Yeah, sometimes I go back to those videos and almost cringe. Lol. It's been a steep and expensive learning curve. But going through it with all these people I wouldn't change anything. 😊
LOL! Actually he has kids of his own and wants me to ship all of it to him. Not sure that makes economic sense. But most of what I do doesn't make sense ether. It sure seems like the Hot weather has come early this year. Had to fire up the AC for the 1st time.
Very well explained. I imagine i'm taking a right turn. The car will lean to the left. The right wheel gets less pressure and has less grip. The stabilizer transfers power to the left wheel, which can provide more grip.
@@DougBugBuilder that's actually debatable, you'll have less traction on the axle the swaybar is attached to, most traction is achieved when both wheels see the same force, a swaybar removes force from the lighter inside wheel but puts it on the heavier outside, but because the two wheels are less equally loaded as a result traction is reduced at that axle. What swaybars should be used for IMO is to tune handling between oversteer and understeer, a swaybar will contribute to the roll stiffness, the cars ability to resist rolling in a corner and losing traction as a result, so I might fit a swaybar and lose traction on that axle but the contribution to roll stiffness means I may gain more traction at the other axle. A stiff rear swaybar will promote oversteer it is robbing the rear of traction but also giving some to the front. I'm not sure about the logic of fitting front and rear swaybars except I suspect some people like the feel of less body roll despite getting less overall grip. IMO a swaybar is the last thing you should touch to tune your suspension as it robs Peter to pay Paul.
@@arrindaley3714 I agree with you 100%. In fact one of the reasons I put the sway bay on the rear was to give some traction to the front. What I meant in that response is that without it there is so much body roll you really have to slow down for it. Where as with the sway bar you can go into turns faster and have more traction (in the front). But your information is spot on. Thanks for making me use my brain this morning. ;-)
great video doug you helped clear up the hole sway bar delima im having me personally dont like sway i like independent suspension cause your less likely to tip your vehical ima watch some more your videos take care buddy FYI your dog is beautiful
lol I learned about sway bars the same way with my RC car too lol. I don't run sway bars on my long travel Tacoma, but they are still in on my lifted/off road STI.
Hi Doug, You are right with the sway bar, i don't bother to put on my buggy. You know? Today i have worked all day to my trailing arms of my Buggy, i didn't finished, to much to work for a lonely guy like ne and not so powerfull. But, i was thinking about you and your wonderfull work all day when i was constructing stufs. I work slow to make it wright. I wish i can show you my work, but i'm a shame, myne it's ugly and not profesional, your are like wonders. Thanks for everything Vali
Vali, I'm pretty sure you sent me photos a while back. Your buggy is great! Wrenching alone on projects in the garage is part of the voyage, and pretty relaxing for me. 😉 Thanks for thinking of me during the project, means a lot know I might be helping others from afar. No go get back out there and finish the project. 😂
Pretty crazy how they try to change sprung and unsprung weight. In drag racing, we do what’s called an anti-roll bar which is almost the same thing but instead of planning for the bar to spring, we try to make it rigid so it doesn’t spring much. But huge difference on the launch. Great explanation of how it would cause trouble on off road, would be neat if you could couple and uncouple it with a button somehow but probably not realistic. Did you watch some Patey videos yet? Thanks for sharing.
I see and understand what your saying but it all depends on what your trying to improve. Sway bars "tie" the entire chassis together. This is a must for cornering in any terrain. With a sway bar you will be faster than without. Some of the I'll effects can be handles with unequal length A arms. Your chassis will, in theory will loose traction in turns because of the equal length A arms as the chassis rolls to the outside. The outside tire will roll with the same amount of degree as the chassis. And the inside tire will lower and roll to the sAme degree as the chassis reducing the contact patch. A sway bar will help keep a wider contact patch. Now if independent wheel travel is the goal then that's a different chapter. Any sway bar adds a progressive spring rate that can help with G outs. Look up a vehicle called the "Scorpion" built by Soni Honiger (sp?) To see the sway bar theory in the extreme. Love your build. Allways good stuff to talk about. Respect.
I think the biggest take away is you need to think of the sway bar as a 3rd spring instead of just a rigid bar to keep your vehicle from rolling. So just like any suspension spring, it needs to be tuned to it's specific use. Too stiff of a sway bar is bad for off road vehicles that need more suspension travel and articulation, where a stiffer bar is better for say road courses where there is a flatter surface and suspension travel is not an issue.
Wonder if there would be a way to tie the sway bar effect into the Steering so that if you are not steering the sway bar is effectively off, and the percentage of sway bar effect would be relative to the steering angle. Not sure how that would effect low speed steering over big rocks though heh. Or better yet tie it into body roll, but then it would probably have to be some sort of electronically controlled system and that's something entirely different than a simple sway bar.
Do you agree that when you hit a rock on left wheel the sway bar engages shock absorber on the right that helps the main left shock, so yo get 110-130% shock efficiency on one side?
IMO, You only need sway bar at higher speed on road or off road. That's the reason why they install quick disconnect sway bars for rock crawling. Sway bars reduce body roll and therefore reduce rollover. Nice sway bar demo.
Hey man Kevin here from Australia. A very interesting video you certainly explained sway bars so my brain could understand. 🤪. But hey have a look back over the video when your talking and have a look at Ratchet. Doesn't Ratchet look the business he's come a long way . Anyhoo stay safe and healthy man. Peace ✌
Hey Kevin, yes he's coming along real nice. At this point he's really fun to work on. I can't wait to see how he runs/drives. Always good to hear from you buddy. Stay safe. ✌
When the swaybar is active, the chassis will stay lower so the car is more stable. It obviously doesn’t work, when you put an obstacle under the chassis center.
run a light rear sway bar, especially if you run soft springs and valving in the rear since 70% of your weight should be focused near the rear axle. it will turn way better and easier to drive. This is based from my experience. front shouldn't need one since there isn't much weight up there.
I'm really not a fan of sway bars. Ever had a link break on you mid corner at speed? That will require new underwear if you survive. I feel like they just make people drive faster on roads and beyond their abilities.
I see and understand what your saying but it all depends on what your trying to improve. Sway bars "tie" the entire chassis together. This is a must for cornering in any terrain. With a sway bar you will be faster than without. Some of the I'll effects can be handles with unequal length A arms. Your chassis will, in theory will loose traction in turns because of the equal length A arms as the chassis rolls to the outside. The outside tire will roll with the same amount of degree as the chassis. And the inside tire will lower and roll to the sAme degree as the chassis reducing the contact patch. A sway bar will help keep a wider contact patch. Now if independent wheel travel is the goal then that's a different chapter. Any sway bar adds a progressive spring rate that can help with G outs. Look up a vehicle called the "Scorpion" built by Soni Honiger (sp?) To see the sway bar theory in the extreme. Love your build. Allways good stuff to talk about. Respect.
This is the Scorpion. It takes the sway bar theory to the extreme but turns it 90deg. And uses it to force articulate. www.fourwheeler.com/features/131-0608-august-2006-4xforward-tube-buggies/
I agree with everything you said there. But like you pointed out the tricky part is weather you want better cornering, or independent suspension.....It's all a compromise. It's like being married. lol That Scorpion is cool, thanks for the link. And thanks for the discussion.
Best job on sway-bar use and articulation I’ve ever seen. Great job 👍
Thanks 👍
I love the RC buggy explanations, sometimes on a rough 1/8th scale track I'll remove them
Yeah, the RC cars are great for demonstrating things like this.
And I like any excuse to tinker with my RC cars... 😉
you need to check out JQs book about rc cars and suspensions (invisible speed)
It's good to see a video on sway bars, most people don't understand the purpose of them.
Thanks buddy!
watching your first videos and watching you now is very cool , the learning curve went to a teaching curve. thank you
Yeah, sometimes I go back to those videos and almost cringe. Lol. It's been a steep and expensive learning curve. But going through it with all these people I wouldn't change anything. 😊
This past week I was going threw my son's old RC car stuff and was paying particular attention to the suspension. I think suspension is a black art!
Somewhere your son is saying "leave my stuff alone dad" 😁
LOL! Actually he has kids of his own and wants me to ship all of it to him. Not sure that makes economic sense. But most of what I do doesn't make sense ether. It sure seems like the Hot weather has come early this year. Had to fire up the AC for the 1st time.
@@TheEZGZ Nice, his kids will love playing with those. Believe it or not this house doesn't have AC yet, I need to install it. 🤦♂️
Now that's funny. I can just see you adapting an climate control automation system with spare parts from commercial HVAC
Great explanation.......I have always called them Anti Roll Bars..
Yep, I've heard that too.
Amazing! Never had a clue what the sway bars really accomplished....... Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Great demonstration. Thank you!
Thanks!
Great explanation, you made very clear to see what is happening, thankyou.
Thanks!
Very well explained. I imagine i'm taking a right turn. The car will lean to the left. The right wheel gets less pressure and has less grip. The stabilizer transfers power to the left wheel, which can provide more grip.
Yes, it aids more in stability than traction. But I agree with you that you would have less traction without it at the same speed.
@@DougBugBuilder that's actually debatable, you'll have less traction on the axle the swaybar is attached to, most traction is achieved when both wheels see the same force, a swaybar removes force from the lighter inside wheel but puts it on the heavier outside, but because the two wheels are less equally loaded as a result traction is reduced at that axle. What swaybars should be used for IMO is to tune handling between oversteer and understeer, a swaybar will contribute to the roll stiffness, the cars ability to resist rolling in a corner and losing traction as a result, so I might fit a swaybar and lose traction on that axle but the contribution to roll stiffness means I may gain more traction at the other axle.
A stiff rear swaybar will promote oversteer it is robbing the rear of traction but also giving some to the front.
I'm not sure about the logic of fitting front and rear swaybars except I suspect some people like the feel of less body roll despite getting less overall grip. IMO a swaybar is the last thing you should touch to tune your suspension as it robs Peter to pay Paul.
@@arrindaley3714 I agree with you 100%. In fact one of the reasons I put the sway bay on the rear was to give some traction to the front. What I meant in that response is that without it there is so much body roll you really have to slow down for it. Where as with the sway bar you can go into turns faster and have more traction (in the front). But your information is spot on. Thanks for making me use my brain this morning. ;-)
great video doug you helped clear up the hole sway bar delima im having me personally dont like sway i like independent suspension cause your less likely to tip your vehical ima watch some more your videos take care buddy FYI your dog is beautiful
Glad the video helped, thanks for the kind words.
Damn that build is coming along good
Thanks!
Yep. That's what I meant all along.
Swaybar connected on the tarmac.
Decoupled on the dirt.
PS; you need some grease points! 😂
It's already squeaking and it's not out of the garage yet. 🤦♂️😉
lol I learned about sway bars the same way with my RC car too lol. I don't run sway bars on my long travel Tacoma, but they are still in on my lifted/off road STI.
Yeah the RC cars can teach a lot.
In the UK sway bars are called antiroll bars and again in some forms of motorsport we have quick disconnects
Yeah the disconnects are a good option to have.
Very helpful 👌
Very nice explanation ! Thanks. I don’t remember if there’s a swaybar on the front ?
No sway bar in the front. The sway bar in the rear causes there to be more steering in the front. So I won't run a bar up front just for that reason.
Very good demonstration, You use your hand to simulate the running status is incorrect . and the force of the vehicle is from many aspects.
Hi Doug,
You are right with the sway bar, i don't bother to put on my buggy.
You know? Today i have worked all day to my trailing arms of my Buggy, i didn't finished, to much to work for a lonely guy like ne and not so powerfull.
But, i was thinking about you and your wonderfull work all day when i was constructing stufs.
I work slow to make it wright.
I wish i can show you my work, but i'm a shame, myne it's ugly and not profesional, your are like wonders.
Thanks for everything
Vali
Vali, I'm pretty sure you sent me photos a while back. Your buggy is great! Wrenching alone on projects in the garage is part of the voyage, and pretty relaxing for me. 😉
Thanks for thinking of me during the project, means a lot know I might be helping others from afar.
No go get back out there and finish the project. 😂
@@DougBugBuilder thank you for your words
Pretty crazy how they try to change sprung and unsprung weight. In drag racing, we do what’s called an anti-roll bar which is almost the same thing but instead of planning for the bar to spring, we try to make it rigid so it doesn’t spring much. But huge difference on the launch. Great explanation of how it would cause trouble on off road, would be neat if you could couple and uncouple it with a button somehow but probably not realistic. Did you watch some Patey videos yet? Thanks for sharing.
Yeah I watch Patey pretty regularly now. I think what I like the most is his energy.
@@DougBugBuilder what pictured in my head at the beginning when he said building a plane out of scrap parts and what he’s done, are SO far apart lol.
I see and understand what your saying but it all depends on what your trying to improve. Sway bars "tie" the entire chassis together. This is a must for cornering in any terrain. With a sway bar you will be faster than without. Some of the I'll effects can be handles with unequal length A arms. Your chassis will, in theory will loose traction in turns because of the equal length A arms as the chassis rolls to the outside. The outside tire will roll with the same amount of degree as the chassis. And the inside tire will lower and roll to the sAme degree as the chassis reducing the contact patch. A sway bar will help keep a wider contact patch.
Now if independent wheel travel is the goal then that's a different chapter.
Any sway bar adds a progressive spring rate that can help with G outs.
Look up a vehicle called the "Scorpion" built by Soni Honiger (sp?) To see the sway bar theory in the extreme.
Love your build. Allways good stuff to talk about. Respect.
I think the biggest take away is you need to think of the sway bar as a 3rd spring instead of just a rigid bar to keep your vehicle from rolling. So just like any suspension spring, it needs to be tuned to it's specific use. Too stiff of a sway bar is bad for off road vehicles that need more suspension travel and articulation, where a stiffer bar is better for say road courses where there is a flatter surface and suspension travel is not an issue.
I agree, I think thinking of it as a spring is a great way to help tune. Good insight, thanks for the comment.
Wonder if there would be a way to tie the sway bar effect into the Steering so that if you are not steering the sway bar is effectively off, and the percentage of sway bar effect would be relative to the steering angle. Not sure how that would effect low speed steering over big rocks though heh. Or better yet tie it into body roll, but then it would probably have to be some sort of electronically controlled system and that's something entirely different than a simple sway bar.
I think all that is possible, but like you said it would be electronic.
Wow great point awesome thanks
Very welcome!
Do you agree that when you hit a rock on left wheel the sway bar engages shock absorber on the right that helps the main left shock, so yo get 110-130% shock efficiency on one side?
I agree with that. Shock absorbers have a huge effect on the sway bar concerning impacts, but it carries over to the other side as well. 👍
IMO, You only need sway bar at higher speed on road or off road. That's the reason why they install quick disconnect sway bars for rock crawling. Sway bars reduce body roll and therefore reduce rollover. Nice sway bar demo.
I can't argue with any of that. 👍
How about to disconnect the awaybar when you want, like Lexus does?
Hey man Kevin here from Australia.
A very interesting video you certainly explained sway bars so my brain could understand. 🤪.
But hey have a look back over the video when your talking and have a look at Ratchet.
Doesn't Ratchet look the business he's come a long way .
Anyhoo stay safe and healthy man.
Peace ✌
Hey Kevin, yes he's coming along real nice. At this point he's really fun to work on. I can't wait to see how he runs/drives.
Always good to hear from you buddy.
Stay safe. ✌
@@DougBugBuilder ✌
4:50 if springs would be on, chassis would still roll, just probably not as much as only with sway bar though
Is it v6
Yes, it's a Honda J35A3
Great explanation but to simplify it you need sway bars on road and no sway bars on uneven surfaces (off road)
When the swaybar is active, the chassis will stay lower so the car is more stable. It obviously doesn’t work, when you put an obstacle under the chassis center.
run a light rear sway bar, especially if you run soft springs and valving in the rear since 70% of your weight should be focused near the rear axle. it will turn way better and easier to drive. This is based from my experience. front shouldn't need one since there isn't much weight up there.
Thanks, appreciate the first hand experience.
👍👍👍👍💪💪💪💪💯💯💯
✌👌😊
👍🏻🤪
✌🤙
i got it
✌
Doug looks as confused as I am.
Haha, he usually is.
Yea but if you put the shocks back on then the shock will disrupt your car far before the sway bar has a chance to so I think this is a flawed theory
I'm really not a fan of sway bars. Ever had a link break on you mid corner at speed? That will require new underwear if you survive. I feel like they just make people drive faster on roads and beyond their abilities.
Good story, not about the breaking link, but the underwear change. 😁
I see and understand what your saying but it all depends on what your trying to improve. Sway bars "tie" the entire chassis together. This is a must for cornering in any terrain. With a sway bar you will be faster than without. Some of the I'll effects can be handles with unequal length A arms. Your chassis will, in theory will loose traction in turns because of the equal length A arms as the chassis rolls to the outside. The outside tire will roll with the same amount of degree as the chassis. And the inside tire will lower and roll to the sAme degree as the chassis reducing the contact patch. A sway bar will help keep a wider contact patch.
Now if independent wheel travel is the goal then that's a different chapter.
Any sway bar adds a progressive spring rate that can help with G outs.
Look up a vehicle called the "Scorpion" built by Soni Honiger (sp?) To see the sway bar theory in the extreme.
Love your build. Allways good stuff to talk about. Respect.
This is the Scorpion. It takes the sway bar theory to the extreme but turns it 90deg. And uses it to force articulate.
www.fourwheeler.com/features/131-0608-august-2006-4xforward-tube-buggies/
I agree with everything you said there. But like you pointed out the tricky part is weather you want better cornering, or independent suspension.....It's all a compromise. It's like being married. lol
That Scorpion is cool, thanks for the link.
And thanks for the discussion.