A Hobbit ended up "corrupted" to becoming Gollum by the influence of the ring, so it makes sense that something similar happened to many other beings such as Orcs.
I like the idea the were elves who were corrupted by morgoth rather than being made from stone. Gives them a tragic backstory and that they followed morgoth and sauron out of fear. It's one of the few things I liked about the rings of power. Seeing Adar as one of the first corrupted orcs being called father by the other orcs was cool to see. That they followed Adar out of respect and loyalty as apposed to out of fear of morgoth and sauron.
Most definitely want, no, need more Silmarillion lore as much as you can put out please!!! Also love your content and channel thank you guys great work!!
Considering their nature and obedience to Sauron, the shift to the light would be quite extensive, like an exorcism or Gandalf freeing Theoden. Elves, Wizards and maybe Dunedains would stand the best chance of turning them.
Think about the question of the day, if elves could be turned evil, then why couldn’t it be the other way around, orcs getting redemption, evil turning good, if good is suppose to be more powerful then yes, they are redeemable
wow. well, I have only recently gotten into the Silmarillian and the Legendarium through your channel but I had always had the perspective that the orcs were fallen beings like Morgoth and Sauron. There was a choice to follow darkness and in some cases, whole peoples of elves were drawn in when their leaders aligned with the darkness. Now, in this new context of corruption: I'd say there may be redemption for a few who choose such a troubled path. That would make a fine tale for certain.
The original Silmarillion can be found in The Lost Road, parts 1 and 2 as published in the first two volumes of The History of Middle Earth, respectively, and is further elaborated upon in The Creation of Middle Earth where we get "The Earliest Silmarillion" subtitled "Sketch of the Mythology", this is further expounded upon in Morgoth's Ring, (Vol. 5) and War of the Jewels, (Vol. 6). As the script-writer for this video, I'm excited to see how many people are interested in the 'making of' when it comes to the Silmarillion, and it should be a fascinating story, to see how Tolkien's thinking changed, vis a vis The Silmarillion when Strider began to sing 'The Tale of Tinuevial", the Lay of Luthien; this is the moment when the chronicles brought back by Elfwine as told to Pengalov would become the history of the worlds of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings; it was all back-built from Aragorn's singing, while still in the guise of Strider, the song about the mortal man who fell in love with an Elvish princess. Giving us a hint at the ancient world in which our characters live, as well as the marriage of Silmarillion to Lord of the Rings that would impact them both greatly, leading to no end of re-writes. For example, while Tolkien was taking a break between The Two Towers and Return of the King, he wrote most of what we now know of as the Numenor story, or the Akallabeth from the Silmarillion. Hopefully we can do something that is nearly documentary length to really go into how much the Silmarillion meant to Tolkien and how he worked to forge it throughout his entire life, even using Lord of the Rings' popularity as a cudgel in his attempts to publish the works in connexion as one, the Saga of the Jewels and the Ring. The Silmarillion is Tolkien's Ring; forever unfinished, constantly spiraling into ever deeper fractal-esque circles upon itself as he delved deeper and deeper into the languages, lore and histories of his world. Stay tuned and share your favorite videos mate, we'll have something addressing the sketch mythology up soon :)
Two questions: 1) if orcs were derived from elves originally, is it possible that the halls of mados are packed with orc souls? Just chillin for eternity with all the other elf souls? How long is the lifespan of an orc anyway? Feels like very few would die of old age... 2) I've heard many people refer to elves as the first children of eru. What then does that make the valar and maiar? Did they exist before eru and if so, why do they do his bidding if they aren't of his hand?
According to the Powers, they were created by Eru as expressions of his thoughts. Each a variation on a theme. Which leaves us to question Eru's thoughts, as he created Melkor as the greatest of them all. Melkor is Eru's grandiosity and lack of pity?
100% original Silmarilion! I'm thinking, maybe fans should sort of remake a non official version of the Silmarilion, one that includes the full fall of gondolin.
im curious in how their souls were treated in regards of judgment. Men have the gift of death where as Elves are immortal and must wait in the halls of mandos after their physical bodies perish. where are the Orcs in this regard since they were a corruption of the children of illuvitar?
Imo their souls are still elven. Melkor corrupted the phisique of elves , mutated their bodies , but he can't create souls , so to me orcs have elves souls .....and yes . They can be rdeemed.
The most important problem in the thesis that the orcs were created by being transformed from the elves is the uncertainty about the provision of the soul, which is the basis for them to have an independent but evil will from their masters like Melkor and Sauron. I think this is a problem that can be overcome theoretically with Sauron's Necromancer character.
I'd say that the lack of any "redeemed" Orcs is more of a reflection on their circumstances in general and the lack of interest in this idea on the part of the civilized people rather than a fundamental irredeemable nature. TLDR: yes, in theory.
It is suggested somewhere that they were perhaps bred from the Druedain as each regarded the other as traitors and this led to their great hatred for each other.
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Nature of obedience, whether they’re inherently evil or that’s all they know. I suppose it’s more tragic than evil, but then what do they know of good and kindness except that it’s unfamiliar in all places except in their enemies?
Yes. They are far too gone in this life but if any remnants of elven soul persists, maybe that can be saved. But there is also the fact that there is most likely mortal blood in orcs too so maybe the soul is no longer fully elven but closer to a man or animal.
My head cannon is that the bodies (Hroa) were basically created by Melkor similar to how Aule created the dwarfs, possibly using the bodies of Elves as blueprints. But took and extracted the Fea from captured elves, and possibly men and maybe even semi willing Maiar. Corrupting it , fracturing it and using it to give semi-autonomy to many orcs (and trolls I suppose). This Fea was then tied to Middle earth while a piece of it still remained in a living body (orc). Once Morgoth and Sauron were gone any Orcs still left during the fourth no longer procreated so all pieces were then free to return to the halls of Mandos , where they would need plenty of rest to recover. So no living Orc was redeemable, but there Fea certainly was
“The Original Silmarillion” I’ve always believed that the orcs were redeemable, although never in the texts were we given the opportunity to see the possibility of this. I’m in the camp that thinks that orcs were most likely elves corrupted by Morgoth, and as such, since they were not originally made to be evil, they do have the possibility to be good. That being said, it would take a lot of work to do so considering that orca have been living under the influence of some really terrible people and conditions.
I imagine many of the people "enraged" by the introduction of one of the first elves to be corrupted, and the idea that orcs have fea, souls, could do well to watch this. The "canon" of the books isn't canon. Much of it is the bias and experience of the people living through those times; always good to remember that. There waits a mighty tragic arc of new canon of what the *orcs* experienced, and how they were used.
I do believe that Tolkien, being Catholic, would have considered it "unfair" on Orcs once twisted to face the same level of judgement as other elves when they faced Mandos. It is my belief that the souls of orcs would have been given a second life starting over as ordinary elves to be properly judged then. Their lives as orcs would, to my impression, be seen as unfairly tampered with in regards to free will. At least the original corrupted elves. Perhaps those bred from the originals are NOT counted as corrupted children of Eru Iluvitar because they have NO free will. When such died, they would simply have ceased to exist. Considering the jealousy this might engender, their hatred of other races might be more understandable.
To answer the Question: I have read a book, in a series I can't remember the name of(or the book's title either) where the 3rd person pov of the orcs was the narrative, and they were represented as a warrior race with their own wants and so on. This series is outside of Tolkien's realm, and either in an author's note or elsewhere, it was posited that orcs didn't have to be one note characters. It focused on the identity of the orcish people and what they want, and seemed to have no outside influence. If I remember correctly this series wasn't tied to DnD either, I do remember waiting for a connection to Tolkien or DnD and not getting either. I do agree that Orcs can be viewed as something other than irredeemable, with souls, like any other creature(and I'm not just saying that because I made my last character a half orc paladin of Shelyn(Pathfinder deity, believes in the inner beauty of all things)
We need to think at the roman-catholic worldview of the Professor. Orcs descended from either corrupted Elves, or corrupted Men, or a combination of both, because evil can not create. They are pretty similar in many ways with the Children of Illuvatar. This would made them redeemable, albeit hard. Slaying them would be, of course, a tragedy. Yet, as rare exceptions, good hearted Orcs are possible, because, in the world of the Professor, as in the real world, the Children of Illuvatar have the power of changing making their own destiny, even against ”fate”.
6:45 "and the most hateful to Ilúvatar." As I was listening and not reading the transcript I got a little confused. You read out "and the most hateful OF Ilúvatar."
I think if they are able to be corrupted and made evil, they may be able to be purified and made good. But I dont think they can by choice, and I dont think they can without other changes as well.
I seem to remember a quote from a letter of Tolkien's stating "Orcs were naturally evil, but not irredeemably evil." I remember he went on to say that orcs can redeem themselves if they truly want to. I'd to think that after gain freedom from Melkor and Sauron, they were able to at least achieve some level of peaceful coexistence with the other races.
Well well said! My view has been, that Orcs might have been, the forced cross-breeding of Elf and Dwarf. As it is utterly unknown IF the Khazad could breed with non-Khazads. Orcs sure seem to share the traits of both species. And naturally, none of this would be known to anyone, BUT Eru. Morgoth - once aware of Aule's children, would have been UTERRLY enraged! Aule could create - but NOT Melkor??? Force breeding Eru's first born, and adopted children - and creating a hybrid that serves him sure fits Morgoth. And Sauron too. Sauron had a hand in all of this breeding orcs while Morgoth was in chains for 2 whole ages. And we know he first served Aule. And later, Sauron "improved" the orcs and trolls still more. Saruman "the white" (under Sauron's aid - like with the rings of power?) also breed half breeds of orcs and humans.
Hay guys great vid on the Oregon's of the orcs and think they could be redeemed or there soul at least. Course they are forest to serve the dark Lord out of fear not louilty
If an orc is a corrupted elf, be it an original elf, or the offspring, would the soul not still be that of an elf, whatever the morality and deformity and on the death of the body, go to the Halls of Mandos, where they could heal and be 're born, uncorupted and an enemy of there former tormentor? Considering the number of orcs that we see, that wouldn't half flood those blessed Halls. If an orc is a corrupted human, then it could be assumed, I guess, that there soul would face the same fate as men and whatever judgment such souls face, and maybe there is room for the state of there forced corruption weighed against the evils they may have been forced to, or enjoyed. No idea these are mad ramblings, but they have been in my head for many years.
Tolkien gave his creations a Fëa and Hröa, spirit and body where in good Christian tradition it is Soul, Spirit and Body.... the last to can be changed where the soul is unchangable and eternal as been given by God. By not including a soul in the Christian sense, Tolkien left the Spirit or Fëa as open for change as the Hröa or body. Corruption of the spirit by Morgoth could therefore be beyond Redemption, because Redemption is a matter for the Soul, something neither Elves or Orcs had in Tolkiens lore. When Morgoth did his job well, the capacity of love and remorse was pretty corrumpted away from the Fëa of his victims. So no redemption for Orcs.
Tolkien's Orcs have been subject of criticism of racism. Tolkien described Orcs as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, swallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types".
I think John Ronald Reuel wanted Orcs to be possessed of a soul and thus redeemable, at least in potentia. If this is so, it makes the sins of Morgoth and Sauron that much more abhorrent; but it also means that the orcs are deserving of pity. And I don't think there's any member of the Fellowship who pities hhe orcs at any point. The hobbits are mostly afraid of orcs; while Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Boromir seem to loathe them. I'm not sure that Gandalf feels any ill-will towards the orcs, but he's an absolute orc-killing machine when circumstances call for it. Also, if orcs are redeemable, then so, too, should be trolls, and other servants of the dark lords, including dragons, balrogs and the Nine. But if balrogs are redeemable, then so, too, should be Sauron himself, because they are both of the Maiar, albeit of unequal status. It's a thorny one. My own feeling, based on the actions of the various creatures in the Hobbit, LotR and the Silmarillion, is that none of the creations of Morgoth are redeemable; not even in principle. Orcs and dragons appear to delight in their wickedness. It's hard to tell with balrogs, because we have little or no dialogue from them. And trolls appear to be dull-witted to the point of not being able to comprehend the choice inherent in their behaviours. The only dialogue we hear from trolls is the conversation from The Hobbit. They utter no recognisable speech in LotR, and (IIRC) barely feature at all in the Silmarillion.
If orcs really are corrupted elves then their soul should join the halls of Mandos and be judged. JRRT never mentioned some orc section of the halls of Mandos If they are redeemable then we should have at least ONE example of an orc having tried to be good, and we don’t. Unfortunately because it would be really cool to see any bad guy turning into a good one in the Legendarium. There is none I guess professor JRRT didn’t find a satisfactory solution for this problem, probably because of his very polarized view of the world as a catholic: orcs are “devils”, so 100% bad, while elves or men can be good but are subject to temptation
I don't think its a "problem"...I think its perfect. Today we still ask these same questions. Are Russians following Putin by choice or are they being forced? Are they being twisted into something they originally were not? So why shouldn't we ask that question of the orcs?
I am Russian. I have been living in England for the past 24 years. I despise all conflict and so do many Russian people. Yes their are some Russian people who are hardcore Putin supporters. But they are far and few between if you read the papers you would see the protests against the war in Ukraine. A lot of soldiers have committed suicide rather then slaughter inoccent people and some were shot and killed by their own generals when they refused to fight. Putin is just another Stalin ruling his people through fear and deceptive lies.
You can say that about any country people/government. Look how much the US meddlesome forign policy is, does that make every US citizen 100% involved too?
@@stevechitty5861 I guess that proves the "choice" over the "inherently evil" question then? Not that we ever seen Orcs do any of these things....but would Morgoth/Sauron have let us known? Probably not? lol
I don't get how this is 'authoritative.' We have no idea if anyone modified the works after Bilbo; we don't have a full chain of custody, so the framing device is the same. It is a mythology. Nothing is definitive
I'm surprised Tolkien didn't take the route of borrowing from the Bible and make the orcs a result of fallen Maiar mating with elves like the origin of the Nephillim from pre-flood Genesis. That is what I intend for the origin of the orcs in my own fantasy story: they come from the mating of fallen angels with elves. I haven't decided if there will be a second fallen race of fallen angels and men. Maybe I'll make them giants, not true giants but like 11/12 foot men or something. Or I might have the race of corrupted men had been wiped out long before the story starts place
From a logical perspective I think Tolkiens description of the Orcs reflected his own visions on his current world at that time in his life. Orcs perhaps being his embodyment of criminals and how he maybe saw those people: Maybe he initially thought that criminals were just bad people. (created by Melko as in his earliest works) Then he came to the realization that those people used to be good but got malformed by bad/traumatic experiences in their lives. (Orcs being corrupted by Melkor) Then in the end of his life he realized that Christ forgives everyone who choses for Him and His ways. And allthough people may do bad things they remain people who can make their own choices, and they can still choose for Go(o)d. Therefore that anyone can be forgiven. (His later empathy towards orcs; as they can be redeemed) This would make the most logical sense to me at least
There a is debate as to whether Orcs are "flesh and blood dolls/robots" or biological constructs - Homunculus made by Morgoth. There was a version in History of Middle Earth in which Orcs would follow the Gollem concept from Jewish folklore: "These Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred. Melkor bred the Orcs (here called Orkor) 'in envy and mockery of the Eldar' from Quendi enslaved in the east of Middle-earth before ever Orome came upon them. It is explicit ($45) that Melkor could make nothing that had life of his own since his rebellion; History of Middle Earth" "The earliest stories of golems date to early Judaism. In the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 38b), Adam was initially created as a golem (גולם) when his dust was "kneaded into a shapeless husk." Like Adam, all golems are created from mud. They were a creation of those who were very holy and close to God. A very holy person was one who strove to approach God, and in that pursuit would gain some of God's wisdom and power. One of these powers was the creation of life. However, no matter how holy a person became, a being created by that person would be but a shadow of one created by God." "Early on, it was noted that the main disability of the golem was its inability to speak. Sanhedrin 65b describes Rava creating a man (gavra). He felt the man to Rav Zeira. Rav Zeira spoke to him, but he did not answer. Rav Zeira said, "You were created by the magicians; return to your dust." "During the Middle Ages, passages from the Sefer Yetzirah (Book of Creation) were studied as a means to attain the mystical ability to create and animate a golem, although there is little in the writings of Jewish mysticism supports this belief. It was believed that golems could be activated by an ecstatic experience induced by the ritualistic use of various letters of the Hebrew Alphabet." "In some tales, (for example those of the Golem of Chelm and the Golem of Prague) a golem is inscribed with Hebrew words that keep it animated. The word emet (אמת, "truth" in the Hebrew language) written on a golem's forehead is one such example. The golem could then be deactivated by removing the aleph (א) in emet, thus changing the inscription from 'truth' to 'death' (met מת, "dead"). Legend and folklore suggest that golems could be activated by writing a specific series of letters on parchment and placing the paper in a golem's mouth." The biggest tragedy is if the Orcs follow a schedule pre-set by Melkor. If They possess filaments of Morgoth's evil soul/essence and are "the walking evil" made of flesh. Automata similar to "Aulë's dolls". "Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?"
Regarding Tolkien vs publishers, stubbornness etc.... Sorry. I don't care if he was right or wrong. It's Tolkien. The publishers need to stfu and listen to the professor. We got kind of robbed of great works from Tolkien by the publishers. They might argue his demands were unreasonable.... To which I reply... Don't care. It's Tolkien. You know, one of the best English language authors of the last few centuries... They should've just rolled with it.
For the Orcs, IMHO, redemption would be possible. However no Orcs would seek it. They live their lives in brutal servitude and that is all that they know. Whether it is to a dark master or to leaders of their own kind they are highly militarized. Sure there are females and off spring, but love in our concept does not exist. Looking at the world through their eyes, if they saw Melkor as their one and only God (where Sauron would be their equivalent of Jesus, Abraham, or Mohammed) , then wouldn't you do exactly as your God commands, of course you would. They do what they do out of a deeply held sense of duty. As a Christian I could see how the Professor would wrestle with this concept, "the opposite view of life". "Good" and "Right" are not the same ideal. "Right" in the eyes and hearts of a race that has only their own ways, would not appear 'Good' to those opposed to them. The Orc vision of "Good" is (among other ideals) doing your duty and bearing young. Noble concepts at their root but their methods are very dark and perverse. However they would not se it that way,
The idea that an orc is a corrupted elf implies that maybe they can be redeemed. Tolkien himself subjects them to wholesale slaughter and the face of an orc means its instant death if seen by an elf (i.e., Thranduil's reaction to one taken prisoner as an example). However, once the war is over and Sauron is dead wouldn't it be a worthwhile experiment to see if the free orcs might make different life choices if not threatened by instant death by mere act of simply showing up.
I prefer the idea that they aren't redeemable. It's a very modern MCU influenced idea that the 'bad guys' should have redeeming qualities. I want to think, Tolkien, who wrote inspired by his direct involvement with the war and having been raised in a Christian environment would have taken greater inspiration from the idea of the Devil and his minions versus God and his angels. One must win over the other. Yet what seems to matter most is peace.
How many times does the same thing need to be discussed across all of these copycat channels? Tolkien wrote what, a couple of lines on the subject? Yes we get it. Morgoth corrupted everything he could get his hands on, including elves.
So true about copy cating JRRT. Book wise right now my 2nd fav fantasy: Wheel of Time series esp when it comes to male Aiel channelers that are corrupted/ turned by The Dark One. Thank you, JRRT, inspiring generations of creep- me- out fantasy writers.
A Hobbit ended up "corrupted" to becoming Gollum by the influence of the ring, so it makes sense that something similar happened to many other beings such as Orcs.
Yes please dive deeper in the Silmarillion! One of the greatest lore novels to date!
I definitely would love to see more historical content. The original Silmarillion would be awesome.
I like the idea the were elves who were corrupted by morgoth rather than being made from stone. Gives them a tragic backstory and that they followed morgoth and sauron out of fear. It's one of the few things I liked about the rings of power. Seeing Adar as one of the first corrupted orcs being called father by the other orcs was cool to see. That they followed Adar out of respect and loyalty as apposed to out of fear of morgoth and sauron.
Most definitely want, no, need more Silmarillion lore as much as you can put out please!!! Also love your content and channel thank you guys great work!!
Considering their nature and obedience to Sauron, the shift to the light would be quite extensive, like an exorcism or Gandalf freeing Theoden.
Elves, Wizards and maybe Dunedains would stand the best chance of turning them.
I'd like to hear some more on The Silmarillion, please. Thanks very much
The Original Silmarillion! 🙌🏻 Yes please! Also, thank you for all the content, you guys are great.
Thank you! 😁
Happy Halloween 🎃 🤪
Another insightful episode thanks lads
Think about the question of the day, if elves could be turned evil, then why couldn’t it be the other way around, orcs getting redemption, evil turning good, if good is suppose to be more powerful then yes, they are redeemable
The Original Silmarillion. Very interesting stuff, this.
wow. well, I have only recently gotten into the Silmarillian and the Legendarium through your channel but I had always had the perspective that the orcs were fallen beings like Morgoth and Sauron. There was a choice to follow darkness and in some cases, whole peoples of elves were drawn in when their leaders aligned with the darkness.
Now, in this new context of corruption: I'd say there may be redemption for a few who choose such a troubled path. That would make a fine tale for certain.
The original Silmarillion can be found in The Lost Road, parts 1 and 2 as published in the first two volumes of The History of Middle Earth, respectively, and is further elaborated upon in The Creation of Middle Earth where we get "The Earliest Silmarillion" subtitled "Sketch of the Mythology", this is further expounded upon in Morgoth's Ring, (Vol. 5) and War of the Jewels, (Vol. 6). As the script-writer for this video, I'm excited to see how many people are interested in the 'making of' when it comes to the Silmarillion, and it should be a fascinating story, to see how Tolkien's thinking changed, vis a vis The Silmarillion when Strider began to sing 'The Tale of Tinuevial", the Lay of Luthien; this is the moment when the chronicles brought back by Elfwine as told to Pengalov would become the history of the worlds of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings; it was all back-built from Aragorn's singing, while still in the guise of Strider, the song about the mortal man who fell in love with an Elvish princess. Giving us a hint at the ancient world in which our characters live, as well as the marriage of Silmarillion to Lord of the Rings that would impact them both greatly, leading to no end of re-writes. For example, while Tolkien was taking a break between The Two Towers and Return of the King, he wrote most of what we now know of as the Numenor story, or the Akallabeth from the Silmarillion.
Hopefully we can do something that is nearly documentary length to really go into how much the Silmarillion meant to Tolkien and how he worked to forge it throughout his entire life, even using Lord of the Rings' popularity as a cudgel in his attempts to publish the works in connexion as one, the Saga of the Jewels and the Ring. The Silmarillion is Tolkien's Ring; forever unfinished, constantly spiraling into ever deeper fractal-esque circles upon itself as he delved deeper and deeper into the languages, lore and histories of his world.
Stay tuned and share your favorite videos mate, we'll have something addressing the sketch mythology up soon :)
Two questions:
1) if orcs were derived from elves originally, is it possible that the halls of mados are packed with orc souls? Just chillin for eternity with all the other elf souls? How long is the lifespan of an orc anyway? Feels like very few would die of old age...
2) I've heard many people refer to elves as the first children of eru. What then does that make the valar and maiar? Did they exist before eru and if so, why do they do his bidding if they aren't of his hand?
According to the Powers, they were created by Eru as expressions of his thoughts. Each a variation on a theme.
Which leaves us to question Eru's thoughts, as he created Melkor as the greatest of them all. Melkor is Eru's grandiosity and lack of pity?
Original Silmarillion video please!!
Love the video on the orcs! Happy Halloween and Blessed Samhain🎃🤘🖤🧡😈
100% original Silmarilion! I'm thinking, maybe fans should sort of remake a non official version of the Silmarilion, one that includes the full fall of gondolin.
Including what happened on the *other side* of the wars.
This topic always leaves a dark pit in my stomach
Please More of the older silmarillion. I Love it when you take us with into the Deep digging of the Lore 👍🏻
That’s how to open a lord of the rings video right there. At least, for the darker setting
I think Orcs have to be considered redeemable. Also, would love a video on the original Silmarillion!
im curious in how their souls were treated in regards of judgment. Men have the gift of death where as Elves are immortal and must wait in the halls of mandos after their physical bodies perish. where are the Orcs in this regard since they were a corruption of the children of illuvitar?
Imo their souls are still elven. Melkor corrupted the phisique of elves , mutated their bodies , but he can't create souls , so to me orcs have elves souls .....and yes . They can be rdeemed.
Well.. I think they can just fall into the category of animals or wargs, or Beorn like folk.
I think that the orcs do fall into the category of having a soul and that they can be redeemed
The most important problem in the thesis that the orcs were created by being transformed from the elves is the uncertainty about the provision of the soul, which is the basis for them to have an independent but evil will from their masters like Melkor and Sauron. I think this is a problem that can be overcome theoretically with Sauron's Necromancer character.
Happy halloween!
Well... when a mommy orc and a daddy orc love each other they will hug each other in a very bouncy way...
my original title for this script was "where do baby orcs come from?" and started in just this way 😂
I’d like to know more about the early versions of the Silmarillion
I'd say that the lack of any "redeemed" Orcs is more of a reflection on their circumstances in general and the lack of interest in this idea on the part of the civilized people rather than a fundamental irredeemable nature. TLDR: yes, in theory.
It is suggested somewhere that they were perhaps bred from the Druedain as each regarded the other as traitors and this led to their great hatred for each other.
Have a happy Reformation Day
original Silmarillion! I find it fascinating to see how organically the legendarium evolved & the different thoughts/themes Tolkien put there
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Nature of obedience, whether they’re inherently evil or that’s all they know. I suppose it’s more tragic than evil, but then what do they know of good and kindness except that it’s unfamiliar in all places except in their enemies?
Orcs are not redeemable in the fashion of earthly things, but their souls are illuvatar's business.
Yes. They are far too gone in this life but if any remnants of elven soul persists, maybe that can be saved. But there is also the fact that there is most likely mortal blood in orcs too so maybe the soul is no longer fully elven but closer to a man or animal.
The OG Silm!
they can function in daylight yet they still hate it
have i been an orc this whole time?
The original Silmarillion
My head cannon is that the bodies (Hroa) were basically created by Melkor similar to how Aule created the dwarfs, possibly using the bodies of Elves as blueprints. But took and extracted the Fea from captured elves, and possibly men and maybe even semi willing Maiar. Corrupting it , fracturing it and using it to give semi-autonomy to many orcs (and trolls I suppose).
This Fea was then tied to Middle earth while a piece of it still remained in a living body (orc).
Once Morgoth and Sauron were gone any Orcs still left during the fourth no longer procreated so all pieces were then free to return to the halls of Mandos , where they would need plenty of rest to recover.
So no living Orc was redeemable, but there Fea certainly was
“The Original Silmarillion”
I’ve always believed that the orcs were redeemable, although never in the texts were we given the opportunity to see the possibility of this. I’m in the camp that thinks that orcs were most likely elves corrupted by Morgoth, and as such, since they were not originally made to be evil, they do have the possibility to be good.
That being said, it would take a lot of work to do so considering that orca have been living under the influence of some really terrible people and conditions.
I imagine many of the people "enraged" by the introduction of one of the first elves to be corrupted, and the idea that orcs have fea, souls, could do well to watch this. The "canon" of the books isn't canon. Much of it is the bias and experience of the people living through those times; always good to remember that.
There waits a mighty tragic arc of new canon of what the *orcs* experienced, and how they were used.
I do believe that Tolkien, being Catholic, would have considered it "unfair" on Orcs once twisted to face the same level of judgement as other elves when they faced Mandos. It is my belief that the souls of orcs would have been given a second life starting over as ordinary elves to be properly judged then. Their lives as orcs would, to my impression, be seen as unfairly tampered with in regards to free will.
At least the original corrupted elves. Perhaps those bred from the originals are NOT counted as corrupted children of Eru Iluvitar because they have NO free will. When such died, they would simply have ceased to exist. Considering the jealousy this might engender, their hatred of other races might be more understandable.
Bring it on about the Original Silmarillion. All new information is welcome.
To answer the Question: I have read a book, in a series I can't remember the name of(or the book's title either) where the 3rd person pov of the orcs was the narrative, and they were represented as a warrior race with their own wants and so on. This series is outside of Tolkien's realm, and either in an author's note or elsewhere, it was posited that orcs didn't have to be one note characters. It focused on the identity of the orcish people and what they want, and seemed to have no outside influence. If I remember correctly this series wasn't tied to DnD either, I do remember waiting for a connection to Tolkien or DnD and not getting either. I do agree that Orcs can be viewed as something other than irredeemable, with souls, like any other creature(and I'm not just saying that because I made my last character a half orc paladin of Shelyn(Pathfinder deity, believes in the inner beauty of all things)
And therefore, if given enough time and incentive, Orcs can be given a place of their own in a post Sauron middle earth
We need to think at the roman-catholic worldview of the Professor. Orcs descended from either corrupted Elves, or corrupted Men, or a combination of both, because evil can not create. They are pretty similar in many ways with the Children of Illuvatar. This would made them redeemable, albeit hard. Slaying them would be, of course, a tragedy. Yet, as rare exceptions, good hearted Orcs are possible, because, in the world of the Professor, as in the real world, the Children of Illuvatar have the power of changing making their own destiny, even against ”fate”.
6:45 "and the most hateful to Ilúvatar." As I was listening and not reading the transcript I got a little confused. You read out "and the most hateful OF Ilúvatar."
I think if they are able to be corrupted and made evil, they may be able to be purified and made good. But I dont think they can by choice, and I dont think they can without other changes as well.
the original silmarillion
I seem to remember a quote from a letter of Tolkien's stating "Orcs were naturally evil, but not irredeemably evil." I remember he went on to say that orcs can redeem themselves if they truly want to. I'd to think that after gain freedom from Melkor and Sauron, they were able to at least achieve some level of peaceful coexistence with the other races.
Well well said! My view has been, that Orcs might have been, the forced cross-breeding of Elf and Dwarf. As it is utterly unknown IF the Khazad could breed with non-Khazads. Orcs sure seem to share the traits of both species. And naturally, none of this would be known to anyone, BUT Eru. Morgoth - once aware of Aule's children, would have been UTERRLY enraged! Aule could create - but NOT Melkor??? Force breeding Eru's first born, and adopted children - and creating a hybrid that serves him sure fits Morgoth. And Sauron too. Sauron had a hand in all of this breeding orcs while Morgoth was in chains for 2 whole ages. And we know he first served Aule. And later, Sauron "improved" the orcs and trolls still more. Saruman "the white" (under Sauron's aid - like with the rings of power?) also breed half breeds of orcs and humans.
The original silmarillion! I'd love to see the difference in them.
Melko=melkor
Elves=gnomes 😆
original go for it !!!!
Hi guys.
I have a Hobbit theory video that is interesting.
Did Bilbo lead to the deaths of dwarves because he didn't give up the Arkenstone?
The original Silmarillion please.👍🏾
But we have many different types of Orcs, Orcs of Gundabad, Goblins of Moria, Uruk kai from Isenguard, etc, which are which and where from?
The Original Silmarillion please!!
Original Silmarillion pls?
First comment and first view. Awesome!!
The Origional Silmarillion!
Hay guys great vid on the Oregon's of the orcs and think they could be redeemed or there soul at least. Course they are forest to serve the dark Lord out of fear not louilty
We always see Tolkien as an old man. I don't believe I've ever seen a picture of him as a young or younger man. Is there any?
Orcs are as redeemable as Gollum is. I think it actually works perfectly.
The Original Silmarillion!
Original Silmarillion please!
If an orc is a corrupted elf, be it an original elf, or the offspring, would the soul not still be that of an elf, whatever the morality and deformity and on the death of the body, go to the Halls of Mandos, where they could heal and be 're born, uncorupted and an enemy of there former tormentor? Considering the number of orcs that we see, that wouldn't half flood those blessed Halls.
If an orc is a corrupted human, then it could be assumed, I guess, that there soul would face the same fate as men and whatever judgment such souls face, and maybe there is room for the state of there forced corruption weighed against the evils they may have been forced to, or enjoyed.
No idea these are mad ramblings, but they have been in my head for many years.
Orcs truly are the innocents in Middle Earth 🎃
Tolkien gave his creations a Fëa and Hröa, spirit and body
where in good Christian tradition it is Soul, Spirit and Body.... the last to can be changed where the soul is unchangable and eternal as been given by God.
By not including a soul in the Christian sense, Tolkien left the Spirit or Fëa as open for change as the Hröa or body. Corruption of the spirit by Morgoth could therefore be beyond Redemption, because Redemption is a matter for the Soul, something neither Elves or Orcs had in Tolkiens lore.
When Morgoth did his job well, the capacity of love and remorse was pretty corrumpted away from the Fëa of his victims.
So no redemption for Orcs.
Is there a single story of a single orc that became redeemed?
The original Silmarillion!
Tolkien's Orcs have been subject of criticism of racism. Tolkien described Orcs as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, swallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types".
The Original Silmarillion ;)
I think John Ronald Reuel wanted Orcs to be possessed of a soul and thus redeemable, at least in potentia. If this is so, it makes the sins of Morgoth and Sauron that much more abhorrent; but it also means that the orcs are deserving of pity. And I don't think there's any member of the Fellowship who pities hhe orcs at any point. The hobbits are mostly afraid of orcs; while Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli and Boromir seem to loathe them. I'm not sure that Gandalf feels any ill-will towards the orcs, but he's an absolute orc-killing machine when circumstances call for it.
Also, if orcs are redeemable, then so, too, should be trolls, and other servants of the dark lords, including dragons, balrogs and the Nine. But if balrogs are redeemable, then so, too, should be Sauron himself, because they are both of the Maiar, albeit of unequal status.
It's a thorny one.
My own feeling, based on the actions of the various creatures in the Hobbit, LotR and the Silmarillion, is that none of the creations of Morgoth are redeemable; not even in principle. Orcs and dragons appear to delight in their wickedness. It's hard to tell with balrogs, because we have little or no dialogue from them. And trolls appear to be dull-witted to the point of not being able to comprehend the choice inherent in their behaviours. The only dialogue we hear from trolls is the conversation from The Hobbit. They utter no recognisable speech in LotR, and (IIRC) barely feature at all in the Silmarillion.
The original Silmarillion.
The original Silmarilllion, yes please.
The Original Silmirillion
Apparently, the Orcs were sent to live in London for a bit LOL
If they did come from elves, then they would still be children of Illuvitar.
If orcs really are corrupted elves then their soul should join the halls of Mandos and be judged. JRRT never mentioned some orc section of the halls of Mandos
If they are redeemable then we should have at least ONE example of an orc having tried to be good, and we don’t.
Unfortunately because it would be really cool to see any bad guy turning into a good one in the Legendarium. There is none
I guess professor JRRT didn’t find a satisfactory solution for this problem, probably because of his very polarized view of the world as a catholic: orcs are “devils”, so 100% bad, while elves or men can be good but are subject to temptation
Was Ted Bundy redeemable?
I don't think its a "problem"...I think its perfect. Today we still ask these same questions. Are Russians following Putin by choice or are they being forced? Are they being twisted into something they originally were not? So why shouldn't we ask that question of the orcs?
I am Russian. I have been living in England for the past 24 years. I despise all conflict and so do many Russian people. Yes their are some Russian people who are hardcore Putin supporters. But they are far and few between if you read the papers you would see the protests against the war in Ukraine. A lot of soldiers have committed suicide rather then slaughter inoccent people and some were shot and killed by their own generals when they refused to fight. Putin is just another Stalin ruling his people through fear and deceptive lies.
You can say that about any country people/government. Look how much the US meddlesome forign policy is, does that make every US citizen 100% involved too?
@@stevechitty5861 I guess that proves the "choice" over the "inherently evil" question then? Not that we ever seen Orcs do any of these things....but would Morgoth/Sauron have let us known? Probably not? lol
I believe that Orcs are redeemable, but just like Frodo; the only redemption can be met via the works of God. Not even the Valar can fix them.
How longe do Orcs live for and if the came from elves are they immoral like the elves.
No hope for the orcs
I don't get how this is 'authoritative.' We have no idea if anyone modified the works after Bilbo; we don't have a full chain of custody, so the framing device is the same. It is a mythology. Nothing is definitive
Orcs, morcs and porcs.
The original please!
they definitely couldn't stay stone cuz of the dwarves
Video 194
I'm surprised Tolkien didn't take the route of borrowing from the Bible and make the orcs a result of fallen Maiar mating with elves like the origin of the Nephillim from pre-flood Genesis. That is what I intend for the origin of the orcs in my own fantasy story: they come from the mating of fallen angels with elves. I haven't decided if there will be a second fallen race of fallen angels and men. Maybe I'll make them giants, not true giants but like 11/12 foot men or something. Or I might have the race of corrupted men had been wiped out long before the story starts place
From a logical perspective I think Tolkiens description of the Orcs reflected his own visions on his current world at that time in his life.
Orcs perhaps being his embodyment of criminals and how he maybe saw those people:
Maybe he initially thought that criminals were just bad people. (created by Melko as in his earliest works)
Then he came to the realization that those people used to be good but got malformed by bad/traumatic experiences in their lives. (Orcs being corrupted by Melkor)
Then in the end of his life he realized that Christ forgives everyone who choses for Him and His ways. And allthough people may do bad things they remain people who can make their own choices, and they can still choose for Go(o)d. Therefore that anyone can be forgiven. (His later empathy towards orcs; as they can be redeemed)
This would make the most logical sense to me at least
There a is debate as to whether Orcs are "flesh and blood dolls/robots" or biological constructs - Homunculus made by Morgoth. There was a version in History of Middle Earth in which Orcs would follow the Gollem concept from Jewish folklore:
"These Orcs Morgoth made in envy and mockery of the Elves, and they were made of stone, but their hearts of hatred. Melkor bred the Orcs (here called Orkor) 'in envy and mockery of the Eldar' from Quendi enslaved in the east of Middle-earth before ever Orome came upon them. It is explicit ($45) that Melkor could make nothing that had life of his own since his rebellion; History of Middle Earth"
"The earliest stories of golems date to early Judaism. In the Talmud (Tractate Sanhedrin 38b), Adam was initially created as a golem (גולם) when his dust was "kneaded into a shapeless husk." Like Adam, all golems are created from mud. They were a creation of those who were very holy and close to God. A very holy person was one who strove to approach God, and in that pursuit would gain some of God's wisdom and power. One of these powers was the creation of life. However, no matter how holy a person became, a being created by that person would be but a shadow of one created by God."
"Early on, it was noted that the main disability of the golem was its inability to speak. Sanhedrin 65b describes Rava creating a man (gavra). He felt the man to Rav Zeira. Rav Zeira spoke to him, but he did not answer. Rav Zeira said, "You were created by the magicians; return to your dust."
"During the Middle Ages, passages from the Sefer Yetzirah (Book of Creation) were studied as a means to attain the mystical ability to create and animate a golem, although there is little in the writings of Jewish mysticism supports this belief. It was believed that golems could be activated by an ecstatic experience induced by the ritualistic use of various letters of the Hebrew Alphabet."
"In some tales, (for example those of the Golem of Chelm and the Golem of Prague) a golem is inscribed with Hebrew words that keep it animated. The word emet (אמת, "truth" in the Hebrew language) written on a golem's forehead is one such example. The golem could then be deactivated by removing the aleph (א) in emet, thus changing the inscription from 'truth' to 'death' (met מת, "dead"). Legend and folklore suggest that golems could be activated by writing a specific series of letters on parchment and placing the paper in a golem's mouth."
The biggest tragedy is if the Orcs follow a schedule pre-set by Melkor. If They possess filaments of Morgoth's evil soul/essence and are "the walking evil" made of flesh. Automata similar to "Aulë's dolls".
"Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?"
Regarding Tolkien vs publishers, stubbornness etc.... Sorry. I don't care if he was right or wrong. It's Tolkien. The publishers need to stfu and listen to the professor. We got kind of robbed of great works from Tolkien by the publishers.
They might argue his demands were unreasonable.... To which I reply... Don't care. It's Tolkien. You know, one of the best English language authors of the last few centuries... They should've just rolled with it.
I'm glad society did what jrr. Tolkien could never do... make it so orcs don't have to be pure evil
I thought the orcs came from their father, Adar. #TBS #thebrokenshills
For the Orcs, IMHO, redemption would be possible. However no Orcs would seek it. They live their lives in brutal servitude and that is all that they know. Whether it is to a dark master or to leaders of their own kind they are highly militarized. Sure there are females and off spring, but love in our concept does not exist. Looking at the world through their eyes, if they saw Melkor as their one and only God (where Sauron would be their equivalent of Jesus, Abraham, or Mohammed) , then wouldn't you do exactly as your God commands, of course you would. They do what they do out of a deeply held sense of duty. As a Christian I could see how the Professor would wrestle with this concept, "the opposite view of life". "Good" and "Right" are not the same ideal. "Right" in the eyes and hearts of a race that has only their own ways, would not appear 'Good' to those opposed to them. The Orc vision of "Good" is (among other ideals) doing your duty and bearing young. Noble concepts at their root but their methods are very dark and perverse. However they would not se it that way,
The idea that an orc is a corrupted elf implies that maybe they can be redeemed. Tolkien himself subjects them to wholesale slaughter and the face of an orc means its instant death if seen by an elf (i.e., Thranduil's reaction to one taken prisoner as an example). However, once the war is over and Sauron is dead wouldn't it be a worthwhile experiment to see if the free orcs might make different life choices if not threatened by instant death by mere act of simply showing up.
The original.
Original sil
I prefer the idea that they aren't redeemable. It's a very modern MCU influenced idea that the 'bad guys' should have redeeming qualities. I want to think, Tolkien, who wrote inspired by his direct involvement with the war and having been raised in a Christian environment would have taken greater inspiration from the idea of the Devil and his minions versus God and his angels. One must win over the other. Yet what seems to matter most is peace.
According to ukraine, the origin of orc is russia.
How many times does the same thing need to be discussed across all of these copycat channels? Tolkien wrote what, a couple of lines on the subject? Yes we get it. Morgoth corrupted everything he could get his hands on, including elves.
So true about copy cating JRRT. Book wise right now my 2nd fav fantasy: Wheel of Time series esp when it comes to male Aiel channelers that are corrupted/ turned by The Dark One.
Thank you, JRRT, inspiring generations of creep- me- out fantasy writers.
Why is it that you never hear about or see any orc women or children ?
Why do you pronounce 'e' as 'æ'? It's distracting!
The original Silmarillion
The original silmarillion