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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Nothing in the railfan community triggers debates, or strong feelings, as to who makes the better locomotive-GE or EMD. The answer isn't always clear, cut and dry, and a lot depends on what factors are taken into consideration. In the first round of this discussion, we'll compare the mechanical specs of two competing models. The AC4400CW from GE and the SD70MAC from EMD.
C H E C K O U T T H E S E R E L A T E D V I D E O S:
► [T-167] Locomotives of Today's Class 1s: Norfolk Southern
• [GL][T-167] Locomotive...
► [T-176] ENDEARING EMDs: The Indelible SD45 Locomotive
• [GL][T-176] ENDEARING ...
► [T-190] Canada's Kooky Locomotives: Comfort Cabs, Draper Tapers
• [GL][T-190] Canada's K...
► [T-146] ENDEARING EMDs: The Rise and Fall of the SD50s & SD60s
• [GL][T-146] ENDEARING ...
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![[GL][T-330] EMD vs GE: SD70ACe vs ES44AC (Complete Video)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SAs4vz2rvQ0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[GL][T-330] EMD vs GE: SD70ACe vs ES44AC (Complete Video)](/img/tr.png)
![[GL][T-255] EMD vs GE: SD70ACC vs AC44C6M - The Battle of the Rebuilds | Trains 21](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/knEHNC76bv0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[GL][T-339] The Greatest Diesel Locomotive in History.. EMD SD40-2 50TH ANNIVERSARY (Full Series)](/img/n.gif)
C H E C K O U T T H E S E R E L A T E D V I D E O S:
► [T-167] Locomotives of Today's Class 1s: Norfolk Southern
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nVIK...
► [T-176] ENDEARING EMDs: The Indelible SD45 Locomotive
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuIVk...
► [T-190] Canada's Kooky Locomotives: Comfort Cabs, Draper Tapers
www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4Zm3...
► [T-146] ENDEARING EMDs: The Rise and Fall of the SD50s & SD60s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAnUE...
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► TRAINS 21: trains21.org
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Fantastic cool video
Yeah
I used to work for EMD. I worked on the first generation 70 MACs. The one inverter per truck offered initial cost savings, but we had issues with wheel turning. The wheel diameters had to be within close tolerances so we had to remove the trucks and turn wheels to match diameters and profiles, which added to loco downtime during maintenance. The two strokers were running up against emissions issues, so four stoke was the way out. However, EMD modified the cylinder liners and improved emissions of their two strokers. Initially EMD had better AC reliability than GE, but GE poured resources into improving their reliability.
I respected EMD, but I was impressed with GE's market savvy, and their ability to correct AC reliability issues. We EMD techs joked that if we had GE traction motors, and EMD radial trucks we could rule the world. I notice that EMD dropped Siemens and are now using Mitsubishi inverter tech technology. EMD and Siemens had a "guarded" relationship about their AC inverter tech, but it was manageable. GE had their own inhouse inverter technology and I wonder if this gave them an advantage at the maintenance level. I think your video is a fair treatment of AC technology from two differing manufacturer's side of things. Good video. Thanks.
Thank you Bill for sharing your timeless knowledge and experiences with all of us on this channel.
@Randall Slaughter I dont know. I'm not up on Caterpillar and their marketing. The EMD two strokers, I thought, were a thing of the past, and their four stroker was the future. Now I understand their two stroker is tier compliant. But I believe everything is four stroke now. Seems like the EMD engine design will be around for awhile. Hope they stay around, if anything, to keep GE honest :) When I worked at EMD they were hurting, and the BNSF MAC 70 orders kept them afloat., but now I see mostly GE units.
@@billtimmons7071
Modern EMD units are still around but are starting to meet their fate.There's alot of SD70MAC's from BNSF in deadline storage but certain amounts have been updated as SD70MACE's including the SD75M's as the SD75MAX's,even though it's nothing in comparison to how many GE units such as C44-9W's,ES44DC's,or ES44C4's are still out there,factory or rebuild.
Union Pacific is finally retiring their SD70M's and scrapping or putting them in storage while heavily getting their C44-9W's rebuilt and pulled out.
CSX recently rebuilt their SD70MAC's but they literally are just about the only modern EMD units actively on the roster while everything else is GE power besides their old EMD -3 rebuilds.
They sold their SD70ACE's to PRLX and also got rid of the SD70AH-T4's which now all of them have been leased to Ferromex for the time being.
Norfolk Southern however has some variety in their roster all involving rebuilds such as the EMD -3's,
SD60E's,SD70M-2's,and SD70ACU's but it's all handful amounts and secondhand units that they purchased dirt cheap and once again everything else is GE units.
Every now and then they sell or store units with PRLX just to require them later on and then repeat the cycle.
Pretty soon I expect the SD70ACE's to be phased out as well and at that point I believe all that really will be left of EMD is the GP40-2's & SD40-2's for the most part.Everything was perfect when the GP40-2's & SD40-2's were manufactured but afterwards EMD slowly started going downhill and faced problems here and there,espiecally when GE bought ALCO.
Once GE debuted microprocessors,
better fuel efficiency thanks to the four stroke 7FDL & 7HDL,incredible dynamic braking,came out with the comfortable and quiet wide cab,and improved AC traction that was just about enough to really put EMD down.One of the biggest issues with EMD was getting nailed by stricter EPA compliance due to their two stroke motors and heavy carbon footprint.The attempts with the 265H in the SD90MAC's were fragile and years later even though the Caterpillar 1010J became the successor to the 265H,
everything else about the SD70AH-T4's isn't even worth mentioning.
Thankfully EMD built exhaust manifold silencers for their locomotives in order to make them meet emissions standards.At best,the 710 series will last longer than the locomotives themselves.
Aside from the GP40-2's & SD40-2's,you can bet that the MP15DC's & MP15AC's will be around for awhile which have always been the perfect road switchers.
Outside the facts that the EMD 567,
645,and 710 motors are really reliable EMD has upholded the notoriety of having traction motors that load quicker if you want to move something and fast.
However their traction motors and electronics,regardless if it was Siemens or Mitsubishi,don't last as long or are as strong as what Wabtec/GE has.
Honestly at this point CAT/EMD should mainly focus on locomotive rebuilds or just stick with stationary and marine apparatus espiecally where they won't be pressured by serious EPA complaints.
It doesn't help at all that both Caterpillar and EMD were already facing emissions testing back then before becoming the parent company with short lived attempts at making all units four stroke.
I've worked on the railroad for a little over seven years now. And personally I feel EMD's are the better locomotives. Longer lasting. And easier to switch with. They load faster which gives you more fine control while placing cars. And like someone else said, there are a whole lot of old geeps, and sd40-2 engines still out there working hard the way they were when built in the 70s.
Are you working remote jobs?
Although I agree that most EMD units are longer lasting,GE is still better on certain terms and there's reasons why they are practically everywhere and control the market.
EMD's traction motors load quicker but GE's traction motors are much more reliable,have more traction effort,and are better when you have to move a consist with serious tonnage,espiecally on slippery surfaces or a grade.
Without a doubt the EMD 567,645,and 710 series will last for decades while everything else won't,but they aren't exactly EPA compliant and two stroke literally consumes more fuel opposed to four stroke which also can make more power easily on GE units.The GE 7FDL & 7HDL series aren't the best on reliability compared to EMD,but increased fuel efficiency and less costs on mainteance is what the railroads are looking for.
When it comes to heavy or extreme tonnage,all you want is GE units,
espiecally when they are very incredible when it comes down to dynamic braking.
If you want to get a consist moving,
maybe not as weighted,then EMD units will do just fine thanks to their quick loading traction motors,regardless if it's DC or AC at that,espiecally if it involves switching or local work.
Once GE bought ALCO,EMD was already about to face some downfall results.
As mentioned,GE's traction motors have always shown higher outputs of tractive effort compared to EMD.Also,when GE began developing microprocessors and then the safety cabs first that was more losses on EMD's part.
When AC traction was debuted it actually was great at first by EMD but then GE did their own thing and came out with something more,once again proving that they were better.
Going back to the EPA and the whole ordeal about two stroke versus four stroke,EMD failed horribly when they attempted to go modern and bypass the pressure they were facing from the EPA.
The 265H's in the SD90MAC's were basically the reason why General Motors just sold them out,and Greenbriar Berkshire made things even worse.
After Caterpillar became the parent company to EMD & PRLX they did redevelop the 265H as the 1010J for the SD70AH-T4's,but the locomotives themselves ironically were failed and didn't make great market profits.Just about the only good from them is the redesigned motors from Caterpillar.
CAT/EMD did do a great job for a short time by going with Mitsubishi electronics instead of keeping what Siemens had.
To put it down in summary,EMD hasn't had it perfect ever since discontinuation of the GP40-2's & SD40-2's.Those might as well will become the last EMD units at some point to still see prolonged usage.
The MP15DC's & MP15AC's are perfect road switchers and will always remain just for that purpose.Some time in the future the only modern EMD units left might be the SD70ACE's until their years come around,then all else will be GE.
What doesn't help either is that both Caterpillar and EMD have been under pressure with EPA compliance because of modern emissions testing,their only profitable marketing is marine apparatus where most of these ridiculous standards don't take place.
Former CSX T&E employee here (although I've been gone for over 12 years). Having run both and heard the cases made, I have to say that for a random given trip, my favorite engine to run was a CSX GE CW44-9 DC (which wasn't a "true" dash 9 according to purists, and CSX nomenclature in model designations is slightly different than the manufacturerer's) in the #9000 series. The AC44's would keep pulling down to less than 1 mph, whereas a similar EMD would give up and stall much below 4 mph. The best dynamic brakes I ever used were on the GE AC6000s, they would just about bring a heavy train to a complete stop on a downgrade, simply awesome. Please note that CSX has since retired all of their AC 6000s after less than 20 years of service for the newest ones.
For throttle response, EMDs are the best. We joked that adding notches on an EMD was a demand for more power, and on a GE a request for power - the delay was that striking. For switching, give me a GP38 or 40 over anything GE. I know the SD50s were not considered very good, but they were outstanding for switching/spotting an automobile rack ramp, where you had to shove against a lot of air on the cars so you wouldn't run them off the end of the track.
I will agree with those who say that hands-down, the best U. S. locomotives ever were the EMD 40 series. The proof of that is how many are still in use on any kind of U. S. railroad, which is lots of them. Then look at the long-term fate of most GE locomotives, not very good, mostly scrapped short of 30 years old. Everybody rebuilds old EMDs, whereas hardly anybody rebuilds old GEs. Yes, you will find pockets of them on railroads that have decided their lower cost to buy used, and better fuel efficiency are worth taking a chance on mechanical reliability, but overall you will find far more 50 year old EMDs out there, period. Granted EMD badly fell down from the SD50s on, and especially the SD90s, which were a horrible failure (just look at how long they didn't last on UP), but if I were the owner of a short line or regional, I'd make sure my entire fleet was second-generation EMD 645 dash 2s or 3s.
Micro processor EMD 710 engine combo is hard to beat. I always loved EMD two strokers. So simple, so responsive. I agree that SD 50 was a lemon.
That was an awesome case you made for both Paul, and goes in line with a lot of what's been said in other comments (I've read them all!). We thank you for sharing your timeless knowledge and experience with us.
As far as locomotives go, being an engineer, we dont worry about a lot of those details. As far as performance, ALCO locos will pull the steel of the rail until they die. GE is good for lugging heavy trains. EMD are better on faster lighter trains. Do not get me wrong, An EMD will pull a good amount of tonnage. But say its snowing and wet going up a grade. A GE will get down and dirty better. Give me an EMD on a local freight or intermodal. EMD's are usually known to ride a little better on rougher track to. My favorite loco to haul tonnage, give me a 5 or 6 thousand ton train with a quartet of SD-40's and I will get that train anywhere. Just my opinion
I agree. But I’ll take a EMD with no trip optimizer!
Interesting insight. Thanks for sharing your knowledge 👍
Thank you for your input Sir. I always like getting first hand information from the people on the front lines.
@@Trains21 I started right after split date of Conrail, After Engineer school, we still had a very good mix of power where I worked. GP38's,40's, B23's , B36's, a lot of mix of SD 40's, hated the CN big barns, rode like a cynder block on steel. SD 50's were excellent when they worked right. Even had a hand me down SD45 and C30-7. Only thing I didnt like about the wide cabs was doing any kind of switching with them. Also ran FL-9s at a museum and a bunch of Budd cars. Had a chance to run a couple of old ALCO's thanks to a friend on some un named local railroads. I even had an old NYC central guy train me as an engineer. Tons and tons of invaluable knowledge there.
@@3171jmpoor Awesome. Feel free to chime whenever you like. Hopefully, you'll become a regular viewer to this channel if you're not already.
I started my RR career many years ago as a machinist apprentice working on old Baldwin road units and a few EMD GP18 and GP38 and a couple GE small yard switchers. The Baldwins were well worn out and a pain to work on as were the GE switchers but the EMD I thought was a jewel. Later I moved on to a large RR working also in locomotive mechanical. I liked very much the EMD over GE road units, easy to work on for the most part and quite simple. The GE was an updated old Baldwin in my book, larger parts, more complex and in certain ways harder to work on. I´ll take EMD any day over a GE to work mechanical. One example is GE has individual fuel pumps for each cylinder (16) and they are a bit more complex to ¨time¨ or adjust to run properly whereas EMD has a 3rd rocker arm in between the 2 rockers per cylinder head on the overhead cam that controls the adjustment of fuel pressure to each cylinder by how far the rocker pushes the injector tension down and is eaiser to adjust. Other ¨stuff¨ too. Follow all that? No matter, its my preference to work on EMD over GE.
If you have been at it for that long, did you work on ALCO locomotives? How did they compare reliability wise and easy of maintenance, if you did?
Thanks Bennie for your insight.. I've heard similar to what you said about the ease of maintenance of EMD as compared to GE.
In more retrospect GE actually based and copied what ALCO already had for some time.The 7FDL's were based on the 251's to begin with,at least the blocks and stroke.Although it's very true that EMD units are pure simplicity to be a mechanic for compared to GE units the performance on mainline usage is a completely different set of results.
GE units have higher tractive effort and more reliable traction motors,the only problem is that they don't load fast but EMD traction motors do,both DC & AC.
The 7FDL's & 7HDL's aren't very reliable but in these modern times of serious EPA regulations it makes them compliant and being four stroke is more fuel efficient.Regardless,the EMD 567,645,and 710 series in my opinion will outlast many things.There's a reason why they are still around for stationary usage and tugboats,not just all these leftover units.One major advantage that GE has over EMD is their dynamic braking which in many cases has almost been perfect and it was upgraded immensely when back in the day it was a common malfunction on the Universal Series and any of the -7's with overheating and melting grids.
In modern times EMD units are great for switching and moving freight quickly but serious tonnage and rough terrain is what GE units are preferred for.
I've always been an GM person(not because our railroad is entirely EMD)...when I see some of the train crews on Pan am they usually say how much they hate their dash 8 locomotives and would far rather run an gp40
Thanks for your input and for watching Atomic Man.
I too am a retired locomotive engineer for Conrail and NS. 1978-2012. Hands down, the EMD locomotives are the best there is. The only reason you see more GE's is the fact they are cheaper. The new GE's are a big improvement over the old junk they put out, but EMD's run rings around them every time.
SD-40-2's were the ultimate in power. Lash four together and they will do anything you ask of them. Sadly, maintenance programs were lacking and many of -2's fell apart.
Give me a SD40-2, any variant of them, any day of the week! Best looking, best working road locomotive ever built!
Agreed.
I'll give the advantage to EMD simply because they last longer as the GE'S tins to wear out just about the time their 15 year lease is up. A GE manager said they are design like that because there is more money in selling a new locomotive then rebuilding an old one. And finally EMD'S are easier to fix and cheaper to rebuild ----over n over again.
For looks I'll go with EMD. After that I have no strong feelings. Excellent video AC.
Perfectly understood. Thank you for watching Hans.
Nothing touches the SD40-2. Great video, very informative to old and new hobbyists!
Thanks Matthew.. It's much appreciated!
@@Trains21 you are welcome!
I think EMD is better. Despite having to be put up for sale, EMD has always built locomotives that withstood the test of time. Many EMD locomotives that were market failures, like the SDP40F, SD50, and SD90MAC, were able to be rebuilt and find a new life. EMD has also seen what railroads want and did everything in its power to give their customers what they want. EMD has also re-engined locomotives that were built by other companies that competed with them, such as ALCO, Baldwin, Fairbanks-Morse, and even Metropolitan Vickers!
While EMD's locomotives may not be as technologically advanced as their GE competitors, EMD mostly uses the best proven technology, rather than brand-new technology that hasn't been proven yet. EMD also allows for countless rebuild options, while GE sports only a few, with the Super 7 series, the AC44C6M, Dash 8.5-40CW and - Wow, that's all there is! And while GE is mainly an all-American manufacturer, EMD is no stranger to foreign companies, and even making agreements with competitors, like Bombardier Transportation.
EMD also isn't afraid to adapt to the demands of its customers. GE, on the other hand, leaves a LOT to be desired. When the U30C developed electrical problems, the operators were assured that its prime mover was highly reliable. Let me say that again: When the U30C developed electrical problems, the operators were assured that its prime mover was highly reliable. That's the equivalent of a doctor looking at a person who broke both legs and telling them that their arms still work. GE made no attempt whatsoever to fix the U30C's electrical issue. And GE also failed to turn the U30C into a passenger locomotive not once, but TWICE. The U30CG failed, being involved in a severe accident, and the P30CH also had reliability problems.
As proof of the longevity of EMD diesels, Metra has an EMD SW1 in service today which was built in December of 1938. That tiny diesel is now over 80 years old, and yet, is still in regular switching service!
So in conclusion, while GE may have beat EMD in technology and manufacturing capability, I don't see EMD leaving the locomotive business anytime soon. EMD's loyalty and dedication to its customers is something that we just don't see with most companies today. And even though EMD has had some hard times, I have no doubt that they'll rise back up every single time.
Very well spoken.
@@Trains21 Why thank you sir! Btw, you earned a subscriber!
I don't think the SD70ACe-T4 looks very cool
EMD slowly went under after the GP40-2's & SD40-2's were discontinued because almost every other unit that was manufactured afterwards always ended up with problems and another.
First it was the crankshafts on the SD45 series and then it was the entire prime motor with the GP50 & SD50 series just to list a few things.
With the mention of the SD90MAC's,that was the biggest failure ever from EMD and why General Motors sold them out.
The SD9043MAC's at that ended up with cracked frames which is why even as SD70ACU rebuilds they are getting scrapped.
Years later with Caterpillar becoming the parent company the SD70AH-T4's ironically became another failure being based on the same units before them.
The 567,645,and 710 series are some of the greatest motors but EPA emissions testing downright killed them.Everything has to be four stroke and fuel efficient for compliance,which is what Wabtec/GE has on their behalf.The reason why GE has been overthrowing EMD is because their traction motors make more tractive effort,there is better throttle response,and the traction motors actually last longer.The only problem is taking awhile to load compared to EMD traction motors which load faster,both DC & AC,but are weak in traction.Also,GE has greatly improved their dynamic braking when back then on their Universal Series and -7's they would melt grids and get hot.It's completely different today and ever since the EMD GP60's & SD60's there always has been complaints about dynamic braking.
The only benefits of an EMD unit is that the traction loads quicker and there won't be anything catching on fire.
GE has been taking over tremendously in modern times and changes are soon to come since Wabtec now owns the rights to their locomotive production.
Even though many EMD units will remnant somehow and somewhere their future of upholding business,aside from rebuilds,is basically dead.
I am a retired locomotive engineer (CNJ, CR, NS) (1973-2007) and there is no comparison. EMD all the way! Period!
Thanks Jerry!
Thank you for your service sir! I'm grateful that you kept our homes full🙏🏻
Absolutely brother! I’ve got 22 years as an engineer in class one service.
Long live the SD40-2 !
Hi Jerry! We need a sequel with you and Mike Bednar!
I like EMD because the 2 stroke and the made the SD9 witch is my favorite locomotive 🚂
I'll be very honest on this one, I like both GE and EMD from the predecessors to the Tier4's😎.
Me too
I’m a locomotive engineer for Norfolk southern and train enthusiast. I have to say having operating many models from both manufacturers I will say that it depends on the application. I will say that emd locomotives load up quicker than ge, especially fully relay logic models. Ge locomotives have a much more crew friendly cab. Also the emd uses a Detroit diesel 2 stoke which to me I love the sound of. For yard switching give me an emd. For heavy coal trains please give me a ge. The ge holds the rails a lot better as well.
Until it rains and you have wet rail
I've been in both EMD and GE Locomotives and there is a lot to love about both. The older EMDs do load faster that the GEs but the newest engines from Progress Rail EMD, the SD70ACe-T4 also what we call an EMD ST70AH at CSX loads at about the same speed at the GEs. Guess it's the fact that it's new 1010 Prime Mover is a 4 Stroke like the GE 7FDL-16 and GEVO-12 instead of two stroke like the older EMD 567, 645, and 710 series prime movers. They will damn sure pull though! Love the cabs on the new EMD and GE engines! Real spacious and ergonomic with comfortable seats and great AC!!
Thanks Angel!
Simply the best and informative RR channel going, using industry stats geared for the average railfan, like myself!
EMD lit the fuse for ac traction motors with the introduction of that game changing SD70 MAC, with Burlington Northern buying into it big time & proving it's worth in coal service. I remember them when new, passing through Iowa in that sharp cream and Grinstein green with red pinstripes; one of the best paint jobs ever and worthy of such a monumental new model. A big deal in the railfan experience are the sounds these beasts makes and in that, I think most people are going to go with that EMD sound over the GE 4 stroke, low revving engine. Can't wait to watch the comparison between the Tier 4 efforts from both locomotive builders!
As a kid, I couldn't find a train with an all GE consist and SD40-2's were everywhere. Now, overwhelmingly, I see GE power. That tells me who the railroads think has a better product.
Or they can't find parts for rebuilding that many units since 2 strokes are an EPA no no now.
@@kleetus92 What Michael said is completely correct. There is no parts shortage for EMD locomotives. For a lot of parts, there is a surplus. And most parts are unit exchange too.
As an engineer, GE is far more reliable than EMD in the traction category. The only advantage of an EMD is it loads faster. Still I would take a GE any day.
Personally,the diesel motors from EMD are much more reliable and don't often blow out turbochargers or have crankcase overpressure which GE has always been notorious for.Other than that,everything else is true.
GE is also more quiet and have better cabs.The wide cabs have held up well ever since the debut of the dash eight locomotives.
EMD's load quicker and are more ideal for local work and yard jobs. GE's are better out on the road. Pretty simple. My old man said there was nothing worse than having an old beat up GE (B23-7's mainly) on a local. Things were junk.
Running the same 103 mile branch line subdivsion, with the same loaded unit train every trip with no stops or meets. The EMD with its 2 stroke motor was 4hrs50mins, the GE with its 4 cycle was 5hr15mins. It took a lot longer to accerate off of permant slows with the GEs. Even starting with light engine(no cars) you could release the brake and put it in throttle 8, go down to the bathroon and take a piss come back and only have moved 10 feet. This made GEs horrible to switch with. They were also a nighmare to start a train on a hill with, dumping their load and taking forever to start reloading, I never heard of an engineer ever getting a knuckle with a GE. GEs however did have a much superior reliabilty on their traction motors. The early Dash 8 after two years the frames all sagged on them. EMDs hum when running GEs sound like tugboats
UP workers personally prefer GE's it depends on the unit and how the company takes care of it.
My buddy Dan is a Loco driver here in Thunder Bay. On the north shore of lake superior here, he can take a run at a hill with an EMD but not with a GE. Says, "i get out a book and read on a hill when i drive a GE" because no matter what, he can't get a run with the GE, it slows down and chugs away, pull out his book and read. Gets in an old SD and has fun driving it because he's got control of the power. Does not understand how CP rail thinks the GE has good fuel consumption.
@@iBackshift Yeah Idk up here in Iowa I was told that they prefer GE's but UP always tells them to shut the extra units off so they run slower. I guess it depends how they're treated I guess.
If it weren't for the EPA rapidly increasing emissions standards, EMD would be the winner for long term maintenance costs alone.
If it wasn't for the EPA the RRs wouldn't have all their emds in storage and not be reliant just on the sd70ace.
When I worked at a heavy repair and overhaul shop we had 2 SD40-2s come in on flat cars and their trucks were on two other flat cars these units had been wiped down a mountainside by an avalanche and just about everything on these units was destroyed or crushed, they were stripped down to bed frames in 1 month and both units were in revenue service within 1 calendar year, if these units had been GEs they would have been scrapped and maybe the SDs should have been scrapped as well because it took a lot of work to bring the SDs back, the thing was you could do it you could bring them back to life as long as the frame was intact even if it was bent it could be fixed.GEs have power and braking that are unmatched but if you overhaul a GE steerable truck and then a GM SD40 truck you know which unit is better, but as a mechanic the SD40-2 will always be the best freight locomotive ever built IMHO.
EMDs get rebuilt even if only the frame is left because railroads can continue to run dirty 2-stroke engines. Every part is available to build EMD 645 and 710 engines, so those will continue to run to infinity (or until new emissions regulations force railroads to electrify their lines).
I was a conductor on the NS, I preferred the EMD over the GE. The doors and walkways are wider on the EMD making it easier to stash grips and cooler in the cab. Also the steps are more forgiving when Climbing in the winter months. I'm sure an Engineer might have different thoughts based on operational conditions. I really loved the large porches on the SD-40-2s.
EMDs, because they dont blow there turbos every 5 minutes. And they last much longer. GEs dont last 25 -- 30 years in service (accept the P42DC) but the GP38-2s and SD40-2s built in the 70s are still in service, and are still reliable.
I've never had a GE blow a turbo. But yes, i know they are known for that haha. Also, about half our fleet are Dash 9s, and although being rapidly phased out in favor of ET44s, they absolutely do last 30+ years if they're properly maintained, as with any system
@@kensingtonchapp4819 hold up, are you with NS
@@ReadingAreaRailfan BNSF
@@ReadingAreaRailfan (there's NS in our name, but, no lol)
@@kensingtonchapp4819 who you with
The amount of research, information and editing that go into your videos is staggering!
Thank you Tony. I always look forward to hearing what you have to say!
My father worked for southern pacific from 1970 until he retired from up several years ago. I got to ride for almost 80 miles quite a few times the sound of the horn and the engines will always bring back so many memories. EMD
I love both honestly, I use to absolutely drool over the GE Ac4400cw's because of nostalgia but now they are tied with EMD due to me absolutely loving the Sd70ace design's.
Im retired from EMD @ LaGrange, Illinois. For many years our feed back from the major railroads was that ours were more reliable and much easier to work on then GE units.
you got that right
When did you start working there sir?
I was the Electrician for Amtrak's Northeast Corridor and I found this Video very professional!!!
I can only image the amount of research and time you put into this, you brought up so many great facts and points! I think both companies do great job making locomotives, and learning this extra bit of knowledge about the two head to head was super interesting!
A conductor's perspective. The EMD has a taller square door on the front. The conductor desk has a cup holder and a clip to hold papers. The ice box can be placed out of the way but easy for the conductor to access. Newer models have better sound insulation in the cab. Brakeman's seat is never cramed behind the conductor's. The suspended cabs rock to an annoying amount. The toilet isn't vented well.
Thanks for the input Sunhawk.
About 16 years ago, when I first learned about GE and EMD locomotives, I arbitrarily starting liking the former better. Most likely because they are built in the same state I live in, and by the same company that manufactured my washer and dryer.
There is never a Perfect Locomotive. This is similar to when siren enthusiasts debate on what’s the best siren to exist. Both companies have had locomotives that have either been a success or have been a failure from the start. My favorite locomotive is the Dash 9 locomotive due to me growing up around them and that they look cool. You make good points when it came to this topic. I believe it boils down to the requirements and needs of the railroad and the locomotive market. You can keep a locomotive running for years to come if the loco is maintained well and is updated with newer engines, radios, or electronics. Kinda like how a old siren from the 1950’s or 60’s can still be as effective like newer sirens if you keep up maintenance and upgrade it’s controls and radios over time.
Both designs are excellent. Sometimes emotional loyalties are tie breakers.
I love to railfan the GE Locomotives, they generally look sleeker
Agreed.
To me, it's all about reliability and maintainability. In that department, EMD has always had the advantage with their 2 stroke models.
@Railfan Maston Yes, unfortunately. Personally, I think 4 strokes are overly complicated, it makes disassembly and reassembly a bit more of a pain in the rear.
As of now, GE. They simply make better locomotives than EMD. Being an EMD over GE fan myself, I know it hurts and people will insult me, but the truth hurts, EMD has lost its place in the hearts of railroads, with GEVO’s probably reaching 7000 units in production, the reliability of those 5 variants in just the American market (ES44AC, ES44DC, ES44C4, ET44C4 and ET44AC) have outsold EMD’s flagship SD70 series, which took more than TEN variants to rival GE’s output, yet they most likely haven’t even reached 6000 units sold and I’m talking the entire market sales of the SD70 series as a whole vs just the American market sales of the GEVO’s. I have even been fascinated by the Tier 4 SD70ACE which gave me hopes, will this new cleaner locomotive finally rival the sales of the GEVO’s? Was this the locomotive to finally bring EMD back up to what it once was during the SD40 era? The answer: NOT EVEN CLOSE. Sales of this new variant in the North American market only yielded just over 100 units sold, probably not even close to a third of the tier 4 GEVO’s in the market right now. And this might be because of it’s high maintenance costs when compared to GE’s line of new locomotives. But also probably due to the flaws of the cab design which might be why some operators like BNSF prefer to use an SD70ACE as a trailing unit/DPU instead. GE all the way
What are the differences between GE and EMD cabs?
The trailing unit only status for the SD70ACe on BNSF only applies to the older non-iso cabs. Any of the newer isolated cabs can be run in lead on BNSF.
@@Dennis-vh8tz the emd cabs are rattling howling shit box of death cabs especialy the non iso cabs thats why crews hate them and like the ge locomotives instead they are very quiet even under full load i love EMD but there cabs just suck
As a fellow EMD fan, I can agree with this. As much as it hurts, GE is taking over. Many of EMD's recent models shake themselves to deathz starting with the SD50. Even the SD70ACe models haven't solved the vibration issues.
On the bright side, EMD's modular systems does make maintenance less of a headache. You can replace a power assembly on an EMD I four hours or less with basic hand tools. Their Dash 2 modular electronics were really onto something to. The problem is they tried to push the limits of howuch power their 2 stroke engines can output before they vibrate apart. That's why they tried the 4 stroke models with the 1010J and H block models. Those didn't cut it in terms of performance either.
@@PowerTrain611
EMD actually came out with the 265H because their 710's weren't meeting with modern emissions standards.It had nothing to do with the breaking point of horsepower.This was also before they developed exhaust manifold silencers to help them pass.Two stroke engines constantly run at higher RPM and have higher carbon footprints,that's why the EPA is crazy about.The breaking point of horsepower was the 645F's in the GP50's & SD50's which is obviously why they debuted the 710's to begin with.Apparently EMD didn't learn the first time either because the 20-645E3's in the SD45's,SD45T-2's,SD45-2's etc kept destroying crankshafts.During that period they were only focused on how much horsepower singular locomotives could handle.Years later,the major flaw about the 265H's for the SD90MAC's was the harmonic balancing which was poorly constructed and resulted in crankshafts,motor mounts,and frames being fractured.However when Caterpillar officially became EMD's parent company,the 1010J's in the SD70AH-T4's was based on the block of the H motors but are far more reliable and use different crankshafts.
Interesting enough,the 265H's were heavily rebuilt and have seen prolonged usage in Asia,Australia,China,and India.
The biggest flop of the SD70AH-T4's were the traction motors and electronic errors.
Despite EPA compliance,EMD widely still builds 645 & 710 motors across the world but it's all in various applications except locomotives and where emissions regulations aren't that serious.
EMD use to be when it was built at GM Diesel london Canada
Another argument could be made in which builders' locomotives get rebuilt and put back on the rails. I remember when the -8s were the newest, greatest thing to hit the rails, these were the units that brought market dominance to GE and I can remember the calls of 'EMD is finished'... yet 30 years on, just how many dash 8s are still around out of those that were built? Sure, there are some left and a few have been rebuilt. How many SD40 and SD40-2 locomotives, dating back to 1965, are still running today? I'd probably gather there are far more EMD 40s running around, percentage wise, than there are -8s running around. And, keep in mind that the 40s were winding down just as the dash 8s were winding up.
I feel like the only reason for this is because since EMD's SD/GP series in the 60s and 70s, no builder has been able to produce a road switcher that even compares in quality to the SD/GP series of that time. so, until a new road switcher comes out with the versatility of the SD40/GP40 and GP38, railroads will just keep rebuilding their preexisting locomotives.
You make good points. All of which I've made in past videos. Most of them are in the "Locomotives of Today's Railroads" playlist. Check em' out if you have time. And thanks for watching and chiming in.
@@alexandergrube6437 right now, both builders tier4 product is less reliable then their tier3 product, expect more capital rebuild programs from both builders as a work around buying a tier4 product, until its bugs are resolved.
One of the greatest benefits at the time of the GE -8's was microprocessors and the factors that they had higher outputs of tractive effort compared to the EMD GP60's & SD60's while having more reliable dynamic braking.That's the main issue with alot of modern EMD units being the dynamic braking.GE really updated their dynamic braking when back in the old days there was grids being melted on the -7's and even older Universal Series units.The benefits of most EMD units is that traction loads quickly and switching is great but high end tractive effort,better throttle response,and longer lasting traction motors is credits for newer GE units.
In perfect circumstance,EMD units are liked more because you won't have to worry about catching on fire.I will say though that most GE units do actually have comfort friendly cabs that don't shake and rattle badly.
Just like anything else,each and every has it's pros and cons.
At some point I believe that the GP40-2's,SD40-2's,and the addition of the MP15DC/AC road switchers will probably outlive most other units.
Never the less it's obvious that there still is many more EMD units opposed to GE and even ancient ALCO units out there.
i had a friend whom was a conductor said GE was good engines but loud, i love EMD hands down.
Ironic, as soon as I see the beginning section mentioning the AC44, i hear a freight train pass my house with an AC44 leading
My understanding is, EMD lost its stance on the market in 2014 when they failed to have a successor for the 710 engine, which did not meet Tier 4 regulations and could not be upgraded accordingly. Consequently, they could not sell the SD70ACe in the US anymore, and Canada was too small a market to survive. GE, on the contrary, successfully launched a Tier 4 version of the GEVO engine, efffectively getting a monopoly on new freight locomotives. In the beginning, some railroads traditionally embracing EMD, like NS, tried to avoid Tier 4 by modernizing their existing EMD roster (e.g. SD70ACU) or just purchased used locomotives. Since EMD had to design a Tier 4 engine from the scratch, they needed quite some time until the 1010 engine was ready for production. But when that happened, GE had full order books from all major US railroads, which had lost patience with EMD. As far I know only UP ordered about 100 SD70ACe-TE. The same story on passenger rail: At the heyday of diesel passenger rail in the 1950ies EMD had the perfect monopole, now it is Siemens with the Charger. EMD just could sell a few of the F125 to Metrolink in Southern California, with the type actually designed for high-speed long-haul trains and not commuter rail.
I only can quote the former Russian president Gorbatchov, who said: 'If you come late, live will punish you'
EMD lost their grip in 2005 when GE released the GEVO platform. Absolutely crushed EMD on fuel consumption, so much so that you couldn’t afford to not buy a GE. Add to that traction developments, C4 AC locomotive to negate the need for the DC’s, and a significant investment into tier 4. Not
Just a re-roll of a mediocre 265H that had previously flopped…My understanding is the majors were only buying EMDs to keep GE honest on price.
As for Norfolk Southern,their rebuilt SD70ACU's are all retired SD9043MAC's that belonged to Union Pacific.Most of them have been sold to Progress Rail.
Canadian Pacific also rebuilt a majority of their SD9043MAC's into SD70ACU's and have even more that they purchased from Union Pacific.
The problem with the 265H in the SD90MAC & MAC-H was no harmonic balancing,which is why they were ripping and shredding crankshafts,motor mounts,and other counterparts.
The 265H was also their first and last four stroke prime mover,to be compliant with EPA regulations,and they had to start from scratch on the design.
Part of it was EMD's fault because they were being competitive with GE's AC6000CW,which weren't that great either,although not having massive problems like what EMD was facing.
Union Pacific and Canadian Pacific dumped all of them and EMD had to retain back to the two stroke 710-G3B for the SD9043MAC's while making sure it was following emissions standards.
The EMD 265H was actually rebuilt and modified later on,but it's prolonged use was only seen in Asia and China.The alternate verison was the 210H.
General Motors completely sold EMD in 2005,and later on Caterpillar came.
EMD is Progress Rail's subsidiary,and when Caterpillar purchased them,they became EMD's parent company.
With the debut of the SD70ACE-T4's,the four stroke 1010J's are technically modernised 265H's,thanks to Caterpillar.
The major differences are the fuel injection and crankshafts.On top of that,the 1010J's are the predecessors to Caterpillar's C280 & 3600 series engines.
If T4 compliance wasn't a thing,I'm sure Caterpillar would've made the 1010J a 6,000 HP engine just like the 265H was.
In other applications,the same engines are 4,700-7,600 HP where there basically aren't heavy emissions regulations.
Unforunatley,the SD70ACE-T4's didn't get that many customer purchases due to numerous errors involving the electronics correlating to the computer system and fuel injection.All of them were immediately pulled out of service and put in storage for awhile while updates were being processed.
Union Pacific has 90 of them and CSX only has 10 that are designated as ST70AH-T4's.BNSF & Norfolk Southern had some orders for them put in,but those were canceled before production began to complete the purchase,BNSF even had some of them as demostrator units just like Union Pacific did.
@@Slim_Slid Thanks for the reply, very interesting.
It looks like most modern GE locos generally outperform most EMD models and that explains why the rosters are the way that they are. Not that I like it though, I like the EMDs.
I ageee since GE had the Dash 9’s Ac4400cw, all the GEVO’s the tier 4’s, and the cm44ah, while emd just had the Ace, Acu, ACC, and the tier 4 ace so GE seems to be better on paper
The reason GE dominates on the rails is financial, not performance. The bean counters don't care what the power is, as long as it gets down the rail. GE - now WABCO - offers a better financing package and generally costs less per unit than EMD.
Now that is the great content we have been missing. fantastic narration and detail chart breakdown. Just plain informative!!!
Thanks Man, I'm glad that you enjoyed it!
I've run both and though GE does make a decent product.. in my opinion the older EMD with the 2 stroke, namely the SD40-2 and GP's were smooth running, reliable, had a comfortable ride and pulled like hell.
Agreed. Also loved the SD-60 conventional cabs.
Cn is still using 567 gmd1s
I agree Brent that the SD40-2 is the greatest diesel locomotive ever built in North America.. Will be doing a video on them not too far away.
@@Trains21 I caught some GMD-1's on a local, they were PULLING and man, they sounded nice! It proves that even a 567 EMD still has some worth in the age of 4-strokes and microprocessors
Once again you knock it out of the park in your explanations hats off to you🎩🎩,In my 20 some years rail fanning when I started rail fanning EMD was dominant SD40-2s everywhere and Today it’s GE about 4 to 1 , the Engineers I’ve Talked to Prefer the GE for Comfort and Pulling Power but as Ross Rolland once said
i personally like the EMD's better as a railfanner, i find they have a very distinctive engine note, and they just look fabulous
When I saw the title of the video, I knew it was going to be a good one. Stay safe and have a happy holidays!
Thanks Man, you do the same!
which ever one has the better cup holder
Awesome and very detailed video! Possibly another possible comparison could be the sd70m vs dash 9, considering both are the DC traction models of the sd70mac/ ac4400cw. That would show the big differences between DC and AC power.
I will certainly consider those two.. Thanks for watching Man.
Actually, I already have the SD75M and D9-44CW on one ticket.
I've seen the old stuff from years ago when it was brand new. There are more EMD's from the 50's and on up than there are GE's today. How many F7's, 9's, and GP15's, 38's, 40's 50's, 60's, 70's and SD9's, 40's 50's, 60's, 70's, are still around. Compared to older GE's and the U boats. Not many. A lot of the old vintage EMD's are in museums. From what I've seen in my time, the GE's just don't last long in service. This is from my point of view from what I've seen in my time.
I love them both GE and EMD. I asked a CSX engineer what he preferred, he said ES44AH’s, the GEVO 12 pulled unbelievably he said. As far as flat switching goes he said 2 GP40-2’s.
That was a good show. A lot of information in there. Thank’s AC.
You're welcome Donstor, thanks for watching.
I think that you really have to look at the current products from both companies, but the most important factors are reliability and long-term running costs. I don't have sufficient information to make a choice there. I've always been a fan of EMD, but things change with time and it's important to recognise and accept that. Still, I run some model trains, and my favourite two locos are an SD40 in BNSF livery, and a demo SD45.
EMD made the F-unit and E-units, plus the F40PH.
GE had never made a locomotive nearly as cool as either of these.
Although I will say U-boats and P42's are neat.
i agree with u and my favorite locomotive is a ge u15c for Pnr or Philippine national railways
Aren’t the P-42s replacing the F40PHs do to the P-42 being safer?
@@ww1ww258 P42's don't look half as cool
@@WesternOhioInterurbanHistory I know, doesn’t really mean much in terms of safety though, the F40PHs when rolled over had a habit of bursting their fuel tanks, the P-42s didn’t because the tank is kept out of harms way inside the chassis and not exposed on the bottom
@@ww1ww258 yes, but the F40PH was Amtrak's first successful locomotive, very reliable and in service today. They made be a little less safe, but they are more reliable, cool-looking, iconic, and important to history.
SD 40 - 2 TOUGHEST DAMN LOCOMOTIVE OUT THERE .
I feel like this is not a fair comparison. Personally I’d put the SD70ACe up against the AC4400CW.
An SD70ACe would be put up against an ES44AC, SD70MACs and AC4400CWs were built during the same production era.
@@AtTheCrossingProductions actually that makes sense, I was thinking the same thing since the AC4400CW had only 100 more horsepower and both were AC Units, but the 70ACe is much newer
A couple comments from a mechanical foreman for a class 1 railroad....
1. Equipment blowers - You mention that GEs have electric rather than shaft driven equipment blower. Newer 70-series EMDs also have electrically driven blowers. Pre Tier-4 GEs did not have variable frequency drives for their electrically driven auxiliaries, so they just rotated at the same speed as the aux alt, which turned at the same speed as the Diesel engine - so there was no extra control as far as blower RPM goes. About the only reason you'd get relatively more cooling air in lower notches on a GE unit is that GEs run relatively higher engine RPMs at low throttle notches, rather than stepping up the RPM for each notch - but the problem with this is that this requires special conversion circuitry, and GEs cannot depend on the A,B,C, and D governor valve inputs that come through an MU cable to determine out what throttle notch to be in. I do have good things to say about GE air compressors, which were set up with a contactor setup to allow them to run at twice the engine RPM in lower throttle notches - although EMD's electric motor driven compressors were set up the same way, most EMDs were ordered with shaft driven compressors.
2. You mention that EMD's super series wheelslip control wears wheel profiles more quickly - I can say though, that GEs require their wheels to be trued far more often than EMDs do.
Overall, I would say that I prefer modern GEs over modern EMDs, from a work perspective because of one thing: GE provides far better bang for the buck with OEM technical support than EMD does. GEs that are so equipped also have superior live data capabilities than EMDs equivalent system, very helpful for troubleshooting road failures.
I prefer older EMDs over either of them, but then again, older EMDs isn't what is being compared in this video, and they are a whole nother world yet.
What a capital team is going to consider when making a locomotive purchase is the estimated total cost of ownership of a locomotive throughout its lifecycle - whether or not the end user or the folks turning keeping them running like them very much.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with all of us. It is much appreciated!
Realistically, it's all opinion. Of the craftspeople in our shop, each one has their own preference, but knowing that everything new that we get in the future is going to be what the powers that be want to purchase, it can definitely be a challenge as a supervisor to assign each person to work that will best develop their skills all around rather than just what they prefer.
I was once an EMD lover and a GE hater, but having to process them through a shop and deal with their failures on the road has definitely turned me on to the world of GE.
@@ih1440 Perfectly understood.
@@Trains21very good information here. Thank you.
I don’t have anything in this fight from an railroad experience perspective, but being track side often I see a lot more burned up GE locomotives than EMD, so I could easily imagine that maintenance of the GE units would be higher, both in the engine mechanicals and in the body shop.
As a Canadian who see’s (almost) only GE’s, I prefer GE locomotives because I grew up with them. I like EMD’s but I prefer GE’s. Still thatdoesn’t mean EMD’s are bad! EMD made one of my favourite locomotives of all time! The SD70ace. But the Dash-9 are better in my heart.
We use both working in the Australian outback (The EMD is the SD70ACe), and the EMD loco is far superior for reliability in the extreme heat.
I want to see what C A T brings to EMD locomotives in the future
Cat knows how to build an excellent diesel engine. They also have wide experience in the electrical end of things as well. I'm with you on seeing what the future brings.
@@tpniefer CAT need to stop sleeping on EMD and do something revolutionary!
As a locomotive electrician with 6 years on EMD and 4 years on GE, I give the nod to EMD but only by a little. They both have heaps of problems. EMD software is a little better, but that is just my opinion.
Thanks for sharing Kraken!
One other nod I would give to EMD is superstar technical support. Their manuals and troubleshooting guides are top notch. Locos can have unlimited electrical problems and EMD is very good in helping you get it worked out.
Locomotive engineer here. My experience with the SD70 high adhesion units versus the latest from GE is that EMD will wheel slip more than the GE. That being said I still prefer the EMD over the GE, probably because when I got my start the fight was between the Dash 7 and SD40 and in that contest there is no contest. I still say give me a fleet of SD40's and I'd run circles around any railroad today (provided they were mechanically reliable...)
EMD… hands down!!!
EMDs 645s were fan favorites and is mine as well. The 710 never really captured the sound of a SP 6x4 lash up in run 8 up Donner or Tehachapi. But i believe there are far more AC4400s living than SD70MACs
@spacecalender Even GE Tier 4's Outperform EMD Tier 4's, In Amount Produced. All But Canadian Pacific And Ferromex Have The ET44AC And/Or ET44C4, While CSX And Union Pacific Are The Only Ones To Own SD70ACe-T4'S.
@@calebtrains2261 Agreed. The EMD 645 is gone and so is the original EMD company, so the new T4s for so called EMD are no competition for the Old GEs, GE sold off its locomotive division about as smart as them selling off their lightbulb division. Industry leader at the time in both.
@@spacecalander BTW, I Kinda Know Who Canadian Pacific And CSX Prefer.
EMD will hold max dynamic braking down to 0.5mph....the GE 2.0mph. EMDs HTCR trucks are far better and a passive design. GEs are active and require more maintenance, but I heard the newer GEs have software that somehow negates the need for self steering trucks altogether which is why newer locos dont have it. GEs are far easier to work on.
The better comparison would have been the ac44ah and sd70macs with the 4300hp 710s which have all been ballasted down to I think 432klbs.
I didn't know about the EMD mechanical blowers. That is _so_ Alco of them!
...WHAT? Alco had turbochargers.
I think a better comparison would have been between the ES44AC and the SD70ACe. They're more closely matched.
I'll probably end up doing those too. This was only Round 1.
I'll take the older EMD'S and the newer GE'S.
I was brought up on working on SD40's fantastic Locomotives, but now a days it's really hard to beat a GE 4400 AC.
The EMD'S are much more dependable all of the way around. ( a lot less breakdowns)
Very good analytical comparison of two popular well made locomotives.
Best overall argument! Nicely done!
Thank you Daniel!
Excellent video. It is hard to look at the sales numbers over the past two decades and argue that EMD is the superior product. EMD has struggled with changing ownership, leadership and an overall disconnect with their customers whereas GE has built enduring relationship with customers that allows them to ID the needs of RR's better. A good example of this that affected crews was the lower cost, rectangular, flat windshields EMD began placing on the new SD70ACe cabs in the late 2000's. The flat angle of these and removal of the teardrop caused awful glare issues as elements in the cab were reflected off the windows. This was compounded by the new shape's reduced size and visibility. This is a pretty shocking oversight that showed that EMD engineers had largely forgotten not only what RR's want reliability-wise but also what crews want. It is a metaphor for the downfall of the organization, IMO. One wonders what the similar oversights were on the mechanical level.
With that being said, there is a strong affinity for the humming of EMD 2-stroke engines among railfans, and the overall feel of an EMD working is far more pleasing to us railfans for a variety of reasons; but said simply, they just seem to make the ground shake more as they go by. And you, know, for us not employed by the RR's, that's really the most important thing.
Thus, I think the most important thing to take away from the whole debate is that, yes, GE is economically and operationally superior; but EMD is aesthetically and emotionally superior.
Well stated. I used to work for EMD and I have a nostalgic view of SD60s and SD70 MACS because I worked on them. I was raised on F units and SD40-2's, and I have an emotional attachment. But GE did colonize the RR world. You have good insight my friend.
Like Bill TImmons before me said, well stated! Thanks for chiming in.
Both locomotives look close in specs. However, the ultimate test is reliability and overall cost to the railroad. If a locomotive has lower operating costs and does not break down, railroads are going to listen to those numbers first.
truth of the matter is, Class 1's are appropriating millions of dollars to refurb and update EMD stored locomotives while scrapping a great deal of the Garbage Engineering (GE) junkamotives. In the words of BNSF: GE locomotives are cheap and expendable. That says it all. EMD's that are not being rebuilt for class 1 revenue service are being snapped up by all the short line railroads. They are dependable, easy to repair and work on, have a glut of available parts, and still have millions of miles left in them to use for revenue freight service.
I like both. A train with an SD70ACE, SD70MAC, and an AC4400CW is quite awesome to me.
Indeed.
Look how many 40 + year old EMDs are still around, even with major railroads, compared with how many Dash 7s of a similar age you'll still see around. Not to mention the propensity of Dash 9s/AC4400s for catching fire. Which is not to say that I dislike GEs; I do love the sound of them on heavy loads.
Bro I just realized I've actually railfanned the exact same CP 8636 AC4400CW that you used for the video not that long ago here in Saskatchewan. I was watching the video like "hold on, that serial number sounds awfully familiar" only to realize that locomotive passed right through my town back in September. Small world amirite
Haha.. Nice!
Great video! While there is no train on this planet that I hate, I am an EMD person. I always have been and always will be. GE may have had the upper hand in recent years, but there is just something about the whine and hum of a 710...
I doubt this arguement will ever be settled, and all I have to say is that they both make pretty cool locos, so I'm happy.
Agreed!
One such argument often overlooked between the SD70MAC and the AC4400CW's: Siemens' electrical packages on EMD were never really as good as GE's through out the 1990's and 2000's. I have heard on many occasions that electricians do not like the Siemens systems for many different reasons, where the GE systems are often on the AC4400 the more preferred package.
When EMD brought in the Mitsubishi Electrical system (MELCo), then EMD's SD70ACe's had an improved electrical system that could compete with the GE Evo. Series. It's not perfect, but at least MELCo seems to be better than Siemens.
The newest MELCo systems also provide one axle control vs. one truck control, as the GEs do.
@@silicon212 Correct. Also, EMD kept the option of one inverter per truck available, although many, if not most, have gone with the one per axle.
@@stephenroberts4895 I was curious about that. I worked the 70 MACs during the Siemens era. We had some German Siemens tech reps onsite to support us. The German reps were great guys, but they were kinda secretive about their tech. The software was in German so we had F keys associated with English commands on our laptops that ran algorithms. Back then AC tech was for us revolutionary, so we need Euro expertise . Our world was F keys and savvy troubleshooting based on experience. The Siemens one inverter per truck had pros and cons. I wondered if MELCo was per truck or per axle. Thanks for info.
@@billtimmons7071 My pleasure. Glad to have given some insight.
27 year's and it don't matter to me I like when any of them break down and I get to go home without doing the whole trip .
The worst Steam is better than the best diesel.
So EMD vs. GE is like asking the teacher you hated the most vs. the worst ex you ever had.
one thing is GE locomotives are more common then EMD locomotives meaning more GE locomotives are sold and bought by BNSF, NS, CSX and UP the most common model is the C44-9W
I would say ... A better match would be the SD70ACe teir 4 vs ET44AC. As the SD70MAC are becoming rare to see on mainline rails.
I prefer to Run the EMDs in the yard or for short mainline runs. As the load and get up to speed way quicker than GE's. It's like running a big GP38 or GP40.
But if I had a long heavy train. Give me those GE's. They grip the rail and they pull. Also they have the best dynamic brake but they are slow loaders.
So Speed vs Power.
Thanks for your input Sir. And for watching.
I'm not really a fan of most of GM's products in general, but I am a massive fan of old Detroit 2 stroke diesels, so I gravitate toward and will throw my vote for the EMD locomotives. I still love the sound of 3+ GE locomotives rolling by, but in the end, I'm a mechanic and I have a love older designs that have stood the test of time. I've been looking for a Detroit 4-53T to swap into a pickup truck because I want a 2 stroke diesel for myself.
The EMD engines have been used in many other applications like large pumping units and power stations as well. The maintenance on them is about as easy as you could possibly make it for an engine that size.
EMD by far. They don’t randomly catch on fire or explode.
The only engines I've ever run that caught fire were EMDs. SD70MACs to be exact
Even if we go back to the ge toaster days that was in the past. GE’s crankshafts don’t snap as much as hmm the sd 45 or didn’t have as many problems as the sd50’s you Emd fan boys like to beat a dead horse but hate it when GE fans beat on Emd’s failures soooooooooo.
@@Mcnibbus or you could say the EMD's fail on the inside, but those GE's always fail on the outside!
@@rearspeaker6364 you could
I don’t know what to say about older GE units like the Dash 7 and universal series. It seems like they last in Brazil with basically no maintenance.
Stunning video!!
Thanks Train Lover!
My only criteria for deciding which brand is my favorite is comfort/ ergonomics. EMDs have cramped cabs and the operator controls aren't intuitively designed compared to GE. Now, I'm only referring to road locomotives. For switcher engines i tend to prefer EMD because they are simpler to start, and cut in/ out air brakes, and Geeps load up faster.
Thanks for sharing your experience Chapp!
@@Trains21 anytime!
@@kensingtonchapp4819 just remember, the EMD basic control stand is what GE started with.
Both GE and EMD are awesome!
That's the spirit
I'd like to see a shootout between the GE U-50 and EMD DD-40. Battle Of The Dinosaurs
EMD makes better switchers with their Geeps and SWs. But GE always had their mainline fleet of ACs, C40s, C44s, and Gevos. Each company has great and bad models.
I drive freight trains in Australia and give me a Clyde/Progress Rail EMD over a UGL GE any day. Our EMD's pull just as good as the GE's if not better in all manner of weather. Just my opinion.
Emd all the way. Ge has the chugging sound. Emd has that nice humming sound to them.
Agreed.
1940-1970's: EMD
1980'S: GE
1990's: GE
2000'S: Draw
2010's: GE
2020's: GE
I agree, but the 80s was a tie for me. It wasn't until the 90s that GE became really big
As assistant locomotive pilot in indian railways I prefer EMD than GE.
U definitely would know..India is brutal y’all work them hard
I thought you guys drove alco?
@@snug-fibbage7441 yes we have some alco locomotive but soon they will be retired from service.
I'd like to see both of these up against a Fairbanks Morse Trainmaster. They were some pulling mules! Also very fuel efficient with their opposed piston engines! Shame they never get any credit.
They like the EMDs were 2 strokes. The problem with OP engines is the maintenance to keep the pistons properly opposed!
I like EMD better by far.