Framewalk: SM64's Most Controversial Speedrunning Trick
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ส.ค. 2019
- A trick that had always been known about, but never used in 120 star until recently has caused a divide in the SM64 community.
A CONCLUSION HAS BEEN REACHED: • The Conclusion of SM64...
I WOULD LIKE TO CLARIFY THAT MAJORA'S MASK BANS ALL REMAPPING SCHEMES
Huge shoutouts to Puncayshun, Cheese, Paracusia, Tama, Fig02, Weegee, Sigotu, Droz, Saksdal, GothicLogic, Minikori, Popesquidward, and Thiefbug for providing me help with community information as well as gameplay footage. This video would not be possible without them.
Also special shoutouts to EZScape as he is my dad.
SOMETIMES I STREAM ► / simply
FOLLOW MY CHEEKS ► / simplyn64
Cheese, Puncayshun, LiamKings, and Paracusia have all recently picked up this strat, and it is without a doubt the most controversial speedrun trick that has been done in 120 star. Some believe it should stay as is, others want it banned, and some are in the middle. I am hoping to at least provoke discussion and have it be put to a vote. It is a complicated yet interesting issue that I have had the pleasure of working on and thinking more about over the past couple weeks.
What do you think?
Background Music Used (In Order Of Appearance):
1. • "8 Bit Beginning!" Slo...
2. • Art of Silence - Drama...
3. • Royalty Free Music - P...
4. • 🎵 Resolution - Wayne J...
Footage used:
Many bits recorded by myself including some OoT footage
Torje's wasteland hess - • Full Wasteland HESS on VC
Fig02's OOT/MM deadzones tweet - / 986409408832909312
Droz's Framewalk w/ controller
Cheese's 14112 - • Super Mario 64 120 sta...
Puncayshun's framewalk w/ input display - www.twitch.tv/videos/46558005...
Siglemic's framewalk from Global Speedrun Association's PACE 2019 - • Siglemic vs puncayshun...
If you are interested in reading OOT's ruling and ESS adapter vote discussions, peep these links
Vote - docs.google.com/document/d/1F...
Discussion - docs.google.com/document/d/1K... - บันเทิง
"A button is either pressed or is not"
Pannenkoek: *Laughs in 0.5 A press*
should've slapped that in there
Half an A press is not a third state of the button, its extending the duration during which the A button is pressed ;)
*aN a PrEsS iS aN a PrEsS, yOu CaN't SaY iT's OnLy A hAlF*
Some say he's still holding the A button to this day.
Half an A press is just defined as starting a segment with A being held. In a full run it would still be a full A press. Not to mention the naming is based on counting A presses which speedrunners don't do in normal runs.
I think we should all play on the definitive version that is Super Mario 64 DS
this is the best idea
I agree with every fibre of my being
A damn fine remake right here
It doesn't have analog controls, makes it not superior :(
Luigi only
Consoles: No remapping of any kind.
Emulators: Do whatever
i do agree that the trick in the video is defenetely a gray area, but to ban remapping would mean you would have to ban all thrid party controllers essentially. though they could ban double mapping.( making more than one button have the same input)
yup
herrabanani - I honestly think that *should* be the case. Original console should be original hardware.
@@GuyNamedSean there are very few new original n64 controllers and they break quickly. Also it would require a handcam. They would run out eventually.
People also played with 3rd party controllers at the time so it should be considered normal play
@@herrabanani Well allow a small set of controllers then. Either original N64, or GC to N64 adapter, for example. Just a plain adapter, no extra features as a side effect of having the adapter.
Just make two separate categories, fracturing the community and bringing disinterest to the run
ok!
I mean, when you say it like that. Now this seems like the only logical solution.
LoL at first I thought you were saying those should be the categories
I don't like this solution because it would make us have 6 categories instead of 3 just for a 5 second save.
@@danielbriggs991 SM64 fracturing the community%
I was always under the impression that remapping analog to digital was on the same line as turbo controllers in regards to being assumed to be not allowed. Personally, I don't care if a trick saves a quarter of a second or a full minute, the overall time impact on a run shouldn't be the deciding factor on whether a technique should be allowed. This is clear hardware modification and I'm surprised top runners don't have a problem with it.
well said
Amen. Fucking shame on the SM64 RTA community for allowing this.
don't a lot of oot and mm runners use a ess adapter or is that just a running gag?
@@mnjkmnjk123 oot yes, mm no
@@mnjkmnjk123 Yeah, mainly because VC tends to have very high deadzones. What the ESS adapter does is fixes those deadzones for VC so they're like the N64 version, which is how it should be. Either way, this isn't extremely relevant. Each game and their categories have their own rules decided upon by the community.
I can bearly catch that damn rabbit never mind pull of these tricks
Dark Looool you just made my day 🤣🤣
AHAHAHAHA
LOL
MIPS, short for Microprocessor without Interlocked Pipeline Stages (see Abbreviations Guide), is a rabbit found in the basement of Peach's Castle. MIPS was originally just a testing character, but was kept in the game because the developers liked him so much.
You have to understand the hours upon hours of time they put into doing these types of tricks. Not saying what they do isn't skillful, but ask guys like cosmo aka narcissa wright how much time he spent on Ocarina of time getting his legendary times. Thousands of hours.
I haven't found it difficult to framewalk, Simpleflips can framewalk. If you allow different controllers period it's inevitable, even if you don't allow digital-to-analogue
simpleflips is a legend, so we can't bring him into the discussion as he's not even human
Simpleflips is a bowl of spaghetti in that he could just do absolute dogshit but he also might do something literally no one else would ever be able to without a TAS
Simply even I Can Framewalk
Actually it's not that hard since you have a few frames of buffer
@@SimplyN64 so you acknowledge that simpleflips isn't human
It's like using a turbo controller on a Mario party mini game.
The remapping of the controller isn't just preference, it gives a distinct advantage.
sort of, but i think turbo is a little more aggressive
BLJing early to skip the stairs in 120 star then coming back isnt just preference its seen as faster.
again im not supporting or going against a remap. but giving an advantage/preference isnt the main issue.
a distinct advantage that literally anyone can have...
This is a trash take. That's like saying using glitches like BLJ are cheating because "it gives a distinct advantage"
@@harrylane4 is backwards long jump doable on an unmodified, original setup? Yes. The post was talking about a clear advantage to someone using this alternative hardware.
Why not ban remapping on console since it the “purest” form of the speed run but allow it on virtual console and emulator since those don’t use the original controllers anyways.
Agree. Purity stays pure, optimized material becomes even more optimized.
@@swagmuffin9000 me too
@Stupid Cat I concur.
Then we would have to ban 3rd party controllers like hori.. or maybe a whitelist of allowed controllers
@@the0mini0prutt whitelist since the analog stick could easily break for bowser throws
It's weird to me that any non-N64 controllers are even allowed.
Ikr
Every controller should be allowed, not everyone has access to original controllers and there will come a point where they will be too expensive to expect everyone to get one. But remapping the controls definitely shouldn't be allowed except for extreme cases
yeetusthegreat how would they not have the access to the original?
@@Chabascus They aren't that durable if they speedrun on them every day, and the controllers start feeling different after you use them for a while.
Matteo alienix2 But they would still have access to the controller
"Playing the game in a way it was never meant to be played."
Uh... we are talking about speedruns, right?
ya i will agree thats not a good point, and it didn't end up being part of the discussion for the resulting decision
@@SimplyN64 Great video, and I fully agreed with your perspective on it. What did they end up ruling?
Regardless of what's intended, what's the point in making categories that are exclusive to N64 and EMU if the two are being merged anyway? Especially when the point in making the categories was because one had a distinct advantage over the other, so wouldn't it be contradictory to allow emulating a controller in a N64 category specifically because it gives a distinct advantage?
Framewalk isn't the problem. Analog-to-digital remapping is.
I'm glad you brought up N64/VC. To me, it doesn't make sense to block an official release of the game from your main leaderboard but allow analogue to digital remapping. You could have bought a wii, controller and game all straight from Nintendo and if you set a record on that, it wouldn't count. Set a record with some custom third-party controller and you're all good so long as it's on N64. For the record I don't see anything wrong with creating whatever custom controller you want, so long as the inputs stay the same. It will be interesting to see what you guys do with this.
Good point, third-party controller territory is kinda monka but having some sort of standard is important when the competition is so serious.
Definitely going to be interesting as this is the first time SM64 has really had something like this going on.
D: Apollo
This is a no brainer. The adapter is unofficial and gives a clear advantage over anyone who is playing with official hardware. Therefore it should be banned.
Succinct. It's easier to be lenient when its not nearly as big of a deal as an ESS button might be but that doesn't mean it should be left alone.
Tell em ennopp dad
No
@@SimplyN64 Make any runs that use controller remapping like this Emulator runs, you're emulating a controller not normally used to play the game, it honestly doesn't sound any different from using a turbo controller for games that would normally ban those.
but hori pads are allowed?
I feel the United Nations doesn’t even produce this quality of a video to address new world ethical questions and crises. 😂
UN skeptical sentiment is a bad lol
UN is full of pedophiles
UN soldiers*
My thoughts is that remapping shouldn't be allowed if it's unintended for its hardware. I don't know if you can remap controls on the WiiVC, but you can't do it for the N64, so you shouldn't be allowed to remap on that category, for example. Just go at it with the N64 controller and, if you can pull it off, more power to you.
Some people play on a drum set...
he specificly in the video tells us how u remap on the original nintedo 64 . it takes a not original item but peopl have emulators in the same category. are u gunna demonize people that need to map out their controls cause they use a pc?
@@edwardallen9919 That's very obviously different than this. The problem here, in my mind, is that they're mapping a stick to a button, which gives an unfair advantage. Stick -> stick and button -> button are always fine, as far as i know (there's probably exceptions to that)
Also.. you know what he meant, are you being purposefully obtuse? What he meant is obviously that you can't remap on N64 using the original first party hardware.
Ban remapping.
It gives an unfair advantage to those who use a Gamecube controller.
Either ban it, or start having subcategories by controller.
all kinds of remapping?
@@SimplyN64 Unless there's some kind that doesn't really change anything, why not?
@@intangiblematter_misc there are some button remaps that players would use with GC controller but not in an advantageous way like remapping c-stick to buttons to make certain camera changes smoother, similar to how u can do with c-buttons on n64
I agree. Everyone should be on a equal footing. N64 original hardware accomplishes that
@@SimplyN64 the sole reason the community revolves around n64 hardware is because that way everyone has equal footing.
no remapping should be allowed and no adapters either, only official and approved (hori mini and others that don't add functionality) controllers should be used.
if there is need, create a new category for non-official/approved controllers.
The strat isn't the problem, it's using 3rd party gear when speedrunning. WHY allow 3rd party hardware that allows the game to be played with control mappings and schemes that aren't otherwise possible?
Use original hardware, period.
N64 Controller is a mess. Just make something like a small asterisk that show if the run was made with the original controller or not.
@@SireForseti That may be a better option. I'm a bit of a purist here when it comes to consoles and swapping out for non original equipment. It changes the gameplay entirely, and in many ways erases the challenges of speedrunning that game.
I'm not the biggest fan of emulators also for that reason. It's tolerable to me with original hardware at least.
The issue with limiting it to original hardware is not even the layout of the original controller. It's the fact that wear on the stick make them less and less usable. And there are no real repros that run on the console itself.
@@HappyBeezerStudios Yeah the wear is an issue of course. Yet my mind just won't get away from the fact that it's non OE being used in official speedruns.
Again I am a bit of a purist here, just makes sense to me to use the OE on runs as that is the most accurate environment to demonstrate game skill and the viability of new strategies.
Flynn Taggart so a forth category
As someone from the Melee community, something like this bugs me. It's why I originally rallied against The Boxx until Hax$ admitted there were balancing issues with it and nerfed certain aspects of it to make it conform to the limitations of Gamecube controllers. I've actually been thinking about getting into Mario 64 but this does make me heavily reconsider it even if I would never be a top player.
Takumi nice, nah my fellow Fox brother, we wait till the year 20XX together :)
and the n64 community gives no fucks. You want easy pivot uptilts and better smash di? go ahead and use keyboard. It's such a small part of the skill gap. Increasing the barrier of entry for that small skill gap isn't worth it. and the box isn't even performing to the limits of a gamecube controller as you can find 1.000 input controllers and people notch their gate, yet people are up in arms about "perfect" firefox/wavedash angles even tho analog will have way more angles.
"with a specific scope that you may pause and read if you like."
_ad immediately plays afterwards_
Thank you for making me emotionally invested in a small speedrunning quirk
I keep up with Super Mario 64 speedruns super casually so my opinion means very little but something doesn't sit right with me with using hardware never intended to be used with the game. I think the players themselves should be the ones destroying these games not the chunks of plastic connected to them
thanks for watching! i agree
I'm not particularly into speedrunning stuff, but this was an incredibly interesting watch! Thanks for making this!
Given the purist attitudes consistent with sm64, I'm surprised this has even been considered. Definitely agree with not allowing re-mapping. Otherwise there is no real reason to ban framewalking, even if it saved a bigger portion of time.
Anyway, great vid :)
I'd say ban re-mapping of any sort, but keep frame-walking with the intended controllers.
I want to see ONLY ONE GUY that can pull that with an original N-64 controller and I'm ready to die
Excellent video simply, glad to see careful thought is being given to this. Here's my take as someone who just watches people move Mario:
Remapping inputs for framewalking should not just be thought of on its own, but also for the precedent it sets for future similar strats that might be developed in the future.
While currently it is thought that framewalking is the only SM64 strat that can be utilized from remapping inputs in this way, new strats are discovered all the time. If framewalking is allowed now simply because 'it isn't that big a deal', it's going to make things difficult if new strats like it are discovered in the future and have a bigger impact. If something like this happens and the decision is made to ban remapping, how many PBs and WRs could potentially become invalidated? If they aren't invalidated, we could end up with untouchable WRs that could stand for ages and use strats that others aren't allowed to use to attain such times, which is unfair. A grandfathering system could be a potential solution for runs made before any rule changes, but the bottom line is that these runners should have known the risks when including a sketchy strat like this.
Moreover, just because there are currently no other strats involving button remapping of this sort in SM64 doesn't mean this wouldn't open a can of worms for other games. SM64 is one of the most influential and widely run games in the speedrunning community. If a precedent for allowing digital/analog remapping is allowed here this could cause similar things to happen in other games. These games could potentially have much more eggregious issues with their new strats than framewalking does. If this occurs, is it really fair to say that framewalking should be allowed when other strats aren't just because it isn't seen to be 'that big a deal'? Where does the line get drawn? I think there's value to the SM64 community coming together to discuss this, but it's important to remember that this could have implications for other communities as well.
Another thing to consider is that framewalking is possible to do by a person through a standard controller, it's just extremely difficult. But if framewalking is performed in a run, how do we verify that remapping isn't being done? Someone could pull it off with a normal controller but if there isn't a camera on their controller as it's happening there would be no way to verify it. This would create issues for those who prefer to stay off camera and make it difficult for any runners in terms of having to adjust their camera to show their setup for verification.
To me it seems far smarter to nip this in the bud now and ban digital/analog remapping for N64 runs. Part of the reason for having a category dedicated to running a game on its original system should be to run the game as it was intended to be run. Using third party controllers is one thing as you're still using analog for analog and digital for digital, but using an adapter to change the way controllers are supposed to work for the sake of a cheap time save should not be allowed.
very well thought out response, I never even thought of other communities being impacted by this decision.
discussions are definitely in order.
thank you for the reply
@@SimplyN64 thanks dad
@@SimplyN64 Seriously though, thank you for taking the time to put this together and thinking seriously about this. From what I've seen of the SM64 community this is in good hands, couldn't hope for a better group of folks to tackle this.
@@Omada828 thank you so much! we will try our best
"Another thing to consider is that framewalking is possible to do by a person through a standard controller, it's just extremely difficult. But if framewalking is performed in a run, how do we verify that remapping isn't being done?" Ok so what is your solution for this? If they ban remapping how does someone who plays the game, but doesn't want to be on camera/doesn't have a camera to record their hands verify their run if they do use framewalking the normal way? Do you ban framewalking all together? Because that would be shit.
Seeing Siglemic pull this off in his run was awesome. It makes for a good viewing experience in live runs.
have to agree, it was extremely accurate
He's a cheater.
@@thedangerroom7747 ?
"speedrunning"
*Crickets*
I think this is the most accurate description of speedrunning I've heard.
lmao
If it's possible on an N64 controller, you should need to do it on a N64 controller.
People using an idiot proof re-mapping to achieve the same result that someone else is achieving with extreme skill, is directly contrary to the concept of speedrunning.
Why don't we just allow scripts too? BLJs are too hard, we should allow one-button scripts in modded versions to perform them.
this was a really well-made video big Simp, would love to see more of these in the future. i guess i don't see remapping as a huge deal as it's only a 5s time save, and i don't think the slippery slope is worth worrying about, at least until new similar strats are discovered if they start saving minutes. but i can definitely see both sides here.
thank you. its certainly not a one-sided issue. valuable arguments on both sides
It’s modifying hardware. I understand using an adapter for another controller but mapping a button seems a little sketchy.
sketchy indeed good sir
Yeah all the NES super Mario speedrunners would like to talk about left + right controller modification
I think remapping makes sense in some applications (i.e. accessibility) as opposed to others (i.e. creating marked ease in comparison to standard hardware and mappings to do something that saves a notable amount of time).
Super Mario kart speedrunners would like to have a word with you
13:55
The only man in America named Gay Bowser has passed away.
So long, Gay Bowser.
Isn't there already a word for what they're doing? I mean they're using specialized TOOLS to ASSIST their SPEEDRUN, yeah I'm pritty sure using tools that give you a distinct advantage over a typical playtrough is called a T.A.S.
A japanese import cartridge is a TOOL to ASSIST their SPEEDRUN, giving a distinct advantage over a typical 120 star playthrough. Unless you live in Japan where that is the typical playthrough. Is using an USA 64 over other versions a tool giving a distinct advantage over PAL due to faster game speed giving much lower times? An NTSC 64 is not the typical way to play in Europe. You couldn't buy one without specifically importing one.
If you start throwing around broad definitions of TAS, you start bumping into problems with that everywhere.
What else? Goldeneye speedrunners using a rubber band? That's literally tool-assisted. Allowed. Goldeneye and other games where using a second controller gives an advantage in single player due to coding errors in game mechanics? That's definitely not a "typical playthrough" but perfectly allowed.
What about PC games where an "official" keyboard or mouse don't exist? What are the standards on that? Does having a thumb button on a mouse give an unfair advantage over mice that don't have those? Does having 6 or 12? What about alternative keyboards like the Orbweaver that don't have a traditional keyboard layout at all?
If you start calling everything a tool and claiming that's a TAS too easily, you just end up with a lot more problems than you ever solved.
@@killerkonnat Dude Problem's alread been solved: th-cam.com/video/Pkl_k1HYsgM/w-d-xo.html
Chill out, get a drink and stop digging through old comments to try and find someone to argue with
Im kinda sad that a simple trick like frame walking is even an option. Cheeses long jump wall kick is way cooler! You are right bout this being a can of worms. I just watch SM64 runs so I dont really have a solid grasp on the inner workings of the community. Remapping like this does hurt the N64s purity as it makes it feel closer to a emu kinda thing. I also think that boxes are dumb lol. Love these kinds of videos Big Simp!
thank you! It is definitely walking a fine line and a complicated issue. Also trying to pinpoint what "purity" means as controllers like Hori are allowed and that isnt an official controller m is difficult
Yeah thats the slippery slope starting with a Hori then the "box" honestly. We are frame walking a complicated issue LUL. I just normally watch a few runners (you, cheese,lunar, and clint stevens) Clint just for the memes tho! Your invitationals give ppl a big sample platter of runners in one spot which is awesome! So I'm on the outside looking in on the matter but if down the line a new adapter or remap could provide a no skilled time save the community will have some future issues. I do hope that no form of remapping can lead into a new age of cheaters.
@@SimplyN64 Does that controller actually do anything though other than offer a slightly different layout? I think it's fairly easy to differentiate button remapping or added functionality from simply a different layout or analog stick and button performance.
I mean, sure, different controllers will change how you play some, but that's like different rackets within Tennis. It's possible to have lots of different rackets that are within the bounds of what is a legal racket.
If the controller isn't fundamentally altering what the user is able to send to the console, then it can be as different as it wants. Or if you do have a controller that has built in mapping or remapping, then it just has to be verified to be one to one. It would have to be replicating the original controller functionality. I also agree with several other people here who suggested that since the community is already split into 3 categories, the console category should not allow remapping, but there shouldn't be any limits on the actual physical controller used so long as it isn't changing the inputs somehow.
The other categories can be a separate debate, especially the emulator category.
This is a very well done video and I hope you make more in the future 👍
thank you! will be more to come :)
This videos are simply great! (Get it?)
I love the style and how you make a summary of these things. Would love to see videos like this about the history of other strats in SM64 speedrunning.
Very well made video! Clearly explained with good use of visuals, and you gave a solid introduction for anyone who isn't familiar with speed running and sm64 specifically. Nice stuff man!
Great video big simp, would love to see more commentary style videos like this in the future :)
Also I think that this framewalking trick should be reserved for emulator speedruns due to the justification of keyboard players having no choice but to use this control style.
The way rom hack leaderboards justify the use of framewalking is that if allowed for keyboard and controller players, nobody has the disadvantage, making the game fair for everyone to speedrun
definitely planning on it, thank you so much :)
That's the whole point. If you wanna participate in N64 speedruns then buy a N64 console and Regular first party controller and that should be it PERIOD. Emulators? Everyone has a keyboard
I personally ain't in the Speedrunning community but I think it's ridiculous to expect people to only have the option of buy overly specific 3rd party hardware that Nintendo didn't intend for OR give up on any chance of ever achieving a world record
It mirrors the same discussion the Smash community had with Smashbox/BoXX
Framewalking itself should be allowed, no question there, since it's possible (albeit incredibly difficult) on stock controllers
Analogue-to-digital input is a macro, regardless of how the controller is originally designed. Hell, the smashbox-style controllers have a modifier button to do lighter analogue inputs, further illustrating the point)
Alternative controllers should be allowed though, as long as the functionality of analogue inputs are unaffected (There's a fightstick style controller called the Smash Stick in the works that uses an analogue joystick for example)
As for the runs already submitted, a different category for them would be ideal (e.g. #Stars Digital%) since you couldn't move them to Emulator since it would be disadvantaged by the lag differences
the ssbm community and BoXX is definitely very similar. so the boxx is allowed, but certain mappings aren't. is that correct?
@@SimplyN64 Based on the ruling at EVO '18, Smashbox is allowed, provided that there was no software/macros and that all buttons only allow one direction or input to be mapped (source twitter.com/MrWiz/status/985995201167556608?s=19 )
Smashbox was also legal for Ultimate this year, though no mention of the clauses in the official rules, but likely implied
TBH8 ruleset goes further, basically allowing it, but with strict rules on what modifier button are/aren't allowed to do (source docs.google.com/document/d/1EfQeX64iJLM8wXHaZMyH_gC2Zpw3Tk-QSrEBe7RUM1s/edit?usp=drivesdk )
That was such a pleasant video, i loved the peaceful music you put behind it and the thoughtful commentary
A+ video. Your research, writing and narration are excellent. Keep it up!
Great video you explained this phenomenon perfectly!
thank you for watching! glad I could convey it properly :)
ess adapters are kinda wack. If people want n64 deadzone, play on n64. For the remapping, think maybe it should just clarify on the leaderboard if a run was done with button remapping yes/no, That way people could play how they want but the record without remapping would still be distinguished/valuable
yes, some sort of indication is necessary!
Awesome video! would definitely love more history of speedrun content from you
Excellent video, reminded me of something Goose would make. Definitely keep making more like this.
That clip of Cheese doing cannonless looked so much smoother and cooler than the framewalking trick.
Also, having this "analog up" button would make it easier to escape from a Chuckya's grasp due to how the mechanic works.
That's a good point, just because all of these elite players know the enemy spawns well enough to avoid them doesn't mean that there aren't other places this remap would apply if they were learning. That's one issue with only people in a group deciding who's welcome.
120 star should retain no restrictions on strats but mapping an analog signal to digital should be banned imo but for n64 only, as emulator and VC have their own advantages and respective leaderboards anyway, and therefore their own rules and regulations.
When it comes to n64 Mario 64 speedrunning, it's especially important additional functionality is not added to any of the hardware used to speedrun the game, so as to not go beyond the bounds of how the game was meant to be played from a physical hardware standpoint. That is, an analog control stick, digital buttons, an n64 console and an sm64 cartridge. As soon as you throw out any one of these limitations it begs the question of why use n64 hardware at all in the first place, when it is clearly slower than other options. These hardware limitations are fundamental to the rules and boundaries of sm64 n64 speedrunning and should remain that way imo.
Also as a final point, it simply isn't fair to the runners who don't have the money for this extra raphnet adaptor to not get access to this free time save. Sm64 is not and should not be a pay to win speedgame.
Putting it down to a vote amongst the runners would be a good idea. Perhaps at the next PACE the issue could be discussed with each other in person, as many sm64 runners will be there.
Lastly, it probably isn't worth the hassle to remove the runs from the leaderboard that used the adaptor as there isn't many and it wouldn't make a big difference, and also critically the adaptor was not banned at the time they used it.
all great points, thank you for the response
Great video, had no idea you did YT content but definitely subbed. I personally think that if anything gets banned it should be the trick itself not modded controllers. That said I think Cheese should do the cannonless trick in races cause that strat is swag af and would be sick to be seen done first try.
You deserve more subs, Simply.
Very professional execution on the video, you did well.
Sick video! The remapping leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I think because mario 64 has never been about using the fastest newest hardware. I enjoyed you sharing both sides of the situation though and why the issue is a bit sticky.
thank you for watching! yea I wasn't rly sure about if I'm just out of touch or if this is a real issue, but wanted to present in the fairest way possible
This seems like a no-brainer:
Using 3rd party hardware to do something a stock controller can maybe do, but with 0 consistency? Ban it.
If it requires great skill and timing, top players should have no issue doing it. Those that aren't top players will know everyone is on the same playing field, even if the gap stays large.
well its not quite 0 consistency, multiple people have now demonstrated that framewalk is certainly doable on a hori pad
@@SimplyN64 I guess the question I have then is, is the Hori pad more/less sensitive than a stock N64 controller?
Can a person be as consistent with a stock N64 controller?
If the answer is no, this is akin to a 3rd party non-stock controller, and should be banned based on those grounds. If it's consistent on a stock controller, then the can of worms remains open, I guess.
I dunno.
@@Lenophis I don't really agree. A better performing controller should not be the issue. The issue should only be if the controller is modifying the inputs being sent in some way. Sending analog/digital instead of the opposite, turbo functionality, macros, mapping that enables multiple sources of the same key state.
The N64 had plenty of 3rd party controllers at the time it was out, and due to the fragility/lack of comfort of the analog stick, they were pretty popular. Especially considering games like Mario Party or Mario 64 could wear your analog sticks out quickly.
It seems to me (an outsider who doesn’t run or regularly watch runs of SM64) like a more specific ban on “framewalking with a digital mapping” would make everyone happy. Runners could keep using boxes to run at the cost of a strat most aren’t using anyway, and framewalking would remain a thing for people who can make it happen with analog inputs.
I greatly enjoyed this video and subbed!
TH-cam : *HeY wAnt To SeE sOme dudE TaLK AbOuT sPEeDrunnIng A GAme THat u dONT rEally Care ABoUt*
Me : sure.
Great video btw.
Ban mapping button to do frame walks for you, make the players learn to mash the analog manually imo (for N64).
preach!
as one of the people to get to the stone pillar with analog framewalking, i can confirm that the effort it takes to do it is immense.
You know speedrunners that go for SM64 WRs do 1000s of attempts in a very short amount of time? If they grind runs using this tech via the analog stick alone theyll get carpal tunnel/RSI in no time. It is a VERY rough, fast, and repetitive movement.
I'm not in favor of adapters in general, but expecting players to disregard their own health like that isnt right. If the top players decide that they want to grind the trick that way then its fine, but I think its wrong to force that expectation on them as the viewer. Whatever the top players decide is fine, imo. Buying an adapter is not cost prohibitive, they are very cheap, so it doesnt have a negative effect on the integrity of N64 competition.
I don't think ESS adaptor is a good comparison. ESS is difficult in a different way from framewalking. ESS is a very precise position on the analog stick, but it doesnt require high dexterity or cause repetitive physical stress to find ESS and hold it. Its hard, but not physically demanding. If ESS WAS demanding like framewalking, then I would also argue that an adaptor should be allowed if the top players/community have a vote and agree on it.
@@BurnsyRuns So what you’re saying is that any time there is a trick that requires an extreme amount of physical effort, it is OK to map buttons to help perform them to avoid injuries? Like, I get your point, but it seems arbitrary. There is always going to be button mash type of things in games. Having fast hands/durable body has always been an advantage. I really want to agree with your mindset (for many reasons) but I feel like it is too arbitrary to allow these mappings when doing something on the Nintendo 64 (The whole point is to be authentic, otherwise emulators and external hardware would be allowed).
@@SilentSlayers no, not anytime. I think when it comes to speedrunning its always a game-by-game/case-by-case basis, which is why I put emphasis on the specific speedgame's community deciding rather than outsiders.
I see your point; "why not have a turbo button macro for windwaker zombie hovering then?", etc. But if there was an easily available turbo mod and the TWW community decided they would rather use that than mash manually, then I dont think I'd be in a position to disagree with them. Regardless of how I feel about it, theyre the ones putting in thousands of hours and I think they understand what the consequences of allowing these things will be better than I do. If they would still want to legalize turbo mashing and the majority of their community didnt find that lame or an arbitrary skill removal, then who am I to disagree with them? Theyre the runners, not me.
A very compelling little episode. Rather than get into my detailed opinion, I think the group vote should be a great start
simply you should consider making a WR progression video on 120 star, with your insight of the game it would be really cool.
I personally think having it part of non emulated speed runs is a slippery slop who knows what else could be found to save even more time
yup, the extreme doesn't seem realistic, but who knows? there needs to be at least some ruling
Maybe as simple as having a “button mapping category” and then the “purist” category where you only have official hardware. That way nobody’s exploration, research, and grinding goes to waste!
if the ban doesn't go through, I would at least want something like this
Simply right! There needs to absolutely be a category where somebody can only, imagine this, play the game as it was intended 🤔 nice video! Thanks for making and informing the public!
Congrats on the pop off video! Keep it up
I don’t know much about speed running but this was a very well put together video def subbing
glad you enjoyed it! thanks for watching and look out for other hot future content!
I laughed at the point where the words were said, " playing the game in a way that it was never meant to be played." :11:30
It's like, I imagine those old developers in the 90's writing their little code like, "they should kick every time they open doors, to save precious milliseconds. That is the way this is game is meant to be played."
ya i realize after the fact that is not a good argument
Bell bopped dad, great video would love to see more
thank you much! there's more in store ^^
thanks for the explanation! great video!
You seriously only have two thousand subscribers? You really deserve more, this video was made very well and I’m looking forward to more.
I think the crux of the issue is that any specific remapping analog inputs to digital inputs is not a functionality that exists on official hardware. That being said, I think there should be three separate categories:
1. runs that utilize ONLY official hardware
2. runs that utilize community-approved hardware
3. runs that utilize any sort of external hardware (TAS'es, basically).
I would say add a sub-category to N64 for 3rd party/modified controllers. This of course excluding referb/repaired OG controllers.
All around great video dude
You deserve so many more subs. This is amazing.
Great video simply!
Discussion like this is very good because the vote you want to cast is going to shape the future of the SM64 speedrunning community (and other communities too). Considerations of the future are more important than the 5 second timesave therefore I think it's very risky to allow something like this to be normalized.
My personal thoughts on this is that it should be banned. Remapping the analogue control stick to a digital button is manipulating the way a controller naturally functions. What makes this different from using a turbo controller? I don't see much of a difference between these two things. Remapping a controller feels slightly less dirty than using a turbo controller, but still dirty.
So yea I think people should vote based on what is best to shape the community to be healthy rather than just to get a free 5 second timesave.
agreed! and thank you for taking the time to watch :)
"Playing the game in a way it was never meant to be played"
In a category full of bizarre glitches and unintended exploits
to be fair theres not that many glitches/exploits in used in speedruns, especially 120. but i do not stand behind that as a fair argument or anything
That's internal
Dude I’m new here. Love the content. Keep it up.
What I was expecting: framewalk, should it be banned?
What I got:
Amazing content, Simply. Yes, I want more of these videos! Awesome.
modified peripherals are usually a big no no so I don't see why this should be an exception
totally weird seeing you here but love ur art LMAO
This is certainly an interesting discussion.
My point of view comes from that of a viewer mostly. I've done some light speedrunning on games like Samus Returns, Celeste, The Messenger and Metroid Zero Mission but I wouldn't consider myself a speed runner. With PC games, you've got multiple controllers and setups but almost all of these cases are setups that existed at release.
This hardware should probably be banned on the N64 console. From the point of view of a viewer and casual player, part of the spectacle of watching a speedrun is knowing that it is being done through player skill and knowledge. A speedrun is interesting to watch because the viewer knows that if they were to put in the time and effort they might be able to preform some of these tricks and maybe even get a decent time. In other words, the speedrun blows your mind because of all of the precise movement and interesting glitches but it is also achievable. This is also why watching tons of TAS videos back to back isn't nearly as interesting (for most casual viewers) as watching a human do a run.
It would be one thing if the player was able to achieve a glitch through know how and ability but in this case, the players are using a piece of hardware to artificially break the game. No one would even be having this discussion if all of the people involved were using the original N64 controller (or something similar) and yet here we are. And of course, this isn't even about frame walking; giving the players easier to use controls and control mapping will lead to more skips and tricks which are probably not humanly possible on an original controller. We all know that a huge part of speedrunning is an ability to find skips and gitches in the game.
well there is a reason that the tas "records" are around 20 min faster than the current real records.. it is NOT possible to perform most of these glitches by a human in real time.. the ones that are are already used and the run paths are so heavily optimized that it really depends mostly on rng if they set new records or not.. and while there is still more wiggle room for the real records the tas community shaves like a ms here and there because they found a way to get a star or glitch done like a frame or two faster.. this is beyond insane at this point.. but for this issue i think the answer is really that it shouldn't be okay in n64 runs.. well if done through trickery like remaps.. if it's done legit then hell ofc it is okay..
Enjoyed it, solid game grind history. would watch more
really emotional music, great job
Seeing as there was a clip in this video of the trick being performed on a standard controller, banning the trick is the worst option as it rules out the potential for that method of execution going forward.
Banning alternate controllers, as the ending narration implied ("using the given hardware, and doing your best job with that") also doesn't seem ideal given, again, as mentioned earlier many players switch to a different controller for throws.
So that leaves either the analog to digital conversion (for console runs, as otherwise keyboard players on emulator are screwed- which leads to a small inconsistency in rules), or fully allowing. As I am not a runner of this game, I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on the matter, but 2 of the stated 4 options go against other established facts, and I think that presenting banning the trick as a valid option is perhaps a little disingenuous.
banning the trick definitely wouldnt be the way to go about it, banning analog to digital remapping on console is the vote that im thinking of
I think the best thing about speedrunning is that it showcases a player's extreme skill developed over countless hours of practice. I understand that there's a very blurry line between cheating and doing whatever is necessary to push the limits of what's possible. This is true of all competitive sports really. There is no "natural" way to perform at the very highest levels of human achievement. It always requires questionable and exploitative strategies that aren't always equally accessible to everyone, whether that means acquiring the best equipment, using supplemental nutrition, relying on analysis and information gathered using special instruments, or just inventing new ways to do things that aren't technically against the rules because no one ever did them before.
As much as we'd like to believe that our heroes have some innate godlike ability that allows them to perform inexplicable feats, they are most likely ordinary people who have put enough time and energy into their craft to set themselves apart from casuals while also learning from those who came before them and daring to go further.
That said, this is jackleg hax and obv cheating. BANZ!
had us in the first half, not goona lie
Honestly though, I don't see how the trick itself could be banned given it's possible with a stock controller, but the mapping seems outside of the spirit of the sport, so to speak. The original N64 controller already includes a D-pad for digital directional inputs, but the game doesn't accept those for controlling Mario. Using something to send essentially a digital directional input to the game is breaking the rules of the game and thus breaks the rules of speedrunning that game. Also, I think expressly allowing controller modification leads to a slippery slope with regard to existing and possibly yet-to-be-discovered tricks. Why not also map a button to joystick straight down for use in Whomps cannonless? Why not map a button to nail the perfect angle for the Rainbow Ride glitchy wall kick? Why not map an additional joystick to mirror inputs for easier control while being pushed by a big bobomb? I think once players shift from practicing harder strats to finding workarounds via hardware and other modifications, the rules should establish additional boundaries to put the focus back on player skill. I'd hate to see the record become so optimized that doing this frame walk trick becomes necessary to be a legitimate contender.
@@scottsmith4346 yes its hard to see the extreme now but with current rulings, its certainly a realistic possibility
im not in your community but this video caught my attention, id like to say u have a very nice way with words and that this almost sounded like a journal or newspaper writer wrote this as an article, very nice
glad u enjoyed it! thank u for watching
I think it fits the accepted definition of a tool-assisted speedrun. While we have banned TAS as legit for the leaderboards, the leaders on the board can play the exact same run twice, one being five seconds shorter only because of the mapping hardware. Unfair? Yes. For speedrunning, it essentially opens the door to allowing tool-assisted speedruns.
Yo simp I’m gonna need that optimal swimming tutorial real soon
ive been crafting the perfect video for it, please wait just a little longer ;)
I feel the trick is fine so long as you are not using altered hardware, and by that i mean remapping.
if you are you should have a asterisk next to your run.
if you can not perform the trick yourself without the help of hardware manipulation like what digital does, i am sorry it makes no sense.
i am fully fine with 3rd party controllers as production of the original is now done and ware and tare is going to become hard to avoid.
Maybe i am considered a purest, but i feel when i speed run, i like to base my runs off of what "I MYSELF" can do to the game to perform the trick and not my hardware that helps do it easier because it is manipulating the game and button configuration and speed for me.
why switch from emulator to play the game on its old school hardware when all your gonna do is still manipulate the hardware from its original intended state in your runs?
you may as well remain in emulator.
@Nom you're aware nobody likes that, right? sorry if you had good intent, but going ham on grammar in youtube comments makes people come off as a bit rude
"A digital signal is a digital signal; you can't say it's only half."
Interesting video! Maybe there should be a tap for 'og hardware' and the rest can use all other forms?
No clue what a wise vote will be, especially since I am kindoff a speedrunner since december 2019?
Anyway, I am just glad that I avoided this trick in my world record, and I will not include it for future improvements ;) Just to be safe and also, it's kinda hard on og n64
We're going through some similar shit in titanfall right now. Ty for this
my pleasure! what is it yall are working thru right now if you dont mind sharing?
@@SimplyN64 for sure. Most Titanfall 2 runs are done on PC with mouse andkeyboard as it is a superior method of input due to its precision and accuracy. A runner recently found a way to emulate controller inputs with a keyboard using third-party software. what we discovered is that the game is tuned very differently for keyboard input versus controller input and that the game handles in a completely different way when reading controller inputs.
while there are pros and cons to this it does ultimately make certain segments of the game easier and makes certain aspects of the movement easier as well.
Our rules have for a long time stated that no modifications to gameplay are allowed. However, now there is an argument to make an exception for this software because, theoretically, the same thing could be achieved with hardware albeit in a roundabout way. We've had some long, somewhat heated discussions these past few days and are preparing for a vote. Feel free to DM me on Twitter if you want to hear more.
@@Bryonato very interesting, seems like a super tough one since PC is acceptable and its rly hard to "Verify" software/hardware being used
"Basically playing the game in a way that it was never meant to be played." Game wasn't meant to be speedran in the first place.
that was from the point of speedrunning, but yes, at the end of the day, its all arbitrary
Jesus Christ you are good at this. It’s impressive really. Love your shit bruh
My thought on this situation is that while the trick should not be banned, controller remappings should if they surpass a certain time/rank threshold. This way, it can be easy at the low level, but hard on the high level, meaning that the trick would stay allowed, should a minute time save be found, but it wouldn't give those who spend a lot of money on the equipment to remap a controller an advantage.
I dunno how that's even an argument, ban the controller.
Third party hardware should never be allowed in speedrunning, otherwise I'm gonna start hooking up my Power Button Controller to spam 500 A presses in 5 seconds. How did this even make it past any kind of regulations in the first place?
We are indeed opening a can of worms when we start setting specific hardware with specific key bindings as the standard for saving time in Speedruns. What's next, taking a screwdriver and installing RAM into your N64 to bypass having to use specific camera angles to reduce lag?
My dad came back from the store after I watched this video
nut
it's amazing to watch all the controversies that pop up in non-tas speedrunning communities. i think the last time i remember a controversial position in TAS was someone suggesting that it should be legal to do a RAM injection to simulate a cosmic ray memory bit-flip for pannenkoek's TTT upwarp.
Man I cant wait for the TH-cam algorithm to bless this amazing video. You were not joking this is saucy af.
I'ma give it 5 years
I'd say 2 tops
@@OfficialNoCoast this is the TH-cam algorithm we are talking about. 5 is being generous
I have seen this recent video being posted in the Super Metroid SRL Discord, and I think I have some wise insights to provide for this, so please hear me out and let me suggest an approach to resolve this so-called controversy as someone who has experience from being involved in category/strategy/trick/glitch/controls controversy/banning discussions frequently over the past years.
To me, this matter appears to be rather a new gameplay-related aspect that (as it seems, given that even a video has been made about it) has (at least currently, though views and judgement about the relevance of various speedrunning-relelated aspects may change over time) gained sufficient interest by a part (if not all) of the members of the SM 64 speedrunning community, and seems to be recognized as being relevant enough for speedrunning to be a (new, to-be-introduced) speedrun-distinguishing parameter (among many already existing ones in use) for which individual people from the community would want to know about (e.g. for a given speedrun) if this unusual control-device variation was used/involved or not.
From a general long-term perspective aswell as leaving speedrunners their freedom, I think keeping track at all of as relevant enough (how ever a community wants to determine when this point my be reached) deemed parameters to begin with should have a higher principal priority than 2 other things, namely for one, to push/force people to speedrun a certain way they might be uncomfortable with, and for the second, to ''ban'' something, which in its effect basically is equivalent to just not keep track of something, to disregard and exclude it from a place that may to an extent be designed and suited for documentation, comparison, overview, and other purposes (while ''nothing'' prevents others to personally decide to keep track of what feels relevant to them, which might end up making things just more complicated and bothersome, especially in theoretical cases where a leaderboard site is meant to be there ''for the people'' but at the same time their ''representatives/moderators'' enforce leaderboard decisions that an active majority doesn't support [in which case I'd refer to the part 3 of SRCom staff's guidelines: www.speedrun.com/The_Site/thread/qkvjz ]).
One reason for why I think keeping track of relevant parameters would have priority is rather simple: As long as speedrunners aswell as other people are provided the relevant ''data'', they can sort the leaderboard speedrun content by whatever logic or system/structure that they want or would be interested to see the outcome of, but if a knowledge gap about an as important deemed aspect is created for the sake of making a content tracking choice, some ways of sorting runs may become less accessible, and eventually some information may become unrecoverable, even if at some point in the future a decision by others were made to keep track of something from there on. This however admittedly assumes that there are enough capacities to in theory keep track of further parameters, aswell as the additional effort to do so being within reasonable limits.
Leaderboards (even outside of speedrunning contexts) in general already (in my personal opinion) tend a lot towards impregnating 1 given specific view (namely whatever the form of the given leaderboard is, with its structure/ordering aswell as content and occassionally left out content) onto people, which may induce an implicit view of differentiated value of its content, but while there may be justifications to why something may deserve a more important role than something else, at the same time one shouldn't neglect or dismiss every individual's own judgement maturity to assign to a fair amount on their own what they value or care for, which may be something to respect.
Now, regarding the method of how or in what way to keep track of something like this. Well, there is a variety of options (of different degree/magnitude, I'd say) really, but the more comfortable ones may range from including the piece of information within comments, to the introduction of corresponding filters (on SRCom at least, that is), or to separate headers. I think I was able to cover a broad spectrum of thoughts and points on the topic, and hope I didn't miss that much, but that is where others can fill in anyway.
With kind regards, Aran;Jaeger.
thank you for the thought out response. i definitely see your points and would have to say that if it were allowed, then there should be some easy way to tell if a run used it or not. I also like your thought on how leaderboards impregnate a specific view and this is absolutely true, as seen in SM64 vs. OOT leaderboards.
Good Stuff ED 👍
Simple solution: require all original Nintendo 64 hardware, controllers included.
A hori pad is basically necessary if you don't want to keep breaking the stick from Bowser throws.
Imagine if somebody did it with a guitar hero controller with the strum bar mapped to analog up
Music was obnoxiously loud at some parts when I was just trying to hear you speak. Other that.. great video!!
You literally showcased someone doing it by hand instead of just mashing, if remapping controls gets banned people will just practice the trick by hand until its consistent honestly not banning it just saves everyone the headache.
"Save everyone the headache" of learning a speedrun strat?
@@colinmcmasters5819 im saying remapping controls makes something completely feasible easier for progression purposes, only reason to ban remapped controls is so speedrun gatekeepers can feel special for 2 weeks while everyone relearns how to do it the obsolete way
Easy. Gamepad cam. Anyone can just plug in a tas bot anyway.
i think thats too much to ask from people
As someone who knows how the geometry collision works in SM64: There are very few similar slopes in Mario 64 which enable framewalking. Polygons need to be angled about 50-89 degrees upward, as well as have a certain properly meant for walking on ground. I highly doubt this technique will lead to any further time saves.
this is a good video but also it's pretty funny to me how you're the only person mentioned who's even worried about this issue. God what a mood