I am from Pakistan and let me tell you here the seniors are almost always rude and disrespectful towards their junior no matter what field or department you are working in. They will make the junior look bad when they dont know something instead of helping them to learn and progress and grow. The moment you started saying the captain started grilling his FO, I can understand and feel what it was like and how it is gonna end. I can literally feel what the FO would have felt at that time. I feel anger thinking so many people lost their lives just because of an old crappy person who was very overconfident.
I am from Pakistan, and being a manager in an office, I have often been criticized for being "too friendly" and "too frank" with my subordinates. I always reply the critics that I do this so that my assistants and subordinates do not hesitate to correct me when I am wrong. I have a team and I want to improve and utilize its skill. Thanks God... my team never disappointed me and my department is considered the best performing in the company. After watching these kind of videos, I am happy that what I do at my workplace is not a bad thing.
I want to become a pilot in the future, whats the hardest thing to learn in the cockpit and what is the hardest part of flying? I need to learn for my future self
Not gonna lie, but if you've got that much experience but are saying your learning from a TH-cam channel is a worrying thing to hear!!!!! What airline do you fly with? so I can avoid it like the plague
@@SuperWinback Taking a sip of an opened beer and realizing it's piss is a bad day. Killing everyone aboard an airplane because you can't get over your own ego and feel the need to berate the sh*t out of someone in an attempt to make yourself feel better and more superior is a way of life, not a bad day.
The dynamics in the cockpit reminds me of what it’s like in the hospital as a junior doctor. The senior doctors can be vicious to the level of making you wonder if it’s worth it to stay in this career.
Try being the patient with a thousand hours study and full grasp just to be refused the proper test or treatment based on absoultely no info other than the patient already knowing what to expect having already been through the knee jerk diagnosises and them refuted... while in agony and refused the working meds for mind clouding useless for pain and far more dangerous seiaure meds.
Having worked in a hospital for a few years now.. I've met maybe two people who were actually nice. 99% have horrible attitudes and are nasty to everybody around them.
The belittling didn't just kill the guy's confidence, it also over-inflated his own. He had confirmed in his own mind that he was the best, he was invincible, and the rules didn't have to apply to him because he was the expert and knew better. So, he started going rogue. This isn't just about the failures of becoming passive... it's also about the dangers of becoming over-confident.
Very good insight. I think it's very likely that it was exactly as you say. The captain became confused in a challenging situation, and couldn't admit to himself that he needed help. And certainly not the help of the lowly first officer he had just ruthlessly berated.
Of course, people in positions of leadership and power who behave like this towards their subordinates in a chain of command are always trying to salve their own personal inadequacies.
Don't think the culpability is 100% on just the pilot though, its corporate.....how surely they are able to measure these things over time? This was mentioned around the 29 min mark also.
This is the best narration verbally, technically, and cinematically of a tragic aero incident. I am a retired instructor pilot of an A330 and I can say this can be used as excellent training material. Kudos to you!
I think he is, or was, a pilot trainer of some sort in his career. I love his videos he does a really good job explaining things in a way that a non pilot would understand
The show, Air Crash Investigation, would make great training material as well. Air Canada Jazz even requires their ground crew to watch a Season 9 episode as part of de-icing training.
As a pilot for a major airline, I wish we watched your videos during recurrent annual training. You really paint a picture of the complete accident. You bring up excellent points, one of the most important being the CRM that is fostered in the cockpit, or lack thereof. I feel this captain had a toxic, anti authority attitude and the only thing that could have saved this flight is if the FO had been trained to be more assertive and take control in critical situations, and essentially saved the captain from himself. Such a tragedy. Thank you for making such great content- you’re making the skies safer.
Several videos MenTour has done show that things might have been different if the copilot had spoken up, questioned something. Likewise, there're some amazing videos covering captains who are totally power-hungry loons. Both can prove a disaster.
I’m now in my 30s. A 60-something senior berating me like this…I’d have kept my head down too. Probably would’ve only mentioned something too late, after minutes of anxiety.
@@cristianstoica4544 I think that a difficult situation should be set up in the simulator and 2 pilots who work together left to sort things out, with no external input. It would provide valuable information for the airline of what is REALLY happening on the flight deck of their aircraft. Needless to say, the positive as well as the negative lessons should be learned. One point that you will always see, is that with situations such as when 'Sully' saved all those lives, he ran everything past his first officer, to check that he had not missed anything.
I had my friend in this flight he along with his whole family perished that day just because someone thought they knew it all. He was about to get married and I didn’t believe when I read his name on the list of deceased passengers and still can’t believe he is not with us anymore.
Crying about how the FO would've felt seconds before his death. He knew he and 150 others were going to be killed because of the man sitting next to him and worse, because of his own pacificity. He was pleading for his life yet still not empowered enough to take controls. Probably one of the saddest and easily most preventable accidents I've seen.
The FO gave the Captain lots of input and opportunities to avoid this accident. The question to me is how could a Captain, this useless be Captain? A pilot this dangerous is many years in the making and usually the product of management turning a blind eye. Blaming the FO for not being assertive is fashionable these days and gets management off the hook.
Exactly what I thought. There were 150 people aboard that aircraft, of whom only one knew what was about to happen, and he had the flight controls in front of him and did nothing. Human culture must be an incredibly powerful force, that can overcome a person's natural instinct for self-preservation 😔
@@philipjamesparsons real question is why isn't everyone calling the captain a murderer? it's evident that he wanted to die, he even forced the plane down in its final moments for no reason. the fact that people can even watch this and not unanimously conclude murder is absurd.
@@advancedlamb just confused person it seems, Co pilot should have force taken control, declared it to airtraffic control and called for assistance from cabin
Was SaR and Disaster Response for nearly 12 years, i can agree and honestly i think it applies to any job really. Degrading your subordanants is dangerous and stupid, ALWAYS build them up never tear them down. Destruction of confidence can be a slippery slope leading to people either becoming angry and irrational or withdrawing into themselves and becoming unwilling to learn or speak up when they see a problem.
@@KilerkRazorclaw Can’t disagree with you there. I once had a boss like that, he was duty manager in our department which meant he was second in command. When I was new, I thought it was personal until I saw him tearing into my ward partner. (We were cleaners in a hospital and there were two of us in the ward.) Afterwards when he’d gone back up to the office I asked about it and she just said he was like that way with everyone and that if I got caught into one of his tellings off was to just say “yes sir” then ignore everything he just told me and carry on doing it the way I was trained. And yes, we do have to be careful. We have a cleaning solution that involves dropping a dispersable tablet into a bottle filled to the appropriate line with cold water. And the cold water part was important because if you drop it into hot water it releases a chlorine gas. Go figure. After awhile I thought about it and decided that it was much less aggravating to simply be a bit more alert and that way I could usually notice if he entered my ward and take evasive manoeuvres to avoid him, usually by ducking into the nearest toilet, office, behind the nurses station or even bail out of the ward entirely and embark on a journey to the storage and supply area to grab a few things our cleaning cupboard was running low on. Admittedly though that approach nearly backfired because he noticed that on the rare times that he went into my ward to specifically find me, he very seldom actually could and was forced to leave a message with the nurse in charge or my hapless partner. That led to accusations of me not actually being on the ward doing my job. The only reason it didn’t backfire is that whenever my supervisors went to find me to do random spot checks during my shifts, I was always there, easy to find and diligently working. Looking back on it now, I think either he, my supervisors, or both figured out what I was doing-particularly when my partner noticed the accusations and asked me directly about it and of course I confessed to her… and then we both started doing it. We even found ways to warn each other-usually by making some unique noise that slightly abusing our equipment makes or by hand gestures. It seems like a lot of effort to avoid one aggravating manager, but honest to god it got to the point where he could irritate me just by walking by. When the day came that word came down the grapevine that he was leaving I was concerned that I was being pranked but nope, and receiving that news led to what was the happiest shift I’ve ever had at work. But yeah I have sympathy for that poor first officer because he didn’t have the evasive options I did. Lol, to be stuck in a tiny flight deck with my old deputy manager for hours on end? 🤯I don’t think both of us would still be breathing by the time the plane landed. 😉
I worked in television for 20 years, an arena that attracts more than its fair share of narcissists, egomaniacs and sociopaths! The toxic bullying in that cockpit broke my heart, and was sadly familiar to me in my former work in television. So often the last people who should be given power over others, are the very people who get it. And of course they pursued that power in order to abuse it, and those unfortunate enough to find themselves answerable to them and their vile, sadistic conduct. My heart breaks for the first officer, whose last hours alive were gleefully made miserable by that monstrous Captain. No doubt he had a long history of workplace bullying. In his sixties, I believe his fragile ego was threatened by a younger man, so he enjoyed the chance to humiliate him to elevate his own status (in his mind, though in no one else's). It's no better than schoolyard bullying and it's totally unacceptable. If only he had been reported before for such conduct, his career as a pilot could have ended - and all those people he killed with his vile conduct might still be alive.
Must be very hard for the families of the victims to come to terms with the fact that they lost their loved ones because of the over-inflated ego of a captain. Utterly heartbreaking.
Agreed. In simplest terms, they lost their loved ones because of one guys fragile ego. In every action the captain made was an attempt at saving face in front of his Junior colleague even though disaster was imminent. If you make a mistake admit it. Don’t make three more mistakes trying to cover your ass. Let that admission be one of your greatest lessons taught to your junior colleague.
@@TheGrandGanon That always feels to me like a shaky assumption in principle, but in this case I can't help but wonder if he truly did have some cognitive decline from aging...
@@AnimeSunglasses Statistically at that age they're likely are in decline. Where in most jobs the amount wouldn't be an issue - when operating a plane it's introducing too much risk.
His arrogance got every passenger and crew member killed. What an infuriating accident! I've seen this in so many different industries. You get that one guy with all the experience who thinks they are above everyone and just does as they please. "Screw the company policy, I'll do it my way" all the while belittling a newer employee. Absolutely infuriating!
@@johnneal00 Ideally, the FO should've taken over, but under the circumstances, with the captain belittling him and undermining his confidence, I can't blame the FO at all for not doing so. This tragedy was the captain's fault.
@@johnneal00 It wasn't cowardice, it's just how the culture was. Back then, you just didn't question the captain. His word was law, and you don't dare talk back to him. You get hardened war vets that don't take kindly to some rookie questioning his decades of experience. This accident, plus a few others brought about major changes in the training culture that now gives the lower ranking Pilots the confidence to speak up without fear of repercussions. Had the FO spoken up, yes this could have been avoided, he just did what his instincts and the culture back then said to do.....nothing :(
I had been doing well in my flying training, doing several cross country solo flights when unexpectedly my instructor said "I'm coming along for the ride today." Anyway to cut a long story short, I had of course, got quite used to the traffic pattern and the headings/distance before turning. I was on downwind when my instructor told me to turn in a direction that was totally wrong. I immediately said "Sorry Jock but that's wrong" he replied "most excellent! but don't be sorry your reply should have been that's not right or that can't be right. I just wanted to know if you had the confidence to tell me what I said was wrong. You have learnt another important lesson today, and one I don't want you to ever forget" A valuable lesson indeed and one that did stick with me.
Not a pilot, but my in-car driving instructor did this sort of thing towards the end... she'd tell me to turn the wrong way onto a one way street or tell me to make an illegal turn, lane change, etc. She wanted to see if I'd obey her or the traffic laws. (I followed the laws.) This reminds me of the study by Milgram about blind obedience to authority - we are somewhat programed to obey those who have authority in any given situation, and willing to act in a way that contradicts our own training, conscience & values.
@@DominikPinkas My dad did the same while teaching me to fly & while teaching me how to drive back when I was 12-13 yrs old. Best lesson I ever learned, and it stuck with me over the decades. When I taught RF engineering in college, I did the same with my students near the end of the course.
Just in case anyone is interested in the real probablity of what happend on this flight: When I was Chief Pilot Safety for PIA, I received a confidential report from a F/O who told me how, an otherwise genial captain behaved in an arrrogant manner on a DC-10 flight from Paris to Frankfurt. The next part of the flight was from Frankfurt to Cairo. The capt was fasting during the month of Ramadan, and he broke his fast at sunset, when they were descending for Cairo. Cairo was renovating the main runway so no aids, except for a locator NDB beacon on approach was available. The capt was instructed by ATC to come over the airfield and join a downwind circuit for the runway in use. During the final turn for approach the captain saw two parallel lights that he thought was the runway. He rolled out of the turn and lined up in the post sunset desert haze. The copilot ( who had been trained by me) was always told to use ANY available aid for reference, even if it was not usually used for an instument approach. He had tuned the Approach beacon and it showed that the runway HAD to be at right angles on the left. The captain ignored him. Fortunately there was a dead heading DC-10 captain on the jump seat. When thy reached 500ft AGL the copilot yelled "Cars!" --they were approaching a road!The captain did not respond,The Jump Seat captain shouted at the copilot to take over and he seized the controls and opened power to pull up. The captain seemed to be in a trance. With the guidance of the other captain the copilot carried out a makeshift let down over the beacon and landed safely . This happened in the late 1980s . ANother report came in about BOTH pilots on an F 27 falling asleep while fasting. I banned fasting and flying and the CAA followed our example. It is my belief that the Air Blue captain suffered from hyoglycemia (low blood sugar) caused by fasting. His fellow captains told me that he was very religious and had asked for a day off after praying all night and planned to fast the next day. He was picked up for that flight due to a pilot shortage, and probably continued with his fasting program , as it was a short flight.After the first turn to join a bad weather circuit, he most likely developed tunnel vision as he did not respond to any warnings carrying on towards the hills--and when he finally did, he panicked and turned left , not right--straight into the Margalla Hills. The Karachi A 320 crash occurred on the last day of Ramadan. My guess is that both pilots were fasting and were in that same euphoria induced tunnel vision. No pilot could have made those stupid mistakes in their right minds. I sent a message to the Inquiry Accident Investigation Board and also briefed the top brass of PIA. Strict measures were brought in (like I had done 25 years ago) and there have been no such incidents since the Karachi crash. The saddest part was that it was not necessary to fast and fly from a religious point of view. In the lectures that I gave to point out the dangers of fasting and flying, I pointed out that 1) Fasting is excused while on a journey and 2) A fasting day missed can be made up on another day off when not flying. This had nothing to do with age or Alzheimers, Dementia etc. Air Force pilots on a very early morning training flight were know to have accidents because they did not feel like eating at that time--the equivalent of fasting. For every Air force flight, the commander of the mission sits with his pilots and EATS before flying.
Thank you for sharing. This makes a lot of sense. Hypoglycemia can paralyze the thought process. If the captain was fasting at the time of accident, then this is the most probable explanation.
keep the religion out of it your envy is so clear beside it's not your business to tell people when to eat or not read the law that you said that you are aware of, beside i checked with my collegues about this info and guess what you are a liar so next time dont lie its bad for you
While this is _kinda_ believable... you will NOT develop tunnel vision from not eating for two days lmao... furthermore he was actively arguing with his copilot, which doesn't seem like a trance to me. More than likely, since you mention he was very religious (hence conservative), is that he was just an arrogant old uncle that could not stand being told they're wrong by a younger person, even if it means them making stuff up just to be right (when they know they aren't)... but which resulted in loss of life in this case. Tragic... Knowing Desi culture, I instantly knew what this was about when he started scolding the young guy and him calling him "SIR" every three seconds.... Read my other comment for the full explanation. But basically if you've seen the show "Chernobyl" it's exactly that 3.6 roentgen scene - a veteran in his field, but because of that too arrogant, and perhaps due to age, incapable of making the RIGHT decisions. It's a deadly combo. Always stay humble, and if you can't function properly, don't work.
Shocking... I‘ve been flying for airlines for more than 5 years now. I am convinced your videos will help me identify threats and prevent accidents and incidents. I think you‘re doing a great service to airline pilots with your videos!
Yes... Always be prepared for everything, even your copilot going full Andreas Lubitz on you. As a mere passenger I have a habit of always touching the aircraft while boarding, asking it silently to deliver me to my destination in one piece and preferably alive. I always pay attention to the safety briefing, I know where my exits are and if seated at the emergency exit, I know how to handle the door. But I can't pat the flight crew for good luck, I just have to trust them to do their job. Having watched almost every episode of "Air Crash Investigation" hasn't helped. And no, I'm not afraid of flying, it's the possible 200G impact with a hill or a forest that makes me somewhat nervous.
Dear Lima, I'm a still living old bold pilot. I think every commercial pilot should have a minimum of flight time every month in a light aircraft! So you can remember how to fly! A Cessna 150 or old Taylor-craft taildragger is fun! A ball and attitude indicator and a compass are most helpful! I hope this advice may someday save you and your passengers! Db Cockpit management is the key! Enjoy your flying career, I did!!! Db
@@robertgoodwin5393 I 100 percent agree with you. Unfortunately I have decided to put my single engine piston hobby on the backburner for now. With a newborn and a Longhaul/Shorthaul job there is just no time and money for now... The good news is, flying visual approaches is highly encouraged in my company...
I binge watched the Flight Channel for a while, often after night shift, and after a few beers in I'd fall asleep while watching. One day I awoke to a terrain, pull up warning and almost pissed myself.
I can just imagine my dad RIP who was an airline captain saying, " This captain is not fit to drive a horse cart, let alone fly an A321". RIP to all the victims of his incompetence.
I mean, it was cultural/systemic too. Stop with the ‘sir’ deference, take the controls, and shout “my plane!”. You don’t win prizes for politeness, just an early grave.
What an infuriating accident. Heartbroken for the FO and, of course, all the passengers. Calling this preventable is a gross understatement as the captain had to go out of his way to manufacture a crisis before completely failing to respond to it properly. So sad that the FO could have done something but the captain belittled and insulted him enough that he felt totally helpless and out of control in the final moments. I hope the passengers never knew what hit them and died at least not feeling the same kind of terror that the FO experienced. What a tragedy
@@ok-jw8px The plane and the F/O were shouting "Pull Up!" The a--hole was arguning with everybody, ground controller, C/P warnings, F/O warnings, just confused as hell. Ignoring company protocol with only a year in company showed whoever hired him is too blame, too. He might not have had Airbus time at his old carrier.
Being a Pakistani from Karachi (where this flight originated), I lost acquaintances in this tragic accident and even then there were rumors that a lot was brushed under the carpet like the fact that the pilot stayed awake all night before the flight etc. In reality (and as you have mentioned) the main issue is the culture of cutting corners and safety lapses and unless we are willing to learn from such horrific losses nothing stops more accidents from happening.
Very valid points, and if there have been corners cut, and inadequate training in responsible behavior, it is possible that authorities may sweep deficiencies 'under the rug' as you say, to save the focus pointing at the authority charged with the responsibility to monitor and set standards.
The fact that the report was extremely half-assed makes me think the problem isn't just with the airline, but it's structural. Pakistan sounds like a very corrupt and unsafe place to live.
The non-aviation culture of some countries like the US encourages self-destructive behavior like this, largely because there's always someone who profits from it. A million deaths from covid; they don't learn from mistakes -- they embrace them as the standard.
I was a firefighter/medic in the states and I can attest at how common this type of behavior is even while bumping down the road with a patient on the verge of death. Makes for a terrible learning experience and the loss of confidence in a newby is astounding. Thanks for taking a stand and glad it’s not as commonplace in the flight industry.
I worked for n individual who exhibited all of the negative aspects of this captain. I am convinced he was actively trying to break me down, so I have enormous sympathy with the FO in this case.
@@MentourPilot I think the mentality of these folks is rather, "I had to endure this when I was younger, so now I have earned the right to do it to someone else". Plus, people who grow up in a culture of bullying often develop impulse control problems later in life.
@@petrairene and it’s a dumb attitude, like surely if you have empathy then you’d truly understand what it’s like in that position and would never want to put someone else through that
@@ZombieSazza empathy is often whittled down by mistreatment and achievement. "I've gone through that, and look where I am. Im doing great and I am great. Therefore, if I do this thing to someone else, I am doing something right."
From what we can tell, the FO hadn't lost any (or just a little) situational awareness - but was afraid to takeover controls. If he would have taken control and the CAPT didn't like it - the Airbus fly-by-wire system has a design feature, that allows a pilot takeover sidestick priority and to ignore the inputs of the other sidestick, if needed. This system works on both sides, so either pilot can keep the autopilot disconnect button on the sidestick pushed, which will give that sidestick priority over the other one and the aircraft will ingore any sidestick inputs from the other side as long as the button is pressed down. If that CAPT would have become angry at this point and wanted controls back, the only way that would work (in a technical manner) is to SOMEHOW get the FO to stop pressing the button (yank the FO off his sidestick or knock him out...). If that button is not pressed by the pilot in "control" and the other pilot gives sidestick inputs at the same time, both inputs will be added arithmetically (e.g. left side full down + right side full up -> plane doesn't change the attitude). In both situations, the pilots are made aware of that by aural warnings ("PRIORITY LEFT"/"PRIORITY RIGHT" and "DUAL INPUT") and a switch in front of them lighting up for a visual warning.
@@marcel1416 Oh that’s actually really good to know, thank you very much for the information. I had been wondering about that for awhile now. I was aware that pilots are meant to challenge the other when it becomes dangerous and take control, sometimes saying “my aircraft” but I wondered what would happen if the first one didn’t relinquish it. Not knowing about that system, about the only solution I could think of was a mean right hook if you’re big and strong enough for it, or delivering a sharp kick to the balls if you aren’t. Either way the first one is probably going to let go of the controls. 🤣 I like your solution better.
I would have take control of the plane, and the bewt the captain into a bloody blob of broken bones Such an incompetent pilot shouldn't even have a driver's license 🙄
Man I remember my instructors having WAYYY more confidence in me than I had in myself. I always felt like I was being convinced I was better than I was, meaning I pushed SO HARD to prove them right.
sounds like fantastic instructors. Still havent managed to start training yet but the sheer amount of stress has to be insane. Im a trucker .. use d to extreme stress but just the thought of communicating with ATC while trying to land sounds insanely stressful
I am an ergonomics engineer and a human factors engineer. Making the student comfortable with communicating with the teacher and building confidence in the skills that the student has and is developing, is the correct way to teach!
@@sharoncassell9358 If that was the case why take 151 innocent people with you ? Plenty of ways to take your own life without including others in that plan.
Then they are natural teachers. I’m an educator and that approach right there is EXACTLY how to handle most students that cause problems, especially in middle school and high school. It’s a time when a lot of us struggle with self confidence in general and by that age if they have been labeled a “problem student” they’ve leaned into that as a coping mechanism. It’s amazing how many can become better students with that confidence in them and the expectations being set high (but only reasonably so-still within reach). Then recognizing the successes and using mistakes as a teaching tool. I really don’t believe just one teacher is likely to change en entire life trajectory (I’ve heard the stories and have my own favorite teachers that you better believe I’ve reached out to to thank now that I’m in their shoes) but something that has to be built by instructors as a team. BUT even one is better than none! I’m not nurturing by nature and can be snarky, but I do love my kids and WILL keep trying for that semester I have them to build confidence (I feel like art is an opportunity to work on life skills in a more relaxed environment so that even if they hate art and get stuck in my class they’ve at least learned SOMETHING) because you’re exactly right…once they start to realize the tasks before them are something they really CAN handle they push themselves to prove it.
It has been 13 years since this air crash. I had lost a dear cousin brother on the flight, I was fortunate enough to spend the last night with him at his house. I am so thankful to mentor pilot to bring out the details of the incident to the grieving families. May Almighty Bless you. Keep up the good work.
There are many parallels between the work of an Anesthesiologist and the piloting of an aircraft. I have experience with both. The culture in the cockpit described in this episode is exactly what I witnessed in medical school at Indiana University in the middle 1980’s. A large minority of the professors were not satisfied until the student being questioned was entirely humiliated. Fortunately, my pilot training experience was quite excellent. My CFI seemed only interested in helping me become the best pilot I could be. Thank you for a particularly well executed video.
There’s a brilliant book on this, called the Checklist Manifesto by a general surgeon named Atul Gawande. It highlights how well aviation has learned from checklists and how physicians make excuses that medicine is too complicated to formulate checklists. Gawande is one of the creators of the surgical safety checklist which is used around the world now before every surgical procedure. I believe Malcolm Gladwell has also highlighted CRM issues arising from hierarchy.
I'm a med student and yes, there are some consultants that will stomp you into the ground. I remember one instance of being questioned on ward rounds, I was able to answer but then he started asking questions at the resident's level and when I couldn't he chastized me in front of the whole team and patients. Luckily for me, the interns and residents saw what he was doing.
@@pranavmishra5541 Checklists do have a place, but that place is not everywhere. When resuscitating a patient do we do a time-out and confirm that we are, in fact intubating the correct patient as evidenced by their hospital ID and a signed consent form? No. It is self-evident that as the patient is having CPR performed this is the correct patient, unless we already have in hand a valid do not resuscitate order and if this is so then the first action is to stop performing CPR. Do we confirm the site for central venous access when in an unstable patient we now have only one IO, multiple failed attempts at peripheral access, and a blood pressure of 50/30? No. The site is a central vein - any central vein. Right or left is irrelevant if the vein is patent and the wire advances freely. Medicine differs from aviation in multiple other critical ways, one of which is that in medicine the only time you have two physicians of the same specialty managing the same patient at the same time is briefly during change of shift. Most frequently in medicine there is only one person licensed to practice medicine and surgery touching the patient at one time. In contrast, within the cockpit of all large transport aircraft both pilots must be legally qualified to operate the aircraft. Single pilot IFR only exists with smaller aircraft and Part 135 operators. The abbreviation "CRM" is still used for single-pilot IFR, but the wording is different and the practice is very different from what is practiced by part 121 crews. A different implementation is needed also for medicine, and even within medicine it would need to be implemented far differently at a rural critical access hospital with only one physician and one nurse versus an urban academic hospital with every subspecialty available in-house.
I feel so sorry for the First Officer who, although having far less flying experience than the Captain, would probably have developed into a great pilot. If there are other bullying Captains, like the one who was "in control" here, they should take note!! A great video Petter.
As someone who used to fly on this flight as a passenger, for work (Karachi-Islamabad), I am very familiar with the area and the hilly terrain where we used to also go for trekking (Margalla Hills). It was a tragic tragic accident with so many lives lost. Thank you for making such a an excellent video for non pilots but aviation enthusiasts.
@@Amped4Life Yes agree. Some of the reasons: hide corruption and their incompetence to implement regulations related to air safety; cover up their nepotism; and recruitment of personnel not suitable for key technical positions. In short, myriad of issues.
@Arshad Altaf Thank god you weren't on this particular flight! It must be pretty strange for you when you heard about this accident with the knowledge that you frequently flew this flight.
I still remember this day. Rescue operation was an even bigger challenge due to inaccessible terrain. The plane crashed deep into the hills inside deep forest. No road access. None of the hiking trails leading that way. Sky Pouring down like non-stop. Thankfully the new airport is now far south west of these hills with a lot of clear area.
I think the captain being 60 and already mandatorily retired from a another airline on age grounds had something to do with it. He felt 'threatened' by the younger pilot and was trying to reassert himself, with tragic results.
a good teacher is like a satnav: if you take a wrong turn, it simply tells you how to get where you want to go. this captain? he thought he knew it all and wanted to be 'da big man'. and so many people died as a result. there was no other reason behind this tragedy
One of the reasons the report was so limited in it's scope was that the airline industry in Pakistan at the time was a mess of fake and completely missing qualifications allowed through the system by bribery, cronyism, and intimidation. I have no knowledge of the qualifications of the aircrew in this situation, but a 2020 investigation found 1/3 of professional pilots registered in Pakistan had fake or fraudulently obtained licences, with Pakistan International Airlines, the parent company and controlling operator of Air Blue being highlighted as having problems. Out of the 860 pilots in the PIA/Serene Air/Air Blue operation 262 were found to never have taken a piloting exam and held fake credentials. As a result of this, PIA is banned from flying in both EU, US, and many other authorities airspace with most PIA flights now operated by foreign charter firms. Taking the state of the Pakistani airline industry into account, it is likely that pressure was put on the investigating agency by officials to limit the investigation merely to Air Blue Flight 202 and not look into wider issues due to the damage to the reputation of Pakistani aviation that would result. There were 5 further major crashes before the report on the corruption within Pakistani aviation were published in 2020.
As I was flying from Casablanca to Cairo I was a bit concerned about a few things I saw! The person next to me said, what I found rather chilling, "If Allah wants us to get to Cairo, We will get to Cairo!! Ok then! Enough said! We did make it to Cairo without incident! (And I'm still happy about that!!!)
Hi, I lost my Job as a 737 Captain in New Zealand due to Covid. I used some of your systems videos to help study for an upcoming Command interview which was successful. Keep up the good work.
@Blue Penguin we make ATC software and our team managed to get a hold of an ex-ATC to help out with the project as a domain-expert. It would never be possible without the Covid downsizing I think. Last I heard he is training to become a pilot now that the situation is normalizing.
I can relate a lot to this, not as pilot but as a truck driver, I didn't die but we ended up clipping the barrier because his ego was to big to give me the controls when he was clearly tired. This attitude should not be allowed in any industry, specially aviation with so many lives at stake.
I'm glad to hear you didn't die, I was really worried for a second there! But seriously, it's stunning to imagine how people can put ego above common sense in these situations
I work in Safety/Compliance at a trucking company and was a driver before this job. It amazes me every time when I have to call a driver about their foolishness and I'm met with "I've been doing this for X amount of years, blah blah". That's when mistakes happen, when you're so arrogant to think you know everything and there's nothing left to learn. Just a couple days ago, a guy turned over going too fast around a curve...he had over 20 years of experience...you'd think he would know not to take a 40mph ramp going 68mph with a 40k lb load but here we are 🤷🏽♀️
When you said the recording stopped, I could see your pain, I can see your passion and your genuine empathy for the first officer in particular. A very well presented video made all that much better with your genuine connection and understanding of the cockpit.
In traditional and hierarchical societies such as India and Pakistan have, this problem of seniors putting down their juniors in not so subtle ways is particularly acute. Deference to authority and especially age is a given and this becomes problematic especially when the older senior person also happens to be wrong and refuses to see/admit his/her mistake. Even a polite and firm pushback from a junior could spell the end of a career. That's why it's always " Yes Sir !, Yes Sir !!... Three Bags Full Sir !!! "
Is there not training to stop that its 100's of lives at risk. One ego vs one person? I know what my answer is and I'm not even a pilot. Senior captains should know that the co pilot is trained and also knows how to fly the plane. Listen and evaluate what was said can help in any situation
@@arnoldhau1 The company could encourage the reporting of this type of bullying and then step on the toes of these seniors. I mean, there are voice recordings in the cockpit, any junior officer has proof if it has happened. The companies have to make sure that this is kept in check. And to sack repeat offenders.
Interesting. This was 2010. In January, 1982, I was a 4th year medical student at GW in Washington, DC. I was doing an elective in Forensic Pathology at the DC Medical Examiner's Office. I was there on the day of the Air Florida accident. Even then, long before I got into GA I had an interest in aviation. I don't think I will ever forget that and the subsequent days when the bodies of the pilots and passengers were brought in.... Ice cold and smelling of Jet A... I eventually read the NTSB report. The First Officer commented during the roll out, "It doesn't feel right." He could have aborted the take off but chose not to. It was this accident that brought the psychological factors impacting CRM to bear. Yet over two decades later in this incident, it is as though nothing had been learned from Air Florida. It is absolutely astonishing that the FO had been so shaken by the prior grilling that he passively let the Captain doom not only himself but all the passangers. The only move here was to say, "I have the controls" and clear the terrain and execute the missed approach per the procedure outlined on the approach plate. Tragic.
The senior pilot having that attitude shouldn't be tolerated no matter how many years of practice he might have. That kind of passive aggressive attitude isn't useful to anyone as nobody will learn anything from this. It's not a way to instruct anyone.
I never realized how important good leadership skills are when it comes to flying aeroplanes until I started watching your videos sir. Please keep them coming!!!
I judge the success of my leadership by what happens when I am on holiday or taking a few days off. Also by how people who have worked for me keep in touch 30 years on.
I remember watching the crash news on TV. Our neighbor also passed away in this accident. Unfortunately the findings of the investigation never reached to public. Thank you so much for explaining what might've happened that day.
It was only in the publication of a report in 2020 that the Pakistani CAA was given the opportunity to do a complete investigation of the Pakistani aviation industry. What they found was truly shocking. A third of commercial pilots registered with the Pakistani CAA had no legitimate qualifications, having either gotten a certificate via cronyism and bribery, or having had someone else take the exams under their name. The investigation into this crash was severely limited, likely because a wider investigation would have found that there were many pilots without legitimate qualifications. The Pakistani International Airlines operation which includes Air Blue and Serene Air as a subsidiary operators was found to have 262 pilots of 860 having no legitimate qualifications. As we don't know the qualifications of either pilot in this incident, so we should them the benefit of the doubt.
@@DERP_Squad In this case the formal qualification of this Captain was obviously not the problem. He had all necessary licenses. With more then 25000 flight hours he was a very, very experienced pilot. The disturbing point are his shocking attitudes, not only towards his First Officer but also towards the Air Traffic Controller ("Let him say what he want") and also towards the Standard Operational Procedures of his company, neglecting all safety issues during a difficult approach in bad weather conditions in a difficult terrain - and the THEREFORE raising and unanswered questions: Was this only the personal behaviour of a guy who slipped through the Safety Management System? If yes: How did he slip through? Was it a problem of the Company Culture? If yes: A problem of the Company Culture of Air Blue, of his previous employer from which he switched over only a short time earlier or from both of them? Or are we facing here a broader problem? With this superficial report all answers to this severe questions must stay speculations. And THIS is the real risk in this case.
I am from islamabad Pakistan. And this was the first and most saddening disaster in this city's history. The hill which is the crash site is almost 15 miles away from where I live. Thank you for the video and more information that you shared on this devastating incident.
Absolutely chaos. Absolute chaos. Thank you for highlighting this. I hope it is used to train pilots because , as passengers it is wholly unacceptable to see this level of arrogance and incompetence and bullying. But it doesn’t end there. The accident report is shocking and unacceptable.
I work in an office, manage other people, but those videos helped my managerial skills in a big way. The courses my employer provided were garbage comparing to those real life learning events and videos! Thank you!!
Same for me. I think about "resource management" in a different way, especially when the team is working to a tight deadline or things are a little stressed. But of course the consequences if I get it wrong are nothing more than a late project, maybe lost revenue and an unhappy boss.
The captain had plenty of opportunities to correct the situation but continued to make things worse and worse. It reminds me of my dad's descent into Alzheimer's disease. For the first couple of years he would seem normal and coherent most of the time but slip into dementia suddenly and without any outward sign. Even then he could converse and seem normal but he would totally lose track of what he was doing. This eventually resulted in him driving hundreds of miles totally lost but not even realizing he was lost. Someone heard about the situation on the radio and managed to get ahead of him and block the road so he would have to stop, and they talked until the police arrived, and even then my dad didn't know he was lost. He said he was on his way home, and that home was just down the road. But really he was in another county and was just about to get on the interstate going even further away. But he thought, honestly, that everything was under control. And the captain in this story seems to be a bit like that, totally lost, but not even realizing it and certainly not about to admit it to anyone else.
I feel you, this happened to my grand-father; tho for him it was just dementia caused by old age (he was 90 when it became more than just "being distracted for a few seconds"). But yeah, it really struck a chord when the narration makes it appears that the captain behave like he knows what he's doing when he clearly was behaving wrong.
Could very well be the beginnings of some type of dementia for the pilot. That's also what I thought of. But it could very well also be the fact that he was retirement age and overconfident in his own abilities.
I had the same feeling. This guy made catastrophically wrong decisions, when he got the terrain warning, he did not really react, and in the end he was descending instead of pulling up. That can't be explained with a domineering or aggressive personality, that is reduced mental capacity.
Hi Mentour. Today is the 35th anniversary of the tragic catastrophe of flight LO5055 where all of the 183 souls onboard died. It was the biggest aviation catastrophe that ever happened in Poland. It happened when IŁ-62M "Tadeusz Kościuszko'' was doing an emergency landing with fire onboard, two out of four engines turned off, and without elevator and rudder. Plane crashed 6 km from runway 33 at Warszawa-Okęcie. Last words of this flight were “Goodnight. Goodbye. Bye. We die now…”. Me and probably many people would love you to create a video about this tragic flight.
A video explaining if/when a first officer can override or overrule a dangerous pilot would be great. There are too many instances of dogmatic stubborn pilots making decisions outside of standard procedure and first officers being too timid/respectful to break rank.
Crew resource management is pretty much universal in respectable airlines now. For example, If a first officer calls for a go around, the captain has to do it. Airlines aren't allowed to punish pilots for doing it unnecessarily either.
That was especially true with the Japanese crew of a 777 a few years ago during landing at SFO. If the FO had been more assertive, the accident and loss of life could have been avoided.
@@CKLee-rs4kl I think that was tied to Japanese culture of respecting your seniors no matter what, where in West that respect has to be earned. It partially earned from experience and rank, but there isint cultural incentive to follow orders rather blindly, or rather oppose those orders sturdy enough manner like taking over the controls.
There is no way that was a one time occurrence with the captain. He had to have been like that with previous flights and crew mates. They should have spoken up and maybe he wouldn't have been been flying that flight.
I totally agree. The problem with people reporting this is that the person often feels too humiliated to even tell anyone ... I imagine many people knew what a jerk he was ...
Actually, there is more than just ego. It's a culture. Living in a country where people ARE NOT EQUAL, in every sense of the word, I know how to identify a situation where someone is convinced he's always right, not because he doesn't know he is actually wrong, but because the culture is to never admit you're wrong when you are on a *higher hierarchical position.* Countries where you can imprison someone if you personnaly know some General or Colonel, countries where you can use public funds as you wish when your band of buddies are in charge of the head of staff in presidence and ministry, where you can pay justice to get away. Airlines in such countries are no different, a senior pilot cannot be wrong, you just get fired the moment you land to have the nerve to challenge the boss........... *til the day you have dead people like here.* Then, the band of dictators there will feint a low profile and designate the low ranked representative to fire, as responsible for the lack of professionalism in the industry, they will make some relative efforts (like comply with approach plates from now on and ban all custom made by the captains) and some efforts to behave (but that disgust them the most) ... This will last for a time, but, actually, nothing has really changed, the next junior that dare to question _authority_ will still get publicly fired, well before any major incident. It is unlikely the other captains/pilots were not willing to fly with this captain. When both _high ranked_ are teamed, there is no scolding, no humiliation routine, actually, they have very good teamwork and very friendly with each over. The reason why they are that mean to juniors is, juniors are unaware that, to be "part of the band," one must cover up for the other, in case someone messed badly. It's no wonder why they need to show their authority in public, the culture must prevail and those who don't know yet must witness as much practial example as possible. In any job in those countries, not only in aviation, if you hear one day _"this guy is seeking for problems"_ from your boss talking to anyone but you, while hinting everyone to look at you, you know you're screwed. Countries are not the same guys. There are deep disparities in terms of "equality" or "professionnalism over ego" interpretations. That's why Mentour said it's deeper than just a series of unfortunate events led by an overconfident captain. How come that captain, known for his behavior for years, like many others, not get grounded, and the investigation having nothing to say about ? => Cultural. On an obscure side, one can say it's a good thing he is dead, it's easier to blame the dead... The good thing when it comes to those airlines in those countries, Covid (and the Ukraine war) has brought those airlines in the verge of collapse, that it becomes imperative to make efforts in professionnalism to remain in the competition. Also, many of those "old school" captains are retired or dead, so, less people to humiliate you (although it's not yet a nice work environment either, but, way better than before for sure).
@@melodiefrances3898 Yes, indeed. And if you´re a young pilot, only a few years in the business, probably in your first engagement as a "real pilot", and putted down as a "Know-nothing" by an elderly Captain with huge experience and decades of flying aircrafts, you easily take it yourself for real and believe it. And these guys are knowing this and a part of their huge experience is: "I can do whatever I want, nobody will complain." But if you´re an Airline Captain with this attitude there can be finally a mountain in your way.
I felt 27:44 to my core. Goosebumps. Can't imagine how the FO must have felt during those final seconds knowing what was happening, but unable to do anything about it.
Can't help but pity him, the fact that he remained deferential addressing him as "Sir" right up to the bitter end in disbelief at what this condescending know it all Captain was doing.
I was 8 years old and about 15-20 miles away from where the crash happened, we got the news of this tragedy over a phone call from my aunt and even whilst watching this I got chills through my spine thinking of how everyone felt in their last moments. The kind of stubbornness, arrogance and corner-cutting behaviour this captain displayed here (and I hate to say this) is an example that goes to show why we haven't progressed as a nation and to this day this kind of behaviour costs our people their livelihoods. May the Passengers and the FO rest in peace, Ameen.
Great video. When I transitioned from the C-130E (not very automated) to the C-130J Super Hercules, the best advice I got from my instructor was "When the automation starts doing something you didn't expect, disengage all the automation and hand fly the aircraft. Work out why "the box" isn't doing what you expected once the aircraft is safe."
Viewers its important to read comments because you may have missed something or the person writing has a point you had no clue about. Don't just watch video and think you got this. It makes a world of difference . Sometimes you can answer questions other less informed persons want to know the answer to and hear your side. Its intriguing.
There is definitely a cultural issue leading to abysmal CRM practices. Pakistan International Airlines 8303 crashed in Karachi in May 2020 and there again it all started with the pilot being abusive towards the F/O, sneering at his lack of experience, then disregarding ATC -- ended up touching down gear-up, then crashing on the go around because the engines were damaged during the aborted landing.
talking shit to someone because of lack of experience is probably the dumbest thing ever. Did they start with 20k hours clocked or something lmao that's not how time fucking works. It is like shitting on a child for being young.
Don’t understand why these people hate F/O ? Aisi kya personal dushmani hai ? Karz leke whoopis nahi diya kya ? Matlab apne ego ki keemat masoom logon ki jaan se zyada hai 🤬
@@CW130J Sorry to say but I had been facing the same culture here in Canada for the last 10 + years, so wherever the hierarchy exists the culture is the same regardless, maybe the word smithing is done more in this culture. but the core issue is the same
What blows my mind is that the "pull up" alarm only has one response, there is nothing to decide or debate.....TOGA pwr, and pull up, clean up the A/C if req'd, and if the pilot flying doesn't do it quick enough, then the co pilot should. It amazes me the hold that "class distinction" still has in some countries, to the point it will override your will to survive rather than question your "better".
The other thing that blows my mind is that a terrain alert doesn't disengage the autopilot. But maybe they felt that dumping the pilots straight into manual flying at a time of huge stress wouldn't be helpful. Perhaps it's better to let the pilots turn off the autopilot on their own terms, what should be only a few seconds later.
That was so bad, co-piolt should have taken control the plane and called for assistance from cabin to remove the captain or hold him Back and called radio for police/ambulance once we land as my captain is confused on how to operate the plane (not the first time it has happened where a crash has happened because Co pilot hasn't taken action) the moment the captain did not respond correctly to the second critical ground alarm he should have said I have control of the plane and I am doing escape climb procedure do not stop me or this plane will crash
@@beeble2003 it has a button on the stick to disable autopilot and take "joystick" priority it's just a matter of setting engine power to maximum and pull back (no turning) The Co pilot should have forced taken control in that manner (with verbal I am in control your currently having a medical problem let go of controls don't touch anything)
@@leexgx One of the worst things about this story is that there is a procedure for exactly that situation, I think. When the pilot flying is doing something dangerous for any reason, the other one says “my aircraft” and take the controls while the one causing the danger has to let go. But yeah I don’t know why they didn’t heed the terrain warning.
Dear Mentour, this story of the CRM training is one that really infuriates me. There have been so many, I’m talking dozens of accidents, where the culture of social classes, causes the Captain to berate or demean the first officer to the point that the latter, CHOOSES TO DIE rather than go against this culture! I’ve lived in SE Asia for the last 33 years and I’ve seen and heard of this attitude, with different grade in all the countries here, but I know this is not restricted to this part of the world. Every time the investigation produces suggestions to improve CRM training, for the last 20 years, to no avail, the same problem repeats! Because, in my humble opinion, the same culture, prevents the CRM trainers to give the message in the proper way and prevents the airlines from really enforcing it! I wold like to hear the trainers and company policies to spell it out close to “stop being an a**hole to your crew” and “nobody deserves to die for you to keep your pride”. I’ll be (tragically) waiting for the next “suggestion” to improve CRM training and get p***ed off again at the loss of lives, in the name of cultural idiocy.
This will have to be implemented on a societal level. We are not born with these prejudices and behaviors. We just grow into them depending on what the society around us allows and practices. So, you can't just do away with it at the office or in the cockpit and expect it to be the end. It has to be ingrained into us as a society that juniors are just as good as seniors. Our ideas can be just as good, just as intelligent, just as passionate and just as right as seniors. Maybe inexperience might be a barrier, but inexperience and stupidity are two very different things, and seniors should understand that. Unfortunately in all cultures on this planet the older generations think they know everything. They might know a lot, but they certainly don't know everything. Something their egos can't handle.
@warriorprince eh, please don't paint all elders with the same brush. Many of us relay to people that we don't know everything about any subject. Your statement is as if an elder would say all juniors haven't enough experience etc.
I wonder if he was stressed out to begin with and feeling insecure, considering the weather conditions and the tight manoeuvre he knew he would have to perform in order to land and the fact he had a practically inexperienced copilot he didn't think he could rely on, so he took his stress out on the poor guy and set out a self fulfilling prophecy.
As someone who at some point devoured the Mayday air crash investigation TV series, watched them multiple times actually, and who's read a pile of NTSB reports out of sheer curiosity, I'm so glad I found your channel! Keep these coming, please! This case is kind of similar to Korean Air Cargo flight 8509 where the captain overbanked the aircraft and the first officer did not take the controls and so they crashed.
Sadly, it's quite common here in the Indian Subcontinent.. its a part of the culture. Noone dare even ask anything to the senior, and a culture of imposing this superiority by asking them to do unnecessary things to juniors.
First officer Syed Muntajib Ahmed was a f-16 fighter pilot for 12 years in pakistan air force. then took an early retirement due to medical reasons. He retired as a Squadron Leader.
It's unbelievable though sadly I am witness similar arrogance (although not so catastrophic) from healthcare professionals daily. age and seniority do not overrule facts and logic.
i'm glad i learned the lesson from this video waaaaaaaaaaaay back when i played online rpgs. i already instinctively knew that instead of criticizing weaker members, i'd just give them an easier assignment with more autonomy, so they would feel they played an important role (and it of course, it wasn't not a major role, but it was still important) and feel like part of the team, while i actually micromanaged the main parties to do the heavy lifting. as a result, in my first week in command, i took a understaffed guild that had never won a single front in its 5 months of existence to take over 75% of the world in a single weekend. in terms of manpower, each of our members during that war had to defeat 15 enemies worth of opposition (that's not how it works but yeah we were 30 and we had over 400 enemies fighting over 4 castles, and we ended up with 3 of them). i was so fullfilled after that war that i quit the game the next day. i had nothing more to be done. that game taught me lessons i took home with me long after the game died. they've already come into play many times in my professional life. if only this guy had learned that lesson too these people would still be alive
One of the most remarkable things is that the published/company procedure of short timed headings to fly the circuit was so simple. It's as if the captain was so focused on automation that he'd sooner load himself up with programming RNAV points and fly an automated route than take semi-manual control for the few minutes it would have taken to complete the visual circuit. But you tell us that the accident report didn't look into company culture, which might perhaps have been the most significant aspect of the crash. Really appreciated the clear presentation of the circumstances leading to this accident. Mentour sets the standard.
Being brought up in the subcontinent culture and as an Senior First Officer working in a regional airline, I can say that there ARE times when the cockpit CRM gets unusually steep. But it is situations like this which requires a FO to become most vigilant, diplomatic, and assertive when required. Thank you Capt Petter for explaining the tragic incident so precisely, and also noticing the cultural issues in this part of the world.
There was Khatmandu PIA disaster in 90s because the FO couldn't challenge his Captain. This is cultural issue to core where not speaking up to elders, seniors is considered as respect and challenging seniors is considered disrespectful, plus it makes you bad guy in the system you work. Where seniors, not used to being challenged, rip you to shreds due to their connection with the management. It's shameful had any learning done From the PIA disaster, this wouldn't have happened. Plus the accident report is shameful half hearted exercise to protect political screw ups on the ground as this Airline was owned by the ex PM of that time. Also, building of the new airport brought great corruption money. Shameful, innocent loss of lives.
A life lesson even for non-pilots. Stand up for yourself, dammit! The earlier you do it (e.g. at the beginning of this flight) the easier it is. It can sometimes be done with a simple question, such as "Sir, is this a training flight?" or "Sir, is that the company approved circling procedure?"
This is always easier said than done. You can find yourself in situation when the more you fight, the harder wall you hit ,and you only put yourself in worse position each time. There's risk of being left with literally nothing but more mental scars, that no-one will even care later on either. School reality can be an example.
@@Mantek430 Yes, it can be easier said than done, but KutWrite is correct. Just DO IT! SAY IT! Feelings may be hurt and he might have gotten more pushback from the captain, but this is not a mere sport of cricket, this is flying an airplane with lives at stake. In this situation, one has no choice but to speak up regardless of whether it is easy or not.
I thought the same, I thought at some point the FO would have respectfully said, "Sir, is this a training flight? I'd rather concentrate on the flight since the weather is bad."
@@Mantek430: In my experience, the earlier you address it, the less you have to do. Further, once you've done so, you develop an attitude of self-confidence that predators shy away from. They always go for the (perceived) easy target. The last time I had to use physical cues was a huge supervisor with the railroad I worked for. He wasn't my boss, but high enough to sling his weight around. He wrongly interfered with my job on the radio and I politely asked that he change frequencies. I didn't add, but he should have known the radio rules cover that. He came striding into my office and opened the swing door past which only we operators were allowed. I instantly stood up, smile on my face, making eye contact and walked just as fast right toward him. I'm low-average height and build but the guy was a tower and in good shape so I glanced at his knees, just in case. At about 3' distance, he froze, a surprised look on his face. I said "Sir, with all respect, please check the comm rules before you say anything." He stared at me, nodded and left. There were no repercussions and he never bothered me again. He actually wasn't a bad guy, just maybe had a bad start to his day and felt embarrassed about being called on a violation on live radio. I'm seeing some further lessons on episodes of "Mr Inbetween" on FX. Check it out!
The cultural considerations go beyond just the company culture. Its also a certain social cultural aspect where deference is given to seniority regardless of who is actually right. Very few people are able to stand up to their own right cause because they may not get support from the powers-that-be if it comes to a dispute.
Ironic. The high and mighty pilot thought of the traffic controllers as saying just what they wanted as he himself did and said exactly as he wanted, illegally. As if THAT is not infuriating enough he killed his co-pilot and all the passengers + destroyed an airplane in perfect working order and damaged the land and killed a goat. No dates for that pilot at sundown.
Excellent presentation. This is the most infuriating incident I think I've seen. It should be the first incident taught by CRM instructors by how important it is for commanders to recognise how critical their behaviour is in maintaining a safe operation. Just pitiful how this completely avoidable situation turned into a tragedy.
We have our own version of CRM in education and sometimes there are people that ether cannot or will not change. Either delusional, inflated ego, or compensating for something. We could use more training in how to respectfully but assertively work with others as well, because surviving that first year teaching is brutal and sometimes breeds a culture where “just keep swimming” is all they can do and it becomes a habit. Easier to now make waves, but can result in disaster.
What a heart wrenching and completely avoidable occurrence. Your message of always striving to build up your team members if in a leadership position is so very important and this example brings it to the fullest light. Thank you for another excellent video.
@@christosvoskresye But anger is not going to change the situation. Education and retraining in a positive environment will. Everyone has bad days, but when one allows that to influence their behavior in such a negative manner, it is very easy to get behind situations, close needed staff down, and create scenarios where everyone ends up reacting to events instead of responding to them intelligently and an accident is much more likely to happen.
Unfortunately in an office environment the kind of strategy employed is the exact opposite: to ensure you alone remain indispensable to the job and ensure your own job security.
Procedures aren't there just to make your life difficult, they're just there to make your life longer. If a procedure is complicated there are probably a lot of very good reasons for that.
Awesome video as always. Just one point: the main issue was not that the FO was not there at the time of need. The main issue, in this case, is that the FO continued to warn the pilot, over and over (up to the second they crashed) that the plane needed to be lifted up. And, up to the very last second, the pilot ignored him.
Since I learn so much from the background details you provide (how this airport is approached, autopilot modes, etc.) I would enjoy a series not about crashes, but the trickiest and most challenging airports and how they must be handled.
I also think a series on challenging airports would be very interesting. For example, my hometown Sarajevo is completely surrounded by mountains (one to the east is very close to the airport), the runway is rather short (2600 m) and the weather can be pretty awful in the colder months with lots of fog and low-lying clouds. Big airplanes can only land approaching from the west and have to take off towards the west too.
I have found this in other less critical fields, usually the ones that know the least and are the most incompetent act as if they know more and are snobbish towards other staff, worse when they do make a mistake they never accept the issue and don't try to improve. For me if someone acts like that in my business they won't stay for long, people like that are a cancer on your business and should be excised as soon as possible as it's rare that they will improve.
It's known as the Dunning-Kruger effect. In psychology this is a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or practical skill greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general. Because they are unaware of their deficiencies, such people generally assume that they are not deficient. It is worse if the person is arrogant or entitled as they are unlikely to attempt to improve their skills.
You are right but problems here in Pakistan is that Most Airlines hire the pilot who get retired from Air Force due to completion of their tenor or get grounded due to some medical issues (pulling G Force, cant handle Air pressure due sudden maneuvers etc ) or being released from Air Force due to indiscipline behavior. Bcoz they are trained pilot and Air Force trained them , those pilot given priority over the fresh student pilot with less flying hours. And this is why for fresh aviation cadets , margin is very less to become hired for Airline. So when those (Airforce veterans) pilots get hired by Airline , they have Macho behavior in their attitude bcoz of being former fighter pilot. And these people have tendency to overrule and ignore the ATC instructions or First Officer (lack of CRM) , and due to this , Pakistan faced another crash Flight 8303 PIA , in Karachi when pilot ignore ATC instructions when he was not established vertically.
@@peterjf7723 I have worked in environments with this sort of person, and while it is bad if they are a colleague, it is worse if they are in a position of authority.
This effect also happens in the office day to day, corporate world too. But doesn’t cause deaths like this, rather: talent loss, bad products, incompetent decisions, disenfranchisement, distrust in teams, useless divas. Fun fact, it’s mostly done by men.
The passengers closest to the cockpit would probably have heard the EGPWS audible warnings. That would have been truly terrifying if those passengers understood the significance of them.
If I ever decide that I'm okay with being responsible for hundreds (possibly thousands) of human lives and get my pilot license, I just hope im fortunate enough to have a teacher like you. I Love the takeaways that you impart. There is no sensationalism, no blame or beating a dead horse. Just education and stressing the importance of CRM and teamwork and learning from the past.
I don't work in the aviation industry, however your videos (and in particular this one) have always shown good leadership examples. I am a team leader and building up colleagues to pull in the same direction is number 1 for me. and Second to that no matter how much or little experience someone has I've encouraged them to speak up and ask questions which in turn has built up their confidence. People with the attitude of the captain works in all kinds of industry and we need to weed it out, because once the rot starts it really manifests itself and can ruin good culture.
This reminded me of a crash, B.E.A. Flight 548, that took place in the UK, just outside Heathrow (I believe it's called the Staines disaster). This was back in the days before CRM when the "captain was god" and involved a highly irrascible Captain and a timid and passive FO. The FO had witnessed a highly charged argument between the Capt and other pilots over an industrial dispute and when the Captain made mistakes during take-off, was cowed into not speaking up. The plane (a Hawker Sidley Trident, being operated by British European Airways) stalled into the ground and disintegrated, killing all 118 on board. This was the greatest loss of life in an air accident in the UK until Lockerbie. The resulting report of this accident and it's causes, was one of the impetuses to start training CRM.
@@JamesDavy2009 If I remember rightly, the Captain was incapacitated and the F/O (taking over) retracted the slats early, when the correct speed had not been reached. As a former Trident 1E captain , I can tell you that stalling a Trident (or any large jetliner) at low altitude is fatal.
@@sadiqjohnny77 Captain Key's incapacitation was the result of the fight he had earlier triggering an arterial event (most would call it a heart attack) caused by undiagnosed arterial lesions (atherosclerosis). It may have been Captain Key that retracted the droop flaps early thinking the lever he pulled was the flaps lever.
@@JamesDavy2009 Usually after take off, the captain calls for the F/O to retract the slats and flaps. In the Trident the slat and flaps lever were totally different, although adjacent to each other. If the slats are retracted when the proper speed had not been reached, amber flashing warning lights would illuminate in front of the pilots. Whether the captain or the f/o had moved the slat lever to "Retract" the flashing lights were perhaps ignored due to the consternation about the captain's incapacitation. This would not trigger a stall warning or activate the stick pusher. The flashing lights could e extinguished y pressing them--and then looking at a screen that told you what the problem was. In this case "LE Flaps" would show.
I can't fly a kite but am totally fascinated by your content. I have learnt so much because of your videos about aviation. Every video sends me down a rabbit hole of aviation research. Thanks for the awesome content!
I simply can't follow all the technical jargon in his videos. Most people who watch these only pretend to understand when he's taking about technical features and computer lingo. I'm not one of those people. I just fast forward to the end.
I am never going to be a pilot, but your talks about CRM actually help me a lot in my management position. so thanks for talking about it, you are the one that introduced me to the concept.
Ive never had respect for manager.. especially business majors. I deliver to a company now where ive seen some excellent (and some bad) management. The good managers listen to the employees and rely on them. They do occasionally have to remind people who push too hard but it's fairly rare. This is at a job that is dangerous, can be rough and with constant hardware failures. They work together.. the manager tries to get them what they need while of course having to keep his managers goals up front. Understand these folks have ZERO authority over me or my drivers. We view our job as giving them what they need (whether they know what that is or not). When shit has gone sideways and i see a good crew and one of the better foremen/managers is on duty i destress because i know theyll focus on solving the problem not kissing corporate ass. We've had employees.. and managers.. tell their bosses when we come in theyre taking care of us period.. because we take care of them regardless of what our boss says
I used to be a pro-skydiver and students and inexperienced jumpers would do some really stupid things..., but we always tried to build them up to our level of safety as opposed to shaming them and shutting down lines of communication. And sometimes their fresh perspective was just what was needed in certain situations so the communication was valuable in the other direction as well.
I was HALO/HAHO and combat diver guy in the Army, and have jumped, and dived, with some real oddballs; there's an interesting "threshold of experience" where they go from excited/nervous, then feeling immortal and pushing the envelope, then eventually realise they need to mature and become more safe. The same with training shooters. I really enjoy novices, because their perspective is different; often their questions/inquires make me stop and think about how I'm communicating, or failing to communicate.
Now that I’m about to upgrade to captain, I find your videos to be pure gold. I have been following you for almost a year and I really have improved my skills!!! Thanks a lot!
It seems to me the captain had a very lax attitude to following procedures and felt he knew better than everyone else - which was particularly telling in the way he acted towards his first officer. As you say, it's important to build colleagues up, not tear them down (particularly in a position of power/management). Unfortunately, it seems that many people think this is the right way to work with others, at least from my own experiences. His decisions in the final few minutes are simply bewildering. It's unfortunate for those on board he did not remain in retirement.
Bare in mind that a 2020 investigation by the Pakistani CAA found that a third of commercial pilots registered with them had no legitimate qualifications. Given the situation with the corruption in the acquisition of qualifications, it would not be unreasonable to think that a similar situation may well have been present in training situations, and a failure could become a pass if the student knew the right people or handed over a bribe. His berating of the first officer also suggests he felt the need to prove and enforce his superior knowledge of the aircraft and authority, which may have been a way to stop junior pilots who had better knowledge from calling his competence into question. While we don't know the captain's qualification status and I will therefore give him the benefit of the doubt, his decision to use the route planner instead of the company mandated procedure suggests that he was overly reliant on procedures and systems he was familiar with. Further, an aviation culture in which submission to authority is expected, and corruption is rife would not lead to a situation where a pilot would feel confident in raising issues with the conduct of a senior pilot, and would likely stay quiet to protect their own career.
This is fantastic work as always from Mentour Pilot. I especially appreciate the team building lesson, applicable in a cockpit, an office, or even around a dinner table. Building people up and treating them with respect is not only the right thing to do; it can literally mean the difference between life and death. Thank you for that!
Cowards never save anyone, especially in less than friendly team buildjng type situations where you might actually have to use force on a uncooperative or incoheirant fool.
I remember reading up on this accident, your video brought the severity of the atmosphere on that flight deck to life. The FO was anxiously paralyzed the entire flight an absolutely chilling situation.
The background music and the intonation that your using to recount this situation really pulled me in. Thank you for having a high quality of atmosphere in your videos.
Thank you for covering this! I was always curious about what exactly happened there. I was about 12 years old when this accident happened in 2010. I remember being at Faisal Mosque at the time of the incident which is about 5-8 kilometers near the crash site (Margalla Hills/Damn-e-Koh), I vividly remember watching the fumes of the crash, Armed forces helicopters approaching the crash site, hearing the sirens of the ambulances and list of names of the people identified to be dead in the crash on the car radio.
the degrading guy reminds me of my father, he always made humiliating comments, no patience, and made us feel like sh*t. It never works well, and it didn't for him either. I'm guessing that energy caused the issues here too.
I'm considering he might have had a minor stroke (blood clot in the brain) after they turned towards the PDB-11 waypoint. He becomes almost non-responsive, and acts confused from that point on, messing up with the autopilot like a complete rookie, even though he should know exactly how that works, with so many hours of flight experience. I doubt there was enough left of him to autopsy, but his behaviour during that last minute does paint that picture of it.
@@silvergreylion Not if you're getting nervous and impatient and frustrated at the same time while being confused because you were CERTAIN *you* could not possibly have been wrong. Jet aircraft is one of the most complicated pieces of equipment humanity has ever devised so far. That's partly why they're largely ran by computers and all kind of automatic systems. This is literally not the first time I've seen something like this either, with a few of the other highlights being that excessively drunk Russian pilot getting confused and crashing his plane (alcohol induced arrogance and overconfidence playing on the normal problems of alcohol and judgment/timing/reaction), and that one Saudi or Emirati I forget which flight that was the biggest chucklefuck bunch of morons ever. That one takes the cake honestly. The one passenger started a pot of tea in the luggage area iirc, started a fire, proceeded to fully engulf the entire luggage, the three very incompetent clearly nepotism installed flight crew was like a 3 Stooges routine, and they *even managed to land the plane like this* with the passenger area fully involved. Everyone on board died. The estimation was that because the flight crew never ordered a disembark and left the plane just sitting there on the Tarmac, all the passengers asphyxiated and everyone suffocated and then burned to death. Basically, do NOT ever pin your survival hopes on the orders of others. Everyone was trusting the flight crew to save them and basically, well it was the worst series of incompetence I ever seen. So I think that, in consideration of all these videos, arrogance is equally as lethal as flying a plane blind drunk. It skews your judgment and renders inability to recognize the problem and take acts to correct the error. If you can't tell and admit that something is wrong, that something is not ever going to be addressed and may well kill you.
Since the captain hit the mandatory retirement age limit for one airline and went to a second company to continue flying, I wonder if he was in the early stages of dementia. Sometimes, in the early stages, dementia patients use this to cover up what they are losing. It would be interesting to find out if his abusive behavior was recent or had he always been that way.
I remember one accident on british Airways on an aircraft with droops(similar to slats) where the captain was abusing his fo. Same with an B737 accident in sharm al sheikh
Thanks you for covering this accident. I still remember this morning and no-one could believe that this could happen. There were so many conspiracy theories at that time ranging from flying over no-fly airzone to attack from Americans. In the end in turned out to be an ego of a one man.
You’ve ruined documentaries for me now Petter! Your videos are so incredibly informative and well presented, with such depth of content, that most documentaries pale in comparison. I appreciated how you present the technical nitty gritty and assume your audience has the ability to understand complicated concepts. So many documentaries dumb things down, and lose so much nuance doing so. You’ve really become the gold standard for informational communication. Love your work!
The more you work, the more arrogant you get. You have experience but also at 60+ your mental capacity actually plummets. Deadly combo. Have seen it so many times.
This video interests me a lot. My background was working in an operating theatre. They are different cultures to many places. A great deal of respect and even worship, is expected by surgeons and often anaesthetist. This reduces the partnership bond. The team are less likely to challenge and the team as a consequence in my opinion, the team cannot pull together as a team in a crisis. This means the dominant force (a surgeon or anaesthetist) in the theatre receives less help, simply as by this arrangement. He has in multiple ways elevated himself beyond team work. When things go wrong he shouts at the team with orders. This means the team become task orientated and therefore, only acting on specific instructions. Often later. If the culture was one where the leadership allowed independent thought. And have the opportunity to contribute then things are often different. I have worked with people from different cultural backgrounds. They are very capable, but in some cultures, I have seen them not to be able to question anything without being ripped apart. A lot could be learned in operating departments from this video. But also alot from dynamics due to cultural beliefs that those in an elevated position. Are more elevated than they should be. That said in any culture where the power struggle is in place the one with the most power exerts the most force and that can lead to emergencies that can't be solved. Such as rushing the scrub nurse and closing the patient before they have had time to carefully count the instruments. Also by not expressing the plan with the scrub person over sutures and what they might need can later in the procedure overwhelm the scrub nurse or Operating department practitioner. I have to say in all my time in theatres it was never addressed and the blame for failing was passed down not reviewed as a learning event and therefore any attempt to explore the culture that has a bearing on outcomes. I don't know anything about flying planes. But I wonder how many lives are lost, merely due to attitude brought about from culture. It kills daily.
It's interesting how a retired captain even gets a job in a new airline. He should be enjoying his retirement and leaving his position to someone younger. Also, his hours of flying make him feel that it is ok to violate multiple procedures which led to this accident. It's too bad that the first officer didn't have the chance to fix all mistakes made by the captain cause he clearly knew what he was supposed to do in order to save this plane and everyone on board.
I’ve known of colleagues who retired from heavy airfreight flying with a major and went to another flying job because they made poor investment decisions, several divorces or have no life outside work.
As a recently instrument rated pilot, this is an appalling and bewildering example of a rogue pilot and a macho man attitude. This guy knowingly violates every single principle of instrument flying and being a safe pilot. Terrible.
There could also be issues like blood sugar levels at play with the "captain" because that directly affects the brain's ability to process information. Happens all the time in car accidents for example. The other alternative could be the "captain" simply had a death wish.
This scenario has happened way too many times, even in Europe and the U.S. Korean Air had multiple incidents caused by domineering captains and submissive first officers. Fortunately, CRM training has gone a long way towards reducing such incidents.
The horrific crash in Tenerife was an example of this dynamic. The KLM first officer was too deferential to the captain and didn't insist that they not take off because they had not received notification that the PanAm aircraft had yet exited the runway.
@@edmondzeldin7036 In Tenerife accident, I agree that the captain should have waited for the final call from first officer before proceeding for takeoff. But in this specific case I believe the majority of the fault is of the captain. Also, the lack of radar infrastructure at the airport was bad too.
The issue is really Boomers and their general inability to see younger generations as anything other than children. They hold onto power and refuse to see the younger generations as capable of anything, or if they are, it's not as good as they can do it. So the younger pilot reverts into the mode of their parents scolding them and just shuts down. I mean I never and I mean never won an argument with my boomer dad. He simply ramped it up until I caved in because he was sure as the sun will rise tomorrow in his authority and agenda and it simply wasn't worth it trying to convince him that he was wrong. Not that he would ever admit it or take one word of advice from me in the first place. We hardly talk as you can imagine. He's still toxic even though I'm now in my 50s. In his brain, I'm forever 14 and nothing can change it. And.. here we are again. Stubborn old fool and the younger co-pilot simply unable to tell them no.
There's a big difference between being an experienced operator, and being experienced at handling emergency situations and thinking critically. Most guys who stay at a job for a long time don't really get any better at it, they just simply get good at being lazy and taking short cuts while appearing competent.
This captain puts me in mind of the Royal Air Maroc Express 439, that ‘I am superior in age and rank and therefore know better than company policy and procedure’ only this had such a tragic outcome which could’ve and should’ve been avoided
I am from Pakistan. This accident happened just a day after I returned from Islamabad by air. I still remember it and this video gave me goosebumps 😢 I even read the report in full. Unfortunately in my country we come across such situations so often. There is no accountability. What is over is over. Innocent People keep getting killed because of others faults. The establishment is running this country as a business. They are happy because they are in command and there is no one to question, without caring where the country is headed. At this point in time the country is being run like that unfortunate aircraft 😢 taking wrong turns and going into descent
I am from Pakistan and let me tell you here the seniors are almost always rude and disrespectful towards their junior no matter what field or department you are working in. They will make the junior look bad when they dont know something instead of helping them to learn and progress and grow. The moment you started saying the captain started grilling his FO, I can understand and feel what it was like and how it is gonna end. I can literally feel what the FO would have felt at that time. I feel anger thinking so many people lost their lives just because of an old crappy person who was very overconfident.
"HE WANTS TO BE A PILOT GRAPEE!"
@@ali2naveed no
@@ali2naveedJJ's flight crashed somewhere in the northern area!
@@ali2naveed JJ was coming back from Skardu, and the plane was one of our old decrepit Fokker aircrafts.
I am from Pakistan, and being a manager in an office, I have often been criticized for being "too friendly" and "too frank" with my subordinates. I always reply the critics that I do this so that my assistants and subordinates do not hesitate to correct me when I am wrong. I have a team and I want to improve and utilize its skill. Thanks God... my team never disappointed me and my department is considered the best performing in the company. After watching these kind of videos, I am happy that what I do at my workplace is not a bad thing.
I have 15,000 flight hours, 10,000 wide body Boeing and I never fail to learn something from your videos. Excellent graphics and illustrations!
Thank you Russel, that means a lot to hear from someone with your experience. 💕
Every one liked your comment 🧑✈️
You just wanted to brag, typical pilot. 🤣
I want to become a pilot in the future, whats the hardest thing to learn in the cockpit and what is the hardest part of flying? I need to learn for my future self
Not gonna lie, but if you've got that much experience but are saying your learning from a TH-cam channel is a worrying thing to hear!!!!! What airline do you fly with? so I can avoid it like the plague
The only thing I’m asking myself is, how this captain could have survived the previous 25,000 hours.
Maybe he had a bad day, perfect storm
@@SuperWinback
Taking a sip of an opened beer and realizing it's piss is a bad day. Killing everyone aboard an airplane because you can't get over your own ego and feel the need to berate the sh*t out of someone in an attempt to make yourself feel better and more superior is a way of life, not a bad day.
The plane flew him.
@@FireOccator Jokes aside, it does seem like he was used to relying on as much automation as possible to reduce the effort required from him
its cultural with Indians and Pakistani to be snobbish
The dynamics in the cockpit reminds me of what it’s like in the hospital as a junior doctor. The senior doctors can be vicious to the level of making you wonder if it’s worth it to stay in this career.
Try being the patient with a thousand hours study and full grasp just to be refused the proper test or treatment based on absoultely no info other than the patient already knowing what to expect having already been through the knee jerk diagnosises and them refuted... while in agony and refused the working meds for mind clouding useless for pain and far more dangerous seiaure meds.
@@ThirtytwoJ yeah because I’ve never been a patient in my entire life. Doctors never get sick, yano 🙄
@@ThirtytwoJp
@@ThirtytwoJ You know, both of those situations can suck at the same time
Having worked in a hospital for a few years now.. I've met maybe two people who were actually nice. 99% have horrible attitudes and are nasty to everybody around them.
The belittling didn't just kill the guy's confidence, it also over-inflated his own. He had confirmed in his own mind that he was the best, he was invincible, and the rules didn't have to apply to him because he was the expert and knew better. So, he started going rogue. This isn't just about the failures of becoming passive... it's also about the dangers of becoming over-confident.
@JoosPander BlackAmerica Do you have any peer-reviewed articles to validate that? Because that sounds like some racist bullshit.
Very good insight.
I think it's very likely that it was exactly as you say.
The captain became confused in a challenging situation, and couldn't admit to himself that he needed help. And certainly not the help of the lowly first officer he had just ruthlessly berated.
Of course, people in positions of leadership and power who behave like this towards their subordinates in a chain of command are always trying to salve their own personal inadequacies.
Don't think the culpability is 100% on just the pilot though, its corporate.....how surely they are able to measure these things over time? This was mentioned around the 29 min mark also.
Confidence wasn't the only thing it killed.
This is the best narration verbally, technically, and cinematically of a tragic aero incident. I am a retired instructor pilot of an A330 and I can say this can be used as excellent training material. Kudos to you!
What they said
I think he is, or was, a pilot trainer of some sort in his career. I love his videos he does a really good job explaining things in a way that a non pilot would understand
@@user-sx1fg7lc3c I believe mentour is a line training captain or along those lines he’s mentioned it before.
The show, Air Crash Investigation, would make great training material as well. Air Canada Jazz even requires their ground crew to watch a Season 9 episode as part of de-icing training.
Not only that I like Petters accent!
As a pilot for a major airline, I wish we watched your videos during recurrent annual training. You really paint a picture of the complete accident. You bring up excellent points, one of the most important being the CRM that is fostered in the cockpit, or lack thereof. I feel this captain had a toxic, anti authority attitude and the only thing that could have saved this flight is if the FO had been trained to be more assertive and take control in critical situations, and essentially saved the captain from himself. Such a tragedy. Thank you for making such great content- you’re making the skies safer.
Several videos MenTour has done show that things might have been different if the copilot had spoken up, questioned something. Likewise, there're some amazing videos covering captains who are totally power-hungry loons. Both can prove a disaster.
It is not only valuable for pilots , similar circumstances occur in many places .. like crisis in cloud infrastructure management .. very similar
I’m now in my 30s. A 60-something senior berating me like this…I’d have kept my head down too. Probably would’ve only mentioned something too late, after minutes of anxiety.
I dont think the simulator training includes the kind of situations where questioning the authority is the right way forward.
@@cristianstoica4544 I think that a difficult situation should be set up in the simulator and 2 pilots who work together left to sort things out, with no external input.
It would provide valuable information for the airline of what is REALLY happening on the flight deck of their aircraft.
Needless to say, the positive as well as the negative lessons should be learned.
One point that you will always see, is that with situations such as when 'Sully' saved all those lives, he ran everything past his first officer, to check that he had not missed anything.
I had my friend in this flight he along with his whole family perished that day just because someone thought they knew it all. He was about to get married and I didn’t believe when I read his name on the list of deceased passengers and still can’t believe he is not with us anymore.
:( sorry to hear this.
So sorry for your loss, rest in peace to all on that flight (except the captain)
was the he was getting married to called Romaisa?
ALLAH maghfirat frmaye, aameen
dont know bro@@haffman56
Crying about how the FO would've felt seconds before his death. He knew he and 150 others were going to be killed because of the man sitting next to him and worse, because of his own pacificity. He was pleading for his life yet still not empowered enough to take controls. Probably one of the saddest and easily most preventable accidents I've seen.
The FO gave the Captain lots of input and opportunities to avoid this accident. The question to me is how could a Captain, this useless be Captain? A pilot this dangerous is many years in the making and usually the product of management turning a blind eye. Blaming the FO for not being assertive is fashionable these days and gets management off the hook.
Exactly what I thought. There were 150 people aboard that aircraft, of whom only one knew what was about to happen, and he had the flight controls in front of him and did nothing. Human culture must be an incredibly powerful force, that can overcome a person's natural instinct for self-preservation 😔
Yep
@@philipjamesparsons real question is why isn't everyone calling the captain a murderer? it's evident that he wanted to die, he even forced the plane down in its final moments for no reason. the fact that people can even watch this and not unanimously conclude murder is absurd.
@@advancedlamb just confused person it seems, Co pilot should have force taken control, declared it to airtraffic control and called for assistance from cabin
As a nurse for forty years, I can draw parallels to this situation in the healthcare environment. Your channel is truly one of the best on TH-cam.
Was SaR and Disaster Response for nearly 12 years, i can agree and honestly i think it applies to any job really. Degrading your subordanants is dangerous and stupid, ALWAYS build them up never tear them down. Destruction of confidence can be a slippery slope leading to people either becoming angry and irrational or withdrawing into themselves and becoming unwilling to learn or speak up when they see a problem.
@@KilerkRazorclaw Can’t disagree with you there. I once had a boss like that, he was duty manager in our department which meant he was second in command. When I was new, I thought it was personal until I saw him tearing into my ward partner. (We were cleaners in a hospital and there were two of us in the ward.) Afterwards when he’d gone back up to the office I asked about it and she just said he was like that way with everyone and that if I got caught into one of his tellings off was to just say “yes sir” then ignore everything he just told me and carry on doing it the way I was trained. And yes, we do have to be careful. We have a cleaning solution that involves dropping a dispersable tablet into a bottle filled to the appropriate line with cold water. And the cold water part was important because if you drop it into hot water it releases a chlorine gas. Go figure.
After awhile I thought about it and decided that it was much less aggravating to simply be a bit more alert and that way I could usually notice if he entered my ward and take evasive manoeuvres to avoid him, usually by ducking into the nearest toilet, office, behind the nurses station or even bail out of the ward entirely and embark on a journey to the storage and supply area to grab a few things our cleaning cupboard was running low on.
Admittedly though that approach nearly backfired because he noticed that on the rare times that he went into my ward to specifically find me, he very seldom actually could and was forced to leave a message with the nurse in charge or my hapless partner. That led to accusations of me not actually being on the ward doing my job. The only reason it didn’t backfire is that whenever my supervisors went to find me to do random spot checks during my shifts, I was always there, easy to find and diligently working. Looking back on it now, I think either he, my supervisors, or both figured out what I was doing-particularly when my partner noticed the accusations and asked me directly about it and of course I confessed to her… and then we both started doing it. We even found ways to warn each other-usually by making some unique noise that slightly abusing our equipment makes or by hand gestures.
It seems like a lot of effort to avoid one aggravating manager, but honest to god it got to the point where he could irritate me just by walking by. When the day came that word came down the grapevine that he was leaving I was concerned that I was being pranked but nope, and receiving that news led to what was the happiest shift I’ve ever had at work. But yeah I have sympathy for that poor first officer because he didn’t have the evasive options I did.
Lol, to be stuck in a tiny flight deck with my old deputy manager for hours on end? 🤯I don’t think both of us would still be breathing by the time the plane landed. 😉
I worked in television for 20 years, an arena that attracts more than its fair share of narcissists, egomaniacs and sociopaths! The toxic bullying in that cockpit broke my heart, and was sadly familiar to me in my former work in television.
So often the last people who should be given power over others, are the very people who get it. And of course they pursued that power in order to abuse it, and those unfortunate enough to find themselves answerable to them and their vile, sadistic conduct.
My heart breaks for the first officer, whose last hours alive were gleefully made miserable by that monstrous Captain. No doubt he had a long history of workplace bullying. In his sixties, I believe his fragile ego was threatened by a younger man, so he enjoyed the chance to humiliate him to elevate his own status (in his mind, though in no one else's). It's no better than schoolyard bullying and it's totally unacceptable.
If only he had been reported before for such conduct, his career as a pilot could have ended - and all those people he killed with his vile conduct might still be alive.
The poor interpersonal professional communication does have parallel associations to Dr's.
Don't let it happen
Must be very hard for the families of the victims to come to terms with the fact that they lost their loved ones because of the over-inflated ego of a captain. Utterly heartbreaking.
Agreed. In simplest terms, they lost their loved ones because of one guys fragile ego. In every action the captain made was an attempt at saving face in front of his Junior colleague even though disaster was imminent. If you make a mistake admit it. Don’t make three more mistakes trying to cover your ass. Let that admission be one of your greatest lessons taught to your junior colleague.
Not to mention this captain was probably too old to safely operate a plane.
I'm amazed by the mindset of this captain. A mix of massive arrogance and massive incompetence. Incredible.
@@TheGrandGanon That always feels to me like a shaky assumption in principle, but in this case I can't help but wonder if he truly did have some cognitive decline from aging...
@@AnimeSunglasses Statistically at that age they're likely are in decline. Where in most jobs the amount wouldn't be an issue - when operating a plane it's introducing too much risk.
His arrogance got every passenger and crew member killed. What an infuriating accident! I've seen this in so many different industries. You get that one guy with all the experience who thinks they are above everyone and just does as they please. "Screw the company policy, I'll do it my way" all the while belittling a newer employee. Absolutely infuriating!
Indeed
Actually, the FO should have done something... anything. His cowardice is equally to blame.
@@johnneal00 Ideally, the FO should've taken over, but under the circumstances, with the captain belittling him and undermining his confidence, I can't blame the FO at all for not doing so. This tragedy was the captain's fault.
Very common in the subcontinent, horrible crew culture. was there in other Asian countries as well, but changed
@@johnneal00 It wasn't cowardice, it's just how the culture was. Back then, you just didn't question the captain. His word was law, and you don't dare talk back to him. You get hardened war vets that don't take kindly to some rookie questioning his decades of experience. This accident, plus a few others brought about major changes in the training culture that now gives the lower ranking Pilots the confidence to speak up without fear of repercussions. Had the FO spoken up, yes this could have been avoided, he just did what his instincts and the culture back then said to do.....nothing :(
I had been doing well in my flying training, doing several cross country solo flights when unexpectedly my instructor said "I'm coming along for the ride today." Anyway to cut a long story short, I had of course, got quite used to the traffic pattern and the headings/distance before turning. I was on downwind when my instructor told me to turn in a direction that was totally wrong. I immediately said "Sorry Jock but that's wrong" he replied "most excellent! but don't be sorry your reply should have been that's not right or that can't be right. I just wanted to know if you had the confidence to tell me what I said was wrong. You have learnt another important lesson today, and one I don't want you to ever forget" A valuable lesson indeed and one that did stick with me.
Should have told him, "well I'm not sorry to tell you you're wrong, I'm sorry that you are!!""
😂😂
Not a pilot, but my in-car driving instructor did this sort of thing towards the end... she'd tell me to turn the wrong way onto a one way street or tell me to make an illegal turn, lane change, etc. She wanted to see if I'd obey her or the traffic laws. (I followed the laws.) This reminds me of the study by Milgram about blind obedience to authority - we are somewhat programed to obey those who have authority in any given situation, and willing to act in a way that contradicts our own training, conscience & values.
My father did the same when he was teaching me how to drive. Excellent lesson, everyone needs one.
@@DominikPinkas My dad did the same while teaching me to fly & while teaching me how to drive back when I was 12-13 yrs old. Best lesson I ever learned, and it stuck with me over the decades. When I taught RF engineering in college, I did the same with my students near the end of the course.
Instructor gives incorrect order....oh ...I was just testing you.....bs.
Just in case anyone is interested in the real probablity of what happend on this flight: When I was Chief Pilot Safety for PIA, I received a confidential report from a F/O who told me how, an otherwise genial captain behaved in an arrrogant manner on a DC-10 flight from Paris to Frankfurt. The next part of the flight was from Frankfurt to Cairo. The capt was fasting during the month of Ramadan, and he broke his fast at sunset, when they were descending for Cairo. Cairo was renovating the main runway so no aids, except for a locator NDB beacon on approach was available. The capt was instructed by ATC to come over the airfield and join a downwind circuit for the runway in use. During the final turn for approach the captain saw two parallel lights that he thought was the runway. He rolled out of the turn and lined up in the post sunset desert haze. The copilot ( who had been trained by me) was always told to use ANY available aid for reference, even if it was not usually used for an instument approach. He had tuned the Approach beacon and it showed that the runway HAD to be at right angles on the left. The captain ignored him. Fortunately there was a dead heading DC-10 captain on the jump seat. When thy reached 500ft AGL the copilot yelled "Cars!" --they were approaching a road!The captain did not respond,The Jump Seat captain shouted at the copilot to take over and he seized the controls and opened power to pull up. The captain seemed to be in a trance. With the guidance of the other captain the copilot carried out a makeshift let down over the beacon and landed safely . This happened in the late 1980s . ANother report came in about BOTH pilots on an F 27 falling asleep while fasting. I banned fasting and flying and the CAA followed our example. It is my belief that the Air Blue captain suffered from hyoglycemia (low blood sugar) caused by fasting. His fellow captains told me that he was very religious and had asked for a day off after praying all night and planned to fast the next day. He was picked up for that flight due to a pilot shortage, and probably continued with his fasting program , as it was a short flight.After the first turn to join a bad weather circuit, he most likely developed tunnel vision as he did not respond to any warnings carrying on towards the hills--and when he finally did, he panicked and turned left , not right--straight into the Margalla Hills. The Karachi A 320 crash occurred on the last day of Ramadan. My guess is that both pilots were fasting and were in that same euphoria induced tunnel vision. No pilot could have made those stupid mistakes in their right minds. I sent a message to the Inquiry Accident Investigation Board and also briefed the top brass of PIA. Strict measures were brought in (like I had done 25 years ago) and there have been no such incidents since the Karachi crash. The saddest part was that it was not necessary to fast and fly from a religious point of view. In the lectures that I gave to point out the dangers of fasting and flying, I pointed out that 1) Fasting is excused while on a journey and 2) A fasting day missed can be made up on another day off when not flying. This had nothing to do with age or Alzheimers, Dementia etc. Air Force pilots on a very early morning training flight were know to have accidents because they did not feel like eating at that time--the equivalent of fasting. For every Air force flight, the commander of the mission sits with his pilots and EATS before flying.
Thank you for sharing.
This makes a lot of sense. Hypoglycemia can paralyze the thought process. If the captain was fasting at the time of accident, then this is the most probable explanation.
keep the religion out of it your envy is so clear beside it's not your business to tell people when to eat or not read the law that you said that you are aware of, beside i checked with my collegues about this info and guess what you are a liar so next time dont lie its bad for you
A very real common sense
You are spot on sir. This is what I thought regarding the Karachi A-320 crash as the pilots were reported to have been fasting.
While this is _kinda_ believable... you will NOT develop tunnel vision from not eating for two days lmao... furthermore he was actively arguing with his copilot, which doesn't seem like a trance to me.
More than likely, since you mention he was very religious (hence conservative), is that he was just an arrogant old uncle that could not stand being told they're wrong by a younger person, even if it means them making stuff up just to be right (when they know they aren't)... but which resulted in loss of life in this case. Tragic... Knowing Desi culture, I instantly knew what this was about when he started scolding the young guy and him calling him "SIR" every three seconds....
Read my other comment for the full explanation. But basically if you've seen the show "Chernobyl" it's exactly that 3.6 roentgen scene - a veteran in his field, but because of that too arrogant, and perhaps due to age, incapable of making the RIGHT decisions. It's a deadly combo. Always stay humble, and if you can't function properly, don't work.
Shocking... I‘ve been flying for airlines for more than 5 years now. I am convinced your videos will help me identify threats and prevent accidents and incidents. I think you‘re doing a great service to airline pilots with your videos!
Yes... Always be prepared for everything, even your copilot going full Andreas Lubitz on you. As a mere passenger I have a habit of always touching the aircraft while boarding, asking it silently to deliver me to my destination in one piece and preferably alive. I always pay attention to the safety briefing, I know where my exits are and if seated at the emergency exit, I know how to handle the door. But I can't pat the flight crew for good luck, I just have to trust them to do their job. Having watched almost every episode of "Air Crash Investigation" hasn't helped. And no, I'm not afraid of flying, it's the possible 200G impact with a hill or a forest that makes me somewhat nervous.
I am no pilot, but for what I've seen good CRM seems to be one of the most if not the most important factor in preventing accidents in general.
@@TTFerdinand Excellent post.
Dear Lima, I'm a still living old bold pilot. I think every commercial pilot should have a minimum of flight time every month in a light aircraft! So you can remember how to fly! A Cessna 150 or old Taylor-craft taildragger is fun! A ball and attitude indicator and a compass are most helpful! I hope this advice may someday save you and your passengers! Db Cockpit management is the key! Enjoy your flying career, I did!!! Db
@@robertgoodwin5393 I 100 percent agree with you. Unfortunately I have decided to put my single engine piston hobby on the backburner for now. With a newborn and a Longhaul/Shorthaul job there is just no time and money for now... The good news is, flying visual approaches is highly encouraged in my company...
I binge watched the Flight Channel for a while, often after night shift, and after a few beers in I'd fall asleep while watching. One day I awoke to a terrain, pull up warning and almost pissed myself.
😂😂😂😂😂
🤣🤣🤣
Hahahah
😂😂😂
*PULL!
UP!*
🏔 💀😅
I can just imagine my dad RIP who was an airline captain saying, " This captain is not fit to drive a horse cart, let alone fly an A321". RIP to all the victims of his incompetence.
Horse cart? Try a hula-hoop!
I wish they made more captains like your dad. Sorry for your loss.
I mean, it was cultural/systemic too. Stop with the ‘sir’ deference, take the controls, and shout “my plane!”. You don’t win prizes for politeness, just an early grave.
What an infuriating accident. Heartbroken for the FO and, of course, all the passengers. Calling this preventable is a gross understatement as the captain had to go out of his way to manufacture a crisis before completely failing to respond to it properly. So sad that the FO could have done something but the captain belittled and insulted him enough that he felt totally helpless and out of control in the final moments. I hope the passengers never knew what hit them and died at least not feeling the same kind of terror that the FO experienced. What a tragedy
They definitely did not feel a thing. I can guarantee that.
Part of pilot training needs to be refusing intimidation tactics. The captain committed murder/suicide.
@@jeremysmith9694 We all should be so lucky.
And why the captain pitched down in the last seconds??? i’ll never understand that
@@ok-jw8px The plane and the F/O were shouting "Pull Up!" The a--hole was arguning with everybody, ground controller, C/P warnings, F/O warnings, just confused as hell. Ignoring company protocol with only a year in company showed whoever hired him is too blame, too. He might not have had Airbus time at his old carrier.
Being a Pakistani from Karachi (where this flight originated), I lost acquaintances in this tragic accident and even then there were rumors that a lot was brushed under the carpet like the fact that the pilot stayed awake all night before the flight etc. In reality (and as you have mentioned) the main issue is the culture of cutting corners and safety lapses and unless we are willing to learn from such horrific losses nothing stops more accidents from happening.
Sorry for your loss!
Rules are not for Pakistani pilots, and culture FTW !!!
Very valid points, and if there have been corners cut, and inadequate training in responsible behavior, it is possible that authorities may sweep deficiencies 'under the rug' as you say, to save the focus pointing at the authority charged with the responsibility to monitor and set standards.
The fact that the report was extremely half-assed makes me think the problem isn't just with the airline, but it's structural. Pakistan sounds like a very corrupt and unsafe place to live.
The non-aviation culture of some countries like the US encourages self-destructive behavior like this, largely because there's always someone who profits from it. A million deaths from covid; they don't learn from mistakes -- they embrace them as the standard.
I was a firefighter/medic in the states and I can attest at how common this type of behavior is even while bumping down the road with a patient on the verge of death. Makes for a terrible learning experience and the loss of confidence in a newby is astounding. Thanks for taking a stand and glad it’s not as commonplace in the flight industry.
I worked for n individual who exhibited all of the negative aspects of this captain. I am convinced he was actively trying to break me down, so I have enormous sympathy with the FO in this case.
Yeah, you will not be a good captain unless you remember how it felt to be a first officer.
@@MentourPilot I think the mentality of these folks is rather, "I had to endure this when I was younger, so now I have earned the right to do it to someone else". Plus, people who grow up in a culture of bullying often develop impulse control problems later in life.
@@petrairene and it’s a dumb attitude, like surely if you have empathy then you’d truly understand what it’s like in that position and would never want to put someone else through that
@@ZombieSazza Unfortunately these types of macho culture breed male narcissism. And a narcissist will never have empathy with someone below them.
@@ZombieSazza empathy is often whittled down by mistreatment and achievement. "I've gone through that, and look where I am. Im doing great and I am great. Therefore, if I do this thing to someone else, I am doing something right."
It's horrifying to think of what the FO was experiencing internally in the final moments. What an absolute tragedy.
From what we can tell, the FO hadn't lost any (or just a little) situational awareness - but was afraid to takeover controls.
If he would have taken control and the CAPT didn't like it - the Airbus fly-by-wire system has a design feature, that allows a pilot takeover sidestick priority and to ignore the inputs of the other sidestick, if needed.
This system works on both sides, so either pilot can keep the autopilot disconnect button on the sidestick pushed, which will give that sidestick priority over the other one and the aircraft will ingore any sidestick inputs from the other side as long as the button is pressed down.
If that CAPT would have become angry at this point and wanted controls back, the only way that would work (in a technical manner) is to SOMEHOW get the FO to stop pressing the button (yank the FO off his sidestick or knock him out...).
If that button is not pressed by the pilot in "control" and the other pilot gives sidestick inputs at the same time, both inputs will be added arithmetically (e.g. left side full down + right side full up -> plane doesn't change the attitude).
In both situations, the pilots are made aware of that by aural warnings ("PRIORITY LEFT"/"PRIORITY RIGHT" and "DUAL INPUT") and a switch in front of them lighting up for a visual warning.
@@marcel1416 Oh that’s actually really good to know, thank you very much for the information. I had been wondering about that for awhile now. I was aware that pilots are meant to challenge the other when it becomes dangerous and take control, sometimes saying “my aircraft” but I wondered what would happen if the first one didn’t relinquish it.
Not knowing about that system, about the only solution I could think of was a mean right hook if you’re big and strong enough for it, or delivering a sharp kick to the balls if you aren’t. Either way the first one is probably going to let go of the controls. 🤣 I like your solution better.
I would have take control of the plane, and the bewt the captain into a bloody blob of broken bones
Such an incompetent pilot shouldn't even have a driver's license 🙄
Hopefully he realized he was responsible for killing over 100 people.
The immensely crushing regret as he realized that he could have saved his own life, it only he'd acted sooner…
Man I remember my instructors having WAYYY more confidence in me than I had in myself. I always felt like I was being convinced I was better than I was, meaning I pushed SO HARD to prove them right.
sounds like fantastic instructors. Still havent managed to start training yet but the sheer amount of stress has to be insane. Im a trucker .. use d to extreme stress but just the thought of communicating with ATC while trying to land sounds insanely stressful
Maybe capt was suicidal.feeling no self worth due to age.
I am an ergonomics engineer and a human factors engineer. Making the student comfortable with communicating with the teacher and building confidence in the skills that the student has and is developing, is the correct way to teach!
@@sharoncassell9358 If that was the case why take 151 innocent people with you ? Plenty of ways to take your own life without including others in that plan.
Then they are natural teachers. I’m an educator and that approach right there is EXACTLY how to handle most students that cause problems, especially in middle school and high school. It’s a time when a lot of us struggle with self confidence in general and by that age if they have been labeled a “problem student” they’ve leaned into that as a coping mechanism. It’s amazing how many can become better students with that confidence in them and the expectations being set high (but only reasonably so-still within reach). Then recognizing the successes and using mistakes as a teaching tool. I really don’t believe just one teacher is likely to change en entire life trajectory (I’ve heard the stories and have my own favorite teachers that you better believe I’ve reached out to to thank now that I’m in their shoes) but something that has to be built by instructors as a team. BUT even one is better than none!
I’m not nurturing by nature and can be snarky, but I do love my kids and WILL keep trying for that semester I have them to build confidence (I feel like art is an opportunity to work on life skills in a more relaxed environment so that even if they hate art and get stuck in my class they’ve at least learned SOMETHING) because you’re exactly right…once they start to realize the tasks before them are something they really CAN handle they push themselves to prove it.
It has been 13 years since this air crash. I had lost a dear cousin brother on the flight, I was fortunate enough to spend the last night with him at his house.
I am so thankful to mentor pilot to bring out the details of the incident to the grieving families.
May Almighty Bless you.
Keep up the good work.
saad , kahan se ho ap?
@@hamzahaseeb9219 Pakistan
It's not allowed to pray for blessings for a non-Muslim. Pray for his guidance, instead.
@@xenomorphisisdilage472 His cousin brother is non Muslim?
@@hamzahaseeb9219 He means Mentour. Allah may bless whom he pleases at any time, what's wrong with hoping for mercy from the All merciful?
There are many parallels between the work of an Anesthesiologist and the piloting of an aircraft. I have experience with both. The culture in the cockpit described in this episode is exactly what I witnessed in medical school at Indiana University in the middle 1980’s. A large minority of the professors were not satisfied until the student being questioned was entirely humiliated. Fortunately, my pilot training experience was quite excellent. My CFI seemed only interested in helping me become the best pilot I could be. Thank you for a particularly well executed video.
That’s interesting to hear Brian. Thank you.
The medical sector can gain much by learning from commercial aviation accident avoidance procedures theory
There’s a brilliant book on this, called the Checklist Manifesto by a general surgeon named Atul Gawande. It highlights how well aviation has learned from checklists and how physicians make excuses that medicine is too complicated to formulate checklists. Gawande is one of the creators of the surgical safety checklist which is used around the world now before every surgical procedure. I believe Malcolm Gladwell has also highlighted CRM issues arising from hierarchy.
I'm a med student and yes, there are some consultants that will stomp you into the ground. I remember one instance of being questioned on ward rounds, I was able to answer but then he started asking questions at the resident's level and when I couldn't he chastized me in front of the whole team and patients. Luckily for me, the interns and residents saw what he was doing.
@@pranavmishra5541 Checklists do have a place, but that place is not everywhere. When resuscitating a patient do we do a time-out and confirm that we are, in fact intubating the correct patient as evidenced by their hospital ID and a signed consent form? No. It is self-evident that as the patient is having CPR performed this is the correct patient, unless we already have in hand a valid do not resuscitate order and if this is so then the first action is to stop performing CPR. Do we confirm the site for central venous access when in an unstable patient we now have only one IO, multiple failed attempts at peripheral access, and a blood pressure of 50/30? No. The site is a central vein - any central vein. Right or left is irrelevant if the vein is patent and the wire advances freely.
Medicine differs from aviation in multiple other critical ways, one of which is that in medicine the only time you have two physicians of the same specialty managing the same patient at the same time is briefly during change of shift. Most frequently in medicine there is only one person licensed to practice medicine and surgery touching the patient at one time. In contrast, within the cockpit of all large transport aircraft both pilots must be legally qualified to operate the aircraft. Single pilot IFR only exists with smaller aircraft and Part 135 operators. The abbreviation "CRM" is still used for single-pilot IFR, but the wording is different and the practice is very different from what is practiced by part 121 crews. A different implementation is needed also for medicine, and even within medicine it would need to be implemented far differently at a rural critical access hospital with only one physician and one nurse versus an urban academic hospital with every subspecialty available in-house.
I feel so sorry for the First Officer who, although having far less flying experience than the Captain, would probably have developed into a great pilot. If there are other bullying Captains, like the one who was "in control" here, they should take note!!
A great video Petter.
As someone who used to fly on this flight as a passenger, for work (Karachi-Islamabad), I am very familiar with the area and the hilly terrain where we used to also go for trekking (Margalla Hills). It was a tragic tragic accident with so many lives lost. Thank you for making such a an excellent video for non pilots but aviation enthusiasts.
@Arshad Altaf - Are reports around incidents in Pakistan generally this short and incomplete by the Pakistani air safety board institution?
@@Amped4Life Yes agree. Some of the reasons: hide corruption and their incompetence to implement regulations related to air safety; cover up their nepotism; and recruitment of personnel not suitable for key technical positions. In short, myriad of issues.
@@arshad8170 try
@Arshad Altaf Thank god you weren't on this particular flight! It must be pretty strange for you when you heard about this accident with the knowledge that you frequently flew this flight.
@Hal Colombo??
I still remember this day. Rescue operation was an even bigger challenge due to inaccessible terrain. The plane crashed deep into the hills inside deep forest. No road access. None of the hiking trails leading that way. Sky Pouring down like non-stop. Thankfully the new airport is now far south west of these hills with a lot of clear area.
yeah I saw the place, you can just stand on the road and see burnt hill on the other side of ditch, impossible rescue thing
I think the captain being 60 and already mandatorily retired from a another airline on age grounds had something to do with it. He felt 'threatened' by the younger pilot and was trying to reassert himself, with tragic results.
Yes this accident was very unnecessary.
61
a good teacher is like a satnav: if you take a wrong turn, it simply tells you how to get where you want to go. this captain? he thought he knew it all and wanted to be 'da big man'. and so many people died as a result. there was no other reason behind this tragedy
May have been a well covered up suicide too
I was a F/O for 16 years and a Captain for 27 years. My experience was Captains like the one in this accident are weak and probably dangerous.
One of the reasons the report was so limited in it's scope was that the airline industry in Pakistan at the time was a mess of fake and completely missing qualifications allowed through the system by bribery, cronyism, and intimidation. I have no knowledge of the qualifications of the aircrew in this situation, but a 2020 investigation found 1/3 of professional pilots registered in Pakistan had fake or fraudulently obtained licences, with Pakistan International Airlines, the parent company and controlling operator of Air Blue being highlighted as having problems. Out of the 860 pilots in the PIA/Serene Air/Air Blue operation 262 were found to never have taken a piloting exam and held fake credentials. As a result of this, PIA is banned from flying in both EU, US, and many other authorities airspace with most PIA flights now operated by foreign charter firms.
Taking the state of the Pakistani airline industry into account, it is likely that pressure was put on the investigating agency by officials to limit the investigation merely to Air Blue Flight 202 and not look into wider issues due to the damage to the reputation of Pakistani aviation that would result. There were 5 further major crashes before the report on the corruption within Pakistani aviation were published in 2020.
Pakistan truly is a failed state; how disappointing
Ah, now that makes sense. I'm not surprised at all. Thank you for the information.
As I was flying from Casablanca to Cairo I was a bit concerned about a few things I saw!
The person next to me said, what I found rather chilling, "If Allah wants us to get to Cairo, We will get to Cairo!!
Ok then! Enough said!
We did make it to Cairo without incident! (And I'm still happy about that!!!)
I have just remembered that Pakistan also has nuclear weapons. But I am sure the situation is completely different there.... right?
Was?......
Hi, I lost my Job as a 737 Captain in New Zealand due to Covid. I used some of your systems videos to help study for an upcoming Command interview which was successful. Keep up the good work.
@Blue Penguin we make ATC software and our team managed to get a hold of an ex-ATC to help out with the project as a domain-expert. It would never be possible without the Covid downsizing I think. Last I heard he is training to become a pilot now that the situation is normalizing.
sorry to hear that! was it with Air NZ?
@@brittanyshaw3156 since when did air NZ fly 737s?
@@neonic691 I believe they used to a while ago. I guess it can't be air NZ then since commenter said it was due to covid
@@brittanyshaw3156 yea
I can relate a lot to this, not as pilot but as a truck driver, I didn't die but we ended up clipping the barrier because his ego was to big to give me the controls when he was clearly tired. This attitude should not be allowed in any industry, specially aviation with so many lives at stake.
I'm glad to hear you didn't die, I was really worried for a second there! But seriously, it's stunning to imagine how people can put ego above common sense in these situations
I work in Safety/Compliance at a trucking company and was a driver before this job. It amazes me every time when I have to call a driver about their foolishness and I'm met with "I've been doing this for X amount of years, blah blah". That's when mistakes happen, when you're so arrogant to think you know everything and there's nothing left to learn. Just a couple days ago, a guy turned over going too fast around a curve...he had over 20 years of experience...you'd think he would know not to take a 40mph ramp going 68mph with a 40k lb load but here we are 🤷🏽♀️
They're also known as assholes.
When you said the recording stopped, I could see your pain, I can see your passion and your genuine empathy for the first officer in particular. A very well presented video made all that much better with your genuine connection and understanding of the cockpit.
In traditional and hierarchical societies such as India and Pakistan have, this problem of seniors putting down their juniors in not so subtle ways is particularly acute. Deference to authority and especially age is a given and this becomes problematic especially when the older senior person also happens to be wrong and refuses to see/admit his/her mistake. Even a polite and firm pushback from a junior could spell the end of a career. That's why it's always " Yes Sir !, Yes Sir !!... Three Bags Full Sir !!! "
I know. I create these videos to show just how dangerous that attitude can be.
Is there not training to stop that its 100's of lives at risk. One ego vs one person? I know what my answer is and I'm not even a pilot. Senior captains should know that the co pilot is trained and also knows how to fly the plane. Listen and evaluate what was said can help in any situation
@@renierpretorius3425 no training can overcome culturally embedded behaviour.
@@arnoldhau1 The company could encourage the reporting of this type of bullying and then step on the toes of these seniors. I mean, there are voice recordings in the cockpit, any junior officer has proof if it has happened. The companies have to make sure that this is kept in check. And to sack repeat offenders.
Was wondering about that, thanks for your input Anand!
Interesting. This was 2010. In January, 1982, I was a 4th year medical student at GW in Washington, DC. I was doing an elective in Forensic Pathology at the DC Medical Examiner's Office. I was there on the day of the Air Florida accident. Even then, long before I got into GA I had an interest in aviation. I don't think I will ever forget that and the subsequent days when the bodies of the pilots and passengers were brought in.... Ice cold and smelling of Jet A...
I eventually read the NTSB report. The First Officer commented during the roll out, "It doesn't feel right." He could have aborted the take off but chose not to. It was this accident that brought the psychological factors impacting CRM to bear.
Yet over two decades later in this incident, it is as though nothing had been learned from Air Florida. It is absolutely astonishing that the FO had been so shaken by the prior grilling that he passively let the Captain doom not only himself but all the passangers.
The only move here was to say, "I have the controls" and clear the terrain and execute the missed approach per the procedure outlined on the approach plate.
Tragic.
The senior pilot having that attitude shouldn't be tolerated no matter how many years of practice he might have. That kind of passive aggressive attitude isn't useful to anyone as nobody will learn anything from this. It's not a way to instruct anyone.
This series is so cool. I’m not even a pilot. Just somebody mildly interested in aviation and I have been bingeing this series. Excellent work!
Same here, it's awesome content
I’ve always wanted to be a pilot but never qualified. This channel fills that hole.
I never realized how important good leadership skills are when it comes to flying aeroplanes until I started watching your videos sir. Please keep them coming!!!
I judge the success of my leadership by what happens when I am on holiday or taking a few days off.
Also by how people who have worked for me keep in touch 30 years on.
bring back the flight engineer, the power of three people in the cockpit would defuse so many of these type of issues
I remember watching the crash news on TV. Our neighbor also passed away in this accident.
Unfortunately the findings of the investigation never reached to public. Thank you so much for explaining what might've happened that day.
The findings and the detailed inquiry report are actually public. It's right there on the civil aviation website.
It was only in the publication of a report in 2020 that the Pakistani CAA was given the opportunity to do a complete investigation of the Pakistani aviation industry. What they found was truly shocking. A third of commercial pilots registered with the Pakistani CAA had no legitimate qualifications, having either gotten a certificate via cronyism and bribery, or having had someone else take the exams under their name. The investigation into this crash was severely limited, likely because a wider investigation would have found that there were many pilots without legitimate qualifications. The Pakistani International Airlines operation which includes Air Blue and Serene Air as a subsidiary operators was found to have 262 pilots of 860 having no legitimate qualifications.
As we don't know the qualifications of either pilot in this incident, so we should them the benefit of the doubt.
@@DERP_Squad In this case the formal qualification of this Captain was obviously not the problem. He had all necessary licenses. With more then 25000 flight hours he was a very, very experienced pilot. The disturbing point are his shocking attitudes, not only towards his First Officer but also towards the Air Traffic Controller ("Let him say what he want") and also towards the Standard Operational Procedures of his company, neglecting all safety issues during a difficult approach in bad weather conditions in a difficult terrain - and the THEREFORE raising and unanswered questions: Was this only the personal behaviour of a guy who slipped through the Safety Management System? If yes: How did he slip through? Was it a problem of the Company Culture? If yes: A problem of the Company Culture of Air Blue, of his previous employer from which he switched over only a short time earlier or from both of them? Or are we facing here a broader problem? With this superficial report all answers to this severe questions must stay speculations. And THIS is the real risk in this case.
I'm amazed by the mindset of this captain. A mix of massive arrogance and massive incompetence. Incredible.
I am from islamabad Pakistan. And this was the first and most saddening disaster in this city's history. The hill which is the crash site is almost 15 miles away from where I live. Thank you for the video and more information that you shared on this devastating incident.
Absolutely chaos. Absolute chaos. Thank you for highlighting this. I hope it is used to train pilots because , as passengers it is wholly unacceptable to see this level of arrogance and incompetence and bullying. But it doesn’t end there. The accident report is shocking and unacceptable.
I work in an office, manage other people, but those videos helped my managerial skills in a big way. The courses my employer provided were garbage comparing to those real life learning events and videos! Thank you!!
Same for me. I think about "resource management" in a different way, especially when the team is working to a tight deadline or things are a little stressed. But of course the consequences if I get it wrong are nothing more than a late project, maybe lost revenue and an unhappy boss.
The captain had plenty of opportunities to correct the situation but continued to make things worse and worse. It reminds me of my dad's descent into Alzheimer's disease.
For the first couple of years he would seem normal and coherent most of the time but slip into dementia suddenly and without any outward sign. Even then he could converse and seem normal but he would totally lose track of what he was doing. This eventually resulted in him driving hundreds of miles totally lost but not even realizing he was lost. Someone heard about the situation on the radio and managed to get ahead of him and block the road so he would have to stop, and they talked until the police arrived, and even then my dad didn't know he was lost. He said he was on his way home, and that home was just down the road. But really he was in another county and was just about to get on the interstate going even further away. But he thought, honestly, that everything was under control.
And the captain in this story seems to be a bit like that, totally lost, but not even realizing it and certainly not about to admit it to anyone else.
I feel you, this happened to my grand-father; tho for him it was just dementia caused by old age (he was 90 when it became more than just "being distracted for a few seconds"). But yeah, it really struck a chord when the narration makes it appears that the captain behave like he knows what he's doing when he clearly was behaving wrong.
Could very well be the beginnings of some type of dementia for the pilot. That's also what I thought of. But it could very well also be the fact that he was retirement age and overconfident in his own abilities.
@@Pandidolod Once retired, "stay retired"., & be thankful, graceful, & ecstatic U accomplished that!!
I had the same feeling. This guy made catastrophically wrong decisions, when he got the terrain warning, he did not really react, and in the end he was descending instead of pulling up. That can't be explained with a domineering or aggressive personality, that is reduced mental capacity.
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Hi Mentour. Today is the 35th anniversary of the tragic catastrophe of flight LO5055 where all of the 183 souls onboard died. It was the biggest aviation catastrophe that ever happened in Poland. It happened when IŁ-62M "Tadeusz Kościuszko'' was doing an emergency landing with fire onboard, two out of four engines turned off, and without elevator and rudder. Plane crashed 6 km from runway 33 at Warszawa-Okęcie. Last words of this flight were “Goodnight. Goodbye. Bye. We die now…”. Me and probably many people would love you to create a video about this tragic flight.
Mentour, this is an incredible way of going through every single detail of an accident. Very insightful.
A video explaining if/when a first officer can override or overrule a dangerous pilot would be great. There are too many instances of dogmatic stubborn pilots making decisions outside of standard procedure and first officers being too timid/respectful to break rank.
Would be a very interesting topic
Crew resource management is pretty much universal in respectable airlines now. For example, If a first officer calls for a go around, the captain has to do it. Airlines aren't allowed to punish pilots for doing it unnecessarily either.
That was especially true with the Japanese crew of a 777 a few years ago during landing at SFO. If the FO had been more assertive, the accident and loss of life could have been avoided.
@@CKLee-rs4kl I think that was tied to Japanese culture of respecting your seniors no matter what, where in West that respect has to be earned. It partially earned from experience and rank, but there isint cultural incentive to follow orders rather blindly, or rather oppose those orders sturdy enough manner like taking over the controls.
There should be a test in aviation where it determines a pilots ego. And if they exhibit high egotistical patterns, should be fired from the spot.
There is no way that was a one time occurrence with the captain. He had to have been like that with previous flights and crew mates. They should have spoken up and maybe he wouldn't have been been flying that flight.
I'm sure you're right about that.
I totally agree.
The problem with people reporting this is that the person often feels too humiliated to even tell anyone ...
I imagine many people knew what a jerk he was ...
@Tom Foster true the first officer was a new guy - potentially nobody else would fly with him.... again points to issues within the airline.
Actually, there is more than just ego. It's a culture.
Living in a country where people ARE NOT EQUAL, in every sense of the word, I know how to identify a situation where someone is convinced he's always right, not because he doesn't know he is actually wrong, but because the culture is to never admit you're wrong when you are on a *higher hierarchical position.* Countries where you can imprison someone if you personnaly know some General or Colonel, countries where you can use public funds as you wish when your band of buddies are in charge of the head of staff in presidence and ministry, where you can pay justice to get away. Airlines in such countries are no different, a senior pilot cannot be wrong, you just get fired the moment you land to have the nerve to challenge the boss........... *til the day you have dead people like here.* Then, the band of dictators there will feint a low profile and designate the low ranked representative to fire, as responsible for the lack of professionalism in the industry, they will make some relative efforts (like comply with approach plates from now on and ban all custom made by the captains) and some efforts to behave (but that disgust them the most) ... This will last for a time, but, actually, nothing has really changed, the next junior that dare to question _authority_ will still get publicly fired, well before any major incident.
It is unlikely the other captains/pilots were not willing to fly with this captain. When both _high ranked_ are teamed, there is no scolding, no humiliation routine, actually, they have very good teamwork and very friendly with each over. The reason why they are that mean to juniors is, juniors are unaware that, to be "part of the band," one must cover up for the other, in case someone messed badly. It's no wonder why they need to show their authority in public, the culture must prevail and those who don't know yet must witness as much practial example as possible. In any job in those countries, not only in aviation, if you hear one day _"this guy is seeking for problems"_ from your boss talking to anyone but you, while hinting everyone to look at you, you know you're screwed.
Countries are not the same guys. There are deep disparities in terms of "equality" or "professionnalism over ego" interpretations. That's why Mentour said it's deeper than just a series of unfortunate events led by an overconfident captain. How come that captain, known for his behavior for years, like many others, not get grounded, and the investigation having nothing to say about ? => Cultural. On an obscure side, one can say it's a good thing he is dead, it's easier to blame the dead...
The good thing when it comes to those airlines in those countries, Covid (and the Ukraine war) has brought those airlines in the verge of collapse, that it becomes imperative to make efforts in professionnalism to remain in the competition. Also, many of those "old school" captains are retired or dead, so, less people to humiliate you (although it's not yet a nice work environment either, but, way better than before for sure).
@@melodiefrances3898 Yes, indeed. And if you´re a young pilot, only a few years in the business, probably in your first engagement as a "real pilot", and putted down as a "Know-nothing" by an elderly Captain with huge experience and decades of flying aircrafts, you easily take it yourself for real and believe it. And these guys are knowing this and a part of their huge experience is: "I can do whatever I want, nobody will complain."
But if you´re an Airline Captain with this attitude there can be finally a mountain in your way.
I felt 27:44 to my core. Goosebumps. Can't imagine how the FO must have felt during those final seconds knowing what was happening, but unable to do anything about it.
Can't help but pity him, the fact that he remained deferential addressing him as "Sir" right up to the bitter end in disbelief at what this condescending know it all Captain was doing.
I was 8 years old and about 15-20 miles away from where the crash happened, we got the news of this tragedy over a phone call from my aunt and even whilst watching this I got chills through my spine thinking of how everyone felt in their last moments.
The kind of stubbornness, arrogance and corner-cutting behaviour this captain displayed here (and I hate to say this) is an example that goes to show why we haven't progressed as a nation and to this day this kind of behaviour costs our people their livelihoods. May the Passengers and the FO rest in peace, Ameen.
I agree. It s a huge problem.
Great video. When I transitioned from the C-130E (not very automated) to the C-130J Super Hercules, the best advice I got from my instructor was "When the automation starts doing something you didn't expect, disengage all the automation and hand fly the aircraft. Work out why "the box" isn't doing what you expected once the aircraft is safe."
Viewers its important to read comments because you may have missed something or the person writing has a point you had no clue about. Don't just watch video and think you got this. It makes a world of difference . Sometimes you can answer questions other less informed persons want to know the answer to and
hear your side. Its intriguing.
There is definitely a cultural issue leading to abysmal CRM practices. Pakistan International Airlines 8303 crashed in Karachi in May 2020 and there again it all started with the pilot being abusive towards the F/O, sneering at his lack of experience, then disregarding ATC -- ended up touching down gear-up, then crashing on the go around because the engines were damaged during the aborted landing.
yes definitely a desi thing
talking shit to someone because of lack of experience is probably the dumbest thing ever. Did they start with 20k hours clocked or something lmao that's not how time fucking works. It is like shitting on a child for being young.
Don’t understand why these people hate F/O ? Aisi kya personal dushmani hai ? Karz leke whoopis nahi diya kya ? Matlab apne ego ki keemat masoom logon ki jaan se zyada hai 🤬
@@kkumar2618 the mentality of Indo-Pak subcontinent. Main boss hun, tu kuch bhi nahin. Translation (I am the boss, you are nothing)
@@CW130J Sorry to say but I had been facing the same culture here in Canada for the last 10 + years, so wherever the hierarchy exists the culture is the same regardless, maybe the word smithing is done more in this culture. but the core issue is the same
What blows my mind is that the "pull up" alarm only has one response, there is nothing to decide or debate.....TOGA pwr, and pull up, clean up the A/C if req'd, and if the pilot flying doesn't do it quick enough, then the co pilot should. It amazes me the hold that "class distinction" still has in some countries, to the point it will override your will to survive rather than question your "better".
The other thing that blows my mind is that a terrain alert doesn't disengage the autopilot. But maybe they felt that dumping the pilots straight into manual flying at a time of huge stress wouldn't be helpful. Perhaps it's better to let the pilots turn off the autopilot on their own terms, what should be only a few seconds later.
That was so bad, co-piolt should have taken control the plane and called for assistance from cabin to remove the captain or hold him Back and called radio for police/ambulance once we land as my captain is confused on how to operate the plane (not the first time it has happened where a crash has happened because Co pilot hasn't taken action)
the moment the captain did not respond correctly to the second critical ground alarm he should have said I have control of the plane and I am doing escape climb procedure do not stop me or this plane will crash
@@beeble2003 it has a button on the stick to disable autopilot and take "joystick" priority it's just a matter of setting engine power to maximum and pull back (no turning)
The Co pilot should have forced taken control in that manner (with verbal I am in control your currently having a medical problem let go of controls don't touch anything)
@@leexgx One of the worst things about this story is that there is a procedure for exactly that situation, I think. When the pilot flying is doing something dangerous for any reason, the other one says “my aircraft” and take the controls while the one causing the danger has to let go. But yeah I don’t know why they didn’t heed the terrain warning.
@@mikoto7693 yeah it still requires them to oblige..or pass out and let go :/
Dear Mentour, this story of the CRM training is one that really infuriates me. There have been so many, I’m talking dozens of accidents, where the culture of social classes, causes the Captain to berate or demean the first officer to the point that the latter, CHOOSES TO DIE rather than go against this culture! I’ve lived in SE Asia for the last 33 years and I’ve seen and heard of this attitude, with different grade in all the countries here, but I know this is not restricted to this part of the world. Every time the investigation produces suggestions to improve CRM training, for the last 20 years, to no avail, the same problem repeats! Because, in my humble opinion, the same culture, prevents the CRM trainers to give the message in the proper way and prevents the airlines from really enforcing it! I wold like to hear the trainers and company policies to spell it out close to “stop being an a**hole to your crew” and “nobody deserves to die for you to keep your pride”. I’ll be (tragically) waiting for the next “suggestion” to improve CRM training and get p***ed off again at the loss of lives, in the name of cultural idiocy.
Totally agree!!
This will have to be implemented on a societal level. We are not born with these prejudices and behaviors. We just grow into them depending on what the society around us allows and practices. So, you can't just do away with it at the office or in the cockpit and expect it to be the end. It has to be ingrained into us as a society that juniors are just as good as seniors. Our ideas can be just as good, just as intelligent, just as passionate and just as right as seniors.
Maybe inexperience might be a barrier, but inexperience and stupidity are two very different things, and seniors should understand that.
Unfortunately in all cultures on this planet the older generations think they know everything. They might know a lot, but they certainly don't know everything. Something their egos can't handle.
@warriorprince eh, please don't paint all elders with the same brush. Many of us relay to people that we don't know everything about any subject. Your statement is as if an elder would say all juniors haven't enough experience etc.
It's almost incomprehensible that a pilot could behave this way.
I wonder if he was stressed out to begin with and feeling insecure, considering the weather conditions and the tight manoeuvre he knew he would have to perform in order to land and the fact he had a practically inexperienced copilot he didn't think he could rely on, so he took his stress out on the poor guy and set out a self fulfilling prophecy.
As someone who at some point devoured the Mayday air crash investigation TV series, watched them multiple times actually, and who's read a pile of NTSB reports out of sheer curiosity, I'm so glad I found your channel! Keep these coming, please! This case is kind of similar to Korean Air Cargo flight 8509 where the captain overbanked the aircraft and the first officer did not take the controls and so they crashed.
One factor was the captain's attitude indicator showing level flight while the standby and FO's attitude indicators showed ~90° left bank.
Ego is a dangerous thing.
It definitely can be.
Sadly, it's quite common here in the Indian Subcontinent.. its a part of the culture.
Noone dare even ask anything to the senior, and a culture of imposing this superiority by asking them to do unnecessary things to juniors.
First officer Syed Muntajib Ahmed was a f-16 fighter pilot for 12 years in pakistan air force. then took an early retirement due to medical reasons. He retired as a Squadron Leader.
lost some dear friends in this accident. This is the first time I understand what actually happened on this flight. Thank you for another great video.
I'm sorry to hear this.
@@josephconnor2310 Thank you for your kindness. It was a long time ago yet it still feels like it was yesterday.
I'm so sorry for your loss
Aircraft Warning Systrm: "Terrain ahead, PULL UP, PULL UP."
Captain: "In a minute, hang on... I'm busy."
Terrain: "Am I a joke to you?"
Who won?
It's unbelievable though sadly I am witness similar arrogance (although not so catastrophic) from healthcare professionals daily.
age and seniority do not overrule facts and logic.
Terrain: You are going to regret that....
Pilot thought his own ego could intimidate the terrain into complying.
Terrain always has the right away.
i'm glad i learned the lesson from this video waaaaaaaaaaaay back when i played online rpgs. i already instinctively knew that instead of criticizing weaker members, i'd just give them an easier assignment with more autonomy, so they would feel they played an important role (and it of course, it wasn't not a major role, but it was still important) and feel like part of the team, while i actually micromanaged the main parties to do the heavy lifting. as a result, in my first week in command, i took a understaffed guild that had never won a single front in its 5 months of existence to take over 75% of the world in a single weekend. in terms of manpower, each of our members during that war had to defeat 15 enemies worth of opposition (that's not how it works but yeah we were 30 and we had over 400 enemies fighting over 4 castles, and we ended up with 3 of them). i was so fullfilled after that war that i quit the game the next day. i had nothing more to be done.
that game taught me lessons i took home with me long after the game died. they've already come into play many times in my professional life. if only this guy had learned that lesson too these people would still be alive
One of the most remarkable things is that the published/company procedure of short timed headings to fly the circuit was so simple. It's as if the captain was so focused on automation that he'd sooner load himself up with programming RNAV points and fly an automated route than take semi-manual control for the few minutes it would have taken to complete the visual circuit. But you tell us that the accident report didn't look into company culture, which might perhaps have been the most significant aspect of the crash. Really appreciated the clear presentation of the circumstances leading to this accident. Mentour sets the standard.
As a young person who desperately wants to be a pilot, this makes me very sad about the situation in my country regarding aviation
If you graduate as a FO, be the change you want to see. You are the next generation and can make the pilot culture for the better. Good luck
Being brought up in the subcontinent culture and as an Senior First Officer working in a regional airline, I can say that there ARE times when the cockpit CRM gets unusually steep. But it is situations like this which requires a FO to become most vigilant, diplomatic, and assertive when required.
Thank you Capt Petter for explaining the tragic incident so precisely, and also noticing the cultural issues in this part of the world.
There was Khatmandu PIA disaster in 90s because the FO couldn't challenge his Captain. This is cultural issue to core where not speaking up to elders, seniors is considered as respect and challenging seniors is considered disrespectful, plus it makes you bad guy in the system you work. Where seniors, not used to being challenged, rip you to shreds due to their connection with the management. It's shameful had any learning done From the PIA disaster, this wouldn't have happened.
Plus the accident report is shameful half hearted exercise to protect political screw ups on the ground as this Airline was owned by the ex PM of that time. Also, building of the new airport brought great corruption money.
Shameful, innocent loss of lives.
A life lesson even for non-pilots. Stand up for yourself, dammit! The earlier you do it (e.g. at the beginning of this flight) the easier it is. It can sometimes be done with a simple question, such as "Sir, is this a training flight?" or "Sir, is that the company approved circling procedure?"
This is always easier said than done. You can find yourself in situation when the more you fight, the harder wall you hit ,and you only put yourself in worse position each time. There's risk of being left with literally nothing but more mental scars, that no-one will even care later on either. School reality can be an example.
@@Mantek430 Yes, it can be easier said than done, but KutWrite is correct. Just DO IT! SAY IT! Feelings may be hurt and he might have gotten more pushback from the captain, but this is not a mere sport of cricket, this is flying an airplane with lives at stake. In this situation, one has no choice but to speak up regardless of whether it is easy or not.
I thought the same, I thought at some point the FO would have respectfully said, "Sir, is this a training flight? I'd rather concentrate on the flight since the weather is bad."
@@Mantek430: In my experience, the earlier you address it, the less you have to do. Further, once you've done so, you develop an attitude of self-confidence that predators shy away from. They always go for the (perceived) easy target.
The last time I had to use physical cues was a huge supervisor with the railroad I worked for. He wasn't my boss, but high enough to sling his weight around. He wrongly interfered with my job on the radio and I politely asked that he change frequencies. I didn't add, but he should have known the radio rules cover that.
He came striding into my office and opened the swing door past which only we operators were allowed. I instantly stood up, smile on my face, making eye contact and walked just as fast right toward him. I'm low-average height and build but the guy was a tower and in good shape so I glanced at his knees, just in case.
At about 3' distance, he froze, a surprised look on his face. I said "Sir, with all respect, please check the comm rules before you say anything." He stared at me, nodded and left. There were no repercussions and he never bothered me again.
He actually wasn't a bad guy, just maybe had a bad start to his day and felt embarrassed about being called on a violation on live radio.
I'm seeing some further lessons on episodes of "Mr Inbetween" on FX. Check it out!
The cultural considerations go beyond just the company culture. Its also a certain social cultural aspect where deference is given to seniority regardless of who is actually right. Very few people are able to stand up to their own right cause because they may not get support from the powers-that-be if it comes to a dispute.
'"Let them say what they want", making it clear that the Captain has his own plans'
Ironic. The high and mighty pilot thought of the traffic controllers as saying just what they wanted as he himself did and said exactly as he wanted, illegally. As if THAT is not infuriating enough he killed his co-pilot and all the passengers + destroyed an airplane in perfect working order and damaged the land and killed a goat. No dates for that pilot at sundown.
Excellent presentation. This is the most infuriating incident I think I've seen. It should be the first incident taught by CRM instructors by how important it is for commanders to recognise how critical their behaviour is in maintaining a safe operation. Just pitiful how this completely avoidable situation turned into a tragedy.
We have our own version of CRM in education and sometimes there are people that ether cannot or will not change. Either delusional, inflated ego, or compensating for something. We could use more training in how to respectfully but assertively work with others as well, because surviving that first year teaching is brutal and sometimes breeds a culture where “just keep swimming” is all they can do and it becomes a habit. Easier to now make waves, but can result in disaster.
What a heart wrenching and completely avoidable occurrence. Your message of always striving to build up your team members if in a leadership position is so very important and this example brings it to the fullest light. Thank you for another excellent video.
This kind of story is more infuriating than heart-wrenching to me.
@@christosvoskresye But anger is not going to change the situation. Education and retraining in a positive environment will. Everyone has bad days, but when one allows that to influence their behavior in such a negative manner, it is very easy to get behind situations, close needed staff down, and create scenarios where everyone ends up reacting to events instead of responding to them intelligently and an accident is much more likely to happen.
@GailPeterson This.
Unfortunately in an office environment the kind of strategy employed is the exact opposite: to ensure you alone remain indispensable to the job and ensure your own job security.
Procedures aren't there just to make your life difficult, they're just there to make your life longer. If a procedure is complicated there are probably a lot of very good reasons for that.
"Safety regulations are written in blood." - heard that on the Well There's Your Problem Podcast
Awesome video as always. Just one point: the main issue was not that the FO was not there at the time of need. The main issue, in this case, is that the FO continued to warn the pilot, over and over (up to the second they crashed) that the plane needed to be lifted up. And, up to the very last second, the pilot ignored him.
Since I learn so much from the background details you provide (how this airport is approached, autopilot modes, etc.) I would enjoy a series not about crashes, but the trickiest and most challenging airports and how they must be handled.
I also think a series on challenging airports would be very interesting. For example, my hometown Sarajevo is completely surrounded by mountains (one to the east is very close to the airport), the runway is rather short (2600 m) and the weather can be pretty awful in the colder months with lots of fog and low-lying clouds. Big airplanes can only land approaching from the west and have to take off towards the west too.
I have found this in other less critical fields, usually the ones that know the least and are the most incompetent act as if they know more and are snobbish towards other staff, worse when they do make a mistake they never accept the issue and don't try to improve. For me if someone acts like that in my business they won't stay for long, people like that are a cancer on your business and should be excised as soon as possible as it's rare that they will improve.
It's known as the Dunning-Kruger effect. In psychology this is a cognitive bias whereby people with limited knowledge or competence in a given intellectual or practical skill greatly overestimate their own knowledge or competence relative to objective criteria or to the performance of their peers or of people in general. Because they are unaware of their deficiencies, such people generally assume that they are not deficient. It is worse if the person is arrogant or entitled as they are unlikely to attempt to improve their skills.
You are right but problems here in Pakistan is that Most Airlines hire the pilot who get retired from Air Force due to completion of their tenor or get grounded due to some medical issues (pulling G Force, cant handle Air pressure due sudden maneuvers etc ) or being released from Air Force due to indiscipline behavior. Bcoz they are trained pilot and Air Force trained them , those pilot given priority over the fresh student pilot with less flying hours. And this is why for fresh aviation cadets , margin is very less to become hired for Airline. So when those (Airforce veterans) pilots get hired by Airline , they have Macho behavior in their attitude bcoz of being former fighter pilot. And these people have tendency to overrule and ignore the ATC instructions or First Officer (lack of CRM) , and due to this , Pakistan faced another crash Flight 8303 PIA , in Karachi when pilot ignore ATC instructions when he was not established vertically.
@@peterjf7723 I have worked in environments with this sort of person, and while it is bad if they are a colleague, it is worse if they are in a position of authority.
Complacency kills.
This effect also happens in the office day to day, corporate world too. But doesn’t cause deaths like this, rather: talent loss, bad products, incompetent decisions, disenfranchisement, distrust in teams, useless divas. Fun fact, it’s mostly done by men.
The passengers closest to the cockpit would probably have heard the EGPWS audible warnings. That would have been truly terrifying if those passengers understood the significance of them.
Only those who know what it is upto.. hearing your death clock ticking but can't do a thing is worst thing ever..🥺
landing with Ryanair : "Terrain ahead! Pull up!"
@@chrisb9143 only this was'nt Ryanair and Ryanair have never had a crash..
@@paulfogarty7724 It just FEELS like a crash when they land xD
Wow really, you can hear that through the cockpit door??
If I ever decide that I'm okay with being responsible for hundreds (possibly thousands) of human lives and get my pilot license, I just hope im fortunate enough to have a teacher like you. I Love the takeaways that you impart. There is no sensationalism, no blame or beating a dead horse. Just education and stressing the importance of CRM and teamwork and learning from the past.
I am the safety officer for our fire department. I am learning a lot about safety from watching these videos. Thanks, Mentor Pilot
I don't work in the aviation industry, however your videos (and in particular this one) have always shown good leadership examples. I am a team leader and building up colleagues to pull in the same direction is number 1 for me. and Second to that no matter how much or little experience someone has I've encouraged them to speak up and ask questions which in turn has built up their confidence.
People with the attitude of the captain works in all kinds of industry and we need to weed it out, because once the rot starts it really manifests itself and can ruin good culture.
Yeah right
Same, I’ve learnt a lot about team work in these videos!!
This reminded me of a crash, B.E.A. Flight 548, that took place in the UK, just outside Heathrow (I believe it's called the Staines disaster). This was back in the days before CRM when the "captain was god" and involved a highly irrascible Captain and a timid and passive FO. The FO had witnessed a highly charged argument between the Capt and other pilots over an industrial dispute and when the Captain made mistakes during take-off, was cowed into not speaking up. The plane (a Hawker Sidley Trident, being operated by British European Airways) stalled into the ground and disintegrated, killing all 118 on board. This was the greatest loss of life in an air accident in the UK until Lockerbie. The resulting report of this accident and it's causes, was one of the impetuses to start training CRM.
I remember watching that incident on _Air Crash Investigation._
@@JamesDavy2009 If I remember rightly, the Captain was incapacitated and the F/O (taking over) retracted the slats early, when the correct speed had not been reached. As a former Trident 1E captain , I can tell you that stalling a Trident (or any large jetliner) at low altitude is fatal.
@@sadiqjohnny77 Captain Key's incapacitation was the result of the fight he had earlier triggering an arterial event (most would call it a heart attack) caused by undiagnosed arterial lesions (atherosclerosis). It may have been Captain Key that retracted the droop flaps early thinking the lever he pulled was the flaps lever.
@@JamesDavy2009 Usually after take off, the captain calls for the F/O to retract the slats and flaps. In the Trident the slat and flaps lever were totally different, although adjacent to each other. If the slats are retracted when the proper speed had not been reached, amber flashing warning lights would illuminate in front of the pilots. Whether the captain or the f/o had moved the slat lever to "Retract" the flashing lights were perhaps ignored due to the consternation about the captain's incapacitation. This would not trigger a stall warning or activate the stick pusher. The flashing lights could e extinguished y pressing them--and then looking at a screen that told you what the problem was. In this case "LE Flaps" would show.
I can't fly a kite but am totally fascinated by your content. I have learnt so much because of your videos about aviation. Every video sends me down a rabbit hole of aviation research. Thanks for the awesome content!
I simply can't follow all the technical jargon in his videos. Most people who watch these only pretend to understand when he's taking about technical features and computer lingo. I'm not one of those people. I just fast forward to the end.
I am never going to be a pilot, but your talks about CRM actually help me a lot in my management position. so thanks for talking about it, you are the one that introduced me to the concept.
Ive never had respect for manager.. especially business majors. I deliver to a company now where ive seen some excellent (and some bad) management. The good managers listen to the employees and rely on them. They do occasionally have to remind people who push too hard but it's fairly rare. This is at a job that is dangerous, can be rough and with constant hardware failures. They work together.. the manager tries to get them what they need while of course having to keep his managers goals up front. Understand these folks have ZERO authority over me or my drivers. We view our job as giving them what they need (whether they know what that is or not). When shit has gone sideways and i see a good crew and one of the better foremen/managers is on duty i destress because i know theyll focus on solving the problem not kissing corporate ass. We've had employees.. and managers.. tell their bosses when we come in theyre taking care of us period.. because we take care of them regardless of what our boss says
Undercover boss displays this concept. You must trust eachother and form that temporary camaraderie to be able to get along well in the cockpit.
I used to be a pro-skydiver and students and inexperienced jumpers would do some really stupid things..., but we always tried to build them up to our level of safety as opposed to shaming them and shutting down lines of communication. And sometimes their fresh perspective was just what was needed in certain situations so the communication was valuable in the other direction as well.
I was HALO/HAHO and combat diver guy in the Army, and have jumped, and dived, with some real oddballs; there's an interesting "threshold of experience" where they go from excited/nervous, then feeling immortal and pushing the envelope, then eventually realise they need to mature and become more safe. The same with training shooters. I really enjoy novices, because their perspective is different; often their questions/inquires make me stop and think about how I'm communicating, or failing to communicate.
Now that I’m about to upgrade to captain, I find your videos to be pure gold. I have been following you for almost a year and I really have improved my skills!!! Thanks a lot!
We all know one thing- we’d never have this issue with Petter in the left seat. I’d absolutely love to be trained by you, and be FO any chance I got.
It seems to me the captain had a very lax attitude to following procedures and felt he knew better than everyone else - which was particularly telling in the way he acted towards his first officer.
As you say, it's important to build colleagues up, not tear them down (particularly in a position of power/management). Unfortunately, it seems that many people think this is the right way to work with others, at least from my own experiences.
His decisions in the final few minutes are simply bewildering. It's unfortunate for those on board he did not remain in retirement.
Sadly, some people feel they have to assert their (supposed) superiority by denigrating others they work with.
It's hard to learn anything, when you already know everything!
Bare in mind that a 2020 investigation by the Pakistani CAA found that a third of commercial pilots registered with them had no legitimate qualifications. Given the situation with the corruption in the acquisition of qualifications, it would not be unreasonable to think that a similar situation may well have been present in training situations, and a failure could become a pass if the student knew the right people or handed over a bribe. His berating of the first officer also suggests he felt the need to prove and enforce his superior knowledge of the aircraft and authority, which may have been a way to stop junior pilots who had better knowledge from calling his competence into question. While we don't know the captain's qualification status and I will therefore give him the benefit of the doubt, his decision to use the route planner instead of the company mandated procedure suggests that he was overly reliant on procedures and systems he was familiar with.
Further, an aviation culture in which submission to authority is expected, and corruption is rife would not lead to a situation where a pilot would feel confident in raising issues with the conduct of a senior pilot, and would likely stay quiet to protect their own career.
This is fantastic work as always from Mentour Pilot. I especially appreciate the team building lesson, applicable in a cockpit, an office, or even around a dinner table. Building people up and treating them with respect is not only the right thing to do; it can literally mean the difference between life and death. Thank you for that!
Cowards never save anyone, especially in less than friendly team buildjng type situations where you might actually have to use force on a uncooperative or incoheirant fool.
I cannot forget this crash just a few kms away from my home. This absolutely shook me to thr core. Thank you for making sense of that tragedy.
I remember reading up on this accident, your video brought the severity of the atmosphere on that flight deck to life. The FO was anxiously paralyzed the entire flight an absolutely chilling situation.
The background music and the intonation that your using to recount this situation really pulled me in. Thank you for having a high quality of atmosphere in your videos.
Thank you for covering this! I was always curious about what exactly happened there. I was about 12 years old when this accident happened in 2010. I remember being at Faisal Mosque at the time of the incident which is about 5-8 kilometers near the crash site (Margalla Hills/Damn-e-Koh), I vividly remember watching the fumes of the crash, Armed forces helicopters approaching the crash site, hearing the sirens of the ambulances and list of names of the people identified to be dead in the crash on the car radio.
could be YOU next time. do you abuse people beneath you...?
the degrading guy reminds me of my father, he always made humiliating comments, no patience, and made us feel like sh*t. It never works well, and it didn't for him either. I'm guessing that energy caused the issues here too.
Same
I'm considering he might have had a minor stroke (blood clot in the brain) after they turned towards the PDB-11 waypoint.
He becomes almost non-responsive, and acts confused from that point on, messing up with the autopilot like a complete rookie, even though he should know exactly how that works, with so many hours of flight experience.
I doubt there was enough left of him to autopsy, but his behaviour during that last minute does paint that picture of it.
Sorry man. 😢
@@StuffWriter what can you do? lucky draw of the cards. Life keeps going on. It's a test from God.
@@silvergreylion Not if you're getting nervous and impatient and frustrated at the same time while being confused because you were CERTAIN *you* could not possibly have been wrong. Jet aircraft is one of the most complicated pieces of equipment humanity has ever devised so far. That's partly why they're largely ran by computers and all kind of automatic systems. This is literally not the first time I've seen something like this either, with a few of the other highlights being that excessively drunk Russian pilot getting confused and crashing his plane (alcohol induced arrogance and overconfidence playing on the normal problems of alcohol and judgment/timing/reaction), and that one Saudi or Emirati I forget which flight that was the biggest chucklefuck bunch of morons ever. That one takes the cake honestly. The one passenger started a pot of tea in the luggage area iirc, started a fire, proceeded to fully engulf the entire luggage, the three very incompetent clearly nepotism installed flight crew was like a 3 Stooges routine, and they *even managed to land the plane like this* with the passenger area fully involved.
Everyone on board died.
The estimation was that because the flight crew never ordered a disembark and left the plane just sitting there on the Tarmac, all the passengers asphyxiated and everyone suffocated and then burned to death. Basically, do NOT ever pin your survival hopes on the orders of others. Everyone was trusting the flight crew to save them and basically, well it was the worst series of incompetence I ever seen.
So I think that, in consideration of all these videos, arrogance is equally as lethal as flying a plane blind drunk. It skews your judgment and renders inability to recognize the problem and take acts to correct the error. If you can't tell and admit that something is wrong, that something is not ever going to be addressed and may well kill you.
Since the captain hit the mandatory retirement age limit for one airline and went to a second company to continue flying, I wonder if he was in the early stages of dementia. Sometimes, in the early stages, dementia patients use this to cover up what they are losing. It would be interesting to find out if his abusive behavior was recent or had he always been that way.
It's probably a culture thing in honesty
@@deanbrown29 Maybe so but if so it would not be the type of cultural diversity I would want in the cockpit of a plane.
I remember one accident on british Airways on an aircraft with droops(similar to slats) where the captain was abusing his fo. Same with an B737 accident in sharm al sheikh
Interesting!
@@deanbrown29 Both IS always an option, and even more likely in a culture that already has this kind of attitude.
Thanks you for covering this accident. I still remember this morning and no-one could believe that this could happen. There were so many conspiracy theories at that time ranging from flying over no-fly airzone to attack from Americans. In the end in turned out to be an ego of a one man.
You’ve ruined documentaries for me now Petter! Your videos are so incredibly informative and well presented, with such depth of content, that most documentaries pale in comparison. I appreciated how you present the technical nitty gritty and assume your audience has the ability to understand complicated concepts. So many documentaries dumb things down, and lose so much nuance doing so. You’ve really become the gold standard for informational communication. Love your work!
How did that person end up as a Capt? Wow...
The more you work, the more arrogant you get. You have experience but also at 60+ your mental capacity actually plummets. Deadly combo. Have seen it so many times.
It’s Pakistan even a bus driver with some reference can be a pilot.
This video interests me a lot. My background was working in an operating theatre. They are different cultures to many places. A great deal of respect and even worship, is expected by surgeons and often anaesthetist. This reduces the partnership bond. The team are less likely to challenge and the team as a consequence in my opinion, the team cannot pull together as a team in a crisis. This means the dominant force (a surgeon or anaesthetist) in the theatre receives less help, simply as by this arrangement. He has in multiple ways elevated himself beyond team work. When things go wrong he shouts at the team with orders. This means the team become task orientated and therefore, only acting on specific instructions. Often later. If the culture was one where the leadership allowed independent thought. And have the opportunity to contribute then things are often different.
I have worked with people from different cultural backgrounds. They are very capable, but in some cultures, I have seen them not to be able to question anything without being ripped apart. A lot could be learned in operating departments from this video. But also alot from dynamics due to cultural beliefs that those in an elevated position. Are more elevated than they should be. That said in any culture where the power struggle is in place the one with the most power exerts the most force and that can lead to emergencies that can't be solved. Such as rushing the scrub nurse and closing the patient before they have had time to carefully count the instruments. Also by not expressing the plan with the scrub person over sutures and what they might need can later in the procedure overwhelm the scrub nurse or Operating department practitioner. I have to say in all my time in theatres it was never addressed and the blame for failing was passed down not reviewed as a learning event and therefore any attempt to explore the culture that has a bearing on outcomes. I don't know anything about flying planes. But I wonder how many lives are lost, merely due to attitude brought about from culture. It kills daily.
It's interesting how a retired captain even gets a job in a new airline. He should be enjoying his retirement and leaving his position to someone younger. Also, his hours of flying make him feel that it is ok to violate multiple procedures which led to this accident. It's too bad that the first officer didn't have the chance to fix all mistakes made by the captain cause he clearly knew what he was supposed to do in order to save this plane and everyone on board.
To be honest it's an organisational failure that such a captain reached retirement age. Someone like that has no business flying aircraft of any kind.
I’ve known of colleagues who retired from heavy airfreight flying with a major and went to another flying job because they made poor investment decisions, several divorces or have no life outside work.
As a recently instrument rated pilot, this is an appalling and bewildering example of a rogue pilot and a macho man attitude. This guy knowingly violates every single principle of instrument flying and being a safe pilot. Terrible.
@@acbulgin2 no, the person posted is.
Yes, indeed.
There could also be issues like blood sugar levels at play with the "captain" because that directly affects the brain's ability to process information. Happens all the time in car accidents for example. The other alternative could be the "captain" simply had a death wish.
Thank you! As someone new to leadership in a healthcare setting this was very eye opening.
Best of luck!!
This scenario has happened way too many times, even in Europe and the U.S. Korean Air had multiple incidents caused by domineering captains and submissive first officers. Fortunately, CRM training has gone a long way towards reducing such incidents.
The horrific crash in Tenerife was an example of this dynamic. The KLM first officer was too deferential to the captain and didn't insist that they not take off because they had not received notification that the PanAm aircraft had yet exited the runway.
@@edmondzeldin7036 In Tenerife accident, I agree that the captain should have waited for the final call from first officer before proceeding for takeoff. But in this specific case I believe the majority of the fault is of the captain. Also, the lack of radar infrastructure at the airport was bad too.
The issue is really Boomers and their general inability to see younger generations as anything other than children. They hold onto power and refuse to see the younger generations as capable of anything, or if they are, it's not as good as they can do it. So the younger pilot reverts into the mode of their parents scolding them and just shuts down. I mean I never and I mean never won an argument with my boomer dad. He simply ramped it up until I caved in because he was sure as the sun will rise tomorrow in his authority and agenda and it simply wasn't worth it trying to convince him that he was wrong. Not that he would ever admit it or take one word of advice from me in the first place. We hardly talk as you can imagine. He's still toxic even though I'm now in my 50s. In his brain, I'm forever 14 and nothing can change it.
And.. here we are again. Stubborn old fool and the younger co-pilot simply unable to tell them no.
There's a big difference between being an experienced operator, and being experienced at handling emergency situations and thinking critically.
Most guys who stay at a job for a long time don't really get any better at it, they just simply get good at being lazy and taking short cuts while appearing competent.
This captain puts me in mind of the Royal Air Maroc Express 439, that ‘I am superior in age and rank and therefore know better than company policy and procedure’ only this had such a tragic outcome which could’ve and should’ve been avoided
as a moroccan, that was the first thing I thought of
I am from Pakistan. This accident happened just a day after I returned from Islamabad by air. I still remember it and this video gave me goosebumps 😢 I even read the report in full.
Unfortunately in my country we come across such situations so often. There is no accountability. What is over is over. Innocent People keep getting killed because of others faults. The establishment is running this country as a business. They are happy because they are in command and there is no one to question, without caring where the country is headed. At this point in time the country is being run like that unfortunate aircraft 😢 taking wrong turns and going into descent
I'm amazed by the mindset of this captain. A mix of massive arrogance and massive incompetence. Incredible.
arrogance tends to cover incompetence.