Wet Mounting a Rifle Scope with Hakan Spuhr: Myth or Reality?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ม.ค. 2025
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Awesome video. I heard the 419 guys talk about putting some grease on the rail years ago and have been doing it. My zero has never been more consistent.
Good slap like to start a bar fight 😂😂
That was my favorite!!
@ yeah that was hilarious. Nice to see a sense of humor come out even in a professional conversation 😂👍🏻 and I appreciate all the info that you put out here for young guys like myself and for all ages for that matter. Your content has been very informative and helpful for me as I continue my novice adventure into reloading
4:39, when it comes to inside the rings "inaudible"... what is it? really cool premise. Would blue loctite count as a lubricant? could it throw off torque specs?
@@jonathanrogers9961 he uses rosin in the rings.
@@FClassJohn Got it, thanks! it sounded like rose something, even checked auto CC and it was showing as rose. hoping to put a new scope on my 30-06 hunting rifle and want it as solid as I can get it.
So the reason we torque screws is to apply a specific clamping force. But torque is a measure of rotational force, hence we are measuring how hard we are turning the screw not how much clamping force is being applied. The problem is friction, we have all had to undo a rusty bolt, now if you have a 12” breaker bar and you apply 100 LB pulling that would roughly be 100 foot pounds of torque. On a rusty bolt with high friction from the rust in the threads. The bolt will be hard to undo so we put penetrating oil on and clean out the threads and after we do that the same 100 foot pounds undoes the bolt because we lowered the friction.
So now we understand that friction of the screw will affect the torque required to move the screw/bolt.
Now to apply a clamping force we stretch the screw/bolt with in the elastic range, by rotating the screw/bolt. So how much force is applied depends on lots of factors but friction in the threads is the only one we care about. Typically torque valves are a dry torque, applying a dry torque valve to a lubricated bolt can exponentially increase the force and snap screws/bolts. But some materials require lubrication stainless steel and aluminium are two of them. But that is predominantly when you have the same metals eg, SS bolt /SS nut.
So be very careful applying lubricants to threads, a lubricant can be any oil, grease or thread locker. As a general rule if it doesn’t come with or mention lubrication in the instructions, but has a torque valve it’s a dry valve and keep the threads free of lube. or contact the manufacturer.
I, too, was confused. I had to go back and look at it again. After reading John's reply, I think he is saying he put "rosin there", but we are hearing "rose in there". Then I chuckled.
@@dsarcy I'm not sure stretching a bolt is for clamping force but to allow vibration and not have it come lose. This is the reason I measure piston rod bolts for stretch. Different grades bolts will stretch at different rates making the clamping force different and the only way one would know how much force it got would be by a torque wrench!
A fantastic video, but if it's been all over the Internet, this is the first time I heard of the procedure. Thanks.
Been out there for a long time now.
Never too old to learn are we John! Thanks! great video Excellent content
I think this falls into the catagory of, "there is either a benefit, or there is not; but there is no harm, so may as well try it."
Never would have thought.
John - great video. Have learned a lot from your channel.
Makes me think of torquing head studs with and without lubricant. You get 2 different results after making a run and tearing an engine down again. Never crossed my mind to think of it applying here
Oil the base up before you put your rings or mounts on and put rosin on the scope to scope rings surfaces.
I wet mount and use Spuhr mounts exclusively. I have unfortunately had a gun drop off a bench 3 feet onto concrete, the gun was 35lbs in it's configuration. It hit multiple spots on the barrel and ultimately on the 12 and 6 O'clock position on the windage turret on a TT 5-25P. The zero did not move. Spuhr mounts are 2nd to none.
I was under the impression that lubing your screws would throw off your torque. Maybe have it backwards and NOT lubing your screws will do that? How can you lube your screws and also use blue loctite?
Erik has a video coming where Hakan Spuhr talks about mounting in the rings and he says lube or oil is fine but his actual preference is blue loctite but says everyone should use at least one of the two options over dry screws.
Blue Loctite will act as a lubricant while tightening a fastener until it sets up.
Dry torque will be different than wet torque. With wet threads the bolt will stretch more before the click.
Exactly but will the screws and threads take it or does one risk breaking a screw or stripping the threads?@2whl4re
@@FClassJohn OK, good. I generally use blue loctite. Thanks.
what is "rose" that he puts inside the rings?
Rosin.
it's powdered rosin/resin
@@CharlesLambert-h5s thanks, what brand is he specificarlo talking about?
@ I use the Brownells
@@CharlesLambert-h5s thanks a lot
I first learned about wet mounting on laser aiming modules. 100% makes sense on scope mounts.
Never thought about this but it does make sense. Anti-seize grease would be the best choice, but of course we all know the risks inherent to anti-seize...
Thank you for clarifying John 4m35/4m40.
Very interesting. Not sure about the explanation as to why, though. Picatinny hold on friction on the sides and the slot/lug fit. I think that the lubricant could either be helping in the mount returning to original position or making the "move on friction" smoother and not letting the friction affect the alignment of the mount. Just my 2c. However worth applying to my 200 WinMag and 7mm Rem Magnum mounts. Cheers.
I feel what was being suggested is dry you rely on the friction from the surfaces at that position as well as the opposing forces across the dovetail milling, so when knocked you momentarily up the load and the capacity of the friction is passed, so you get movement into another position. Whereas wet you reduced surface friction and rely on the opposed cramping more completely and that does not moves when knocked. Something I can attest to from square taper bicycle cranks, I always copper slipped them and at 130 kg never had any come loose or need a puller to remove. As I say my take only.
Very interesting. AT the end he mentioned something twice but I don't know what he said. On the rings what is he using.
Rosin.
Oh! So now it’s ok to lubricant the screws too. See told everyone use threadlocker. “Oh it lubes the screws and won’t torque properly “ haaaa lol
Rosin for the ring bases/cap interior surfaces makes good sense. Torgue values are in the inch pound realm and rarely have I seen caps beyond 25 inch pounds. Most are under 20. Have a few that state 45+ inch pounds.
On the rings? Or the base, never seen 45+ on rings unless they are multiple screws 3x18 inch pounds, etc. No way would I ever torque an individual screw anywhere near that on a ring cap, that’s a good way to damage a scope, permanently.
So are the cap screws supposed to be wet torqued? Never heard of anyone doing that, never read it on any manufacturers instructions either.
If you get into life critical bolt systems, grease and torque/tightening instructions specs become very important
No! Listen again. He clearly says contact area between scope rings and pic rail.
@@RexemAustralia he states that clearly, ending with "that's it".
HELP !!! does this procedure work for all types of scope rings or is it really only effective with traditional rings?
I have Larue CAN mounts that have a slip fit style locking mechanism which is tensioned by a QD throw arm, it’s tooless and there are no screws at the mount to rifle base junction.
Then there is a whole lot of various QD mounts that you tension the mount with a locknut and apply reasonable pressure to secure. Again it can vary as there isn’t a torque value per se to the front and rear locking mechanisms and no screws.
Thx
What does he put in the rings? Did not understand that. Thank you from Germany
Tobias
He puts rosin in there.
@@FClassJohn Thank you. Did he somehow specify which one, maybe off camera? Thank you again!!
@@tobiastorsi No he didn't but I'm going to be using a liquid version that I can brush on.
@@FClassJohn looking forward to your findings!
Hi Håkan! ! When we were in Ireland, I had my rifle on the ground on a bipod. Pia accidentally kicked it causing it to land on it’s side. Gasp! Luckily my zero held. Ask if she remembers!
I bought a Nightforce ATACR on a 338 Lapua. The place I bought it from mounted the scope in back using Nightforce 6-screw rings. One day because of accuracy issues I decided to remove my scope and they oiled the rings and tube when assembling it. There was wear marks on Nightforce scope tube from movement. But now I'll have to try to oil the rail mount instead where they were supposed to oil it.
Been using impereal wax on screws that need torquing to prevent galling,,and a false torque reading,,,never have issues with movement or loosening,,,,,my .02$……
This is super interesting. I wonder if these even applies to things like red dots. Can't hurt, I guess?
Best of the best... super man too... Long live Sphur.
What in the hell does he mean by “moved under friction”. Friction by definition is the resistance to moved under force as a result of some surface contact. My thinking is actually the opposite of his. My guess is that the matting surfaces are not exact enough to have 100% contact. This true for anything surface to surface system. Adding in a molecular layer of oil takes up the very small gaps…. Similar to bedding a rifle but at a much much smaller scale. More over the force of the screwing mechanism is probably distributed more evenly under a more “homogeneous” contact plane…. Ie the two surface of contact.
What did he say to put inside the rings?
Rosin, I do it on all my light weight magnum hunting rifles. But I’ve never wet mount that’s new to me.
powdered rosin/resin
@@CharlesLambert-h5s What does the resin do to the finish on the scope if you were to remove it?
@ it can be a pain to get off. The rifles I use it on are hunting rifles I don’t usually remove the scope
@@greasegun1313 i've heard that, unlike glue, you can remove it without leaving any residue behind or damaging the scope finish, but i have not actually tried that yet
5:35 Whoa whoa whoa he's just going to drop that bomb and then end the video. I have always heard the exact opposite, no lubrication on screws as it'll mess with your torque settings.
I know what you're saying and maybe this will help. Some people will put a drop of oil on the screw and a drop on the threaded mount. This is too much oil and this will affect torque readings as air bubbles (more so with larger bolts/screws) will get trapped in the threads/screws causing unequal clamping force. This is mainly due to the oil being to thick and not being evenly distributed on the screw and threads. Too avoid this, use a thin viscous oil (Loctite blue is very "runny" and thin) and rotate it around the threads and screw with a fine hair brush and run the screw into the threads (w/o the scope) a few times to make the oil is evenly applied. Use oil sparring, enough to evenly coat without having any globs or drips.
Anyone ever tighten a hose clamp to where you can’t tighten it anymore then take your nut driver and hit the clamp with the handle all round it then get another half turn on the worm screw. Yeah friction is real. Tighten a 5/8 bolt to torque then whack it with a 3lb hammer then torque it again and get a 1/8 more turn. Makes sense to me the anodized surface causes friction and throws off the final position and final torque value.
Well I have to try now
IMO, if a slap of a scope is enough to knock it off by .4 MIL, its a POS
LOLOLOL. One, he's not talking about the actual optic.....he's talking about the mount/rings and the way they interface with the surface you are mounting them on.
Two, if you're using a picatinny rail, there will always be space between the recoil lug and the rail that an optic can move. It's impossible for it not to.
Depending on the condition of the mounting surfaces, you could take the best optic on the planet and the best mount on the planet, and an impact to the optic may shift it.
Lol, in my opinion if a slap of a scope is enough to knock it off by .4 mil, and it’s NOT the scope, then the RINGS are a POS
The installer would be the pos, because they didn't lube the prior to installation. There's a video about that...
@@Solving_Live_Poker 10-4. I misunderstood. Still though, good QR mounts have much better return to zero than .4 MIL, so thats still pretty bad
There are two different 1913 specifications!
Alright...enough said i will change my ways.🎉
It makes sense.
What about an adhesive between the base and the receiver? I am in the process of replacing the 11mm dovetail bases on my Anschutz 1727F with a picatinny rail. I found that Anschutz had used an adhesive on the front base. The mounting screws are very small and I am mounting a 34mm scope which is quite heavy. Maybe I should use an adhesive as a precaution. What are your thoughts?
I have a 1727. I wet mounted my optic. Never had a zero shift. I also wet mount my precision CF rifle. Never get a zero shift even though it gets banged around pretty hard.
Got a good video on wet mounting?
First Ive heard of this
Slap the scope like Joe Rhea on his Videos!!!
Cyclops Joe, I Dig his channel!!!
Epoxy bed your rings and anti seize your ring cap screws, the best gunsmiths do this for there customers, as well as a few golden bullet winners. I learned it from Speedy Gonzales 16 years ago. If you don't know who that is then you don't really know shooting history.
Sako.
This is incorrect. You need to wear red socks and stand on one foot in order to properly mount an optic.
If the winner of a match uses this tactic then it is the ultimate proof and everyone will follow.
The top of the pic rail or the side ?
Nice
Armor taught me that trick 20 plus years ago.
....ya,...nothing new, 30 years ago for me, & I was taught to use like rtv-silicone & even a film in the rings, prior to that we were using teflon-tape in rings, but, always the rtv silicone is superior,....funny how long it takes for great things to catch on.....
All I can say is in reference to the last part. Lube your screws. Lube the base screws and ring screws. No Loctite ever. Torque to Mfg recommended torque. and leave it alone
The creator of the spuhr mount recommends loctite (which acts as a lubricant before setting). What is your reasoning behind not using loctite? I’ve never found any evidence against it.
The lube is the loctite that it hardens just keeps it from backing out. The entire point is that when torquing two mating surfaces it’s important you’re not measuring the friction between the parts but the actual mating pressure.
IS this for real? I guess I am re zeroing everything now.
If you’re not experiencing a problem then don’t bother.
but he does mention hi or large caliber weapons so anything above a 308 imho, like .338, 375 cheytac right up to say a 20 mm cannon sniper system, just think of the forces acting on a large caliber system, recoil and vibration, it could move the recital inside the scope to the point where your off on the point of aim, meaning that the scope has moved on the rial, no matter what the torque settings are for the bolt down for the scope and what brand of scope mounting system you using, its common sense really, if only the did testing of just how much vibration goes down the weapon system at each point on the weapon, from the end of the barrel with suppressors to recoil minimisers or flash suppressors right down to the but stock.👌👌🦘🦘
Heavy scopes on heavy recoiling firearms. It's basic physics. A heavy scope will have more inertia (it takes more force to get it moving), coupled with a sharp hard recoil means it can slip in the rings. He says he uses rosin inside the rings to give it more frictional grip to prevent the rings sliding on the scope in recoil. You can't just crank down tighter on the rings as you could crush the tube, so adding rosin adds more friction/grip. If recoil is actually moving the reticle inside the scope that means one of two things (or both): The scope is poorly built, or you have an extreme amount of recoil.