Mozart’s Most Motivically Masterful Minuet: K. 464 String Quartet in A, Mvt. 2
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Richard Atkinson discusses Mozart’s most motivically masterful minuet: the second movement of the K. 464 String Quartet in A major. This is a fair use educational commentary that uses excerpts from the following recordings/performances:
Mozart - String Quartet in A, K. 464:
Quatuor Mosaïques
Haydn - String Quartet in D minor, Op. 76 No. 2:
Quatuor Mosaïques
Beethoven - String Quartet in A, Op. 18 No. 5:
Quatuor Mosaïques
Mozart - Serenade in C minor, K. 388:
Orpheus Chamber Orchestra
E. T. A. Hoffmann - Symphony in E-flat:
Concerto Bamberg, Rolf Beck
Haydn - Symphonies No. 3 and No. 23:
The Academy of Ancient Music, Christopher Hogwood
Haydn - Symphony No. 44 in E Minor:
Academy of St Martin in the Fields, Sir Neville Marriner - เพลง
The gigachad has returned!
Facts!
ADONIS
@@hunterac45 Cool to see Hamza connaisseurs in the classical music world.
Gigachads have classical music TH-cam channels?? Tell that to the middle-school version of me!
The Mozart string quartets are truly unbelievable works and they're where I personally was convinced of his genius. That said, I am wondering if you could one day shed let on his string trio K 563 as well. Its a monumental masterpiece.
Yes! The variation movement of K. 563 is sooo exquisite!!
I look forward to that as well. The first minuet is an absolute gem!
For those who live in the Connecticut area, Music Mountain is doing all six quartets in Haydn's Opus 20, the Sun quartets. As Tovey put it, "With Op. 20 the historical development of Haydn's quartets reaches its goal; and further progress is not progress in any historical sense, but simply the difference between one masterpiece and the next."
Tovey was wrong about many things about the Classical period, and so was Rosen. Their "subjective views" and "speculations" about the history should be taken with a grain of salt.
Tovey said of Beethoven's Missa solemnis: "There is no earlier choral writing that comes so near to recovering some of the lost secrets of the style of Palestrina."
But look at "Missa in Dominica Palmarum" (1794) th-cam.com/video/oYaMfYPvd7I/w-d-xo.html
I don't know how your talk of Haydn Op.20 is related to Mozart K.464 in any way, but there's no evidence Joseph Haydn invented the "stuff" and all other composers followed. Tovey and Rosen could be wrong cause they didn't know much else outside of Haydn and Mozart, due to the lack of revival. Look at Franz Ignaz von Beecke's string quartets. (such as the one in C major).
If you have a copy of Charles Rosen's , have a look at page 281, where he discusses Mozart's K.174 quintet; "The immediate model for this work is not at all Michael Haydn, as has been thought, much less Boccherini, but ..."
In this manner, he goes onto discuss Mozart's other quintets, how they were homage to Joseph Haydn.
The closeness of chromatic language and stuff Mozart has with Michael, -Rosen does not mention.
MH287: th-cam.com/video/qIPffGnkaKU/w-d-xo.html (compare with K.515/i)
MH284: th-cam.com/video/ppTToo8lrMQ/w-d-xo.html (compare with K.465/i)
Each of Michael Haydn's quintets (MH187, MH189, MH367, MH411, MH412) predates Mozart's by several months ~ 1 year (MH367, the slow movement of which resembles that of K.465, predates it by months), but Rosen does not mention this either.
The relationship between the fugal final movements of MH287 and K.387 (both of which begin on 4-note patterns) the slow variation movements of both composers' A major quartets, MH299 and K.464, (+ a bunch of other things) -he does not mention.
Why? It's because Rosen did NOT know the stuff.
This Michael Haydn quintet composed in 1773 (MH189) th-cam.com/video/9gDxnpn5vb4/w-d-xo.html was far more important to Mozart than anything in Joseph Haydn terms of contrapuntal dissonance.
By "Tovey and Rosen could be wrong cause they didn't know much else outside of Haydn and Mozart, due to the lack of revival." I mean, the revival of Classical era music (especially music by composers other than Haydn and Mozart) was minimal in their time, how could they have known and listened to everything? They didn't, and their views were obviously limited because of that. I'm saying critics and academics of the past aren't authorities to be relied on unquestioningly. It is now known that Bruckner admired the liturgical music of Franz Joseph Aumann (1729~1797), studied the counterpoint and colored harmony of Aumann's music, but how much of it has been recorded? What do we know? Not much, even today.
@@pdqbach4552 do you have any sources you could share regarding Aumann & his influence on Bruckner?
I don't think anyone is suggesting Rosen is infallible. Perhaps the (probably justifiable) reverence in which he is held is itself testimony to the lack of decent insightful (if inevitably imperfect) scholarship, echoing the exact situation that scholars of his era faced with respect to the wider range of sources & influences you mention. In the land of the blind ...
Rosen was recommended to me by a professional composer, & remains, along with Schoenberg's Harmony text, one of the great revelations of my potted & ham-fisted attempts at providing myself with a decent musical education.
"Thank God for the internet" essentially ... & for channels & videos such as this one ... & for your comments in turn.
I love all your videos but this one is particularly well-paced and clear.
Great video, can't wait for the videos covering the other movements and the Haydn reversal video...always a good day when you post!
I love these deep dives. You really appreciate the music that much more when you peel back the layers. Thanks for sharing!
Excellent! :) Can't wait for the next videos. The trio is playing in my mind after the end of this video :')
This video really opened my ears. I have enjoyed so much of this channel but this was a special one for me :)
While on the topic of canonic minuets, I think it's worth mentioning the sarabande from Bach's B minor Overture-suite.
Sounds like Mozart reused the first motif, in the trio of his Symphony No. 40 just a few years later :)
Also, this has been in my top 3 of his quartets after you mentioned it in the musical joke video, can't wait for the rest of the series!
Indeed. Mozart also used the pink motif in the Andante of that same symphony. Actually, the first theme could be thought of as an elaboration of this pink motif, and one of those extraordinary examples of hiding in plain sight, like Mr Atkinson points out in the latest Brahms video.
The first motif also has the same melodic contour as the final from Symphony 41
Thank you for the clear analysis, fascinating.
Such economy of motifs but such an elegant and "effortless" movement. Wonderful video; thank you!
This is cool. Thanks for your work and for sharing 👍🏿👍🏿
I've been reading "The Classical Style" by Charles Rosen recently, so this was a very fitting surprise! Fantastic video as usual
I don't find Rosen really trustworthy due to his limited view of the period (tries to explain every phenomenon of the period based on 3 composers only; Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven), which can be understandable for his time, because of the lack of revival of other composers' music.
@@pdqbach4552 yeah I've noticed that as well in what I've been reading so far, but I do like his take on sonata form, as a manifestation of the style of the time, rather than a set-in-stone schema that is commonly taught today, although I feel both interpretations have pros and cons
The videos about the quartets of the Viennese school and the keyboard works of Bach have been my favorite of your videos.
such a wonder classical music can be. Thanks for making it so clear. Very enjoyable.
Amazing - thanks!
Grazie, ogni suo video è una gradevole ed interessantissima lezione di bella musica. Grazie ancora.
wonderful!
Thanks for the heads-up about the Hoffmann symphony-looks like I can probably put it on IMSLP in July
Update: posted it!
Hoffmann is such a strange composer with such a weird output. During my Bachelor's program, I worked as an aid for a professor who was an expert on Hoffmann's music esthetics. A protestant Prussian with a love for latin church music and an absolute love for counterpoint which sometimes bears really crooked-sounding results, the symphony is a great example for this, his piano trio and solo sonatas also have some really bizarre passages.
Always a pleasure to watch you dissect Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven! Would you ever do a video on Tchaikovsky at all?
Thank you.
Mmmmm thank you for the great video! ;)
One of my favorite Mozart pieces is his adagio and fugue in C minor. Will you do a video on that composition in the future??
Yes, I started a video on this a few years ago, but I haven't had a chance to finish it yet!
For your interest: Clementi's G major sonata Op. 40, no. 1 has a canonic minuet as well, using an inversion canon as its trio section.
Great video Richard! Can you please do the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra next?
The ETA Hoffman symphony was recently uploaded to the S.P.'s score video channel.
The one piece i really think would be interesting to see is the second movement of Mahler's 5th.
the pink theme reminds me of the notorious pink theme that beethoven, mozart, and haydn loved to pass around!
Precomposition is greatly underestimated
I love this quartet! Will you ever make a video about a Schubert piece?
Definitely someday! The C major String Quintet has been on my list for a long time.
Perfect! BTW Could u pls consider doing some Alban Berg analysis? I'm rlly a fan of him and want more access to modern music.
Amusing video! By any chance you will introduced the d major fugue by Shostakovich? There’s a stunning 3 part canon inside the fugue development!
Love your videos! I have a request, would you consider covering Ockeghem's Missa Prolationum? Thank you very much!
9:32 Reminds me of the minuet of the Farewell Symphony. I know there's a better resemblance but I cant think of it right now
Ok I got it now, the beethoven theme very much reminds me of the first movement of Mozart's 33rd Symphony right before the jupiter motif arrives (about 2:30 in to the symphony)
How ingenious Mozart is!
Atkinson's admirable and amusingly alliterative attempt at a... title
...at an appellation!
Really interesting video! Though I am also interested in your opinion about the connection between this movement and the second movement of Beethoven's Op.132 quartet. It's also in A major, and also features two intertwined motifs (one ascending and the other descending as well) throughout the minuet. Seems the influence of K.464 lasts into Beethoven's late years haha!
btw magnificent use of alliteration in the title haha!
I'll make It easy for you. Mozart is best because of his memory. Fuck beethoven. Even know his last name meets the pattern of 3 narrative. Nobody meets mozart. Not even bach
I’ve actually made that same comparison with 132 in the past, but I completely forgot about it for this video!
What about Gyrowetz's Minuet with the Trio al rovesico from his Op. 29/2?
I suggest you do analysis of a mahler symphony! I know you’re a fellow mahler nerd and I’d love to hear novel commentary on his pieces. By the way, have you thought about analyzing piano-centric composers like Liszt, Debussy, Schumann, etc.?
More Mahler is coming soon. I'll probably do some Chopin at some point, but we'll see about the ones you mentioned.
Hi, great video, very precise and informative.
What is your source for Beethoven's comments to Czerny about K.464?
www.proquest.com/docview/1494106084
Is Bachs Violin concerto No.1 in B-Flat (BWV 1041) on your analysis list? If so, I’m looking forward to seeing more of your content
I joked in one of my old videos that "all of Bach" is on my list.
@@Richard.Atkinson Ayo! I love your videos man, keep it up!
Its a shame you are not getting more views for your work. Say, where did you learn your musical knowledge? I wanna be expert on music theory and music analysis like you
I think Joseph Haydn's use of dissonances in the minuet of C major Op.54 No.2 somewhat reflects this (but I personally think that, unlike his brother and Mozart, use of contrapuntal dissonance wasn't his specialty. He's more into "wackiness", like the rhythmic ingenuity you explained in another video).
The slow movement of K.464 has uncanny similarities to Michael Haydn A major MH 299, btw. I think that Michael Haydn is more brilliant in his viola quintets, F major MH 367 (which predates Mozart's K.465 by several months and has a slow movement that anticipates it) is a contrapuntal masterpiece, and a piece superior to MH 299, imo.
Also, I feel there's a certain motivic similarity of rhythm between the movements. Notice, for instance, the 1st movement has the rhythm [ dotted 1/4 note - 1/8 note - 1/8 note - 1/8 note ].
the minuet has the rhythm [ 1/2 note - 1/4 note - 1/4 note - 1/4 note ].
the final movement has both.
"Cyclic Integration in the Instrumental Music of Haydn and Mozart" by Proksch, Bryan Jeffrey, (can be obtained online), which discusses other possible connections between movements of K.464, is an interesting read, btw.
I have not read that last article, but I was already planning to discuss this (the finale of K. 464 uses motifs from the third movement, etc.) in the videos about the later movements.
Mozart really loved to use call and response
The Minuet Al Roverso also exists in his 41st piano sonata. Do you know which came first?
Most sources list Symphony 47 being composed in 1772 and the sonata being composed in 1773 and published in 1774. But that doesn't tell you which came first in his mind.
The first person who gave me private lessons in composition actually had worked on an analysis of this movement at the Academy of Music. Sure, it's an interesting quartet - especially the first and the slow movements, I like a lot. However, this movement is a bit strange. For me, the true masterpieces are the last two quartets in the series. We also have the second movement of K 590. However, I don't think they are on the same level as his best quintets.
Also Menuet from the 2nd Piano Trio Es major by Schubert consists canon. But why Schubert named this part just like "Scherzo"?
This part: th-cam.com/video/5loanKuuYq4/w-d-xo.html
Have you ever considered doing Beethoven’s diabeli variation? I find them very confusing and they don’t seem to vary the actual theme.
Very well done, but it would be nice to follow up with a comparison of this minuet with the minuet from Beethoven's Op. 132.
Someone else already mentioned this in an earlier comment, and yes, I'm very annoyed I didn't make that comparison in this video.
The slow movement of k.464 has a number of similarities with the second movement of Beethoven's op. 95
I find both Mozart's and Haydn's quartets fascinating. They're often more complex than one would expect, especially in the Mozart "Haydn" quartets or the Haydn Op.20 quartets (some of which have some spectacular fugal finales such as No.5 in F minor, which reminds me of the Kyrie of the Mozart Requiem). Yet, they always seem so beautiful.
On another note, could I persuade you to do a video on the composer Sergei Taneyev? If you haven't heard of him, I think you'll find him right up your alley. His contrapuntal prowess is almost unmatched, especially in his late works (though this is by no means the only place where it can be seen). His treatise Convertible (though more correctly translated as Moveable) Counterpoint (which I am reading right now) looks at what he calls vertical shifts (which includes double counterpoint as a subset) and the less explored horizontal shifts, and is a great treatise, if very challenging. I haven't read his second treatise Doctrine of Canon yet, though I've heard its one of the best ones on canons. Here is some of his music:
Cantata No.1 - John of Damascus
Cantata No.2 - At the Reading of a Psalm
Symphony No.4
12 Choruses
Piano Quintet
String Quartets (All, but 1-6 specifically, which come chronologically after 7-9)
String Quintets
Oresteia (his only opera, and one that only has one full recording, all the others cut scenes)
Prelude and Fugue
Sorry if I've rambled on too much.
I love Tanyeyev too, thanks for this list of music, I haven't yet heard all of those pieces. Have you heard his piano trio? I love that one as well. And the Oresteia is sooooo good!
At the Reading of a Psalm (Taneyev's final composition) is easily up there along with Bach's greatest choral music. And it includes the most Earth-shattering fugue I know of in the first movement. You can listen and follow the score here th-cam.com/video/CIYP1xzVF64/w-d-xo.html
Great video as always!
@@sanderspoelstra8961 Yeah the piano trio is a wonderful piece. I should really listen to it more.
@@lauratabe1945 I agree completely. At the Reading of a Psalm is one of my favourite choral pieces ever made, along with the 1st cantata and even the 12 choruses.
@@Godzilla-xt4nd It's great to know more people are listening to Taneyev and even reading his works.
464 is such an incredible piece, but I think 428 is right up there!
the second movement!
Hard to choose between them. The last ten are all masterpieces.
@@thomasskoronski8625 They certainly are! I’ve always liked 575 the least of the ten, but even 575 is superb.
@@Richard.Atkinson I listened to K 575 just yesterday, as it happens -- gorgeous. I've always considered it the most lyrical of Mozart's quartets. Not contrapuntal enough for your tastes, perhaps.
What does "inversion" even mean? Like, does that mean that it's the same notes but played downwards rather than upwards?
Analysis of mozart/beethoven sonatas?
Mozart's
Most
Motivically
Masterful
Minuet
(MMMMM)
Motivically?? That's a new one on me...doesn't get past spellcheck as well.
‘Motivically’? I think you mean MOTIFICALLY.
Thank you, Richard. I like you. Do you like me?
Too Tempting a Title: MMMMM