Where do Orcs Come From? - Understanding Orc Origins | Lord of the Rings Lore | Middle-Earth
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 พ.ย. 2022
- Where do Orcs come from? Were they once Elves, Men or Beasts? Or did they have an entirely different origin? In this episode we discuss the various origins that Tolkien had created for the Orcs, including their creation at Morgoth's hands, and the corruption of the creations of Iluvatar. We also discuss whether Orc Women existed, and we briefly outline the different origins of the Uruk-Hai and Orcs, as we delve into the lore of the Lord of the Rings.
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The twisted elf origin is the best. It just fits the best and doesn't create too many complications.
Yeah it's my favourite one too, I wish he kept it as the main canon
Eru intervened when Sauron tried to lead the Numenorians against the Undying Lands. If the elves really were being corrupted, I believe he would have intervened again
Other than the elves being far more powerful creatures than orcs.
Life expectancy becomes the main issue. Also, where do their fëar go? To the Halls of Mandos? Do they linger in Middle Earth until the Dagorath? The fate of their fëar is an issue if their origin is Elven or Human.
@@Enerdhil
Elves also have the problem of “Fading”…
they become something like a wraith at that point.
Does that just go away with such a mutation?
Are such mutants just something like elf zombies?
To me,
because of the Fading,
it would make more sense that the elves would serve as
more effective slaves
if they became something like a substantially more dangerous form of the Nazgûl.
The orcs seem to be something more like the original 7 Dwarves,
who were said to be carved from stone by Aulë.
It is also known that
the lack of visible female dwarves caused the elves to
mistakenly believe that dwarves were born from stone…
Orcs do seem to be crudely brought forth from a corrupted earthen source…
from the miry clay,as it were,
like Saruman’s Uruk-hai
in the film,
though-
instead of rock,
like the 7 Dwarves.
At any rate,
where would you get so many elves to create all of these orcs
if that’s where they came from?
It seems like there were more orcs than elves.
Humans would be easier to come by,
that’s for sure.
I could see that perhaps SOME elves were tortured and warped into mutants but I just can’t see all
those orcs coming from elves…
yet-
orcs made from humans,dwarves or elves would surely seem to come out differently…
Whatever we prefer to think,
Tolkien decided against the idea
that orcs came from elves
and I,for one,
respect his creative sovereignty…
in all things Middle Earth-
not just where it suits me and my opinions,
I must say.
The movies weren't very helpful in clarifying their origin... They reference the corruption of the elves, breeding but then also where they're being pulled fully grown out of earth and slime. I think there's some appeal in leaving it intentionally vague on how/where the dark Lord creates his army since misinformation and deceit fits his character and plays in his favor. Even if it isn't true, the psychological warfare advantage against the elves that they could be twisted and tortured into becoming servants of Sauron would be pretty impactful.
Yeah they tried to show various origins I suppose, though I think they did an okay job since it would have impossible for the movies to delve into this topic
I certainly do not mean any criticism by this, but it's really nice to hear your voice and the sincerity and love for Tolkien over a professional narrator. I get the pragmatic side and respect that too, but in your own way you do a better job than someone who lacks a real passion for middle earth. What I'm trying to say great job and thank you
Thanks Greg I appreciate it mate! Usually I'd have to go with another narrator when I'm just really busy irl, since I'd hate to leave this channel without new content :(
@@GeekZoneMT
That gentleman is very good - clearly professional - but in the end, not you, Karl. You're the best!
Yeah me too
I don't see any trouble with orcs having more than one origin. In the beginning there could've been two tribes of orcs. One derived from elves, one from men.
Later these two tribes would cross breeds creating a third, mixed tribe.
Then, there may be additional groups or tribes, the orcs of TLOTR may been the result of crossbreedings among several groups creating the goblin, the orcs and the Uruk Hai.
I like the idea of maiar orcs. It just sounds cool to have these extra powerful orcs around.
Yeah I wish we saw a few of them in action, would have been sick
@@GeekZoneMT There are theories that Bolg and The Goblin King are their descendants due to their large size.
I think the elven origin makes more sense, see my comment, and Maia orcs don't make sense because he's making a mockery of Maia not elves this way, but it is more Melkor than any other way! Here he's making a mockery of Eru Iluvitar's own creations! Created by his very mind! He's mocking Eru Iluvitar himself!
@@AndreasSelzerWeren’t all Gundabad orcs as big tho?
@@stepanpazderka5497 They are in the films. But Bolg and Azog are still larger than the average Gundabad Orc in the films too.
The problem with corrupting instead of creating, is why stop corrupting? Also, that Morgoth could corrupt Illuvatar's creations would seem too strong. The same issue is with why stop creating? What solves this issue is simple. Morgoth was able to create. However, once he himself got corrupted by challenging Illuvatar, he could no longer create. However, he was able to corrupt all his previous creations only.
Melkor had all the powers of the other Valar, which means he could create "fauna" like Yavanna. The fauna would not be sentient, however.
But...Melkor challenged Illuvatar before ANYTHING in Arda was made. The timeline does not fit. Also, Melkor's limit of corruption was his own power. in "MORGOTH'S RING" it is made clear that Arda itself is Morgoth's ring--in that he poured so much of his own innate power into the word's marring that he weakened himself. When the Valar entered Arda, Melkor could defeat all the other Valar combined! Later he was just barely defeated when Tulkas entered the fray. Still later, the combined Valar and Maiar were able to defeat Melkor and imprison him. But the time he returned to Middle Earth, Morgoth was now able to be wounded and could no longer assume a fair shape, or perhaps any shape. He was now reduced into a physical form, i.e. a body, which for a Vala is a terrible descent.
So Morgoth's power went into things, to corrupt living beings in the creation of Trolls, dragons, Orcs, etc. He corrupted everything in Arda itself, thus reducing himself. His corruption had limits.
It's a fascinating evolution of origin ideas, and the final idea of corrupted Men seems to me the most logical, but all of the origin concepts have some intriguing implications, with corrupted animals bred with men or elves being possibly the most hideous. The idea of Maiar orcs never occurred to me but makes perfect sense and is very cool in concept.
Yeah, though I get the feeling that even though this was the final origin Tolkien came up with, he would have probably adapted it further if he lived long enough
I prefer the corrupted elves and humans. It makes more sense to me.
Nice to hear your voice again Carl.
The part that is still perplexing is that even by switching the origins of orcs to be corrupted men, you are still left with the issue of them having fëa. Even if redemption is possible for orcs, they come into Arda to do evil so why would Eru Ilúvatar create fëa for them? I suspect the origins of orcs is one of those issues that Tolkien was still wrestling with when he passed away.
Personally, I like the idea that orcs were originally bred from some other sort of beast with some sort of "gene insertion" equivalent from men and possibly elves to make orcs intelligent enough to be useful as soldiers but they would still lack sentience as only Eru Ilúvatar could create that. I also like the idea that some of the orcs (the most powerful ones) were actually Maia in disguise so to speak or descended from such Maia. I'm dubious about the idea of such Maia being able to reform their bodies though. If that could happen, why didn't any of the balrogs return? The only two known instances of a Maia returning in a physical form are Sauron, who had much of his power stored in the One Ring, and Gandalf, who was sent back by Eru Ilúvatar.
Yeah I think even though this was the final origin that Tolkien came up with, I don't imagine he'd have been fully satisfied with it, since it was still inconsistent with his personal philosophies
I don't think Tolkien thought anything about what happened to the fëar of dead Orcs. If their origin is Elven or human, then they would end up in Halls of Mandos. If they are of Elvish origin, their fëar would stay in Mandos until the Dagorath. It is possible that their fëar could be trapped in Arda until the Dagor Dagorath, but Tolkien never told us anything like that happened. If their origin is human, their fëar would leave Mandos and receive "the Gift of Ilúvatar." I guess Namo would be permitted to keep them in Mandos until the Dagor Dagorath, but again Tolkien gave no hint that this could happen.
I like the idea of Melkor creating his own fauna, similar to apes, gorillas, orangutans, etc. -large apes. He would genetically manipulate these creatures to be able to breed with humans. Their offspring would have the strength and agility of an alpha male gorilla as well as the sentience of mankind, unless Eru Ilúvatar intervened and said he would not permit Melkor to find a back door to giving his evil creatures sentience. Yes, Planet of the Apes makes the best sense to me. Remember, Sauron had THREE AGES (Melkor's prison sentence in Mandos) to perfect the breeding of the Orcs that Melkor had created.
Tolkien said Maiar could return to physical form, albeit with great effort. And also that in those instances when a Maia mated with an incarnate (Melian being the most obvious example) some of their power passed into said offspring, which is one reason Luthien was so mighty for an Elf, while Melian's power--such as her girdle--faded a little bit).
Eru may have allowed the Orcs to be created in this way, knowing some would "breed true" and thus have free will. In the whole history of Middle Earth, it could well be that such Orcs might have caused Morgoth and Sauron all kinds of problems, hindering the Dark Lords' plans. And after death, the souls of these Orcs might well have a path to redemption. I like to believe there is hope even for the Nazgul.
This is one of my favorite videos so far. I also like your personal insight and opinions at the end!
Cheers, it's one of my favourite topics tbh, I find it fascinating to follow Tolkien's thought process
@@GeekZoneMT It's a compelling history of how evil manifested itself in the world!
Men arrived in Middle Earth when the sun arose for the first time. That should be about the time when the Noldor set foot on Valinor under Feanor and when they were attacked by Orcs! To me that means that Orcs were there long BEFORE men, because Melkor would first have to know of their excat location, capture some, then twist those and breed them for a big army AND only then could he have used them to „greet“ Feanor and his kin at their arrival in ME.
Sounds contradictory to the Orcs-Are-Men-Origin but correct me if I am wrong.
I've waited for so long to hear your unique voice again!
Keep up the amazing work and Legendarium content! love from italy
grazie amico :D
Tolkien's wrestling with the problem of evil no doubt mirrors his own religious journey and his inability to ultimately resolve the question rests on the premise that free will comes from an immortal soul grantable only by the creator, Illuvitar. If Morgoth could create beings with free will, does it necessarily follow that evil is stronger than good? I don't think so but it does call into question the omnipotence of The One.
Tolkien had decades to come up with a story that depicted the redemption of an orc or orcs. He never did that. It seems painfully clear that he created them without the possibility of their receiving redemption and then, later in life, felt guilty about dooming a race "to Hell." Too much of the Legendarium would have to change to justify Men as the origin of Orcs.
I'm glad to hear you're back Karl. Take care buddy.
Cheers mate!
I tend to think of it from a more meta perspective.
In Tolkien's translation of Beowulf into modern English, the Old English "Orcneas" & "Odde Deofal"--used to describe Grendel--means "Orcus/Hell Corpse" & "Other Devil", respectively. I choose to interpret this as implying that Grendel is a damned soul who was summoned back into his own body after a transformative stint in Hell. And Tolkien has stated that the Orcs were inspired by Grendel.
I like to think that the origin of the Orcs might blend one of those mentioned with Grendel's own implied origin.
The first Orcs were Elves &/ or Men. They were murdered, their spirits were captured & tormented by Morgoth, & they were reinserted into their own decayed corpses via Necromancy, in which both Dark Lords were known to have been proficient.
This idea reminds me of the Night Creatures created by the Devil Forgemasters in Netflix’s “Castlevania” adaptation. Coincidentally enough, there is even a scene in Castlevania Season 4 between Isaac and one of the creatures, FlysEyes, which brings up some of those same themes that Tolkien himself wrestled with, like the “Always Chaotic Evil” trope’s implications.
Thank you ! Wonderful
Wow! That was by far the most thorough coverage of the origin of Orcs I have seen anywhere. I thought Steven of The Red Book left no stone unturned, but I heard a couple of origins I never knew Tolkien had expressed interest in. I am assuming Karl got all his various origins from Tolkien's own writings.
Glad to see you back! Was happy to see the notification. Yeah, RL can slow us down
Thanks man! I hope to publish at least twice a month
In the Silmarillion time and again on the battles of Beleriand Elves wipe out thousands of orcs to the last critter - that makes the assumption that the orcs are created beings with an antlike mind and just made to inundate their enemy with sheer numbers - not according to a wellthought plan comprehensable to them.
I am very happy to see a video from you again after a long time. While there are many other good LOTR channels on TH-cam, I think yours is the best. It's amazing how much effort you put into each and every video. Peter Jackson's films got me reading The Hobbit and LOTR - yes, I admit I saw the films first. 😊 But your great videos sparked a lot of interest in Tolkien lore aside from the two most famous books a few years ago. I look forward to every new video from you and I'm always excited. Keep it up! Greetings from Germany.
As much as Tolkien had problems with it, the corrupted Elves origins makes the most sense in universe and out universe. But the beast being bred with Elfs and Men could work, but it requires a little more time to flush out.
Thanks karl
You are most welcome my friend!
I missed you, I can finally fall asleep to the lore & ur voice
I think the blending of animals with both Elves and Men, as well as the Maia Orcs thrown in. This explains pretty much everything, including why some Orcs seem capable of rebelling, while offering hope to those creatures who do in fact have a soul. Likewise it introduces another horrible sin to the whole story--the creatures created and used by Sauron and Morgoth were eventually killed with glee and pride by noble individuals such as Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli. Yet they are to be pitied, as victims of an evil beyond their power to resist. That lack of pity on the part of pretty much everyone towards Orcs, while understandable, is a grave sin. And the Dark Lords tempted very good people into committing that act, knowingly or not.
Best of all Tolkien channels 💜💜💜 the meticulous research n facts n canon n non canon theories all brought together. Really grateful & appreciate your work & narration n videos n art n quotes from books to detail. ❤❤❤
Fantastic video
Cheers James!
@@GeekZoneMT It was your videos which got me to read the Silmarillion so than you
Thank you for this. Most other channels just stick to the Elvish origin.
Personally, I’ve always been an all of the above guy with this issue.
The he made in the pits and slimes of the Earth parallel Aule’s fashioning of the Dwarves. The problem is that making and controlling these mindless, lifeless golem were time consuming. So he switched to animals like primates, and used lesser Maiar as orc leaders to control them. From there he had them abduct elves and interbreed them with the primate form orcs to create the first true orcs. Latter he turned to the more numerous and faster breeding humans and other races. By the War of the Rings, they were far more human than elf. Where as in the first age, their mixed elvish heritage was far more apparent.
But that’s just my head canon.
I agree with you I prefer the elvish origin. Because they seemed to be long loved or immortal. And orc chieftains have had the same names because they were the same orc
Hey Karl!! He is back.
Geekzone I have a question for you. Can you provide an in universe explanation for your leap of absence?
Saruman imprisoned me upon his tower and I'm pretty bad at breaking out. I don't get along well with moths.
@@GeekZoneMT I see, and hear I thought you went on an extended mining expedition with the dwarves. My assumption was incorrect it would seem.
@@GeekZoneMT
I would have guessed school or a new, yet-to-be-released Tolkien Video game was too demanding of your time.🤔
Greatt, back with new uploads.
If they truly were elves before I wonder if they remembered their lives.
Perhaps the first Orcs might have remembered their past lives, though I suppose they wouldn't have lived long post transformation :(
They can function in daylight but still hate it?
Have i been an orc this whole time?
Join the club 😂
Missed you
Thanks man, I missed working on the channel :(
I was just wondering, what is the soundtrack that plays at around 2:38? I have heard it throughout multiple videos of yours and am curious to hear how it sounds on its own.
Great video I had no idea there was more to this than the elf-origin. I'm not sure how the origin identified as the most canonical really addresses Tolkien's concerns though. Perhaps I misunderstood, but wouldn't orcs originating from men still be a case of sentient/soul possessing beings becoming irredeemably corrupted and therefore still have the same implications about the power of evil over good?
Yeah I agree. Even though it was the last origin that Tolkien created, I believe that he would have adapted it in the future, since it went against some of his own philosophies
Tolkien becoming more uncanny of Orcish origin would make a fun meme.
Perhaps he should just left it in shrouds of mystery in the first place. Like Ungoliant And Bombadil
HE RETURNS! Good to see another post mate, hope you’ve been doing well.
Cheers buddy, yeah I've been doing great though I've really been busy irl :(
Corrupted Elves work the best, though a mix of corrupted men and maiar spirits works too.
My personal theory is that theGreat Goblin was one of those Maiar-Orcs and that’s how he knows what the blades Glamdring and Orcrist look like.
Well let me properly explain, when a mommy Orc and a Daddy Orc love each other very much, they raided a cabbage farm.
Are there any in depth texts regarding the first orcs and of how they felt battling there once kin(elves)
Eru is a deist god,(like greek primordial god Chaos) him is out of Eä, Valar(smaller gods) then the law officer, Eru just sank Numenor because Valar asked,talk to him.
I like the corrupted elves origin the best but like the points you’ve made it doesn’t leave me set with that. I kind of think of it as a mix of all. One issue though is that Aulë had the ability to give life to the Dwarves he made even though their awakening was postponed by Eru Ilúvatar. So why shouldn’t Morgoth be able to as well? I don’t go with the idea of Melkor being able to create life but rather only able to corrupt and make a mockery of it. How he goes by that I think can vary and therefore be a mix of all that was spoken in the video.
i was just watching the battle of five armies. what i noticed about the Orcs as depicted in the the Movie was that the Orcs had way more stuff solidiers, weapons and variations of weapons than men or elves or dwarves. there were several variations and sizes or breeds of trolls and orcs in the movie. in the battle of helmes deep you can see the different trolls and orcs. in battle of five armies the orcs must have been different because the entire battle takes place during the day and orcs dont like sunlight and a the trolls are supposed to turn to stone in daylight. I kind of admire the orcs and find their army to be interesting disciplined and well armed giving them overwhelming preparation and power. reminds me of the Empire army in Star wars. I found the imperial army to be more interesting the the remnants of the republic because they had so many better ships bases and and variations of craft and well organized. The single mindedness of the Orc army disciplined structure of ranks and single purpose made them interesting and comparable to the Imperial Army in Star wars. in the movie i noticed Saurumon was repsonsible for breeding Iriqoi orcs and it almost seems like he was using mind control over them.
You should upload your content to spotify, i would love to listen to your videos while going to work.
Where do little orcs come from? Snips and snails and fel-beast tails 🎶
So, what happened to Orcs after their death? Elves souls would go to Aman, Noldor souls would be brought to the halls of Mandos. If the 1st Orcs were Elves, their sould would go to Aman (they didn't take part in the uprising of the Noldor), but what about the 2nd generation of the Orcs? Where they still considered Elves?
I think that they are a corrupted creature like men or elves, but some are decedents of a Maiar spirit that took a form of an orc and that they procreate like normal people.
I feel like the origin of the Orcs could plausibly be most, if not all of the possibilities, given how long theyve existed and how many different kinds there were by the War of the Ring.
One of the parts of the Rings of Power series I liked and wanted to see more of was the new character of Adar and his relationship with his orc 'children'. Hopefully it will be expanded on in the second season.
Yeah I found that to be a really interesting addition in the series, would have loved to see more of it
Elves also have the problem of “Fading”…
they become something like a wraith at that point.
Does that just go away with such a mutation?
Are such mutants just something like elf zombies?
To me,
because of the Fading,
it would make more sense that the elves would serve as
more effective slaves
if they became something like a substantially more dangerous form of the Nazgûl.
The orcs seem to be something more like the original 7 Dwarves,
who were said to be carved from stone by Aulë.
It is also known that
the lack of visible female dwarves caused the elves to
mistakenly believe that dwarves were born from stone…
Orcs do seem to be crudely brought forth from a corrupted earthen source…
from the miry clay,as it were,
like Saruman’s Uruk-hai
in the film,
though-
instead of rock,
like the 7 Dwarves.
At any rate,
where would you get so many elves to create all of these orcs
if that’s where they came from?
It seems like there were more orcs than elves.
Humans would be easier to come by,
that’s for sure.
I could see that perhaps SOME elves were tortured and warped into mutants but I just can’t see all
those orcs coming from elves…
yet-
orcs made from humans,dwarves or elves would surely seem to come out differently…
Whatever we prefer to think,
Tolkien decided against the idea
that orcs came from elves
and I,for one,
respect his creative sovereignty…
in all things Middle Earth-
not just where it suits me and my opinions,
I must say.
I lean more to the idea of Orcs existing long before Melkor came to Arda. Just like Nameless things existed without Sauron nor Melkor knowing about them. Melkor stumbled upon them in his journeys and sought to use them for his own goals hence why Orcs don't follow cause they WANT to, but rather FEAR their Masters, hence why they continued to serve Sauron who used the same methods.
This Also explains the existence of Orc woman which were hinted in one of the letters.
I like the main version of the orcs; that they were kidnapped/lured to be mutilated and tortured. It loosely follows some versions of how angels who followed satan became demons. It makes sense that a beautiful creature would be stripped of their beauty and purpose. Only to have their freewill taken and their appearance changed to fit something that serves and represents the dark lord.
9:14 Okay so Orcs, Goblins, Hob-Goblins are all the same, but what about Orcs and Uruk-Hai? Is an Uruk-Hai just an orc with whom had been paid special attention in the breeding to make better (for Sauron) in every possible way?
If some of the Maiar willingly served Morgoth, isn't it possible some of the elves willingly served as well? Maybe the first orcs were rebellious elves, and they helped trap and corrupt others.
I can’t imagine Eru Iluvatar allowing Melkor to preform such an act of violation upon his children. I don’t doubt for a second that had he Melkor done this to the Elves, Eru would have told Melkor if he did this he would be punished swiftly and he would be crushed, bound and his power stripped. He would be made a slave of the elves to be treated with degradation as he would have imposed upon his children.
Men are the true children of eru, also eru doesn't intervene when melkor or sauron are killing the elves
I think its so many mysteries and tolkien left it that way because in a world like this it's ok for imagination.
It also seemed at utumno spirits possibly choosing to look like orcs to lead morgoths orcs better was a possibility. Exactly how did saruman make those half orcs because it seemed it was an artificial womb situation. Then you had evolution something i dont know if tolkien believed in. Did orcs without morgoth or sauron evolve or devolve. Azog and those northern orcs seemed terrifying considering they led by azog and no dark lord. Or the goblins they claim to be lesser orcs?
I love how Warhammer used Tolkiens work, in the Warhammer universe the Orcs are spawns of the earth or mushroom.
Where does it say he poisoned the Two Trees? How did he poison them
The creation of orcs by corruption from elves makes more sense for the lore to have a coherent plot. For example, there would be no War of Powers if orcs were not formed from elves.
That's true. An army of corrupted men would be easier to defeat than an army of corrupted elves. But then you have an evil immortal race. Also, Elves fëar would leave their hroar long before they reached "Orc status." I think Tolkien knew those points were issues in his storytelling.
Hi Karl, where have you been for so long? 🧐
It would make more sense to have them as twisted elves. Look at those ears it makes sense
it gets very confussing if you talk about tolkins writing. I just wanna know the end idea not every idea he had for orcs.
The trees were not poisoned, they were drained of their light by Ungoliant.
We can only imagine in our own fantasy if Tolkien had had another decade or so, even if he was jotting some notes, commentary and letters about his Masterpiece over that time.
Finally some quality stuff.
Vid recomendation: "9 reasons why Sauron is better king than Arrogant"
1. I already have 9 Numenorian kings sharing my vision.
Why stop at 9 reasons Lord Sauron?
"Nine for Mortal Men destined to flourish"
At least he remeber he has a Chennal...
Ive always went with the Origin theory in the published version of the Silmarillion. That is, Orcs were originally corruptions of Elves that Morgoth captured around the time they first woke up, and before the Valar waged war on him and imprisoned him in Mandos halls. But its also very clear that later Orcs have a Race of Man origin. Like the Uruk Hai; perhaps some mix of Elvish, Mannish, and Orc blood combined with Sauron/Sarumans evil magic and will.
I do like the idea of some of the powerful and more intelligent orcs actually being weaker Maiar under Morgoth and later Saurons dominion that took the form of Orcs.
Anyway, because its in both Silmarillion and also in Lord of the Rings itself, I think of most Orcs besides the Uruk Hai and Sarumans Orc-Man hybrids(like many of his spies he sent to Bree and the shire in the scouring of the shire esp) have an Elven origin. But later Orcs would def also have a Race of Man strain like those I mentioned.
Why did the Valor forsake the Orcs.
❤❤❤ .
We know the one from men can not be the truth because orcs existed long before men first woke. Orcs were some of the army the Noldor fought when they arrived in Middle-Earth before the first sunrise! Also we know men and elves can have children so if orcs come from elvish origins then men can have children with orcs to make new races of orcs. Saruman bred orcs with goblin men, which could be children of orcs and men.
Orcs descend from either Elves, or Men, or a combination of the two. This can not be avoided. And all its implications, like the fact that Orcs are redeemable, albeit hard. And that, even if very rarely, good Orcs could, actually, exist.
"This can be avoided?" How?
@@Enerdhil ”This can not be avoided”. A lost word in typing.
how do the orcs reproduce? are there female orcs?
We cant expect God to do all the work
First
You aren't supposed to think about orcs hard.
:'(
the stupid christian mythology angle is annoying as if "beasts" dont have a free will
Hey! Tolkien was a "stupid Christian," who created a fundamentally "Catholic" mythology. If you are stupid enough to call his Legendarium stupid, perhaps you should read something else. Just sayin', pal.
@@Enerdhil and you can ligma bro
@@StaminatorBlader
Nice come back.😂😄🤣😆