Yep. We're building off of frontiers, which was built off of forces, which was built off of lost world. That's why modding these games has become so quick. The modders have had almost a decade to work with this engine.
The weird thing is, Sonic Lost World actually hid a great physics engine in there, with the snowball rolling stages. I get the sense that Lost World was probably pretty versatile but personally I'd love for them to start using the Superstars Engine for 3D games.
I'm still unconvinced that Frontiers was built off Forces. Unlike Forces and Lost World, or, say, Heroes and the other Jam Framework games, or the Rush games, I just can't help but feel like the two of them play too fundamentally different from one another. I could be wrong though, all it would take to find out is a look into the programming I suppose.
I only want this to happen if Sonic gets handled by multiple studios at once instead of just Sonic Team. The absolute worst thing about the last 2 generations of games is that every franchise that is handled by one developer gets one entry per generation with 7-10 year long cycles. Frankly, it's absolutely terrible. I don't want years and years of waiting for a new game. Have multiple studios working concurrently to fill each other's absence. Sonic Team mainline game in 2025? Notable spin-off game in 2026 and hypothetical Sonic Team 2 mainline game in 2027. A step further, the COD thing, 3 studios to allow for annual releases? Even better. One Sonic Team taking 3-6+ years per game? Nuh. I prefer unfinished and unpolished products over waiting that long personally.
The thing i desperately want, is acceleration to the Boost. If im boosting on a straight way or down hill, i wanna feel like I'm fast, not having to restart my boost because i feel like im getting slower. It happens a bit in shadow and a hell of a lot in frontiers.
Fair points. Personally, I kinda want future Sonic games to also give us a QTE system where we are required to press different buttons to succeed. Ever since Forces, we were only required to push the A button (or X button in Frontiers/Shadow Generations). I liked how Unleashed gave us the challenge of not only pushing the button at the right time, but also pushing the right button to begin with. If that makes sense.
Then there's the issue of mixing up inputs due to having hit one button way too many times. Like how X is mapped to practically everything in Unleashed day stages.
"Let me be garbage, and look like a moron" beautifully said. Modern Sonic games have always had this to a certain degree to certain areas. The skill ceiling is always going higher with the series, but the skill floor has been going down quite a bit too. Not as much as people would say - *I'm looking at you Paraiah* - but it is noticeable. With that being said, I don't think an entirely new engine is the way to go. Some people like the original boost framework, and some like the new one. I think the best option here is to just overhaul it. Lost World, Forces, Frontiers, and Shadow Generations are all in the same framework, yet they all feel different. I'm not sure how much further we can stretch it, but I'm sure there's enough left in it for older Sonic details.
The very first Sonic games, in terms of development at least, were always about doing the absolute most with what little you had to work with. The next mainline Sonic is currently in production and on every front, they’re building upon what was done in Sonic Frontiers with a higher budget, a bigger team, and hopefully more development time. With this, I hope to god they’re going to take this engine as far as they can and give it an unbelievably robust physics engine so I can experience the highest of highs and the lowest of lows like I’m Tony Hawk on crack *without* anyone holding my hand. And if this engine finally proves it _still_ isn’t enough to satisfy the pinball monkey brain that wants to laugh in the face of winged animals everywhere, then, yeah, retire the engine.
@God-xd1wr definitely. I still think it is possible, but if you can't, just do over. I'll wait the extra 3 years. Hopefully it's not another Lost World tho
Considering how much they were able to improve in Shadow Generations from Sonic Frontiers, like the player controls and item pop in being less noticeable. I have hope that things will only continue to improve with the next mainline installment. Which is something I couldn’t say a few years ago.
I wonder the kind of mixed signals Sonic Team is getting with Final Horizon having had way too hard difficulty to a point that it had to be nerfed, to then people saying "Let me suck" at Shadow gens
"Let me play your game like a moron while looking like an idiot". Couldn't be said better (other than maybe wording it better, but it made perfect sense in context)
i think the wall walking is mostly a nothing thing at the end of the day since the average player isnt gonna be doing that and its a far slower way to reach where you're going, costing you your S rank, however i do see where you're coming from i think its simply just because shadow gens was built off of frontiers' framework and that the devs clearly wanted to spend more time on more important than than worrying about if the player would be walking on walls slowly, but i absolutely do think they'll fix this for the frontiers successor
That's a fair argument. I've barely noticed that since I rarely just walk around, I'm mainly boosting and jumping around like a monkey in a jungle jam. Their priority was to focus on making this game look great esthetic wise, that controls were decent, polish all around, and a coherent story which worked since the overall presentation was great for me
My proposed fixes: Course-Correction: Let the player use the right-stick to shimmy left/right/back, refunding any lost speed if they hit an enemy on the noggin Physics: Boost should be an option after hitting a minimum speed, sort of like Sonic Advance 2, but with a button. Spin Dash: This just needs to come back. Enemies: Should have 3 kinds of weaknesses that can be targeted by a main move - legs (spin dash), chest (homing attack), head (bounce) Drop Dash: Dropping should have the ability to be angled, which would open a ton of design space for platforming
Explain the right stick to me cause I'm a little confused. You mean like in the levels or like white space, and if not in white space how would that work there if you have full control of the camera and enemies are running around?
My thoughts towards these ideas: - QTEs being perfectly done to get an S rank: I don't hate it, but I'd rather that be saved for a harder difficulty and not REQUIRED to get an S rank, especially since the idea is "anyone can play these games." Add a higher skill ceiling sure, but that shouldn't come at the cost of raising the skill *floor* too high, granted for the bosses I understand, but something like the bosses version I would say would be perfect for an "easy/casual mode" difficulty setting, the base game be the "normal" one, and maybe your idea for "hard/challenging" - The physics engine quirks: Yeah that's absolutely something that needs addressing, no questions asked - Rail grinding: Personally I feel like the boost on rails should stay the same, but have it be that if you run out or just NOT boost, you go back to a more classical rail grind balance mechanic, just add a tony hawk balance meter. That way you can do a thing of "do you spend Boost to past the rail grind faster, or do you save your Boost for the rest of the level by manual rail balance?" I do think that the existing type of "auto-rail" kind of mechanic needs to be relegated to either specific rails or maybe a shoe upgrade, or like with the balance thing, be more for an easier/casual difficulty setting - Raising the skill floor just a little/Let me suck at your game: I mean yeah, could use a bit more of that, but like I said, I feel like there could be a difficulty mode choice to mitigate that My main thing is let us customize buttons and not just choose what button the Homing Attack & Boost are on despite showing us an entire "move = button" list without being able to swap them. Like at the very least, swap what buttons "Chaos Control" & "Chaos Spear" are mapped to if having the Boost mapped to RT.
Agreed on the button mapping thing, it seems like some developers especially triple A don't let you customize your controls for some weird reason. I'm speaking from the Nintendo side since customizing controls is non-existent in their games, Nintendo is really outdated on this
One could argue S rank isn’t “playing the game” so much as “mastering the game” A and B ranks are more for those simply playing the game while S rank should take mastery of the system and controls as well as timing and execution.
Also on the PC version at least you can just go into the settings change the control scheme to custom and map the buttons as you please, I did that but putting boost on R2, chaos spear on square, chaos control on triangle and so on.
I'd honestly be down if Sonic Team followed the lead of RGG Studios, where a new full Yakuza game is released every few years, but smaller, spinoff games are released between those games to test, improve and gather feedback on their work before the next full entry. Make smaller Shadow Gens-style entries for other characters while working on the next big Sonic game.
I wish triangle jump was still performable in practically any corridor like in sonic heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog but nope they downgraded that mechanic to specific 2D segments 🙄 laziness
I have one issue with the physics too. When in midair, if you hold forward on the joystick, you lose midair momentum. Your speed slows down. WHY. Just make a toggle for it like in frontiers. Let me launch myself if I want to. Let me have an easier time at Spear Gliding. They'll probably end up treating Spear Gliding like the Homing Dash so just let me continue my momentum if i boost off the platform. Why do I have to let go of the Joystick to continue my momentum. I feel like I'm losing control of where I'm gonna land when I do that
@@Rusty_Spy yeah but in shadow gens and frontiers it’s worse than basically every sonic game before them. Just revert the air resistance values back to how they felt in the traditional boost, adventure, and classic styles and it’ll be fine.
When the only critique you have is "Let me be bad at the specific thing rather than being nice to me". That's how you know the game is in the right direction
I do wish I still had the ability to lean into curves on rails and get a speed boost out of it, would give you another thing to do on them and another skill-based way to cut your time. I'm not sure when was the last time they had that? Dreamcast SA2 or Heroes?
3:14 I would prefer if they were just removed. 10:00 I would also prefer if they just added the rail grinding of SA2 or Sonic Heroes, because I don't want rail griding to just be sidestep but it looks a little different.
What makes me optimistic that we can see changes like this, is how Sonic Team has been sculpting the Hedgehog Engine 2 over the course of these games. They cracked it open to make Frontiers work the way it does and despite that games many mechanical issues, Shadow Gens takes the linear elements and shines them to a glow. Frontiers 2 aims to do the same for the open world elements. From a game dev perspective Frontiers really was a tech demo- but now we get to see these tools refined.
There are two things that *really* bother me with this game that I don't see anyone talking about; Firstly, the damn homing attack STILL doesn't lock onto enemies off screen. Has caused me trouble numerous times. Second, the forces animations look so bad in comparison to the new ones Shadow Gens provides, it's quite a clash, those need to go if u ask me.
@@Neoniq41 there's no point in the game where shadow's animations look inherently bad, reused sure but there was never a time where i stopped and said "huh this animation from forces looks worse than this animation"
Something nobody adresses is the lack of items. Those were relegated to classic Sonic only from Lost World onwards and I miss them dearly. Shadow gens is specially egregious since it does have item capsules but they only ever contain rings and chaos control refills. I get there not being extra lives but... Where are my shields? Invincibility? Anything?
I think the thing is, while boost effectively renders you invincible, any kind of shield or invincibility is redundant. That being said, what if they retooled the speed shoes capsules to give you boost? Perhaps they could offer invincibility if they do the Frontiers style boost again. I agree with you that it's a feature I want to see come back, I just don't know how you'd integrate that into this type of boost gameplay.
@@ChannelPup I get what you mean but I'd still like the items even if they felt redundant simply because they're iconic and levels feel way too empty with just rings. Shields would still be useful, and same for magnet shields. Invincibility still protects you against stage hazards and projectiles that boost still takes damage from. And yes, they could retool speed shoes to give infinite boost for a limited time, kinda like they do in the racing games where they're essentially the golden mushroom from Mario Kart. I love the thrill of breaking a random box and finding a shield capsule inside, and the rush of getting speed shoes or invincibility and blasting to an epic jingle for 7 seconds. If the only thing I can find are rings, I get zero incentive to interact with stuff during the level since rings are everywhere anyway.
@@ChannelPup I wouldn't say that boost renders you invincible as there are still hazards and attacks that can harm Sonic and Shadow while they're boosting, it's more of a constant attack state where enemies just can't touch you or they die and they can't melee fast enough to hit you (though I have had melee attacks hit me mid-boost in Sonic Generations, Colors, Forces, and Unleashed). So shields and invincibility wouldn't be redundant. But yeah they could retool some of the shields to better fit the boost formula or open zone formula (I just hope boosting is more like Shadow Generations and not like Frontiers). Maybe an electric shield constantly refills the boost gauge slowly and extends the ring magnetism radius or the fire shield gives you more of a rocket boost like that one stage in the Frontiers DLC. Maybe the water shield turns the Stomp into a classic bounce attack. Stuff like that. Maybe they could even add new shields to fit the current formula.
not gonna lie I dont really want it to be like frontiers where its all open I want it like shadow generations where you have an open world to explore but the main thing Is still levels but not 6 zones more then 6 zones
Other stuff I'd like to see addressed: - Step up the difficulty, for shit's sake. Shadow Gens was so easy I barely felt any sense of accomplishment beating it, and I S-Ranked all stages without much of a problem, aside from Radical Highway. To go further, why even remove the life system entirely if the game is this easy? At least put an option to turn it on; - More interesting, difficult and varied QTEs. The ones we have are cool for the spectacle but they don't go well with replayability, which makes them completely jarring and pointless. Maybe something quite like Unleashed does the job. Make it so that, if you miss the first, more difficult one, you get an easier one that rewards you with less score and "less cool" spectacle; - Let us have other ways of building up speed, like whatever new mechanic that rewards skillful playing with speed (Idea: boosting for long enough slowly starts increasing your speed even more up to a higher cap); - More use of momentum would be very welcome, and I've seen so many people asking for this; - The OST. While I do enjoy Shadow Gens' OST, it's quite subpar for Sonic standards, some tracks feel too generic and forgettable. It's been this way since Lost World, with Frontiers being the only real exception
I can kinda agree with you while I dont think its that that easy like forces its just easy and has no challenge and sonic games have been like this since sonic colors everything is to easy and short. I want a game thats long and hard I dont care give me a sonic game that has challenges up to the level of cuphead. the ost of shadow generations I really like but I can say it could be better
I think one way to make quick time events more interesting it would be if they worked in a similar way to how Colors Ultimate's homing attacks does, giving you a bonus of some kind (like dealing more damage to bosses) if you manage to time your inputs withing a small time frame, and outside of that time frame you get a regular result or an absolute fail if you don't do anything.
To my knowledge, Shadow Gens was the last game planned to utilize Hedgehog Engine 2 (which debuted in Forces). There were leaks/talks or Sonic Team switching to UE5, which is much more suitable for open world games, and there might be coming a new physics engine with it.
I really doubt they're ever going to fix the physics engine. They've been told by the fans that we want slope physics through fan games and online discussion for years now! But I think them continually ignoring that issue, further stripping down the slope mechanics, and the success of Frontiers and Shadow Gens means to me they're never going to address this issue.
I think QTE's should be invluded in more sonic games however I'd handle them like this. There are 3 different paths based on how well you time the QTE, if you hit it perfect you get a fast high route. If you hit it but not perfectly you get a middle, medium pace route. And if you miss it you go to the bottom path which is the slowest route. I think cinematics/spectacle should also be in more sonic games
I'm that you are pointing these out as essentially nitpicks that one would only think about after playing the levels X number of times and doesn't really affect your experience as you need to go out of your way to find them, but they are nonetheless there. The spiderman walking on walls glitch needs to be eradicated. The framework for the game engine seems superb and just needs refinement. Also, the art style for Shadow Generations needs to be the norm now for Sonic games.
I would actually prefer if they kept using the original physics of Sonic Unleashed. I know it was Sonic was a little hard to control when plataforming, but Im pretty sure you can do some adjustments to make it feel a little tighter, more like Sonic Colors. If you analyze the physics of Donic Unleashed, you can see that it is the closest we've ever gotten to real 2D classic physics in 3D. You have slope acceleration and deacceleration, slope jumping, you are not spiderman, you have pretty good enemy bouncing, and you have to pull back when plataforming so you fan make that jump, even the slide kind of works like rolling. They basically had a whole system perfect to make a real physics 3D Sonic game, but they just decided not to do it because little Timmy thinks is too hard.
This might be skill issue on my half, but I'm either lucky in getting the wall run to work or just fall off after a literal second of trying it. I think i have a minor bug where the opposite happens, but i might just suck at wall running.😅
Keep practicing and you'll get better 😊. I noticed that just to run straight you have to have the stick at like 25° degrees to make it work which feels weird
People tend to forget sonic doesn't really work off of a physics engine. It's more or less the same engine they've used since unleashed, granted with more polish as time goes by. However at the end of the day The Hedgehog engine is MEANT to be a lighting engine. It's one of the main reason the games have looked great since Unleashed using certain techniques to make light bounce and reflect in a way you'd expect in life. This is kinda the main reason I have a hard time liking modern sonic games more. Anytime you go from simple running to a section that involves sliding, diving, or otherwise movement that's different has physics feeling different. It makes it incredibly hard to naturally be talented at every facet at each game without simply having to learn each one. If you ask me the classic games almost have more physics than the modern games, given how momentum was treated in them. It's a wild thought in itself.
Honestly I’d rather a Sonic game just have no QTEs at all, when there’s more time to make the bosses more intricately designed rather than artificial difficulty with more flashy stuff happening Stuff like how you can get the Metal Overlord finisher if you can chaos control at the right time. That stuff is more cool than pressing a button when the game says so
Sonic levels are more fun for me when a level is designed to let me speed through it through my understanding of it than it artificially pushes me through scripted segments
I only missed the first missiles button presses unintentionally because I was expecting the game to convert the button prompts to an Xbox controller scheme while I was using a DualSense controller so I thought it wanted me to press square instead of X.
Ik this nowadays is a mute point, but I *Hate* rail physics nowadays. Rails had more depth before but now it's boost, go left and that's it. Sonic heroes striked the balance of not so punishing (when your not just randomly flung off) and instead allowed for you to still tilt yourself for more speed without it being so detrimental like it is in SA2, while still keeping the accelerate button. Of course that's not that easy when the boost button is right there. But I'm so sick and tired of rails and rail canyon (in shadow gens) just being hold x and think every now and again. Rail grinding as a whole should feel more rewarding than "great I don't have to push forward anymore!" I'll even take the lost world red and green as long as it adds more depth than just "hold button and switch".
to be fair shadow gens mitigates these problems by actively switching it up every now and then, and there's way less of a reliance on them unless you're playing rail canyon though the rail grinding in the game isnt the games fault, it was built off of frontiers after all
@kaobunn true, there's alot of reaction based stuff that will get you off the rails. Or keep you doing something like the chaos spear challenge, but we really do need a revamp to allow for more.
I definitely think they should add more gravity into rail grinding instead of its more automated approach. It won't be that bad either, add a tutorial if you think newer players won't get it.
I think they shouldn't have levels focused on rails, unless it is done like in Sonic Lost World, where it feels like a Donkey Kong Country minecart level. It would also be nice if they added crouching on rails again
I think the QTEs should have been a little less generous in terms of how much time you are given to react. Maybe change it from what feels like 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds?
I’ll say it once I’ll say it again I swear every time I hear your intro I think that is the exact same piano sample used at the beginning of Britney Spears baby one more time
everything makes sense, only Railgrind I think is good as it is, because they want to transform them into dashpads, and this speeds up and makes it faster and more practical to navigate the world, I just feel that there is a lack of physics in the grind for you to be able to increase your speed further of the base speed. Even more so as rails are being used as fast travel, so they need to have some speed to not break your rhythm
I do love this game as well, slight improvements to physics in the next shadow outing will be appreciated, however I can say I enjoy that boost animation for shadow, I’d much prefer one where he still skates on his air shoes that flies forward, it works in the air but not on the ground. I’d also like to have a less gimmicky shadow game that doesn’t rely on doom powers as much, though doom spear and doom blast are just redundant, shadow has always shown the ability to throw multiple chaos spears as far back as the first game he shows up in, and doom blast is just chaos control to teleport to the enemy, the writer just thought that chaos control could only stop time.
I think the main one should be to stop the nostagia pandering. It's getting old. The reason Shadow Generations is great we got a new batch remade levels along good level design but even then the level design is based on already good level design and ideas of the past. Kingdom Valley is a perfect example. I would like 100% new ideas and level design but If they want to bring back previous locations, make say Green Hill a night time level like Sonic Generations did with the missions. That Rouge level with Night version Seaside Hill feels like a new level despite using exact same level with few changes.
I would like to add something with the physics, more of a mechanic. Like Pup said, add a limit to how fast characters should be going to go up a loop, incline, wall, etc. However, if we are playing with physics, then there should be an incentive to use them. The boost already makes you go at max speed, so it kinda defeats the point of physics based gameplay… Unless the boost becomes physics based, more like Sonic Advanced 2. But then, that limits it’s use like air boosting, it would feel sluggish to use the base speed and could lead to the acceleration problem like Heroes and Forces. My proposal is by adjusting the physics, the boost should have a speed cap (not making it slower, just having a higher max speed) and then after a certain ring threshold and keeping a non stop pace, the player enters a “Super boost” mode (debating if the player enters automatically or can be activated by sacrificing rings like Super Sonic).
This might be a hot take but the majority of Sonic players that Sega are focused on aren't bothered by any of these points. The physics aren't that bad. Automation is needed in a lot of loops because of how hard it is to control Sonic/Shadow at speed. You can see this in games like Spark the Electric Jester 2 & 3. No knock against that game, love it. Rail physics need to stay the same. Having to deal with balance AND speed will kill the fun factor for a lot of people. As for boost, don't like it? Don't use it. It would be impossible for Sega or any developer to make a game that's controllable with a game character moving that fast. F-Zero is close but hard as hell. SxSG is a great game, let it have its moment.
Although, this may be a reasonable nitpick on the physics of Frontiers and Shadow Generations, they are cleaning up messes that were bigger in Sonic 06 and Sonic 4 Ep. 1 and 2. Especially in Forces. And it is all to make sure that pacing of the story of game flows very well, while the action has time to breathe. Forces has better physics than 06 and Sonic 4, but the story bombarded the gameplay and it feels like going through the same stages on a totally different act from time to time. Frontiers, although a rough start in gameplay, but a rough ending story has wonderful story pacing. And all that is being cleaned up through Shadow Generations. The story flows much better with the action in Shadow Generations that Frontiers and there is a lot to unpack now that 50 years is still in play in the Year of Shadow 2024.
Difficulty is the main thing i think they should focus on. They seem to either go for baby mode or rusty nailboard mode. (sonic forces/Sonic Gens vs Superstars or Final Horizons/Unleashed, example). If they can get a curve similar to Shadow Generations with a high skill ceiling of Unleashed, that would be nice. I wouldnt mind more punishing LEVEL design as long as controls are tight, kinda like how Rush had a lot of death pits, but controlled very well at least IMO. Actually id say frontiers is a good example of a good middle of the road difficulty with a gradual curve (as long as you were on Hard) BEFORE Horizons of course, which is like going from the tutorial level to Eggmanland instantly lol
I think the boost can still work, I used to be an advocate of getting rid of the boost too thanks to Sonic Project Hero where the game is built on the physics engine and relies on Sonic's momentum and physics to get through. Which is awesome. But maybe boost can still work. What Sonic Team needs to do is prioritize control, the physics, and not automat everything and let Sonic go through, if not tweak his physics. Not give up and just auto it
@@emeneensj445 the traditional boost would absolutely ruin the physics because they’d be useless. We need a nerfed boost to be able to work with a good physics system. Either by reducing how long the boost lasts and recharges by a lot or by doing something else like my idea from before.
I want them to bring back a sense of speed that feels REAL. Shadow Generations keeps using fake speed lines to simulate a sense of speed instead of sticking with ramping up the FoV and bringing the camera closer to the player like Base Generations does. They think that would make the player feel like they're actually going fast but instead, it really does the exact opposite. Especially when the boost isn't that much faster than -jogging- skating.
I ended up retuning the controls to match Shadow Gens' hub world a bit more (albeit with a higher top speed) and I gotta say, new favourite way to play.
@ Technically yes but since each game was made on top of each other. Forces was made on top of lost world frontiers was made on top of for se and shadow gens was made on top of frontiers so some stuff will carry out.
The thing is, they started rushing these games more and got lazy with polishing up the physics engine since both Frontiers and Shadow Generations feature the boost, so they thought players wouldn't really notice and it wouldn't harm the game. But yeah, I agree, the games should have better physics abd at the very least not let you walk through a loop with low speed as that would just be cheating, not that many would do that anyway. Another game which I think let you do that is Rise of Lyric, pre-patch at least. But I think this is still at least overall better than in the Adventure games, where those didn't even let you enter a loop in another way than intended, as doing that completely broke the scripting and would most likely send the player flying to their death.
How about all of you guys play srb2 and see the classic gameplay in 3d there might not be loops but they got everything else right Plus sonic team sees the classic gameplay style in 3d as too hard for a player to get into so they take control away from the player alot their motive is to make games everyone can play
I disagree about QTEs. I think they should be a spectacle using player input, but doing something beyond a control scheme. Because of this, they should be simple instead of sudden test of memorization of joypad layout (which is a pain for anyone new or changes between Xbox and Nintendo controllers which swap letters). QTEs can also severely hurt people who have bad controllers or issues with their bodies. You have no idea how many people couldn't finish Sonic Forces because they were filtered by Triple Boost mashing. They just couldn't.
The most surprising aspect about this game to me is that it took me 10 hours to come across a notable glitch. This isn't just a Sonic game, it's a SHADOW game. See what happens when Sonic Team isn't rushed, SEGA?
They should stop having crucial plot information be exclusive to pre-release videos that aren't even in their respective games. It's stupid to have the player be easily able to miss out on big parts of the plot because they haven't watched a random TH-cam video that was uploaded months before the game's launch. It's been like this with Frontiers, although it didn't become of as big of a problem until Superstars. Yeah, I agree with the QTEs, I think they just remove them if they're not going mean anything for failing them and pressing a button in a short amount of time doesn't equate to skill at the game.
I just wish we can get sonic adventure 3 same formula as the adventure seriesjust add boosting with collecting rings and fix up animations add a few new ones , longer stages to Match how fast the speed characters are , and multiplayer where we can actually play people in real time . We get that we have the best sonic game ever
The one thing that most frustrates me with recent Sonic games especially Sonic X Shadow Generations is that 3D levels have 2D sections. Can we just have a level that is only 3D and a level that is only 2D. We also need a lot more playable characters each with their own campaign like Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, and Silver.
Shadow Generations was at least slightly better Act 1 is full 3d, no 2d, and Act 2 is fully 2d, no switching. Only level that breaks this rule is Radical Highway, where act 1 AND 2 have no 2d
Shadow Generations literally does what you just said. Act 1s are entirely 3D and Act 2s are entirely 2D (except for Radical Highway Act 2 which is entirely 3D)
In other words you want them to cater to you specficially and not account for people who don't get a hard on for things being obnoxiously difficult. None of these are problems with the game this is you not liking that they have to think about other people that are'nt like you. No I do not want a punishment for missing a quick time event especially if it's already a hard boss to begin with nor do I want to fail at grabbing a rail because I did'nt get on at the exact right spot, that's not fun that's tedious and frustrating.
If you think about Channel Pup, for some reason, I feel like one of the only games that had the physics right for the boost gameplay, is Sonic Dream Team of all things.
Do you mean skating? And by that extent do you mean it should replace the hover for boost or just take place of the regular skating. If it's the latter, then I agree partially. I do think the skating animation is best there, but it looks like way too much effort when he can boost.
The physics in Sonic games have been totally broken since Sonic 2006. It's crystal clear the fans don't care about it, as the have eaten up anything SEGA shits out for them ever since.
Honestly I'm still down for a Sonic game that focuses on pure momentum physics, and your right we've eaten up anything that had a less focus on it. But physics ain't the only thing that makes up a Sonic game. I'm speaking from playing games like Freedom Planet 2 and Spark the Electric Jester 3 which have provided that for me. After Frontiers which I did not like at all, I just wanted a fun, visually pleasing, stylish Sonic game. And honestly this game was perfect for me since I've never played the original Sonic Generations, and Shadow Gens is just as fun. But I do hope we get a pure momentum base game one day, but games like Freedom Planet 2, Spark the Electric Jester 3, and Penny's Big Breakaway are great games that scratch that itch
Yep. We're building off of frontiers, which was built off of forces, which was built off of lost world.
That's why modding these games has become so quick. The modders have had almost a decade to work with this engine.
The weird thing is, Sonic Lost World actually hid a great physics engine in there, with the snowball rolling stages.
I get the sense that Lost World was probably pretty versatile but personally I'd love for them to start using the Superstars Engine for 3D games.
@@ChannelPup Indeed. Strange, isn't it?
@@ChannelPupyeah, I’m honestly shocked how few mods there are for lost world.
I'm still unconvinced that Frontiers was built off Forces. Unlike Forces and Lost World, or, say, Heroes and the other Jam Framework games, or the Rush games, I just can't help but feel like the two of them play too fundamentally different from one another. I could be wrong though, all it would take to find out is a look into the programming I suppose.
@ internally they are built very similar, some values may have been changed between games, but they all use the same base framework.
What they should do is be given longer development cycles for a normal game.
SXS generations is hopefully the start of that
To be fair sxsg had to be released latest november for the movie
Increasing dev time won't solve this issue. They just fundamentally don't understand how to implement proper physics.
@@bbguy2245 it was in the finished state for months. That's the kind of polish we should always have
I only want this to happen if Sonic gets handled by multiple studios at once instead of just Sonic Team. The absolute worst thing about the last 2 generations of games is that every franchise that is handled by one developer gets one entry per generation with 7-10 year long cycles. Frankly, it's absolutely terrible. I don't want years and years of waiting for a new game. Have multiple studios working concurrently to fill each other's absence. Sonic Team mainline game in 2025? Notable spin-off game in 2026 and hypothetical Sonic Team 2 mainline game in 2027. A step further, the COD thing, 3 studios to allow for annual releases? Even better.
One Sonic Team taking 3-6+ years per game? Nuh. I prefer unfinished and unpolished products over waiting that long personally.
The thing i desperately want, is acceleration to the Boost. If im boosting on a straight way or down hill, i wanna feel like I'm fast, not having to restart my boost because i feel like im getting slower. It happens a bit in shadow and a hell of a lot in frontiers.
"They need to STOP making the characters eyebrows so small!"
-Channel Pup
Sure, I'll take bigger eyebrows on 'em! Look at the TSR models, they're great!
@ChannelPup They need bigger foreheads
Fair points.
Personally, I kinda want future Sonic games to also give us a QTE system where we are required to press different buttons to succeed.
Ever since Forces, we were only required to push the A button (or X button in Frontiers/Shadow Generations).
I liked how Unleashed gave us the challenge of not only pushing the button at the right time, but also pushing the right button to begin with.
If that makes sense.
Then there's the issue of mixing up inputs due to having hit one button way too many times.
Like how X is mapped to practically everything in Unleashed day stages.
@@lokic-ug2scthat doesn't make sense. All other moves turn off when in QTE's so that is issue wouldn't happen.
@@AYTM1200 Unleashed had the Homing Attack, Boost, Airdash and Airboost mapped to X. Force of habit.
@@lokic-ug2sc how does that affect QTE's ?.
@@AYTM1200 I've been screwed over in Unleashed so many times because I'm constantly hitting X by mistake out of habit.
"Let me be garbage, and look like a moron" beautifully said. Modern Sonic games have always had this to a certain degree to certain areas. The skill ceiling is always going higher with the series, but the skill floor has been going down quite a bit too. Not as much as people would say - *I'm looking at you Paraiah* - but it is noticeable.
With that being said, I don't think an entirely new engine is the way to go. Some people like the original boost framework, and some like the new one. I think the best option here is to just overhaul it. Lost World, Forces, Frontiers, and Shadow Generations are all in the same framework, yet they all feel different. I'm not sure how much further we can stretch it, but I'm sure there's enough left in it for older Sonic details.
The very first Sonic games, in terms of development at least, were always about doing the absolute most with what little you had to work with. The next mainline Sonic is currently in production and on every front, they’re building upon what was done in Sonic Frontiers with a higher budget, a bigger team, and hopefully more development time.
With this, I hope to god they’re going to take this engine as far as they can and give it an unbelievably robust physics engine so I can experience the highest of highs and the lowest of lows like I’m Tony Hawk on crack *without* anyone holding my hand. And if this engine finally proves it _still_ isn’t enough to satisfy the pinball monkey brain that wants to laugh in the face of winged animals everywhere, then, yeah, retire the engine.
@God-xd1wr definitely. I still think it is possible, but if you can't, just do over. I'll wait the extra 3 years. Hopefully it's not another Lost World tho
Pariah is kinda bad at what he does tbh
@WeAreTheEggmen22which videos???
@@Hyp3rSonic the American Sonic video
Considering how much they were able to improve in Shadow Generations from Sonic Frontiers, like the player controls and item pop in being less noticeable. I have hope that things will only continue to improve with the next mainline installment. Which is something I couldn’t say a few years ago.
I wonder the kind of mixed signals Sonic Team is getting with Final Horizon having had way too hard difficulty to a point that it had to be nerfed, to then people saying "Let me suck" at Shadow gens
Yeah, I feel there's an extreme to that when it comes to Sonic Team which is a little worrying
@@derple8524 baby mode vs rusty nailboard mode, no in between lol.
"Let me play your game like a moron while looking like an idiot". Couldn't be said better (other than maybe wording it better, but it made perfect sense in context)
i think the wall walking is mostly a nothing thing at the end of the day since the average player isnt gonna be doing that and its a far slower way to reach where you're going, costing you your S rank, however i do see where you're coming from
i think its simply just because shadow gens was built off of frontiers' framework and that the devs clearly wanted to spend more time on more important than than worrying about if the player would be walking on walls slowly, but i absolutely do think they'll fix this for the frontiers successor
That's a fair argument. I've barely noticed that since I rarely just walk around, I'm mainly boosting and jumping around like a monkey in a jungle jam. Their priority was to focus on making this game look great esthetic wise, that controls were decent, polish all around, and a coherent story which worked since the overall presentation was great for me
My proposed fixes:
Course-Correction: Let the player use the right-stick to shimmy left/right/back, refunding any lost speed if they hit an enemy on the noggin
Physics: Boost should be an option after hitting a minimum speed, sort of like Sonic Advance 2, but with a button.
Spin Dash: This just needs to come back.
Enemies: Should have 3 kinds of weaknesses that can be targeted by a main move - legs (spin dash), chest (homing attack), head (bounce)
Drop Dash: Dropping should have the ability to be angled, which would open a ton of design space for platforming
Explain the right stick to me cause I'm a little confused. You mean like in the levels or like white space, and if not in white space how would that work there if you have full control of the camera and enemies are running around?
My thoughts towards these ideas:
- QTEs being perfectly done to get an S rank: I don't hate it, but I'd rather that be saved for a harder difficulty and not REQUIRED to get an S rank, especially since the idea is "anyone can play these games." Add a higher skill ceiling sure, but that shouldn't come at the cost of raising the skill *floor* too high, granted for the bosses I understand, but something like the bosses version I would say would be perfect for an "easy/casual mode" difficulty setting, the base game be the "normal" one, and maybe your idea for "hard/challenging"
- The physics engine quirks: Yeah that's absolutely something that needs addressing, no questions asked
- Rail grinding: Personally I feel like the boost on rails should stay the same, but have it be that if you run out or just NOT boost, you go back to a more classical rail grind balance mechanic, just add a tony hawk balance meter. That way you can do a thing of "do you spend Boost to past the rail grind faster, or do you save your Boost for the rest of the level by manual rail balance?" I do think that the existing type of "auto-rail" kind of mechanic needs to be relegated to either specific rails or maybe a shoe upgrade, or like with the balance thing, be more for an easier/casual difficulty setting
- Raising the skill floor just a little/Let me suck at your game: I mean yeah, could use a bit more of that, but like I said, I feel like there could be a difficulty mode choice to mitigate that
My main thing is let us customize buttons and not just choose what button the Homing Attack & Boost are on despite showing us an entire "move = button" list without being able to swap them. Like at the very least, swap what buttons "Chaos Control" & "Chaos Spear" are mapped to if having the Boost mapped to RT.
Agreed on the button mapping thing, it seems like some developers especially triple A don't let you customize your controls for some weird reason. I'm speaking from the Nintendo side since customizing controls is non-existent in their games, Nintendo is really outdated on this
@@derple8524 I mean I get it, it sounds like it would be a nightmare to program and for it to not become a mess.
@@toonman5099 yeah, one wrong input and it's over, especially for coding as large as Sonic's
One could argue S rank isn’t “playing the game” so much as “mastering the game” A and B ranks are more for those simply playing the game while S rank should take mastery of the system and controls as well as timing and execution.
Also on the PC version at least you can just go into the settings change the control scheme to custom and map the buttons as you please, I did that but putting boost on R2, chaos spear on square, chaos control on triangle and so on.
I agree with everything except tying the rankings in anyway to the qte's. I can already see the millions of ways that could get frustrating.
especially if its a combo of QTE's and not just a couple. missing a perfect window once out of 10 would make so many people throw their controller lol
Oh I remember us talking about this on Sam's stream recently glad to see you discussing this also congrats on getting invited to the movie 3 premiere
I'd honestly be down if Sonic Team followed the lead of RGG Studios, where a new full Yakuza game is released every few years, but smaller, spinoff games are released between those games to test, improve and gather feedback on their work before the next full entry. Make smaller Shadow Gens-style entries for other characters while working on the next big Sonic game.
Imagine a silver game
It's worked with Kirby and I 100% agree they should do smaller games to test things. Like a mini Chao Garden game, that be cool
Raise the skill floor high enough and your game will be flooded with "how is anyone with 2 jobs and 3 kids supposed to play this game??" discourse
I wish triangle jump was still performable in practically any corridor like in sonic heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog but nope they downgraded that mechanic to specific 2D segments 🙄 laziness
The lack of rail grind physics reminded of the fact that the Advance and Rush games had proper rail grind physics.
I remember this being one of the biggest memes about 06 at the time, the fact that you could go upside down in the loops.
I have one issue with the physics too. When in midair, if you hold forward on the joystick, you lose midair momentum. Your speed slows down. WHY. Just make a toggle for it like in frontiers. Let me launch myself if I want to. Let me have an easier time at Spear Gliding. They'll probably end up treating Spear Gliding like the Homing Dash so just let me continue my momentum if i boost off the platform. Why do I have to let go of the Joystick to continue my momentum. I feel like I'm losing control of where I'm gonna land when I do that
It's called air resistance and every Sonic game has had it
@Rusty_Spy so why not have a toggle option to lower it? Doesn't Frontiers have one because I feel like it's never an issue in that game
@@Rusty_Spy yeah but in shadow gens and frontiers it’s worse than basically every sonic game before them. Just revert the air resistance values back to how they felt in the traditional boost, adventure, and classic styles and it’ll be fine.
@@FriesGuyyadventure games didn't have much air resistance
I swear Sonic games have a monkey paws curse, with every new game comes great new features, but we end up losing old ones that were actually good
When the only critique you have is "Let me be bad at the specific thing rather than being nice to me". That's how you know the game is in the right direction
I do wish I still had the ability to lean into curves on rails and get a speed boost out of it, would give you another thing to do on them and another skill-based way to cut your time. I'm not sure when was the last time they had that? Dreamcast SA2 or Heroes?
3:14 I would prefer if they were just removed.
10:00 I would also prefer if they just added the rail grinding of SA2 or Sonic Heroes, because I don't want rail griding to just be sidestep but it looks a little different.
What makes me optimistic that we can see changes like this, is how Sonic Team has been sculpting the Hedgehog Engine 2 over the course of these games. They cracked it open to make Frontiers work the way it does and despite that games many mechanical issues, Shadow Gens takes the linear elements and shines them to a glow. Frontiers 2 aims to do the same for the open world elements. From a game dev perspective Frontiers really was a tech demo- but now we get to see these tools refined.
Mid-Zone cutscenes are supposed to be disguised loading screens.
There are two things that *really* bother me with this game that I don't see anyone talking about;
Firstly, the damn homing attack STILL doesn't lock onto enemies off screen. Has caused me trouble numerous times.
Second, the forces animations look so bad in comparison to the new ones Shadow Gens provides, it's quite a clash, those need to go if u ask me.
im confused as to what you mean by forces animations
@@kaobunn Animations... that are... from forces...
How can you be confused by that?
@@Neoniq41 there's no point in the game where shadow's animations look inherently bad, reused sure but there was never a time where i stopped and said "huh this animation from forces looks worse than this animation"
@@kaobunn That's on you ig
Honestly the one animation from Forces that I dislike and want changed is the jumpball animation
Something nobody adresses is the lack of items. Those were relegated to classic Sonic only from Lost World onwards and I miss them dearly. Shadow gens is specially egregious since it does have item capsules but they only ever contain rings and chaos control refills. I get there not being extra lives but... Where are my shields? Invincibility? Anything?
I think the thing is, while boost effectively renders you invincible, any kind of shield or invincibility is redundant.
That being said, what if they retooled the speed shoes capsules to give you boost?
Perhaps they could offer invincibility if they do the Frontiers style boost again.
I agree with you that it's a feature I want to see come back, I just don't know how you'd integrate that into this type of boost gameplay.
@@ChannelPup I get what you mean but I'd still like the items even if they felt redundant simply because they're iconic and levels feel way too empty with just rings. Shields would still be useful, and same for magnet shields. Invincibility still protects you against stage hazards and projectiles that boost still takes damage from. And yes, they could retool speed shoes to give infinite boost for a limited time, kinda like they do in the racing games where they're essentially the golden mushroom from Mario Kart.
I love the thrill of breaking a random box and finding a shield capsule inside, and the rush of getting speed shoes or invincibility and blasting to an epic jingle for 7 seconds. If the only thing I can find are rings, I get zero incentive to interact with stuff during the level since rings are everywhere anyway.
@@ChannelPup I wouldn't say that boost renders you invincible as there are still hazards and attacks that can harm Sonic and Shadow while they're boosting, it's more of a constant attack state where enemies just can't touch you or they die and they can't melee fast enough to hit you (though I have had melee attacks hit me mid-boost in Sonic Generations, Colors, Forces, and Unleashed). So shields and invincibility wouldn't be redundant. But yeah they could retool some of the shields to better fit the boost formula or open zone formula (I just hope boosting is more like Shadow Generations and not like Frontiers). Maybe an electric shield constantly refills the boost gauge slowly and extends the ring magnetism radius or the fire shield gives you more of a rocket boost like that one stage in the Frontiers DLC. Maybe the water shield turns the Stomp into a classic bounce attack. Stuff like that. Maybe they could even add new shields to fit the current formula.
not gonna lie I dont really want it to be like frontiers where its all open I want it like shadow generations where you have an open world to explore but the main thing Is still levels but not 6 zones more then 6 zones
Other stuff I'd like to see addressed:
- Step up the difficulty, for shit's sake. Shadow Gens was so easy I barely felt any sense of accomplishment beating it, and I S-Ranked all stages without much of a problem, aside from Radical Highway. To go further, why even remove the life system entirely if the game is this easy? At least put an option to turn it on;
- More interesting, difficult and varied QTEs. The ones we have are cool for the spectacle but they don't go well with replayability, which makes them completely jarring and pointless. Maybe something quite like Unleashed does the job. Make it so that, if you miss the first, more difficult one, you get an easier one that rewards you with less score and "less cool" spectacle;
- Let us have other ways of building up speed, like whatever new mechanic that rewards skillful playing with speed (Idea: boosting for long enough slowly starts increasing your speed even more up to a higher cap);
- More use of momentum would be very welcome, and I've seen so many people asking for this;
- The OST. While I do enjoy Shadow Gens' OST, it's quite subpar for Sonic standards, some tracks feel too generic and forgettable. It's been this way since Lost World, with Frontiers being the only real exception
I can kinda agree with you while I dont think its that that easy like forces its just easy and has no challenge and sonic games have been like this since sonic colors everything is to easy and short. I want a game thats long and hard I dont care give me a sonic game that has challenges up to the level of cuphead. the ost of shadow generations I really like but I can say it could be better
I personnaly dont want the qte button presses to be shorter, that would kinda ruin my experience.
I think one way to make quick time events more interesting it would be if they worked in a similar way to how Colors Ultimate's homing attacks does, giving you a bonus of some kind (like dealing more damage to bosses) if you manage to time your inputs withing a small time frame, and outside of that time frame you get a regular result or an absolute fail if you don't do anything.
To my knowledge, Shadow Gens was the last game planned to utilize Hedgehog Engine 2 (which debuted in Forces). There were leaks/talks or Sonic Team switching to UE5, which is much more suitable for open world games, and there might be coming a new physics engine with it.
I really doubt they're ever going to fix the physics engine. They've been told by the fans that we want slope physics through fan games and online discussion for years now! But I think them continually ignoring that issue, further stripping down the slope mechanics, and the success of Frontiers and Shadow Gens means to me they're never going to address this issue.
I think QTE's should be invluded in more sonic games however I'd handle them like this. There are 3 different paths based on how well you time the QTE, if you hit it perfect you get a fast high route. If you hit it but not perfectly you get a middle, medium pace route. And if you miss it you go to the bottom path which is the slowest route. I think cinematics/spectacle should also be in more sonic games
I'm that you are pointing these out as essentially nitpicks that one would only think about after playing the levels X number of times and doesn't really affect your experience as you need to go out of your way to find them, but they are nonetheless there.
The spiderman walking on walls glitch needs to be eradicated. The framework for the game engine seems superb and just needs refinement.
Also, the art style for Shadow Generations needs to be the norm now for Sonic games.
Yay channel pup video
The Failed QTEs Is The One Thing I Fully Agree On. If Frontiers A LESS POLISHED GAME Had Them, Then The Newest Most Polished Game Should.
Yup theres no need for hand holding they are called boss levels for a reason
I would actually prefer if they kept using the original physics of Sonic Unleashed.
I know it was Sonic was a little hard to control when plataforming, but Im pretty sure you can do some adjustments to make it feel a little tighter, more like Sonic Colors.
If you analyze the physics of Donic Unleashed, you can see that it is the closest we've ever gotten to real 2D classic physics in 3D. You have slope acceleration and deacceleration, slope jumping, you are not spiderman, you have pretty good enemy bouncing, and you have to pull back when plataforming so you fan make that jump, even the slide kind of works like rolling.
They basically had a whole system perfect to make a real physics 3D Sonic game, but they just decided not to do it because little Timmy thinks is too hard.
This might be skill issue on my half, but I'm either lucky in getting the wall run to work or just fall off after a literal second of trying it. I think i have a minor bug where the opposite happens, but i might just suck at wall running.😅
Keep practicing and you'll get better 😊. I noticed that just to run straight you have to have the stick at like 25° degrees to make it work which feels weird
People tend to forget sonic doesn't really work off of a physics engine. It's more or less the same engine they've used since unleashed, granted with more polish as time goes by.
However at the end of the day The Hedgehog engine is MEANT to be a lighting engine. It's one of the main reason the games have looked great since Unleashed using certain techniques to make light bounce and reflect in a way you'd expect in life.
This is kinda the main reason I have a hard time liking modern sonic games more. Anytime you go from simple running to a section that involves sliding, diving, or otherwise movement that's different has physics feeling different. It makes it incredibly hard to naturally be talented at every facet at each game without simply having to learn each one.
If you ask me the classic games almost have more physics than the modern games, given how momentum was treated in them. It's a wild thought in itself.
Honestly I’d rather a Sonic game just have no QTEs at all, when there’s more time to make the bosses more intricately designed rather than artificial difficulty with more flashy stuff happening
Stuff like how you can get the Metal Overlord finisher if you can chaos control at the right time. That stuff is more cool than pressing a button when the game says so
Sonic levels are more fun for me when a level is designed to let me speed through it through my understanding of it than it artificially pushes me through scripted segments
I only missed the first missiles button presses unintentionally because I was expecting the game to convert the button prompts to an Xbox controller scheme while I was using a DualSense controller so I thought it wanted me to press square instead of X.
Ik this nowadays is a mute point, but I *Hate* rail physics nowadays. Rails had more depth before but now it's boost, go left and that's it. Sonic heroes striked the balance of not so punishing (when your not just randomly flung off) and instead allowed for you to still tilt yourself for more speed without it being so detrimental like it is in SA2, while still keeping the accelerate button. Of course that's not that easy when the boost button is right there. But I'm so sick and tired of rails and rail canyon (in shadow gens) just being hold x and think every now and again. Rail grinding as a whole should feel more rewarding than "great I don't have to push forward anymore!" I'll even take the lost world red and green as long as it adds more depth than just "hold button and switch".
to be fair shadow gens mitigates these problems by actively switching it up every now and then, and there's way less of a reliance on them unless you're playing rail canyon
though the rail grinding in the game isnt the games fault, it was built off of frontiers after all
@kaobunn true, there's alot of reaction based stuff that will get you off the rails. Or keep you doing something like the chaos spear challenge, but we really do need a revamp to allow for more.
I liked how I SA2 rails felt more of a way of increasing your speed and utilizing that function to move through quicker
I definitely think they should add more gravity into rail grinding instead of its more automated approach. It won't be that bad either, add a tutorial if you think newer players won't get it.
I think they shouldn't have levels focused on rails, unless it is done like in Sonic Lost World, where it feels like a Donkey Kong Country minecart level. It would also be nice if they added crouching on rails again
I think the QTEs should have been a little less generous in terms of how much time you are given to react. Maybe change it from what feels like 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds?
Having a new game every year is beneficial for the fandom but harmful to the game
10:46 YOU LUCKY DOG! I Still Have to Wait 10 Days At This Point to See It! Dammit! 😖
I’ll say it once I’ll say it again I swear every time I hear your intro I think that is the exact same piano sample used at the beginning of Britney Spears baby one more time
I don't doubt it was probably inspired by that.
@ lol that’s all right I just thought it was funny
everything makes sense, only Railgrind I think is good as it is, because they want to transform them into dashpads, and this speeds up and makes it faster and more practical to navigate the world, I just feel that there is a lack of physics in the grind for you to be able to increase your speed further of the base speed. Even more so as rails are being used as fast travel, so they need to have some speed to not break your rhythm
The game also like reeeaaallly doesn't want you to die. You can get hit like 3 or 4 times before you have 0 rings most the time.
I do love this game as well, slight improvements to physics in the next shadow outing will be appreciated, however I can say I enjoy that boost animation for shadow, I’d much prefer one where he still skates on his air shoes that flies forward, it works in the air but not on the ground. I’d also like to have a less gimmicky shadow game that doesn’t rely on doom powers as much, though doom spear and doom blast are just redundant, shadow has always shown the ability to throw multiple chaos spears as far back as the first game he shows up in, and doom blast is just chaos control to teleport to the enemy, the writer just thought that chaos control could only stop time.
I did notice that in sonic frontiers. It was puzzling. I do miss that physics engine.
I think the main one should be to stop the nostagia pandering. It's getting old. The reason Shadow Generations is great we got a new batch remade levels along good level design but even then the level design is based on already good level design and ideas of the past. Kingdom Valley is a perfect example.
I would like 100% new ideas and level design but If they want to bring back previous locations, make say Green Hill a night time level like Sonic Generations did with the missions. That Rouge level with Night version Seaside Hill feels like a new level despite using exact same level with few changes.
Shadow gens is near perfect. The only problem is… the soundtrack is kinda mid.
2:57
If you do that, I would like it to not be too hard to nail. I hate to constantly restart a stage because of one failed really hard button press.
I would like to add something with the physics, more of a mechanic.
Like Pup said, add a limit to how fast characters should be going to go up a loop, incline, wall, etc.
However, if we are playing with physics, then there should be an incentive to use them. The boost already makes you go at max speed, so it kinda defeats the point of physics based gameplay…
Unless the boost becomes physics based, more like Sonic Advanced 2. But then, that limits it’s use like air boosting, it would feel sluggish to use the base speed and could lead to the acceleration problem like Heroes and Forces.
My proposal is by adjusting the physics, the boost should have a speed cap (not making it slower, just having a higher max speed) and then after a certain ring threshold and keeping a non stop pace, the player enters a “Super boost” mode (debating if the player enters automatically or can be activated by sacrificing rings like Super Sonic).
3:04 so… Sonic Frontiers and Forces (like the snake in luminous forest and the train in spaceport) style qtes?
Yeah it's sadly a carry-over from Forces. Not as egregious but, still present.
Unleashed had the best physics. For a boost game.
This might be a hot take but the majority of Sonic players that Sega are focused on aren't bothered by any of these points. The physics aren't that bad. Automation is needed in a lot of loops because of how hard it is to control Sonic/Shadow at speed. You can see this in games like Spark the Electric Jester 2 & 3. No knock against that game, love it. Rail physics need to stay the same. Having to deal with balance AND speed will kill the fun factor for a lot of people. As for boost, don't like it? Don't use it. It would be impossible for Sega or any developer to make a game that's controllable with a game character moving that fast. F-Zero is close but hard as hell. SxSG is a great game, let it have its moment.
Although, this may be a reasonable nitpick on the physics of Frontiers and Shadow Generations, they are cleaning up messes that were bigger in Sonic 06 and Sonic 4 Ep. 1 and 2. Especially in Forces.
And it is all to make sure that pacing of the story of game flows very well, while the action has time to breathe.
Forces has better physics than 06 and Sonic 4, but the story bombarded the gameplay and it feels like going through the same stages on a totally different act from time to time.
Frontiers, although a rough start in gameplay, but a rough ending story has wonderful story pacing.
And all that is being cleaned up through Shadow Generations. The story flows much better with the action in Shadow Generations that Frontiers and there is a lot to unpack now that 50 years is still in play in the Year of Shadow 2024.
Difficulty is the main thing i think they should focus on. They seem to either go for baby mode or rusty nailboard mode. (sonic forces/Sonic Gens vs Superstars or Final Horizons/Unleashed, example). If they can get a curve similar to Shadow Generations with a high skill ceiling of Unleashed, that would be nice. I wouldnt mind more punishing LEVEL design as long as controls are tight, kinda like how Rush had a lot of death pits, but controlled very well at least IMO. Actually id say frontiers is a good example of a good middle of the road difficulty with a gradual curve (as long as you were on Hard) BEFORE Horizons of course, which is like going from the tutorial level to Eggmanland instantly lol
The big problem is that the boost exists and completely invalidates the physics system I hope someday we’ll get rid of the boost
You could rework the boost to make it be more of an accelerate much quicker button.
literally no not at all
I think the boost can still work, I used to be an advocate of getting rid of the boost too thanks to Sonic Project Hero where the game is built on the physics engine and relies on Sonic's momentum and physics to get through. Which is awesome. But maybe boost can still work. What Sonic Team needs to do is prioritize control, the physics, and not automat everything and let Sonic go through, if not tweak his physics. Not give up and just auto it
@@emeneensj445 how does an instant speed button not invalidate everything else
@@emeneensj445 the traditional boost would absolutely ruin the physics because they’d be useless. We need a nerfed boost to be able to work with a good physics system. Either by reducing how long the boost lasts and recharges by a lot or by doing something else like my idea from before.
Great video man it’s really good
I want them to bring back a sense of speed that feels REAL. Shadow Generations keeps using fake speed lines to simulate a sense of speed instead of sticking with ramping up the FoV and bringing the camera closer to the player like Base Generations does. They think that would make the player feel like they're actually going fast but instead, it really does the exact opposite. Especially when the boost isn't that much faster than -jogging- skating.
Nice, 3D Yourself. 😃👍
ChannelPup has posted, time to stop whatever I'm doing bc priorities!
Thank you for your sacrifices. 🖖
Look, I don't know about yall but I think watching shadow casually stroll at 2 millimetres per hour along a 90 degree flat wall is hilarious /j
10:18 My video pause for me😂
Stop doing Shadow? But I love my Shadow
Not that. Keep Shadow going.
The problem is that they actually cared and wanted to make a good game.
Why is that a problem?
I have a hard time revisiting sonic frontiers. Idk
I ended up retuning the controls to match Shadow Gens' hub world a bit more (albeit with a higher top speed) and I gotta say, new favourite way to play.
Sonic Frontiers is still fun to mess around with from time to time. I just don't want to do the whole campaign again cause F those puzzles 😭
I’m not sure how accurate this is but I heard that since the hedgehog engine was build on top of lost world the bad physics come from that
Hedgehog engine is only lighting. And lost world used HE1 while forces and later games use HE2
@ Technically yes but since each game was made on top of each other. Forces was made on top of lost world frontiers was made on top of for se and shadow gens was made on top of frontiers so some stuff will carry out.
@@That1One-GuyYou’re right you just used the wrong engine since the HEs are only lighting.
Tell Sega this but they’re not smart enough to listen
Honestly there's so much feedback that goes their way I just want them to improve the core stuff and prioritize that
…this guy created the absorbalof
The thing is, they started rushing these games more and got lazy with polishing up the physics engine since both Frontiers and Shadow Generations feature the boost, so they thought players wouldn't really notice and it wouldn't harm the game. But yeah, I agree, the games should have better physics abd at the very least not let you walk through a loop with low speed as that would just be cheating, not that many would do that anyway. Another game which I think let you do that is Rise of Lyric, pre-patch at least. But I think this is still at least overall better than in the Adventure games, where those didn't even let you enter a loop in another way than intended, as doing that completely broke the scripting and would most likely send the player flying to their death.
They didn’t get lazy with the physics. They tweaked them to prevent issues with the ground.
@justice8718 What do you mean by that?
@@Tromite Think about how Sonic travels around the frontiers world like it’s Sonic CD.
@justice8718 How, time travel?
@@Tromite Watch the Sonic Boom opening.
How about all of you guys play srb2 and see the classic gameplay in 3d there might not be loops but they got everything else right
Plus sonic team sees the classic gameplay style in 3d as too hard for a player to get into so they take control away from the player alot their motive is to make games everyone can play
I disagree about QTEs. I think they should be a spectacle using player input, but doing something beyond a control scheme. Because of this, they should be simple instead of sudden test of memorization of joypad layout (which is a pain for anyone new or changes between Xbox and Nintendo controllers which swap letters). QTEs can also severely hurt people who have bad controllers or issues with their bodies. You have no idea how many people couldn't finish Sonic Forces because they were filtered by Triple Boost mashing. They just couldn't.
Honestly just make it a cutscene at that point.
The most surprising aspect about this game to me is that it took me 10 hours to come across a notable glitch. This isn't just a Sonic game, it's a SHADOW game. See what happens when Sonic Team isn't rushed, SEGA?
They should stop having crucial plot information be exclusive to pre-release videos that aren't even in their respective games. It's stupid to have the player be easily able to miss out on big parts of the plot because they haven't watched a random TH-cam video that was uploaded months before the game's launch. It's been like this with Frontiers, although it didn't become of as big of a problem until Superstars. Yeah, I agree with the QTEs, I think they just remove them if they're not going mean anything for failing them and pressing a button in a short amount of time doesn't equate to skill at the game.
Congrats to movie invitation.
I just wish we can get sonic adventure 3 same formula as the adventure seriesjust add boosting with collecting rings and fix up animations add a few new ones , longer stages to Match how fast the speed characters are , and multiplayer where we can actually play people in real time . We get that we have the best sonic game ever
10:51 fin.
Hold y simulator🥶
I agree the nick picks are annoying at times, but it doesn't ruin the experience.
PUP RATE ALL OF THE RIVAL SKINS
ok so do what RE6 and Peacewalker did. got it.
My only problem is the rain
Not enough water 0/10 - IGN
baysaid
The one thing that most frustrates me with recent Sonic games especially Sonic X Shadow Generations is that 3D levels have 2D sections. Can we just have a level that is only 3D and a level that is only 2D. We also need a lot more playable characters each with their own campaign like Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Shadow, and Silver.
shadow gens does do the whole 1 act in 3d and another in 2d thing tho (minus radical highway with 2 3d acts)
Shadow Generations was at least slightly better
Act 1 is full 3d, no 2d, and Act 2 is fully 2d, no switching. Only level that breaks this rule is Radical Highway, where act 1 AND 2 have no 2d
Shadow Generations literally does what you just said. Act 1s are entirely 3D and Act 2s are entirely 2D (except for Radical Highway Act 2 which is entirely 3D)
This guy didnt even play the game💀
Uhhh...........
My guy none of these are "issues" :/
What are they then?
In other words you want them to cater to you specficially and not account for people who don't get a hard on for things being obnoxiously difficult. None of these are problems with the game this is you not liking that they have to think about other people that are'nt like you. No I do not want a punishment for missing a quick time event especially if it's already a hard boss to begin with nor do I want to fail at grabbing a rail because I did'nt get on at the exact right spot, that's not fun that's tedious and frustrating.
I mean... if you'd have such a hard time with those ideas alone, I don't see how you could've gotten past Radical Highway.
If you dont like being challenged in games, you might as well abandon platformers
@@Zerosaber91 Again that's not what I'm saying read before you type.
They need to bring back the running animation like adventure two battle I don’t like how shadows running really slow and different
I agree with this. It's not an objective thing by any stretch but it's much cooler.
If you think about Channel Pup, for some reason, I feel like one of the only games that had the physics right for the boost gameplay, is Sonic Dream Team of all things.
Do you mean skating? And by that extent do you mean it should replace the hover for boost or just take place of the regular skating. If it's the latter, then I agree partially. I do think the skating animation is best there, but it looks like way too much effort when he can boost.
They should just get rid of qte events alrogether. Cinematic bullshit like that is not real gameplay and i didnt like it back in Frontiers either
Why so many game content creators are British? lol
Literally who the hell cares about those physics nitpicks. God I hate being a Sonic fan, all you people do is complain
Majority of video is him complaining about about a 10/10 sonic game
Yes
ngl ıdk why down grade qte ı loved the faıls (also yee ıdk whats wıth theır engıne physıcs)
The physics in Sonic games have been totally broken since Sonic 2006. It's crystal clear the fans don't care about it, as the have eaten up anything SEGA shits out for them ever since.
Honestly I'm still down for a Sonic game that focuses on pure momentum physics, and your right we've eaten up anything that had a less focus on it. But physics ain't the only thing that makes up a Sonic game.
I'm speaking from playing games like Freedom Planet 2 and Spark the Electric Jester 3 which have provided that for me. After Frontiers which I did not like at all, I just wanted a fun, visually pleasing, stylish Sonic game. And honestly this game was perfect for me since I've never played the original Sonic Generations, and Shadow Gens is just as fun.
But I do hope we get a pure momentum base game one day, but games like Freedom Planet 2, Spark the Electric Jester 3, and Penny's Big Breakaway are great games that scratch that itch
Voice acted dialog.
The boost needs to go I think that's why we don't have good physics
How many times do adventure fanboys have to be proven wrong.
No boost =/= Good Physics.
What's wrong with Frontiers and Shadow Generations?
@@spritvio639 I prefer to have to maintain my speed than just hold down a button
@@AYTM1200 "Proven wrong" and it's just your opinion
@@toastedsquareToo bad, stay playing adventure or classic games