WHEEL VS THREE POINT LANDINGS | TAILDRAGGER
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.พ. 2019
- A discussion about whether a wheel landing or a three point landing is better to use. This has been an age old argument amongst many tail wheel pilots and today we discuss the pros and cons of both types of landings.
*DISCLAIMER - I am not an instructor and this should not be used as formal instruction. This is purely for entertainment purposes.
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I leared in a tail dragger in the late 50s and flew them for 3000 hours on floats skies and wheels. The wheel landing was used to protect the tail wheel from the rough terrain,landing at a big airport and keeping your speed up so you were off the runway quickly ( stearsman avenger and Harvard) the 3 point was to stop quick for whatever reason and now using the brakes which were only good for a few seconds back then,
Wayne Gilling this all makes sense and seems the common theory amongst most is the wheel landing
This was an excellent description..... I taught myself wheel landings back in late 60s. I was building flying hours in an old Aeronca Super(85hp!) Chief and this airplane was a real floater....crosswinds and humpy grass strips were challenging. Side slips were good for slowing down and killing altitude but really needed to get airplane onto the ground sooner. My instructor had told me about wheel landings but I had my new license so I assumed I was smart enough to teach myself. Sound familiar?! Pushing the wheel ahead instead of pulling back takes a lot of guts!..... but I learned. Then I started practicing in crosswinds...... that was really the answer, especially on humpy runways. I could roll the upwind wheel onto the ground at almost any time and the airplane was as solid as a rock.......no more wind gust surprises. I haven’t flown in 30 years but this brings back memories.
Love hearing about others experiences! Sounds like you eventually mastered quite a difficult airplane to fly. Thank you for the comment!
I've got about 2,000 hours in taildraggers. I've owned a Maule MX-7-180 for 20 years and I fly a Cessna 185F for work. My Maule has 31" Alaskan bushwheels. I flew it to the Idaho back country in 2016 and did an individual mountain-canyon flying refresher with one of Lori MacNichols' instructors out of McCall ID. I landed the Maule in a lot of back country airstrips. Some of them were 1,500 feet of rough surface vegetation with ruts - Wilson Bar and Soldier Bar. The approach had to be steep and slow with full flaps (48 degrees in the Maule) to clear trees and land short. The technique I used most was a tail-low wheel landing. Final approach speed was 55 mph. Timing the flare and touchdown are tricky at such a slow approach speed. The airstrips were so rough that I wanted the big 31" bushwheels to take most of the beating before setting the more fragile tail wheel down. I also wanted good visibility ahead since there are often other aircraft or wildlife on the runway. Those are the benefits of a wheel landing. However, I also wanted to land short using brakes. I won't use brakes until the tail wheel is on the ground and the yoke/stick is all the way back to prevent nosing over. The Maule has a heavy tail and you can nose over quickly if you brake too hard with it in the air. A tail low wheel landing allows you to approach at a slower airspeed than a level attitude wheel landing, which shortens the landing roll. The disadvantage is that it takes a lot of practice to judge the flare and touchdown without bouncing.
Thank you for the comment! Very interesting insight into using the best of both techniques to solve your problems.
Maule Pilot - I too find the tail low wheelie to be my favorite! I can’t say I always get it right though 😉
I had quite a bit of time flying a Maule M5.
3 point landings where the norm.
Minimal speed, shortest ground roll.
I found wheel landings difficicult because of the really firm undercarrige.
Just a little bit off would ensure a bounce.
The best wheel landing I ever did in the Maule was the one where I knew I had blown the tail wheel just before take off.
A perfect, smooth, no-bounce landing. It just goes to show what you can do when the pressure is on.
On the other hand I also have time in a Chipmonk.
Big long soft oleos on the undercarrige.
A wheel landing was a joy and a piece of cake!
Yep! Certainly a per landing and per aircraft decision to make
This video is excellent data point for people to think about. Thomas points out the pros and cons of both.. a pilot should practice both, and become proficient in both.. There are times for both.. Each aircraft is a little different too.. I have seen pilots 3 point in short distances, and have seen others wheel land in short distances in the same plane! In an aircraft with flaps, that adds another dimension of control with dumping them on landing in a controlled manner. Crosswinds also are a big factor, as is Aileron effectiveness..
Work on both, become proficient in both, develop your own scenarios for both.. I personally do about 4 wheel landings to every tail landing in my Husky, but in my Sedan, it was the opposite. In the Maule and Stinson it was the tail wheel landing I liked, dumping the flaps, and it stopped now. The Stearman it was a wheel landing every time for me. The husky has a lot of different landings you can do, so whats the goal? smooth?, short?, crosswind?, touch n roll?, this is when you factor in exposure to gusts and winds.. For a flaperon aircraft, its different than for a traditional flap/aileron setup..
Finally CG plays a huge factor in short field performance with tail control, and stick movements required..
Learn your aircraft, know your CG, Practice your patterns, and get good guidance from someone who is good at instruction, and proficient in the aircraft you fly. But you need to be able to do both landings, and transition between them to be proficient.
Goose F16 thanks so much for the insight! This TH-cam thing really is a good way to learn from a myriad of different techniques and teachings. I will continue to practice both because as you say there are times and places for both.
great video. cameras were placed really well. The discussion was great too. I have no time in taildraggers but have considered flying some. this helped me visualize the process and see the differences. Thanks so much
hope you do some draggin' soon. find a CFI who stresses aileron usage on the ground and also teaches you to use the throttle to decide where you want to touch down. too many pilots throttle hand seems to get paralyzed when near the runway......that's when you need it most! i don't let any student even consider touching a tire on pavement until they can control the aircraft with precision for the entire length of a 5000' runway. that means over the centerline and L axis of the plane aligned with the runway and 5-10 feet above the runway in a level pitch attitude. If you can't do that how do you think you are going to touch down in control? I can't find anybody else who teaches this and i can't believe it!
Nice video. Love your airplane! I don’t agree with your initial comparison between the two types of landings....though you didn’t say anything wrong, you left the most important distinction out. An airplane is fully stalled (ideally) at the point of touchdown in a three pointer. An airplane is still flying at the point of touchdown when wheel landing. Big difference. I know you certainly know this....maybe just forgot to mention it. 😉.
Here’s what I teach as a guideline...3 point when the condition of the runway is rough, short or maybe wet. Wheel landings the rest of the time. All that goes out the window if your plane has poor prop clearance, is under ruddered, or maybe is heavy at the tail. I also think it is important to pick the kind of landing you will use while on downwind and yet be able to quickly transition from one to the other in the flare as circumstance warrant (read, if you screw up).
I dont get the three point landing on rough rwy's.
Wouldn't you be better off having your main gear absorb the bumps rather than the small tail wheel that is not as robust?
@@FunkMasterJunk - No bumps would be best 😉. But if they are there, a hard bump can tip the nose forward enough to hit the prop or worse. If I had to have one or the other happen, I’d rather bust a tailwheel than hit a prop any day. With that said, I think the guys with tundra tires have a lot more wiggle room and can deal better with wheel landings on rough surfaces than your normal arrangement. I think they use large cushy tailwheel tires too. Maybe one of the bush guys can comment.
Three point of you always can….. cars are meant to drive, planes meant to fly……, so fly it until it can’t, and then a bit after. Land at the minimum speed possible, and you reduce/nearly eliminate the ground loop possibility.
Now, I’m only a few hour into tail wheel, but so far, Martin has it dead on, Josh second, Steve close third.
to the last post; the only time I landed the Bristol freighter 3 point was on a military grade strip; the rest of the time was wheel landing
I think everyone should fly a tailwheel at some point. They are a blast
You make all of it look easy! But thanks for the demo. Concise and clear distinction; should leave little doubt which is which.
At this point I was only a 30/40hr Taildragger pilot. The beat thing about this kind of flying is that you continue to learn and it keeps you very much on your toes
WOW thats a great video. Very helpfull. Thks
I appreciated your video. I realize as far as which landing is best, it depends upon who you talk to. For Me flying off 1500ft strips in Bolivia SA with a Cessna 185. I always used the wheel landing. On short final speed down to 5 kts above stall, flare stopping the decent just before touchdown then roll forward on mains applying hard breaking with back presser on the yoke to keep it from nosing over was standard practice. I disliked three point lands for it seemed I was having to wait on the airplane to decide when to land, where with the wheel landing I chose the spot.
Ron Walker as I have progressed further in my Taildragger experience, I cannot agree with you more. Well said!
The ailerons are key to the mains landing... can really place the aircraft down exactly where you want too, but good control is your xw control during the roll out
Very nice. Considering the purchase of a tail wheel and checking out which one to buy.
Awesome! You won’t regret it
If it is done correctly, a 3 point landing is a FULL STALL CONDITION at the time of landing when all three wheels hit the ground, whereas in a 2 point landing the aircraft is STILL FLYING when the mains touch the ground and, if the elevator control (whether it be a stick or a control wheel) is moved to the UP position, the aircraft will rotate nose upward and fly again. MANY people miss that simple difference between the two landings....one is a full stall and the other is NOT!
I agree, Ron. I was taught by old timers to do power off, full stall landings whenever possible. Where I’m from we have mostly short and/or unimproved strips. About the only time I do wheel landings is on long runways to keep from taxiing forever or to adjust to the flow of traffic. I even make full stall landings in my Bonanza....just hold it off and bleed off the speed until it gently touches down. I rarely make wheel landings in my Stearman as I’ve found it’s easier to control in a 3 point, full stall landing even though you can’t see anything over the nose....got to develop a good peripheral vision. Wheel landings are more difficult to control especially the transition to 3 point.
Nice video. Good job. Seemed like 75 was a little fast. What's Vs0 on that plane?
Fantastic demo, very well done
kevin Robinson thank you sir
Very cool- thank you!
Thomas, your videos are Awesome. ....I am in the USA....so love the South African countryside and terrain. ....if I ever win the lottery, I am coming to South Africa, buy a Safari KFA and fly with you...!
Either way, always be ready for the ineffective rudder transition of about 1.0 - 2.0 seconds as the tail drops
and especially in intermittent crosswind gust conditions. Ride'um cowboy !
The balance of differential braking here is crucial
Michael A. - I would contend that the transition from tail up to tail down in a wheel landing is no worse than when the tail first comes up on takeoff. Agreed that the transition in either case is the point when things can go nuts pretty quickly, but I’ve never felt the need to not wheel land an airplane because of the transition. Something like 3,000 tailwheel airplane landings in my log book and no issues so far (and I mostly wheel land). Now that I said it though, watch out....tomorrow probably will be the day 😂
90% of my landings in a Luscombe are 3 point full stall landings. My thoughts are keep it an airplane as long as possible, put it on the ground with as little energy left as possible.
I'm going with what she said! The Navy 3 point crash landing 1000%.
Very Nice landings.. 🙂
Power on approaches were never approved by my instructor 45 years ago for tailwheel. (unless required for spacing or tower ops) Midfield, carb heat on, power back, set glide speed - adjust as necessary, land within 100 feet of target spot. Repeat every time thereafter.
well said man! waste of good avgas!
It all depends on which type of landing you are comfortable with. I can and do use both techniques, as the bottom line is the plane is controllable with both techniques as long as you are proficient.
For sure! Interchangeably for different situations.
I enjoyed this! Very nice video quality and appreciated the breakdown on the topic. I would also recommend watching 2 videos that can be found on the channel "Martin Pauly". Martin interviews a master airman named Doug Rozendaal.
It's a 2-part video and the first one is entitled "Tailwheels and Crosswind - Part I".
Mr. Rozendaal digs into the conversation a lot, especially in regards to how the better choice is aircraft specific. For example, he mentions that a DC-3 can be landed either way, but if you attempt a 3 point landing and don't execute it perfectly, you can break that airplane. So, nearly all landings in a DC-3 are done as wheel landings. I know that's an extreme example as most of us will never fly a DC-3, but the point is that there are lots of variables that determine the best option
I liked your point about the visibility advantage a wheel landing has when landing on an undeveloped airfield you've never been to before. My favorite comment that Mr. Rozendaal made was that if someone wants to be a true master of flying tailwheel aircraft, you should have mastery of BOTH types of landings.
One last thing, is a comment he made about 3-point landings. He said even better than touching down on all 3 wheels simultaneously, is that it's better if the tail wheel touches down just before the main wheels. This is because if you have any excessive inertia when the main wheels touch down (sudden downdraft or misjudging descent speed), since the center of gravity is AFT of the main wheels, this will cause the tail wheel to slam to the ground, which can lead to more problems. If the tailwheel touches down first, the fact that the center of gravity is aft of the main wheels is a non-issue as the worst thing that happens is it just brings the main wheels down a little faster. Not an issue as long as the main wheels are just a few inches off the ground when the tail wheel touches down.
Thanks again Thomas and I hope my recommendation of the video I referenced is interesting.
Thank you 😊
Awesome video, I can’t wait to fly a taildragger someday
Hope this helps! th-cam.com/video/E3q2Swzi2q8/w-d-xo.html
@@wackaircaftmechanic2312 Sure does! Thank you
Well Done !
Excellent Sir! Just subbed!
Jazz Man thanks! Appreciate it!
I have over 4K hours in a 185. I prefer to land almost three point, very tail low as slow as possible. Protects the tail wheel from rough field and doesn’t get you into a situation beyond your flight controls capabilities.
At some point the tail has to come down. Do you want to do/try that after wheel landing, slowing down and the tail has lost its effectiveness, that’s a recipe for a ground loop. Works fine with no crosswind. Wheeling on fast to compensate for a crosswind gives you a problem of transitioning to the low speed your controls don’t work with tail up.
A guy who owns a 185 is hangared across from me and he says exactly the same thing
Depends on the weather
I have more than 600 hours flying a Kudu type aircraft and always go for 3 pointers
Awesome! I've seen a few turbine Kudus around. Beautiful taildragger!
A lot of people here call a three point landing a full stall landing. It almost never is. Most aircraft out there have too flat a ground attitude to put the wing at a fully stalled angle. Most average about 12 degrees or less. A wing with a typical aspect ratio (as opposed to one in a wind tunnel) will probably still producets of lift around 18 or so degrees.
Having said all that, I'll add fuel to the fire by saying I have absolutely no use for wheel landings. Asphalt or dirt or grass, the tail touches first. It's what the tailwheel is for. Wiggling down the runway with the tail in the air in a crosswind is downright dumbl. In the last 1000 landings in my Maule, I think I did one wheel landing and only because someone asked me to.
Good video sir
Nice video are you not flying in mph?
Headset on backwards?
Also depends on the kind of plane. I flew a 1966 Citabria 7ECA with the Aeronca-style oleo strut type gear. With 4+ inches of travel. 3 point landings could be dicey until the gear settled (as compared with the bungie gear on the PA12 I also flew which was very solid once the wheels touched down). This meant virtually all 3 point landings behaved more like a "tail wheel first" landing since the front of the plane was still flying.
Wheel landings (once mastered) were easier with the Citabria since you flew it to the ground, and cut power once the mains touched down, but still had rudder authority until the plane quit flying. Also better in a crosswind since you could put the upwind wheel down first and let the plane continue until everything was back on the ground.
I had quite a few hours in the Piper before I started flying the Citabria and converted from all 3-point to mostly wheel due to the idiosyncrasies of the oleo gear.
Douglas Ruby very interesting read! Thanks Douglas. All different aircraft have their own little ways that they like to operate at certain stages of flight - it is up to the competency of the pilot to best handle these.
I have actually a bit more than 1000 taildragger landingd. Definitely for me also only the 3 Point! I tried both. But the plane in crosswind is easier to control, when you have the Tailwheel pressed with full stick back into the ground. Many accidents like flip over only happen with wheel landings! With a three point you can brake much harder if nessacery. With a short RWY like 180m the approach speed is too high to go on wheels. Even if you bounce in three point, the less airspeeds keeps you on ground. Some pilots say: In heavy crosswind only go for wheel landings. If you ask me: this is the worst you can do. Maybe with some taildragger with a big rudder it’s possible. But wheel landing in strong crosswind is my last option. Happy landings.....
Big factor is wind direction and speed. I`ve got 1400 hrs. in T/D`s. You need to come in hot to allow for wind changes. The rudder`s were big on my past airplanes and that helped. I had an Aeronca Chief, Cessna 140, and RV-4.
LOL, That old C120/140 can humble you quick!
BirDog, IMO It depends. either work.. It very much depends on the plane. is the plane a floater or not.. In the husky, either work but the exposure during big crosswinds the plane will float or bounce easily in a crosswind.. so the wheel landing with 20 flap is a very common landing in the crosswind,.. dump the flaps, and get it pinned to the ground quicker.
@@goose-F16 The 140 is boring easy and likes too much ground roll for take off.
Birddog Austria You are incorrect. Most prop strikes happen at slow speed on all three wheels when the pilot brakes too hard after the elevator loses its effectiveness.
If you're buying a kit & have to choose between building a tail dragger and a nose wheel, which would you choose & why?
taildraggers are more fun haha
It looks like a Kitfox but with better visibility?
Modelled on a Kitfox but slightly larger than the SS7. Wider and taller cabin, allowing for better vis.
Why do you fly so far out before turning final? Is there a reason you drag the plane with power to land?
We’re not that far out, standard circuit. Drag the plane in to get it to land as slow as possible
@@ThomasMarrow It depends when you were taught. Back in the 60's it was a close in base, idle all the way to touchdown.
Remember a circuit was designed so that if you lost an engine you could glide back to the field. These days every lightie wants to fly a B747 circuit. Ridiculous.
Wheel landings have a lot of advantages in crosswind. Keep the rudder up in the airstream. When you lower it, it is blanketed by the fuselage.
Rudder gets tooooo much credit for that which it aerodynamically just can't accomplish on the runway !
AILERONS RULE because;
They have, 2 to 4 times more surface area than the rudder & 2 to 4 times the leverage of the rudder.
Rudder is vertical to relative wind, therefore easily stalls in Xwind, as plane slows. Ailerons being horizontal to relative wind hardly recognize xwinds up to 60°.
Easy rule: On roll out, keep ailerons, PROPORTIONALY OPPOSITE the needed rudder, and the aileron YAW will keep her straight. Cheers.
CFI Bud since 1962
PS: Works on take off as well.
amen Bud! I rarely hear this discussed and you can save many a ground loop with proper aileron inputs! God bless you Bud I can't begin to tell you how glad i am to hear this from ANYBODY!
Im no pilot but id say pilots shoud practice wheel landing because its beter for emergency landing and any where like bush pilot's half to do it all the time .
3 point, it should be 3 point.
Is that a Avid or Kitfox copy?
Scotabot copy is not quite the word but it is based around the Kitfox design
@@ThomasMarrow is that a capella ?
Brantsen Gill it’s a Kitplanes for Africa Safari. Manufactured in South Africa
@@ThomasMarrow ah, well I definitely enjoyed the video, keep up the good work!!!
1:51 OUCH
I am in training. I thought that the 3 wheel landing was going to be easier but i am finding out that the 2 wheel landing is easier for me. For some reason i tend to bounce the airplane on the 3 point landing more often. On the 2 wheel landings I tend to do better. Since I practice by myself fast 2 wheel taxing on runway, when I do come down for landings with my instructor, I feel comfortable when the two wheels touch down, from there on it is as if I was practicing my 2 wheel fast taxing on runway. Just the opposite of what I originally thought. Thanks for the video.
Yes. I felt that too but I was just the opposite, I bounced all my wheel landings and greased my three pointers haha. Personal preference and confidence is always a key factor to good landings. Thanks for the comment! Wishing you many more happy landings!
do another 50 landings, then develop your skill set and evaluate
Tyre size ?
Queque Parodi 27”
1:50 jumpscare
Wheel landings are the best because many times a taildragger had a ground loop because a pilot did a three point. I'm not doing three point EVER
I suppose that is dependent on what you are flying. I often use a three point but use each type as they are required
@@ThomasMarrow That's also true. I probably should have also mentioned the conditions or something similar. It's basically a situation like yours except I do more wheel. Awesome channel by the way
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