure they'll be opening up in the comments.
I prefer GE.
I prefer the sd70acc
Each locomotive has its strength and weakness. They are whatever that railroad wants. As long as railroads exist, we will see many rebuilds. I look forward to whatever the future brings us. Thank you for another fantastic video. I often share these with crews who I know, and they love your videos. Often saying you know more than even they do. Haha!
LOL! Thanks Jessica!
@@Trains21 Of course. At some point, I need to email you about something I learned from a now retired Conrail conductor.
Nice video buddy I love everything you post ns is. Awesome it’s so awesome soft my dude
As someone who repairs and maintains locomotives for a living, I'll pick a GE over a EMD any day of the week. Without going into specifics, when working on GE locomotives you get the impression the engineers who actually designed the locomotive took into consideration the folks who have to service and maintain the locomotive. Whereas it seems the engineers at EMD must have a contest to see how many nooks and crannies they can fill with hard to reach and service equipment. Even the AC44C6M or as I like to call it, "The Dash 9 that thinks it's an EVO" is a better though out design than the SD70ACC. Not sure what EMD was thinking with the SD70ACC, but even the computer modules are in a somewhat hard to reach location. I understand because of government regulations, the rebuilding cost has a set upper limit thus requiring the reuse of major component on the locomotive, otherwise the locomotive would have to be upgraded to the next Tier emission level. That being said, I believe each builder did the best they could within the monetary restraints they had, but for me GE is still the better product.
Thank you for your input. It's very informative.
Hope all is good AC!!
Very busy Tony, thanks for asking and stopping by!
Excellent video AC. Thanks to Henry I have the best answer that I've heard.
Indeed. Thank you for watching Hans. I have to get over to your channel and see what's new over there.
As a former diesel machinist I found EMD's much easier to work on.
I have a question? I noticed that the back of the engine in some of the depths that were shown as an overflap extended out from the back and others are straight back with no overflap. Is this a difference in models or is this a difference in engine or is this something that's new to the engines.?
In my area the ones with the overflap are seen a lot.
It’s the type of engines it is. Most of the big guys have them. It’s just part of the radiator. I’m not sure exactly why some don’t but CSX doesn’t have many right now. CN and UP have a lot and CSX and NS don’t. The ones that don’t have the flaps are older for CSX but NS has newer engines that don’t have the flaps 🤷♂️😅I hope that wasn’t too confusing
@@TrainsForever I'm a locomotive electrician for NS and the newer engines that don't have the flared radiator shutters are the SD70 ACC units which are numbered 1800 series. They were rebuilt from the older DC EMD SD70s which are numbered 2500 series. GE did the same thing with the 4000 series which are AC units rebuilt from the DC dash 9s. If you notice the older dash 9s don't have the extended radiator section like the EVOs. That's because the EVOs have 2 Air to Air fans plus a large radiator fan.
Alco
@@Trains21 LoL
ALCo go BRUKUKUKUKUKUKUKUKUKUKUUKUKUKUK
@@UnionCountyPhotography Baldwin mack whitcomb and plymouth
Agree…..👍
what makes me wonder though, is how much Alco is there in GE designs?
When I went to the Juniata shops, literally every loco waiting to be repaired was GE.
EMD is more reliable.
Indeed
Might have something to do with the ratio of locomotives sold. Isn't it something like 3 to 1 GE to EMD? That would certainly be evident in the number waiting to be serviced.
GE's are still superior, plus theres way more GE"s than EMD'S, of course you're mainly going to see GE
yeah but, isn't ns an 'almost all' GE railroad now?
@@franks471 they have plenty of EMD's wdym
Henry stole the show on this one for sure but I'd like to throw my two cents in the hat if I might.
It's patents that killed EMD and still killing them. Tier 1 2 3 and 4 are lawyer moves through lobbying on the congress level getting laws passed that will favor the GE to kill EMD's two-stroke. It's really not hard to see this if you've been following the big diesels from the SD40-2 days. There's EMD Locomotives still working their duties that were built in the 50's like Henry operated. The EMD 2-stroke 567-645-710 engines are some of the most reliable Locomotive engines ever built. Lawyers Lawyers and more Lawyers is the problem I see here. President Trump even stated that our EPA laws were way over board and needed their laws overhauled. Like I said, Lawyers Lawyers and more lawyers is exactly 💯 of what we need right lol lol 😆
We share similar views. Thanks for saying what i was thinking!
@@Trains21
Love you Chanel man. I'm an old alco guy but you got to love the whine of a SD9 knotching up and back down while he's switching cars. Hell I even like listening to SD40-2's & SD45's switching cars. I like'm all even the Fairbanks Morse opposed piston engine two-stroke, and we can't forget the big burly 625rpm straight 6 & 8 de Laverne Baldwin engines. I'm thinking that motor design needs a healthy look over again by Engineers for today's locomotives. Can't beat a big straight 8 for torque and it's got a real reliable low rpm for engine longevity. I really like the SD70ACC and I hope it gets a chance . . . BRIAN
I'd like to add beside Lawyers...Lobbyists also. These are the 'Green People', 'Environmentalists' & Climate Change' lobbies that don't know what they're talking about but will not so much as persuade Lawmakers as intimidate them. It's easy w/ the Democrats, the majority are braindead schlepps for the radical side. The Republicans should put up more of a fight but once they're facing an election opposition they cave for the most part. I fully agree w/ President Trump(we don't have a President currently, just a lap dog), there is unnecessary emission regulation that is doing more harm then good.
@@carmiethompson2676
Another thing I might add that I read some years back that when these tier engines reached a 10 year using rate, the locomotive was no longer within the guidelines of using according to the EPA I believe, not sure who's law that was but I do remember reading. Know I don't know if that law has been removed or not because I'm thinking there still it seems using these older tier locomotives. Like I said I'm not sure. But what a messed up law to begin with but I do remember reading it. Lol
@@brian5606 Interesting. The entire locomotive can be rebuilt but I've see the RR's put a limit of 10-15 years. That could be relating to the electronics. There is also newer electrical tech. that would require the entire loco to be re-manufactured so you might as well buy a brand new one w/ a warranty. But basing a purchase on more climate friendly 'features' is ridiculous. What North, Central & South American RR's contribute to a negative environment is infinitesimal. Trucking is the same way. For Shipping, maybe an argument can be made but I'd start there as well as for Airliners.
Does the ACC have 6 inverters like GE, or 1 per truck like the MACs?
I've read that many of the MACs are getting converted to 6 inverters for reliability.
@@kittty2005 Good. That should help them hold the rail better when slipping happens
I'm an electrician for NS and they have one per truck also. And they suck to work on. They are the worst designed lcocomtive on our fleet and a nightmare. They're constantly in and out the shop for failures. We have replaced several main generators ever since we've got them.
Cool video! I choose the GE’s because I’ve heard their newer locomotives were built better than EMD’s. Have you heard of any engineers opinion on BNSF’s (or FEC’s) ES44C4?
BNSF 's goal was to gradually switch it's fleet to AC traction strictly.
ES44C4 & ET44C4 were introduced as AC traction locomotives equal as C44-9W and ES44DC 's performance. Slow elimination of 44DC units with 44AC and 4 powered axles as A-1-A---A-1-A with middle axle capable lifting and lowering according to necessary tractive effort controlled by computer systems, thus increasing or later decreasing adhesion needed for pulling the train. Basically the same thing as previous 6 axle DC power, new locomotive model use AC traction and only 4 powered axles, cheaper to maintain having equivalent pulling power
@@hadesdescent6664 How are they on the road vs the DCs? I get that they’re trying to save money on maintenance, but trains are getting heavier and wouldn’t the missing axles mean less pulling power?
@@Jeragon186 since BNSF have large amount of all GE types of locomotives, >1797 built C44-9W's, 721 ES44DC, 715 ES44AC, SD70ACe units also, they combine types, sometime it's all C4's, quite frequent is ES44DC/C44-9W's and C4 combinations and 70ACes, that's it...
EMD, classic, good all im going to say lol
That NS 4045 cab is really odd looking.
Why?
For me, it looks pretty standard.
I’m just not sure why 4045 gets the spotlight while the SD70ACC is being discussed.
Primer cab
Taylor Yard???
@@Trains21 nice! I was thinking about going there but I don’t know how the public access is
Whatever happened to the red nose unit NS did?
#8920. It was sold to Knoxville Locomotive Works I think.
8520. Yep it was sold to Knoxville Locomotive works. NS hated it
@@Trains21 I've lived in Knoxville my whole life and went to find it but they must have it hidden. I think that loco was slick looking.
@@Rob-tr1st Me too. I never got to see it though.
Trains 21 where can I find the original video so I can hear the sound?
EMD
When it comes to new locomotives I'd love to see EMD be competitive again. But tier 4 seems to be killing them.
It's patents that killed EMD and still killing them. Tier 1 2 3 and 4 are lawyer moves through lobbying on the congress level getting laws passed that will favor the GE. It's really not hard to see this if you've been following the big diesels from the SD40-2 days. There's EMD Locomotives still working their duties that were built in the 50's. The EMD 2-stroke 567-645-710 engines are some of the most reliable Locomotive engines ever built. Lawyers Lawyers and more Lawyers is the problem I see here. President Trump even stated that our EPA laws were way over board and needed their laws overhauled. Like I said, Lawyers Lawyers and more lawyers is exactly 💯 of what we need right lol lol
@@brian5606 Agreed, I think the EPA needs to be dissolved or reduced yesterday.
Tier 4 is killing both companies. The tier 4 GEVOs are unreliable as all get out, and a pain to work on. But they're not near as bad as that PITA EMD 4 stroke trotline weight.
@@ralfie8801
Your right, but the reliable two-stroke 710 is what I was referring to as getting the $#it end of the stick as far as getting shelved as part of this tier 4 BS. I'm still thinking the laws are way out of control "To Stringent" and Trump was right, the EPA laws are way out of control and need overhauled.
@@brian5606 yea, never saw the appeal of the EPA Tier Laws, not even half of the North American market is Tier 4 Compliant and nothing bad has happened even when operating the old GP7s and SD9s....... well, not just yet. Hell the SD40-2 is still operating fine and well albeit middle aged, something GE still has been rough around and sure some dash 7s still roam around, but only very few. My friend’s dad works at CN, he always had a place in his heart for the SD40s, SD70/75Is, GEVO’s, and Dash 9s, everything else sucked ass, he hated the Tier 4 GEVOs too.
Ooh, a Scranton area railfan
Yessir.
Their both fricken good locomotives
EMD.
EMD RULES
i love em both, but i have only seen one SD70ACC, and TONS of AC44C6Ms
I prefer EMD'S. GE's catch on fire too much
@@Trains21 One thing a GE might be good for. Using at a barbecue. I heard GE's make good flame broiled steaks. LOL
I just don’t understand why GE can’t seem to fix this problem, I just saw a CSX ET44AH burned up on the sides the other day, a Tier 4 newer locomotive already having issues. Idk you’d think they’d have this bug worked out by now. I’ve never seen an EMD burned up on the sides from a bad turbo
I suppose we will have to wait for the cooling system upgrades and the horsepower increase back to 4500, to see how they do side by side. Probably reliability will play a big part on how the guys like GE or EMD. Just my guess.
Nice to hear from you Don.
great video
Not anti America by any means but could we see 6 motor US specs imports one day?
Sd45m: sits in corner quietly.
Emd: "you're just an sd50 with some pizzazz.
Good review. In terms of rebuilds, I'd go with the CP Rail SD70ACu because of its looks and for being converted from SD90MACs.
Of course, my all time favorite "rebuild" is none other than PRR 4663: the streamlined Doodlebug/motor car.
EMDs will outlast any GE. Hell even ALCO has outlasted most of the old school GEs. GEs are just hard working expendable locomotives that you throw away once you’re done with. EMDs you can opt to upgrade
GE makes better locomotives, EMD’s make better variety and definitely has the better engine noise
I think EMD, especially old school (think pre SD50) are superior.
EMD were ok through the early 70Macs. GE's best unit is the AC44. If you have 2 AC44's in the lead, you're good to go. EMD screwed up by using the 80Mac frame under the 90Mac and later 70Macs. Lousy units. Give me a GP40 for any switching or wayfreight, or a couple of big AC44's on a road train, and scrap the rest.
I agree, GE pretty much always defeats EMD in mainline locomotives.
How does the Dash 9 compare to the AC44...... some people call it a 'Trash 9'.....?
@@locomotive536 the Dash 9 is fairly similar to the AC44, except it uses traditional DC traction motors, so - from an operating perspective - while they are a very good unit, they still have the same traction limits that any other DC-drive unit does. I've never heard a fellow rail call them that name, usually we call them "toasters". The Dash 9 is a good, solid unit.
The toaster moniker is carried over from the Dash 7 days when the C 36-7 was the toaster king. You couldn't keep a set of grids in one of those, they constantly were burning up.
@@ralfie8801 the C30 were good units, I only ran a C36 once. I remember that I couldn't get it to load. That was very common later, when we got an order of new SD90's. They would flake out just when you really needed the power. I also got to run a pair of new AC60's, which were quite something.
Their both good
US diesel locomotives are awesome ❤️
As an American, I agree . They are beautiful machines 😉
😂 lmfao
Once again 🎩🎩 Off to ya great stuff ,The engineers I’ve talk to say GE has the better ride and Comfort and Thanks to them we get our STUFF!🚂🚂
Engineer David deamond
I'll settle this argument. Baldwin made the best locomotives, lol.
No, Fairbanks Morse were the best locomotives!
EMD makes a better loco, but I think GE's are better candidates for rebuilds.
From what I've heard, both units ride like a 3 legged Bronco, that is to say, pretty bad
Really? Do you know why?
@@Jeragon186 rebuilt, those units weren't meant for the cabs NS put on them
EMD IS THE BEST EVER !!!!!
the best power that came from Lima Baldwin and ALCO in that exact order!!! diesel is only good for switchers and yard slugs!!
ALCO S HAD NICER LOOKING ENGINES THE ROUNDED CABS LOOKED BETTER THESE ENGINES LOOK LIKE THE DRAWING IN MY CRUMMY GRADE 3 READER ALSO BECAUSE GE DID A DEAL WITH ALCO THEY COPIED A LOT OF THERE ENGINE PLANS
EMD's are garbage. Even the fast loading argument is dumb. It's not 1989 anymore, GE's load just fine. The older Dash 8's/9's were slow, but a C45AC isn't. Especially on grade. C45's can pull anything under any conditions. But foamers beg to differ. Just because somebody's grandpa said EMD's were great back in 1961 doesn't mean that's still the case. It isn't. Talk to any railroader who runs something other than a commuter train. They will tell you the truth.
Ik for a fact that since CAT take over EMD it went down hill quick, also the GEs are not good too.. They are cheap same as EMD now and the SD70ACE rides like shit and not quiet. Only newer EMD was good was the 1995 was the SD75I. The crews loves the ride and it was a quiet ride. Also it doesn't help that the newer locomotives are pretty much run of a Computer.. let me tell you something with a computer will make it run like shit and stupid won't last long. I think we should go to the old school way because it's a lot better then the newest stuff. Sorry I can't imagine the newer GE and EMD or whatever company crap would last 10 years or more tbh 😂 I have talked to someone would works for the railroad and they love the 50 to years old EMD locomotives haven't have issues really tbh, the GEs they had the WORSE luck with them (They don't have junks anymore) The older GE are shit, they are not a good ride and not a quiet ride. Idk about the newer ones but I can give two shits about the new locomotives.. they are completely garbage tbh and will be when they can't fix something because of that stupid computer in it.. yes older locomotives did have some computer in it but the newer ones has a lot in it. Fucking sensors up the ass if one fails the whole thing won't run properly. I seen it with cars, semi trucks I can imagine with the newer locomotives. That's why old stuff is better. Also better made.
Ever since the GMDD plant in London, Ontario was shut down by Caterpillar, EMD power has gone downhill. Caterpillar moved production to a new plant in Muncie, IN after the London plant was shut down. So, Caterpillar has been essentially been building new EMD power for well more than a decade now. It’s hard to tell honestly which is the best builder now. GE did something similar & shut down their locomotive plant in Erie, PA, in favor of a new plant in Fort Worth, TX about 5 or so years ago. GE also sold off their transportation arm to Wabtec. So, Wabtec is building GE power now.
MichLo3 The main problem with GEs are the turbos. GE turbos are shit. If GM or Ford or someone like that made the turbos FOR GE LOCOMOTIVES, chances are they would be running alot better. Not sure about the load time thing, all I know is that GEs still don't load as quick as EMDs. Personaly I like the ACCs and the older Geeps, we have a Geep where I volunteer and it rides very nice, but if the GEVOs had a quicker load time ( it can be slow from a start but should kick in as soon as you move the throttle) and had different turbos, they wouldn't get as much hate
After doing shifting at the diesel house for several years, I’d take a GE over an EMD any day.
bring back steam
Something tells me that it'd be pretty hard to make a tier 4 compliant steam locomotive
@@Highclearmedia Actually, I don't think so. Make a simple LNG fired boiler, with a tender like the Florida East Coast railway uses. LNG burns very cleanly. Then use the steam for a traditional steam engine. It doesn't produce any soot :)
It also won't be very efficient, nor will it have much historical value. But hey, you got a Tier 4 steam locomotive.
This isn’t very practical. You gotta remember the railroads are businesses, not museums
Do you even like trains anymore?
You know that You are going to start some SHIT over who's the BEST!!! GE Engine's or EMD Engine's and Everyone in the world knows that EMD ENGINE'S are Thee BEST Looking Running Sounds with Thee BEST MOTORS ever put into Engine's. Really Sorry Facts are Facts. Well I'm getting Off before I start saying some Dumb Shit about people. So goodnight everyone and remember this Three Letter's. EMD!!! Engine's are Thee BEST Engine's Build Ever in Thee world!!!!!!!
First
Second
@@Trains21 Eighth
Fourth
1,254th
GE
I like GE better, no debate.