110 - Shelfington - Servo Motor Control Thoughts
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2024
- Welcome to Ian's N Gauge channel!
In a previous video I showed how I was going to install micro servo motors in order to switch points on Shelfington.
In this video I’m going to share my thoughts on the hardware I’m thinking about using to control the servos.
Thanks very much for watching.
Ian
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Links
Megapoints Controllers: megapointscontrollers.co.uk/
Arduino: www.arduino.cc/
ARCoMoRa: www.arcomora.com/
ESU: www.esu.eu/en/products/
YaMoRC: yamorc.de/
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Evening Ian - I just turn the knob on the controller and the train goes 😂😂😂. Highly entertaining as always 😊.
Good morning Euan! Haha! Just turn the knob? Well, yes, but after a lot of hard work wiring up a gazillion points to a control panel - a couple of times! :) All the best, Ian.
That was interesting Ian, and yet another example of just how much variety there is in our hobby. Whatever your interest and skill in the outside world can be catered for and applied in our hobby. Your layout really is going to be a thing to behold once you have it running. Stephen
Good morning Stephen and thank you! Yes, I've said it before, but I'll say it again, I love all of the different aspects to this hobby! There's always something interesting to look at, and when you get bored with one area, you don't have to look far to find another to pique your interest! I wish I were a bit further on with laying track, but I'm in no rush, and am really enjoying a hobby, which will hopefully take me well into my retirement! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian. I have a simple DC N gauge layout, I use magapoints controls for my fiddle/staging yard and have a duplicate panel for the yard at the station end of my layout.
I use micro switches for polarity change operating from one of the four arms on the servo motor. It was very interesting how you have gone through various ways of operating your railway. Thank you for an entertaining vlog.
Hi John! Thank you! I actually have a large fiddle yard planned for Shelfington, so I may end up using the Megapoints controller for that! Unfortunately, because of the way I'm mounting my servos in the foam baseboard, it would be difficult to also install micro switches, hence wanting to go down the RailCom route! It's a lot of fun building a model railway, the only problem being that there are serious distractions to the actual build process as you investigate various aspects of it! Glad you found the video entertaining, as I thoroughly enjoy making them! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, Crikey! I’m with Euan on this one, but honestly it was very interesting seeing what’s available and what you can actually do with a model railway if you’re that way inclined. Fortunately my code 80 points don’t need the frog polarity sorted so that’s good but I do need lots of wires still!!! 🙄
Garage project is well underway and dare I say nearing completion which will mean fingers crossed I can get back in the cabin!
Always interesting Ian, cheers for now, John
Good morning John! Haha! I think Euan is underplaying the amount of work he's done to get to the stage where he can "just turn a knob" and it all works! Lol! I've thoroughly enjoyed doing the research on these servo control methods, which has taken about 18 months, so condensing it into a 10 minute video doesn't seem to do the effort justice! Yeah, I'm still not convinced I'll need to power every frog - if any - but I'm wiring for that eventuality, just in case! If I don't mention it then I get loads of comments telling me that I MUST wire the frog! Heyho! My test track is still all code 80 streamline track with insulfrog points, and all of my locos navigate the points 95% of the time! But yeah, there are definitely going to be a LOT of wires! Glad the garage project is coming along, and I look forward to seeing all of the free space (and to how long it stays free) when its complete! All the best mate, Ian.
Very interesting Ian, It's great you are taking this journey into automation no doubt on behalf of many modelers. For myself I decided it was full automation or nothing as to have all these required modules but still no visual of the point setting made no sense. Hence i have zero automation but have a good visual of point setting as well as frog control without any modules. I respect those that have a vision of watching their layout run automatically whilst they enjoy a cup of tea. Very enjoyable Ian.
Thanks very much Chris! Hopefully some will find my investigations, experiments and usually blind muddling through of some use! The plan is to build in the ability to perform automation as I go along, but initially all points will be controlled via DCC commands, and visualisation of the point setting could come via JMRI or the Z21 app! Again, I haven't got everything completely thought through yet, but as longs as I've got the wiring installed along with the hardware I intend to use, then I can move things along quite nicely, and retrofit automation later! Thanks again! All the best, Ian.
Great video very informative and interesting thank you for sharing 👍
Thanks very much Clive, that's very kind of you to say! Thank you for watching! :) All the best, Ian.
Greetings Ian 👋 well that was a long and winding road 🤭 ESU are a top brand, so you shouldn't be left without support 🤞 looking forward to seeing it meet the tricky bit though 😁 Very best wishes from the Emerald Isle ☘️
Good morning Paul! Only 18 months to decide to use something that I heard about last week! Worth it!!! Yes, ESU seems to have a great reputation, so we'll see how I get on with their kit! Not sure when it'll meet The Tricky Bit - maybe next year sometime? Lol! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, great video, as you know I am using servos controlled by picaxe chips, with home written code. There were a few of your options that I hadn't come across so it was good to see other options.
I have found my standalone design of a numerical keypad and serial network connection to be pretty reliable.
Looking forward to more videos
All the best
Allan
Good morning Allan! Yes, I like the way you've gone about controlling your servos! I'm nowhere near as confident with the electronics side of things as I am with the programming side, otherwise I'd definitely have gone down one of the Arduino based routes! I really want to incorporate DCC and RailCom, but have no real clue where to begin! I fear I'd spend so much time on it that it would take even longer to get the track laid! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, on my N gauge layout I use servo controller kits from MERG which also have 2 sets of terminals that can be used for frog polarity and positional feedback.
Hi Nick! The MERG kits sound ideal, but I'm not confident that my soldering skills would do them justice! Cheers, Ian.
Hi Ian, I wasn't happy when Digikeijs was no more. I did manage however to buy most of the bits made by them for my small layout, but if something fails then there will be trouble! I liked Digikeijs as it was (in my opinion) pretty good cost wise. Since then I have done some research like you have, coming across several options for controlling servo motors. I kind of like the idea of going Arduino based as like you said it's cost effective and if something goes bang then it shouldn't be that much of an issue fixing it. Before the Digikeijs I used the original DCC++ system and that worked well but for automation like you said you would need to add on bits and pieces to it. I would really like to go down the Arduino path but of course that's a lot more work than a commercially purchased system.
Hi John! Yeah, I was sad when Digikeijs went under, as their products seemed to offer excellent functionality for a very reasonable price! YAMORC have risen from the ashes of Digikeijs, but they've been quite slow to bring products to market since the shortage of chips caused by Covid! Hopefully they'll improve their output soon! As I said in the video, I'd love to DIY my own system, using Arduinos, but that seems like it would be so much work! Maybe when I get everything up and running using proprietary stuff, I'll start experimenting with the Arduino side of things! Obviously, getting some track laid would be nice too! :) All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian
I followed more or less the same path except the Megapoint solution.
Having quality issues with DR4024s and reverse polarity modules many of which burned out, I purchased ESU Switchpilot Servo modules. These are high quality products, but for me they have a major flaw. If I want to activate my servos from a mimic panel, I must use two buttons per servo. 1 per direction of rotation.
So I thought again and I finally chose to use an independent accessory bus and I therefore chose to install a solution for controlling my accessories via MERG modules.
As, in the meantime, my DR5000 control unit also burned out, I also switched my DCC command station to a MERG control unit.
MERG modules are fully recognized and integrated into JMRI (and Rocrail). For Itrain, I don't know.
On the other hand, what is certain is that it is less easy to configure than a commercial solution. And you have to know how to use a soldering iron.
The learning curve is steep
I don't advertise Merg, but building the hardware and configuring the software for my MERG modules is also part of my modeling pleasures.
Hi! I've also had problems with my DR5000, and the WiFi module has failed, hence I'm temporarily using an NCE Powercab at the moment! If the DR4024's are unreliable, maybe I'll not use the one I have after all! I noticed that the SwitchPilot had inputs for both open and closed routes, but figured it could be wired to operate on a single switch, is that not the case? I've purposefully not looked at the MERG stuff, as I'm by no means confident when it comes to soldering electronics, so I'm sure that whatever I built would only be as reliable as my soldering skills! All the best, Ian.
An interesting study Ian. I have a few innaccessible points DCC controlled using peco surface mounted motors and DCC Concepts accessory decoders through the Z21. I can switch the points on the ipad that controls the trains. These decoders are ok, although on a board of 8 decoders, have had 3 or 4 fail. DCC Concepts did replace them for me, but still no idea why they failed, as all wiring is done with power off.
Thanks very much John! I've actually got a couple of DCC Concepts accessory decoders for controlling Solenoid motors! I also have a few Rails Connect decoders, that are made by DCC Concepts - two of which failed while I was testing them! Not sure why either! My plan is to control all of my points via DCC, then I can choose how to switch them later, either using a hand controller, an iPad running the Z21 app, a retrofitted panel, or JMRI / iTrain! There's still a long journey ahead... I may even paint the blue foam a different colour at some point! :) All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, far from being bored by it - I found this really interesting - there are so many options! A lot of them cost a lot though. I was aware of DCC Ex for Arduino-based DCC control, but don't remember hearing about DCC Next before. It will be interesting to see how you eventually bring it all together, which I've no doubt will be another journey of options and learning 🙂
Good morning Jonathan! Thank you! I've looked at DCC Ex a few times, but last time I looked it didn't work with WiFi throttles, and controlling trains on a phone / tablet just doesn't appeal to me! I like the tactile experience of an actual throttle in my hand! The DCCNext stuff is very good, and I'd recommend taking a look at it! You can buy the ready made units, like I did, but if you like building your electronics, most of the AcRoMoRa stuff is sold in kit form, so you can build it yourself! I'd still really like to go down the Arduino route to save a bit of money, but it would take a lot of time to create a DIY solution, even if I based it on DCCNext, and I'm already way behind laying track for Shelfington! Oh well! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge I'm very much the same for wanting physical throttles - I had been wondering about using JMRI with a Raspberry Pi because I've got the wifi module for my Gaugemaster system, so could have physical controls to the Pi which would then connect over TCP/IP to send the JMRI commands, but I'll definitely be looking into DCCNext now that you've made me aware of it - thanks!
@@endoorrailway - Whether you decide to go with JMRI and the Raspberry Pi (bit of poetry for you there) or the DCCNext system, I await your experiments with much anticipation! :)
Hi Ian. A very nice and interesting overview. Thanks for sharing. There is one clarification which I hope will be helpful. Automation software, such as iTrain, typically does not NEED to determine the position of the points. Instead, it works the principle that the point will have successfully switched after a certain time. So, position monitoring is not required, and most automation users do not bother with it. However, if you want the added security of knowing that the point has achieved its switched position, that is also possible but is typically implemented mechanically using micro switches located on the servo bracket (I highly recommend the range of Dingo Servo Mounts).
Railcom is a commonly used and available feature, but the specific Railcom ‘position’ function that you mentioned, and which is available on the ESU switch decoder, is something that is very different and rarely seen on switch decoders (ESU is the only manufacturer that I am aware of that are implementing it). As I understand it, this feature can precisely monitor the switch position throughout the switching operation, and not just to see if the point has reached the switched position. So, it is a continual, linear measurement which is not required by automation software.
So, I hope this helps simplify your switch decoder choice, and will save you some money.
Personally, I have opted for a German-based system called ‘BiDiB’ which has a vast range of modules covering virtually every application (search for ‘FichtelBahn’ for more information. It’s open source and fully supported in iTrain. And can be purchased in kit form or ‘ready to go’. But I would only recommend BiDiB if you like to tinker with stuff, are comfortable with using software, and have a basic understanding of electronics. For my requirements, it offered the most cost effective solution for the features I needed.
Another system worth looing at is LODI - talk to James Hudson at DCC Train Automation.
Hi Bob! Thank you so much for your insightful comment! Unfortunately, because of the way I'm mounting my servos in the foam, I don't want to overcomplicate matters with micro switches, which was why I was looking for a "software" based method of determining the servo position, and RailCom seemed like the easiest way of doing this! I quite like that the ESU hardware allows you to interrogate the position DURING the servo sweep, but now fully understand that it isn't necessary for the automation software to know this! The reason I thought it would need to know the point position was for display purposes, rather than switching purposes! How does the automation software determine what to draw on the screen if it doesn't know the point position? I'll take a look at the BiDiB system, but fear it may be a another rabbit hole for me to disappear into! :) I looked at the LoDi system a while ago, but will take another look based on your recommendation! Thanks again! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge the automation software only displays two positions, straight or thrown. It doesn't display a real-time image of the entire switching action.
@@bobfuller - Yeah, I understand that, but how does it know to show straight or thrown? Obviously iTrain has to know the point position, so where does it get that information from? Cheers, Ian.
@@iansngauge if it's not correct, you either swap the wiring or swap the outputs in the software.
@@bobfuller - Ah, okay! So the software doesn't actually monitor the position of the point at all? It just assumes that when a command is issued to switch the direction of the point, it just works? Coming from a software engineering background, and working on real world software / hardware interfaces, I'd assumed that there'd be some sort of check that after a command had been issued, it was carried out correctly! Obviously this isn't a crucial aspect of model railways! Thanks very much for the clarification! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian sorry for the delay with the comment watched it 4 days ago, very interesting all the different things to make a train go. I did use megapoints equipment very please with it, but as you know I'm using Lodi and itrains now, when I did use megapoints I use auto frogs and they work superb and they work if you use the point manually. I also use male and female joiners so if one broke I could just replace it but in all fairness I only had one break. Hope your well. Colin
No problem Colin! I'm always watching on the TV, meaning to comment later, then forgetting! Yes, the Megapoints stuff does appeal, especially their new System 2 stuff, but works out quite expensive! I need to take another look at the Lodi stuff! I'm not sure how auto-frogs work with Unifrog points, so I'll have to look into that! I also read somewhere that they detect a momentary short before switching polarity, and that the short circuit can cause problems for some DCC command stations! Which ones were you using? All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge NCE Powercab first but I didn't like it for the sounds locos, Then went to piko which was wifi and more power love it. The auto frogs work with both, we did have unifrog points to be honest I can't remember if they had them on, but if there was a wire underneath the point from the frog area then we put a autofrog on. If you haven't tried or seen a autofrog, my email is in the information on TH-cam send me a email with your address and I'll send you one to try and if you like them I think there about £20 for 3 I'm going to sell them and because it's you I'll do 6 for £20.
@@collinsngauge5493 - Thanks very much Colin! That's very kind of you! I've sent you an email! 😃
that digikeys servo controller could likely very easily drive the Arduino relay modules, +/- feeds and a signal wire
Thanks for the idea! I may look into that at a later date, or repurpose the Digikeijs controller to control something like crossing gates, or a barrier or something similar! Cheers, Ian.
Hi Ian, this is certainly an interesting journey. It looks to me like you have all the servo options covered, to control the frog should also be quite easy, instead of using a microswitch you could use a solenoid point switcher and wire it to a latched relay which could be used to control the frog polarity. I assume you could use the same dcc id on both servo and solenoid to control both at the same time. My thoughts really turn to Railcom I can understand it being used on the blocks in automation, but do you really need it to feedback from the points as well? ESU are a top company but if they are the only ones making a Railcom point controller is it really needed, knowing how many automated layouts there must be around the world. I suppose the only way to settle it is to look at the software manual for automation and see what pros and cons it has to use Railcom on points. Just a few thoughts 😁 p.s Bob fuller who has commented is like a God when it comes to Itrain LOL! All the best Tony.
Hi Tony! It's definitely been an interesting and sometimes confusing journey! Yeah, controlling the frog should be quite simple, should I decide its required! I'm still not completely convinced I need it for all of the points, if any! Being a software engineer, if I were writing something like JMRI or iTrain then I'd want to know the position of the point so I could draw it on the screen! I'd also like to know that if I issued a command to switch the point, that the hardware actually switched it, otherwise the software and hardware would be out of sync! Maybe such trivialities aren't considered with current systems, but I'll definitely do more research to see how it could or should work! Cheers, Ian.
Hi Ian. "It's all very confusing, really" (C) The Goon Show (the Last Goon show of All[?]).
Hi Paul! Gotta love a Spike Milligan quote! :) Cheers, Ian.
Hi Ian. I was very impressed by the thorough investigation you have documented.
I am a DC patron and just enjoy switching routes and trains manually.
A large number of my point motors were and still are still twin coil machines.
I invented and developed some motor driven point motors and have used these on my main lines and crossovers and as they have worn and failed over the years I have developed the servo controllers I now use to replace any of the point controls that give me trouble.
I have ventured into making my own handheld controllers for the trains and making my own servo controllers for switching my points.
The video that describes my servo controllers can be seen here. Note the part about servo control starts around 4.30 Minutes in. th-cam.com/video/g2ch4uhWZYs/w-d-xo.html
Thanks Patrick! Well done for making your own servo controllers, and producing a very informative video about them! I'm pretty sure I don't have the skills for implementing the electronics involved, but it was interesting to see how you made the linkages between the point tie bars and the servo horns using paper clips and bicycle spokes! Ingenious! All the best, Ian.
Ian really interesting voyage of discovery. Interested to see no DCC Concepts or Gaugemaster which is what I use but maybe these don't work for servos?
Hi! I've nothing against DCC Concepts or Gaugemaster, but I don't have a bottomless pit of cash available to me, so I can't try everything unfortunately! Maybe when I win the lottery! :) All the best, Ian.