If you are an Anglican in Sydney who shares my desire for change and want to connect with other Anglicans who want the same, send me an email or a DM on my socials and we can make it happen. I especially direct this to young Anglicans, but not only to them.
As a Roman Catholic, I am very refreshed to hear your critique. In the Catholic Archdiocese of Sydney, they are fostering the Liturgical Spirit (alongside other strange ones I'll admit), and the result is increase in Baptisms, Church Attendance and Attendance of Archdiocese events, such as the March for Life or Corpus Christi Processiin. It's the perfect case study to prove your point that the downplaying of the Liturgical Life, principally found with the Eucharist, for preaching of the Gospel kills attendance and devotion. Worse, it removes the Hope of the Gospel realised. We don't simply preach Jesus Crucified and risen and wait till death to see this to be true, but we see it come to us after the Preaching, in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. This is what Sunday Gathering was in Christianity for its entire history. Saint Maximus the Confessor goes further than simply to say that actions are metaphorical, but are truly real, expressing and demonstrating the Mystical interplay of the Soul with God in a manner not merely metaphorical, but that which the entire creation reveals. This idea wasn't just made up by him, but is implicit within the Church's expression of Liturgical worship. It was a part of the Disciplina Arcani, seen somewhat as early as Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, and gives us a retroactive understanding of the proper context of works such as 1st Corinthians, Hebrews and Revelation. It breaks my heart to see my Protestant brothers and sisters tear that down. Even if I believe it's in schism, there is a presence of God there, one which is trampled on for the Wisdom of Man in how he wishes to pray, how he wishes to read scripture. At that point, you very much are right: why bother going. Which is why pray for the success of this appeal This is partly, along with many other reasons, why I am Roman Catholic: "By the fruits you shall know them." The Liturgy, for all it's abuse during the recent Reforms, has still endured more or less in Mystical Function, yet upheld more or less Dogmatic unity.
Great video. Thank you! I have seen that St Andrews Cathedral occasionally does offer a communion service from the 1662 Book of Common Prayer with cassock and surplice, and that they also occasionally offer a choral evensong. If more churches in the diocese were simply encouraged to do these things, and if the cathedral would do them on a regular basis, I think that would go along way towards shoring up the norms of Anglican liturgical identity, and also provide a place for evangelicals to go who are seeking liturgy, sacrament, and beauty. There also must be (throughout Anglicanism everywhere) a renewed commitment to the 39 articles, including the Sacramental theology contained therein. I wonder if leaders in Sydney might allow or encourage the use of the ACNA 2019 prayer book as an alternative to the extremely minimal “Common Prayer” you were discussing?
The cathedral runs a fully-robed BCP service, three times a week. Sunday 8.30am is always BCP communion, and once a month is full choral communion. The (robed) Cathedral choir sing full BCP evensong with short sermon twice a week, Monday and Thursdays at 5.15pm. You’re very welcome.
Certainly the Diocese of my childhood no longer exists. My parish was typical of Sydney in those days - 8.00am Holy Communion (North End but followed the BCP exactly and clergy robed), 10.00am Morning Prayer (Clergy robed, BCP exactly, sung the Canticles to Anglican Chant, didn't have a choir so the rest was said) 7.15pm Evening Prayer (similar pattern to Morning Prayer but more youth involvement). It was low church but it was still proudly Anglican. I don't want to return to the BCP but now if I lived in Sydney I would need to travel across many suburbs to a attend a normal Anglican parish. Sadly Moore College is producing clergy that throw the baby out with the bathwater.
A few people here have asked about Christ Church St Laurence, near Central. I have been a parishioner since my return to the faith in 2019, and can say it is the most wonderful, reverential Anglo-Catholic church. In the Anglican tradition, it is welcoming and friendly. Our church is growing, not declining, with more than 400 members.About ten people are going to be confirmed next Sunday by Bishop Stead. Open every weekday, Mass celebrated daily. Of course Solemn High Mass at 10.30am on Sundays is the big service.
I’m finding myself drawn to Orthodox Christianity after being a Buddhist most of my adult life, however, I am not Eastern European so I feel Orthodoxy might be too culturally alien. I only just learned about Anglo-Catholicism about a week ago and I’m super interested and intending to attend St Laurence’s soon. One thing I’m nervous about is whether or not Anglo-Catholics show due reverence to Mary and the Saints - I am finding they are an important gateway to Christ, especially for women. Any church that fails to acknowledge their important role will (I suspect) inevitably fall into decline because the Trinity can be very intimidating for a lot of people (me included). One of the reasons I left Anglicanism in my youth was because of the absolute barren absence of the holy feminine and the revolting pseudo-iconoclasm of the churches I attended. I am hoping that Anglicanism is in fact a broad church that can move past the misogyny (omitting Mary and female saints) of the hyper-Protestant past - but maybe I’m hoping too much and Orthodoxy will be my new spiritual home …
Hey mate I’m a former anglo-Catholic from Brisbane Australia. I used to worship at all saints Wickham terrace (until we got a priest who supported gay rights, women clergy, abortion etc) Thank you for sharing your perspectives on Sydney Anglicanism. I’m very sad to hear Sydney Anglicanism is going down this path. :( This is why Buddhism and Islam and Taoism are growing….there is no awe in modern worship. No awe of God!
As a five-point Calvinist Reformed and evangelical Anglican I do agree that Sydney Diocese has lost a good deal of what is good in Anglican identity. I sometimes wonder how many regular churchgoing Anglicans in Sydney have ever heard of the Te Deum, for example. And I write as one who has little time for liberalism or Anglo-Catholicism but I love 1662 and faithful updates of it.
The Diocese of Sydney has systematically degraded,even to the point of telling parishioners not to attend chuches in other Dioceses not in line with the Diocese of Sydney. So many people have been alienated by the Diocese because they fail to meet the alienating and selective moral purity
Paul, some have suggested the problem goes back to the 1960s. There was a large influx of new Christians as a result of the 1959 Billy Graham Crusade in Sydney. This resulted in a large number of men applying for ordination being trained at Moore College. The trouble was that those in charge at Moore College did not recognise that when they made disparaging remarks about Anglicanism they were no longer speaking to cradle Anglicans who had a love for mother church but to totally unchurched new converts. This mistake was pointed out to me by a person whose family were part of the Sydney dynasty who said: "They didn't realise that these new ordinands were no longer 'sons of the rectory.'" This bred a new batch of clergy who never were Anglicans and their training only encouraged them to turn their backs on the diocese's Anglican (albeit low church/evangelical) heritage.
I've been diving into the books on the diocese' liturgical/theological changes, and the Crusades have come up a couple of times. Do you have sourced I can chase up that attest to this phenomenon that you described?
@@TheOtherPaul I can't really add more information to the conversation I had as it was purely a private observation by a son of one of the academic staff at Moore College at that time. What has also changed as a result of clergy training in the Diocese is that "services" are replaced with "gatherings". With this comes the teaching that worship is an Old Testament concept and that Christians only gather for fellowship and teaching. (I heard this from a senior priest who is now a bishop)
I once heard a Philip Jensen (a central figure in Syndey Angliucan) sermon in person, where he talked about Billy Graham bringing him (and his brother I think?) to the faith. So I can attest to this from at least this important figure in Sydney Anglicanism.
I've read more of the literature on the history of Sydney Anglicanism and I can confirm that the majority of the literature cites the Graham Crusade as the catalyst to the hyper-Evangelicalism in Sydney.
I address these issues, with particular reference to the recovery of the BCP,, in my forthcoming book, Language in the Liturgy, Past, Present, Future (James Clarke, Cambridge), due for publication in January, 2025.
It must be odd for those outside Australia to think that an entire Diocese can be functionally Baptist, but it's a reality that those of us in Sydney live through
St Alban's Anglican Church in Leura Blue Mountains is a fantastic church community. Great biblical teaching enveloped in a beautiful and simple Anglican liturgy. The 8am follows the prayer book structure and 10am is more 'family friendly ' in that there's a kids church, but still structured around a wonderful and meaningful liturgy. Come up for some crisp mountain air and some true joy in hearing the word.
- remove welcome to country - restore the traditional 1662 liturgy - restore the communion table to its place of honour in the sanctuary. - restore sacred music - preach the gospel…. God will bring people to the church. People keep looking for the ‘right formula’ but there is none…..the gospel will bring people or alienate them as God wills.
South African here, I spent a few years in a South African Anglican denomination which has many close connections to Sydney Anglican. They seem to be taking a lot of their cues from Sydney Anglican, and have also lost a lot of their liturgical and ecclesiastical distinctives. Many of these churches, while calling themselves Anglican, are genuinely indistinguishable from Nondenominational churches. Very sad.
Paul I have the same ideas in the diocese. I am currently in conversation with my curate at the parish I am at now. If you would like to chat further (as I would very much like to) please do. I might email you later but good to know we are of the same mind about this topic.
Reflecting on this, I've found that the problem is not that Sydney is Evangelical. There are jurisdictions both within Australia and overseas that are theologically Evangelical yet retain high liturgy and worship. The term that I prefer to use to describe Sydney is "hyper-Evangelicalism" because the superlative highlights how they have departed from the traditionally Evangelical Anglican character for a form of contemporary worship in the name of "evangelism".
Thank you. I remember the first day i knelt at the altar rail in an Anglo catholic parish to recieve our Lord and knew i had come home. Looking forward to your next topic
Anglo Catholic here...FWIW I have long believed that anglican evangelicals would lose nothing, and gain much from embracing a liturgical ethos. In the very Conservative Missouri Synod Lutheran church, they have Chasubles, weekly eucharist, chanting, and moderate iconography......these guys are clearly and proudly protestant....yet Sydney Anglicans would probably regard them as papists!
I have heard good things about your parish, only wished they were more Anglican liturgically instead of using the Roman Missal! Also, if you're a young person looking for a community of other young trad Aussie Anglicans, please reply!
This is a very interesting episode (I live in Perth). I was Evangelical, then converted to Roman Catholicism, was there for over tens years, before abandoning denominations altogether and am now trying to figure out what it might mean to be a Layman in a type of hermit vocation (hermit in that I can't find a local congregation that 'fits the bill'), a forced hermit-ish.
Christ Church St Laurence near central and St James King Street are both highly liturgical with incense, an altar, vestments, choir, confession, icons, and they observe the catholic liturgical calendar etc etc. they’d be considered Anglo catholic. They even do Ash Wednesday !!
@@mitchmclean5435 do they ? How so, genuinely asking because I had been wanting to attend for sometime. I know they very occasionally have a female priest ordained in another diocese occasionally preach but other than that I haven’t gathered anything to indicate them being too liberal. Would be interested to know. Cheers
@@MichaelLancuba right I didn’t know that. Liberal influence is definitely creeping its way into the Anglo catholic tradition in Sydney, I’ve seen Anglican churches with LGBTQ flags at the front “welcoming people of any sexual orientation” and having more female priests ordained in other jurisdictions preach despite Sydney’s rule against ordaining women (seems like they’re trying to test the waters) I imagine it’s only a matter of time until Sydney ends up like the other dioceses in Australia
Thanks for this video. I’m in Sydney also and attend a local Anglican Church with my young family. I have found that though there is a basically generic evangelical message being presented, it is certainly in need of a more robust sacramentology, liturgy, and intellectual retrieval of classic Protestant theology. Although, I was once told by a senior Presbyterian minister in a Reformed church that we used to attend that Sydney is a bastion for generic evangelicalism, focused on largely practical teaching and that the spirituality is usually at a low level in most places. Having attended numerous Baptist, Presbyterian, continental Reformed, and Lutheran churches, I have found this to be true. Confessionalism is practically dead, even in churches that have a paper confessional allegiance to some historic Protestant document. Possessing a theological education and also teaching religious studies in the university, I have found all this to be quite discouraging. My reading of philosophy also testifies to the fact that the widespread renewal of “spirituality” over religion is symptomatic of a society that no longer has a cohesive guiding “mythos” to give meaning to people’s lives and so there is a ransacking of foreign cultures and religions from the East in order to fill people’s innate religious needs. I feel some of these tensions myself when I look at the indistinguishable secularity and non-sacral reality of the contemporary Church compared to what I have found teaching courses on various world mysticisms. My heart and intellect crave for more than what is offered in the local church. So I live in books, a poor substitute of course, and continue to attend for the sake of my young children. But I’m fairly disinterested because I just don’t see an intellectual and spiritual ethos being cultivated. I guess I have turned into a social Christian in practice, as unfortunate as that admission is.
A couple of comments from a Catholic here: I appreciate much of what you say, and I think that you are on the right track. When we worship, we enter in to the heavenly feast, we are present again at the Last Supper, and at Calvary. The hairs on our neck should stand up. The move away from the numinous in worship (which is a Catholic problem, as well as a Protestant one) is very much a convergence with the rejection of authority, truth, and beauty of twentieth century modernity. It is not really contemporary, which is why young adults are questioning the approach. In Catholic circles, it is the elderly who are attached to bad choruses and relaxed liturgy, along with (all too often) a deracinated theological worldview. The young women wear mantillas, and their husbands are looking after baby number five. This is not to be Pollyanna-ish, as there has been a distressing contraction in attendance, but the young who attend want the Faith, not a social experience. Wise clergy encourage this, even if they do not completely understand it. I wonder if the old Anglican practice of having Morning Prayer as the primary Sunday service might be a bridge between where you are now and where you need to go? An emphasis on preaching, but reverent and deep in your tradition? Oh, and a small thing: I am Catholic, not Romish. I understand that you see catholicity differently from me, but you do come across as unintentionally rude when you use that language. Blessings.
'Romish' may refer to the fact that the bishop of Rome is the bishop to all Roman Catholics. This term may change naturally once you guys have a pope who is not the Bishop of Rome. I guess the proper term is Papism since it highlights the uttermost north of the hierarchy. This can be compared to the non-papist churches that reject the notion of Papal Infallibility.
Sydney Anglicans the Anglo-catholic churches are the best of the best. I was an Anglican that went Roman Catholic and the Roman Catholic churches are so gross the Novus ordo is like a Lutheran service. And your whole faith is pope centred instead of Jesus centred. High church Anglicanism in Sydney is thriving
Hi Luke, I hope you don't mind me engaging (very briefly) with your comment. I would suggest to you that Anglo-Catholic churches and High Church Anglican services are not one in the same. 🙂
@@RevJoshuaBovis that's obvious. But you will find Anglo-catholics in high church settings. Anglicanism is a mix, no 2 people are the same in Anglicanism. Often a priest will identify as Anglo-catholic but will do public masses that appeal to more protestant leaning congregations and vice versa. Anglo-catholicism is not a separate sect of Anglicanism. And more importantly Anglo-catholicism isn't a corporate scream of begging for the Roman authorities to accept us.
@@Luke_19951 My misunderstanding. I did not think you made it obvious in your comment that's all. I wasn't critiquing Anglo-catholicism in my reply to you.
Cheers for the video - the first of yours I've watched! Very timely for me. I have a Presbyterian background and the current climate is very similar to the Sydney Anglican climate. I could nearly copy and paste your concerns to the Presbyterian church! There seems to be very little respect for our distinctives and even less regard for learning church history. The appeal to the lowest common denominator is going to leave churches without an identity.
Note: the Anglican Diocese of Sydney is never referred to as an Archdiocese. None of the Anglican dioceses in Australia are referred to as Archdioceses. Just Dioceses.
Hey Paul, Thanks for the video, I'm interested in checking out a traditional Anglican service as you have described. What church would you recommend in the Wollongong region? If not, were could I go to visit a more traditional church?
I see "lex orendi, lex credendi" as prayer and liturgy *shaping* belief, rather than prayer and liturgy reflecting belief, which is the opposite. In other words, if we pray with reverence, we will believe with reverence, and so on. A life of (liturgical) prayer will shape your life and belief -- that is what the monastic movement found when they fled into the desert from terrible persecution. If you want to change your life, change your prayer life: if you (say) prayed the 1662 Common Prayer services of Morning and Evening Prayer *daily*, together with all the listed psalms (quite a load), it will affect you -- it will fill your mind with the psalms, the prayer book of the church. I actually use an older liturgy, which has more hours of prayer and more variation, but just as many psalms. It slowly seeps into you.
I agree with this other perspective of the rule. It really is a feedback loop; liturgy reflects/informs our faith, which in turn reflects/informs our prayer, on and on and on.
First, I think the video you are referencing highly exegereted the problem. Numbers may be down, but that's a much wider phenomenon in the Western world. Sydney is fairly stable in comparison, and they should be grateful! And it is precisely because of what you are criticizing them for. The same is true in the Church of England. The only churches that are growing here are evangelical low-church churches. There's a recent report that showed that among the top 20 churches with the highest number of young people in the church of England, 19 are evangelical, either charismatic or Sydney style reformed. And about young people going traditional, I think it's a passing online trend that'll pass away.
This was nothing like what I was expecting. This seems like a very long way of saying you like things a particular way - an idea I have sympathy with. These traditional Anglican churches you’re searching for are closing. Folks are put off by the kind of traditionalism you’re understandably fond of. I’m a lifelong Anglican and find the modern church (mostly) more appealing. That doesn’t make me right and you wrong but the traditions you’re keen on feel more like a preference of reverential worship rather than actual doctrine.
Genuine question - how well are Sydney Anglican churches engaging with and discipling non-Anglo Australians? Do traditions help or hinder? My hunch is a more reverent worship would help, in combination with a missional mindset.
There's been a fairly strong outreach of evangelism towards the Chinese and Korean population. A lot of the younger Korean population are either non-religious or come from Presbyterian families. Likewise, it's also beginning to grow among Indian and Nepalese people. The traditions help and hinder depending on the person, but a lot of it comes down to how the individual actually understands Christianity. I recall a conversation with an Indian convert who struggled to evangelise to his community because Hinduism extends both culturally and socially in the respect that faith is a literal familial identity and community and rejecting Hinduism is rejecting that. Hasn't helped that Christianity is often viewed as a western colonial influence rather than a universal faith. So yeah, engagement with non-Anglos has been really good compared to the immediate Anglo population though I do not know the state of Anglicanism outside of Sydney. I do agree with Paul's calling to the emphasis on the sacraments and to dwell more on the mystery with high liturgy, but I would still caution that poor leadership has created a nominal irreverent Christian population in the UK which eroded itself with liberalism even operating under high liturgy. Sydney Anglicans have been conservative in that regard to the point where erroneous liberal Anglican churches have argued with Kanishka over topics such as gay marriage and ordination of women. So while I do wish for high liturgical services to return as a norm, I don't think they're strictly the solution either and not in the "step in the right direction" sort of way either. The problem runs tangential to both.
@@k-reb9687 this is a very helpful reflection. I'm seeing similar trends in the Diocese where I minister. Liberalism has been a poison, and I think that there needs to be a mix of service styles to suit the context, and yet remain firm in Biblical convictions.
@@RichoBCV I do agree my brother. I recall being corrected a while ago, admittedly to my ignorance, that Anglicanism was the middle road between reformed and Lutheranism, not reformed and Roman Catholicism. Hence, there is that spectrum we walk whereby we ought to remember who we are and never end up too far to one side so as we end up becoming indistinguishable from them lest we end up offering the laity nothing that they could find elsewhere.
Could the suburb in which the parish located affect the way the style of worship as well? I attend one such church whose suburb is one of the most liberal and progressive you could imagine in the whole of Sydney, and the most "traditional" service on the morning is pretty much as you described - half contemporary and half traditional. I get the feeling that these Sydney Anglican churches are in a state of unstable equilibrium.
What you've described in Sydney is not unique to Sydney. I am from Melbourne as you know, and I'm not Anglican. However, that style of worship and doing church in general is something that is almost synonymous with being an Australian evangelical. My former church was pretty much exactly as you described. It wasn't pentecostal (like the church I went to before that), but it wasn't liturgical, or even traditionally low church. I'm at a Reformed congregation now, a tradition that is not well known for being liturgical (due to things like the RPW), but there is a clear difference between worship where I'm at right now, and what it was like before hand. There is no mini band with an acoustic guitar, hand drum and microphone, but a pianist and psalter-hymn (yes Psalm singing, something lost in today's churches) books in pews. While the preaching of the Word is still central, the sermon is not pushed down to the lowest common denominator. There is active use of using Reformed catechisms to teach the laity about the faith. The sacraments, while not being treated like Rome does, or even high church Anglicanism, is still given more respect than in evangelicalism, with it being recognised as a means of grace. I don't think this is a low church versus high church issue per say. You can have critiques of both, and maybe connect historic debates to what we have today. But more importantly, what I'm getting at here, is that what is seen in Australian evangelicalism is totally novel to pretty much all historic Christian traditions, even Baptists one could argue! I think this is a pan-denominational issue within Australian Protestant Christianity, not just Anglicanism (and I'm not saying of course that you're suggesting this Paul, but I am writing this comment as well for other readers).
Hi Paul, I’m sympathetic to many of your points. But this video doesn’t work well as a response to the video on The Pastors Heart. While there is a significant minority of young men who do seek the kind of worship experience you describe, this is still a definite minority. Parts of the online Christian world can make it seem like everyone is just flocking away from evangelical and Pentecostal churches towards Rome, EO & high Anglicanism but this is much more pronounced online than offline. Offline evangelical & pentecostal churches are growing and holding their own much better than high church traditions. If you want to diocese to grow then you probably have a point that the diocese should be able to point people to a couple of traditional style parishes, but to draw the whole diocese in that direction would be a disaster.
Thanks for the pushback Ryan. On the first point, I'm certainly aware that this traditional movement is, numbers wise, a minority, yet a fast growing one, which I don't think anyone can deny. I reflect this in my initial points about how the diocese is overall on the decline due to lack of theological formation and appreciation for our heritage; it's precisely because so many people are not instilled with these principles that they have a relatively thin motivation to remain in the Sydney Diocese, and so can be persuaded to leave by more things than a traditionally-minded Christian in a more liturgical parish would. That most people are not "trad" (to put it crudely) while yet many young people are increasingly becoming "trad" are concurrent realities. On the growing numbers in certain evangelical and Pentecostal churches, I'm aware of this, having been at Hillsong for over a decade (which, being Pentecostal, was/is in the fastest growing tradition in Australia). However, my own first-hand knowledge in the mother church made clear that the numbers were essentially enabled by Hillsong's model of extremely stripped down Christianity, extreme contemporisation in music, and extreme marketisation. As such, it and other Pentecostal denominations have had an easy time making quick converts, but at the expense of severely lacking theological formation, such that one can find stories of Pentecostals leaving Pente churches (including myself and numerous other people I know) for more reverent, traditional ones, or, God forbid, completely apostatising. That is to say, it's a good short-term strategy, but disastrous long-term. By contrast, we know from over two millennia of experience that traditional Christian thought and liturgy is conducive to an enduring faith in a people.
The ACNA is not nearly as bad but there are some pretty cringe parishes and diocese. I believe that some of bishops are moving to address some of that so the geographic diocese can form.
Would you make a video specifically on the role of the priest in Anglicanism because that is one thing along most things you mentioned, I’ve noticed in my American Anglican parish. It’s almost like our priest doesn’t want to be called father. Vestments are for special days like Christmas/ Easter… I know our clergy wants to pursue humility but how can this be done without getting rid of some important traditional elements of priesthood?
@@CYC_JP I made this mistake too for a while, there is a distinction. Neo-Calvinism is a tradition promoted by Bavinck and Kuyper, whereas New Calvinism is the movement including men like MacArthur, Piper etc.
Maybe I'm being too negative, but I think you are very critical of other traditions. It's also quite rich to have just joined Anglicanism and then be complaining publicly about "our traditions". That said, some of your points are good ones. That video you are responding to is just talking heads with no idea what to do. That's why they are so vaugue. I like your comments on how worship and church gatherings are conducted, it often does lack a seriousness. I think there is room for multiple approaches, and I've seen that done successfully before. Regardless, I think you miss the point, and by a fair amount. If you look at all the research on why Christian church attendance is shrinking, it's generally not to do with anything you're mentioned. In fact, some of the things you ask for often come up as reasons why people leave.
Thanks for your comment. Not sure if you're new to my channel but a lot of my content is dialogue/debate with other traditions, so I'm fairly open about my disagreement with other traditions. I don't see how it's "rich" to have "just joined Anglicanism" (two years in a parish) and only now make a public video about problems I have observed with an honest appeal to our clergy, problems which I know through a lifetime of experience in churches that are far further down the contemporisation line. When does it become acceptable for me to air concerns? 5 years? 10 years? You mention "all the research" but I can't interact with anything without citation. Further, studies are one thing, but such are ultimately constructed from stories of individuals/groups of people and their experiences. I am appealing *directly to those experiences* and the realities behind them, i.e. that a hyper-evangelical, anti-tradition paradigm creates a weak faith/attachment to church, and thus makes people far more prone to leaving. Are you saying this isn't the case? It's very easy to demonstrate the link, and I can point to countless case studies just among people I know that show this, if you want. I also never deny that people haven't left churches out of a (silly) dislike of traditional worship and doctrine; such was certainly the case with, for example, the boomer generation in the post-Vatican 2 Romanist world, who pushed for contemporisation and against traditional Roman worship. I simply point to a real and growing trend that young people are growing increasingly tired of church that tries to look like a secular conference.
Nice video and glad to find your channel. I'm a (relatively) young person in the Uniting Church which is also in decline. I really just think Syd Ang is not immune to the broader cultural trends of secularisation and the fact that young people are very unlikely to step foot in an institution that doesn't allow women to preach or one that holds its particular view on sexuality. From my time previously in a Syd Ang church it also seemed like evangelism was an absolute non starter and of no importance in the context of studying the bible. I'm not surprised new people aren't walking through the doors
I'm glad you're here :D tho I must ask; when you say that the lack of women preaching and conservative view on sexuality is a cause for young people not walking in the door, are you just saying this as a matter of fact or as a fact + a view that Sydney *should* reverse these positions?
@@TheOtherPaul just a matter of fact. While I don't agree with it Syd Ang can believe whatever they choose to. It's just the reality of holding the belief
@@calzonelover3950I'm perplexed as to how you think that's true as churches that conform to the world in the way that you described are dying the quickest and more likely to be filled with just boomers
This reminds me of Redeemed Zoomer's approach. His approach will fail because it has no substance or means to change. He can go to Harvard Divinity or Yale and begin there. Most won't. To the far left or those who have simply drifted off the path and need to realign this amounts to a rebuke to those who already decided to do differently. No matter how you state it those in power will find it either insulting, disrespectful or hostile. I know it's not. I know you don't mean it that way. But as someone significantly older than you we have all been down this road. The solution is to use the mind God graciously gave you brother and go to grad school or seminary. Get on the playing field Paul. Make a difference in the classroom or by leading a church or both. God will honor that work. Show yourself approved. You will change lives as Jesus did one at a time that will last a lifetime. I am praying for your efforts. I do all the time in fact. Blessings.
Thanks for the encouragement and kind words, but I think your framing is quite wrong. For one, I am in a growing group of young Anglicans actively seeking avenues for change in our parishes/diocese. Second, our substance is clear and rich; the formularies of the tradition, and the Anglican divines, whom we read and discuss together every fortnight. This is not akin to your view of RZ's approach (which I don't necessarily agree is accurate to his, but for argument's sake I'll grant it), because we aren't dealing with apostate liberals, but genuinely faithful clergy and bishops (for the most part, as in every other faithful diocese). I know a number of them, as do my friends, and I trust that they are willing to have the conversation, their current views notwithstanding. Good faith clergy will recognise this video for what it is; the honest plea of a layman. Thank you for your constant prayers too, that means a lot to me.
Delaying infant baptism until they are 3 years old and capable of giving answers about the sacrament seems very wise. That reminds me of a saint who seems to have proposed that very practice 😊
You really have two issues you are engaging with: theological and church attendance decline. On church attendance decline could you provide a list of churches that have grown more than 20% over the past 10 years that embody the sacramental liturgical approach you espouse?
@@tobynealsydney thanks for engaging Toby :D I can't give you such stats, since I don't have them, tho that wasn't the purpose of the video either. My aim was chiefly to start the conversation that there may be another factor we are missing in this issue, which I believe to be a major factor from my own experience and investigation, and that more low-church/contemporised liturgy and ecclesiology by nature produces a weakened motivation to attend church, all else being equal.
@@TheOtherPaul I appreciate that is how you feel and you have some anecdotes of that being true for others, but the video you engaged with on The Pastors Heart, of which I was a participant, concerned decline in attendance of Anglican churches. I don’t agree with your theological take on sacramentalism, but I’m happy for you to espouse that. The suggestion however that there is a correlation between contemporary liturgy and church decline is unfounded. In fact I evidence bears the opposite conclusion. The churches that are growing and seeing people saved and grow in faith, are of the kind of church you critique in the video. If I am mistaken, I would really love to see the data. Cheers
@@tobynealsydney I intend at some point on dives into specific data, certainly. That said, I'm aware that the TPH video concerned decline in Anglican churches, though my observations even outside of the communion are still relevant, since the problem of decline involves factors that are not specific to any one communion, those factors being theological and psychological, among others. But I absolutely can discuss cases in Anglican churches themselves, which I hope to do at some point (ideally with other clergy/bishops, since I don't want to just be an online critic). On my overall claim being unfounded, I submit that simply highlighting the churches that are growing happen to be contemporary is insufficient, since then you have to consider what other factors contribute to their growth. Further, it may well be that contemporary liturgy/ecclesiology itself is what attracts (or at least part of what attracts) more people of certain demographics, but then you venture into the question of whether this is sustainable and conducive to a long-term, healthy ecclesiology. Per my summary description of the theology and effects of what I call 'Neo-Calvinistic Biblicism' and its Sydney Anglican form, such is not conducive to a strong church body, even if it does pull in numbers for a time. A good example is Hillsong; they historically have had extreme growth here and globally (notwithstanding the current crisis), but I don't believe any Sydney Anglican would believe that this is sustainable or healthy, given the poor theological/spiritual formation within. Given time, problems will emerge, including decline. That's what I believe is the case with Sydney, since we've had this contemporising movement for a few decades now; many are attracted, spiritual formation is poor, and for any number of reasons people stop attending. All this to say, yes, a number of contemporised churches can and have grown/are growing, but my argument is not with particulars like this and the numerous factors affecting them. Rather, it is to do with contemporised liturgy/low ecclesiology *as such*, its nature and effects. Per the video, I believe it's easily shown that, all else being equal, such is bad for the life of the Church, and it is my opinion that our current decline can in large part be attributed to this. I hope this clarifies where I'm coming from.
@@TheOtherPaul Hey Paul. I am not sure you are across the actual data here. Every 5 years churches conduct the National Church Life Study which looks at church growth as well as congregation health. It is pretty clear that there is a strong correlation within what you would call "Neo-Calvinistic Biblicist" churches and high spiritual formation. I do not know whether that correlation exists within pentecostal churches. The Pastors Heart episode you have engaged with is specifically related to the attendance decline report among Sydney Anglicans and it is obvious in that report that it was churches with high spiritual formation which are the ones that are growing. So your overall argument is unjustified. I don't think its wrong for you to muse on the benefit of traditional liturgy for modern people, but the data among Sydney Anglicans should lead you to conclude otherwise. What church are you at btw? Come and checkout Vine Church sometime. The things we value most are people becoming Christians; Christians growing in their faith; church services that produce awe, love and wonder at the glory of Jesus.
The problem with Sydney Anglicanism is their lack of apostolic succession and any valid claims of ordination to the priesthood and bishop. Historically ordination meant granting the sacramental powers to confect the Eucharist, baptism, and the other sacraments with preaching. Anglicanism denies and affirms the various sacraments without due deference to apostolic succession from the apostles through the Popes to modern times. The English reformation removed the priesthood from the Anglican communion after they invented the English church by an act of Parliament. Its God's will that everyone become Catholic for Gods glory.
If you are an Anglican in Sydney who shares my desire for change and want to connect with other Anglicans who want the same, send me an email or a DM on my socials and we can make it happen. I especially direct this to young Anglicans, but not only to them.
22:00 Young Anglican mentioned?????
Holy smokes Lois is that a freaking Young Anglican reference?!
@@TheOtherPaul psh, I never get mentioned...
As a Roman Catholic, I am very refreshed to hear your critique. In the Catholic Archdiocese of Sydney, they are fostering the Liturgical Spirit (alongside other strange ones I'll admit), and the result is increase in Baptisms, Church Attendance and Attendance of Archdiocese events, such as the March for Life or Corpus Christi Processiin. It's the perfect case study to prove your point that the downplaying of the Liturgical Life, principally found with the Eucharist, for preaching of the Gospel kills attendance and devotion. Worse, it removes the Hope of the Gospel realised. We don't simply preach Jesus Crucified and risen and wait till death to see this to be true, but we see it come to us after the Preaching, in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. This is what Sunday Gathering was in Christianity for its entire history. Saint Maximus the Confessor goes further than simply to say that actions are metaphorical, but are truly real, expressing and demonstrating the Mystical interplay of the Soul with God in a manner not merely metaphorical, but that which the entire creation reveals. This idea wasn't just made up by him, but is implicit within the Church's expression of Liturgical worship. It was a part of the Disciplina Arcani, seen somewhat as early as Saint Cyril of Jerusalem, and gives us a retroactive understanding of the proper context of works such as 1st Corinthians, Hebrews and Revelation.
It breaks my heart to see my Protestant brothers and sisters tear that down. Even if I believe it's in schism, there is a presence of God there, one which is trampled on for the Wisdom of Man in how he wishes to pray, how he wishes to read scripture. At that point, you very much are right: why bother going. Which is why pray for the success of this appeal
This is partly, along with many other reasons, why I am Roman Catholic: "By the fruits you shall know them." The Liturgy, for all it's abuse during the recent Reforms, has still endured more or less in Mystical Function, yet upheld more or less Dogmatic unity.
Great video. Thank you! I have seen that St Andrews Cathedral occasionally does offer a communion service from the 1662 Book of Common Prayer with cassock and surplice, and that they also occasionally offer a choral evensong. If more churches in the diocese were simply encouraged to do these things, and if the cathedral would do them on a regular basis, I think that would go along way towards shoring up the norms of Anglican liturgical identity, and also provide a place for evangelicals to go who are seeking liturgy, sacrament, and beauty.
There also must be (throughout Anglicanism everywhere) a renewed commitment to the 39 articles, including the Sacramental theology contained therein.
I wonder if leaders in Sydney might allow or encourage the use of the ACNA 2019 prayer book as an alternative to the extremely minimal “Common Prayer” you were discussing?
Generally speaking most services ,including Communion are carried out in suit and tie with no regard to Anglican tradition
The cathedral runs a fully-robed BCP service, three times a week. Sunday 8.30am is always BCP communion, and once a month is full choral communion. The (robed) Cathedral choir sing full BCP evensong with short sermon twice a week, Monday and Thursdays at 5.15pm. You’re very welcome.
@@rosscobb900 that's awesome - I'm glad to know it. If I'm ever in Sydney I certainly plan to come visit.
Certainly the Diocese of my childhood no longer exists. My parish was typical of Sydney in those days - 8.00am Holy Communion (North End but followed the BCP exactly and clergy robed), 10.00am Morning Prayer (Clergy robed, BCP exactly, sung the Canticles to Anglican Chant, didn't have a choir so the rest was said) 7.15pm Evening Prayer (similar pattern to Morning Prayer but more youth involvement). It was low church but it was still proudly Anglican. I don't want to return to the BCP but now if I lived in Sydney I would need to travel across many suburbs to a attend a normal Anglican parish. Sadly Moore College is producing clergy that throw the baby out with the bathwater.
A few people here have asked about Christ Church St Laurence, near Central. I have been a parishioner since my return to the faith in 2019, and can say it is the most wonderful, reverential Anglo-Catholic church. In the Anglican tradition, it is welcoming and friendly. Our church is growing, not declining, with more than 400 members.About ten people are going to be confirmed next Sunday by Bishop Stead. Open every weekday, Mass celebrated daily. Of course Solemn High Mass at 10.30am on Sundays is the big service.
I think we met the other week I am Nicholas who used to work at watts and co I totally agree with your point and view
@@nicholashodgkinson2822 Thank you very much
I’m finding myself drawn to Orthodox Christianity after being a Buddhist most of my adult life, however, I am not Eastern European so I feel Orthodoxy might be too culturally alien. I only just learned about Anglo-Catholicism about a week ago and I’m super interested and intending to attend St Laurence’s soon. One thing I’m nervous about is whether or not Anglo-Catholics show due reverence to Mary and the Saints - I am finding they are an important gateway to Christ, especially for women. Any church that fails to acknowledge their important role will (I suspect) inevitably fall into decline because the Trinity can be very intimidating for a lot of people (me included). One of the reasons I left Anglicanism in my youth was because of the absolute barren absence of the holy feminine and the revolting pseudo-iconoclasm of the churches I attended. I am hoping that Anglicanism is in fact a broad church that can move past the misogyny (omitting Mary and female saints) of the hyper-Protestant past - but maybe I’m hoping too much and Orthodoxy will be my new spiritual home …
Hey mate I’m a former anglo-Catholic from Brisbane Australia. I used to worship at all saints Wickham terrace (until we got a priest who supported gay rights, women clergy, abortion etc)
Thank you for sharing your perspectives on Sydney Anglicanism. I’m very sad to hear Sydney Anglicanism is going down this path. :(
This is why Buddhism and Islam and Taoism are growing….there is no awe in modern worship. No awe of God!
As a five-point Calvinist Reformed and evangelical Anglican I do agree that Sydney Diocese has lost a good deal of what is good in Anglican identity. I sometimes wonder how many regular churchgoing Anglicans in Sydney have ever heard of the Te Deum, for example. And I write as one who has little time for liberalism or Anglo-Catholicism but I love 1662 and faithful updates of it.
The Diocese of Sydney has systematically degraded,even to the point of telling parishioners not to attend chuches in other Dioceses not in line with the Diocese of Sydney. So many people have been alienated by the Diocese because they fail to meet the alienating and selective moral purity
Paul, some have suggested the problem goes back to the 1960s. There was a large influx of new Christians as a result of the 1959 Billy Graham Crusade in Sydney. This resulted in a large number of men applying for ordination being trained at Moore College. The trouble was that those in charge at Moore College did not recognise that when they made disparaging remarks about Anglicanism they were no longer speaking to cradle Anglicans who had a love for mother church but to totally unchurched new converts. This mistake was pointed out to me by a person whose family were part of the Sydney dynasty who said: "They didn't realise that these new ordinands were no longer 'sons of the rectory.'" This bred a new batch of clergy who never were Anglicans and their training only encouraged them to turn their backs on the diocese's Anglican (albeit low church/evangelical) heritage.
I've been diving into the books on the diocese' liturgical/theological changes, and the Crusades have come up a couple of times. Do you have sourced I can chase up that attest to this phenomenon that you described?
@@TheOtherPaul I can't really add more information to the conversation I had as it was purely a private observation by a son of one of the academic staff at Moore College at that time.
What has also changed as a result of clergy training in the Diocese is that "services" are replaced with "gatherings". With this comes the teaching that worship is an Old Testament concept and that Christians only gather for fellowship and teaching. (I heard this from a senior priest who is now a bishop)
I once heard a Philip Jensen (a central figure in Syndey Angliucan) sermon in person, where he talked about Billy Graham bringing him (and his brother I think?) to the faith. So I can attest to this from at least this important figure in Sydney Anglicanism.
@@amfm4087 I am pretty sure I've heard him say similar things at a major conference once. And on other occasions.
I've read more of the literature on the history of Sydney Anglicanism and I can confirm that the majority of the literature cites the Graham Crusade as the catalyst to the hyper-Evangelicalism in Sydney.
Excellent video, sir.
I address these issues, with particular reference to the recovery of the BCP,, in my forthcoming book, Language in the Liturgy, Past, Present, Future (James Clarke, Cambridge), due for publication in January, 2025.
Also, could you tell the Cathedral in Sydney to throw out the cringe land acknowledgment they have before every live stream?
Sounds like the Sydney Anglos are trying to become more Baptist than Anglican which is weird
It must be odd for those outside Australia to think that an entire Diocese can be functionally Baptist, but it's a reality that those of us in Sydney live through
St Alban's Anglican Church in Leura Blue Mountains is a fantastic church community. Great biblical teaching enveloped in a beautiful and simple Anglican liturgy. The 8am follows the prayer book structure and 10am is more 'family friendly ' in that there's a kids church, but still structured around a wonderful and meaningful liturgy. Come up for some crisp mountain air and some true joy in hearing the word.
- remove welcome to country
- restore the traditional 1662 liturgy
- restore the communion table to its place of honour in the sanctuary.
- restore sacred music
- preach the gospel….
God will bring people to the church. People keep looking for the ‘right formula’ but there is none…..the gospel will bring people or alienate them as God wills.
Embrace Anglican liturgy (1662 BCP and surplice) and doctrine (the formularies).
South African here, I spent a few years in a South African Anglican denomination which has many close connections to Sydney Anglican. They seem to be taking a lot of their cues from Sydney Anglican, and have also lost a lot of their liturgical and ecclesiastical distinctives.
Many of these churches, while calling themselves Anglican, are genuinely indistinguishable from Nondenominational churches. Very sad.
Paul I have the same ideas in the diocese. I am currently in conversation with my curate at the parish I am at now. If you would like to chat further (as I would very much like to) please do. I might email you later but good to know we are of the same mind about this topic.
Excellent! Send me an email whenever
@@TheOtherPaul I am also taking the first steps for ordination. Didn't think I was clear enough.
Reflecting on this, I've found that the problem is not that Sydney is Evangelical. There are jurisdictions both within Australia and overseas that are theologically Evangelical yet retain high liturgy and worship. The term that I prefer to use to describe Sydney is "hyper-Evangelicalism" because the superlative highlights how they have departed from the traditionally Evangelical Anglican character for a form of contemporary worship in the name of "evangelism".
Thank you.
I remember the first day i knelt at the altar rail in an Anglo catholic parish to recieve our Lord and knew i had come home.
Looking forward to your next topic
Anglo Catholic here...FWIW I have long believed that anglican evangelicals would lose nothing, and gain much from embracing a liturgical ethos. In the very Conservative Missouri Synod Lutheran church, they have Chasubles, weekly eucharist, chanting, and moderate iconography......these guys are clearly and proudly protestant....yet Sydney Anglicans would probably regard them as papists!
I enjoy mass at St John’s Dee Why which is traditional and in the catholic tradition.
Fr Steven Salmon is a brilliant priest and teacher ❤
I have heard good things about your parish, only wished they were more Anglican liturgically instead of using the Roman Missal! Also, if you're a young person looking for a community of other young trad Aussie Anglicans, please reply!
@@williamanderson1880 if you consider low 40’s young then the answer is yes 😂
Jesus love you Paul Amen
This is a very interesting episode (I live in Perth). I was Evangelical, then converted to Roman Catholicism, was there for over tens years, before abandoning denominations altogether and am now trying to figure out what it might mean to be a Layman in a type of hermit vocation (hermit in that I can't find a local congregation that 'fits the bill'), a forced hermit-ish.
Sedevacantism is the way.
@@ReyWho May God bless you.
Christ Church St Laurence near central and St James King Street are both highly liturgical with incense, an altar, vestments, choir, confession, icons, and they observe the catholic liturgical calendar etc etc. they’d be considered Anglo catholic. They even do Ash Wednesday !!
Unfortunately they also have liberal tendencies
@@mitchmclean5435 do they ? How so, genuinely asking because I had been wanting to attend for sometime. I know they very occasionally have a female priest ordained in another diocese occasionally preach but other than that I haven’t gathered anything to indicate them being too liberal. Would be interested to know. Cheers
@@liammckelvey9738 My friend who goes there said there is a transexual in the choir.
@@MichaelLancuba right I didn’t know that. Liberal influence is definitely creeping its way into the Anglo catholic tradition in Sydney, I’ve seen Anglican churches with LGBTQ flags at the front “welcoming people of any sexual orientation” and having more female priests ordained in other jurisdictions preach despite Sydney’s rule against ordaining women (seems like they’re trying to test the waters) I imagine it’s only a matter of time until Sydney ends up like the other dioceses in Australia
That isn't any more Anglican than what the evangelicals are doing.
If you love me, feed my sheep.
These churches are essentially breaking the 5th commandment. Its so sad.
Great video brother Paul!!
Thanks for this video. I’m in Sydney also and attend a local Anglican Church with my young family. I have found that though there is a basically generic evangelical message being presented, it is certainly in need of a more robust sacramentology, liturgy, and intellectual retrieval of classic Protestant theology. Although, I was once told by a senior Presbyterian minister in a Reformed church that we used to attend that Sydney is a bastion for generic evangelicalism, focused on largely practical teaching and that the spirituality is usually at a low level in most places. Having attended numerous Baptist, Presbyterian, continental Reformed, and Lutheran churches, I have found this to be true. Confessionalism is practically dead, even in churches that have a paper confessional allegiance to some historic Protestant document. Possessing a theological education and also teaching religious studies in the university, I have found all this to be quite discouraging. My reading of philosophy also testifies to the fact that the widespread renewal of “spirituality” over religion is symptomatic of a society that no longer has a cohesive guiding “mythos” to give meaning to people’s lives and so there is a ransacking of foreign cultures and religions from the East in order to fill people’s innate religious needs. I feel some of these tensions myself when I look at the indistinguishable secularity and non-sacral reality of the contemporary Church compared to what I have found teaching courses on various world mysticisms. My heart and intellect crave for more than what is offered in the local church. So I live in books, a poor substitute of course, and continue to attend for the sake of my young children. But I’m fairly disinterested because I just don’t see an intellectual and spiritual ethos being cultivated. I guess I have turned into a social Christian in practice, as unfortunate as that admission is.
@@martianuslucianus4485 thanks heaps for giving your story man. I'd love to connect to discuss things further if you're keen.
@@TheOtherPaul Sure thing, we can arrange that!
@@martianuslucianus4485 attempt 2 (YT deleted my comment). Contact me thru my site whenever you feel :)
@@TheOtherPaul I’ll send you a social request, we have some mutuals :)
@@TheOtherPaul Sent you a request :)
A couple of comments from a Catholic here:
I appreciate much of what you say, and I think that you are on the right track. When we worship, we enter in to the heavenly feast, we are present again at the Last Supper, and at Calvary. The hairs on our neck should stand up. The move away from the numinous in worship (which is a Catholic problem, as well as a Protestant one) is very much a convergence with the rejection of authority, truth, and beauty of twentieth century modernity. It is not really contemporary, which is why young adults are questioning the approach. In Catholic circles, it is the elderly who are attached to bad choruses and relaxed liturgy, along with (all too often) a deracinated theological worldview. The young women wear mantillas, and their husbands are looking after baby number five.
This is not to be Pollyanna-ish, as there has been a distressing contraction in attendance, but the young who attend want the Faith, not a social experience.
Wise clergy encourage this, even if they do not completely understand it.
I wonder if the old Anglican practice of having Morning Prayer as the primary Sunday service might be a bridge between where you are now and where you need to go? An emphasis on preaching, but reverent and deep in your tradition?
Oh, and a small thing: I am Catholic, not Romish. I understand that you see catholicity differently from me, but you do come across as unintentionally rude when you use that language.
Blessings.
'Romish' may refer to the fact that the bishop of Rome is the bishop to all Roman Catholics. This term may change naturally once you guys have a pope who is not the Bishop of Rome.
I guess the proper term is Papism since it highlights the uttermost north of the hierarchy. This can be compared to the non-papist churches that reject the notion of Papal Infallibility.
Sydney Anglicans the Anglo-catholic churches are the best of the best. I was an Anglican that went Roman Catholic and the Roman Catholic churches are so gross the Novus ordo is like a Lutheran service. And your whole faith is pope centred instead of Jesus centred. High church Anglicanism in Sydney is thriving
Hi Luke, I hope you don't mind me engaging (very briefly) with your comment. I would suggest to you that Anglo-Catholic churches and High Church Anglican services are not one in the same. 🙂
@@RevJoshuaBovis that's obvious. But you will find Anglo-catholics in high church settings. Anglicanism is a mix, no 2 people are the same in Anglicanism. Often a priest will identify as Anglo-catholic but will do public masses that appeal to more protestant leaning congregations and vice versa. Anglo-catholicism is not a separate sect of Anglicanism. And more importantly Anglo-catholicism isn't a corporate scream of begging for the Roman authorities to accept us.
@@Luke_19951 My misunderstanding. I did not think you made it obvious in your comment that's all. I wasn't critiquing Anglo-catholicism in my reply to you.
Hi mate, if you're a young person looking for a community of other young trad Aussie Anglicans, reply to me!
@@williamanderson1880 I'm definitely looking for that !
Cheers for the video - the first of yours I've watched! Very timely for me. I have a Presbyterian background and the current climate is very similar to the Sydney Anglican climate. I could nearly copy and paste your concerns to the Presbyterian church! There seems to be very little respect for our distinctives and even less regard for learning church history. The appeal to the lowest common denominator is going to leave churches without an identity.
God has given the Church into the hands of Baptists😎💪🏻💪🏻💪🏻
Come and check out St John’s Darlinghurst
Note: the Anglican Diocese of Sydney is never referred to as an Archdiocese. None of the Anglican dioceses in Australia are referred to as Archdioceses. Just Dioceses.
I forgot about this; bit confusing, but thanks.
Hey Paul, Thanks for the video, I'm interested in checking out a traditional Anglican service as you have described. What church would you recommend in the Wollongong region? If not, were could I go to visit a more traditional church?
Shoot me an email and I can help you more there :)
@@woshjales St David's, Thirroul
I see "lex orendi, lex credendi" as prayer and liturgy *shaping* belief, rather than prayer and liturgy reflecting belief, which is the opposite. In other words, if we pray with reverence, we will believe with reverence, and so on. A life of (liturgical) prayer will shape your life and belief -- that is what the monastic movement found when they fled into the desert from terrible persecution. If you want to change your life, change your prayer life: if you (say) prayed the 1662 Common Prayer services of Morning and Evening Prayer *daily*, together with all the listed psalms (quite a load), it will affect you -- it will fill your mind with the psalms, the prayer book of the church. I actually use an older liturgy, which has more hours of prayer and more variation, but just as many psalms. It slowly seeps into you.
I agree with this other perspective of the rule. It really is a feedback loop; liturgy reflects/informs our faith, which in turn reflects/informs our prayer, on and on and on.
First, I think the video you are referencing highly exegereted the problem. Numbers may be down, but that's a much wider phenomenon in the Western world. Sydney is fairly stable in comparison, and they should be grateful! And it is precisely because of what you are criticizing them for.
The same is true in the Church of England. The only churches that are growing here are evangelical low-church churches. There's a recent report that showed that among the top 20 churches with the highest number of young people in the church of England, 19 are evangelical, either charismatic or Sydney style reformed.
And about young people going traditional, I think it's a passing online trend that'll pass away.
Very well reasoned and timely critique of the Sydney Anglican Archdiocese. I hope one of the clergy at Synod makes mention of this video.
Thanks Charles
This was nothing like what I was expecting. This seems like a very long way of saying you like things a particular way - an idea I have sympathy with. These traditional Anglican churches you’re searching for are closing. Folks are put off by the kind of traditionalism you’re understandably fond of. I’m a lifelong Anglican and find the modern church (mostly) more appealing. That doesn’t make me right and you wrong but the traditions you’re keen on feel more like a preference of reverential worship rather than actual doctrine.
Genuine question - how well are Sydney Anglican churches engaging with and discipling non-Anglo Australians? Do traditions help or hinder? My hunch is a more reverent worship would help, in combination with a missional mindset.
If you attend a Sydney Anglican church you will see an over-representation of Asians, compared to the Sydney population
There's been a fairly strong outreach of evangelism towards the Chinese and Korean population. A lot of the younger Korean population are either non-religious or come from Presbyterian families. Likewise, it's also beginning to grow among Indian and Nepalese people. The traditions help and hinder depending on the person, but a lot of it comes down to how the individual actually understands Christianity.
I recall a conversation with an Indian convert who struggled to evangelise to his community because Hinduism extends both culturally and socially in the respect that faith is a literal familial identity and community and rejecting Hinduism is rejecting that. Hasn't helped that Christianity is often viewed as a western colonial influence rather than a universal faith. So yeah, engagement with non-Anglos has been really good compared to the immediate Anglo population though I do not know the state of Anglicanism outside of Sydney.
I do agree with Paul's calling to the emphasis on the sacraments and to dwell more on the mystery with high liturgy, but I would still caution that poor leadership has created a nominal irreverent Christian population in the UK which eroded itself with liberalism even operating under high liturgy. Sydney Anglicans have been conservative in that regard to the point where erroneous liberal Anglican churches have argued with Kanishka over topics such as gay marriage and ordination of women. So while I do wish for high liturgical services to return as a norm, I don't think they're strictly the solution either and not in the "step in the right direction" sort of way either. The problem runs tangential to both.
@@k-reb9687 this is a very helpful reflection. I'm seeing similar trends in the Diocese where I minister. Liberalism has been a poison, and I think that there needs to be a mix of service styles to suit the context, and yet remain firm in Biblical convictions.
@@RichoBCV I do agree my brother. I recall being corrected a while ago, admittedly to my ignorance, that Anglicanism was the middle road between reformed and Lutheranism, not reformed and Roman Catholicism. Hence, there is that spectrum we walk whereby we ought to remember who we are and never end up too far to one side so as we end up becoming indistinguishable from them lest we end up offering the laity nothing that they could find elsewhere.
Could the suburb in which the parish located affect the way the style of worship as well? I attend one such church whose suburb is one of the most liberal and progressive you could imagine in the whole of Sydney, and the most "traditional" service on the morning is pretty much as you described - half contemporary and half traditional.
I get the feeling that these Sydney Anglican churches are in a state of unstable equilibrium.
What you've described in Sydney is not unique to Sydney. I am from Melbourne as you know, and I'm not Anglican. However, that style of worship and doing church in general is something that is almost synonymous with being an Australian evangelical. My former church was pretty much exactly as you described. It wasn't pentecostal (like the church I went to before that), but it wasn't liturgical, or even traditionally low church. I'm at a Reformed congregation now, a tradition that is not well known for being liturgical (due to things like the RPW), but there is a clear difference between worship where I'm at right now, and what it was like before hand. There is no mini band with an acoustic guitar, hand drum and microphone, but a pianist and psalter-hymn (yes Psalm singing, something lost in today's churches) books in pews. While the preaching of the Word is still central, the sermon is not pushed down to the lowest common denominator. There is active use of using Reformed catechisms to teach the laity about the faith. The sacraments, while not being treated like Rome does, or even high church Anglicanism, is still given more respect than in evangelicalism, with it being recognised as a means of grace. I don't think this is a low church versus high church issue per say. You can have critiques of both, and maybe connect historic debates to what we have today. But more importantly, what I'm getting at here, is that what is seen in Australian evangelicalism is totally novel to pretty much all historic Christian traditions, even Baptists one could argue! I think this is a pan-denominational issue within Australian Protestant Christianity, not just Anglicanism (and I'm not saying of course that you're suggesting this Paul, but I am writing this comment as well for other readers).
Hi Paul, I’m sympathetic to many of your points. But this video doesn’t work well as a response to the video on The Pastors Heart. While there is a significant minority of young men who do seek the kind of worship experience you describe, this is still a definite minority. Parts of the online Christian world can make it seem like everyone is just flocking away from evangelical and Pentecostal churches towards Rome, EO & high Anglicanism but this is much more pronounced online than offline. Offline evangelical & pentecostal churches are growing and holding their own much better than high church traditions. If you want to diocese to grow then you probably have a point that the diocese should be able to point people to a couple of traditional style parishes, but to draw the whole diocese in that direction would be a disaster.
Thanks for the pushback Ryan. On the first point, I'm certainly aware that this traditional movement is, numbers wise, a minority, yet a fast growing one, which I don't think anyone can deny. I reflect this in my initial points about how the diocese is overall on the decline due to lack of theological formation and appreciation for our heritage; it's precisely because so many people are not instilled with these principles that they have a relatively thin motivation to remain in the Sydney Diocese, and so can be persuaded to leave by more things than a traditionally-minded Christian in a more liturgical parish would. That most people are not "trad" (to put it crudely) while yet many young people are increasingly becoming "trad" are concurrent realities.
On the growing numbers in certain evangelical and Pentecostal churches, I'm aware of this, having been at Hillsong for over a decade (which, being Pentecostal, was/is in the fastest growing tradition in Australia). However, my own first-hand knowledge in the mother church made clear that the numbers were essentially enabled by Hillsong's model of extremely stripped down Christianity, extreme contemporisation in music, and extreme marketisation. As such, it and other Pentecostal denominations have had an easy time making quick converts, but at the expense of severely lacking theological formation, such that one can find stories of Pentecostals leaving Pente churches (including myself and numerous other people I know) for more reverent, traditional ones, or, God forbid, completely apostatising. That is to say, it's a good short-term strategy, but disastrous long-term. By contrast, we know from over two millennia of experience that traditional Christian thought and liturgy is conducive to an enduring faith in a people.
Amen!
The ACNA is not nearly as bad but there are some pretty cringe parishes and diocese. I believe that some of bishops are moving to address some of that so the geographic diocese can form.
If they stopped being so woke the church would grow
Although in another diocese, I hear you loud and clear. Sent you an email.
Would you make a video specifically on the role of the priest in Anglicanism because that is one thing along most things you mentioned, I’ve noticed in my American Anglican parish. It’s almost like our priest doesn’t want to be called father. Vestments are for special days like Christmas/ Easter… I know our clergy wants to pursue humility but how can this be done without getting rid of some important traditional elements of priesthood?
I certainly will make a video on this in the future, among other issues.
Could it actually be new Calvinism rather than neo Calvinism? They are different isn't it?
They are the same, neo means new.
@@CYC_JP I made this mistake too for a while, there is a distinction. Neo-Calvinism is a tradition promoted by Bavinck and Kuyper, whereas New Calvinism is the movement including men like MacArthur, Piper etc.
Maybe I'm being too negative, but I think you are very critical of other traditions. It's also quite rich to have just joined Anglicanism and then be complaining publicly about "our traditions".
That said, some of your points are good ones. That video you are responding to is just talking heads with no idea what to do. That's why they are so vaugue. I like your comments on how worship and church gatherings are conducted, it often does lack a seriousness. I think there is room for multiple approaches, and I've seen that done successfully before.
Regardless, I think you miss the point, and by a fair amount. If you look at all the research on why Christian church attendance is shrinking, it's generally not to do with anything you're mentioned. In fact, some of the things you ask for often come up as reasons why people leave.
Thanks for your comment. Not sure if you're new to my channel but a lot of my content is dialogue/debate with other traditions, so I'm fairly open about my disagreement with other traditions.
I don't see how it's "rich" to have "just joined Anglicanism" (two years in a parish) and only now make a public video about problems I have observed with an honest appeal to our clergy, problems which I know through a lifetime of experience in churches that are far further down the contemporisation line. When does it become acceptable for me to air concerns? 5 years? 10 years?
You mention "all the research" but I can't interact with anything without citation. Further, studies are one thing, but such are ultimately constructed from stories of individuals/groups of people and their experiences. I am appealing *directly to those experiences* and the realities behind them, i.e. that a hyper-evangelical, anti-tradition paradigm creates a weak faith/attachment to church, and thus makes people far more prone to leaving. Are you saying this isn't the case? It's very easy to demonstrate the link, and I can point to countless case studies just among people I know that show this, if you want.
I also never deny that people haven't left churches out of a (silly) dislike of traditional worship and doctrine; such was certainly the case with, for example, the boomer generation in the post-Vatican 2 Romanist world, who pushed for contemporisation and against traditional Roman worship. I simply point to a real and growing trend that young people are growing increasingly tired of church that tries to look like a secular conference.
The very based other Paul
Super
Nice video and glad to find your channel. I'm a (relatively) young person in the Uniting Church which is also in decline. I really just think Syd Ang is not immune to the broader cultural trends of secularisation and the fact that young people are very unlikely to step foot in an institution that doesn't allow women to preach or one that holds its particular view on sexuality.
From my time previously in a Syd Ang church it also seemed like evangelism was an absolute non starter and of no importance in the context of studying the bible. I'm not surprised new people aren't walking through the doors
I'm glad you're here :D tho I must ask; when you say that the lack of women preaching and conservative view on sexuality is a cause for young people not walking in the door, are you just saying this as a matter of fact or as a fact + a view that Sydney *should* reverse these positions?
@@TheOtherPaul just a matter of fact. While I don't agree with it Syd Ang can believe whatever they choose to. It's just the reality of holding the belief
@@calzonelover3950I'm perplexed as to how you think that's true as churches that conform to the world in the way that you described are dying the quickest and more likely to be filled with just boomers
Are there many churches in the diocese that still use the traditional BCP service?
There aren't sadly.
@TheOtherPaul Sad, may that change dv.
@@TheOtherPaul Yes there is! St Alban's Leura as a BCP Service every Sunday at 8am (except for the fourth Sunday of the month)
St Mark's at Darling Point does on a Sunday at 8
If at all, at 8:00am for the older members, at any other service, never.....
This reminds me of Redeemed Zoomer's approach. His approach will fail because it has no substance or means to change. He can go to Harvard Divinity or Yale and begin there. Most won't. To the far left or those who have simply drifted off the path and need to realign this amounts to a rebuke to those who already decided to do differently. No matter how you state it those in power will find it either insulting, disrespectful or hostile. I know it's not. I know you don't mean it that way. But as someone significantly older than you we have all been down this road. The solution is to use the mind God graciously gave you brother and go to grad school or seminary. Get on the playing field Paul. Make a difference in the classroom or by leading a church or both. God will honor that work. Show yourself approved. You will change lives as Jesus did one at a time that will last a lifetime. I am praying for your efforts. I do all the time in fact. Blessings.
Thanks for the encouragement and kind words, but I think your framing is quite wrong. For one, I am in a growing group of young Anglicans actively seeking avenues for change in our parishes/diocese. Second, our substance is clear and rich; the formularies of the tradition, and the Anglican divines, whom we read and discuss together every fortnight. This is not akin to your view of RZ's approach (which I don't necessarily agree is accurate to his, but for argument's sake I'll grant it), because we aren't dealing with apostate liberals, but genuinely faithful clergy and bishops (for the most part, as in every other faithful diocese). I know a number of them, as do my friends, and I trust that they are willing to have the conversation, their current views notwithstanding. Good faith clergy will recognise this video for what it is; the honest plea of a layman.
Thank you for your constant prayers too, that means a lot to me.
Delaying infant baptism until they are 3 years old and capable of giving answers about the sacrament seems very wise. That reminds me of a saint who seems to have proposed that very practice 😊
It already worked in the SBC and CRC.
@@TheOtherPaul I pray you are right in every way and God richly blesses your efforts Paul.
You really have two issues you are engaging with: theological and church attendance decline. On church attendance decline could you provide a list of churches that have grown more than 20% over the past 10 years that embody the sacramental liturgical approach you espouse?
@@tobynealsydney thanks for engaging Toby :D
I can't give you such stats, since I don't have them, tho that wasn't the purpose of the video either. My aim was chiefly to start the conversation that there may be another factor we are missing in this issue, which I believe to be a major factor from my own experience and investigation, and that more low-church/contemporised liturgy and ecclesiology by nature produces a weakened motivation to attend church, all else being equal.
@@TheOtherPaul I appreciate that is how you feel and you have some anecdotes of that being true for others, but the video you engaged with on The Pastors Heart, of which I was a participant, concerned decline in attendance of Anglican churches. I don’t agree with your theological take on sacramentalism, but I’m happy for you to espouse that. The suggestion however that there is a correlation between contemporary liturgy and church decline is unfounded. In fact I evidence bears the opposite conclusion. The churches that are growing and seeing people saved and grow in faith, are of the kind of church you critique in the video. If I am mistaken, I would really love to see the data. Cheers
@@tobynealsydney I intend at some point on dives into specific data, certainly. That said, I'm aware that the TPH video concerned decline in Anglican churches, though my observations even outside of the communion are still relevant, since the problem of decline involves factors that are not specific to any one communion, those factors being theological and psychological, among others. But I absolutely can discuss cases in Anglican churches themselves, which I hope to do at some point (ideally with other clergy/bishops, since I don't want to just be an online critic).
On my overall claim being unfounded, I submit that simply highlighting the churches that are growing happen to be contemporary is insufficient, since then you have to consider what other factors contribute to their growth. Further, it may well be that contemporary liturgy/ecclesiology itself is what attracts (or at least part of what attracts) more people of certain demographics, but then you venture into the question of whether this is sustainable and conducive to a long-term, healthy ecclesiology. Per my summary description of the theology and effects of what I call 'Neo-Calvinistic Biblicism' and its Sydney Anglican form, such is not conducive to a strong church body, even if it does pull in numbers for a time. A good example is Hillsong; they historically have had extreme growth here and globally (notwithstanding the current crisis), but I don't believe any Sydney Anglican would believe that this is sustainable or healthy, given the poor theological/spiritual formation within. Given time, problems will emerge, including decline. That's what I believe is the case with Sydney, since we've had this contemporising movement for a few decades now; many are attracted, spiritual formation is poor, and for any number of reasons people stop attending.
All this to say, yes, a number of contemporised churches can and have grown/are growing, but my argument is not with particulars like this and the numerous factors affecting them. Rather, it is to do with contemporised liturgy/low ecclesiology *as such*, its nature and effects. Per the video, I believe it's easily shown that, all else being equal, such is bad for the life of the Church, and it is my opinion that our current decline can in large part be attributed to this. I hope this clarifies where I'm coming from.
@@TheOtherPaul Hey Paul. I am not sure you are across the actual data here. Every 5 years churches conduct the National Church Life Study which looks at church growth as well as congregation health. It is pretty clear that there is a strong correlation within what you would call "Neo-Calvinistic Biblicist" churches and high spiritual formation. I do not know whether that correlation exists within pentecostal churches. The Pastors Heart episode you have engaged with is specifically related to the attendance decline report among Sydney Anglicans and it is obvious in that report that it was churches with high spiritual formation which are the ones that are growing. So your overall argument is unjustified. I don't think its wrong for you to muse on the benefit of traditional liturgy for modern people, but the data among Sydney Anglicans should lead you to conclude otherwise.
What church are you at btw? Come and checkout Vine Church sometime. The things we value most are people becoming Christians; Christians growing in their faith; church services that produce awe, love and wonder at the glory of Jesus.
This video explains why I like going to CCSL when I am in Sydney.
Also; thupper.
Great points made, however infant baptism is unbiblical. One must first believe and then be baptised.
Great thoughts brother
Nice haircut bro
The problem with Sydney Anglicanism is their lack of apostolic succession and any valid claims of ordination to the priesthood and bishop. Historically ordination meant granting the sacramental powers to confect the Eucharist, baptism, and the other sacraments with preaching. Anglicanism denies and affirms the various sacraments without due deference to apostolic succession from the apostles through the Popes to modern times. The English reformation removed the priesthood from the Anglican communion after they invented the English church by an act of Parliament.
Its God's will that everyone become Catholic for Gods glory.
SNAC Carlton is good.
This is the issue: Liberalism and subjectivity isn't a bug within Protestantism - its a feature.
Lol.