NETTLES Appearing in House of the Dragon Season 3
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ต.ค. 2024
- Many have speculated that the character Nettles from the George R.R. Martin book, Fire and Blood, would be merged with Rhaena Targaryen, Daemon's daughter, who we have already met in House of the Dragon. BUT, Nettles is so important to plot development and dragon lore that you should expect to see her in Season 3.
**SPOILERS** For House of the Dragon S2 and plot reveals from the Book
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If they want to give Rhaena a dragon give her grey ghost
OMG Right! That would be awesome. How beautiful would that be.
But she already has a dragon named Morning.
@@Cappellano hear me out
Grey ghost, wild adult dragon. A dragon that breaths fire and loves fish, a dragon that symbolizes fire and the sea and a dragon that in the books never had a rider. Literally in the books sunfrye kill it and it was never confirmed it someone hatch it or born free and wild. Literally they could have given Rhaena grey ghost and have it die in combat to hatch her small dragon morning. Them giving sheep stealer to her just cancels daemon arc and nettles completely
@@rexrivers2220 the entire thing about Grey Ghost AND Cannibal was that they are opposites, but neither was ever tamed.
@@rexrivers2220Not much point in that though, how does she get to fight Sunfyre on dragon stone then make her way back to the Vale with no dragon?
Another TH-camr pointed out how crazy it is that in the name of “diversity” they would literally erase an original black character, while keeping all the white characters intact by race swapping them.
Solid point. I agree. Nettles is the only character of diversity from the book. That itself raises issues for many. It seems it might have been a concern for showrunners, because they chose to make the Velaryans have darker skin with white hair. (I'm simplifying, but you get the point). I applaud the choice, and think the actors did fabulous in their portrayal, even related to the souce material. BUT making a race swap (is that the term?) with the Velaryons doesn't mean the show is golden, that it checked the "diversity box" and can therefore take the liberty of erasing an original black character. As I said in the video, that will probably be seen as a diversity no-no. For a show that seemed to want to add diverse representation from the beginning, erase Nettles doesn't fit the pattern or make sense.
@SheFantasy-fe7lo I think making Laenor black was so fuggin stupid.
Race swaps are dumb but can be looked over. Unfortunately, when a major conflict is children not looking Valyrion. But why would they in the show?
It's not even obvious they're bastards And, given the way everything North of Dorne feels about the Dornish.... the race swap convoludes and detracts from the story in several ways and takes me out of the show.
And adding Dornish characters would 100% solve the diversity issue.
Tokenism. These showrunners better not think they have checked the "diversity" box and short change the real story.
@@andrewprofitt6898 in terms of "reasoning" within the realm of Westeros, these are solid points. I see both sides, race swap for diversity sake. BUT in Westeros, the blood "purity" is the issue. That is supposed to give one the "Valyrion" look. And if blood is tied to dragon claiming ability, then it is important. I like your Dornish idea. And there was a bar scene discussing that, but what did it lead too???
@@mnsfldoc3361 amen. lol
They always stated that they cut Nettles. They also cut Marlor.
I have looked into this because I thought maybe I missed a press release or something. From what I have found, it has not been confirmed that Nettles is cut officially. In fact, as recently as SDCC the showrunners have been cagey to confirm this. Maybe its for the conversation, but I would still put the "Nettles is cut" statement in rumor territory. If you found out anything else, could you please share it with the community?
@@SheFantasy-fe7lo It hasn't been cpnfirmed
@@mnsfldoc3361 I think Maelor is confirmed, sadly
I think her character meets goals that are fulfilled or will be fulfilled by other characters.
- show black characters in a positive way. She is one of the few black characters of importance who is neither pirates nor prostitutes. This need is ultimately fulfilled by the change on Corlys and his family.
- showing that the need to be a pure Targueryen to bond with a dragon is just propaganda. Ultimately, it is the dragon who chooses, he does not obey just because he is forced by a genetic-magical predisposition.
The show gives lots of hints that dragons do what they want and have their own personality: Vaghar hesitates to burn Leana and disobeys Aemond, Seasmoke who chooses his dragon rider himself, Vermithor chose the only one who stood up to him because he likes bad boys and Silverwing is a nice granny who found Ulf funny 😅
Even the fact that it insists on that Baela, although of Targueryen blood, cannot do bond with a dragon highlights that nothing is automatic, it is propaganda and not reality. Even if she finds Sheepstealer, we can imagine that she still have to tame him with sheeps over several episodes while everbody think that she is dead.
- open Daemon's mind to magic as she guides him to the Isle of Faces. Alice Rivers takes this role and Daemon becomes a believer (we even see a green man close to him in the garden)
(And Spoiler)
- create a separation between Darmon and Ranyera who has became jealous and paranoid, going so far to ask for Neetles' head.
We can imagine an arc with Baela with this same conclusion.
When Ranyera will learn that she left her children when she had asked her to protect them, she will accuse her of being responsible for the death of Viseris and Jacerys.
So she could ask for his head for treason.
Daemon finds himself in the same situation as the book between his wife and his "daughter"
Thank you so much for your reply. The community is richer for your knowledge and insight.
I agree with your take on showing black characters in a positive way. I totally support the Velaryons being of darker skin. That was an important class distinction...people of color as both high-born as well as low-born. That is still an important distiction beyond the positive/criminal take.
Your second point is crucial to dragon lore. Is it pure genetic/Targaryen DNA that allows for a bond or is it the dragon who chooses, as you say. I still think Nettles is crucial to making this point b/c all the other dragonseeds have traced lineage to Targaryens. How else would the showrunners touch on this point?
I love your take on each of the dragons personalities. Vhagar wants to retire, poor thing. But I feel Vhagar wasn't being disobedient to Laena, but that she didn't want to harm her. It wasn't until that moment when Vhagar realized that Laena was doomed anyways that she decided to respect her choice/command. But there is a difference between obedience and a bond. The show has got to make a point that the bond is possible without a blood tie.
I see Rhaena being the type to have a nurture bond with a dragon as opposed to a commanding one. I don't see her ever having the will to tame Sheepstealer. But raising the hatchling Morning, is definitely more align with her personality traits.
Question: do you ever see Rhaenyra asking for Baela or Rhaena's head? Remember, Corlys is her Hand..he wouldn't allow that; his grandchildren by blood. So who is going to be this character that pivots Rhae to want heads to roll? You could be right, but I'm certainly curious on how to pull off such a detour from the book
@@SheFantasy-fe7lo
Clearly the current Raenyra is not that cruel and would not ask for her head but they could build up a switch because she feel betrayed and more and more paranoid.
When she will arrived at Kings Landing Aegon will be gone so she will accuses Alicent of betraying her.
Plus the treason of the other seeds in Tumbleton.
Knowing that she already lost Jacaerys and presumably Viseris in the battle of the Gullet.
We could imagine that everybody assume that Rhaena is also dead even killed in the battle because those who were with her in the Vale were also on the boat to Pentos and were killed.
Daemon could leave to handle his grief one his own so she would completely alone again.
So we could imagine a queen lost in paranoia and completely devastated by grief, and she learns that Rhaena is alive because she has abandoned her children after she explicitly asked her to protect them like a mother …
Honestly it would make more sense for her to ask her head for treason than Dany burning Kings Landing in the season final 😅
@@SheFantasy-fe7lo I really love Neetles but I can also understand the writers. The show has already so many characters choice has to be made.
Also we don’t know when they planned to stop the story. Morning arrives very late so not sure if this small dragon has a real impact on the story.
Personally, I'd have made their house Asians cuz it makes the bastard sons easier to believe. Mixed asian (white/asian) with white woman makes it easier to believe her that they were not from someone else as the eyes wouldn't be as slanted. But someone who is half BLACK? Just makes everyone look like idiots.
Also...we have enough black actors. Where tf are the Asians?! Valyria was massive and looking at its location, it'd have Asians (who knew how to sail too). I'm willing to ignore the lack of Hispanic/Latino (I am Hispanic), but ffs diversity isn't just adding black characters! There's other ethnic groups rarely seen in live action high fantasy.
Does it not strike anyone as odd that so many people are dying to have Nettles storyline of a stereotypical downtrodden thief low dirty person included in the story while simultaneously people literally rejected Corleys Valerian as a different hue of skin, but almost the same storyline as the book portrays him. Please don’t be confused. This is not about diversity and inclusion. This is a conversation about, comfortability with negative stereotypes applied to people with melanin. If people were so keen to have Nettles story included to have diversity they would’ve been glad to have included Corlys with no problem. Maybe the show runners recognize that some of the portrayals in the original text not only have little to no value in moving the story forward but they also are derogatory and stereotypical in the most negative way. Maybe the show runners recognize that the original text is secondhand accounts, not necessarily actual fact and can be interpreted or portrayed differently or actually and literally have been different than what a vulgar drunk jester or a biased Maester thought it should be.
These are very good points but I think another point that should be made is that Nettles is one of the few poc characters from the book. Given that it seemed very likely that they were going to give her story of claiming a dragon to Rhaena.
So another concern was the writers treating these two women of color as interchangeable.
This of course wasn’t people’s main reason for wanting Nettles in the show but their issue with her being erased from the storyline.
If Nettles is in season 3 I am hoping that they treat her more like Alice Rivers. Bc Alys in the books was thought to be a seductive witch who enticed Daemon but in the show she is different and a bit more nuanced. I’m hoping for similar changes for Nettles.
Wow, you make great points and I see your perspective. So glad you shared it with us. I, for one, LOVE the way the show adapted Corlys and family. I respect that they showed diversity among highborns as well. The Velaryons are every much the Velaryons from the book, just like you mentioned. You are sharp!! "This is a conversation about comfortability with negative stereotypes applied to people with melanin." Now that's a conversation.
I see what you are saying about characters of diversity being stereotypically portrayed a certain way. I am 100% for the casting choice made with the Velaryons in the show. In fact, when I re-read the book, I see Steve Toussaint at Corlys in my mind. You may be right in stating that the showrunners felt the need to address derogatory/stereotypical portrayals in the text. (I would love to ask them).
My draw to Nettles was always that I related to her common/low-born status and hot damn (literally) she got a mighty beast. She wasn't shown favor because of birth or position. She got her hands dirty and put in the work. She earned it in a way many can relate who aren't given things because of socio-economic status or any of those types of constructs. I mean, that she could train a dragon by earning his trust?! Her grit is what is most appealing, and her representation was a plus...quite frankly, ethnically diverse/multi-cultural worlds are far more interesting.
I was also fascinated with what her ability to claim a dragon means for lore. So are Targaryens so superior genetically by blood? I don't have the answers at all, but I think that people are talking is a good thing. I am so glad you responded. You make the community richer. Thank you!
I agree totally. The magnificent entrance of the Valeryon clan at Rhaenyra's wedding banquet! Great acting transcends ethnicity. Steve Toussaint was excellent. To delve a little deeper, all the old Hollywood movies of the golden age (Ten Commandments, Cleopatra, etc.) No one gave a second thought that all the main actors were white. They even painted xtras skin darker skin to make them look "Middle Eastern" Charlton Heston and Elizabeth Taylor playing Northern Africans was never a question or a problem. Whitewashing every story in that era was because of racist views of ethnic actors (100 years ago). I always found this interesting, and needed to have an open dialogue among critics and media commentators.
Here's the thing about Rhaenyra wanting to have Nettles executed. In Westeros, 16 years old isn't exactly considered a child, since Westerosi culture and values are based on those found in Medieval Europe, and until recently, ages like 15, 16, 17, etc. were considered adult. In Westeros, 16 year olds are viewed more as young adults than minors. A 16 year old has more accountability in comparison to someone who is only 4 to 6 years old like Aegon and Helaena's son Jaehaerys.
So true. In Westeros, 16 year olds have married, had children, been to war, etc. It can be a bit jarring for us in our society, at first, but as we saw with Viserys looking for a 2nd wife, this was the reality in this world. There is an absolute difference between 16 year old Nettles, and Aegon & Helaena's children for sure! Thanks for reminding everyone of the distinction.
Perhaps what is so off-putting about Rhae wanting to execute Nettles is that it's personal. Its fine for other dragonseeds to be arrested but Nettles has got to go?? Hmm. That's more of a "hell has no fury like a woman's scorn" sort-of-thing. But the fact that Rhaenyra sunk to that level is an important turn for her character. The war, her marriage, her losses, etc. have corrupted her to make this vile declaration. Without a Nettles, is the show going to be able to show Rhae stooping this low?? The showrunners can't completely paint her in positive light, because, fairly, she has some ugly too.
Rhaenyra and Aliceny are way nicer on the show. They’re both very cut throat in the books
I agree. A way to make them relateable to audiences perhaps?
The writers had to make them more sympathetic or they wouldn’t have any rooting value.
Starting out watching the ORIGINAL G..O.T. series, I was a " Virgin"NORMIE " to the story. I had NOT read the Books, NOTHING! I still have NOT READ the Books & MY"KNOWLEDGE" of the STORY is STILL the ORIGINAL SERIES & THE HOTD, so far. But after watching this video, I HOPE they DO introduce the "NETTLES" character. But keep her as CLOSE TO THE the SAME CHARACTER in the SOURCE MATERIAL as POSSIBLE!
Wow. Thank you for sharing your perspective. A lot of people have just watched the shows and that's ok. I think why those who have read the books get so pumped over certain characters is because they are so colorful. Nettles is spunky and one to root for. No one in the universe if perfect, but she is a great character. I really hope she shows up in season 3, for all the reasons in the video, but also for fun/enjoyment
Only if we get 10 episodes again
1000% I think that season 2 was weaker since it was meant to have 10 episodes but was cut short. The pacing seemed off. Anti-climatic
not to put race or gender into this (seriously), but I think the story is richer if you have a low-born girl (cause gender & rank does matter in Westeros) claim the most wild dragon. (OK except The Cannibal). HOTD needs Nettles. They have made sketchy changes. Hopefully, this actress is Nettles (the Woman King was fire) Claiming a dragon is what? Power? Blood? Nettles is the grey area where these factors can't be certain. BUT SHE DOES IT.
I do not buy for one second that Rhaena claims Sheepstealer. Total personality miss-match. I get that showrunners rewrite, but if they can't get this write, then they truly don't understand Fire & Blood .
real talk. RACE and GENDER is a part of the discussion in Westeros. This is all fiction, but the dynamics that occur in the "game" or "dance" are MEANT to highlight these things.
Merging Nettles and Rhaena certainly complicates the adaptation regarding the whole Rhaenyra/Daemon/Nettles plot in the book, although I'm willing to withhold judgement until seeing where they go with it before ultimately deciding if it was a good or bad move.
But all the focus on Nettles appearance in the book is really starting to come across as the same Velaryons You Tube thought were "too black" in Season 1 now "aren't black enough" in Season 2 (both attitudes are tiresome IMO).
That's a great attitude to take. I have to agree with you but I'm NERVOUS and I don't see a way around Nettels. As to the whole Velaryons debate online, that seems to be a lot of pot-stirring. I think the addition of dark skinned high-borns was a great touch. It addresses some of the issues many have with the GOT universe where only the whitest of the white (Targaryen white hair, purple eyes) can claim dragons. But the key difference is that the Velaryons (Laenor/Laena) have Targaryen blood, which still ties dragon riding to genetics. Nettles' lineage is completely unknown. She may not have a drop of Targaryen blood but still bonds with a dragon. Is the series going to never address this possibility?
We don’t care anymore. She’s cut
I get that some feel that way. But believe me, many still care. And as far as I know, it hasn't been confirmed that Nettles is cut (by any of the showrunners, etc). Everything is still rumors
@@SheFantasy-fe7lo okay. I will come back and throw a tantrum when it’s confirmed you gave me hope for nothing.
@@ValyrianPrince Me too. I really think Nettles is the right way to go.
Nettles is just a Valaryon dragon seed.
They botched this
Well, we ae never told for sure and that has been where all the fuss comes from. Thank you for commenting
@SheFantasy-fe7lo if she exists in the show I mean. She looks like Addam
I prefer merging Nettles with Rhaena. Cuz after season 2, Daemon having an affair with Nettles....makes no sense. It feels stupid. That's something I do hope they cut.
Should Rhaena take Nettles' place in the Dance, there's still a way to complete Rhaenyra's extreme change:
Rhaena would be horrified with the attack on Tumbleton and refuse to fly into battle again (just like Nettles in the book, but also like her twin Baela sounded horrified at the idea of burning innocents).
It'd be very in line for Rhaenyra to be furious with her refusal, after everything this war will have cost her at that point, and for Mysaria to convince her that Daemon is trying to use his "traitorous daughter" to try and steal her crown. Then Daemon helps Rhaena escape when Rhaenyra wants her executed for treason, leading to their fight.
The biggest problem I see is that giving Rhaena Sheepstealer makes it impossible to complete HER OWN character arc: Morning.
Wow you are so creative. I would have never thought of that! I'm impressed.
Okay so let me follow you... First off, if Rhaena claims sheepstealer, I don't see her sitting out the battles just patrolling the Vale (to the delight of Jeyne). Rhaena has shown she wants to play an active role, like her sister, so I agree with you and absolutely think she would be at Tumbleton. I also agree and think she would be horrified with the slaughters of war she witnesses at Tumbleton. Both sisters have a lot of their mother Laena's traits, perhaps more so than their fathers'. In Westeros, there's seems to ultimately be 2 types of people, those that accept the ugliness of war like Jace (not even speaking of those who seem to lust for it), and those who believe battle should be a last resort and targeted on soldiers, not the innocents (Baela). .....I'm with you so far...
Ok, question. How are saying that Rhaenyra can still have the change to her character arc? In the show, she has been slow to act in violence. Corlys encourages her to press the advantage of more dragons (as do others). She is now willing to do this, but still makes comments that her father wouldn't like how things are playing out. She's beginning that change. So how would you Rhaenyra go from this to seeing her own step daughter as a traitor? And not just an "arrest her" traitor, but an "off with her head" traitor? I see Rhaenyra forcing Rhaena and sheepstealer to part ways (he likes being wild), perhaps by locking her up away from her dragon. Right now, Rhaenyra seems to realize that certain people don't have it in their nature to battle, dragon or not (ex Helaena). If Rhaena was horrified by what she saw at Tumbleton, do you think there's a chance she would realize/accept that it's not in her nature to fight?
Another question, how would Daemon side in a Rhaenyra v Rhaena situation, esp if its over the issue of reluctance to fight? We know Daemon is full throttle and nothing is above blood. But he has his brother's daughter/wife's blood vs his child's? Do you think Daemon feels a fondness for Rhaena? In Pentos, she mentioned to her mother that Daemon ignores her, and she supposes its because she doesn't have a dragon. I also see Daemon as a domineering "you will fight for our family" type parent more than an, let me help you escape family duties, oh and your a traitor.
Please understand, I'm genuinely curious because you're on to something. Just asking questions on the loose ends.
I also agree, and didn't even start to address it, Morning. A beautiful yet-to-be hatched dragon with an importance in the larger story beyond the Dance of the Dragons. Who would claim this dragon then? Rhaena=Sheepstealer basically erases Morning from the picture in terms of what they would depict in HOTD for sure.
Thank you so much for sharing. You defintely need to consider creative writing in some way :)
Oh, I fully agree that Rhaenyra wanting her stepdaughter executed is very extreme and inconceivable to the current Rhaenyra. But after both the Gullet and Tumbleton? Not so much.
I'll avoid giving spoilers, but in the book the Battle of the Gullet marked the beginning of the end for a very good reason - I don't blame Rhaenyra for losing some of her scruples after that. And after Tumbleton (again, avoiding spoilers), she is PARANOID AS HELL. It doesn't take much for Mysaria to turn Rhaenyra against Daemon, so it would be even easier for her to believe badly of Rhaena.
Of course, it's much easier to see Rhaenyra turn on Nettles, a bastard she barely knew, but even if she didn't suspect them of being lovers, she'd still be jealous of how Daemon treated Nettles much like HER OWN YOUNGER SELF - the doting, expensive gifts, giving her his time and attention - and worse, allowing her to join Daemon in battle, while young Rhaenyra was always left behind. And that's the side I'd expect the show to play up if they put Rhaena in Nettles' place.
Daemon DID favor Baela over the dragonless Rhaena. But now it'd be barely-battle-sized Moondancer against a dragon larger than Caraxes (in the book at least). And while Rhaena would balk at burning down the Green army (like Nettles did) even on Rhaenyra's orders. That wouldn't stop her from helping Daemon hunt down Aemond, the murderer of her betrothed. Which then Mysaria could misconstrue as them acting behind Rhaenyra's back.
Would this be enough for Rhaenyra, half-mad with grief, paranoid, and seeing the Greens undermine her ruling, to order the execution of a member of her family? Not normally. But she'll very likely blame Rhaena for not being on the Gay Abandon with her sons. So she'd easily accept "proof" (from Mysaria) that Rhaena, who will already have "betrayed" her once by "abandoning" the boys, is conspiring against her (maybe trying to steal her Crown?), and demand her head in rage - not as clean-cut as the book scene, but enough for Daemon to help Rhaena run away.
I wish they had not cut Nettles. Her story was so compelling that it would have made great television.
I'll be honest, I saw your response and freaked...did I miss a press release? So I did a little digging and fact checking. Now, I am not an insider with any "connects," but even combing the rumor mill, what I found as of 8/28 is that it CANNOT be confirmed by showrunners or HBO that Nettles has definitely been cut. In fact, I think they are loving the chatter on the topic that they are keeping tight-lipped on purpose.
So at the expense of feeding the conversation (I can't help it, I love this story), I posted my take. I, like you, feel Nettles story is compelling and makes for great TV.
Thank you so much for your response.
@@SheFantasy-fe7lo well, my comment was more less a hypothetical. Since baela found sheep stealer I'm just assuming that "nettles" is now an amalgam character and that the show runner is leaning into only Targaryen descendants being able to mount dragons.
I hope I'm wrong though. I love Nettles.
Unfortunately, I think Nettles as her own character has been axed. I think Rhaena will go undercover as Nettles. Aegon and Viserys have went or are on their way to Pentos and Jeyne is not going to let her in. I think she will dye her hair and hide out with her dad and call herself Nettles. She always wanted Daemons regard and now with Sheepstealer she can get it. It works but it is at the cost of a positive Black fantasy character.
Of course id be happy to be wrong. 😀😀
Great vid! Nettles story certainly deserves to be told, she is actually my favorite character from the Fire & Blood book, but unfortunately I believe she is a casualty of the forced diversity of HOTD, the show has so many POC that it no longer makes sense to have her character, as her addition would only confuse matters, viewers might assume that she is simply a bastard Velayron.
Another great point! Yeah, casual viewers might assume Nettles is a bastard Velaryon. I agree her story should be told, and I see some ways that it still HAS to be. (But I'm not super creative to rewrite GRRM's work, and heck, I wouldn't even try). BUT, I think it is proper storytelling and the resposibility of the writers to make the distinction between Nettles and Velaryons. They should be able to do that (I mean not all darker-skinned people in Westeros are Velaryon). I just can't think of how to address plot issues such as Rhae's turn "to the dark side" and House Mooton's about-face switch to the greens without a catalyst. And it would be a shame of HOTD completely ignores the notion that of both blood and magic for bonding with dragons. TSOIAF has too much mystical, magical elements to it to simply equate XYZ blood=dragonrider and not get into the hows and whys. Maybe that's just me, but I'm really hoping for those bigger reasons, we see Nettles.
These freaking selfish writers they think they are real life dragon riders of book writing lol deviating from the subject matter as to not include such a key character. Being true to book canon is equally important. Look at what happened to GOT after they run out of book material, Dan & Dave went from genius show creating book adaptors to basically the definition of bad writers as the Buffoon moniker Dumb and Dumber. DOD creators run the same risk not including such a beloved and important character as Nettles.
That is a common sentiment. I am all for taking some creative liberties, but sticking to the source material is crucial because it works & is beloved. Yes, they should've learned that lesson with GOT. Moreover, GRRM is more involved in this show, so that takes some brass ones to eliminate characters altogether. The story would have to really change to accomodate this and I think the core fandom will turn. Bad idea, in my opinion, but we will see what happens
As I said, I love fan fiction. But they ain't GRRM. And that NOT what people want to see