I was always told to get low action you need a straight neck. You made perfect sense and it's clicked in my head! Thanks for the video and helping visualize what's going on. Cheers!
Thank you i been in this fight with strats about relife my friend told me the strighter the better but the feel is not as good so ill add some relife. what woulld you set your strat neck relife at ?
And to think about this, the neck relief my Fender Telecaster with a 7.25" fret radius is spec'd by Fender to be 0.012". Twelve thousandths of an inch! The thickness of three sheets of standard white copy paper. If my relief is only 0.005" more for a total of 0.015", you can tell it when seting string height wherein you will NEVER attain proper relief all along the length of the neck. Intonation will be good at one section but never quite there at the other end and vice versa simply because you are stretching the string more, or less when fretting a particular note. The greater the fret radius, i.e., 9.5" or 12.5" which is a flatter profile the less relief is spec'd.. 9.5" to 12.% "gets 0.010" of spec'd relief. 15 to 17" gets .0.008" of neck relief.
80% correct. And most people that understand this much can fill in the rest. My only gripe is that he somewhat contradicted himself when saying the part of the neck connected to the body won't move, but then said it will with too much relief. It won't period. But, because there's such a variety of construction styles and body shapes, the point at which the neck is securely fastened to the body can be drastically different. Not every guitar will react the same from the same adjustment. Understanding that the string height can be adjusted by at least 3 variables on almost any modern guitar, is the whole point.
Dr. Kev, I am also a player and guitar tech, and this is one of the most straightforward and logical explanations of neck relief, as it relates to string action, that I've encountered. Props to you and keep up the good work. It's amazing the difference we can feel in our fingers when we're making adjustments in tiny fractions of inches / centimeters!
You just fixed my partscaster! It had super high action after the 12th fret, the saddles on the lower strings were all the way up and still buzzing. I adjusted the neck relief and the action is lower and the fret buzz is gone. Thanks a bunch DrKev!
Another great video. Read through a few comments after, and I definitely agree that this explains the theory and geometry behind neck relief better than any other resource I've come across yet. Thanks for the run down.
Only found this now, about fucking time someone said this. I have moved into stringed instrument repair and setup with an engineering background and have been doing this for a long time, well done man. Having necks as straight as possible is an old wives tale and had no place in engineering
Thanks for this Kev. You've taught me to love relief. I've fought against it all my life, the hideous banana necks of my youth would turn anyone into a rabid straight-necker (some of them are on here, forgive them, it's not their fault, it's the 1970s), but through your ancient wisdom I have learned to love The Bow. I can even shoot arrows with my Strat now!
Thank you Dr. Kev for this video. I am starting to set up my own guitars and your video(s) are very informative and you explain better than any other videos on YT. Also no other person on YT has explained the interaction between relief and distance between the string and frets past 12. This comes in handy. I am setting up my Fender Jaguar which is my first setup.
You're awesome!!! Second video of yours I watch and immediately I've had burning questions answered that nobody else even addresses. For this video, I was wondering why you measure neck relief while fretting the body fret and not the last fret, and now I know! Thank you SO much for your videos! Subbed!
Recently changed all my guitars from 100% straight to having a bit of relief, instantly all the strings sound fuller acoustically and plays much better, buzz free
My neck is sort of straight with a little relief and I have low action but it works fine for me. I used to have a straight neck and it was a pain. A little relief fits me well.
This makes a lot of sense. The arguments for "dead straight" and "some relief" never mention the action above fret 12 which is as you say the prime reason to want to introduce neck relief.
On most guitars if you can adjust the string height to your liking with saddle adjustments there is no need for a shim. (There are a few exceptions but not many).
Well let me say this thank you for clarifying this to me reason because I used to do what most people do straight neck and try to get low action but it was just hard to play because the guitar had so much stress in the neck, everythign cvhanged today i was trying to get rid off the fret buzz on my frets close to the nut and i started releasing the stress and to my suprise the action started lowering too and i was like why is this happening and i started googling and found your video with a great explanation about the subject thank you !
Thanks. I needed to understand this. I was reading that a straighter neck is easier to play. I’m finding that a neck with a good amount of relief is more comfortable for my wrist. My JP15 has a thin neck, so adding extra relief makes it feel better.
Omg, that's the best best best video on TH-cam! I have Music Man Silhouette from 1989, I am worry about the string height thing, at the nut lower and at the higher frets are higher, I'm worry about this thing until I watch this video, now I understand it, I was searching videos and I can't find a video about this thing but today I found your video and I"m so happy with it, so you are a really good man, THANKS A LOT !!!! :) :) I subbed to your channel ! :) I hope you make a video about how to set it up your Music Man Silo :)
I was intrigued with this idea, as it appeared to make perfect sense, and after listening to a lot of discussion on flat necks are better as peak amplitude isn't always over the 8th fret etc.. Here are the actual results of adding more relief to a strat neck which then allowed me to lower the bridge. Interestingly the action at the 7th stayed the same whilst the 17th fret action was now significantly lower. Relief 0.04 Relief 0.08 1ST 7TH 12TH 17TH 1ST 7TH 12TH 17TH E 0.4 0.92 1.49 1.87 E 0.41 0.93 1.43 1.61 B 0.53 0.84 1.37 1.72 B 0.44 0.91 1.37 1.58 G 0.42 0.78 1.27 1.56 G 0.41 0.81 1.23 1.42 D 0.38 0.99 1.45 1.73 D 0.4 1.05 1.43 1.65 A 0.39 0.91 1.3 1.63 A 0.42 1 1.32 1.59 E 0.62 1.03 1.31 1.74 E 0.64 1.06 1.28 1.65 The neck relief by itself didn't create all the effect, but in combination with a slight lowering of saddles created a better result.
Perfectly flat necks are feasible but the fretboard has to be perfectly leveled, frets have to be leveled, nut slot height perfect and saddle height perfect. I’ve played one guitar with a flawlessly flat neck with insanely low action and zero fret buzz. It was a Vigier. Also interesting thing about that guitar is that the neck has a perfectly flat radius too. It was an incredible guitar.
Thank you! Your visual aids- the drawings- make all the difference in the world. So helpful! To make your video even better, how about making up a guitar with a hard rubber neck? (You could call it the Flexocaster.) Then to illustrate your point, you could just bend the neck up or down. (Just a suggestion.)
So I tried this with a couple guitars and almost straight (.003") offer the best result. So when ppl say straight they probably mean very little relief. I used to have a lot of relief but now that I've tried little I'm hooked. It feels more even and responsive from top to bottom.
It is, there's math involved with it, the neck carries harmonics much better, intonation will be correct. People who have issues with straight necks don't have their frets leveled properly, I mean Kev here is onto something with wanting consistent action all across the fretboard, but if you reduce falloff on the frets past the first octave, you can have a guitar with really consistent, very low action as long as the nut height is correct. I have seen/played guitars with sub 1mm action height and no buzzing.
@@cephalopod1380 Yeah but the guitar has to be designed to be played with a straight neck. The part where he talks about shimming is why. If the neck angle is "wrong" in relation to the nut and bridge you won't be able to get a buzz free guitar with low action unless you add some relief. And most guitars have that issue. Suhr is one of those brands that don't. You can play them with low action and a straight neck.
This is a great video, thanks. So, hypothetically if I have a straight neck with no buzzing, that’s totally fine? The straight neck does not do any other harm?
@@DrKevGuitar I'm struggling to lower the action on the low E to less than 7/64 without buzzing. I'm trying to straighten the neck to avoid the buzzing on the 8th to 12th frets but before to avoid the buzzing there I'm getting buzzing on the first two frets, so the only way to have no buzzing is to increase the bridge up to 7/64 on the low E. Any tips how can I get the low E on 5/64's without buzzing? Thanks
@@lazotashev8232 Try this: 1) adjust the neck perfectly straight. Then adjust the bridge/saddles for lowest acceptable action on frets 12 to 22. Play along to real music, don't listen in a quiet room for tiny buzzes. Compromise is key, a small amount of buzzing is acceptable if it's not intrusive when playing real music. 2) Then try playing elsewhere and adjust the neck relief ONLY. Once you have acceptable buzzing between frets 1 and 5, and acceptable buzz 15th to last fret, you should be good. Anything else, take it to a tech.
@@DrKevGuitar Thanks for your answer, to be honest, the buzzing is acceptable even now, I could only hear it when playing acoustically only and through an amp was fine with the action I wanted (5/64 low E and 3/64 high E). So I guess I'll play like that, thanks one more time.
I never had a problem with high action or fret buzz. All my guitars have a slight concave bow. If you look down the neck if it has a barely visible slight bow it will be fine.Then you have to adjust the saddles or nut
Good video, very useful. Do you have a rule of thumb for setting up neck relief? Sounds like you capo the first fret and the other one at where the neck joins the body (15/16 ish). If you then take the mid point what amount of clearance would you start with before tweaking to perfection? Having just retired I’ve been really getting to grips with my truss rods, I used to always have some relief but recently purchased one of those notched out neck rulers and set my neck to almost totally flat and now have the best action I have achieved. I can see this is going to be a longer journey than I was expecting but definitely agree…. Don’t be afraid of the truss rod. I found that by doing a bit one day, playing and tweaking over a few days led to the best results…. compared with doing it in a frustrated busy weekend hurry. Retirement is great.
My "go to" setting is 0.20 mm (0.008"), that's from the top of the fret to the bottom of the low E string, measured with feeler gauges. In my experience that works really well for most people right away but of course feel free to adjust above or below that as you like. New video to come soon on measuring relief.
This is a great video.. Very well explained!! I have a question though.. If I press simultaneously on the first and last fret on the low E string and there's no gap whatsoever between the string and the frets, like they are completely touching.. Is it only a truss rod issue?? Should I add more relief?
Straight necks are absolutely the way to go. Get your frets leveled, properly. There's math involved with the placement of the frets, once you have a curve in the neck you've shortened the entire scale length and the intonation will never be correct. If you have a PLEK'd guitar you can have a perfectly straight neck. If you have buzzing and need to add relief, your frets are not level. I have several guitars that have a perfectly straight neck yes, that's 0.000" of relief. There is no buzzing whatsoever on them, and the intonation is amazing.
Dead straight necks just choke out the notes and forces you to have the string height way too high. My recommendation is 10 thousandths of an ich holding the first fret and 17th fret down measuring at the 9th fret to the bottom of the string, after that my string height is the following measuring at the 17th fret (no frets held down)keep in mind you could capo the first fret to factor out the nut (If you don't have an 8 string just disregard the first two strings.) E=4.5/64 B=4/64 E=4/64, A=4/64, D=3/64, G=3/64, B=3/64, E=3/64 Then intonate the strings. These are the Abasi Concepts measurements will give you a very nice low action for fusion, jazz, and metal.
Short answer: Well, if you like it that way, then it's ok. Long answer: I would say that is too much neck relief and would not recommend such a setup. In this situation most people would have the saddles too low. In that situation they will find that the strings will buzz, and bending will "fret out", on the higher frets (15th fret and above) . Or, if that's not the case, the action may be too high from 7th to 12th frets to play comfortably.
It's not enough relief. If the 12th fret is higher than the 24th you have a back bowed beck. That means you have negative relief. You took relief out until it started to form a bump making the lower frets higher than the higher frets. Alternatively you could have uneven frets.
I have 2 guitars. One really cheap and the other really expensive. They both have the same problem. The thickest string won't intonate properly. It's always too sharp and i run out of room to adjust at the saddles. How do you fix this problem without un-screwing the whole bridge and relocating it? Thanks for the vids Doc!
This is a nut problem (slot cut too high, common problem). You need to file down the nut slot until the open string and the first fret both tune accurately (with a +/- cents tuner). Then intonate the string at the 12th fret (adjust bridge saddles) and you should find that the string intonates accurately right up the fretboard.
The least relief the better. As long as it plays well. Most guitars need more relief because they ain't all that great. If you have to shim it, do it. However, that usually means it was poorly made in the 1st place. Especially if the truss-rod won't hold. Truss-Rods are not meant to adjust string height. If you have .015-020 at the 7th or 8th fret and it's still not right, your neck may be less than nominal if not FUBAR. You can try shimming. You can try a fret level/ and go through the grits/polish or try a new neck. Or just get another guitar. PLAY it 1st. Never buy one by mail unless you know for sure what you are getting or want one to mod yourself. Don't pay for what you can get without the hassle or extra cost.
Peter greens set up and claptons is an arrow strait kneck especialy with a les paul ...its 5000s of an inch especialy for les paul....next time u watch clapton check his guitar kneck its that strait you can actualy see it !...and peter green only ever kept it strait saying he never used the bass strings up high ...people always thought his action was too high!
Too little would be a backbow (negative) and no manufacturer recommends more than 0.5 mm, so the average there would be 0.25 mm BUT most players prefer less than that. See my video here for my full guideline setup specifications... th-cam.com/video/fPPcwB4TLCM/w-d-xo.html
Hi, Drkev! Just a question. Recently I shielded the cavities of my Fender Nashville Telecaster, so, in order to do it, I obviously take off the strings. But, when all was shielded and I replaced the strings I found the action of the guitar noticeably higher and, as a consequence, the strings turned a little bit harder to pressure.¿What happened? I really like low action on my guitar, to the point of hearing a slight buzzing when the guitar is not pluged to the amp. What would you suggest to take my guitar to its initial condition. Thanks in advance!
In my experience when we take all the strings off, the saddles can flop around and the height adjustment screws get messed up. I really don't expect the neck relief to change. Try adjusting the saddle height and that should get you there. If it doesn't then you'll be adjusting neck relief. This is why I strongly recommend having the tools to measure your setups. When something is off, two simple measurements and you'll know exactly what to do to get back to where you were before. Good luck!
@@DrKevGuitar Thanks for your valuable advice! Just one more question: it's a myth the idea, rooted on popular lore on setups, of following an strict order of adjustments (1. truss rod, 2. Bridge Saddles, 3. Intonation)?
@@juancarlosmontero7895 No, not a myth. It's not critical but it's good practice. A truss rod adjustment could change the action measurement a little, so doing relief first speeds up the process, avoiding re-setting the action again after. Intonation is best done once relief and action are set. See my website for more info... drkevguitar.com/2014/08/19/truth-about-truss-rods-1/
Hey man this was exactly what I was trying to figure out. I have luckily multiple guitars now, and have been trying to understand how to do my own setups. I have been acquiring some sg juniors that I recently found out I love the sound of . BUT I’m a bit confused. The video helped me understand the string height relationship to the neck a bit better . The think with the sg junior is the neck joint is all the way at the end of the fret board, the 22nd fret. So I believe they truss rod in this case would create bow up past the 22th fret with this guitar type right? I noticed with this fret guru measuring card that from the 12 fret ,from the top of the fret to the string is about .125 of an inch high. And at the 22nd fret it is about .100 of an inch high. So the neck bows up a little, about .025 up of an inch at the 22nd fret . Considering If the truss rod does create bow that far up, would you say this is too much forward bow? I just drove 3 hours to get this guitar and it was rattling a bit and also a bit too sharp on its intonation.I lowered the wrap around bridge and it now intonated way better, I also have it a forward bow to get rid of rattle. For me it seems fine but I have no idea if I have it too much bow. I noticed my other junior that I haven’t touched , was set up in a way that the string heigh does go higher all the way up, I assumed it was set with a straighter neck. I think your video confirms that. Also Iv had a Taylor and other sg set up by luthiers with the string height going higher all the way up. So I guess those guitars are set with straighter necks. I have read though you typically don’t want too straight of a neck but the guitars seem fine. In the case of this sg junior, would you say that lowering in string height at the end of the fretboard points to too much forward bow? Could that damage the guitar? I have 3 juniors, the two I tweaked have the string height lower a tad at the end like this one. The other which I never tweaked I assume has a straighter neck. Considering my intonation isn’t too sharp anymore and it doesn’t rattle and the height at the 12th fret compared to the 22nd, would you say this seems okay? I went to a luthier who was shady with me before and overcharging and the other one I went to recently never is available to talk. So I really don’t know who to ask. I’d appreciate tour feedback. I just got this guitar and I guess I just hope nothing is wrong with the neck. I’m assuming it had backbow when I got it and I’m hoping I gave it adequate but not too much relief.
Don't worry too much about where the truss rod starts and stops. That's not that important. And don't worry about string height over the last fret, though I would not expect it to be less than the 12th fret, and yes that suggests too much relief. But that's not dangerous for the neck at all. If the neck relief is appropriate and the action over the 12th fret is good, everything else should be. I suggest adjusting first for a straight neck. Then adjust action for 0.070" on the low E string and 0.060" on the high E, over the 12th fret. Then add only the amount of relief necessary to avoid buzzing on the 1st five frets. That will get you close to Gibson factory spec. Some fret buzz may still occur but if you don't notice it when playing real music, you may not care. (I don't care).
Thanks a lot for that response. Yeah I was initially concerned about the relief because I wondered if I was having to over compensate for a warped neck. I’ll see what I can do thanks again.
@@user-yk4gd1fl4z Yes, that is “some”. Personally, the way I play, I would prefer a little more, and I generally recommend a little more, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with what you’ve got there at all. If you have no issues and are happy with it, you are good to go. 👍🏻
Less than a mm?? First, learn to play with a feather. The lower the action the more difficult it will be to avoid buzzing unless you play very lightly, no matter how you set the relief. Yes, a little neck relief will help but less than a mm is crazy low and for ost people the buzz will be unavoidable and hard to live with.
You may not have a problem. The low E string is lower tension than the other strings and will "flop around" more than the others. It abvsolutely will buzz if we strum hard enough. But if it's not intrusive when we actually play real music, we do not care and can ignore it. Solutions: Raise action more for that string, increase neck relief a little more, learn to strum strum lighter, try a lighter gauge guitar pick, try heavier gauge string. Possible setup issues a tech/lutheir will look for: nut slot cut too low, poor fret levelling, pickups raised to high.
Pieces of card, in fact old Paris metro tickets, 0.2 mm thick, placed at the position of the neck screws. I cut them about 1 cm wide, and use a hole punch for the neck screws to pass through. There is no reason for full pocket neck shims, in my opinion. I could probably do a video about that one day.
Im a little confused because my neck seems extremely straight, but i get fret buzz on the HIGHER frets0. Im pretty sure decreasing the relief would not help here. It must mean that i should probably raise the saddles at the bridge, right?
Ok, but the nut height does not necessarily coincide with the height of the frets. So, what if we incorporate nut height into equation? Clearly, we could make a "rectangle": straight line from the nut to the bridge which is parallel to perfectly straight neck. Isn't this the goal?
Absolutely not the goal. The nut really needs to be as low as possible or we end up with playability and intonation issues on the lowest frets. Besides, then what happens when we fret a note or use a capo? In effect we move the nut and it becomes zero height. We really need that everywhere. That’s why some guitars have a zero fret. Understand?
Yeah, never understood that straight neck fetish. If you can asset the action to go lower by playing with the trust bar or get rid of the buzzes, do it.
I have a les paul and press the first fret on the low e (capo) and the body fret (17th) and check at the seventh and set 10 thou. I’ve seen people using the last fret and when I do that I get 14 thou instead of 10? What about measuring on an SG and 335 would you still press the seventeenth fret down?
I generally do what you do (1st and 17th, measure 7th). (By the way, the best Les Pauls I played all measured 8 thou but do whatever works best for you). For SGs and other guitars where the neck really goes all the way to the body, yes, measure last fret and add about 4 thou to your target.
Gino Delucia That could indicate two things: 1) a twist in the neck, or 2) an error in our measurement or measuring technique. Either way, if the guitar plays well and you would never have noticed anything other than by measuring then you have absolutely nothing to worry about.
Why not raise the nut to the same height as the saddles so its the same action across the fretboard. Basically strings will be perfectly parallel with the fretboard
Because for the strings to be high enough to enable (as an example) strumming without intrusive string buzz, the nut would be too high. Playability and intonation would suffer greatly over the first 3 to 5 frets.
I wouldn't use the word "compromise". Relief is helpful. Too little hinders most players, as a general rule, and it's also possible to have too much. Within those limits there is room for personal preference.
I heave heard this many times. The straight neck is the only neck that allows low action. The issue is flat is right back bow is what causes the need for higher action. Thanks for this illustration. It only proves the point. Been doing great setups many years. I do not think this is the way.
Not everybody will agree with you. As a retired mathematician the first thing I notice by the desire to have relief in a neck is that you have destroyed an otherwise linear relation between the top of the, hopefully leveled frets, and the bottom of the string. On the other hand if you maintain the linear relation by having a straight neck then in the same manner that a straight board spanning two bricks laid on a level floor will have no issue vibrating given the bricks are high enough we have the same thing for a string with the boundary conditions being a straight neck with a saddle and nut of some given height. What is nice about the straight neck is that thru related rates one sees that a change in height at the nut results in 1/2 x (Change in Height) takes place at the 12th fret, where change in octave occurs, and likewise for a (Change in Height) at the saddle. This makes it very easy to lower the nut by say 10 thousands and raise the saddle by 10 thousands with the result being no change at the 12th fret with respect to distance between fret and bottom of strings. The overall effect in this example of the balancing action created by opposing changes is lowering the action 10 thousands at the nut and essentially the first fret, & raising the action 10 thousands at the saddle, but no change at 12th fret. On the other hand you don't have to maintain a current 12th fret setting and depending on circumstances make a change at just the saddle thus raise or lower near the saddle with half the change at the 12th fret, but nearly no change at the opposite end by the nut, or just the nut with 1/2 the change at the 12th fret, but nearly nothing at the opposite end by the saddle. Because you have a linear relation between string bottom and top of frets it's easy to calculate exactly what needs done to achieve an aim. Removing easy by removing linear gains what? Most people struggle with simultaneous equations thus making relations non-linear is just asking for issues with respect to easily achieving an aim as far as I am concerned. And as I pointed out the straight board spanning a level floor across the two bricks will vibrate very nicely if you tap it lightly or hard with a hammer, so why on earth place a dip in the floor between the bricks? The only reason I can see for adding relief is if you have string buzz with a straight neck and are unaware how to use saddle and nut adjustments to fix it and don't realize the nut is normally barely glued in place and comes off with a light tap allowing a new nut to replace it if called for, or sanding carefully the nut while in a simple jig to maintain square bottom if lower action is needed at first fret. Plus, Stewmac sells nuts for nearly every major guitar & blanks. Buy a few nuts and saddles and practice. The skill acquired is worth it's weight in gold by playability alone.
For optimum playability and to minimize problems with intonation on the lowest frets there is a vital constraint on the nut that you have forgotten: string height at the nut should be identical to that of the height of the frets. In the real world we add a little extra to allow for wear. The height of the nut really is non-negotiably as low as possible and you have to treat it as such. In fact, just ignore the nuts entirely and think about holding the string down at the 1st (or any) fret, which guitar players spend all their time doing. Now look at the problem. When the amplitude of string vibration can easily match the distance from the string to the fret, neck relief is an appropriate and excellent solution. If physicists and luthiers had a dime for every novela that retired mathematicians are engineers wrote them…!
@@DrKevGuitar Well as suggested let's assume you capo across the first fret which essentially is having your nut match the height of your 1st fret. Given the neck is straight, under this assumption if your top of saddle coincides with top of frets, where when the neck is positioned ideally, top of frets coincides with top of bridge your goose is cooked. You will have constant and intense fret-buzz. But, the top of saddle has zero or near zero string pressure on it and the whole arrangement with or without reflex will sound like crap. Suppose your saddle is not at top of the bridge and suppose your frets are level and the neck is straight. Then with capo across the first fret the height from the top of 12th fret to bottom of string, under ideal neck construction, is essentially 1/2 of the distance the saddle projects above the bridge. What ever need due to hammering the strings with the fist of god you can provide yourself with reflex you can also pick up by raising the saddle when the neck is straight, ideally constructed, and has level frets. Keeping the neck straight allows a simple linear relation to allow you to make informed calculations that are predictive with respect to outcome. Using reflex to obtain a similar result removes predictability and uniform proportionality along the strings path by replacing a known linear relation with an unknown non-linear relation and unknown can easily lead to frustration due to guessing outcomes due to changes as well as other issues involving the loss of proportional change along the strings path. Why make things harder than needed? Lastly, given your neck is straight, ideally constructed and the saddle projects above the bridge: suppose some fret downstream of the fret in front of your capo is high compared to others & causing fret-buzz. Well, depending on the offending frets location adding reflex might solve the issue, but why not have the frets leveled? I'd, here, consider adding reflex a temporary fix - right? In summary, if your guitar is a bit whacked and reflex is a temporary fix go for it. But if you do, dial it in with a straight neck first and add reflex after the fact would be my advice, but fix your guitar wins hands down for myself. By the way, jokes about mathematicians don't win arguments unless your competing in America's Got Talent and the argument is who has the better joke. They are also a sign of frustration and anger.
@@migalito1955 Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Do you really know better than all of the best guitar makers of the last almost 100 years? And this ta not even sure that you watch my video correctly at all. Just stop man. And it’s called RELIEF, not reflex. Goodbye and good luck.
@@DrKevGuitar You keep changing your argument. Now it's some assumption you have regarding all top 100 builders that I suspect you can't name because you don't know who they are. On the other hand I can give you plenty of legitimate sources that disagree with your technique including Rosa String Works who has been building and setting up instruments for over 40 years. As far as I am concerned your anger regarding "not everyone agrees with you" is clouding your judgement and more than a bit childish. As far as Relex rather than Relief typed by Google's auto correct, send Google your concerns considering surely you understood what was being implied by the symbol. Since you like jokes, what pertaining to physics beside nuclear reactors have melt downs. Surely you'll find the answer gazing in a mirror. Dunning Kruger effect? That's a good one. It's essentially a term pertaining to perception and bias where the holder of the perception can't back up their claim. Now who do you think that fits? Not you surely?
You DO want a straight neck! That is... If you want Tone and Sustain! Relief ROBS Tone! Edit: I have to add ..that "Action" is not the only way you need a neck shim. Also if you are all the way back with your saddle lets say, of your Low E string with a particular action... Shimming the Neck up or down can Lengthen or shorten the string length just that bit that you need.. Plus the Angle changes the Tone!
I'm sorry but you have been very poorly informed. High school trigonometry tells us that with 650 mm scale length (25.5") we have to add a HUGE 12mm (1/2") of saddle height to change the string length by just 1mm. Shimming is simply not useful for intonation. And there is no change in tone. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. This is exactly the reason I did the video to help remove this kind of overcomplicating nonsense that just isn't true. (In fact I've just done a series of videos about this kind of thing for US guitar tech and plek machine company, they'll be released very shortly). Of course if you can present some proof that I am wrong, by perhaps posting a video of your own, I will happily watch it. Best wishes!
@@DrKevGuitar m.th-cam.com/video/uUOB9tGy5HY/w-d-xo.html Listen very Carefully what Dan Earlewine and Bonermass' Tech are saying.. beginning 6:49 exact! I have to say, you're dead wrong! Not because Earlewine and tech also say what I say, but because relief does rob tone and sustain! Your Scale length (let's say a strat scale 25.5"): = from the string take-off point at the Nut, to the 12th fret, Times 2, plus a little wiggle room for Compensation. I did not mean shimming/ Tilting the neck IS for Compensation/ Intonation. I only countered you, claiming those Action problems would be the "ONLY" 2 reasons for changing the Neck Angle. So I gave you other reasons... (thinking of a problem i'm dealing with at the moment myself, having luckily found the solution this way, because my Low E was out of room, even with the spring removed from the saddle.. ) 1.If you put Relief in a Neck.. You'll be effectively "Shortening" the Total Length between nut and saddle! Doesn't matter if it's a Mile or a Kilometer.. It's shortened. A Truss Rod is there, to Counteract the Pull of the string, that's pulling a concave bow in the neck. You must know the difference in clarity of harmonics between a Shorter Scale (let's say 24.75")and a Longer scale like a Fender Stratocaster (25.5") There's already a big difference in Tone between those 2.. A Fender Strat's Frets being spaced along the 25.5" scale, it wants a certain length for the guitar to "ring" the best as it can! It's all about the frequency Resonance right!? I'm not saying Relief is bad, but it is a Compromise between Playability and Tone, meaning more Harmonic Richness with a straight neck vs perhaps a more even action around the neck overal.. You explained it perfectly in your video.. 2. If you Tilt your neck down (meaning: in playing position towards the back) you also change the string length from saddle to nut. Maybe it's very little, but enough to have that little extra length (room) what I needed to get that Low E intonated right without having to make drastic alterations like re-drilling my bridge.. It's the Ultimate balance between the Right "depth" at your Nut Slot vs Enough length and room for the strings to Ringgg. A Factory relief Strat (.012 for a 7.25" radius neck and .010 for a 9.5") sounds waaaaay different than a Straight neck (.002 to maybe .004) .. BIG Tonal difference, especially on a Les Paul!! Good Luck
You are right Klaus. A straight neck is stable, a bowed not. Especially with guitars with mahagony necks. If you touch the truss rod to adjust buzzing, you will never stop touching it.
I use the Pollock method. I turn the truss nut to the right. If it buzzes more, I go left. Rinse, repeat till buzz goes away. Then I leave my guitar alone until the humidity jumps from 45 to 65% . Then I brush up on my Polish. Can you speak Polish? How does it feel to be dumber than a Pollock?
Most luthiers agree with me. Also, no major manufacturer of guitars recommends a perfectly straight neck relief. As a result of this video I have been hired to do educational videos for companies offering luthier and guitar tech services (you’ll find some of them on my channel). And Ernie Ball Music Man refer their customers to this videos and some of my other videos (I’m a moderator on their forum).
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Probably the most helpful video on the interaction between the neck , saddles , and truss rod ive ever seen. Thank you very much good sir.
@@jarodreddig63 You are very welcome good sir!
I was always told to get low action you need a straight neck. You made perfect sense and it's clicked in my head! Thanks for the video and helping visualize what's going on.
Cheers!
Pleasure to help!
Thank you i been in this fight with strats about relife my friend told me the strighter the better but the feel is not as good so ill add some relife. what woulld you set your strat neck relife at ?
and Thank you im going to try 0.10 see what happens
And to think about this, the neck relief my Fender Telecaster with a 7.25" fret radius is spec'd by Fender to be 0.012". Twelve thousandths of an inch! The thickness of three sheets of standard white copy paper. If my relief is only 0.005" more for a total of 0.015", you can tell it when seting string height wherein you will NEVER attain proper relief all along the length of the neck. Intonation will be good at one section but never quite there at the other end and vice versa simply because you are stretching the string more, or less when fretting a particular note. The greater the fret radius, i.e., 9.5" or 12.5" which is a flatter profile the less relief is spec'd.. 9.5" to 12.% "gets 0.010" of spec'd relief. 15 to 17" gets .0.008" of neck relief.
Best explanation ever! I've been fighting high action above the 12th as all the techs in my area kept suggesting a straight neck after leveling.
80% correct. And most people that understand this much can fill in the rest. My only gripe is that he somewhat contradicted himself when saying the part of the neck connected to the body won't move, but then said it will with too much relief. It won't period. But, because there's such a variety of construction styles and body shapes, the point at which the neck is securely fastened to the body can be drastically different. Not every guitar will react the same from the same adjustment. Understanding that the string height can be adjusted by at least 3 variables on almost any modern guitar, is the whole point.
You have misunderstood what I said re: too much relief.
That is the most well explained video on the tube ...but could you give us some reference on How to set it up ?
That is the video I needed to understand what I felt I was missing on strings action. Well done!
Dr. Kev, I am also a player and guitar tech, and this is one of the most straightforward and logical explanations of neck relief, as it relates to string action, that I've encountered. Props to you and keep up the good work. It's amazing the difference we can feel in our fingers when we're making adjustments in tiny fractions of inches / centimeters!
Thank you, David!
You just fixed my partscaster! It had super high action after the 12th fret, the saddles on the lower strings were all the way up and still buzzing. I adjusted the neck relief and the action is lower and the fret buzz is gone. Thanks a bunch DrKev!
Another great video. Read through a few comments after, and I definitely agree that this explains the theory and geometry behind neck relief better than any other resource I've come across yet. Thanks for the run down.
You are very welcome and thank you for the comment!
Only found this now, about fucking time someone said this. I have moved into stringed instrument repair and setup with an engineering background and have been doing this for a long time, well done man. Having necks as straight as possible is an old wives tale and had no place in engineering
Thank you!
Have you ever leveled frets before?
Thanks for this Kev. You've taught me to love relief. I've fought against it all my life, the hideous banana necks of my youth would turn anyone into a rabid straight-necker (some of them are on here, forgive them, it's not their fault, it's the 1970s), but through your ancient wisdom I have learned to love The Bow.
I can even shoot arrows with my Strat now!
@@beandog100 😄
Thank you Dr. Kev for this video. I am starting to set up my own guitars and your video(s) are very informative and you explain better than any other videos on YT. Also no other person on YT has explained the interaction between relief and distance between the string and frets past 12. This comes in handy. I am setting up my Fender Jaguar which is my first setup.
Thank you so much for your comment!
You're awesome!!! Second video of yours I watch and immediately I've had burning questions answered that nobody else even addresses. For this video, I was wondering why you measure neck relief while fretting the body fret and not the last fret, and now I know! Thank you SO much for your videos! Subbed!
Recently changed all my guitars from 100% straight to having a bit of relief, instantly all the strings sound fuller acoustically and plays much better, buzz free
The truss rod is your best friend when it comes to doing seasonal adjustments or setups.
Absolutely
Saved me from years of worrying! Thanks mah guy!
You’re welcome!
Amazing video, I am finally closer to making my partscaster playable
Best video on neck relief
Thanks so much for explaining this so clearly , some knowledge here that I’ve been searching many years go
My neck is sort of straight with a little relief and I have low action but it works fine for me. I used to have a straight neck and it was a pain. A little relief fits me well.
This makes a lot of sense. The arguments for "dead straight" and "some relief" never mention the action above fret 12 which is as you say the prime reason to want to introduce neck relief.
I've never been into low action. I like to hit my strings hard. Also I learned on a guitar that had terribly high action so I'm just use to it now
@@frank-the-tank75 Great! So important to figure out what works for you. 👍🏻
thank you for the visuals. this helped clear up so much for me! I tossed my neck shim, not sure why my luthier put it in at all...
On most guitars if you can adjust the string height to your liking with saddle adjustments there is no need for a shim. (There are a few exceptions but not many).
Well let me say this thank you for clarifying this to me reason because I used to do what most people do straight neck and try to get low action but it was just hard to play because the guitar had so much stress in the neck, everythign cvhanged today i was trying to get rid off the fret buzz on my frets close to the nut and i started releasing the stress and to my suprise the action started lowering too and i was like why is this happening and i started googling and found your video with a great explanation about the subject thank you !
You’re welcome and thank you for your comment!
Super helpful and exactly what I needed thanks!
My man, right to the point clear as a bell, ty subscribed
This is by far the best explanation of neck relief I’ve ever seen! Sub’d!
Thank you!
I was waiting to see what was on the last few pieces of paper that you didn't show. I thought there was going to be a surprise, lol.
🤣 I’ll try to remember for next time!
Makes perfect sense. Thank you!
🍻
Brilliant! Thank you very much!
Thanks. I needed to understand this. I was reading that a straighter neck is easier to play. I’m finding that a neck with a good amount of relief is more comfortable for my wrist. My JP15 has a thin neck, so adding extra relief makes it feel better.
What works best for you is all that is important. The JP15 is an awesome guitar. Enjoy!
@@DrKevGuitar. Do you think thin necks make tendonitis and Carpal Tunnel worse?
@@willman100 I have no idea. A medical expert in both conditions is the only person I’d ask.
@@DrKevGuitar. I asked a doctor and a physiotherapist. They said whatever feels comfortable. I was just curious, in your opinion. Thanks.
@@willman100 Good to know! I cannot see a way it would really make a difference but as I said, I have no expertise in the hand/arm physiology. Thanks!
Nice presentation.
Thanks!
Omg, that's the best best best video on TH-cam! I have Music Man Silhouette from 1989, I am worry about the string height thing, at the nut lower and at the higher frets are higher, I'm worry about this thing until I watch this video, now I understand it, I was searching videos and I can't find a video about this thing but today I found your video and I"m so happy with it, so you are a really good man, THANKS A LOT !!!! :) :) I subbed to your channel ! :) I hope you make a video about how to set it up your Music Man Silo :)
Patesz I’m so glad you found it useful. Thanks so much for your comment. A setup video is planned.
@@DrKevGuitar Thank you so musch, i'm waiting it ! :) :) Now I'm watching your videos, love them :)
very good explanation.
Glad it was helpful!
I was intrigued with this idea, as it appeared to make perfect sense, and after listening to a lot of discussion on flat necks are better as peak amplitude isn't always over the 8th fret etc..
Here are the actual results of adding more relief to a strat neck which then allowed me to lower the bridge. Interestingly the action at the 7th stayed the same whilst the 17th fret action was now significantly lower.
Relief 0.04 Relief 0.08
1ST 7TH 12TH 17TH 1ST 7TH 12TH 17TH
E 0.4 0.92 1.49 1.87 E 0.41 0.93 1.43 1.61
B 0.53 0.84 1.37 1.72 B 0.44 0.91 1.37 1.58
G 0.42 0.78 1.27 1.56 G 0.41 0.81 1.23 1.42
D 0.38 0.99 1.45 1.73 D 0.4 1.05 1.43 1.65
A 0.39 0.91 1.3 1.63 A 0.42 1 1.32 1.59
E 0.62 1.03 1.31 1.74 E 0.64 1.06 1.28 1.65
The neck relief by itself didn't create all the effect, but in combination with a slight lowering of saddles created a better result.
well done
Perfectly flat necks are feasible but the fretboard has to be perfectly leveled, frets have to be leveled, nut slot height perfect and saddle height perfect.
I’ve played one guitar with a flawlessly flat neck with insanely low action and zero fret buzz. It was a Vigier. Also interesting thing about that guitar is that the neck has a perfectly flat radius too. It was an incredible guitar.
great video, would you be able to have a video showing a setup on a les paul? I am having all kinds of issues.
This is super logical/comprehensive/helpful, thanks! You really don't need tons of animation to make great youtube content..
I rised bridge action is so high now :D Need increase relief tomorrow better
Awesome little tutorial for me. Question, what can neck fret buzz on an electrical guitar lead to? Does that make unwanted noise to travel to pickups?
Это именно то, к чему лично пришел опытным путём.
Thank you! Your visual aids- the drawings- make all the difference in the world. So helpful!
To make your video even better, how about making up a guitar with a hard rubber neck? (You could call it the Flexocaster.) Then to illustrate your point, you could just bend the neck up or down. (Just a suggestion.)
Thank you Al. A drawing is much faster and cheaper than a rubber neck and just as effective. 🙂
Very useful sir. Thank you.
You’re very welcome and thank you for the comment!
So I tried this with a couple guitars and almost straight (.003") offer the best result. So when ppl say straight they probably mean very little relief. I used to have a lot of relief but now that I've tried little I'm hooked. It feels more even and responsive from top to bottom.
GREAT! I shoot for 0.008" (0.20 mm).
It is, there's math involved with it, the neck carries harmonics much better, intonation will be correct. People who have issues with straight necks don't have their frets leveled properly, I mean Kev here is onto something with wanting consistent action all across the fretboard, but if you reduce falloff on the frets past the first octave, you can have a guitar with really consistent, very low action as long as the nut height is correct. I have seen/played guitars with sub 1mm action height and no buzzing.
@@cephalopod1380 Yeah but the guitar has to be designed to be played with a straight neck. The part where he talks about shimming is why. If the neck angle is "wrong" in relation to the nut and bridge you won't be able to get a buzz free guitar with low action unless you add some relief. And most guitars have that issue. Suhr is one of those brands that don't. You can play them with low action and a straight neck.
Superb vid. Many thanks.
Thank you!
This is a great video, thanks. So, hypothetically if I have a straight neck with no buzzing, that’s totally fine? The straight neck does not do any other harm?
Totally fine, no harm whatsoever. A perfectly straight neck is not optimum for most people but if you like it, do it.
@@DrKevGuitar I'm struggling to lower the action on the low E to less than 7/64 without buzzing. I'm trying to straighten the neck to avoid the buzzing on the 8th to 12th frets but before to avoid the buzzing there I'm getting buzzing on the first two frets, so the only way to have no buzzing is to increase the bridge up to 7/64 on the low E. Any tips how can I get the low E on 5/64's without buzzing? Thanks
@@lazotashev8232 Try this: 1) adjust the neck perfectly straight. Then adjust the bridge/saddles for lowest acceptable action on frets 12 to 22. Play along to real music, don't listen in a quiet room for tiny buzzes. Compromise is key, a small amount of buzzing is acceptable if it's not intrusive when playing real music. 2) Then try playing elsewhere and adjust the neck relief ONLY. Once you have acceptable buzzing between frets 1 and 5, and acceptable buzz 15th to last fret, you should be good. Anything else, take it to a tech.
@@DrKevGuitar Thanks for your answer, to be honest, the buzzing is acceptable even now, I could only hear it when playing acoustically only and through an amp was fine with the action I wanted (5/64 low E and 3/64 high E). So I guess I'll play like that, thanks one more time.
You should know that the multitude of times you asked 'Is that helpful?' and 'Was that helpful?' that I nodded vigorously
Thank you! Is you’re neck feeling ok?
Excellent 👌
I never had a problem with high action or fret buzz. All my guitars have a slight concave bow. If you look down the neck if it has a barely visible slight bow it will be fine.Then you have to adjust the saddles or nut
Good video, very useful. Do you have a rule of thumb for setting up neck relief? Sounds like you capo the first fret and the other one at where the neck joins the body (15/16 ish). If you then take the mid point what amount of clearance would you start with before tweaking to perfection? Having just retired I’ve been really getting to grips with my truss rods, I used to always have some relief but recently purchased one of those notched out neck rulers and set my neck to almost totally flat and now have the best action I have achieved. I can see this is going to be a longer journey than I was expecting but definitely agree…. Don’t be afraid of the truss rod. I found that by doing a bit one day, playing and tweaking over a few days led to the best results…. compared with doing it in a frustrated busy weekend hurry. Retirement is great.
My "go to" setting is 0.20 mm (0.008"), that's from the top of the fret to the bottom of the low E string, measured with feeler gauges. In my experience that works really well for most people right away but of course feel free to adjust above or below that as you like. New video to come soon on measuring relief.
This is a great video.. Very well explained!!
I have a question though..
If I press simultaneously on the first and last fret on the low E string and there's no gap whatsoever between the string and the frets, like they are completely touching..
Is it only a truss rod issue?? Should I add more relief?
yes loosen it
Straight necks are absolutely the way to go. Get your frets leveled, properly. There's math involved with the placement of the frets, once you have a curve in the neck you've shortened the entire scale length and the intonation will never be correct. If you have a PLEK'd guitar you can have a perfectly straight neck. If you have buzzing and need to add relief, your frets are not level. I have several guitars that have a perfectly straight neck yes, that's 0.000" of relief. There is no buzzing whatsoever on them, and the intonation is amazing.
youve never had a jazzmaster
@@towardstar the question is: should there actually be a perfectly intonated jazzmaster?
Dead straight necks just choke out the notes and forces you to have the string height way too high. My recommendation is 10 thousandths of an ich holding the first fret and 17th fret down measuring at the 9th fret to the bottom of the string, after that my string height is the following measuring at the 17th fret (no frets held down)keep in mind you could capo the first fret to factor out the nut (If you don't have an 8 string just disregard the first two strings.)
E=4.5/64
B=4/64
E=4/64,
A=4/64,
D=3/64,
G=3/64,
B=3/64,
E=3/64
Then intonate the strings. These are the Abasi Concepts measurements will give you a very nice low action for fusion, jazz, and metal.
finaly someone explain it well ! thank u ... one question is it too much refiel if 24 fret is lower than 12fret?
Short answer: Well, if you like it that way, then it's ok.
Long answer: I would say that is too much neck relief and would not recommend such a setup. In this situation most people would have the saddles too low. In that situation they will find that the strings will buzz, and bending will "fret out", on the higher frets (15th fret and above) . Or, if that's not the case, the action may be too high from 7th to 12th frets to play comfortably.
It's not enough relief. If the 12th fret is higher than the 24th you have a back bowed beck. That means you have negative relief. You took relief out until it started to form a bump making the lower frets higher than the higher frets. Alternatively you could have uneven frets.
I have 2 guitars. One really cheap and the other really expensive. They both have the same problem. The thickest string won't intonate properly. It's always too sharp and i run out of room to adjust at the saddles. How do you fix this problem without un-screwing the whole bridge and relocating it? Thanks for the vids Doc!
This is a nut problem (slot cut too high, common problem). You need to file down the nut slot until the open string and the first fret both tune accurately (with a +/- cents tuner). Then intonate the string at the 12th fret (adjust bridge saddles) and you should find that the string intonates accurately right up the fretboard.
@@beandog100 thanks.
Nice! I subscribed. Cheers.
Thank you!
I've always read a neck shim on a Jaguar/Jazzmaster is recommended to increase break angle and raise the bridge. What are your suggestions?
Yes, if the break angle is too low and causes problems, simply raising the bridge makes action too high. A shim would be a good idea there.
@@DrKevGuitar a video discussing these floating bridges would be amazing! Your tutorials are extremely helpful
The least relief the better. As long as it plays well. Most guitars need more relief because they ain't all that great. If you have to shim it, do it. However, that usually means it was poorly made in the 1st place. Especially if the truss-rod won't hold. Truss-Rods are not meant to adjust string height. If you have .015-020 at the 7th or 8th fret and it's still not right, your neck may be less than nominal if not FUBAR. You can try shimming. You can try a fret level/ and go through the grits/polish or try a new neck. Or just get another guitar. PLAY it 1st. Never buy one by mail unless you know for sure what you are getting or want one to mod yourself. Don't pay for what you can get without the hassle or extra cost.
A good video forcsure.
Peter greens set up and claptons is an arrow strait kneck especialy with a les paul ...its 5000s of an inch especialy for les paul....next time u watch clapton check his guitar kneck its that strait you can actualy see it !...and peter green only ever kept it strait saying he never used the bass strings up high ...people always thought his action was too high!
what´s the approximate average measurement between too much and too little?
Too little would be a backbow (negative) and no manufacturer recommends more than 0.5 mm, so the average there would be 0.25 mm BUT most players prefer less than that. See my video here for my full guideline setup specifications...
th-cam.com/video/fPPcwB4TLCM/w-d-xo.html
Hi, Drkev! Just a question. Recently I shielded the cavities of my Fender Nashville Telecaster, so, in order to do it, I obviously take off the strings. But, when all was shielded and I replaced the strings I found the action of the guitar noticeably higher and, as a consequence, the strings turned a little bit harder to pressure.¿What happened? I really like low action on my guitar, to the point of hearing a slight buzzing when the guitar is not pluged to the amp. What would you suggest to take my guitar to its initial condition. Thanks in advance!
In my experience when we take all the strings off, the saddles can flop around and the height adjustment screws get messed up. I really don't expect the neck relief to change. Try adjusting the saddle height and that should get you there. If it doesn't then you'll be adjusting neck relief. This is why I strongly recommend having the tools to measure your setups. When something is off, two simple measurements and you'll know exactly what to do to get back to where you were before. Good luck!
@@DrKevGuitar Thanks for your valuable advice! Just one more question: it's a myth the idea, rooted on popular lore on setups, of following an strict order of adjustments (1. truss rod, 2. Bridge Saddles, 3. Intonation)?
@@juancarlosmontero7895 No, not a myth. It's not critical but it's good practice. A truss rod adjustment could change the action measurement a little, so doing relief first speeds up the process, avoiding re-setting the action again after. Intonation is best done once relief and action are set.
See my website for more info... drkevguitar.com/2014/08/19/truth-about-truss-rods-1/
Hey man this was exactly what I was trying to figure out. I have luckily multiple guitars now, and have been trying to understand how to do my own setups. I have been acquiring some sg juniors that I recently found out I love the sound of . BUT I’m a bit confused. The video helped me understand the string height relationship to the neck a bit better .
The think with the sg junior is the neck joint is all the way at the end of the fret board, the 22nd fret. So I believe they truss rod in this case would create bow up past the 22th fret with this guitar type right?
I noticed with this fret guru measuring card that from the 12 fret ,from the top of the fret to the string is about .125 of an inch high. And at the 22nd fret it is about .100 of an inch high. So the neck bows up a little, about .025 up of an inch at the 22nd fret .
Considering If the truss rod does create bow that far up, would you say this is too much forward bow?
I just drove 3 hours to get this guitar and it was rattling a bit and also a bit too sharp on its intonation.I lowered the wrap around bridge and it now intonated way better, I also have it a forward bow to get rid of rattle. For me it seems fine but I have no idea if I have it too much bow.
I noticed my other junior that I haven’t touched , was set up in a way that the string heigh does go higher all the way up, I assumed it was set with a straighter neck. I think your video confirms that. Also Iv had a Taylor and other sg set up by luthiers with the string height going higher all the way up. So I guess those guitars are set with straighter necks. I have read though you typically don’t want too straight of a neck but the guitars seem fine.
In the case of this sg junior, would you say that lowering in string height at the end of the fretboard points to too much forward bow? Could that damage the guitar? I have 3 juniors, the two I tweaked have the string height lower a tad at the end like this one. The other which I never tweaked I assume has a straighter neck. Considering my intonation isn’t too sharp anymore and it doesn’t rattle and the height at the 12th fret compared to the 22nd, would you say this seems okay?
I went to a luthier who was shady with me before and overcharging and the other one I went to recently never is available to talk. So I really don’t know who to ask. I’d appreciate tour feedback. I just got this guitar and I guess I just hope nothing is wrong with the neck. I’m assuming it had backbow when I got it and I’m hoping I gave it adequate but not too much relief.
Don't worry too much about where the truss rod starts and stops. That's not that important. And don't worry about string height over the last fret, though I would not expect it to be less than the 12th fret, and yes that suggests too much relief. But that's not dangerous for the neck at all. If the neck relief is appropriate and the action over the 12th fret is good, everything else should be. I suggest adjusting first for a straight neck. Then adjust action for 0.070" on the low E string and 0.060" on the high E, over the 12th fret. Then add only the amount of relief necessary to avoid buzzing on the 1st five frets. That will get you close to Gibson factory spec. Some fret buzz may still occur but if you don't notice it when playing real music, you may not care. (I don't care).
Thanks a lot for that response. Yeah I was initially concerned about the relief because I wondered if I was having to over compensate for a warped neck.
I’ll see what I can do thanks again.
God this guys sanctimonious.
There are reasons for using shims on offset guitars that have nothing to do with a need to restore action adjustment range at the saddles/bridge.
True! Though those reasons on offset guitars are to fix a specific problem (caused by design flaw).
i run .005 on my custom PRS. Is that "some" relief? No issues...
@@user-yk4gd1fl4z Yes, that is “some”. Personally, the way I play, I would prefer a little more, and I generally recommend a little more, but there’s absolutely nothing wrong with what you’ve got there at all. If you have no issues and are happy with it, you are good to go. 👍🏻
@@DrKevGuitar thank you. Yes. I imagine I’m somewhat of a lighter touch than most.
Third diagram (too much relief): What has caused the ~12th fret to be lower than the ~21st fret?
Hand drawing, I assume. No fret should be lower than any fret closer to the bridge.
So if I want low action less than a mm, would I need neck relief?
Less than a mm?? First, learn to play with a feather. The lower the action the more difficult it will be to avoid buzzing unless you play very lightly, no matter how you set the relief. Yes, a little neck relief will help but less than a mm is crazy low and for ost people the buzz will be unavoidable and hard to live with.
Hello! Everything seems fine for me but my 6th string buzzes when I strum a little heavier.
What is my problem? 😢
You may not have a problem. The low E string is lower tension than the other strings and will "flop around" more than the others. It abvsolutely will buzz if we strum hard enough. But if it's not intrusive when we actually play real music, we do not care and can ignore it.
Solutions: Raise action more for that string, increase neck relief a little more, learn to strum strum lighter, try a lighter gauge guitar pick, try heavier gauge string.
Possible setup issues a tech/lutheir will look for: nut slot cut too low, poor fret levelling, pickups raised to high.
What do you use for neck shims?
Pieces of card, in fact old Paris metro tickets, 0.2 mm thick, placed at the position of the neck screws. I cut them about 1 cm wide, and use a hole punch for the neck screws to pass through. There is no reason for full pocket neck shims, in my opinion. I could probably do a video about that one day.
Im a little confused because my neck seems extremely straight, but i get fret buzz on the HIGHER frets0. Im pretty sure decreasing the relief would not help here. It must mean that i should probably raise the saddles at the bridge, right?
Yes.
thanks @@DrKevGuitar
Ok, but the nut height does not necessarily coincide with the height of the frets. So, what if we incorporate nut height into equation? Clearly, we could make a "rectangle": straight line from the nut to the bridge which is parallel to perfectly straight neck. Isn't this the goal?
Absolutely not the goal. The nut really needs to be as low as possible or we end up with playability and intonation issues on the lowest frets. Besides, then what happens when we fret a note or use a capo? In effect we move the nut and it becomes zero height. We really need that everywhere. That’s why some guitars have a zero fret. Understand?
@@DrKevGuitar wow, I've never heard of a zero fret before, you've opened my eyes, mister :) Thanks!
Yeah, never understood that straight neck fetish. If you can asset the action to go lower by playing with the trust bar or get rid of the buzzes, do it.
Revelation Brother! THANKS!
I have a les paul and press the first fret on the low e (capo) and the body fret (17th) and check at the seventh and set 10 thou. I’ve seen people using the last fret and when I do that I get 14 thou instead of 10? What about measuring on an SG and 335 would you still press the seventeenth fret down?
I generally do what you do (1st and 17th, measure 7th). (By the way, the best Les Pauls I played all measured 8 thou but do whatever works best for you). For SGs and other guitars where the neck really goes all the way to the body, yes, measure last fret and add about 4 thou to your target.
Kevin Kretsch thanks, I’ve found about 8-10 thou really does the trick on les Paul’s.
What about the relief on the treble e string being .005 lower than the bass e string relief
Gino Delucia That could indicate two things: 1) a twist in the neck, or 2) an error in our measurement or measuring technique. Either way, if the guitar plays well and you would never have noticed anything other than by measuring then you have absolutely nothing to worry about.
Why not raise the nut to the same height as the saddles so its the same action across the fretboard. Basically strings will be perfectly parallel with the fretboard
Because for the strings to be high enough to enable (as an example) strumming without intrusive string buzz, the nut would be too high. Playability and intonation would suffer greatly over the first 3 to 5 frets.
@@DrKevGuitar so if youd make it parallel and very close to the fretboard the strings wouldnt have space to vibrate?
@@AbabBabab-il7iq No, you won't have enough space for the strings to vibrate. See this video here. th-cam.com/video/W9H9XjZne-A/w-d-xo.html
So, the relief is not an absolute, it's a compromise?
I wouldn't use the word "compromise". Relief is helpful. Too little hinders most players, as a general rule, and it's also possible to have too much. Within those limits there is room for personal preference.
Best explanation!! Thx so much, this was very helpful!
Thank you!
I heave heard this many times. The straight neck is the only neck that allows low action. The issue is flat is right back bow is what causes the need for higher action. Thanks for this illustration. It only proves the point. Been doing great setups many years. I do not think this is the way.
but thats a seriously high bridge
Not everybody will agree with you.
As a retired mathematician the first thing I notice by the desire to have relief in a neck is that you have destroyed an otherwise linear relation between the top of the, hopefully leveled frets, and the bottom of the string.
On the other hand if you maintain the linear relation by having a straight neck then in the same manner that a straight board spanning two bricks laid on a level floor will have no issue vibrating given the bricks are high enough we have the same thing for a string with the boundary conditions being a straight neck with a saddle and nut of some given height.
What is nice about the straight neck is that thru related rates one sees that a change in height at the nut results in 1/2 x (Change in Height) takes place at the 12th fret, where change in octave occurs, and likewise for a (Change in Height) at the saddle. This makes it very easy to lower the nut by say 10 thousands and raise the saddle by 10 thousands with the result being no change at the 12th fret with respect to distance between fret and bottom of strings. The overall effect in this example of the balancing action created by opposing changes is lowering the action 10 thousands at the nut and essentially the first fret, & raising the action 10 thousands at the saddle, but no change at 12th fret.
On the other hand you don't have to maintain a current 12th fret setting and depending on circumstances make a change at just the saddle thus raise or lower near the saddle with half the change at the 12th fret, but nearly no change at the opposite end by the nut, or just the nut with 1/2 the change at the 12th fret, but nearly nothing at the opposite end by the saddle. Because you have a linear relation between string bottom and top of frets it's easy to calculate exactly what needs done to achieve an aim. Removing easy by removing linear gains what?
Most people struggle with simultaneous equations thus making relations non-linear is just asking for issues with respect to easily achieving an aim as far as I am concerned. And as I pointed out the straight board spanning a level floor across the two bricks will vibrate very nicely if you tap it lightly or hard with a hammer, so why on earth place a dip in the floor between the bricks?
The only reason I can see for adding relief is if you have string buzz with a straight neck and are unaware how to use saddle and nut adjustments to fix it and don't realize the nut is normally barely glued in place and comes off with a light tap allowing a new nut to replace it if called for, or sanding carefully the nut while in a simple jig to maintain square bottom if lower action is needed at first fret. Plus, Stewmac sells nuts for nearly every major guitar & blanks. Buy a few nuts and saddles and practice. The skill acquired is worth it's weight in gold by playability alone.
For optimum playability and to minimize problems with intonation on the lowest frets there is a vital constraint on the nut that you have forgotten: string height at the nut should be identical to that of the height of the frets. In the real world we add a little extra to allow for wear. The height of the nut really is non-negotiably as low as possible and you have to treat it as such. In fact, just ignore the nuts entirely and think about holding the string down at the 1st (or any) fret, which guitar players spend all their time doing. Now look at the problem. When the amplitude of string vibration can easily match the distance from the string to the fret, neck relief is an appropriate and excellent solution.
If physicists and luthiers had a dime for every novela that retired mathematicians are engineers wrote them…!
@@DrKevGuitar
Well as suggested let's assume you capo across the first fret which essentially is having your nut match the height of your 1st fret.
Given the neck is straight, under this assumption if your top of saddle coincides with top of frets, where when the neck is positioned ideally, top of frets coincides with top of bridge your goose is cooked.
You will have constant and intense fret-buzz. But, the top of saddle has zero or near zero string pressure on it and the whole arrangement with or without reflex will sound like crap.
Suppose your saddle is not at top of the bridge and suppose your frets are level and the neck is straight. Then with capo across the first fret the height from the top of 12th fret to bottom of string, under ideal neck construction, is essentially 1/2 of the distance the saddle projects above the bridge.
What ever need due to hammering the strings with the fist of god you can provide yourself with reflex you can also pick up by raising the saddle when the neck is straight, ideally constructed, and has level frets.
Keeping the neck straight allows a simple linear relation to allow you to make informed calculations that are predictive with respect to outcome.
Using reflex to obtain a similar result removes predictability and uniform proportionality along the strings path by replacing a known linear relation with an unknown non-linear relation and unknown can easily lead to frustration due to guessing outcomes due to changes as well as other issues involving the loss of proportional change along the strings path.
Why make things harder than needed?
Lastly, given your neck is straight, ideally constructed and the saddle projects above the bridge: suppose some fret downstream of the fret in front of your capo is high compared to others & causing fret-buzz. Well, depending on the offending frets location adding reflex might solve the issue, but why not have the frets leveled? I'd, here, consider adding reflex a temporary fix - right?
In summary, if your guitar is a bit whacked and reflex is a temporary fix go for it. But if you do, dial it in with a straight neck first and add reflex after the fact would be my advice, but fix your guitar wins hands down for myself.
By the way, jokes about mathematicians don't win arguments unless your competing in America's Got Talent and the argument is who has the better joke. They are also a sign of frustration and anger.
@@migalito1955 Have you heard of the Dunning-Kruger effect? Do you really know better than all of the best guitar makers of the last almost 100 years? And this ta not even sure that you watch my video correctly at all. Just stop man. And it’s called RELIEF, not reflex. Goodbye and good luck.
@@DrKevGuitar
You keep changing your argument. Now it's some assumption you have regarding all top 100 builders that I suspect you can't name because you don't know who they are. On the other hand I can give you plenty of legitimate sources that disagree with your technique including Rosa String Works who has been building and setting up instruments for over 40 years.
As far as I am concerned your anger regarding "not everyone agrees with you" is clouding your judgement and more than a bit childish.
As far as Relex rather than Relief typed by Google's auto correct, send Google your concerns considering surely you understood what was being implied by the symbol.
Since you like jokes, what pertaining to physics beside nuclear reactors have melt downs. Surely you'll find the answer gazing in a mirror.
Dunning Kruger effect? That's a good one. It's essentially a term pertaining to perception and bias where the holder of the perception can't back up their claim. Now who do you think that fits? Not you surely?
In the first diagram why would anyone have a saddle that high?
Because it's a hand-drawn diagram for the purposes of clarity and instruction and not to scale?
@@DrKevGuitar I appreciate it’s exaggerated but why wouldn’t the saddle and nut be located so that the strings sit parallel to the straight neck?
O.K.
You DO want a straight neck! That is... If you want Tone and Sustain! Relief ROBS Tone! Edit: I have to add ..that "Action" is not the only way you need a neck shim. Also if you are all the way back with your saddle lets say, of your Low E string with a particular action... Shimming the Neck up or down can Lengthen or shorten the string length just that bit that you need.. Plus the Angle changes the Tone!
I'm sorry but you have been very poorly informed. High school trigonometry tells us that with 650 mm scale length (25.5") we have to add a HUGE 12mm (1/2") of saddle height to change the string length by just 1mm. Shimming is simply not useful for intonation. And there is no change in tone. None. Zero. Zip. Zilch. This is exactly the reason I did the video to help remove this kind of overcomplicating nonsense that just isn't true. (In fact I've just done a series of videos about this kind of thing for US guitar tech and plek machine company, they'll be released very shortly). Of course if you can present some proof that I am wrong, by perhaps posting a video of your own, I will happily watch it.
Best wishes!
@@DrKevGuitar m.th-cam.com/video/uUOB9tGy5HY/w-d-xo.html Listen very Carefully what Dan Earlewine and Bonermass' Tech are saying.. beginning 6:49 exact! I have to say, you're dead wrong! Not because Earlewine and tech also say what I say, but because relief does rob tone and sustain! Your Scale length (let's say a strat scale 25.5"): = from the string take-off point at the Nut, to the 12th fret, Times 2, plus a little wiggle room for Compensation. I did not mean shimming/ Tilting the neck IS for Compensation/ Intonation. I only countered you, claiming those Action problems would be the "ONLY" 2 reasons for changing the Neck Angle. So I gave you other reasons... (thinking of a problem i'm dealing with at the moment myself, having luckily found the solution this way, because my Low E was out of room, even with the spring removed from the saddle.. )
1.If you put Relief in a Neck.. You'll be effectively "Shortening" the Total Length between nut and saddle! Doesn't matter if it's a Mile or a Kilometer.. It's shortened.
A Truss Rod is there, to Counteract the Pull of the string, that's pulling a concave bow in the neck.
You must know the difference in clarity of harmonics between a Shorter Scale (let's say 24.75")and a Longer scale like a Fender Stratocaster (25.5")
There's already a big difference in Tone between those 2..
A Fender Strat's Frets being spaced along the 25.5" scale, it wants a certain length for the guitar to "ring" the best as it can! It's all about the frequency Resonance right!?
I'm not saying Relief is bad, but it is a Compromise between Playability and Tone, meaning more Harmonic Richness with a straight neck vs perhaps a more even action around the neck overal..
You explained it perfectly in your video..
2. If you Tilt your neck down (meaning: in playing position towards the back) you also change the string length from saddle to nut. Maybe it's very little, but enough to have that little extra length (room) what I needed to get that Low E intonated right without having to make drastic alterations like re-drilling my bridge..
It's the Ultimate balance between the Right "depth" at your Nut Slot vs Enough length and room for the strings to Ringgg.
A Factory relief Strat (.012 for a 7.25" radius neck and .010 for a 9.5") sounds waaaaay different than a Straight neck (.002 to maybe .004) .. BIG Tonal difference, especially on a Les Paul!!
Good Luck
You are right Klaus. A straight neck is stable, a bowed not. Especially with guitars with mahagony necks. If you touch the truss rod to adjust buzzing, you will never stop touching it.
Yep, Klaus, is 100% correct here.
I don't trust the science but i do trust the math and the numbers don't lie. The doctor is correct, you need some reliefe.
I use the Pollock method. I turn the truss nut to the right. If it buzzes more, I go left. Rinse, repeat till buzz goes away. Then I leave my guitar alone until the humidity jumps from 45 to 65% . Then I brush up on my Polish. Can you speak Polish? How does it feel to be dumber than a Pollock?
If you are Billy Corgan, you do want a straight neck. that's what put the magic in his magic strat.
Yeah but billy is a dumb ass.
Steve Buscemi Guitar Tech
Not true ask a luthier
Most luthiers agree with me. Also, no major manufacturer of guitars recommends a perfectly straight neck relief. As a result of this video I have been hired to do educational videos for companies offering luthier and guitar tech services (you’ll find some of them on my channel). And Ernie Ball Music Man refer their customers to this videos and some of my other videos (I’m a moderator on their forum).
Your diagram at 1:00 depicts a guitar that needs a neck reset, that is why your assumptions are flawed.
This makes claims without really explaining any of it.
Dude Love what you're doing but please don't mumble in a low volume of what you're saying Cant understand you