+No Free Will You can use a stronger gastrophetes the *heavier* you are, and sit-ups aren't going to add an appreciable amount of weight to your frame.
Joshua Madoc Greeks always had invention ahead of its time, gastraphetes, steam engine, antikythera(the very first computer), vending machine and many more
Clarence Alfonso Most people unfortunately do not know about the Antikythera Mechanism or the Water Organ, which had pistons and valves: th-cam.com/video/cSh551cdIEY/w-d-xo.html (Skip to 1:17:05)
The method of loading makes it ideal for wall defence, just push it into the bottom of the wall, place the bow on the edge off the wall and fire which would also allow it far better accuracy.
Not to mention the fact that if you were using this crossbow on even ground with a charging enemy, you wouldn't be able to get many shots off before they reach you. So if you're firing it from a wall, you don't have to worry about people charging you & you can shoot 'n' reload all day.
Indeed. And the ability for sustained fire with less exhaustion to the bowman would make it more useful than a longbow in that regard, so long as the supply of bolts was plentiful (as would be in a walled city). You couldn't get that kind of sustainable firepower from a crossbow until the cranequin was invented in the 1300s.
It was actually invented to provide counter-fire against archers defending walls. When Syracuse besieged the Carthagian port of Motya, their gastraphetes were able to outrange the bows of the defenders and suppress them, allowing their soldiers to close in and assault the walls.
@@tods_workshop and if youre a fat eccentric jovial mediterranean philosopher u like flexing like Zeus hurling lightning/vajra bolts from above anyway... but with a forkrest/stand like new age muskets/arquebi had and 1-2 squires for every 'bolt-knight' reloading and handing rotating altogether like 3 of these this could be viable in open battle from behind minimal picket/pavise/street barricades...
Ever since I watched your video of this, I've been fascinated with the ingenuity behind the design... Especially given the time period it was invented(bless those clever Greeks). I've been racking my brain on how to incorporate the basic concept with more modern design philosophies to create a fun, if not clunky, toy and/or hunting weapon. Some ideas I have include: -Making the frame with a baked in riser that's compatible with various different limbs Have the entire rod assembly include a full handle/trigger system that slides as a whole unit and can be released in a more comfortable, familiar way Have the "belly stock" capable of rotating 90 degrees to allow it to act as a comfortable shoulder stock for accurate aiming Just some thoughts. I think something like this in the modern day could really work well
I think I remember reading some where that Phillip of Macedon or Alexander the great put together a team of Greek philosophers and technicians to develop new weapons before his campaigns in Persia. This belly bow was one of their designs, also the huge siege towers and artillery. Ancient military research and development department.
Yep, they develloped the ballista from this and the oxybeles, the Ballista used torsion spring, and could deliver much more energy than from a bow. Alexander the great was extremely successful in siege warfare, and he would put ballistas in siege towers to hammer the walls, and on top to clear the walls of defenders, on ships too i belive, and on ocassion deploy them as field artillery. The Gastraphetes would most likely be deployed with large standing shields, with a whole in them to aim the weapon. They could then advance to their effective range, and shoot at anyone looking over the wall, even compete with bowmen, the slow reload would not matter, as all you had to do was pull the trigger once you had a archer in your sight, while he had to knock, draw, aim and loose, and att the same time try to hit someone through a small whole.
Fat? No, I'm just conditioning my body for the belly-bow Olympics. I'm in the carb-loading phase of my training . . . which should last a few more years.
Well, you'll never become an expert without training, I'm gearing up for the Olympics myself, see you at the games in ´28, and may the fattest man win, good luck!:-)
Gastraphetes: from gastro ("γαστρο-") which is a prefix signifying belly-(e.g. gastronomy), and aphetes from the verb afino "αφήνω" which means "to let go".
Dimitris Tripakis so pretty Mitch an exact translation of belly bow. Because if you think about it, the active verb of using a bow is to release, or let go of the string.
The legolas MIGHT have been used occasionally. Could not be used on horseback. The repeating capability is not faster than other speed shooting ways. Its bulky and awkward
@@kooroshrostami27 the Turks would shoot fast. They used it in both offensive and defensive. There view was why shoot one aimed arrow slowly if you can loose twice as many.
i remember a Wikipedia article with a list of the draw weight and range of ancient and medieval ranged weapons, cant find it now but the heavy medieval crossbow pretty much outperforms everything in every category, except for reloading times of course
I suspect you're right @@kevingooley9628, but some people can get incredibly accurate at hip firing various weapons. I've seen videos of an old farmer guy doing incredible shots with an elastic band slingshot, all from the hip.
I may be missing something, but I see no reason that the butt end can't rest on your chest at shoulder level. That would make accurate shooting easier.
@@steirqwe7956 Sorry, but that just doesn't stand testing it out. Thumbs exist. Hold any object at your shoulder or at the top of your sternum and see if you can put your thumb on top. You can. It is easy. Quite a few shotguns put their safety or the lever for opening the action just where the trigger is on this crossbow, and brag about what a convenient placement it is ergonomically. nearly all bolt action rifles do as well.
And the size of it should make it quite heavy for shoulder level. Imagine that sieges and combats could last very long, that would tire the warrior too much
@@GunFunZS Likely for quickness. The thing with ranged weapons and artillery is you want to be able to fire and reload fast. A typical archer was supposed to be able to shoot three arrows in a second. Including the European longbows. Crossbows got around this issue with different systems. From levers that stayed on the crossbow, to advanced cranks that was gets it down quickly. Or with arballist users, you had several ranks of them firing and reloading in an alternating fashion. With a belly bow. It looks like you reset it load it and lift it back without the crossbow ever leaging your belly, saving time. The other part of it is, having something that big, that heavy, and that high extending a yard off of your chest will cause balancing issues and make aiming even harder. And then leverage. The center of a males (The usual soldier) gravity is near their chest. When you try to push it down by your chest you'll find it a lot harder... even though it conceptually looks like you are actually using all of your weight. If you lower it further, you have more of your weight being levered by the mechanism.
there isn't a trigger on this weapon : to shoot it, you have to pull the part holding the string back towards you, making it release the arrow. As this mechanism is placed on top of the weapon, holding it on the belly is actually the most practical way of reaching it with your hand. If you were to try it by holding it on the shoulder you wouldn't be able to reach it with your hand
@@RoulicisThe I could probably make a trigger mechanism for it by moving some pieces around no need to even add parts... For instance I would try putting the ratcheting parts on the bottom also I would make it so the handles could fold backwards then you could use it as a stock.
I remember this from a documentary. The version in that had a leg under the body to make it easier to aim. As I recall, a city expecting attack had enough warning to get hundreds of these made (along with ammunition), and it was simple enough to use that any old citizen could stand on the walls and shoot at the invaders. The attack was easily repelled.
If you could implement the Black Riders fighting technique, were also known as "devil riders" because of the blackened armor they wore. They first appeared in Germany in the sixteenth century. The Riders developed a special tactic known as "caracole," which allowed them to effectively bombard infantry units with constant weapons fire. In caracole, cavalry units created a tight formation. The units in front fired their weapons, and then quickly charged to the back to reload. The units that were just behind them fired immediately after the first row charged backwards to reload."
It seems like the rides who just shot could just slow and let those at the ready overtake them, or if in a stationary block, just get clear of the following rank then more casually walk their mounts to the rear; it seems odd that any charging to the rear would be involved.
I've seen a lot of people claiming that the gastraphetes is "inferior" to the more familiar medieval crossbow. Well, that is axiomatic, since the medieval era was over _1000 years_ after the gastraphetes was invented!! Obviously, people would make some technological improvements over the course of a millennium; it's really only in science fiction that military technology manages to remain unchanged for 1000 years. Of course, one could argue that they fought with knives in 2000 BC, and our soldiers today still carry (and sometimes use) knives in combat which don't differ drastically in shape from those carried by their ancient counterparts. However, the technology for knife-making and metallurgy has certainly advanced considerably over the millennia, giving much more consistent and superior results to anything even the best ancient bladesmiths could have produced. As for the gastraphetes itself, I can see this having a number of advantages over a contemporary composite bow: 1. It requires much less training and upper body strength to use. Shooting a bow requires very specific muscles that take time to train up. You can train a conscript to use a gastraphetes effectively in less than a day. 2. Repeat shots with the gastraphetes seem much less tiring than with a composite bow of the same draw weight. You are just using your body weight to span the bow, rather than having to draw back with your arm repeatedly. 3. Whilst there is no safety (the idea of putting safeties on weapons didn't seem to occur to anyone until the Renaissance, apparently), one could keep a gastraphetes ready to fire without fatiguing the shooter for longer than any person could hold a bow at full draw. The main downsides to the gastraphetes when compared to regular bows are the same as any crossbow vs. bow comparison: 1. It is more complex to build and requires more material than a regular composite bow, and thus would be more expensive 2. It is bulkier and slower to fire than a regular bow. I personally think the gastraphetes is a very fascinating device, and a really clever solution to make a crossbow without needing a carefully machined locking mechanism. It is the ancestor of the more familiar crossbow just as the musket is the ancestor of the modern assault rifle. You can't have the latter without the former. Each has been effective in its respective time period, and each can still be quite lethal in the right hands, even today. I don't think any sane person would volunteer to be shot at with Tod's gastraphetes... in the very least, that projectile drop will ensure that an arrow aimed at your centre of mass will potentially hit you in the family jewels.
Todd, with your weight leaning on the bow, you could pull another 30 lbs just grasping the string to load it some more. Firing it I don't think would be from the waist unless as a barrage. I'm certain some kind of support would have been used or a sheild.
Wow ... just seeing this for the first time in 2020 and it blew my mind. Such a creative invention. Now I can't help but wonder if you could make a more powerful version by making it bigger and pushing it from the chest rather than the abs, with a longer draw length and a bigger arrow. Or if that would even be necessary (I mean, Tod did say the one he's using is 90 pounds and that's definitely in the war bow range). Also could a handle be added to the slider bar with some type of automatic locking mechanism to increase speed. I may have to do some research on this myself and try to make one just so I can play around with it.
Its a pitty that you did not showed much more of it. I am interested in the mechanism and in the range. PS: Be careful with your fingers!! The string could rip one off!
That seems much more effective than the medieval - 20th century crossbows. 90 lb draw with the long draw length would be impressive to do ballistics testing to see how powerful it was. To think the Greeks developed a crossbow that was powerful and quicker to load than a windlass crossbow.
I read that Wiki article and it states that the first mention of a Chinese crossbow is from the 4th century BC and the first mention of Greek crossbows was late 5th century. I do believe 5th century BC is older than 4th century BC,
Isn't the TH-cam algorithm great, it thought that today I needed to see your video from 5 years ago! And it was right. I had heard of the "belly bow" before, but never seen one in use, so this was a treat. I have one observation/thought on aiming. The fire rate seems a little too slow for massed artillery fire, so the "shoot from the hip" style of point down range and fire wouldn't greatly reduce the effectiveness of such a powerful bow. Though I have to say that from what looks like 20 meters, you were grouping those three shots pretty well. But if you could aim the bow reasonably well, then troop commanders at the rear of the opposing force might then find themselves in harms way. The ability to target the leadership of your enemy might then be worth the cost of such a powerful but slow firing bow. My thought is that a U-shaped saddle block on the bottom of the bow at the rear would allow the bow to rest on your shoulder (sort of like you see a modern RPG launcher fired). This would allow the operator to simply aim by looking directly down the bolt/arrow. Alternatively a simple peg on the inside of the bow would provide a sight that could be set for say a 100 meters with skill providing the amount of depression/elevation for shorter and longer ranges (half a body length low for 50 meters, full body length high for 150 meters). And since they were skilled metalsmiths, you could even do something with a bronze rod perpendicular to the body of the bow to give sighting marks for different ranges.
It should be locked in place with a groove. Best way to do this is with a router. There are many ways to do it. It’s hard for me to explain because english isn’t my first language and I’m bad at explaining in text.
Draw weight is not as important as length of the draw, as it provides a much longer time to influence and accelerate an arrow. Also a longer heavier arrow will have more retained energy. Thats why people commonly can take deer with a simple 35 lb. , basic longbow.
That's a very ingenious way of cocking the crossbow. Not the most practical, but surely ingenious. It looks like you made your stock a bit too long tho, if the part with no teeth close to the "gastric plate" was shorted or eliminated, you could have a shorter weapon over which it's easier to lean, so easier to put more weight on.
I think, that if that part of bow, where you lean to, is turnable. In other words, if it would be a turnable part, then you can turn in to vertical position (instead of fixed horizontal position) to make a bit better aim. Or what if that part is slightly below than the actual body of the bow, then it would be even better to aim with eye.
Hey Tod, please do a video comparing the speed of loading and shooting for one of each of the kinds of crossbows you have made, and please include a list of weights in the description.
Forgive my ignorance, but why would one not span it using your belly and then fire it with it resting higher up on the chest? It just seems that sighting such a device one would naturally want to get it as near eye level as possible. Or maybe it was a closer range melee weapon where "spray and pray" was first used at closer quarters? Or perhaps a defensive weapon from city walls?
Amazing technology!! What if the belly bit could also rotate (and lock) to become a stock that you could put against your shoulder and aim down the bolt??
Does this method of using your body weight to draw out the bow allow a man to use a bow with a greater draw weight than what he could use in the 'regular' fashion, i.e. pushing with one arm and pulling the bow string back with the other?
@@Verradonairun late reply, but Work = Force x Distance. A lower draw weight with a longer draw back (power stroke) can have a more " powerful" shot that a higher draw weight bow.
¡Felicitaciones, Señor armero! Su ejemplar de gastraphetes es hermoso y funcional. Yo estoy en mira de fabricar uno propio, y tomaré elementos del suyo para crearlo... Pero, tengo una pregunta ¿el arco que usted montó es compuesto?
Makes you wonder if there was ever a variation that had a detachable rear handle that slipped on much like a windlass so it could be shot from the shoulder
Hey Todd that looks great. Haven't seen you post a video on youtube in a while so i'll take this opportunity to ask a few questions. How long do you reckon would it take to train someone in the use of a crossbow suited to battlefield use? What made Genoese crossbowmen so special they turn up everywhere from France to the Baltic? And how accurate is one of those heavier crossbow in the 80-40 meter range?
***** Thanks for the answer, I already had a hunch there was enough training and skill involved to make it worthwhile to hire foreign troops. At what range can you start targeting specific parts of the human body, say heads or thighs? One of the drawings of Paul Dolstein shows Swedish crossbowmen shooting and hitting those targets but the distance at which they hit those targets is not really clear. www.denstoredanske.dk/@api/deki/files/11656/%3D36686173.jpg I really wonder how crossbow accuracy differs from longbow and contemporary early handguns.
***** Is that accuracy attainable with a crossbow with more or less effort? I heard more than a few claims that crossbows are more accurate than handbows. Is there any truth to it or just people looking at bow and crossbow accuracy at similar levels of training?
***** And what about distances closer and further than 40 yards? Sorry if I am asking a lot. I am curious to know in what aspects crossbows and longbows differ outside of the training time and fire rate which we so often hear about. Perhaps something to do a video on? Regards, Dushin
***** That's true and I've rarely read about a battle where the crossbowmen facing archers were not outnumbered by a fair bit. Thanks for all the answers and carry on good sir.
accuracy has more to do with the person shooting & the quality of the weapon i would think than which of the two types of weapon BUT the less trained person will have a easier time shooting accurately with a crossbow, (it merely takes more time to be as accurate with a bow) , just talking from my own experiences.
Wot an interesting weapon. A cross between a bow and crossbow with a few elegant features tossed in. Not accurate perhaps unless very experienced. Flaxen Saxon
This bow is very interesting. Random thought. If the wooden piece in the middle were to slide, but not fire out when pulling the trigger, would that mess with the arrows flight?
Okay Tod, In light of your recent Instant Legolas experiences, do you have any new takes on this type of bow? Could the belly bow be magazine fed? Why couldn't this belly bow be shot from the shoulder? It would be a very quick way to span and fire a very heavy bow. It would not be as fast as the Instant Legolas but it would solve the unassisted draw weight limits it runs up against. In theory a two hundred pound man should be able to lean into a two hundred pound bow and cock it. If that was paired to a magazine and a mechanism to hold the bow at draw, you would have a devastating weapon from the battlements. This old video really made me think, I hope you read this.
They are OK, but I weight 85Kg and I can just load a 45Kg bow using this method, so not perhaps as you would imagine it. accuracy is quite good though with a little practice.
Roman artillery such as the ballistas and scorpions are torsion weapons that use a set of twisted sinew to provide power. These are tension weapons similar to bows/crossbows and are not their predecessors.
@@Intranetusa I have also seen what seem to be period diagrams of what could be called a "transitional" form of weapon, a ballista sized gastraphetes type weapon, mounted on a base, with a windlass at the back to draw back the slider and dog, but with am oversized tension bow instead of the more familiar torsion windings.
@@kevingooley9628 Are you referring to early medieval weapons or late Western Roman weapons? Can you let me know where you have seen these, as I am interested. Thanks
@@Intranetusa what little information that survives seems to indicate late Greek period, around 375 BCE or so. Sadly, like so much of that era, original works have been lost, so it's mostly Roman writers from a few hundred years later referring to a work, sort of if in a thousand years, instead of Thomas Jefferson's writings, all they had was high school history books. They are referenced as Oxybeles, bolt thrower, and lithobolos, stone thrower. There is a reference no Charon of Magnesia calling a 9 foot long frame mounted gastraphetes a lithobolos, (windlass wound in description). Also some references by Diodorus Suculus (Roman, and I've likely mangled the name). It seems like they only existed for a short time, and we're quickly supplanted by torsion powered weapons, which were much more powerful and compact that giant ass bows. If anyone can find the citations I cannot, thanks.
remarkable job. (not quite as much of a "wow" as the medieval ones, but amazing in entirely different ways) As ever, I'm envious of the lucky git who gets to own it. :)
This is how japan should of weaponized Sumo wrestlers in times of war. in theory they could shoot up to 600 lb belly bows. It's ultimate range depends on how many wankosoba noodle bowls you can finish in one sitting maybe.
It's intention was probably towards siege, like heavy crossbows we're used. You could move up towards the enemy walls, and have a large standing shield infront of you, with a whole in it, then you simply aimed and rested the weapon on the whole, waited til you got a good aim att a soldier standing on the wall and fire. While in open battle it would be slow, but a siege that goes on for weeks, the reload is not an issue, that's why crossbows we're popular, you could send a bolt or arrow as soon as you saw someone peeking over the wall, while a bow you had to knock, draw and aim.
Imagine an elite strongman like Haftor or Brian Shaw getting one custom made to match their weight and power, stringing a bow like this. 400+ lb on weight alone, and if they could use straps attached to the ground it would be past 1500lb draw weight.
this is so cool. todd, maybe you can do a video on all self-span types of crossbows? there's one from the middle ages, i forget its name - Loeffelholz MS ?
I'm going to presume that, due to the crossbow body design, this bow still needs fletchings like a traditional crossbow, yes? As in I couldn't feasibly fire off a traditional arrow from it? Either way, the design of this weapon is very clever and interesting to me. Probably my favorite one that I've seen you show off(although the munitions crossbow is lovely and the little metal one is really cool too. Ballestrina, or something like that, right?)
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Finally a weapon that works better the fatter you are!
***** "But Mooom I need more cake so I can shoot better!"
Daniel Taylor this was used by greeks.. getting food wouldnt be difficult just visit the gandmother
Do more sit ups, bro.
+No Free Will You can use a stronger gastrophetes the *heavier* you are, and sit-ups aren't going to add an appreciable amount of weight to your frame.
Its jsut what I need!
"Obviously rather difficult to aim," says the guy who plunks the next two shots pretty close to dead center. :-)
I admit, this is a much more advanced and elegant invention than I thought it would look. Almost ahead of it's time, even.
Joshua Madoc Greeks always had invention ahead of its time, gastraphetes, steam engine, antikythera(the very first computer), vending machine and many more
Yes, the high tech super weapons of their time
Clarence Alfonso
Most people unfortunately do not know about the Antikythera Mechanism or the Water Organ, which had pistons and valves: th-cam.com/video/cSh551cdIEY/w-d-xo.html (Skip to 1:17:05)
I was thinking the same exact thing. This design and its action "wowed" me.
@@sayanorasonic: I think the Chinese invented some kind crossbow about 200 years before the Greeks invented this thing.
The method of loading makes it ideal for wall defence, just push it into the bottom of the wall, place the bow on the edge off the wall and fire which would also allow it far better accuracy.
Not to mention the fact that if you were using this crossbow on even ground with a charging enemy, you wouldn't be able to get many shots off before they reach you. So if you're firing it from a wall, you don't have to worry about people charging you & you can shoot 'n' reload all day.
Indeed. And the ability for sustained fire with less exhaustion to the bowman would make it more useful than a longbow in that regard, so long as the supply of bolts was plentiful (as would be in a walled city). You couldn't get that kind of sustainable firepower from a crossbow until the cranequin was invented in the 1300s.
It was actually invented to provide counter-fire against archers defending walls. When Syracuse besieged the Carthagian port of Motya, their gastraphetes were able to outrange the bows of the defenders and suppress them, allowing their soldiers to close in and assault the walls.
@@kovona fascinating! thank you
@@tods_workshop and if youre a fat eccentric jovial mediterranean philosopher u like flexing like Zeus hurling lightning/vajra bolts from above anyway...
but with a forkrest/stand like new age muskets/arquebi had and 1-2 squires for every 'bolt-knight' reloading and handing rotating altogether like 3 of these this could be viable in open battle from behind minimal picket/pavise/street barricades...
Ever since I watched your video of this, I've been fascinated with the ingenuity behind the design... Especially given the time period it was invented(bless those clever Greeks).
I've been racking my brain on how to incorporate the basic concept with more modern design philosophies to create a fun, if not clunky, toy and/or hunting weapon. Some ideas I have include:
-Making the frame with a baked in riser that's compatible with various different limbs
Have the entire rod assembly include a full handle/trigger system that slides as a whole unit and can be released in a more comfortable, familiar way
Have the "belly stock" capable of rotating 90 degrees to allow it to act as a comfortable shoulder stock for accurate aiming
Just some thoughts. I think something like this in the modern day could really work well
I think what you're trying to create is the instant Legolas that joreg sprave made lol
Looks great, especially after 2500 years.
I think I remember reading some where that Phillip of Macedon or Alexander the great put together a team of Greek philosophers and technicians to develop new weapons before his campaigns in Persia. This belly bow was one of their designs, also the huge siege towers and artillery. Ancient military research and development department.
Yep, they develloped the ballista from this and the oxybeles, the Ballista used torsion spring, and could deliver much more energy than from a bow. Alexander the great was extremely successful in siege warfare, and he would put ballistas in siege towers to hammer the walls, and on top to clear the walls of defenders, on ships too i belive, and on ocassion deploy them as field artillery. The Gastraphetes would most likely be deployed with large standing shields, with a whole in them to aim the weapon. They could then advance to their effective range, and shoot at anyone looking over the wall, even compete with bowmen, the slow reload would not matter, as all you had to do was pull the trigger once you had a archer in your sight, while he had to knock, draw, aim and loose, and att the same time try to hit someone through a small whole.
Rather impressive grouping considering you're shooting from the hip.
Literally from the hip lol
Fat? No, I'm just conditioning my body for the belly-bow Olympics. I'm in the carb-loading phase of my training . . . which should last a few more years.
Well, you'll never become an expert without training, I'm gearing up for the Olympics myself, see you at the games in ´28, and may the fattest man win, good luck!:-)
The Belly Bow-lympics? I can scarcely contain myself. New corset then.
I would be like: "Hey, random guy, can you jump on my back?"
random guy: "Why?"
me: "I have only 55 kg and I need to draw this thing." :-D
I wish you'd revisit this, such an interesting weapon. It'd be interesting to study the range and force of its shots.
Gastraphetes:
from gastro ("γαστρο-") which is a prefix signifying belly-(e.g. gastronomy), and
aphetes from the verb afino "αφήνω" which means "to let go".
Sounds like that word would be better suited for a big fart than a bow.
Dimitris Tripakis so pretty Mitch an exact translation of belly bow. Because if you think about it, the active verb of using a bow is to release, or let go of the string.
KesselRunHero your welcome. Sometimes things aren’t so directly translated, so I found it neat.
Other than the repeating capability, the Instant Legolas mechanism has been around for a long time it seems...
Look up the polybolos. It’s a mounted chain gun variant of an IL.
The legolas MIGHT have been used occasionally. Could not be used on horseback. The repeating capability is not faster than other speed shooting ways. Its bulky and awkward
@@Daylon91 but you wouldn't really speedshoot on the battlefield, would you? I reckon thats ineffective
@@kooroshrostami27 the Turks would shoot fast. They used it in both offensive and defensive. There view was why shoot one aimed arrow slowly if you can loose twice as many.
How does this compare, power wise, to Medieval style crossbows? Less draw weight but more draw length, but how about downrange power?
I'd like to hear this as well. Obviously it's much harder to aim.
@@valkoharja I believe the prevailing theory is that it was used more for long range area saturation, similar to English archers in the 100 years war.
i remember a Wikipedia article with a list of the draw weight and range of ancient and medieval ranged weapons, cant find it now but the heavy medieval crossbow pretty much outperforms everything in every category, except for reloading times of course
I suspect you're right @@kevingooley9628, but some people can get incredibly accurate at hip firing various weapons. I've seen videos of an old farmer guy doing incredible shots with an elastic band slingshot, all from the hip.
@@valkoharja no reason that you must fire it from the hip. It could rest on the chest at shoulder level when shooting off hand.
Any Age of Mythology fans out there?
Yo!
Prostagma
@@gabrielmartinsdepoli7166
Skipon?
Glad there's hope
Vulome
I may be missing something, but I see no reason that the butt end can't rest on your chest at shoulder level. That would make accurate shooting easier.
The trigger is on the top of the thing, unlike crossbows. It would require some trickery to safely reach the trigger while on the shoulder level.
@@steirqwe7956 Sorry, but that just doesn't stand testing it out. Thumbs exist. Hold any object at your shoulder or at the top of your sternum and see if you can put your thumb on top. You can. It is easy. Quite a few shotguns put their safety or the lever for opening the action just where the trigger is on this crossbow, and brag about what a convenient placement it is ergonomically. nearly all bolt action rifles do as well.
And the size of it should make it quite heavy for shoulder level. Imagine that sieges and combats could last very long, that would tire the warrior too much
@@GunFunZS You're right, it could easily be fired from the shoulder. Also wrists rotate.
@@GunFunZS Likely for quickness. The thing with ranged weapons and artillery is you want to be able to fire and reload fast. A typical archer was supposed to be able to shoot three arrows in a second. Including the European longbows. Crossbows got around this issue with different systems. From levers that stayed on the crossbow, to advanced cranks that was gets it down quickly. Or with arballist users, you had several ranks of them firing and reloading in an alternating fashion. With a belly bow. It looks like you reset it load it and lift it back without the crossbow ever leaging your belly, saving time. The other part of it is, having something that big, that heavy, and that high extending a yard off of your chest will cause balancing issues and make aiming even harder.
And then leverage. The center of a males (The usual soldier) gravity is near their chest. When you try to push it down by your chest you'll find it a lot harder... even though it conceptually looks like you are actually using all of your weight. If you lower it further, you have more of your weight being levered by the mechanism.
Crossbow for STR builds lol
More like Crossbow for CONSTITUTION builds.
@@hex808080 but is it for low consitution builds? inverting the penalty to a weapon power bonus
This is very cool - and as an so early weapon technically great developed.
It can be far more powerful and faster to reload than heavy crank operated crossbows. Ideal weapon for castle defense.
If you take off the palls you've got an ancient pogo-stick!
For some reason I imagine this being used from the back of a chariot, beginning a good old tradition of drive-by shooting :)
Another surviving technical method.
I appreciate you covering the ancient greek belly bow.
I don't think it's necessary to *shoot* it from the belly as well as load it.
there isn't a trigger on this weapon : to shoot it, you have to pull the part holding the string back towards you, making it release the arrow. As this mechanism is placed on top of the weapon, holding it on the belly is actually the most practical way of reaching it with your hand. If you were to try it by holding it on the shoulder you wouldn't be able to reach it with your hand
@@RoulicisThe I could probably make a trigger mechanism for it by moving some pieces around no need to even add parts... For instance I would try putting the ratcheting parts on the bottom also I would make it so the handles could fold backwards then you could use it as a stock.
I remember this from a documentary. The version in that had a leg under the body to make it easier to aim. As I recall, a city expecting attack had enough warning to get hundreds of these made (along with ammunition), and it was simple enough to use that any old citizen could stand on the walls and shoot at the invaders. The attack was easily repelled.
If you could implement the Black Riders fighting technique, were also known as "devil riders" because of the blackened armor they wore. They first appeared in Germany in the sixteenth century. The Riders developed a special tactic known as "caracole," which allowed them to effectively bombard infantry units with constant weapons fire. In caracole, cavalry units created a tight formation. The units in front fired their weapons, and then quickly charged to the back to reload. The units that were just behind them fired immediately after the first row charged backwards to reload."
It seems like the rides who just shot could just slow and let those at the ready overtake them, or if in a stationary block, just get clear of the following rank then more casually walk their mounts to the rear; it seems odd that any charging to the rear would be involved.
@@JackVermicelli More or less the same, it was based around the crossbow volley developed by the Italians
When you start with a legendary weapon on the first mission
Came here after Joerge Sprave made a modern version with a magazine.
Nice, i find it interesting. Good you have built something so rarely heard of.
I've seen a lot of people claiming that the gastraphetes is "inferior" to the more familiar medieval crossbow. Well, that is axiomatic, since the medieval era was over _1000 years_ after the gastraphetes was invented!! Obviously, people would make some technological improvements over the course of a millennium; it's really only in science fiction that military technology manages to remain unchanged for 1000 years.
Of course, one could argue that they fought with knives in 2000 BC, and our soldiers today still carry (and sometimes use) knives in combat which don't differ drastically in shape from those carried by their ancient counterparts. However, the technology for knife-making and metallurgy has certainly advanced considerably over the millennia, giving much more consistent and superior results to anything even the best ancient bladesmiths could have produced.
As for the gastraphetes itself, I can see this having a number of advantages over a contemporary composite bow:
1. It requires much less training and upper body strength to use. Shooting a bow requires very specific muscles that take time to train up. You can train a conscript to use a gastraphetes effectively in less than a day.
2. Repeat shots with the gastraphetes seem much less tiring than with a composite bow of the same draw weight. You are just using your body weight to span the bow, rather than having to draw back with your arm repeatedly.
3. Whilst there is no safety (the idea of putting safeties on weapons didn't seem to occur to anyone until the Renaissance, apparently), one could keep a gastraphetes ready to fire without fatiguing the shooter for longer than any person could hold a bow at full draw.
The main downsides to the gastraphetes when compared to regular bows are the same as any crossbow vs. bow comparison:
1. It is more complex to build and requires more material than a regular composite bow, and thus would be more expensive
2. It is bulkier and slower to fire than a regular bow.
I personally think the gastraphetes is a very fascinating device, and a really clever solution to make a crossbow without needing a carefully machined locking mechanism. It is the ancestor of the more familiar crossbow just as the musket is the ancestor of the modern assault rifle. You can't have the latter without the former. Each has been effective in its respective time period, and each can still be quite lethal in the right hands, even today. I don't think any sane person would volunteer to be shot at with Tod's gastraphetes... in the very least, that projectile drop will ensure that an arrow aimed at your centre of mass will potentially hit you in the family jewels.
On your website, this crossbow dates back to 5th Century BC, this is a pretty good mechanism for it's time.
Todd, with your weight leaning on the bow, you could pull another 30 lbs just grasping the string to load it some more. Firing it I don't think would be from the waist unless as a barrage. I'm certain some kind of support would have been used or a sheild.
@@tods_workshop At that point, the string is close to the handles anyway - it should be easy. like loading a fishing speargun - palms down
I am in an ancient greek reenactment troop. I need this :D
Wow ... just seeing this for the first time in 2020 and it blew my mind. Such a creative invention. Now I can't help but wonder if you could make a more powerful version by making it bigger and pushing it from the chest rather than the abs, with a longer draw length and a bigger arrow. Or if that would even be necessary (I mean, Tod did say the one he's using is 90 pounds and that's definitely in the war bow range). Also could a handle be added to the slider bar with some type of automatic locking mechanism to increase speed. I may have to do some research on this myself and try to make one just so I can play around with it.
This reminds me of many of Di Vinci’s diagrams, great in theory, not so good in practice. I just can’t imagine all that messing around while loading.
"i'll only say this one more time, get off my property."
Its a pitty that you did not showed much more of it. I am interested in the mechanism and in the range.
PS: Be careful with your fingers!! The string could rip one off!
That seems much more effective than the medieval - 20th century crossbows. 90 lb draw with the long draw length would be impressive to do ballistics testing to see how powerful it was.
To think the Greeks developed a crossbow that was powerful and quicker to load than a windlass crossbow.
Slingshot channel could invent the gym device that shoots fullauto
history IS bunkum.... and that crossbow IS brilliant!
This seems a lot like a crossbow you just operate and shoot from the hip. In which case is this like the earliest crossbow design in history?
It's a bit odd to ask but, is it sure they did not have a stock that could rotate and lock as a stock?
I think he mentioned there is just one diagram of it, and it's based on that.
Indeed, instinctive shooting.
no The Chinese had the earliest. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow
I read that Wiki article and it states that the first mention of a Chinese crossbow is from the 4th century BC and the first mention of Greek crossbows was late 5th century. I do believe 5th century BC is older than 4th century BC,
Isn't the TH-cam algorithm great, it thought that today I needed to see your video from 5 years ago! And it was right. I had heard of the "belly bow" before, but never seen one in use, so this was a treat.
I have one observation/thought on aiming. The fire rate seems a little too slow for massed artillery fire, so the "shoot from the hip" style of point down range and fire wouldn't greatly reduce the effectiveness of such a powerful bow. Though I have to say that from what looks like 20 meters, you were grouping those three shots pretty well. But if you could aim the bow reasonably well, then troop commanders at the rear of the opposing force might then find themselves in harms way. The ability to target the leadership of your enemy might then be worth the cost of such a powerful but slow firing bow.
My thought is that a U-shaped saddle block on the bottom of the bow at the rear would allow the bow to rest on your shoulder (sort of like you see a modern RPG launcher fired). This would allow the operator to simply aim by looking directly down the bolt/arrow. Alternatively a simple peg on the inside of the bow would provide a sight that could be set for say a 100 meters with skill providing the amount of depression/elevation for shorter and longer ranges (half a body length low for 50 meters, full body length high for 150 meters). And since they were skilled metalsmiths, you could even do something with a bronze rod perpendicular to the body of the bow to give sighting marks for different ranges.
Neat bit of work there building that.
It should be locked in place with a groove. Best way to do this is with a router. There are many ways to do it. It’s hard for me to explain because english isn’t my first language and I’m bad at explaining in text.
First time I'd heard of it.
Keep em coming ode lad : )
Came here because Joerg Sprave claimed to have one-upped the original design. Was not disappointed.
Really clever design, fun stuff.
'bowman at any size' thank you verrry much.
It’s like a crossbow but with longer draw length and lighter draw weight
Draw weight is not as important as length of the draw, as it provides a much longer time to influence and accelerate an arrow. Also a longer heavier arrow will have more retained energy. Thats why people commonly can take deer with a simple 35 lb. , basic longbow.
That's a very ingenious way of cocking the crossbow. Not the most practical, but surely ingenious. It looks like you made your stock a bit too long tho, if the part with no teeth close to the "gastric plate" was shorted or eliminated, you could have a shorter weapon over which it's easier to lean, so easier to put more weight on.
I think, that if that part of bow, where you lean to, is turnable. In other words, if it would be a turnable part, then you can turn in to vertical position (instead of fixed horizontal position) to make a bit better aim. Or what if that part is slightly below than the actual body of the bow, then it would be even better to aim with eye.
Hey Tod, please do a video comparing the speed of loading and shooting for one of each of the kinds of crossbows you have made, and please include a list of weights in the description.
this weapon cocking and loading process involves belly stocking. I think there is enough reason for weapon name. No hipfire needed!
Forgive my ignorance, but why would one not span it using your belly and then fire it with it resting higher up on the chest? It just seems that sighting such a device one would naturally want to get it as near eye level as possible. Or maybe it was a closer range melee weapon where "spray and pray" was first used at closer quarters? Or perhaps a defensive weapon from city walls?
Could also be used as a pogo stick.
Thank you , Tod ,
Joerg sent me ,
:-) .
Very cool, ,I wonder why the design wasn't more common?
Wow, someone finally have done it!
Amazing technology!! What if the belly bit could also rotate (and lock) to become a stock that you could put against your shoulder and aim down the bolt??
Now I understand why these became obsolete rather quickly.
Very interesting, I have never seen this design before.
Amazing what man can invent to help in war
I want to make a han Chinese crossbow but I don't have the skills or tools
Does this method of using your body weight to draw out the bow allow a man to use a bow with a greater draw weight than what he could use in the 'regular' fashion, i.e. pushing with one arm and pulling the bow string back with the other?
Could I trouble you for an elaboration? I don't understand what you mean by "draw" on the gastraphetes.
Thank you so much for the explanation, i'll check out the video link you sent me.
@@Verradonairun late reply, but Work = Force x Distance. A lower draw weight with a longer draw back (power stroke) can have a more " powerful" shot that a higher draw weight bow.
¡Felicitaciones, Señor armero! Su ejemplar de gastraphetes es hermoso y funcional. Yo estoy en mira de fabricar uno propio, y tomaré elementos del suyo para crearlo... Pero, tengo una pregunta ¿el arco que usted montó es compuesto?
The heavier you are the more powerful bow you can shoot! Why is this not more popular in the US?
Dammit take my like
Wow i knew this existed but i never imsgined how smszing they where !
At 90 pounds and with that draw length it has to reach more than 250 m. But it depends on the weight of the arrow I guess.
Makes you wonder if there was ever a variation that had a detachable rear handle that slipped on much like a windlass so it could be shot from the shoulder
Well it must have! I'm sure the inventor of this complex revolutionary design would have figured out a way to improve acurracy!
I just realized this thing is pretty much an ancient pogo stick lol
i remember reading somewhere saying that Syracuse was the first greek city state to use a cross bow
Hey Todd that looks great.
Haven't seen you post a video on youtube in a while so i'll take this opportunity to ask a few questions. How long do you reckon would it take to train someone in the use of a crossbow suited to battlefield use? What made Genoese crossbowmen so special they turn up everywhere from France to the Baltic?
And how accurate is one of those heavier crossbow in the 80-40 meter range?
***** Thanks for the answer, I already had a hunch there was enough training and skill involved to make it worthwhile to hire foreign troops.
At what range can you start targeting specific parts of the human body, say heads or thighs? One of the drawings of Paul Dolstein shows Swedish crossbowmen shooting and hitting those targets but the distance at which they hit those targets is not really clear.
www.denstoredanske.dk/@api/deki/files/11656/%3D36686173.jpg
I really wonder how crossbow accuracy differs from longbow and contemporary early handguns.
***** Is that accuracy attainable with a crossbow with more or less effort?
I heard more than a few claims that crossbows are more accurate than handbows. Is there any truth to it or just people looking at bow and crossbow accuracy at similar levels of training?
***** And what about distances closer and further than 40 yards?
Sorry if I am asking a lot.
I am curious to know in what aspects crossbows and longbows differ outside of the training time and fire rate which we so often hear about. Perhaps something to do a video on?
Regards,
Dushin
***** That's true and I've rarely read about a battle where the crossbowmen facing archers were not outnumbered by a fair bit.
Thanks for all the answers and carry on good sir.
accuracy has more to do with the person shooting & the quality of the weapon i would think than which of the two types of weapon BUT the less trained person will have a easier time shooting accurately with a crossbow, (it merely takes more time to be as accurate with a bow) , just talking from my own experiences.
Wot an interesting weapon. A cross between a bow and crossbow with a few elegant features tossed in. Not accurate perhaps unless very experienced.
Flaxen Saxon
I'm guessing accuracy isn't very important in target rich enviroments.
Now that is cool!
This bow is very interesting. Random thought. If the wooden piece in the middle were to slide, but not fire out when pulling the trigger, would that mess with the arrows flight?
It would probably affect the accuracy, and it would certainly waste some of the stored energy of the bow.
Reconstrucción de un Gastrafetes.
Amantes de armería clásica, unos tipos curiosos
Very cool.
Okay Tod, In light of your recent Instant Legolas experiences, do you have any new takes on this type of bow? Could the belly bow be magazine fed? Why couldn't this belly bow be shot from the shoulder? It would be a very quick way to span and fire a very heavy bow. It would not be as fast as the Instant Legolas but it would solve the unassisted draw weight limits it runs up against. In theory a two hundred pound man should be able to lean into a two hundred pound bow and cock it. If that was paired to a magazine and a mechanism to hold the bow at draw, you would have a devastating weapon from the battlements. This old video really made me think, I hope you read this.
They are OK, but I weight 85Kg and I can just load a 45Kg bow using this method, so not perhaps as you would imagine it. accuracy is quite good though with a little practice.
Roman artillery such as the ballistas and scorpions are torsion weapons that use a set of twisted sinew to provide power. These are tension weapons similar to bows/crossbows and are not their predecessors.
Ah, gotcha. In that case, yes, you are correct.
@@Intranetusa I have also seen what seem to be period diagrams of what could be called a "transitional" form of weapon, a ballista sized gastraphetes type weapon, mounted on a base, with a windlass at the back to draw back the slider and dog, but with am oversized tension bow instead of the more familiar torsion windings.
@@kevingooley9628 Are you referring to early medieval weapons or late Western Roman weapons? Can you let me know where you have seen these, as I am interested. Thanks
@@Intranetusa what little information that survives seems to indicate late Greek period, around 375 BCE or so. Sadly, like so much of that era, original works have been lost, so it's mostly Roman writers from a few hundred years later referring to a work, sort of if in a thousand years, instead of Thomas Jefferson's writings, all they had was high school history books.
They are referenced as Oxybeles, bolt thrower, and lithobolos, stone thrower. There is a reference no Charon of Magnesia calling a 9 foot long frame mounted gastraphetes a lithobolos, (windlass wound in description). Also some references by Diodorus Suculus (Roman, and I've likely mangled the name).
It seems like they only existed for a short time, and we're quickly supplanted by torsion powered weapons, which were much more powerful and compact that giant ass bows.
If anyone can find the citations I cannot, thanks.
Thanks I never quite got how these worked, I thought you just used your weight to keep it in place
I wonder what kind of armour that would destroy? Obviously leather wouldn't stand up to it, neither chain, but plate? Interesting.
Seems to be a bit of a faff loading the thing.
Probably used in a siege as opposed to against a charging army.
Very cool, could you add a rolling block/trigger to improve aim or does the ratchet system make that difficult?
Ahhh I understand where you coming from regarding authenticity ;]
Cool and helpful, thanks!
amazing design
Wouldn't want to load it the morning after a night on Newcastle Brown lol.
I suppose you could give fair warning by shouting "FRECKLES " !
That's looks massive!
Good stuff Tod, finally a bow for us lazy people!
so they invented "hipfire" ?
Awesome... thanks for uploading Tod, what sort of velocity would you estimate the bolt is attaining?
remarkable job. (not quite as much of a "wow" as the medieval ones, but amazing in entirely different ways)
As ever, I'm envious of the lucky git who gets to own it. :)
I feel this is good for loading ease but might break with ease.
The origin of "shoot from the hip."
If that's not an instinctive shot, what is?
And a bullseye too.
This is how japan should of weaponized Sumo wrestlers in times of war. in theory they could shoot up to 600 lb belly bows. It's ultimate range depends on how many wankosoba noodle bowls you can finish in one sitting maybe.
Dont know how much routine you could get on this but seems very slow to reload.
It's intention was probably towards siege, like heavy crossbows we're used. You could move up towards the enemy walls, and have a large standing shield infront of you, with a whole in it, then you simply aimed and rested the weapon on the whole, waited til you got a good aim att a soldier standing on the wall and fire. While in open battle it would be slow, but a siege that goes on for weeks, the reload is not an issue, that's why crossbows we're popular, you could send a bolt or arrow as soon as you saw someone peeking over the wall, while a bow you had to knock, draw and aim.
Imagine an elite strongman like Haftor or Brian Shaw getting one custom made to match their weight and power, stringing a bow like this. 400+ lb on weight alone, and if they could use straps attached to the ground it would be past 1500lb draw weight.
Mount it on support and i am sure you can aim it well
2:18 'mo like Compensating Bow.
this is so cool. todd, maybe you can do a video on all self-span types of crossbows? there's one from the middle ages, i forget its name - Loeffelholz MS ?
also a leondardo da vinci mechanism which you can view on youtube.
hey tod. great video as always. this might be a little off topic but... where can i buy those trowsers? is it possible to get them pre-stained?
Strong crossbow, but the dogs caught up with him anyway
I'm going to presume that, due to the crossbow body design, this bow still needs fletchings like a traditional crossbow, yes? As in I couldn't feasibly fire off a traditional arrow from it?
Either way, the design of this weapon is very clever and interesting to me. Probably my favorite one that I've seen you show off(although the munitions crossbow is lovely and the little metal one is really cool too. Ballestrina, or something like that, right?)