Scientists aren't typically renowned for being good communicators. I think you, Dr. Barkley, are an excellent communicator: clear and concise with a bit of humour even during the technical stuff. I think there is huge value in these videos and very much appreciate them, thank you!!
@@russellbarkleyphd2023 You've single handedly done more for my understanding of my ADHD than any other human, the least I can do is pay a compliment on TH-cam, haha. So deeply appreciate your work, truly. My ADHD is on the much more severe side, and every little bit of knowledge helps me better manage the condition. Sure would be more manageable if I could find some Teva factory Adderall, but that's luck of the draw for now! Speaking of which, would you consider speaking on the differences that can be found in medications from different sources? I just don't understand how different manufacturers can change Adderall formulation so wildly and still call them Adderall, especially since they don't work even half as well as other brands of Adderall. If the drug is so regulated due to its potential for misuse, how is tampering with it going to help the folks who need it most? I just don't get it. Hope you're staying cool and safe!
I don't generally feel like I'm smart/creative/outside the box because of ADHD. I feel like I'm those things in spite of it. I think if you could magically switch it off, that's when you'd see any real giftedness I might have. The only time I have ever felt like ADHD gives me an advantage is when working with a team on some kind of urgent problem. Setbacks and mistakes, out of the blue direction changes, unexpected results (chaos and failure) don't tend to demoralize me and I'm able to pivot towards the next set of possibilities without getting emotionally hung up on disappointment or trying to figure out the whys. That's not necessarily a neurological advantage. That's just desensitization due to a life filled with chaos and failure. As far as hunting or warfare go, I've only noticed that my system is somewhat like opportunistic hunting strategies in animals. I am pretty happy to stay in one spot conserving energy until spotting the target, then it's usually a short, intense pusuit. I'm also easily prompted to break off one 'chase' that isn't looking optimal for one that looks better. So, multiple 'prey' are able to satisfy the impulse. Aside from that, I don't posess any of the skills that make for a successful hunter, and especially not a good soldier.
The idea that ADHD is an adaption that makes me special is a fun and entertaining idea. But it's not an idea that helps me, except to perhaps feel better about myself. But if that's just based on a false assumption, does it really help me? I wasn't diagnosed until last week at the age of 49. Most of my life I was labeled a "creative genius" and I was told this was why I did badly in grade school. I'm sure people told me this to make me feel better about myself, but it didn't work. I grew up feeling like a failure of a human being that people felt compelled to make up niceties about so they didn't hurt my feelings. When I found out I had ADHD and I had "impairment" and "dysregulation" everythign made so much more sense. I could never do anything about being a "creative genius" but I can do something about ADHD. So many things. Also I don't feel like a failure of a human being anymore. As a creative genius most days I felt like an imposter, as an ADHDer I feel like my authentic self. I don't need a story to make myself feel better. I am different, but I am no better or worse than any other person. I am just me.
The last part of that (I am no better or worse than anyone else); how do you do that? I really believe people without adhd or other neurodevelopmental disorders are better than me. They’re more ‘complete’ or like they are full people, with brains that fully developed. I have a lot of envy towards the complete people. I feel embarrassed just for existing as someone with a disorder. I can’t stop viewing the world through a hierarchical lens, with myself near the bottom
@@joelwilliams3115See we are generally worse at doing things..in this society! Human society hasn't always been about memorisation, organisation and doing onerous tasks. Our hyperfocus, low tolerance at doing things the same way, etc could have proven an amazing asset to a society that craved innovation. To make a very dumbed down the explanation for it, everyone dragged stuff until one person got really bored with that and made the wheel.
Listen I don’t know you but just based on your comment it really still sounds as if you think of yourself as lesser. You aren’t any worse than anyone you’re just different. Same as myself. We all have a variety of strengths and weaknesses and adhd just changes those.
@@tylerdavis3 thanks. Rejection sensitivity doesn't go away over night. But I am better at observing it from a distance now and understanding what's going on.
Thank you Dr. Barkley, just hearing this to remind me that I'm not a terrible person, but I have a neuro- developmental issue I am constantly battling, makes me feel less like a piece of crap/failure, even though I'm often exhausted from trying with everything I have to just be "normal" and function better. Your words are literally soothing. I do NOT use ADHD as an excuse, I try to act like I don't have it. It is an explanation though, which is just encouraging enough to keep going. (I am also on medication, which is a critical tool used for not making everyone around me so mad, inadvertently, and also staying alive while doing stuff like driving.) Your educated and professional background gives validity to this disorder. I do think personally I would thrive better in an uncivilized society, even back in the wild west, or even on a farm. Nature is 100x better to be surrounded by than desks with paperwork where you have to remember tons of details, not make any extra movements or noises, and fake being ok with that artificial environment. Physical work is exceedingly better than the other options, for my brain gets tired way faster than my body on any given day.
I thought the adaptation theory was that having some adhd in a population or tribe would lead to some people being awake all night protecting the tribe from some dangers and resulting in the traits being passed along better than tribes without. Assuming adhd individuals are more likely to be night owls. ADHD individuals would likely have had an easier time in less technologically advanced societies as physical activity, social activity, and cognitive demand were more closely intertwined, keeping adhd people more focused
I didn't know you had a TH-cam channel, Dr Barkley! Definitely subscribing. Your lectures from 10-15 years ago were some of the first educational content about ADHD (and indeed mental health in general) that I ever came across. Thank you for working so hard on this subject for so long and for trying to help people understand the disorder. Maybe you can try your hand at acting when the world wakes up and demands a Jimmy Buffett biopic.
I am able to see some of the benefits in my life from ADHD, the problem is that other people fail to understand the lack of control over those benefits. I love how i am a "jack of all trades" but i wish that was a choice instead of a side effect.
@@AmandaJuneHagarty It's the kind of science that works with simplistic models that leave out second-order effects. Adaptation can happen at the level of the group, not just the individual: what inconveniences you and others around you in the short run may be crucial for the survival of the group in the long run.
I found it uplifting. The “it’s a gift” narrative does real harm by perpetuating the stigma that it’s not a “real” disability/you don’t need help/it’s over diagnosed/blah blah. It makes the most extreme expressions of that stigma more plausible by attacking if it’s a disorder at all (even if its “positive” on the surface.) So I find science refuting that narrative super uplifting and comforting. It’s a disorder for which we need, and can get, help. The help exists, and it is real, and it really does help. 10/10.
Love your content, sir! When I bring up something I saw here to my therapist, I refer to you as “our guy, Russell!” No disrespect at all, Dr Barkley!! My therapist has ADHD and is rocking it taking care of others! She was one of the therapists recommended by my PCP and here I am at 55, now diagnosed! Your content is so informing and VERY MUCH APPRECIATED by us neuro-divergents out here! Much love!!! ❤
For me, though there is a slight difference, it feels too much like the narrative of "ADHD is a superpower." The focus of these always felt too external and are usually talking about creativity or hyper focus. Sure it's a "superpower" when others can benefit from the creativity or fast and detailed work, but what about when you hyper focus on the "wrong" thing, forget to eat or drink for hours, and have missed other commitments? Is it a "superpower" for the person with ADHD, who in this situation, ends up with unmet needs and guilt/shame about letting others down? Maybe my ADHD does make me better at some things than others, or maybe those are strengths I would have had without the ADHD as well. But even if it was all the ADHD, I would give those up in a heartbeat if it meant basic functioning wouldn't be so hard. That's the part I feel like these positive spins don't account for. It also feels like there's often an unspoken message in these, attributing all your positive traits to your "ADHD superpower," but at the same time saying "oh don't let your ADHD define you, you should just overcome your challenges. " My ADHD is disabling, it is a disability. When I am struggling with basic care tasks and exhausted from simply existing, someone telling me it's a "superpower" is a slap in the face. I won't speak for everyone with ADHD, because I think each person should be able to define their experience how they want. That said, I do still dislike people within the community using these definitions, even if it's true to them, because it helps perpetuate ableism against those with more disabling ADHD.
Something can be important for society while being a hindrance to the individual and an annoyance to even society itself almost all of the time. You may be almost always underperforming, being criticized for not being efficient and hyper focusing on the wrong things, bullied for not pulling your weight, you or someone else like may also be the one who, due to the very traits that make life for you and those around you a pain most of the time, end up solving something crucial, maybe even existential, for the group (only to be forgotten the next moment, and criticized all the same the next day). In other words, adaptation can happen at the level of the group, not just the individual: groups without enough people with these traits faded away or just got erased by something unexpected none of the hard workers colud find a solution for, and groups with too many starved to death because there were not enough hard workers.
This makes alot of sense to me, thank you for this lecture. Nobody claims that having low IQ is some kind of adaptation, there are not very many benefits to low IQ but there are still people with low IQ. People with ADHD are just on the lower end of the distribution on the bell curve of executive funtioning like people with low IQ are on the lower end of the distribution of certain traits of intelligence. There sure are some benefits to having ADHD there just aren't very many.
Actually in certain circumstances, it probably is adaptive to have lower IQ. In modern societies, for example, there is a slightly negative relationship between IQ and number of children, so evolutionarily lower IQ actually seems to be selected for in the current environment. Also in the ancestral landscape, higher IQ probably meant larger brain and a greater chance of dying during child birth and higher caloric needs all else equal which could increase starvation risk. So basically, it's complicated, and actually yes it is possible for lower scores in apparently universally useful traits like intelligence to be adaptive.
The benefits may be mostly at the level of the group, not the individual, and only on a longer timescale: rare but huge jumps of productivity through that one great invention by the dude whom everyone criticized for just daydreaming all day or wasting time on useless crap, discoveries of new resources by someone who dared to venture out farther than others instead of working on the potato field, or when an unexpected threat hits and there's a need for a quick and unorthodox solution to save the group. Simplistic models don't consider such tail events.
As a young psychologist with adhd myself, i often have parents ask me about this. I find it easy to steer the conversation in a direction the parents' worries and concerns about the diagnostic label of 'ADHD.' It usually allows me to steer them back to the present moment and how their childrens' impairments are all that matters today.
But most parents who have 1 child go on to have another child (or even 3 or more!), so why not tell them how to prevent ADHD in any future kids they may have?
@@moondog7694 It is largely genetic, you cannot 'prevent' it - sure, don't drink, do drugs, or cause any other prenatal injury to the baby.. but that won't prevent it if it's genetic. So it's a bit pointless.
I think this might be the first time I've heard anyone talk about "acquired ADHD" and I just found myself nodding through the whole section. I had difficulties as a child, but not to a level that I was impaired in any noticeable way. I was premature and my mother was an addict, so not the best start, but I i had my first brain injury with I nearly when I was 11. The impairment and difficulties became immediately noticeable. In the following following ~17 years, I engaged in numerous high risk activities. Skateboard, parkour, mountain biking and anything I could throw myself at that could risk serious injury/death. During those years, I had numerous TBI's in the form of pretty severe concussions, then at 28 I suffered a series of strokes. After which, any issues i previously had were drastically exacerbated. It took almost ten years of assessments, second opinions and beyond before I i was diagnosed with ASD and comorbid ADHD last year at 37 years old. Yes, the idea that I'm "special" or somehow retain some residual traits from our ancestors could be a nice self sooth if I was so inclined. But, in reality, it's likely just a series of unfortunate events that just happen to leave me with a specific combination of brain injuries that now present as ADHD turned up to 11.
ADHD sure doesn't make me feel better adapted for anything? Unless that thing is forgetting to eat because i am so involved in something that i cant even form the thought to pull away. Or once i fizzle out on whatever i am stuck in, i am unable to control the amount of food or alcohol i consume because i am so dopamine starved. It seems like my life is one ongoing boom and bust cycle of sensation seeking that exists totally outside of my ability to consciously intervene. Then the cycle of shame, frustration, regret, that happens afterwards when i notice my behavior. Which leads to more of the previous unhealthy activities and starts the entire cycle over again. If it is an adaptation i don't want it, and I cant believe i lived like that for 46 years. The drinking and drugs, unhealthy eating and sleeping habits, the unhealthy relationships and risk taking. I am lucky to be alive and even luckier to be in good health and not in jail. I am one of the people who definitely crossed over into conduct disorders and it could have gone much worse. I am lucky. When people frame ADHD as somehow beneficial it is insulting. As if it is somehow possible to harness it for great things. I can't even harness it for simple things like emptying a dishwasher. So i spend way more time handwashing everything i use immediately because it wont ever get done otherwise. I waste incredible amounts of time on abstract coping mechanisms that i myself dont even understand most of the time. It is tedious beyond my ability to describe. I am incredibly grateful for a simple small dose of Adderall xr that helps regulate this "wonderful adaptation." And i am so grateful for your work making this information available and easily accessible. If anyone reading this sees the things i describe in their kids or family members please get them assessed. Do not let them live like i did.
Your life may suck, people may blame you for stuff you can't control, and you may be a constant underperformer, but groups without people like you fade into obscurity for lack of progress or due to unforeseen threats that everybody is too busy to plant potatoes or answer emails to find a solution for. Basically, you may perform somewhat negatively most of the time, but you may be the key to the survival of the group once every few years (only to be forgotten the next day; yup, it's sucks being you). In other words, adaptation happens at the level of the group as well, not just on the level of the individual. It also doesn't have to be acknowledged: you may be bullied for the kind of person you are, and groups without people like you may still die out.
Thanks a lot for making these videos. World class information about my ADHD for free! Do you have a video that goes more in depth about changing my environment to compensate for executive dysfunction? How can I build a life with solid guide rails? You mention charts, posters, clocks. I struggle to apply these tools well. I've recently taken to having many clipboards in each room to track my cleaning and shopping lists which has been helpful.
Yes, it would be helpful to learn what Dr. Barkley recommends. In the meantime, I wonder if you have seen the youtube channel “How To ADHD” by Jessica McCabe. I find she has many useful tips for dealing with ADHD in everyday life. One of them matches what you are doing: have the things that you need to do a task readily available to you at the point of performance for that task. And in my case, I have taken that to include To-Do lists as well - similar to how you use them. There are many other tips, of course. Here are a few that I found particularly helpful for myself: * Get treated for trauma, there is some likelihood that ADHDers have it. This can be quite disabling, on top of ADHD. * Find some form of time-management structure that helps. For example, friendly meetings can help (team meetings, customers meetings), so that there are small deliverables relatively often. Avoid meaningless / contentless meetings though. * “Body doubling” can help me get started on a task, staying on the task or returning to it, and finishing the task. This is someone who is either simply present, or who sits down with my task and simply starts doing it, in a friendly, open and non-preemptive manner, and then I can come in and “help”. And soon I will get immersed in that task and take over. This practice may need to be repeated whenever re-engagement with the task is necessary. (But don’t forget to take breaks too.) This is like borrowing the executive function of that other person, activating my dopamine and my interest in that task.
There are a few ideas in the video on adult ADHD, as well as the one on executive functioning and on time blindness, but I will post more as time permits.
Remember: Cultural anthropolgy is amonsgt the softest of soft sciences. It is (almost) never based on controlled experimentation. The historical record is often incomplete or inaccurate. Few modern cultures exist in isolation from one another. Which is to say that all we have in the sphere of cultural anthropolgy are theories. The doctor refutes two such theories on reasonable grounds, but this video is explicitly neither a through examination of the history of cultures, nor an attempt to map ADHD traits to suitability within those cultures. Woefully few such studies currently exist. Which is to say that we may yet demonstrate that ADHD has been more beneficial in previous human cultures, or simply less of an imparement, compared with how well suited it is for modern culture. Equally we may never be able to convincely demonstrate that, but instead theorise on cultural change thay might occur that could lead to ADHD traits being less of an imparement and more of a benefit.
There's a simpler explanation: traits can be somewhat harmful to the individual and the group in the short run and still be crucial for the group's survival in the long run. Kind of like a hedge in finance (when done right, that is): it costs you some money, but it keeps you in business when others go bust in the next crash. The person who's busy inventing crap (most of which fails) won't be a top producer in the general case, but when something works, they may double production overnight. They also tend to be the people who can come up with solutions against unforeseen threats, thus saving the group from extinction every once in a while.
Second-order effects cannot be ignored: something that isn't adaptation on the level of the individual may well be adaptation on the level of the group. ADHD may be inconvenient to the person, undesired by their peers, and even mildly detrimental to the entire group in "everyday life" (when things are going fine and as expected), but the simple fact these people are there everywhere suggests societies that lacked or didn't put up with them simply didn't survive. Groups without such people may have stopped innovating and as such ended up overtaken by others, or they may have lacked the necessary level of craziness to adjust to or deal with unexpected events or changes: threats that are rare enough that we can pretend they never happen, but when they do, they are existential, with the potential to erase the group once every few hundred years or so, and then it's game over, they disappear and become forgotten. On the other extreme, too many of these kind of people would stop a group from having enough stability to e.g. produce enough food to survive.
A good demonstration for this was the show "Naked and Afraid XL" from 2015: groups of people were dropped off in the wilderness relatively far from each other, with barely any tools to survive on. One woman, Dani Julien, was a bit on the weird side; she tended to wander off alone, exploring, and not really contributing to the regular activities (food gathering, etc). Others in the group didn't take this well; in the end, she got bullied so much that she tapped out. What those people didn't realize was that the only reason the smaller groups found each other, and the reason they were at that relatively well-supplied location (mango trees, creek with fish, etc) was because Dani had found the other group while she was exploring, and Dani had found the place while she was exploring. Yes, the menial work done by the others was absolutely necessary, but their entire hospitable situation was the result of the odd one out in their group doing her "weird" and "usless" activities: the very things that they hated her for.
I want to believe you but “The simple fact that ADHD people are everywhere suggests societies that lacked them did not survive.” It could also mean the COMPLETE OPPOSITE. That they could only support that many people with ADHD. (If you understand what I mean) Maybe a Hunter gatherer group with 100 normal people was the best, a couple of sick or unhealthy (adhd included) people could be supported, but then a group with 10 or more ADHD people was dead.
Personally, I think the thought is nice to think that there might have been some benefits way back when. And it's nice to know some successful people who had the disorder. Though only if we can use that to motivate us. Does the fact others have succeeded despite the same hardship as you make you more likely to pursue your dreams and goals? If so, that's probably a wonderful thing for someone with a disorder when finding motivation and staying on task is hard. On the other hand, one should be cautious to not let it get to their head. Don't act like there's nothing wrong with you, because someone else succeeded with your disability. For example, there are sprinters with no legs. People that run on their hands. It's fantastic, but someone without legs shouldn't use that to say they are perfectly normal, when they aren't. Understand your disorder, work with it, put in extra effort that regular people don't have to, and you can succeed with a disorder, but act like theirs nothing wrong, and you're making your condition worse. Personally, I wouldn't cure my ADHD if I could. It's a part of me. I like me. I'm fine with other people with ADHD being happy with who they are, but they are faced with extra challenges, and they need to understand that to work past them.
The main point is we add’ers learn differently and see the world differently. I have too take a moment when I enter a place that has so many stimulating things but quickly I can catalogue almost everything and my spatial awareness is very good. But if I’m cooped up for too long I brood and day dreaming takes over. Learning I was an extrovert I gain my energy by being around people or animals
I was a late diagnoses, part way through my psych degree about 10 years ago and I had no idea how much of the picture I was missing. Your videos and information have been so helpful in creating a better understanding of my adhd. Thank you so much for the work you do, I recommend it to every parent or fellow adhd person I can. Having this information earlier could only have helped.
god bless thank you sir, I am an ACOA 25 year old who checks all the boxes you speak of. I am so grateful this content is available, I have two bachelor's degrees but nowhere in that $40k was help or information or teaching like this. I will be in class thursday.
I'm still a bit skeptical about the contents of this particular video, though Dr Barkley's other videos are helping me a lot. I think that genetics being passed down from generation to generation is conducive to the idea that ADHD is a 'throwback' to the hunter/warrior mind, since one would imagine that it was the hunters and warriors who were most successful in passing on their genes. Being easily distracted when hunting would have saved us from predators; this is genetic selection, I think; not just hunter culture. There certainly isn't enough scientific evidence to support this hunter mind theory but there wasn't any evidence when when Crick & Watson purported that all living things shared DNA and might have common ancestry. As Einstein said, "imagination is more important than knowledge". Sometimes the actual evidence comes after, to support outlandish postulations.
Hi Dr Barkley, I certainly agree with your view. People like to have this simplistic view of adaptation and evolution. In the end it is simply chance, and the affects of many many variables on that particular chance. There isn't always an explicit choosing of 'adaptable' traits, where in if it is 'good/useful' then it continues to survive. How would we argue for other genetic disorders/variations?
You would do so by matching the disorders' manifestations or symptoms against a list of favorable outcomes consistent with the needs and values of the individual culture, I would think.🤔
There is a recent study that shows that people with ADHD are more likely to move on from a resource before depleting it. Could this behavior not cause a cumulative benefit for a nomadic society in which resource exhaustion is a major potential threat to the group? Perhaps not adaptive for the individual but of benefit overall to the society in which that individual lives.
How do you know that all humans didn’t move on from a resource before depleting it 100,000 years ago? How do you think humans survived so long without agriculture if they just used up everything around them like greedy jerks?
Just because it exist doesn't mean it was selected for, so long as it isn't sufficiently maladaptive nor the behaviour so extremely aberrant the organism could still manage to reproduce despite the mutation.
Exactly. I’ve noticed that the people I encounter in life who show symptoms of ADHD and are confronted with the possibility will dismiss it out of hand whenever the person trends narcissistic. Reminds me of a lesson from M. Scott Peck’s classic Road Less Travelled, as in all of us individual humans are prone to one or more neuroses; in light of this scientific reality, how does one live a moral life? Self examination, course correction, self examination, course correction - this is how we come to understand ourselves, and learn lessons, and hopefully become a better human before our journey ends. No one is perfect, and rationalizing is not science.
As a late diagnosed (34) male I have been looking into ADHD to try and understand it, I did find the hunter-farmer theory more pleasing than that of something being wrong (broken, defective) with me. However, I've recently tried to get into the science behind ADHD and tried to find speakers not talking out of their ass (Peterson, Amen), and I've found Dr. Barkley here an excellent, factual, source, no matter if this video brings me down a peg or two. Now here is the question for anyone reading this: Do you think it is worth it to further study ADHD from evolutionary point of view or from societal mismatch PoV? It bugs me to no end that I don't feel sick or stupid or whatnot, but yet I can't seem to get anywhere with executive functions being all messed up. I do like to think that more individualistic society is the cause for mismatch as there is no one to compensate for my weaknesses as there might have been in the past, with closer and larger extended families and village-societies, but I'm hesitant to point my finger at that direction either. Anyways, I am a mess, and so is this comment. Stimulants help me, but don't provide a peace of mind and acceptance that I so crave.
Going back in to Dr. Barkley’s main contention that ADHD is mostly an impairment in the ability to delay a prepotent response, I do think there is case to be made for it being adaptive. But not in the way that makes your special - more so in the way that ADHD helps the group eat more. As an example, one of the oldest forms of hunting is exhaustion hunting. Humans, because we sweat, are the best mammals at running animals down. For reals, a human will dominate a horse over long distance! In exhaustion hunting you run up to a gazelle or something and the gazelle basically sprints away. The hunter group gives chase. When they get close the animal sprints away agin. Rinse and repeat for hours under the hot sun until the animal is exhausted. It’s tired, but not dead yet. The human with less foresight, the one with adhd, would be more likely to jump on a not yet dead mammal and give it the coup de gras by stabbing it or bashing its head in. Because they don’t consider the consequences- delay that response. Just like that - the whole group eats better because fewer animals get away and risk is more concentrated.
IMO it’s that the human with less foresight is more likely to fuck without considering the consequences, which often include “a child” and “the mother’s parents forcing you to get married”
But that is EXACTLY what ensures survival, and EXACTLY what evolution is all about. Humans' first, second, eleventeenth, and twentyseventyeightmillionth job, as every other creatures' is -- procreate.
When I compare myself with others I do see some benefits. I do programming and my ability to look at things outside how things are usually done has been a boon. The excitement and energy I can showcase on things I like out scale most others I know. Not to poopoo on the negatives because there's soooo many. But yeah it's not black or white. Its hard to know if this is due to adhd or due to me adapting around it.
Something can suck in most cases and still be crucial (sometimes existentially so) in the rare case when it doesn't suck. For example, you may be a less productive programmer in general, but you may also be the one to come up with the idea that cuts the work necessary to complete the project by an order of magnitude (and you'll still get heat for being less productive in the general case lmao). Basically, adaptation can happen at the level of the group, not just the individual, but simplistic models that ignore second-order effects will ignore this.
If all that matters to the genes is that they pass on to as many ppl as possible, and past human civilizations and cultures tolerated various expression levels of these traits, then over the span of history we could see increasing distribution of these genes if overall reproductive rate was higher in those individuals possessing some of these genes. I merely hypothesize this could be the case for those with a subthreshold level of those genes. Then occasionally someone gets a full dose of genes from both sides and manifests the clinical disorder. I wonder if the prevalence level of ADHD gene distribution versus other psychiatric conditions would support that idea.
Or, what we call ADHD may just be a group of traits crucial for the long-term survival of groups. Too little of it, and society stagnates and gets overtaken by other groups or taken out by something unforeseen it can't adapt to. Too much of it, society starves and/or devolves into chaos. What simplistic models can't appreciate is that adaptation can happen at the level of the group, not just the individual. We also tend to forget that just because something is inconvenient or disliked, it can well be existentially important. Basically, your life with ADHD may suck, the people around you may think you suck, and yet it may be you who saves the day the few times your weirdness is needed to come up with an unorthodox solution that the generally productive members of society are too busy to think of.
Consider how societies and cultures tolerate other forms of neurodivergence, such as psychopathy, sociopathy, narcissism, and OCD. In the "sweet spot" of each of those disorders are the people who provide great propulsive force, let's call it, throughout the world; for good, bad, the middle, the unknowable, these folks are juicing the system.
I will now refuse to look at scientific evidence and brand myself as a hunter badass warrior to cope with reality. I'm kidding. Thank you for all of your work!
In every population studied so far, men & women with ADHD have more pregnancies and children. ADHD SHOULD be maladaptive in terms of functioning in order to balance out this reproductive advantage for its prevalence to remain stable. If those with ADHD were also better hunter-gatherers, why isn't it more common?
I would like to know how the children of parents diagnosed with ADHD perceived the behavior of their parents within the framework of a theory like that of Bowlby's attachment for example before these children became adults to discover that they might be ADHD’ers too.
dont care about the past, i know with adhd im much better at things in society now then other people without it, like problemsolving and creativity just as an example. sure i struggle more with other things , but thats because the world isnt made for people like us, they just want every one to be the same
Just because you can't perform well in the general case, or that people think you're not a good enough cog, it doesn't mean you wouldn't be the one who saves the day for everyone when something rare and unforeseen happens, something that may be an existential threat to the group. What simplistic models that don't look beyond the individual forget is that adaptation doesn't only happen at the level of the person, but also at the level of the group. Groups that can't produce (or refuse to tolerate) people with the traits we label ADHD may not be able to progress or even survive in the long run. Groups with just enough such people may underperform in the short run, but can improve suddenly when one of the weirdos discovers or invents something important, or they can survive unexpected crisis situations that the hard-working linear thinkers can't do much with.
One upside of ADHD - and that of all other disorders - is that one is forced to deal with adversity. This teaches you to manage yourself somehow. If it's managed very well, you could outperform others. But above all else, I've found I can become a great model for others Except when non-ADHD people join in on the self-regulating practices I've found, typically they outperform me in terms of productivity
What are you thoughts about ADHD possibly being beneficial and preserved in the gene pool because of the benefits it confers on _the close relatives of people with ADHD, as well as those with SUBclinical ADHD?_ Basing that thought on some articles and papers I read that speculated on why schizophrenia is still around, and still appears in the population at around the same rate as always. Those researchers postulated that it’s usefulness may be found in the significant benefits first degree relatives can experience by being high in schizotypy traits - yet NOT schizophrenic. They often have a lot of the looseness and creative thinking, but without the impairments that full blown schizophrenia has caused in their parent/sibling. So, to sum up: could people with diagnosable, clinically significant ADHD be byproducts of evolution preserving the traits as beneficial in people with SOME ADHD traits, but none of the impairments? Imo that framing would explain why many ADHD traits can appear, in isolation, to be useful or even enviable, as well as why some people with milder ADHD and effective treatment do go on to be highly accomplished - while also saving space for the true impairments that full blown and/or severe ADHD causes. Going back to schizophrenia: while plenty of people are awful and cruel about the disease, anyone who genuinely understands it cannot help but to have compassion for those with it. Anyone who understands schizophrenia doesn’t try to hold them to standards that are unreachable for that particular individual. And, people with schizophrenia who’ve found a way to be moderately functional and independent typically do so in large part because they recognize and work within their limitations. Imagine if ADHD impairments were viewed similarly. After all, despite plenty of poor treatment, we don’t typically see people demanding individuals with full blown schizophrenia become creativity dancing monkeys.
I think you're on the right track by looking beyond the individual, but things may be simpler than you suggest (btw genetics is a field under constant misuse and abuse; there are too many moving parts once we're beyond a single gene). Groups benefit from having a few people who may not perform well in the general case (may even be a hindrance to some degree), but who can think outside the box and introduce qualitative improvements every once in a while and, even more important, can save the day during those rare (but potentially existential) crisis situations (only to be forgotten and continue to be criticized, or even bullied, the following day, I may add). Groups without such individuals will either stagnate and get overtaken, or get erased by something unexpected none of the hard-working linear thinkers can pull out a solution from the (nonexistent) chaos of their (completely average) brains. Too many of these people would just leave to chaos and starvation though; there's a reason why we have some but not too many: societies on either of the extremes have long disappeared.
It's a myth that great warriors require enormous discipline, persistence, and focus. What made our ADHD hunter predecessors superior was their ability to employ the unique traits of procrastination and daydreaming as their ultimate weapons during hunts and battles."
There was very little battling among hunter-gatherers. What would they have battled over? They hardly had anything because they couldn’t save food and they had to carry everything they owned from place to place. You think they fought over women? Women and children as property didn’t become a construct until after agriculture, about 12,000 years ago.
Im a hunter gatherer who primarily has catch and release shoe shopping as my main outlet. As a gatherer i can say that ADHD definitely keeps me occupied as long as im gathering what i want to gather.
Sometimes I keep thinking about myself, and I don't know which characteristics of mine are mine or are part of ADHD. I always reflect on what would become of me if it weren't for this part of me.
People who say this seem to misunderstand evolution. Normal genetic variation produces a variety of phenotypes - some adaptive, others maladaptive. The adaptive ones will be selected for and will become more prevalent in the population. Therefore, if ADHD really was adaptive, it would have become the norm among human beings. This is not what we see. ADHD's status as a minority trait shows that, although it crops up fairly often and there would have been plenty of opportunities for natural selection to boost its survival rate, that has not happened. It simply has not been selected for.
Wouldn't it be considered a variety of normal? Like having red hair, albinism etc? Or *just* a neurodevelopmental disorder, some form of retardation during pregnancy?
@@Varenyam86 I see ADHD as part of the normal human variation (i.e., neurodiversity). Some people have exceptionally strong attentional control, others exceptionally weak. I'm just pointing out that there is no reason to believe that ADHD was *selected for* by natural selection. Lots of behaviours or traits can be beneficial in certain contexts, but that doesn't mean they have been selected for.
Hi Dr. Barkley. I really enjoyed both your videos on this topic. On the subject of Acquired forms of ADHD in adults, such as from injury or exposure: I have had some lingering questions here and was curious to know from your experience if there is research that might provide some insight... For my question, I'm imagining those who might have some dimension or spectrum of ADHD traits, but for the greater part of their life do not ever recognized these as an impairment, and thus a disorder. Understanding already from your videos & lectures that factors such as environment or nutrition (Omega 3s, etc) cannot be shown to be part of the etiology of ADHD in a structural sense. Even though there are possible deficits or stressors in these factors that can contribute to stifling attention & executive functioning. I'm thinking of more superficial circumstances, like a gastrointestinal disorder that might yield malabsorption of nutrients, or stress-response chronic hyperarousal, burnout, or sleep apnea, or even an autoimmune disorder, which all can cause impairments in executive function. For those with a fringe of ADHD traits, could these circumstances "push you over the line" into a state of impairment / disorder? Especially if they are chronic? Recognizing that the neurological structure has always had a degree of deficiency throughout life (perhaps not acquired ADHD, but exacerbated later in life). Beyond this, into the realm of injury: I'm curious about the various causes of neuroinflammation in the brain, including hyperarousal, the compromising of the blood-brain barrier, or even so-called "brain fog", but also the very serious neuroinflammation from Covid or post-covid-syndrome. Some of these conditions can be very serious, chronic, and lead to neurodegenerative diseases. These may not be from external toxins or from an injury event, but certainly degrade the function of brain tissue. So I'm interested in your insights here, or what there might be from current or previous research. Would you consider some of these circumstances to be an "injury" to where ADHD is acquired? Or would that distinction be reserved only for the more pronounced & progressed state of these conditions, such as a disease, for example? And otherwise be another "pushed over the line" situation? I know this is a complex subject that might not be easily parsed out! Thanks again for a very insightful lecture!
Credit to Hartman for the valiant attempt. However, there is NO way that I would have been a successful HG any more than a farmer. Yet, ADHD, HAS a phenotype.
My guess as to how ADHD would be adaptive in terms of sexual collection is the lack of impulse control. Having sex earlier in life and more often would definitely lead to the production of children, especially since throughout most societies in history that first pregnancy would likely lead to a forced marriage.
To the brain injury argument: imagine a child who loses their sight at a young age. Their nervous system might adapt and they might hear better. This child does not need any genetic influence that might usually explain this. I hunch that every damage to the body may be adapted by the nervous system in good or bad.
I have an answer (also based on my family history... both recent and historically)... we get around, we're impulsive, we wander and travel and think 'why not?!' in the moment. Of course we were going to be prolific in our progeny.
@DrBarkley, you may not see this question but hopefully you will. If someone has an Aquired Postnatal Injury, like childhood lead poisoning or TBI, would that impact inherited genes passed down to future generations? Or if ADHD is polygenetic, is it more likely some of the genetic risks are present, then can become expressed with acquired injury? I just ask because my entire family is dx with ADHD but my dad swears his is result of lead exposure and concussions in childhood…which doesn’t make sense why the rest of us have it.
It’s possible if we understand that given enough genes for ADHD a person could be a mild or borderline case of ADHD and then any damage from poisoning or head trauma, etc. could further worsen those symptoms to move the person further into the clinically diagnosable range. I don’t think the poisoning or trauma affects the genes directly.
hunting and gathering requires planning and prioritisation. If I was to go down the precarious line of genotypes I'd say I'm more frolicking and wandering... perhaps along the way, noticing intriguing things but never quite following it through. So, as much as I've loved and entertained that idea, it's on very shaky ground. I just remembered a post in one of my ADHD support groups. Someone suggested that maybe all neurodiverse people should have their own island, then we'd be happy. I did briefly fantasise about this 'nirvana' but like most 'utopian' ideas, it quickly turns into dystopia. I have ADHD-C and for me neurodiversity is very much an oxymoron term if it doesn't include so called 'neurotypicals' whom I also appreciate greatly. Identity politics is in need of a dose of humanity.
I mentioned Dani from the reality TV show "Naked and Afraid XL" in another comment, where she was the weird one in the group, the one everybody resented for her "frolicking and wondering" (and bullied enough to make her tap out). Ironically, she was also the person who (through the very traits they hated her for) got the different small groups meet, and found the place with the mango trees etc. Just because you're generally less productive than most others, even to a degree they resent you, it doesn't mean you're not a crucial member of the group in the few cases when it truly matters (even if your rare but potentially existentially important contribution would be forgotten virtually immediatly). The point is that adaptation can happen at the level of the group, not just the individual, it doesn't have to look or feel good or acknowledged, and simplistic models like the ones presented here will ignore this.
I think ADHD people can have a higher understanding as the years go by, since an ADHD person is more likely to have real life experiences of a wider range of circumstances because of it's very nature, we will have actually experienced those mistakes that typical people only understand from knowledge.
I feel like a hyper-competant, supersmart individual. I attribute part of my success to ADHD, and some of the less successful aspects I also attribute to ADHD. What I'm hearing is, I should really not attribute any of the success at all to ADHD, its more of an "in spite of" rather then a "because of?" The science isn't necessarily disproven, but rather hasn't been done. What is the corrolation between combat service medals and ADHD. What is the correlation between ADHD and PTSD among combat veterans? Controlling for the downsides of ADHD could also be problematic in the study setup, for instance, what percentage of otherwise deserving veterans have ADHD related bad conduct that makes them less likely to receive praise in terms of a medal for valorous service? Those are the sorts of studies that could answer the question, but since there is no actual theraputic value in knowing if it is true, its hard to imagine anyone wanting to fund that study.
There's a more important aspect though. Even if you suck in the general case (and getting a lot of heat for it), you may still be the one who saves the day when an existential threat hits. Or you may still be the one whose random invention will double production overnight. Simplistic models don't look beyond the individual: "Can ADHD help a person to deal with life?" But adaptation happens not only at the level of the person, it also happens at the level of the group. Groups without just enough people who can think outside the box either stagnate or get taken out by something unexpected that the hard-working linear-thinking type doesn't know how to deal with.
I have ADHD and also a relatively high intelligence. One of the most striking self-observations I've noticed about this is that I can think and problem solve in highly novel and creative ways that no neurotypical I have ever met can even begin to compete with (or often even understand) - it's like my mind exists in a completely different space, the literal definition of 'out of the box' thinking. And surely, that's part of the point. I could confer to any group or society an extraordinary adaptive advantage in the right circumstances. For all my faults and flaws, those who understand what this really means would have no doubt whatsoever how immeasurably valuable ADHD traits could be to the survival and advancement of their wider community and society.
Peculiar thing here I keep noticing is that many people think they're borderline geniuses or possess high IQ. Unfortunately people very often overestimate themselves to be "above average". You very likely have just average IQ, but created a narrative to soothe yourself due to your perceived shortcomings.
Could ADHD be similar to sickle cell anemia where the carrier of one gene has immunity against malaria with few if any blood problems? For example, for autism spectrum disorders there is some evidence that parents of autistic children are more likely to be engineers, mathematicians, musicians or any profession that requires a systematization. Can it be possible that there is a sweet spot where a certain degree of subclinical ADHD might give some advantages, such as creativity/out of box thinking, etc?
Can these genes be dormant and expressed later on in life? I was diagnosed with add - lethargy. I had the internal voice and never had any discipline action, school was hard only because I couldn’t stay awake but I was never hyper active. I was later diagnosed with juvenile epilepsy and brain scarring possibly from years of contact sports, or from constant petite mal seizures. Doctors to this day aren’t sure if I have adhd or epilepsy that’s affecting executive function (acquired ADHD?). EEGs are still abnormal but not life threatening and it seems like self regulation and motivation that I didn’t struggle with as a child, teen, early adulthood is getting more and more difficult as I grow older.
I feel that is a good fit for me, id love to be a farmer....city life and dead end job that rewards me with nothing i value, i need money but i dont care if i ont have it! and on a farm its my land i can do what i want to do whenever, if i cant sleep i can go work on my tractors and no one will know, i live in a terraced house, i have to be quite at night
When it comes to genetics the threshold is pretty low compared with the myths about survival of the fittest. You only need to get to breeding age and reproduce, you don't need to be good at life to do this or extra special, a pass will do. So yeah I'd imagine there would be a lot of 'junk' genes floating about, also if your relatives are carriers but less affected or unaffected they'd pass it on - so no you don't need to be optimal or superhuman or better adapted for a gene to continue to propagate. I would think though that some types of society suit some people more than others - so for example a highly social and extroverted society with high expectations of social aptitude would compound or make life more difficult for say a person who is introverted or has Autism than it might have otherwise been.
Possible variation - could having a minority with ADHD in a hunter gatherer group in dangerous territory be beneficial in terms of spotting danger? On the basis that a someone with wandering attention may be more likely to spot a predatory tiger or attacking human from a different tribe while they’re stealthily sneaking up. Particularly at times when all the others in the group are focusing on listening to what the group’s leader is saying or else concentrating on some task they’re agreed they’re all meant to be doing together. I think your argument against it being a beneficial adaption is the most likely still but the above occurs to me as a possible niche scenario where it could be beneficial. I don’t particularly care either way personally if either turned out to be true, I’m just exploring a possible counter argument as a thought experiment.
Yes, just probably not things that involve attention to detail during tedious work. I think the most important thing you can do is educate yourself on the ways that ADHD can limit someone's ability to perform at work and to be up-front about needing extra support/patience/oversight in those areas. For example, people with ADHD can make for good lawyers with their tendencies towards creative thinking, but a lawyer with ADHD would probably require an administrator and a paralegal on their team.
@annaharris2870 YOU are not your ADHD. So it doesn't matter whether ADHD symptoms are useful or not - you are so much more than ADHD, or any other condition that causes issues in your life. There's no reason to take this video so personally.
The fact people with these traits exist is indirect proof that groups that didn't have them couldn't stay around. Which makes perfect sense once you think about it. It's usually not the average hard worker who figures out better ways to do things, or who can think outside the box to save the day when a crisis hits. Being useless most of the time but making a huge improvement every once in a while, or being crucial in the rare case when the group's survival depends on it? That sounds quite important (but no, it won't get you recognition, not usually -- see my comment elsewhere here about Dani from "Naked and Afraid XL", who was crucial for the group's success and yet she got bullied till she tapped out for not being "generally productive").
wiki: Genetic variants (such as the DRD4 7R allele, as well as others on DRD4 and DRD2) conferring susceptibility to ADHD are very frequent-implying that the trait had provided selective advantage in the past.[8] However, "it is unlikely that the observed bias towards nonsynonymous amino-acid changes has been achieved only by positive selection favoring the DRD4 7R allele because the bias can be found not only in VNTR motifs of the DRD4 7R allele but also in those of the other alleles", observed by more recent research-the DRD4 7R allele had no evidence for recent positive selection.[9] Furthermore, a recent 2020 study found that ADHD allele frequency has been decreasing for up to 35,000 years, indicating negative selection.[10] These conclusions, however, are still compatible with the theory: "Overall, our results are compatible with the mismatch theory for ADHD but suggest a much older time frame for the evolution of ADHD-associated alleles compared to previous hypotheses."
A theory I'm more likely to believe is that ADHDers are guards or emergency workers. I feel like I would be excellent at both, because my brain is always scanning an wandering, and if I hear an unusual noise or smell an odd scent, or see a silhouette, my brain snaps into hyperfocus. I also excel in emergency situations, where I feel time freezing, and acquire almost superhuman focus and speed. An example is when I ran down from the second floor to put out a fire on the stove (that somebody else had left food to simmer on). When I was done putting it out, the people sitting in a room adjacent to the kitchen had just begun smelling "something funny".
sorry, but I really feel that there is something in those first two hypothesis - I do not hunt because of values I believe - but for me waiting in ambush for animal is one of few things that make my mind completely clear - I would use camera if I have more talent - this is strange because nature does not provide as much stimulation as modern environment - but there is this expectation of immediate reward - and I think this is why it works - this lowered number of stimuli equals lowering number of distractions - strange - in rich modern env. goals are more complex so it is harder to focus on certains parts of them - as you don't have clear goals you need additional stimulation this stimulation move you even more from any goal, they became distractions - this works this way - it would be nice to check well being of unmedicated (medication helps ofc) of people with ADHD leaving in cities and in rural areas
If eating or rather overeating sugar is an adaptive trait historically, and people with ADHD are more likely to over-eat or consume food compulsively according to your research, then won’t it be an adaptive trait by the transitive property?
Extremely adaptive to all sorts of sutuations, love archery and hunting, excel at whatever I put my attention to in a very short time. But I'm just a girl, so whatever.
I guess the version of this myth that I heard was not that ADHD was ever an advantage, but that it wasnt so deleterious in the preindustrial age because there was less...hm. Regimentation? In daily life. Or there are some cultures where punctuality is not so highly rated, for example. Although, I can see ADHD being more problematic at a time when there were no technological tools to make up for the lack of an internal clock, for instance. So I guess even that is probably not so significant.
I think it's quite easy to imagine that in earlier era's having ADHD would not be much of a hindrance to natural selection. If I'm a nomad or explorer I need only be motivated to find my next meal and see what's over the horizon. I do not need to plan my month, or my week, or really even my day. The demand on my brain for executive function would be very low compared to a modern office worker. Further, if I'm a male I may be doing near zero family planning. I'm quite happy to mate with whomever comes along and don't care if I've provided future comforts for my progeny, most of whom are going to die in childhood. My odds of living to being 30 years old are low. Sure, all of that is just a case that supports ADHD surviving evolution, but it's not a total stretch to see how an impulsive, short sighted, hyperfocusing creative problem solving brain might thrive into breeding age in certain situations.
Maybe its a adaption to some natural drugs(ephedra) that now aren't consumed anymore. Maybe in some genes at least, would explain why the medication works in most of the time.
Ha! The others should be grateful! We adapted in the moment to tigers and wild dogs, protecting the ones hunked down in the cave. Hey, we probably protected the farmers, too, so they could keep farming! 🤔👍
Great topic! I’ve have, for the longest time, vehemently opposed the Neurodiversity point of view, due to its, in my opinion, since the consequences of this socially constructed propaganda, works counterproductive and actually is both discriminatory and harmful, as it promotes a ‘no treatment needed here’. This is so damaging since the proponents of Neurodiversity completely disregard the - somatic - dangers across the lifespan, of getting no medicinal treatment. As you of all of all people know, the ‘comorbidity’ viewpoint of the totality of ADHD symptomatology. It is no coincidence that 80%+ suffers from a sleep disorder (which in my theory is actually due to a Circadian Rhythm Disruption Disorder), and that 40-70% of persons with Autism also meet the clinical criteria for ADHD as well. “This is not by choice … this IS this disorder” as you said long ago 🥸 Furthermore, I call this need for ‘just a different way of thinking’ as the prevailing narrative, as yet another societal symptom- narcissism… People (parents and persons themselves) can use ADHD as a way to differentiate themselves from others, and to make them feel special and significant, while giving the ‘free-pass’ to act out. As you’ve taught us “persons with ADHD do not need fewer rules or demands, than any other, but they need them closer in time, than others!” BTW: Love your ‘Jimmy Buffet’ outfit - good to see that life (and yours) are treating you as you so certainly deserve! Be well /Peter
Damn, that’s some cold, hard science. Is there not some utility in allowing some people to believe they’re special or different for a culturally adaptive reason? I personally can’t do that, I’ve always believed I was disabled and somehow inferior to others, even before I knew about my autism and adhd in my late 20s. Some people though, seem to really struggle with it and cling to the idea of neurodiversity. I kind of wish I could believe a better story about myself, even if it isn’t 100% scientifically sound…
i like my adhd personally. sure i struggle with things that "normal" people dont. half of that is cause the world is built for factory workers and pencel pushers. even in the field of arts, they try using the same methods, same with food. i love to cook and i can just think about ingredients and know what its all gonna taste like when im all done, so this helps a lot. I also do some abstract art and im really good at comming up with lots of solutions to a problem and then looking at the pros and cons of them all in a very short ammount of time. lots of people with autism can be verrryyy good at somehting spacific like an instrument that would make them world famous or perhaps cooking or coding. we live in a world were everything that is different is a disorder and a disability because the world isnt made for us. now sure some peole with autism or adhd or something have it so bad that any potential benifit is outwieghed by the negitives, and that does suck ofc. but point is, if you feel like the way your brain is can help you and make you achive things better then others, then its not a disabillity for you and instead a unique ability, no matter what others say.
@@kirill2525 Actually, it wouldn't even matter if it was some kind of absolute truth that ADHDers are just bad at everything and have no strengths, because the only thing that matters is what's useful to you. And I'd bet that for most people it's more useful to believe they have strengths and are worthy, and that they can succeed. Because we have to live with our ADHD one way or another. For people like Dr. Barkley it's just an interesting subject to study, and it shows in the way he talks about it.
Ofc there is some utility in believing that. Of anything just to lessen RSD. I think it's what burdens us the most, is the lack of knowledge, open/transparent communication, acceptance from our society and as a result: also from ourselves. I've been newly diagnosed since last April. Before that I felt like an immense failure for my messy house for instance, for skinpicking, feeling things so deeply, going against the current etc. I never wish to be someone else nor to fit in, but did wish to love myself better, be more 'get together' and be accepted by partners. After the diagnosis I felt relief. My new mantra is: "it's not me ("a bad person/failure") it's just my ADHD". Not as an excuse but as a way to be kind to myself. It helps tremendously with removing judgement/guilt/anxiety for not being able to be "perfect" (though I never wanted to, apparently I set high standards for myself). Now I compare myself way less to others to measure my 'success'. Being neurodivergent is in that regard, very freeing. Not clinging to that term, but feels like I finally understand myself and give myself permission to not be perfect. Doesn't mean I don't feel handicapped by having ADHD (and a lot of comorbidities) cause I do.. but sometimes understanding or a feel of beloning/knowing it has some meaning, changes your worldview radically.
well idk if i can totally agree with that, you cant make an argument for some one being a parapalegic and saying they ahre happy with that and it ofers advantages, i mean other then probably pitty or government money lol. adhd does actually have some very usefull points. its like the difference between religion and spirituality. you can say religion offers this and that and is good for morality and heven but in reality its just a brainwashing system of controll forced onto people at a yong age or on individuals that want an excuse. spiritualtiyy however teaches you that you have no limits and the world is what you make it but you have to take responsibility for yourself and work on yourself. @@JoHouse533
@@Varenyam86 Not sure if you were responding to me, but I totally agree. When I was diagnosed with depression some years ago it gave me a way to not identify as much with those feelings and behaviors anymore, and use that label to define a more positive self image separate from the depression. Externalizing the bad things makes mental space to identify more with the good things. With ADHD I feel it's the same - acknowledging the difficulties due to ADHD can be liberating and remove unhelpful and unnessessary feelings of guilt and shame. Then it becomes easier to acknowledge your strengths as well, and create a new narrative based on those.
6:22 sounds like the best hunters had some organization skills instead of being thrill seekers and obsessive problem solvers. I guess there can be many different ways to be a successful hunter. But as a manager you must be reasonable and be able to let go.
How does this explain the hyper focus or specialities of ADHD and autism? It seems one deficit in NT functioning is augmented in another? Given homosexuality was thought as a deficit for so long until someone who was made an articulate argument why it wasn't a psychological disorder. I personally know those who are considered rather successful who have been diagnosed with ADHD and/or autistic traits. Even myself being diagnosed as an adult had 18+ credit semesters of hardcore college science courses and was able to get straight As which was attributed and perhaps dismissed due to my ADD hyper focus. I'd also argue friends I know who have savant-like knowledge of celebrities or classical music seem to possess the skills required for medical recall but don't seem to enjoy the subject matter of science. It just seems we are artificially valuing certain traits in modern society which must coincide with difficult, renowned, esteemed subject matter because being able to recall the lyrics to an old song or the name of a piece from 1745 isn't going to save anyone's life. And for those reasons these people are also not the ones you'll obtain in your studies or even know they possess such skills that would translate very well into other professions that would better highlight these discrepencies.
Ive noticed that its always "we were hunters, we were warriors, we were... something cool or badass". Its always somethinh so narcissistically salient, much like the whole past life nonsense. Has anyone ever noticed that no one was ever a peasants in a past life? Or a toilet cleaner or a slave?
If ADHD is rare in Japan, isn't that because, according to a video I saw that contrasted Japanese parenting with American parenting, Japanese moms spend on average 2 hours away from their babies per week, whereas American moms spend on average 24 hours away from their babies per week (and that's probably not even counting the time babies are isolated in a crib in a seperate room instead of being worn skin-on-skin on the moms chest in a sling). The Wikipedia page on attachment styles says tge percentage if Japanese people with an avoidant attachment style was like less than 1%, whereas for Americans it's way higher than 1%.
it’s a waterfall in the Pacific Northwest shot with a slow shutter speed by my close friend, Tom Hammeke. And the other, larger one is a print of art from Charleston, SC by my deceased friend, John Carroll Doyle. thanks for asking.
My apologies, I meant the background picture on your computer screen in the beginning - but I do believe I was mistaken and it might be Catalina Island@@russellbarkleyphd2023
if ADHD increase probability of unwanted pregnency in modern times (there are some proofs it is two times higher) then it could be also the case in past times - but ADHD genes do not dominate in population as they lowers fitness to environment because they affect executive functions
It's simpler than that. Groups that had no weirdos who thought outside the box didn't progress and got overtook, or couldn't survive some random crises and got erased.
I am not criticising your fundamental analysis and conclusions. Why using Bell curves as an argument? Bell curves are models. They practically never occur in the real world. Yes "distorted" bell curves often occur, and this observation led to this model. But a perfectly drawn bell curve with both sides equally distributed and formed is mostly wrong and misleading. Nothing is distributed "normally", other then a few exceptions. And even those are rarely that on closer inspection. What happens a lot unfortunately is that we look at populations, assume "normal distribution" and then start filling in numbers based on some facts. Calling this distribution "normal" and "standard" has led to this enormous misunderstanding.
isn't there some evidence that adhd is linked with sexual promiscuity, not a doctor but that seems like a much cleaner explanation then us being some warrior class
i have adhd, and i wont put my dick into anyone i dont have feelings for cause thats just gross and a total missuce of the act itself wich should be about bonding with another as close as you posibly can. most people dont have adhd and they fust fuck because it feels good.
Not that I have seen unless it was initiated due to serious complications in delivery that necessitated doing one but the research just isn’t that precise.
Interesting question. I do know that babies born via c-section have different microbiomes, are prone to gut issues. Since there is some research done (gut is considered "second brain") or correlation on poor diet/gut issues and more severe symptoms of ADHD, it wouldn't surprise me. Not as causation but maybe correlation? Am curious if there would be some reliable studies researching the effect of the birthing process (induced vs natural, with/without epidural, vaginal vs c-section) and ADHD. (Mention/tag me if you know of some 🙏🏻).
If you'll forgive a colloquial analogy, isn't it reasonable for a person with sickle-cell anemia to take some consolation in the fact that they are resistant to malaria? We can acknowledge both the fact that an accumulation of these traits leads to problems and the fact that taken individually they may have some benefit. Novelty seeking, exploration preference, and impulsiveness may have advantages as well as disadvantages to individuals and groups, but there can be too much of a "good" thing. But that shouldn't preclude people finding satisfaction in the "good" parts of their personalities. In your video about neurodiversity, you say that people within a few standard deviations of the norm might reasonably be called "gregarious" or "effervescent", but people who are suffering should be considered impaired by the disorder. I get that some arguments on neurodiversity have gone too far, but is it really hurting anyone to acknowledge diagnosed ADHD people might be gregarious or talented in some way that coincides with their inpairment?
No it’s not rhetorical. Didn’t mean to imply that. self regulation or it’s underlying executive functioning is substantially genetically influenced as seen in its high heritability and thus is a poly genetic trait the lower tail of the distribution of which is ADHD in my view.
As someone who took up hunting as an adult, I can tell you ADHD is in no way helpful, at least for hunting ungulates. Probably the most important skills are patience and minimizing your movement. Sitting in a blind or treestand all day requires a lot of patience and sustained focus, as do stalking and still-hunting.
True for the modern Hunter with a long range firearm for sure But would that apply to an Ancient Hunter? Or from middle History, a battlefield scenario where enivroned from all angle attacks (not exactly a Hunt per se) but maybe another factor to consider
1:15 sorry but isn't evolution entirely random, traits pop up and just live on as long as the adhd individual gets to reproduce, so it may not be a particularly good survival trait but instead just randomly appear among the population, and since it didn't affect much of their survival and reproduction, this evolutionary trait gets to remain in the gene pool and pass on to our current generation?
@@tibs7095 that's interesting, we've got to take account of shift in not just cultural expectation but the personality and characteristics of individuals required in society of different eras to work, obviously since Newton, more and more of the type of personality that breeds physicists arose, as that was most needed, and perhaps ADHD has always been there, just that back when it was recognised as a thing in people, they were understood as being absent minded for a sec and so when the culture shifts into favouring consistency and constant throughput from individuals, do we recognise the effects of traits such as ADHD among people
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Scientists aren't typically renowned for being good communicators. I think you, Dr. Barkley, are an excellent communicator: clear and concise with a bit of humour even during the technical stuff. I think there is huge value in these videos and very much appreciate them, thank you!!
Yes! Never condescending, but still playful and effective at conveying the info without making me fall asleep.
Thank you!
@@russellbarkleyphd2023 You've single handedly done more for my understanding of my ADHD than any other human, the least I can do is pay a compliment on TH-cam, haha. So deeply appreciate your work, truly. My ADHD is on the much more severe side, and every little bit of knowledge helps me better manage the condition. Sure would be more manageable if I could find some Teva factory Adderall, but that's luck of the draw for now!
Speaking of which, would you consider speaking on the differences that can be found in medications from different sources? I just don't understand how different manufacturers can change Adderall formulation so wildly and still call them Adderall, especially since they don't work even half as well as other brands of Adderall. If the drug is so regulated due to its potential for misuse, how is tampering with it going to help the folks who need it most? I just don't get it.
Hope you're staying cool and safe!
I don't generally feel like I'm smart/creative/outside the box because of ADHD. I feel like I'm those things in spite of it. I think if you could magically switch it off, that's when you'd see any real giftedness I might have. The only time I have ever felt like ADHD gives me an advantage is when working with a team on some kind of urgent problem. Setbacks and mistakes, out of the blue direction changes, unexpected results (chaos and failure) don't tend to demoralize me and I'm able to pivot towards the next set of possibilities without getting emotionally hung up on disappointment or trying to figure out the whys. That's not necessarily a neurological advantage. That's just desensitization due to a life filled with chaos and failure. As far as hunting or warfare go, I've only noticed that my system is somewhat like opportunistic hunting strategies in animals. I am pretty happy to stay in one spot conserving energy until spotting the target, then it's usually a short, intense pusuit. I'm also easily prompted to break off one 'chase' that isn't looking optimal for one that looks better. So, multiple 'prey' are able to satisfy the impulse. Aside from that, I don't posess any of the skills that make for a successful hunter, and especially not a good soldier.
The idea that ADHD is an adaption that makes me special is a fun and entertaining idea. But it's not an idea that helps me, except to perhaps feel better about myself. But if that's just based on a false assumption, does it really help me? I wasn't diagnosed until last week at the age of 49. Most of my life I was labeled a "creative genius" and I was told this was why I did badly in grade school. I'm sure people told me this to make me feel better about myself, but it didn't work. I grew up feeling like a failure of a human being that people felt compelled to make up niceties about so they didn't hurt my feelings. When I found out I had ADHD and I had "impairment" and "dysregulation" everythign made so much more sense. I could never do anything about being a "creative genius" but I can do something about ADHD. So many things. Also I don't feel like a failure of a human being anymore. As a creative genius most days I felt like an imposter, as an ADHDer I feel like my authentic self. I don't need a story to make myself feel better. I am different, but I am no better or worse than any other person. I am just me.
The last part of that (I am no better or worse than anyone else); how do you do that? I really believe people without adhd or other neurodevelopmental disorders are better than me. They’re more ‘complete’ or like they are full people, with brains that fully developed. I have a lot of envy towards the complete people. I feel embarrassed just for existing as someone with a disorder. I can’t stop viewing the world through a hierarchical lens, with myself near the bottom
@@joelwilliams3115See we are generally worse at doing things..in this society! Human society hasn't always been about memorisation, organisation and doing onerous tasks.
Our hyperfocus, low tolerance at doing things the same way, etc could have proven an amazing asset to a society that craved innovation.
To make a very dumbed down the explanation for it, everyone dragged stuff until one person got really bored with that and made the wheel.
Listen I don’t know you but just based on your comment it really still sounds as if you think of yourself as lesser. You aren’t any worse than anyone you’re just different. Same as myself. We all have a variety of strengths and weaknesses and adhd just changes those.
Well put
@@tylerdavis3 thanks. Rejection sensitivity doesn't go away over night. But I am better at observing it from a distance now and understanding what's going on.
Thank you Dr. Barkley, just hearing this to remind me that I'm not a terrible person, but I have a neuro- developmental issue I am constantly battling, makes me feel less like a piece of crap/failure, even though I'm often exhausted from trying with everything I have to just be "normal" and function better. Your words are literally soothing. I do NOT use ADHD as an excuse, I try to act like I don't have it. It is an explanation though, which is just encouraging enough to keep going. (I am also on medication, which is a critical tool used for not making everyone around me so mad, inadvertently, and also staying alive while doing stuff like driving.) Your educated and professional background gives validity to this disorder. I do think personally I would thrive better in an uncivilized society, even back in the wild west, or even on a farm. Nature is 100x better to be surrounded by than desks with paperwork where you have to remember tons of details, not make any extra movements or noises, and fake being ok with that artificial environment. Physical work is exceedingly better than the other options, for my brain gets tired way faster than my body on any given day.
Thank you for all the work that you have done for the ADHD community
I thought the adaptation theory was that having some adhd in a population or tribe would lead to some people being awake all night protecting the tribe from some dangers and resulting in the traits being passed along better than tribes without. Assuming adhd individuals are more likely to be night owls. ADHD individuals would likely have had an easier time in less technologically advanced societies as physical activity, social activity, and cognitive demand were more closely intertwined, keeping adhd people more focused
I'm so grateful that you don't dumb down your presentations. That's the reason I find your content so incredibly valuable. Thank you.
I didn't know you had a TH-cam channel, Dr Barkley! Definitely subscribing. Your lectures from 10-15 years ago were some of the first educational content about ADHD (and indeed mental health in general) that I ever came across. Thank you for working so hard on this subject for so long and for trying to help people understand the disorder.
Maybe you can try your hand at acting when the world wakes up and demands a Jimmy Buffett biopic.
I am able to see some of the benefits in my life from ADHD, the problem is that other people fail to understand the lack of control over those benefits. I love how i am a "jack of all trades" but i wish that was a choice instead of a side effect.
Ah yes.
I bet you expected this to be a positive, uplifting episode. So did I.
I expected it to be science.
@@AmandaJuneHagarty It's the kind of science that works with simplistic models that leave out second-order effects. Adaptation can happen at the level of the group, not just the individual: what inconveniences you and others around you in the short run may be crucial for the survival of the group in the long run.
Nah, I didn’t. There are a raft of non adaptive or helpful conditions that persist in the population. This is one of them
I found it uplifting.
The “it’s a gift” narrative does real harm by perpetuating the stigma that it’s not a “real” disability/you don’t need help/it’s over diagnosed/blah blah. It makes the most extreme expressions of that stigma more plausible by attacking if it’s a disorder at all (even if its “positive” on the surface.)
So I find science refuting that narrative super uplifting and comforting. It’s a disorder for which we need, and can get, help. The help exists, and it is real, and it really does help. 10/10.
I’m so glad you are going over this. My last therapist was having me read the happiness trap book which stems from this hunter idea.
Love your content, sir! When I bring up something I saw here to my therapist, I refer to you as “our guy, Russell!” No disrespect at all, Dr Barkley!! My therapist has ADHD and is rocking it taking care of others! She was one of the therapists recommended by my PCP and here I am at 55, now diagnosed! Your content is so informing and VERY MUCH APPRECIATED by us neuro-divergents out here! Much love!!! ❤
For me, though there is a slight difference, it feels too much like the narrative of "ADHD is a superpower." The focus of these always felt too external and are usually talking about creativity or hyper focus.
Sure it's a "superpower" when others can benefit from the creativity or fast and detailed work, but what about when you hyper focus on the "wrong" thing, forget to eat or drink for hours, and have missed other commitments? Is it a "superpower" for the person with ADHD, who in this situation, ends up with unmet needs and guilt/shame about letting others down?
Maybe my ADHD does make me better at some things than others, or maybe those are strengths I would have had without the ADHD as well. But even if it was all the ADHD, I would give those up in a heartbeat if it meant basic functioning wouldn't be so hard. That's the part I feel like these positive spins don't account for.
It also feels like there's often an unspoken message in these, attributing all your positive traits to your "ADHD superpower," but at the same time saying "oh don't let your ADHD define you, you should just overcome your challenges. "
My ADHD is disabling, it is a disability. When I am struggling with basic care tasks and exhausted from simply existing, someone telling me it's a "superpower" is a slap in the face.
I won't speak for everyone with ADHD, because I think each person should be able to define their experience how they want. That said, I do still dislike people within the community using these definitions, even if it's true to them, because it helps perpetuate ableism against those with more disabling ADHD.
Something can be important for society while being a hindrance to the individual and an annoyance to even society itself almost all of the time.
You may be almost always underperforming, being criticized for not being efficient and hyper focusing on the wrong things, bullied for not pulling your weight, you or someone else like may also be the one who, due to the very traits that make life for you and those around you a pain most of the time, end up solving something crucial, maybe even existential, for the group (only to be forgotten the next moment, and criticized all the same the next day).
In other words, adaptation can happen at the level of the group, not just the individual: groups without enough people with these traits faded away or just got erased by something unexpected none of the hard workers colud find a solution for, and groups with too many starved to death because there were not enough hard workers.
This makes alot of sense to me, thank you for this lecture.
Nobody claims that having low IQ is some kind of adaptation, there are not very many benefits to low IQ but there are still people with low IQ. People with ADHD are just on the lower end of the distribution on the bell curve of executive funtioning like people with low IQ are on the lower end of the distribution of certain traits of intelligence.
There sure are some benefits to having ADHD there just aren't very many.
Actually in certain circumstances, it probably is adaptive to have lower IQ. In modern societies, for example, there is a slightly negative relationship between IQ and number of children, so evolutionarily lower IQ actually seems to be selected for in the current environment. Also in the ancestral landscape, higher IQ probably meant larger brain and a greater chance of dying during child birth and higher caloric needs all else equal which could increase starvation risk. So basically, it's complicated, and actually yes it is possible for lower scores in apparently universally useful traits like intelligence to be adaptive.
The benefits may be mostly at the level of the group, not the individual, and only on a longer timescale: rare but huge jumps of productivity through that one great invention by the dude whom everyone criticized for just daydreaming all day or wasting time on useless crap, discoveries of new resources by someone who dared to venture out farther than others instead of working on the potato field, or when an unexpected threat hits and there's a need for a quick and unorthodox solution to save the group. Simplistic models don't consider such tail events.
As a young psychologist with adhd myself, i often have parents ask me about this.
I find it easy to steer the conversation in a direction the parents' worries and concerns about the diagnostic label of 'ADHD.' It usually allows me to steer them back to the present moment and how their childrens' impairments are all that matters today.
But most parents who have 1 child go on to have another child (or even 3 or more!), so why not tell them how to prevent ADHD in any future kids they may have?
@@moondog7694 It is largely genetic, you cannot 'prevent' it - sure, don't drink, do drugs, or cause any other prenatal injury to the baby.. but that won't prevent it if it's genetic. So it's a bit pointless.
I think this might be the first time I've heard anyone talk about "acquired ADHD" and I just found myself nodding through the whole section.
I had difficulties as a child, but not to a level that I was impaired in any noticeable way.
I was premature and my mother was an addict, so not the best start, but I i had my first brain injury with I nearly when I was 11. The impairment and difficulties became immediately noticeable.
In the following following ~17 years, I engaged in numerous high risk activities. Skateboard, parkour, mountain biking and anything I could throw myself at that could risk serious injury/death.
During those years, I had numerous TBI's in the form of pretty severe concussions, then at 28 I suffered a series of strokes.
After which, any issues i previously had were drastically exacerbated.
It took almost ten years of assessments, second opinions and beyond before I i was diagnosed with ASD and comorbid ADHD last year at 37 years old.
Yes, the idea that I'm "special" or somehow retain some residual traits from our ancestors could be a nice self sooth if I was so inclined. But, in reality, it's likely just a series of unfortunate events that just happen to leave me with a specific combination of brain injuries that now present as ADHD turned up to 11.
I think anthropology might have some of the answers. I wouldn't be surprised at all.
ADHD sure doesn't make me feel better adapted for anything? Unless that thing is forgetting to eat because i am so involved in something that i cant even form the thought to pull away. Or once i fizzle out on whatever i am stuck in, i am unable to control the amount of food or alcohol i consume because i am so dopamine starved. It seems like my life is one ongoing boom and bust cycle of sensation seeking that exists totally outside of my ability to consciously intervene. Then the cycle of shame, frustration, regret, that happens afterwards when i notice my behavior. Which leads to more of the previous unhealthy activities and starts the entire cycle over again.
If it is an adaptation i don't want it, and I cant believe i lived like that for 46 years. The drinking and drugs, unhealthy eating and sleeping habits, the unhealthy relationships and risk taking. I am lucky to be alive and even luckier to be in good health and not in jail. I am one of the people who definitely crossed over into conduct disorders and it could have gone much worse. I am lucky.
When people frame ADHD as somehow beneficial it is insulting. As if it is somehow possible to harness it for great things. I can't even harness it for simple things like emptying a dishwasher. So i spend way more time handwashing everything i use immediately because it wont ever get done otherwise. I waste incredible amounts of time on abstract coping mechanisms that i myself dont even understand most of the time. It is tedious beyond my ability to describe.
I am incredibly grateful for a simple small dose of Adderall xr that helps regulate this "wonderful adaptation." And i am so grateful for your work making this information available and easily accessible. If anyone reading this sees the things i describe in their kids or family members please get them assessed. Do not let them live like i did.
Your life may suck, people may blame you for stuff you can't control, and you may be a constant underperformer, but groups without people like you fade into obscurity for lack of progress or due to unforeseen threats that everybody is too busy to plant potatoes or answer emails to find a solution for.
Basically, you may perform somewhat negatively most of the time, but you may be the key to the survival of the group once every few years (only to be forgotten the next day; yup, it's sucks being you).
In other words, adaptation happens at the level of the group as well, not just on the level of the individual. It also doesn't have to be acknowledged: you may be bullied for the kind of person you are, and groups without people like you may still die out.
Thanks a lot for making these videos. World class information about my ADHD for free!
Do you have a video that goes more in depth about changing my environment to compensate for executive dysfunction? How can I build a life with solid guide rails?
You mention charts, posters, clocks. I struggle to apply these tools well.
I've recently taken to having many clipboards in each room to track my cleaning and shopping lists which has been helpful.
Yes, it would be helpful to learn what Dr. Barkley recommends.
In the meantime, I wonder if you have seen the youtube channel “How To ADHD” by Jessica McCabe. I find she has many useful tips for dealing with ADHD in everyday life. One of them matches what you are doing: have the things that you need to do a task readily available to you at the point of performance for that task. And in my case, I have taken that to include To-Do lists as well - similar to how you use them.
There are many other tips, of course. Here are a few that I found particularly helpful for myself:
* Get treated for trauma, there is some likelihood that ADHDers have it. This can be quite disabling, on top of ADHD.
* Find some form of time-management structure that helps. For example, friendly meetings can help (team meetings, customers meetings), so that there are small deliverables relatively often. Avoid meaningless / contentless meetings though.
* “Body doubling” can help me get started on a task, staying on the task or returning to it, and finishing the task. This is someone who is either simply present, or who sits down with my task and simply starts doing it, in a friendly, open and non-preemptive manner, and then I can come in and “help”. And soon I will get immersed in that task and take over. This practice may need to be repeated whenever re-engagement with the task is necessary. (But don’t forget to take breaks too.) This is like borrowing the executive function of that other person, activating my dopamine and my interest in that task.
There are a few ideas in the video on adult ADHD, as well as the one on executive functioning and on time blindness, but I will post more as time permits.
Remember: Cultural anthropolgy is amonsgt the softest of soft sciences. It is (almost) never based on controlled experimentation. The historical record is often incomplete or inaccurate. Few modern cultures exist in isolation from one another.
Which is to say that all we have in the sphere of cultural anthropolgy are theories. The doctor refutes two such theories on reasonable grounds, but this video is explicitly neither a through examination of the history of cultures, nor an attempt to map ADHD traits to suitability within those cultures. Woefully few such studies currently exist.
Which is to say that we may yet demonstrate that ADHD has been more beneficial in previous human cultures, or simply less of an imparement, compared with how well suited it is for modern culture. Equally we may never be able to convincely demonstrate that, but instead theorise on cultural change thay might occur that could lead to ADHD traits being less of an imparement and more of a benefit.
There's a simpler explanation: traits can be somewhat harmful to the individual and the group in the short run and still be crucial for the group's survival in the long run. Kind of like a hedge in finance (when done right, that is): it costs you some money, but it keeps you in business when others go bust in the next crash.
The person who's busy inventing crap (most of which fails) won't be a top producer in the general case, but when something works, they may double production overnight. They also tend to be the people who can come up with solutions against unforeseen threats, thus saving the group from extinction every once in a while.
Second-order effects cannot be ignored: something that isn't adaptation on the level of the individual may well be adaptation on the level of the group.
ADHD may be inconvenient to the person, undesired by their peers, and even mildly detrimental to the entire group in "everyday life" (when things are going fine and as expected), but the simple fact these people are there everywhere suggests societies that lacked or didn't put up with them simply didn't survive.
Groups without such people may have stopped innovating and as such ended up overtaken by others, or they may have lacked the necessary level of craziness to adjust to or deal with unexpected events or changes: threats that are rare enough that we can pretend they never happen, but when they do, they are existential, with the potential to erase the group once every few hundred years or so, and then it's game over, they disappear and become forgotten.
On the other extreme, too many of these kind of people would stop a group from having enough stability to e.g. produce enough food to survive.
A good demonstration for this was the show "Naked and Afraid XL" from 2015: groups of people were dropped off in the wilderness relatively far from each other, with barely any tools to survive on. One woman, Dani Julien, was a bit on the weird side; she tended to wander off alone, exploring, and not really contributing to the regular activities (food gathering, etc). Others in the group didn't take this well; in the end, she got bullied so much that she tapped out.
What those people didn't realize was that the only reason the smaller groups found each other, and the reason they were at that relatively well-supplied location (mango trees, creek with fish, etc) was because Dani had found the other group while she was exploring, and Dani had found the place while she was exploring.
Yes, the menial work done by the others was absolutely necessary, but their entire hospitable situation was the result of the odd one out in their group doing her "weird" and "usless" activities: the very things that they hated her for.
I want to believe you but
“The simple fact that ADHD people are everywhere suggests societies that lacked them did not survive.”
It could also mean the COMPLETE OPPOSITE.
That they could only support that many people with ADHD. (If you understand what I mean)
Maybe a Hunter gatherer group with 100 normal people was the best, a couple of sick or unhealthy (adhd included) people could be supported, but then a group with 10 or more ADHD people was dead.
It could mean both
Cope
Personally, I think the thought is nice to think that there might have been some benefits way back when. And it's nice to know some successful people who had the disorder. Though only if we can use that to motivate us. Does the fact others have succeeded despite the same hardship as you make you more likely to pursue your dreams and goals? If so, that's probably a wonderful thing for someone with a disorder when finding motivation and staying on task is hard.
On the other hand, one should be cautious to not let it get to their head. Don't act like there's nothing wrong with you, because someone else succeeded with your disability. For example, there are sprinters with no legs. People that run on their hands. It's fantastic, but someone without legs shouldn't use that to say they are perfectly normal, when they aren't. Understand your disorder, work with it, put in extra effort that regular people don't have to, and you can succeed with a disorder, but act like theirs nothing wrong, and you're making your condition worse.
Personally, I wouldn't cure my ADHD if I could. It's a part of me. I like me. I'm fine with other people with ADHD being happy with who they are, but they are faced with extra challenges, and they need to understand that to work past them.
The main point is we add’ers learn differently and see the world differently. I have too take a moment when I enter a place that has so many stimulating things but quickly I can catalogue almost everything and my spatial awareness is very good. But if I’m cooped up for too long I brood and day dreaming takes over. Learning I was an extrovert I gain my energy by being around people or animals
I was a late diagnoses, part way through my psych degree about 10 years ago and I had no idea how much of the picture I was missing. Your videos and information have been so helpful in creating a better understanding of my adhd. Thank you so much for the work you do, I recommend it to every parent or fellow adhd person I can. Having this information earlier could only have helped.
god bless thank you sir, I am an ACOA 25 year old who checks all the boxes you speak of. I am so grateful this content is available, I have two bachelor's degrees but nowhere in that $40k was help or information or teaching like this. I will be in class thursday.
Oh my gosh! All those origins for adhd!!! I knew it surely must be rather complex, but that long list is staggering to hear. Wow.
I'm still a bit skeptical about the contents of this particular video, though Dr Barkley's other videos are helping me a lot.
I think that genetics being passed down from generation to generation is conducive to the idea that ADHD is a 'throwback' to the hunter/warrior mind, since one would imagine that it was the hunters and warriors who were most successful in passing on their genes. Being easily distracted when hunting would have saved us from predators; this is genetic selection, I think; not just hunter culture. There certainly isn't enough scientific evidence to support this hunter mind theory but there wasn't any evidence when when Crick & Watson purported that all living things shared DNA and might have common ancestry. As Einstein said, "imagination is more important than knowledge". Sometimes the actual evidence comes after, to support outlandish postulations.
How right you are!!!
Hi Dr Barkley, I certainly agree with your view.
People like to have this simplistic view of adaptation and evolution. In the end it is simply chance, and the affects of many many variables on that particular chance. There isn't always an explicit choosing of 'adaptable' traits, where in if it is 'good/useful' then it continues to survive. How would we argue for other genetic disorders/variations?
You would do so by matching the disorders' manifestations or symptoms against a list of favorable outcomes consistent with the needs and values of the individual culture, I would think.🤔
There is a recent study that shows that people with ADHD are more likely to move on from a resource before depleting it. Could this behavior not cause a cumulative benefit for a nomadic society in which resource exhaustion is a major potential threat to the group? Perhaps not adaptive for the individual but of benefit overall to the society in which that individual lives.
How do you know that all humans didn’t move on from a resource before depleting it 100,000 years ago? How do you think humans survived so long without agriculture if they just used up everything around them like greedy jerks?
Just because it exist doesn't mean it was selected for, so long as it isn't sufficiently maladaptive nor the behaviour so extremely aberrant the organism could still manage to reproduce despite the mutation.
Exactly. I’ve noticed that the people I encounter in life who show symptoms of ADHD and are confronted with the possibility will dismiss it out of hand whenever the person trends narcissistic. Reminds me of a lesson from M. Scott Peck’s classic Road Less Travelled, as in all of us individual humans are prone to one or more neuroses; in light of this scientific reality, how does one live a moral life? Self examination, course correction, self examination, course correction - this is how we come to understand ourselves, and learn lessons, and hopefully become a better human before our journey ends. No one is perfect, and rationalizing is not science.
It's frustrating when an entire comment is deleted! Will wait for part 2 before retyping it out again! My RSD will have to chill.
As a late diagnosed (34) male I have been looking into ADHD to try and understand it, I did find the hunter-farmer theory more pleasing than that of something being wrong (broken, defective) with me. However, I've recently tried to get into the science behind ADHD and tried to find speakers not talking out of their ass (Peterson, Amen), and I've found Dr. Barkley here an excellent, factual, source, no matter if this video brings me down a peg or two. Now here is the question for anyone reading this: Do you think it is worth it to further study ADHD from evolutionary point of view or from societal mismatch PoV? It bugs me to no end that I don't feel sick or stupid or whatnot, but yet I can't seem to get anywhere with executive functions being all messed up. I do like to think that more individualistic society is the cause for mismatch as there is no one to compensate for my weaknesses as there might have been in the past, with closer and larger extended families and village-societies, but I'm hesitant to point my finger at that direction either. Anyways, I am a mess, and so is this comment. Stimulants help me, but don't provide a peace of mind and acceptance that I so crave.
Going back in to Dr. Barkley’s main contention that ADHD is mostly an impairment in the ability to delay a prepotent response, I do think there is case to be made for it being adaptive. But not in the way that makes your special - more so in the way that ADHD helps the group eat more. As an example, one of the oldest forms of hunting is exhaustion hunting. Humans, because we sweat, are the best mammals at running animals down. For reals, a human will dominate a horse over long distance! In exhaustion hunting you run up to a gazelle or something and the gazelle basically sprints away. The hunter group gives chase. When they get close the animal sprints away agin. Rinse and repeat for hours under the hot sun until the animal is exhausted. It’s tired, but not dead yet. The human with less foresight, the one with adhd, would be more likely to jump on a not yet dead mammal and give it the coup de gras by stabbing it or bashing its head in. Because they don’t consider the consequences- delay that response. Just like that - the whole group eats better because fewer animals get away and risk is more concentrated.
IMO it’s that the human with less foresight is more likely to fuck without considering the consequences, which often include “a child” and “the mother’s parents forcing you to get married”
But that is EXACTLY what ensures survival, and EXACTLY what evolution is all about. Humans' first, second, eleventeenth, and twentyseventyeightmillionth job, as every other creatures' is -- procreate.
Glad you got to have some fun, definitely well deserved
When I compare myself with others I do see some benefits. I do programming and my ability to look at things outside how things are usually done has been a boon.
The excitement and energy I can showcase on things I like out scale most others I know. Not to poopoo on the negatives because there's soooo many. But yeah it's not black or white.
Its hard to know if this is due to adhd or due to me adapting around it.
Something can suck in most cases and still be crucial (sometimes existentially so) in the rare case when it doesn't suck.
For example, you may be a less productive programmer in general, but you may also be the one to come up with the idea that cuts the work necessary to complete the project by an order of magnitude (and you'll still get heat for being less productive in the general case lmao).
Basically, adaptation can happen at the level of the group, not just the individual, but simplistic models that ignore second-order effects will ignore this.
If all that matters to the genes is that they pass on to as many ppl as possible, and past human civilizations and cultures tolerated various expression levels of these traits, then over the span of history we could see increasing distribution of these genes if overall reproductive rate was higher in those individuals possessing some of these genes. I merely hypothesize this could be the case for those with a subthreshold level of those genes.
Then occasionally someone gets a full dose of genes from both sides and manifests the clinical disorder.
I wonder if the prevalence level of ADHD gene distribution versus other psychiatric conditions would support that idea.
Or, what we call ADHD may just be a group of traits crucial for the long-term survival of groups. Too little of it, and society stagnates and gets overtaken by other groups or taken out by something unforeseen it can't adapt to. Too much of it, society starves and/or devolves into chaos.
What simplistic models can't appreciate is that adaptation can happen at the level of the group, not just the individual.
We also tend to forget that just because something is inconvenient or disliked, it can well be existentially important. Basically, your life with ADHD may suck, the people around you may think you suck, and yet it may be you who saves the day the few times your weirdness is needed to come up with an unorthodox solution that the generally productive members of society are too busy to think of.
Consider how societies and cultures tolerate other forms of neurodivergence, such as psychopathy, sociopathy, narcissism, and OCD. In the "sweet spot" of each of those disorders are the people who provide great propulsive force, let's call it, throughout the world; for good, bad, the middle, the unknowable, these folks are juicing the system.
I will now refuse to look at scientific evidence and brand myself as a hunter badass warrior to cope with reality.
I'm kidding. Thank you for all of your work!
In every population studied so far, men & women with ADHD have more pregnancies and children. ADHD SHOULD be maladaptive in terms of functioning in order to balance out this reproductive advantage for its prevalence to remain stable. If those with ADHD were also better hunter-gatherers, why isn't it more common?
I would like to know how the children of parents diagnosed with ADHD perceived the behavior of their parents within the framework of a theory like that of Bowlby's attachment for example before these children became adults to discover that they might be ADHD’ers too.
Haven’t seen any studies on this. Interesting idea.
dont care about the past, i know with adhd im much better at things in society now then other people without it, like problemsolving and creativity just as an example. sure i struggle more with other things , but thats because the world isnt made for people like us, they just want every one to be the same
Just because you can't perform well in the general case, or that people think you're not a good enough cog, it doesn't mean you wouldn't be the one who saves the day for everyone when something rare and unforeseen happens, something that may be an existential threat to the group.
What simplistic models that don't look beyond the individual forget is that adaptation doesn't only happen at the level of the person, but also at the level of the group. Groups that can't produce (or refuse to tolerate) people with the traits we label ADHD may not be able to progress or even survive in the long run. Groups with just enough such people may underperform in the short run, but can improve suddenly when one of the weirdos discovers or invents something important, or they can survive unexpected crisis situations that the hard-working linear thinkers can't do much with.
One upside of ADHD - and that of all other disorders - is that one is forced to deal with adversity. This teaches you to manage yourself somehow. If it's managed very well, you could outperform others. But above all else, I've found I can become a great model for others
Except when non-ADHD people join in on the self-regulating practices I've found, typically they outperform me in terms of productivity
What are you thoughts about ADHD possibly being beneficial and preserved in the gene pool because of the benefits it confers on _the close relatives of people with ADHD, as well as those with SUBclinical ADHD?_
Basing that thought on some articles and papers I read that speculated on why schizophrenia is still around, and still appears in the population at around the same rate as always. Those researchers postulated that it’s usefulness may be found in the significant benefits first degree relatives can experience by being high in schizotypy traits - yet NOT schizophrenic. They often have a lot of the looseness and creative thinking, but without the impairments that full blown schizophrenia has caused in their parent/sibling.
So, to sum up: could people with diagnosable, clinically significant ADHD be byproducts of evolution preserving the traits as beneficial in people with SOME ADHD traits, but none of the impairments?
Imo that framing would explain why many ADHD traits can appear, in isolation, to be useful or even enviable, as well as why some people with milder ADHD and effective treatment do go on to be highly accomplished - while also saving space for the true impairments that full blown and/or severe ADHD causes.
Going back to schizophrenia: while plenty of people are awful and cruel about the disease, anyone who genuinely understands it cannot help but to have compassion for those with it. Anyone who understands schizophrenia doesn’t try to hold them to standards that are unreachable for that particular individual. And, people with schizophrenia who’ve found a way to be moderately functional and independent typically do so in large part because they recognize and work within their limitations. Imagine if ADHD impairments were viewed similarly. After all, despite plenty of poor treatment, we don’t typically see people demanding individuals with full blown schizophrenia become creativity dancing monkeys.
I think you're on the right track by looking beyond the individual, but things may be simpler than you suggest (btw genetics is a field under constant misuse and abuse; there are too many moving parts once we're beyond a single gene).
Groups benefit from having a few people who may not perform well in the general case (may even be a hindrance to some degree), but who can think outside the box and introduce qualitative improvements every once in a while and, even more important, can save the day during those rare (but potentially existential) crisis situations (only to be forgotten and continue to be criticized, or even bullied, the following day, I may add).
Groups without such individuals will either stagnate and get overtaken, or get erased by something unexpected none of the hard-working linear thinkers can pull out a solution from the (nonexistent) chaos of their (completely average) brains.
Too many of these people would just leave to chaos and starvation though; there's a reason why we have some but not too many: societies on either of the extremes have long disappeared.
It's a myth that great warriors require enormous discipline, persistence, and focus. What made our ADHD hunter predecessors superior was their ability to employ the unique traits of procrastination and daydreaming as their ultimate weapons during hunts and battles."
There was very little battling among hunter-gatherers. What would they have battled over? They hardly had anything because they couldn’t save food and they had to carry everything they owned from place to place. You think they fought over women? Women and children as property didn’t become a construct until after agriculture, about 12,000 years ago.
Im a hunter gatherer who primarily has catch and release shoe shopping as my main outlet. As a gatherer i can say that ADHD definitely keeps me occupied as long as im gathering what i want to gather.
Sometimes I keep thinking about myself, and I don't know which characteristics of mine are mine or are part of ADHD. I always reflect on what would become of me if it weren't for this part of me.
People who say this seem to misunderstand evolution. Normal genetic variation produces a variety of phenotypes - some adaptive, others maladaptive. The adaptive ones will be selected for and will become more prevalent in the population. Therefore, if ADHD really was adaptive, it would have become the norm among human beings. This is not what we see.
ADHD's status as a minority trait shows that, although it crops up fairly often and there would have been plenty of opportunities for natural selection to boost its survival rate, that has not happened. It simply has not been selected for.
Wouldn't it be considered a variety of normal? Like having red hair, albinism etc? Or *just* a neurodevelopmental disorder, some form of retardation during pregnancy?
@@Varenyam86 I see ADHD as part of the normal human variation (i.e., neurodiversity). Some people have exceptionally strong attentional control, others exceptionally weak. I'm just pointing out that there is no reason to believe that ADHD was *selected for* by natural selection. Lots of behaviours or traits can be beneficial in certain contexts, but that doesn't mean they have been selected for.
@@propavshijbezvesti thanks for your reply, that's how I look at it too.
Plot twist: adaptation happens at the level of the group too.
Too few weirdos and there's stagnation.
Too many weirdos and there's starvation.
Hi Dr. Barkley.
I really enjoyed both your videos on this topic.
On the subject of Acquired forms of ADHD in adults, such as from injury or exposure:
I have had some lingering questions here and was curious to know from your experience if there is research that might provide some insight...
For my question, I'm imagining those who might have some dimension or spectrum of ADHD traits, but for the greater part of their life do not ever recognized these as an impairment, and thus a disorder. Understanding already from your videos & lectures that factors such as environment or nutrition (Omega 3s, etc) cannot be shown to be part of the etiology of ADHD in a structural sense. Even though there are possible deficits or stressors in these factors that can contribute to stifling attention & executive functioning.
I'm thinking of more superficial circumstances, like a gastrointestinal disorder that might yield malabsorption of nutrients, or stress-response chronic hyperarousal, burnout, or sleep apnea, or even an autoimmune disorder, which all can cause impairments in executive function.
For those with a fringe of ADHD traits, could these circumstances "push you over the line" into a state of impairment / disorder? Especially if they are chronic? Recognizing that the neurological structure has always had a degree of deficiency throughout life (perhaps not acquired ADHD, but exacerbated later in life).
Beyond this, into the realm of injury:
I'm curious about the various causes of neuroinflammation in the brain, including hyperarousal, the compromising of the blood-brain barrier, or even so-called "brain fog", but also the very serious neuroinflammation from Covid or post-covid-syndrome. Some of these conditions can be very serious, chronic, and lead to neurodegenerative diseases. These may not be from external toxins or from an injury event, but certainly degrade the function of brain tissue.
So I'm interested in your insights here, or what there might be from current or previous research.
Would you consider some of these circumstances to be an "injury" to where ADHD is acquired? Or would that distinction be reserved only for the more pronounced & progressed state of these conditions, such as a disease, for example? And otherwise be another "pushed over the line" situation?
I know this is a complex subject that might not be easily parsed out!
Thanks again for a very insightful lecture!
Credit to Hartman for the valiant attempt. However, there is NO way that I would have been a successful HG any more than a farmer. Yet, ADHD, HAS a phenotype.
My guess as to how ADHD would be adaptive in terms of sexual collection is the lack of impulse control. Having sex earlier in life and more often would definitely lead to the production of children, especially since throughout most societies in history that first pregnancy would likely lead to a forced marriage.
This might actually be spot on
To the brain injury argument: imagine a child who loses their sight at a young age. Their nervous system might adapt and they might hear better. This child does not need any genetic influence that might usually explain this. I hunch that every damage to the body may be adapted by the nervous system in good or bad.
I have an answer (also based on my family history... both recent and historically)... we get around, we're impulsive, we wander and travel and think 'why not?!' in the moment. Of course we were going to be prolific in our progeny.
@DrBarkley, you may not see this question but hopefully you will. If someone has an Aquired Postnatal Injury, like childhood lead poisoning or TBI, would that impact inherited genes passed down to future generations?
Or if ADHD is polygenetic, is it more likely some of the genetic risks are present, then can become expressed with acquired injury?
I just ask because my entire family is dx with ADHD but my dad swears his is result of lead exposure and concussions in childhood…which doesn’t make sense why the rest of us have it.
It’s possible if we understand that given enough genes for ADHD a person could be a mild or borderline case of ADHD and then any damage from poisoning or head trauma, etc. could further worsen those symptoms to move the person further into the clinically diagnosable range. I don’t think the poisoning or trauma affects the genes directly.
A fake 'origin myth' does not help me. Looking forward to part two!
the things i would do to just drink a beer and talk with this guy...
scratch that, not beer, I'd bust out the moonshine for this man
hunting and gathering requires planning and prioritisation. If I was to go down the precarious line of genotypes I'd say I'm more frolicking and wandering... perhaps along the way, noticing intriguing things but never quite following it through.
So, as much as I've loved and entertained that idea, it's on very shaky ground.
I just remembered a post in one of my ADHD support groups. Someone suggested that maybe all neurodiverse people should have their own island, then we'd be happy. I did briefly fantasise about this 'nirvana' but like most 'utopian' ideas, it quickly turns into dystopia. I have ADHD-C and for me neurodiversity is very much an oxymoron term if it doesn't include so called 'neurotypicals' whom I also appreciate greatly. Identity politics is in need of a dose of humanity.
I mentioned Dani from the reality TV show "Naked and Afraid XL" in another comment, where she was the weird one in the group, the one everybody resented for her "frolicking and wondering" (and bullied enough to make her tap out). Ironically, she was also the person who (through the very traits they hated her for) got the different small groups meet, and found the place with the mango trees etc.
Just because you're generally less productive than most others, even to a degree they resent you, it doesn't mean you're not a crucial member of the group in the few cases when it truly matters (even if your rare but potentially existentially important contribution would be forgotten virtually immediatly).
The point is that adaptation can happen at the level of the group, not just the individual, it doesn't have to look or feel good or acknowledged, and simplistic models like the ones presented here will ignore this.
I think ADHD people can have a higher understanding as the years go by, since an ADHD person is more likely to have real life experiences of a wider range of circumstances because of it's very nature, we will have actually experienced those mistakes that typical people only understand from knowledge.
I have learned all my social skills the hard way, while others seem to be born with them.
But now there is A.I. so we can write a book about our wild experiences and change that ADHD tax into an ADHD income.... maybe...@@Kirnotsarg
When I get 'round to it....
Sometime....
Possibly 😂😂
I feel like a hyper-competant, supersmart individual. I attribute part of my success to ADHD, and some of the less successful aspects I also attribute to ADHD. What I'm hearing is, I should really not attribute any of the success at all to ADHD, its more of an "in spite of" rather then a "because of?" The science isn't necessarily disproven, but rather hasn't been done. What is the corrolation between combat service medals and ADHD. What is the correlation between ADHD and PTSD among combat veterans? Controlling for the downsides of ADHD could also be problematic in the study setup, for instance, what percentage of otherwise deserving veterans have ADHD related bad conduct that makes them less likely to receive praise in terms of a medal for valorous service? Those are the sorts of studies that could answer the question, but since there is no actual theraputic value in knowing if it is true, its hard to imagine anyone wanting to fund that study.
There's a more important aspect though. Even if you suck in the general case (and getting a lot of heat for it), you may still be the one who saves the day when an existential threat hits. Or you may still be the one whose random invention will double production overnight.
Simplistic models don't look beyond the individual: "Can ADHD help a person to deal with life?" But adaptation happens not only at the level of the person, it also happens at the level of the group. Groups without just enough people who can think outside the box either stagnate or get taken out by something unexpected that the hard-working linear-thinking type doesn't know how to deal with.
Hands up if you're watching this at an accelerated playback speed. ✋
I have ADHD and also a relatively high intelligence. One of the most striking self-observations I've noticed about this is that I can think and problem solve in highly novel and creative ways that no neurotypical I have ever met can even begin to compete with (or often even understand) - it's like my mind exists in a completely different space, the literal definition of 'out of the box' thinking. And surely, that's part of the point. I could confer to any group or society an extraordinary adaptive advantage in the right circumstances. For all my faults and flaws, those who understand what this really means would have no doubt whatsoever how immeasurably valuable ADHD traits could be to the survival and advancement of their wider community and society.
Peculiar thing here I keep noticing is that many people think they're borderline geniuses or possess high IQ. Unfortunately people very often overestimate themselves to be "above average". You very likely have just average IQ, but created a narrative to soothe yourself due to your perceived shortcomings.
Could ADHD be similar to sickle cell anemia where the carrier of one gene has immunity against malaria with few if any blood problems? For example, for autism spectrum disorders there is some evidence that parents of autistic children are more likely to be engineers, mathematicians, musicians or any profession that requires a systematization. Can it be possible that there is a sweet spot where a certain degree of subclinical ADHD might give some advantages, such as creativity/out of box thinking, etc?
Can these genes be dormant and expressed later on in life?
I was diagnosed with add - lethargy.
I had the internal voice and never had any discipline action, school was hard only because I couldn’t stay awake but I was never hyper active.
I was later diagnosed with juvenile epilepsy and brain scarring possibly from years of contact sports, or from constant petite mal seizures.
Doctors to this day aren’t sure if I have adhd or epilepsy that’s affecting executive function (acquired ADHD?). EEGs are still abnormal but not life threatening and it seems like self regulation and motivation that I didn’t struggle with as a child, teen, early adulthood is getting more and more difficult as I grow older.
Roll on part 2!
I feel that is a good fit for me, id love to be a farmer....city life and dead end job that rewards me with nothing i value, i need money but i dont care if i ont have it! and on a farm its my land i can do what i want to do whenever, if i cant sleep i can go work on my tractors and no one will know, i live in a terraced house, i have to be quite at night
15:00 what about epigenetic effects - expecially due to nicotine exposure ?
When it comes to genetics the threshold is pretty low compared with the myths about survival of the fittest. You only need to get to breeding age and reproduce, you don't need to be good at life to do this or extra special, a pass will do. So yeah I'd imagine there would be a lot of 'junk' genes floating about, also if your relatives are carriers but less affected or unaffected they'd pass it on - so no you don't need to be optimal or superhuman or better adapted for a gene to continue to propagate. I would think though that some types of society suit some people more than others - so for example a highly social and extroverted society with high expectations of social aptitude would compound or make life more difficult for say a person who is introverted or has Autism than it might have otherwise been.
Possible variation - could having a minority with ADHD in a hunter gatherer group in dangerous territory be beneficial in terms of spotting danger? On the basis that a someone with wandering attention may be more likely to spot a predatory tiger or attacking human from a different tribe while they’re stealthily sneaking up. Particularly at times when all the others in the group are focusing on listening to what the group’s leader is saying or else concentrating on some task they’re agreed they’re all meant to be doing together.
I think your argument against it being a beneficial adaption is the most likely still but the above occurs to me as a possible niche scenario where it could be beneficial. I don’t particularly care either way personally if either turned out to be true, I’m just exploring a possible counter argument as a thought experiment.
Trying not to be crushed by the title of this video. Am I good for anything??? 😱
Yes, just probably not things that involve attention to detail during tedious work. I think the most important thing you can do is educate yourself on the ways that ADHD can limit someone's ability to perform at work and to be up-front about needing extra support/patience/oversight in those areas. For example, people with ADHD can make for good lawyers with their tendencies towards creative thinking, but a lawyer with ADHD would probably require an administrator and a paralegal on their team.
@annaharris2870 YOU are not your ADHD. So it doesn't matter whether ADHD symptoms are useful or not - you are so much more than ADHD, or any other condition that causes issues in your life. There's no reason to take this video so personally.
The fact people with these traits exist is indirect proof that groups that didn't have them couldn't stay around.
Which makes perfect sense once you think about it. It's usually not the average hard worker who figures out better ways to do things, or who can think outside the box to save the day when a crisis hits.
Being useless most of the time but making a huge improvement every once in a while, or being crucial in the rare case when the group's survival depends on it? That sounds quite important (but no, it won't get you recognition, not usually -- see my comment elsewhere here about Dani from "Naked and Afraid XL", who was crucial for the group's success and yet she got bullied till she tapped out for not being "generally productive").
wiki: Genetic variants (such as the DRD4 7R allele, as well as others on DRD4 and DRD2) conferring susceptibility to ADHD are very frequent-implying that the trait had provided selective advantage in the past.[8] However, "it is unlikely that the observed bias towards nonsynonymous amino-acid changes has been achieved only by positive selection favoring the DRD4 7R allele because the bias can be found not only in VNTR motifs of the DRD4 7R allele but also in those of the other alleles", observed by more recent research-the DRD4 7R allele had no evidence for recent positive selection.[9] Furthermore, a recent 2020 study found that ADHD allele frequency has been decreasing for up to 35,000 years, indicating negative selection.[10] These conclusions, however, are still compatible with the theory: "Overall, our results are compatible with the mismatch theory for ADHD but suggest a much older time frame for the evolution of ADHD-associated alleles compared to previous hypotheses."
A theory I'm more likely to believe is that ADHDers are guards or emergency workers. I feel like I would be excellent at both, because my brain is always scanning an wandering, and if I hear an unusual noise or smell an odd scent, or see a silhouette, my brain snaps into hyperfocus. I also excel in emergency situations, where I feel time freezing, and acquire almost superhuman focus and speed. An example is when I ran down from the second floor to put out a fire on the stove (that somebody else had left food to simmer on). When I was done putting it out, the people sitting in a room adjacent to the kitchen had just begun smelling "something funny".
sorry, but I really feel that there is something in those first two hypothesis - I do not hunt because of values I believe - but for me waiting in ambush for animal is one of few things that make my mind completely clear - I would use camera if I have more talent - this is strange because nature does not provide as much stimulation as modern environment - but there is this expectation of immediate reward - and I think this is why it works - this lowered number of stimuli equals lowering number of distractions - strange - in rich modern env. goals are more complex so it is harder to focus on certains parts of them - as you don't have clear goals you need additional stimulation this stimulation move you even more from any goal, they became distractions - this works this way - it would be nice to check well being of unmedicated (medication helps ofc) of people with ADHD leaving in cities and in rural areas
If eating or rather overeating sugar is an adaptive trait historically, and people with ADHD are more likely to over-eat or consume food compulsively according to your research, then won’t it be an adaptive trait by the transitive property?
Could hypoglycemia associated with Type 1 diabetes cause the kind of postnatal damage that would cause ADHD?
Do you have any opinions on Dr Gabor Mates view of ADHD where ADHD is a coping mechanism?
He sure does have a strong opinion on Gabor Mate... basically a debunking video, look it up its fun
Extremely adaptive to all sorts of sutuations, love archery and hunting, excel at whatever I put my attention to in a very short time. But I'm just a girl, so whatever.
I guess the version of this myth that I heard was not that ADHD was ever an advantage, but that it wasnt so deleterious in the preindustrial age because there was less...hm. Regimentation? In daily life. Or there are some cultures where punctuality is not so highly rated, for example.
Although, I can see ADHD being more problematic at a time when there were no technological tools to make up for the lack of an internal clock, for instance. So I guess even that is probably not so significant.
I think it's quite easy to imagine that in earlier era's having ADHD would not be much of a hindrance to natural selection. If I'm a nomad or explorer I need only be motivated to find my next meal and see what's over the horizon. I do not need to plan my month, or my week, or really even my day. The demand on my brain for executive function would be very low compared to a modern office worker. Further, if I'm a male I may be doing near zero family planning. I'm quite happy to mate with whomever comes along and don't care if I've provided future comforts for my progeny, most of whom are going to die in childhood. My odds of living to being 30 years old are low. Sure, all of that is just a case that supports ADHD surviving evolution, but it's not a total stretch to see how an impulsive, short sighted, hyperfocusing creative problem solving brain might thrive into breeding age in certain situations.
Maybe its a adaption to some natural drugs(ephedra) that now aren't consumed anymore. Maybe in some genes at least, would explain why the medication works in most of the time.
The impulsiveness and dopamine seeking we have probably really helps us pass on our genes if you think about it. 😉
Ha! The others should be grateful! We adapted in the moment to tigers and wild dogs, protecting the ones hunked down in the cave. Hey, we probably protected the farmers, too, so they could keep farming! 🤔👍
Great topic! I’ve have, for the longest time, vehemently opposed the Neurodiversity point of view, due to its, in my opinion, since the consequences of this socially constructed propaganda, works counterproductive and actually is both discriminatory and harmful, as it promotes a ‘no treatment needed here’. This is so damaging since the proponents of Neurodiversity completely disregard the - somatic - dangers across the lifespan, of getting no medicinal treatment. As you of all of all people know, the ‘comorbidity’ viewpoint of the totality of ADHD symptomatology. It is no coincidence that 80%+ suffers from a sleep disorder (which in my theory is actually due to a Circadian Rhythm Disruption Disorder), and that 40-70% of persons with Autism also meet the clinical criteria for ADHD as well.
“This is not by choice … this IS this disorder” as you said long ago 🥸
Furthermore, I call this need for ‘just a different way of thinking’ as the prevailing narrative, as yet another societal symptom- narcissism… People (parents and persons themselves) can use ADHD as a way to differentiate themselves from others, and to make them feel special and significant, while giving the ‘free-pass’ to act out.
As you’ve taught us “persons with ADHD do not need fewer rules or demands, than any other, but they need them closer in time, than others!”
BTW: Love your ‘Jimmy Buffet’ outfit - good to see that life (and yours) are treating you as you so certainly deserve! Be well /Peter
Thanks, Peter. I hope you are doing well.
Damn, that’s some cold, hard science. Is there not some utility in allowing some people to believe they’re special or different for a culturally adaptive reason? I personally can’t do that, I’ve always believed I was disabled and somehow inferior to others, even before I knew about my autism and adhd in my late 20s. Some people though, seem to really struggle with it and cling to the idea of neurodiversity. I kind of wish I could believe a better story about myself, even if it isn’t 100% scientifically sound…
i like my adhd personally. sure i struggle with things that "normal" people dont. half of that is cause the world is built for factory workers and pencel pushers. even in the field of arts, they try using the same methods, same with food.
i love to cook and i can just think about ingredients and know what its all gonna taste like when im all done, so this helps a lot. I also do some abstract art and im really good at comming up with lots of solutions to a problem and then looking at the pros and cons of them all in a very short ammount of time.
lots of people with autism can be verrryyy good at somehting spacific like an instrument that would make them world famous or perhaps cooking or coding.
we live in a world were everything that is different is a disorder and a disability because the world isnt made for us.
now sure some peole with autism or adhd or something have it so bad that any potential benifit is outwieghed by the negitives, and that does suck ofc.
but point is, if you feel like the way your brain is can help you and make you achive things better then others, then its not a disabillity for you and instead a unique ability, no matter what others say.
@@kirill2525 Actually, it wouldn't even matter if it was some kind of absolute truth that ADHDers are just bad at everything and have no strengths, because the only thing that matters is what's useful to you. And I'd bet that for most people it's more useful to believe they have strengths and are worthy, and that they can succeed.
Because we have to live with our ADHD one way or another. For people like Dr. Barkley it's just an interesting subject to study, and it shows in the way he talks about it.
Ofc there is some utility in believing that. Of anything just to lessen RSD. I think it's what burdens us the most, is the lack of knowledge, open/transparent communication, acceptance from our society and as a result: also from ourselves. I've been newly diagnosed since last April. Before that I felt like an immense failure for my messy house for instance, for skinpicking, feeling things so deeply, going against the current etc. I never wish to be someone else nor to fit in, but did wish to love myself better, be more 'get together' and be accepted by partners. After the diagnosis I felt relief. My new mantra is: "it's not me ("a bad person/failure") it's just my ADHD". Not as an excuse but as a way to be kind to myself. It helps tremendously with removing judgement/guilt/anxiety for not being able to be "perfect" (though I never wanted to, apparently I set high standards for myself). Now I compare myself way less to others to measure my 'success'. Being neurodivergent is in that regard, very freeing. Not clinging to that term, but feels like I finally understand myself and give myself permission to not be perfect. Doesn't mean I don't feel handicapped by having ADHD (and a lot of comorbidities) cause I do.. but sometimes understanding or a feel of beloning/knowing it has some meaning, changes your worldview radically.
well idk if i can totally agree with that, you cant make an argument for some one being a parapalegic and saying they ahre happy with that and it ofers advantages, i mean other then probably pitty or government money lol. adhd does actually have some very usefull points.
its like the difference between religion and spirituality. you can say religion offers this and that and is good for morality and heven but in reality its just a brainwashing system of controll forced onto people at a yong age or on individuals that want an excuse.
spiritualtiyy however teaches you that you have no limits and the world is what you make it but you have to take responsibility for yourself and work on yourself.
@@JoHouse533
@@Varenyam86 Not sure if you were responding to me, but I totally agree. When I was diagnosed with depression some years ago it gave me a way to not identify as much with those feelings and behaviors anymore, and use that label to define a more positive self image separate from the depression. Externalizing the bad things makes mental space to identify more with the good things. With ADHD I feel it's the same - acknowledging the difficulties due to ADHD can be liberating and remove unhelpful and unnessessary feelings of guilt and shame. Then it becomes easier to acknowledge your strengths as well, and create a new narrative based on those.
My theory is that ADHD is a survival mechanism. Always in fight or flight. It's how you learn to survive.
6:22 sounds like the best hunters had some organization skills instead of being thrill seekers and obsessive problem solvers. I guess there can be many different ways to be a successful hunter. But as a manager you must be reasonable and be able to let go.
Why do you say inherit risk genes from relatives instead of parents?
How does this explain the hyper focus or specialities of ADHD and autism? It seems one deficit in NT functioning is augmented in another? Given homosexuality was thought as a deficit for so long until someone who was made an articulate argument why it wasn't a psychological disorder. I personally know those who are considered rather successful who have been diagnosed with ADHD and/or autistic traits.
Even myself being diagnosed as an adult had 18+ credit semesters of hardcore college science courses and was able to get straight As which was attributed and perhaps dismissed due to my ADD hyper focus.
I'd also argue friends I know who have savant-like knowledge of celebrities or classical music seem to possess the skills required for medical recall but don't seem to enjoy the subject matter of science. It just seems we are artificially valuing certain traits in modern society which must coincide with difficult, renowned, esteemed subject matter because being able to recall the lyrics to an old song or the name of a piece from 1745 isn't going to save anyone's life.
And for those reasons these people are also not the ones you'll obtain in your studies or even know they possess such skills that would translate very well into other professions that would better highlight these discrepencies.
Ive noticed that its always "we were hunters, we were warriors, we were... something cool or badass". Its always somethinh so narcissistically salient, much like the whole past life nonsense. Has anyone ever noticed that no one was ever a peasants in a past life? Or a toilet cleaner or a slave?
If ADHD is rare in Japan, isn't that because, according to a video I saw that contrasted Japanese parenting with American parenting, Japanese moms spend on average 2 hours away from their babies per week, whereas American moms spend on average 24 hours away from their babies per week (and that's probably not even counting the time babies are isolated in a crib in a seperate room instead of being worn skin-on-skin on the moms chest in a sling). The Wikipedia page on attachment styles says tge percentage if Japanese people with an avoidant attachment style was like less than 1%, whereas for Americans it's way higher than 1%.
Is that the Cape Peninsula we see as a background picture?
it’s a waterfall in the Pacific Northwest shot with a slow shutter speed by my close friend, Tom Hammeke. And the other, larger one is a print of art from Charleston, SC by my deceased friend, John Carroll Doyle. thanks for asking.
My apologies, I meant the background picture on your computer screen in the beginning - but I do believe I was mistaken and it might be Catalina Island@@russellbarkleyphd2023
It is Catalina, an Apple background. Be well
ADHD summary: scientist exposed - it’s just a metaphor bro!!! Alternatively - man watches 300 and thinks damn i would have been 301!
if ADHD increase probability of unwanted pregnency in modern times (there are some proofs it is two times higher) then it could be also the case in past times - but ADHD genes do not dominate in population as they lowers fitness to environment because they affect executive functions
If cultures “change so rapidly”, how did they adapt (over 10,000+ years) in the first place.
It's simpler than that. Groups that had no weirdos who thought outside the box didn't progress and got overtook, or couldn't survive some random crises and got erased.
My pet theory is it simply makes it more likely for people to have more unplanned children!
I am not criticising your fundamental analysis and conclusions. Why using Bell curves as an argument? Bell curves are models. They practically never occur in the real world.
Yes "distorted" bell curves often occur, and this observation led to this model. But a perfectly drawn bell curve with both sides equally distributed and formed is mostly wrong and misleading. Nothing is distributed "normally", other then a few exceptions. And even those are rarely that on closer inspection.
What happens a lot unfortunately is that we look at populations, assume "normal distribution" and then start filling in numbers based on some facts.
Calling this distribution "normal" and "standard" has led to this enormous misunderstanding.
isn't there some evidence that adhd is linked with sexual promiscuity, not a doctor but that seems like a much cleaner explanation then us being some warrior class
i have adhd, and i wont put my dick into anyone i dont have feelings for cause thats just gross and a total missuce of the act itself wich should be about bonding with another as close as you posibly can. most people dont have adhd and they fust fuck because it feels good.
Makes sense, Evolution is based on reproduction right. It also maybe it's useful at a population level for some people to make bad decisions.
All hunter-gatherers had lots of sex.
Is there a connection between a c-section and ADHD?
Not that I have seen unless it was initiated due to serious complications in delivery that necessitated doing one but the research just isn’t that precise.
Interesting question. I do know that babies born via c-section have different microbiomes, are prone to gut issues. Since there is some research done (gut is considered "second brain") or correlation on poor diet/gut issues and more severe symptoms of ADHD, it wouldn't surprise me. Not as causation but maybe correlation? Am curious if there would be some reliable studies researching the effect of the birthing process (induced vs natural, with/without epidural, vaginal vs c-section) and ADHD. (Mention/tag me if you know of some 🙏🏻).
I was born C-section 🤔
I was forceps delivered. Mum said I had alot of bruising. I wonder now if there's any connection since baby bones are so much more malleable
If you'll forgive a colloquial analogy, isn't it reasonable for a person with sickle-cell anemia to take some consolation in the fact that they are resistant to malaria? We can acknowledge both the fact that an accumulation of these traits leads to problems and the fact that taken individually they may have some benefit. Novelty seeking, exploration preference, and impulsiveness may have advantages as well as disadvantages to individuals and groups, but there can be too much of a "good" thing. But that shouldn't preclude people finding satisfaction in the "good" parts of their personalities. In your video about neurodiversity, you say that people within a few standard deviations of the norm might reasonably be called "gregarious" or "effervescent", but people who are suffering should be considered impaired by the disorder. I get that some arguments on neurodiversity have gone too far, but is it really hurting anyone to acknowledge diagnosed ADHD people might be gregarious or talented in some way that coincides with their inpairment?
Sel-regulatory genes?? Is this rethorical?
No it’s not rhetorical. Didn’t mean to imply that. self regulation or it’s underlying executive functioning is substantially genetically influenced as seen in its high heritability and thus is a poly genetic trait the lower tail of the distribution of which is ADHD in my view.
Jimmy Buffet!!!!!
As someone who took up hunting as an adult, I can tell you ADHD is in no way helpful, at least for hunting ungulates. Probably the most important skills are patience and minimizing your movement. Sitting in a blind or treestand all day requires a lot of patience and sustained focus, as do stalking and still-hunting.
True for the modern Hunter with a long range firearm for sure
But would that apply to an Ancient Hunter?
Or from middle History, a battlefield scenario where enivroned from all angle attacks (not exactly a Hunt per se) but maybe another factor to consider
1:15 sorry but isn't evolution entirely random, traits pop up and just live on as long as the adhd individual gets to reproduce, so it may not be a particularly good survival trait but instead just randomly appear among the population, and since it didn't affect much of their survival and reproduction, this evolutionary trait gets to remain in the gene pool and pass on to our current generation?
It's almost as if groups without just enough of people with these traits didn't manage to survive in the long run...
@@tibs7095 that's interesting, we've got to take account of shift in not just cultural expectation but the personality and characteristics of individuals required in society of different eras to work, obviously since Newton, more and more of the type of personality that breeds physicists arose, as that was most needed, and perhaps ADHD has always been there, just that back when it was recognised as a thing in people, they were understood as being absent minded for a sec and so when the culture shifts into favouring consistency and constant throughput from individuals, do we recognise the effects of traits such as ADHD among people
ADHD is Also linked to the MMR.
ASD is Mainly linked to the MMR.