N GAUGE MODEL RAILWAY BASICS - INSERTING A POINT
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 พ.ค. 2020
- N GAUGE MODEL RAILWAY BASICS - INSERTING A POINT.
PICCADILLY SIDINGS
/ @piccadillysidingsooga...
Please subscribe to this channel if you want to see future OO gauge content. I will post two more OO gauge videos on both channels as a transition period. After that Piccadilly Sidings will ‘fly solo’.
Over the past few months Ive had many appreciative people thanking me for explaining how to do things, so that got me thinking. I had to install these points anyway so thought Id make a video. Indeed any basic task I could show how I go about doing these less exciting, but necessary tasks. Tell me what you think. IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING YOU WANT DEMONSTRATING, if Im able and have the time, I will. Just say…
Please understand this isn’t really a layout update as such rather a help guide for someone who is unsure or anxious about the process of inserting a point into previously laid track.
In this video I:
- Identify where I want the points.
- Demonstrate how to mark and cut the track, I do advise a rotary cutting tool like a dremel.
- Briefly explain how to remove the track, briefly as I did this in the last video.
- Demonstrate how to remove the end sleepers (or ties as some people call them).
- Demonstrate how to convert an insulfrog into something similar to an electrofrog.
- Demonstrate how to fit the point.
- Explain briefly how to wire this up with a frog juicer.
- Show the setup running.
If you like what you see you may wish to subscribe to the channel, it is completely free of charge and you can be notified when I upload a video.
Piccadilly Model Railway (N gauge)
/ @piccadillymodelrailways
Building New Mills Central
• New Mills Central Stat...
John, your videos are such a fantastic library to use as a resource. I've not had much luck bonding the wires together but I think I might give it a go again. I've been using seeps with the switching polarity function which I solder to the rails of the frog and not breaking the frog jumpers as you show. I imagine this should function the same, though. Thanks for these helps.
Thanks John... yes I constructed a small prototype layout to the proposed... and yes I too had a couple problems with the long diamond crossings.. the trains would travel across ok, then they wouldn’t . I assumed it was due to a slightly worn plastic frog?! Because I’ve got both electrofrog and insulfrog to use I was going to invest in an electrofrog but the wiring and polarity switches make it a bit expensive .. especially if that doesn’t work! So I may take your advice on using them...and re- design if I can... Thanks again... Colin
Hi Colin, the frog juicers do work as long as you remove the tiny wires from the frog to main body of the point. Having said all that Ive bought some insulfrog points recently, mainly because thats what my local model shop sells. I still use the plastic fishplates, no frog juicer. I just put them down as they are. Just need to keep the switch blades clean with IPA and an old toothbrush.
Another way to mark the hole for the point frog dropper is to download and print off the peco turnout and crossing plans :)
Hi thank you, yes, many ways and we each choose the best for ourselves. Thank you for your connent
Kia ora John. Thrilled to have found (albeit youtube algorithm lol) your channel. I'm in the process of modelling London Waterloo 1994 - 2007 so your videos will be an amazing help thank you. When time/work and family allow there will be some serious binge watching. I know you will have answered this in video or elsewhere, curious what the dimensions are of your Piccadilly station please? I’m hoping to get a similar number of tracks terminating in the station. Nga mihi nui James
Hi James,
London Waterloo, brilliant sounds amazing. I do wish other modellers would recreate real stations so I’m thrilled to read this. My version of Manchester Piccadilly, not to scale measures around 1700mm x 600mm but that is N gauge so double that for OO. Just say if you need any help
Interesting video is this, somehow I’ve never heard of a frog juicer but now think I might need 2 for a double slip? Sure I’ll find out in time. Keep the videos coming
Hi Scott, thank you. For modified dcc points where you disconnect the frog from the rest of the point the frog juicer or autofrog is essential. Gaugemaster sell them DCC80. You cam buy them individually for around £6-8 or pack of 3 £17-22, depending on where you get them. Prices have gone up, so you’ll be lucky to find the lower price range. Hoping thats helpful
@@piccadillymodelrailways that’s brilliant, thank you John
Great how to video John !! Thanks for sharing. Cheers Onno.
You are welcome Onno
Many thanks very helpful
Thanks John, first time anyone has shown how to wire the frog on PECO n gauge points. PECO don't.
Ahhhh, glad to help
Great explanation, thank you.
Great tutorial John, it made me smile about having a gap to allow for expansion, I've just watched a tv programme on Paddington and it's region, and the trouble they have with buckling track in the heat. as you never get the clickety clack nowadays as they weld the tracks, with no gaps, so maybe the laws of phisics have changed? lol, cheers, Dave
Hmmmmm no gaps is um dangerous in my eyes. Just imagine high speed trains derailing on buckled track. Ive had it twice few years ago. 1mm every now and again makes all the difference
A great explanation that John of how to fit a point. It's always useful to see how to do something in this hobby as we're not experts in everything. Thanks for sharing cheers Andy
Thank you Andy, we all contribute, and there are many things which I still need to get to grips with. One step at a time
Well described John. It's not often done for n gauge points. My only thought was making the two connections on the point as droppers rather than adding them later (with more soldering). All is sorted with Peco unifrog points but after several years they have still only introduced them at the medium radius.
Thanks Leslie, Ive tried so many ways to get reliable running and this method, for me seems to work well, so I convert all points now unless I can get electrofrogs of course.
Brilliant John, loved every bit about it. Its always good to watch someone else who is experienced doing what appears to be a really difficult job especially in N gauge. Keep them coming mate
Regards Chris
Thanks Chris I’m glad you enjoyed it. Is there anything you would like to see in the basics series?
I am a long way from laying track, so I am learning what I need to know in stages. The only thing I have problems getting my head around is wiring the points and block detection, but I am sure once I start that stage it will become clearer. The idea of different types of points etc at this moment goes straight over my head, but that's basically because I have not looked into it at depth at the moment and its always different when it becomes hands on. But whatever you put on John I will avidly watch.
Regards Chris
Hi Chris, sadly I’m not the best person for block detection but the wiring on points would be as I demo-ed I’m sure?
Great idea mini series of tips ,again well presented and nice tips as you went along
Thanks Paul, anything in particular you’d like to see? I’d do my best to cover if I can
Excellent tutorial. A ‘basics’ series would be a good idea. Liked your tips on getting the fishplates onto the existing track. 👍
Thank you John, I’m so glad it’s good for you. Any suggestions on subject. Had someone suggest programming basic CVs for realistic running
Piccadilly Model Railway By John Warner CV’s sounds good but even more basic would be how to gauge how far apart parallel tracks are laid (where to pin the track, any tools you use). Perhaps a ‘basic’ on lighting around the layout.
Ok I’ll see what I can do thx
Great tutorial John. It’s ok if you know these things but a lot of people don’t even realise you can change an insulfrog point to an electro frog point. Great explanation and very helpful to many I am sure.. nice one, Chris
Thanks Chris, it took me a while to realise it myself, and had sooooo many problems with points, stalling being the big one but also wheels catching the opposite track at the frog causing short. Have you had that. So got me thinking about electrofrogs and the difference. My local model shops don’t sell electrofrogs so much not popular apparently. It got me thinking.
Fantastic for me as a Newbie
Great, welcome to the hobby.
Great tutorial !!
LG Gert
Hi John - That was very useful and it is relevant for all gauges . And that was a great tip on fishplates !!…..Cheers Kev
Thanks Kev, yes definitely similar to OO, although the larger scale points are set up for the modifications, and seems peco has forgotten to do this in N.
Hi John - good video - I think these jobs which we would think nothing of probably instill fear into those just starting in the hobby. The bit I found most interesting was the turning of an insulfrog point into basically an electofrog. The one advantage is using the existing wires on the Frog, joining together and extending. On an Electrofrog point you have to solder a wire into the tiny "v" part of the point - which ain't easy in N gauge. That said the new Peco Unifrog points in N now come with the wire already attached so over time it won't be an issue/problem. Cheers Euan
Thanks Euan, dont know abt you but I’ve had so many issues with points either stalling or shorting (where wheels catch the opp rail on the frog. Have u had that?)
I do this now to all my points and reliability has improved dramatically.
@@piccadillymodelrailways when I used the Insulfrogs I did have the issue of stalling - hence my decision to replace them all with Electofrog. The only issue is with the 3 way points - they can play up from time to time.
John, Very useful. Regards Stephen.
Thank you Stephen, did you want to see anything in particular
John, Right now, I don't have a layout. I have a box of track, a couple of cross overs, a point and an assymetric 3 way point, some incomplete scratch builds. I'm happy making models at the moment. Can't get out to get a baseboard for the module I'm working on at the moment. I intend to use this to practice the skills I need when layout construction begins. Then the questions will flow. Regards Stephen.
Lol, ask away. I’m hoping many questions will be answered by varying TH-cam channels. Chadwick model railway, Dean Park Station (Dave class47) and Everard Junction are excellent channels who also explain how things are done.
John, Yes. I watch most of these channels. Today I've been doing the research to enable me to build a 200' octagonal mill chimney, n scale. Need a2 grey board... on its way. Thought I had stuff in 40+ years old art folders, but no. At some point it will all come together. I bought the box of track so I could loop the room, but lockdown knackered that, no timber!!! I'm a big fan of your style and will keep watching. Regards Stephen.
Thanks Stephen, I’m pleased you’ve at least started to get sorted. When I ordered the wood for Piccadilly sidings, I phoned the wood yard the next day only to find I was JUST in time as they had just stopped taking orders for wood. Guess I was lucky.
Great video and highly informative for me, thanks 😆
Your welcome Charlie, glad it was helpful. Please say if you would like to see anything in particular and I’ll try to include it, no promises though.
Very informative John great tutorial , really well done 👍🏻
Thanks Sam, thought I’ve got the insert the points anyway so someone might be interested.
Piccadilly Model Railway By John Warner I was interested I havnt modified anyway but I have stay alives in everything that was just the path I chose at the time
I’d love the fit stay alive capacitors but in N gauge there is next to no space, so this does work well
Please keep the ‘how to’ vlogs going, rather watch them than endless running videos.
With having a Z21 as well, I’d be interested in how to wire your points back to the Z21.
Thanks Andy, I’m glad you liked it. Regarding the wiring I normally solder droppers to the side of every point and solder that to the bus wire. The green frog wire is soldered to the ‘frog or F’ terminal on the frog juicer. The other two frog juicer terminals are connected to the bus wire
The bus wire comes out of the ‘track out’ port of the Z21. I always use the terminal block plugs on my layouts, especially test track as it’s quick and easy to switch controllers.
Hoping thats helpful Andy, but please say if you prefer the video. I’d probably inc that as an intro to a layout video as its quick to explain.
Hi John... great videos and tutorials! I did “ speak” to you about points some time ago and as a returning modeller I have found your channel a gem! I have decided to use surface mounted point motors mainly for practical reasons. I think I’m correct that you do too?..
Can I ask how you control your points......and if I don’t use polarity changeover switching ( juicers) with DCC while installing Insulfrogs.. I assume they will be isolated as they would on a DC layout?
For me I don’t think that will make it a problem but any advice really appreciated for someone who has leaped 30 years into this era...
Thank you again for your fantastic informative channel. Best regards.. Colin
Hi Colin, thank you for your continued support and am so glad that the videos are helpful to you. TBH Im currently only using point motors ( yes surface mounted Peco pL 11) at the far end of the layout because they are harder to get to, the nearer sides are still manual with my finger, lol. To power them I use DCC Concepts accessory decoders and they link directly into the Z21 on a track plan you create in the app. I do use the Gaugemaster DCC80 Frog juicers on the electrofrog points without issue. You can also use the insulfrogs too, just put the plastic fishplates on the ‘V’ or frog of the point as wheels can short out the point at the frog where rails almost touch. Just put them in with no further modification, you do need to keep the switch blades clean though as dirty can gather at the points of contact On DCC there are no isolating points the WHOLE LAYOUT is live all the time, as the decoders have to talk to the trains to move etc. Hoping thats helpful. If you get stuck I can call you via facebook messenger, Im on Summer hols will start prepping for new term in 2-3 weeks
Hi John... thank you so much for a detailed reply! I fully understand now and really appreciate your time explaining these basics.... and that’s where the trouble lays. I have a decent knowledge of electrics and electronics but I fully admit I created my own brain fog around Electrofrogs and Insulfrogs! I changed my thinking from one to another.. on a daily basis !!!.., but have decided on Insulfrogs and surface point motors which will fit my needs totally. Thanks again for your kind gesture to help.. I think I’m ok at the moment and will continue to work my way through your excellent tutorials. One last question if I may John... I’ve put in a long insulfrog diamond crossing .. on test it seems ok but I understand these can be a problem. Is additional wiring needed on these using DCC? ( My stock is diesel and electric.. no short wheel base locos ?)... Cheers John.. Thanks again... Best Regards.. Colin
Hi, no worries just say if I can help. Insulfrog diamond crossings should just slot in. Remember plastic fishplates on the V (frog) metal on the rest SHOULD work fine.
Ive had lots of issues with diamond crossings due to derailments. I decided to rip them out in the end. If you not bought them reconfigure your track plan. IF YOU HAVE, try it see how they go, try to avoid gluing them down just in case you end up swapping them out. Some stock likes them other trains may constantly derail. Hoping thats helpful.
Great, helps alot 😄😄🤭 will help massively with when i have to start wiring points, how do you wire a none insul point (with no plastic on the cross) as i never see n gauge ones on how to wire them but all ways 00 gauge ones and there point design is different to the n gauge ones
Hi, thankyou I’m glad it was helpful, I’m finding many people saying similar.
Unfortunately I don’t have a spare to show on a video, sorry abt that so Ill try to explain. The principle is the same. There are three things that need to be done:
1. The frog needs to be isolated from the body of the point. Either by breaking wires underneath as I showed or you could cut through the wing cut with a dremel. The latter is risky as the track needs to be stable for trains to cross.
2. As shown sold a small wire joining the stock rail (outside) to the wing rail (inner fixed rail). Make sure the two sides don’t touch. Remember you will need to cut out the webbing between two sleepers.
3. Put in a dropper wire for the polarity switch or frog juicer.
Hope that was helpful as I’m not able to do the video as I don’t have any spare electrofrog points. Some N gauge points do come with the dropper attached. I always cut it to about and inch and solder a tough wire. Then cover with heat shrink.
@@piccadillymodelrailways thank you :), so it is almost the same but with slight differences
GW RailFan yes, unfortunately I haven’t got an electrofrog handy to show
I also have the snake attachment to my dremel 4000. It's honestly the only way! I only use it with goggles and a face mask though for safety.
Absolutely, and great advice, you just couldnt see my PPE.
Hi John,
Well done for not forgetting the basics I was surprised you do not use electrofrog points can you not get them in "n" gauge!!!!. Have you seen Allans new video very interesting as it explains his actions and I now hope he can deal with these morons if they come back. Keep well and safe.
Cheers Robert.
Thanks Robert, yes you can get electro frog but my local shops only stock a few saying insulfrog is more popular and sells. So they are harder to come by, especially now with the current situation. So thought I’d show what I do to convert an insulfrog and are nearly as good.
Yes definitely saw Allan’s video. Sent him a long message of support just before the new video. We must ALL stick together support each other and we do. So pleased he didn’t walk away
Thank you for this, very helpful. Using the frog juicer, is this just for DCC or do you need it for DC as well?
Hi Ron DCC, if you are running DC you would be better with isolating points, ie with plastic frogs, the pointed bit on the V part. Hoping thats helpful and makes sense.
Hi John, yes that’s helpful. My layout is DC and I’m using insulfrog points.
Hi John.. hope you are well. As a returning modeller , I was a bit confused at first why you used a ‘ frog juicer’ on your insulfrog points... then the penny dropped!! Funnily enough I’m ok with electrofrogs and I’ve got quite a few of each which will be used but wanted to ask, did you use IRJ’s on the frog ends with the ‘ juicers?’... I’ve never used these before but can see areas where these would be preferable.. Any advice always appreciated...Best regards.. Colin
Hi Coilin IRJ - insulated rail joiner?
Never heard them referred to like that before had to think. I sometimes call them plastic fishplates. Yes, PECO always advise using these on ALL point frogs regardless of insul or electro frogs because the frog (electro) is one piece of metal spanning both ‘+’ and ‘-‘ polarities, to avoid the short we use a plastic fishplate. Even on insulfrogs, whilst the two frog rails are separated , but only by a very small amount. Ive had occasions where a loco, wagon or carriage has caught the opposite rail and caused a short circuit. I always use the plastic fishplates even if I dont use a frog juicer..
Whilst modern controllers are very good at detecting shorts and shutting down the system, it can be annoying and doesn’t do the decoders any good. Gaugemaster do a fantastic frog juicer ‘DCC80’ these days they run in at around £7 each or £17-21 for pack of 3. You do need to solder wires to the tabs on the back but the instructions are great. Two wires to ‘+’ and ‘-‘ and the third to the frog.
Hoping that helps…
That’s brilliant .. thanks John. I’ll get those ... Communicating with with the model railway community ( such as yourself John) is the best way to get the knowledge needed.. and boy I need that 😄 ( plus of course trial and error.. but at times £££ 🥴) .. far better than out of a book... I agree with one of your other subscribers .. that it’s possible to turn an insulfrog into a ‘hybrid’ electrofrog! Until I saw your video I never knew that.. While talking about ‘ electronics’ have you used power districts to isolate sections ... and/ or DCC bus line filters etc... The DCC system is great ... far better than the analogue.. but it can become so involved .. that’s why your videos are great.. good practical advice.. thank you again .. Colin
Thank you I am a primary school teacher , so always TRY to make things clear
Another great video John, thanks. One question if I may, I see some video's where people power the rails at the end of the point but, I noticed that you didn't. Is there a reason please?
Hi Clive. How do you mean power the point at the end?
If you mean at the frog the V bit then I did through the frog juicer. Which takes power from the bus wire underneath and decides if the frog needs + or -.
If that doesn’t answer your question please come back to me
@@piccadillymodelrailways sorry John, wasn't well asked by me! Some videos I have seen, power the frog and also both rails at the start of the point ( the single bit of the Y if you like!!)
Hi, as I said the frog is powered. I chose not to power the main point from the bus directly for time sake. With metal fishplates at the bottom of the point, it works. If in the future power fails there I will then power the point. There is no rule about powering every piece of track, and indeed it isn’t absolutely necessary, I would advice a number of droppers, around the layout at varying points. Hope that helps.
@@piccadillymodelrailways Great, thanks John!
Hi John another great video mate yes i would like to more videos like this one i model the wcml in the 1980s in and aground lancaster and heysham harbour and stranraer harbour in southwest Scotland with intercity boat trains to and from London euston and glasgow central in 00 I have been modelling railways for over 50s years now your but your video was every intheresting you always learn something new every day old dog like me mate i have finish my 2 track working colour light signal gantry on my layout like the signal gantries at south end of Carlisle keep up the great work mate clive
Brilliant Clive Id love to see that, as you know Piccadilly is Manchester so kinda similar area. I’m very interested in seeing your signals as I don’t have any on either layout yet. I want to do OO layout signals soon but need advice what and where.
Any suggestions on what you like to see on the ‘basics’ videos? Had one suggestion about CV settings.
Piccadilly Model Railway By John Warner hi john the signals gantries are scratch built the signals head are from berko the gantries are built from plastruct webbing the signals are controlled from rotary switches from gauegemaster the siganls work on 9v batteys mate sorry I am not on Facebook I only have e-mail I hope this information is of interest to you mate clive
@@piccadillymodelrailways hi John I would have a look at Daveclass47 at dean park I think he has a video on colour light signal s mate I do know everard junction have a video on wire colour light signals mate clive
Hi John, great idea for a mini series. I’m only getting started so this is super handy for me. I’ve inherited an old exhibited layout and the points are tired and cutting out despite hours of cleaning. Does this insulfrog adaption work On an analog layout and can it be retrofitted without taking the points off the baseboard? Thanks
Hi David, the points can definitely be retro fitted as I described. How easy it is to remove the old ones is hard to say without seeing them. Depends on what is underneath and what the track has been glued down with. Have you tried thorough cleaning with isopropyl alcohol and and old toothbrush? Ie switch blad contacts, where switch blades connect to wing rails, inside check rails, frog rails etc.
If that doesn’t alter the situation check with a multimeter that the track is receiving power at loads of places. If the is a dead zone in a generally live point then yes change it.
For DC I would connect the stock rails to the wing rails with tiny bits of wire, but DONT break the connection to the frog.
Hoping that’s helpful
Piccadilly Model Railway By John Warner
Thanks for your response! I’m terrified I’ll make a hash of it and end up having to rip out full lengths of rails in between scenery just to improve the running of a point or two. I’ll give those tips a go 🙌🏻🙌🏻
If you’ve exactly the same as what is there it should be easier than you think. Can you send me some pics or even a short video on messenger. Might be easier to help you
Hi John, nice video. Was wondering why you didn’t use electrofrog straight away? Provides such a more stable operation, looks better (no plastic blob) too and wiring isn’t much more complicated neither.
Yes I agree, but I’ve used what I’ve got. My local shops even before CVD don’t stock many electrofrog points, certainly not the ones I need at the time. They tell me the insulators are far more popular as people apparently don’t like modifying them. Hence I buy what I can get. The big stores like Hattons etc have been out of stock for quite a while hence...
Its not my choice, but even electrofrogs still require similar alterations
If there insulfrogs why do you need the frog juicers? On my oo layout I used insulfrog without even using isolating fishplates! Is there something different with N gauge? I need to know before I start as I’m planning insulfrogs in my n gauge fiddle yard
Hi Steve, I had enormous issues with wheels shorting on the frogs as the gap on peco points between the frog rails is tiny so the plastic fishplates stop that but converting it to a near electro frog really helps with reliability.
Piccadilly Model Railway By John Warner I shall bare that in mind then during the planning stage!