Hi Jerry, Don here from Hamilton NZ on my Wife's tablet-SUSAN, just want to say I always love your videos excellent little tips I can use, I'm an old guy now ( 73yrs. soon, playing guitar since 12 but these last few years I make improvements to my guitar's, it makes 'em sound better) thanks again for the help, regards Don 😊
Hi Jerry; I agree with you wholeheartedly about a flat fret board. I would just add flat, when the strings are tuned. A flat fret board will always give you slightly more clearance on the next lower fret as you go down the board. Thus if the first fret doesn't buzz, none will, if the frets are leveled. That's as good as it gets. I don't put truss rods in my instruments at all. So far I haven't had any problems, except on a very long scale bass with a short body and a very thin neck. It was my first bass and was a good learning tool. I plan to reinforce the neck some day rather than add a truss rod. The neck is thin enough to allow the reinforcement. Your comments on this are easier to understand than any other comments on the subject that I have heard or read. Thanks for sharing this video.
I own a violin restoration shop. I learned a lot watching you today appreciate all the info. Farrell and Farrell violin. You are so correct. There's always room to learn. Thank you
I' m 68 years old & been playing guitar & fiddle &mandolin since my early 20's & your the first guy I've ever met that feels exactly the way I do about neck relief & action adjustment ! I've always(most of the time) had to do my own repair work & adjustments on my instruments being a full time working musician, but by no means a Luthier.But I did learn enough from books etc.(time before computers!) to keep my babies & living makers playable.I want to say that I have never seen anyone on you tube or anywhere else on the internet with your patience and dedication with attention to detail in the magnificent repairs on a variety of stringed instruments as you Jerry.I have degenerative dics disease in my neck so I've had to slow down in performing.Anyway,keep up the great work my friend !
I'm an "OK" player and have no luthier aspirations, but I have to say that what you say here is exactly what I have come to believe about relief and action adjustment. I'm a city boy with no fencepost experience, but a year ago I adjusted relief to "almost 0" by eye, looking down the neck, and upon measuring relief with feeler gauges, it came out to 0.010". Also, my playing experience is that you might need more relief (or even higher action) if you have lighter strings; your point about wider string vibration with light strings is on the mark. I've mostly been playing an archtop the past year (1947 L7), and I love that I can adjust the action, bass and treble, at the saddle via the bridge adjustment screws. As you point out, truss-rod and action adjustment affect each other, and I have found myself iterating to get it all right, especially when I experiment with string gauges. I don't agree that they should eliminate adjustable truss rods, though, because when I put on heavier strings (I tried .014's for a while), they tend to bend the neck as well as change the overall neck angle, and tightening up the truss rod can then remove what you call the underbow created by the heavy string tension. I also agree with you that the advantage of relief is mainly for people who play near the nut; for example, bluegrass rhythm players who hit the strings really hard. But if you play up the neck, relief - or at least, too much of it - can hurt you. It's good to get validation of what I've come to believe from someone with greater authority, so thank you for this and your other informative videos.
Aloha Jerry, I had to smile about the fence posts. When I was young my dad and grandfather took great pride on the straightness of their fence lines, the straightness of their plow furrows, and the straightness of their planted rows. Going to town on Saturday nights was always passed looking at others row straightness and the amount of weeds in the fence row and crops. Back in the days when simple pride in your work went a long way.
I use the truss rod to straighten the neck as flat as possible for a setup. When I string the guitar and tune to pitch it gives me the relief needed. This has always worked for me. In other words YOU ARE RIGHT plain and simple. I’ve seen guitars that folks try to adjust the action with the truss rod it’s usually a nightmare trying to loosen the over tightened truss rod with a chance of breaking the rod. Guitars should come with a warning about tightening the truss rod. Where I disagree with you is I believe an adjustable truss rod is a God send for doing a setup. It’s hard to believe Martin guitar waited until around the 1980’s to install adjustable truss rods. I’ve noticed you are passionate when you explain things that’s a good thing, please don’t ever don’t change.
No need to apologize sir. It's always good to clarify things for those who don't entirely understand. I love a quote I once read that goes something like - correct a wise man and he will thank you. Correct a fool and he will hate on you.
A great video. We have 2 Martin 0018s in the family. A 1966 and a 1948 and neither of them have truss rods. I never look at the "relief" or "under bow" on them. I set the action on the 1948 by lowering the saddle a bit, but that is all. Both play as well as they did when they came from the factory (at least the '66 does and I was only a year old when the '48 was built) so "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"! Thanks again Jerry.
I'm supporting you on this Jerry. I've been setting up instruments for many years. A lot of the older instruments don't even have truss rods, they aren't necessary. They are just a little insurance to give the guitar neck a little help if it starts to bow. I don't even subscribe to the idea that string tension will EVER make a neck bow. The lignon in the wood doesn't take a new shape because of strain. If it did all the big old trees would be bent to the ground. Abuse is what usually bends a neck, leaving it in a car or trunk in the sun, storing it too near a heater or letting the wood get too moist. Then the strings might have some influence on the wood but the truss rod is not for action adjustment, it's for relief CORRECTION only. A little positive relief is okay, some like it but straight dead flat will work, too. The action is a different adjustment altogether! Don't use the truss rod to adjust action- even if it does this, it's doing it by bending the neck which is not a variable.. it should be right and stay right. Set up the guitar's adjustments in the right order. Setting up a banjo is a real lesson since everything is a variable including head tension which affects bridge height, too but you don't set head tension for bridge height, you set it for tone first and leave it alone.
I know exactly what you mean about the fencepost thing. As a teenager I would swear that my line was strait, only for the posts to go off the perpendicular on tensioning the wire. Now I'm an "old git" I can line them up perfect every time, well almost every time! Practice don't always make perfect, but it sure helps. Blessings on your house and tribe Jerry.
And they say that you just put old people out to pasture. Jerry, your stuff is just getting better with age. Well, that's just another old guy's opinion! THANKS SO MUCH AGAIN!
I guess the best comment I can write down is : I would send you any of my guitars for repair in case it was needed. In my book you are among the best there.
Nice to see that I’m not alone in getting the most out of the truss rod. It will help make any guitar sound better with the combination of good nut and saddle installations.
Thank you, Jerry! You have reinforced suspicions that I have had about the truss rod issue. I was a poor boy with no power tools when I made my two guitars. The first I put a quarter inch steel bar in my hand chiseled neck channel to try to keep it straight, the second I used the old Martin method with a 3/8" metal (bought from Stew Mac I believe) tube. Despite my less than professional workmanship, both necks are straight, and play fine all the way up. I love your common sense approach! You do beautiful work.
The more I become experienced, the less measuring stuff I use. But I was one of them at the beginning, making necks with 'underbow' in the belief that this was ok. And never was satisfied about it. Now I make them dead flat and let the strings do the work for me. Great video!
The thing about Jerry is..................1) His common sense approach is just downright solid. 2) Before asking a question, do a search of his RSW TH-cam site. Odds are that he has already covered the topic. 3) If you follow his lead on setup (from grinding bone for nuts and saddles to truss rod/relief issues) you can save yourself a lot of grief - and maybe save your guitar!
Guitar player 40+ years, set them up almost every way possible. The more experienced I became, the more I can say that on the neck bow / relief topic, Jerry is spot-on correct.
I also got a good "eyeball" test when checking out a guitar. Then I take a straight edge steel ruler and get that neck as straight as possible. Then back it off if there is stings a buzzing. Learned this with years of frame carpentry experience..... A little worried bout messing with nut and saddle, I leave that to you guys....also applies to any high frets. Sometimes you can just avoid that part of the fretboard, like on the 1st fret high f note. I can play around that one. Maybe the high c, but not that g#..... You are spot on and I concur with your rant. I have the same rant.... Bigbox music stores will hang a guitar on the wall with an obvious bow. They always say, some players want it that way... I call BS! Keep up your goid work!.....TKS.
As always an awesome video. Yes, you can line up the frets and bridge. All the older guys use to do that. Back in the day, there was not a lot of tools and knowledge around. To do this work. TH-cam has not been around all that long. So I use to follow all the old-timers in my area to get knowledge and tricks. Thanks for sharing the video.
I thank you so much for this video. I have a number of guitars, electric and acoustic, and I play them all. I guess I have become a collector in my old age. But I am also living on a tight budget, so I tend to buy guitars that are less than $400. I have bought a couple of these less expensive guitars. In almost every way, they are perfect for me, but not right out of the box. So, I have had to learn how to set up my own guitars. All of them were less than what I would call perfect right out of the box. My biggest complaint has been action and intonation. Well, you were talking about underbow and how, when you press down on the string where it is at its highest distance from the fretboard, and how it can make the string hit the higher frets, I have learned that, even if you can make it clear the hump where the neck joins the body, you are stretching the string far enough that you actually pull it sharp. There goes your intonation. The same thing is true if you have too much clearance between the first fret, that is, the nut is not cut deep enough. You can have the intonation set at the twelfth fret, but try to play a low F, the 6th string at the first fret. If there is too much clearance, you end up playing a note that is closer to an F# than to an F. After all this, I just want to say: Jerry, thanks to you and what I have learned about setting up a guitar from you, all my guitars play clearly, easily, and every note is in tune.
@4:19 You've developed the "Micrometer Eye"; the result of years of careful conditioned attenuation. I have it too, mostly from drafting, construction and machine work. I can tell out of level, out of square, out of parallel, out of plumb, out of true down to a 1/16 in or about a millimeter. But the older I get, the need for more light and magnification has increased exponentially, especially the small stuff. I've also developed "Torque Elbow" (tighten it until the elbow clicks, back off a quarter, and down 2 Aleve.) along with "Stoichiometric Sinus" "Multimeterfinger" and "Computer Control Diagnostic Ear"
I have been watching the RSW videos for quite a while now; since before I sent Mr. Rosa my back-of-the-closet koa acoustic to get straightened out, and it never ceases to amaze me that every time I tune it, I keep on learning something new! Pretty exciting :D Thank you!
I set mine flat,and action low.I have learned to play with a soft touch after 50 years of playing.p.s., thanks to you and Randy S. for all the knowledge you have shared.
Hallelujah! Thank you!!! Finally, someone talking common sense about neck relief. Can't even count how many times I've experienced someone trying to eliminate fret buzz by adding monstrous relief. Not only does that cause MORE fret buzz higher up, but also destroys intonation and playability in the middle of the neck. I have both my shred (low action) and my blues guitars (high action) set up with almost no relief. I have NO buzz, even when doing 2 whole-step bends on Strats w/ vintage 7 1/2" radius fretboards. Bless you Jerry!
I agree with you on this. I shoot for .010 relief on my guitars, and I bought tools as needed. I don’t have to deal too much with humidity/temperature problems where I live, and I haven’t touched a truss rod in so long that I forgot where I put my tools for that. Changing string gauge sure, humidity sure, action adjustment not. I’ve been playing for close to 60 years, so we had to learn these things by actually finding and talking to people. Imagine that. 🤠
Great video, everything is understood, Sir! A new moment to me was the fact that if you have under bow and press a string at the 8`th fret, you move the string to a "much" lover distance over the higher frets and can introduce buzzing.
Another great vid. All guitars leave my shop with a dead flat, straight neck - and I mean straight edge straight! My methods differ only slightly from yours. I apprenticed under one of the worlds great builders, Sergei de Jonge. He’s one of the very few guitar builders who has an amazing reputation in both the steel string and nylon worlds. He taught me to build guitars with only 6 power tools, everything else was hand tools. He also taught me to sight a neck. If you have the nack, you have it - and it will improve as you gain experience. I feel it’s the major key to my success as a repair/restore luthier - my ability to sight a neck. - I just could do it right out of the gate, and I now have great faith and trust in my ability to make an accurate initial “read” for setups.
Apparently, four so-called repairpersons just got through giving lengthy explanations to clients, about how crucial or mandatory or something it is to have a good, visible amount of relief on the fretboard, then watched this spot-on video.
Great video. I'll do you one better though, I can now feel whether a neck is bowed or flat or otherwise. You can just feel it especially if it's under bowed. It's a spongey feeling in the strings that, I can dial out by just feeling it. What I see an awful lot which is irritating, is when a nut has been filed with the neck under bowed. You straighten out the neck and either end up replacing the nut which is now too low, or shimming it, which is never my preferred method. Also, the thing with sighting a neck that nobody explains, is simply to follow the shadow of the strings. Once you work that out its really easy to see high frets and the curve in the neck. Also really easy to see if a neck is twisted by sighting it. Seen HEAPS of those bent necks, always twisted toward the treble side. Edit: I also run my own guitars with the neck totally straight and a touch higher action than factory recommends. I find they play way nicer and don't choke anywhere that way while bending notes.
Thanks Jerry. As we discussed before, I too was under the impression you could adjust the action or the angle of the neck with the truss rod. I think you laid it out very well and I understand it a lot better now. Thanks for your words of wisdom. In my case the only way to fix my issue is with a neck reset, and I think based upon how much I play, it wouldn't be cost effective.
You are one of the last persons to justify your approaches. What you do is always brilliant and comes from a long experience. And obviously, it works perfectly all the time. So don't let people try to tell you something different. Maybe, ignoring them is the best way to go. Before TH-cam etc. there were also no people that came to your shop to critisise you. ;) Thanks for being who you are! Best wishes! :)
One of the things an old timer told me is that a LITTLE neck relief (under full string tension) is a good way of not over tighting a truss rod. Sometimes a hair pass perfectly straight equals a damaged truss rod. Joe Walsh does like more neck relief than I like. But he’s Joe Walsh! So it’s good. Lol. You can hear the sting tap on one or two of my frets in the center (with extra light strings under full tension) on my electric. That tap is with a low string pushed down at the first and the 14th fret to check neck relief ( after I check to make sure the neck is straight and the frets are level).. But I can’t see between the string and fret. And the truss rod is just snug at that point. That’s the way I like it.. I bought a used Gibson Midtown you could drive a truck under ( with a string pushed down at the first and 14th fret). Ok, a little exaggeration there. But it played fine. I honestly didn’t know the neck was bowed until I checked it. When I straightened up the neck, it buzzed at the upper frets because the strings were too low at the nut now. Somebody did that set up on purpose because that’s the way they liked it. To me that’s neck bow. But it was still easily corrected by the truss rod. No permanent damage. Just need a new nut to suit my set up. Lol. I’m not OCD. Honest. Lol.
Glad you discussed neck relief and truss rod affects. For the last two guitars I have built there are no truss rods, just two carbon fiber rods in each. When I attached the fretboards there was a very slight overbow (intentional) which was corrected when the guitars were strung up, resulting in ramrod-straight necks. I used carbon fiber for two reasons; one is a test to see if the neck will bow, and the second is that there is no cavity in the neck for a truss rod and no metal either. Results: after 6 months of medium gauge strings at concert pitch there has been no measureable (+- .005") change in neck alignment. These two guitars have better sustain that others I have built and I attribute that to "strength down the middle" as espoused by people I trust as true experts. These straight necks are very playable with either light or medium gauge strings and 2.0 mm. action at the 12th. I am monitoring these necks quite closely; so far so good. I am working towards the day when truss rods are no longer necessary, and neck angle is user-adjusted easily and without a re-set.
I've been having a little trouble with an over lively mahogany ( i know,lively?) guitar,and tried a whole bunch of stuff to un stiffen it and make it a little more friendly,i took the relief out of the neck and BINGO.thanks man.
Good morning Jerry very informative session and like you said I'd rather have mine flat than bowed you and the family have a great weekend my friend take care buddy
Well Jerry, I agree with you on about 98% of your philosophy of neck relief and action the only thing I have is truss rods are necessary but you are right on most people don't know how to use them.
Very enlightening . I've wondered about the fidget nut under the little plastic cover . Just thought it was their for itchy handed teens to tinker with .
I agree with every word you say, Jerry. I have several guitars and have never messed with truss rods, not because I'm scared to, but because I've never needed to. I do have 2 classical guitars, in fact one of them is my daily play. I've seen and played a LOT of classical guitars, and never seen one with a truss rod! Yeah I know, there's more pressure on a steel string, but there is still pressure on a classical too, but no builders seem to think a truss rod is necessary!
Classical guitars generally have thicker necks and low tension strings. However quite a few classical guitars are now being built with truss rods because they have introduced high tension strings. Also some of the hybrid Classical's have truss rods as the necks are thinner. My classical has a truss rod and I will put one in the classical I plan to build. Truss rods are cheap and I see it as insurance.
Your courageous. I've set my own guitars up for ever, I knew what 10,000 of and inch meant long ago, and decided that for simplicity in working on my herd of guitars, straight was fine. Going for straight necks means that one's goals (straightness) is easy to define and achieve because most tools (especially sanding and measuring tools) are straight. But even when I show a guitar tech how easy my guitars are to play, he/she will be certain that that 10 or whatever thousandths of an inch of relief is sacred. The difference between dead straight (with stings tuned to pitch) and 10,000's of an inch relief is, as you say, ridiculously small, yet people, who can't afford a tech and are intimidated from leveling their own frets and are being put off from fixing very nasty necks on their guitars because they don't know how to get the"relief" and the slight added complexity of relieving a neck as you level frets is usually the most common "variable" that stops them from even trying to get their guitar to play well. It's way better if the beginning guitarist just gets his action corrected with a straight neck, if only to eliminate one more variable when learning. The goal is to have a playable guitar, and that means that more people will decide to learn to level their own frets or work their day jobs to afford a guitar techs labor. I'm not saying a straight neck is "correct". I'm saying it's easier to achieve, and easier for the beginner to understand and do, and that laser straight finished frets frets are nearly indistinguishable (and perfectly wonderful to play) from a relieved neck (frets).
You mentioned the creators you watch. I looked at your subscribed list and was blown away. Great minds as they say. You are subscribed to 3/4 of the same channels that I sub to. I guess old telephone men have a lot of the same interest.
Great tip on the flush cutters, but a word of warning... the jaws will dent and ding on hard metals. My flush cutters will dent if cutting steel guitar strings, so I use them only for pulling, and nipping non stainless frets and cutting nylon or bronze strings.
Flatten out the neck, dress and level frets... String up and go. It always works out on a healthy, well made guitar, with moderate gauge strings for both electrics and acoustics, heavier strings might cause excessive relief if your guitar's not handling the tension well and then sure, with care and in small increments adjust the relief (but better to use the right strings). Regarding assessment of relief and fretwork: I do own a fret rocker too but rarely need it. Sighting down the neck like it's a railway line also works for me to gauge whether choking will occur anywhere or if the setup is otherwise rubbish. So basically I agree with the whole video. regarding terminology: I call 'over bow' 'back bow' and I call 'under bow' 'excessive relief'. I see the truss rod purely as a device for stablising the neck and providing a means to balance the tension in the neck against string pull. I live in the UK and my truss rod on my guitars never needs adjustment. Set it and forget it. I think overwhelmingly people who set instruments up well will fully agree with you. Now you must delete this video as you'll cost repair guys money by saving people from screwing up their guitars! ;-)
Just saying: I don't believe it's better to use "the right strings". The right strings really depend on your playing style, so I do like the ability to flatten out the neck if your style warrants heavier strings. On my archtop, I've settled on .013s, which is probably the most common choice for that kind of instrument, but a lot of folks use .012s or even lighter and I've tried .014s myself. These all benefit from different truss-rod settings, and there is no "right gauge" for the guitar, considered alone, though I question whether anything less than .012 is going to get a great sound out of a big acoustic archtop. Also, different string alloys have different densities and therefore different tensions when tuned to the same frequency even with the same string gauge. So if you go from steel to Monel (which is denser), you will have lower tension which could necessitate a different truss-rod adjustment. Monel is about 10% denser than steel, and so (for the unwound strings), the tension when tuned up will be 10% less for strings of the same gauge. The lowered tension is why a lot of people like Monel, but making the change to to Monel might require truss-rod loosening to remove overbow, if you had the neck adjusted nearly flat for steel.
Absolutely correct. There are no set rules for relief, string height or any other aspect of a setup. There are no set rules, only guide lines. The most important aspect is how the owner plays. Carlos Santana had his neck set with zero relief. As to adjusting the truss rod to correct action problems the only time this is required is, when the instrument was setup well and the action changes with no wear at saddle or the nut. This means that the neck has either changed it's shape or come loose.
I've just discovered your chanell today and I can say, I get what you're tryin to say on neck relief. There is so much terrible data out there today on topics like this and alot of confusion is from things getting lost in translation from one generation to the next and so on...enjoy your "old school" ways and terminology in how you explain your point because it reminds me of my late father's way of pounding that common sense into my young and dumb self back in the day...good stuff! and never apologize for your passion!
Relief is much more important on a solid body electric for a rock and roll guy... tapping is easier with a bit more relief. I like my acoustics almost flat. Your explanation of all this is excellent.
Best trick I know to adjust the neck is very, very simple, and it does not take an eagle eye (fortunately for me), Just place a ruler above the neck in contact with the frets and then slip a sheet of thin paper between the ruler and frets. When the sheet of paper cannot go between the ruler and the fret your neck is straight. Then adjust action and relief to your liking. Simple and effective, learned this by bed leveling my 3d printer :-).
100 percent agree. I have a hand made flaminco guitar with a plat neck, it plays amazing, low action, fast. I have a thin body cut away that is hand made in Spain, it has a little relief in the neck, it also has a truss rod. I would level it out but the guitar plays amazing. I think the two get to the same situation by different means. the actions are very low, but the one with the relief gains height in as you go down the fret board. we are talking about thousandths, like you were explaining. there is just too much concern over relief et al. flayability is the final judge. love your channel, keep it up.
Man, I'm completely on your side here. I see people just obsess over neck relief and it drives me nuts. I've always tried to make them dead level and never had any issues from a straight neck.
Every guitar is different, but yes - you’re spot on Jerry. Sometimes I’ve had guitars where my neck relief is only .006 - on others I’ve had .010, .009, it all depends.
Hi Jerry, I like your videos and that your bright, no-nonsense lighting makes your work area and videos very clear. My comment is about your text overlay that you add sometimes. Your white walls, white hair and occasional shirts with white lettering makes the overlay hard to read even with an outline and a drop shadow. I'd suggest that you consider yellow overlays. Not yellow like a post-it note but yellow like an egg yolk. My second comment would be to look at the lens and not the flippy screen on your camera when you are addressing your audience. I know you can't follow every suggestion given to you on your videos. I think these two simple things don't require spending any money, or any additional time and would go a long way to improving the information exchange in your videos. Thank you. I also like when you sing and play when you've finished repairing an instrument. It's a nice, personal touch to your work.
Your eyalling of the frets is legit - woodworkers do this all the time (probably with less precision though) using 'winding sticks'. on a fret board, the frets are the winding sticks.
Thank you Jerry I've always been at pains to achieve 10 thou relief on dozens maybe hundreds of instruments of mine and friends and now I see from what you've explained that straight is ok or there abouts ..i always set the neck dead straight without strings and do any fret levelling or whatever's needed then under string tension its never far of 10 or 12 thou anyway the way the thing was designed I suppose ..i certainly will spend less time trying to get it exact now ..thanks again 👍🏻☮❤
I use notched straight edges for bass and guitar and feeler gauges. 10 to 12 thou as you said is not much but if all else is good then no worries. Your video makes sense to me. ✌️😎
I've been watching Cranmer's videos the past few days. The electric solid body he made is beautiful. I agree with your philosophy on neck relief. I do have a couple solid body electrics that require a little under bow, but most of my guitar necks are as close to flat as I can get them.
agreed 100% Steve Vai is one of the best guitarist on the planet and he likes a straight neck, no relief! and as you said .010 is more than most think even tho it's very little bit.
I totally agree with having a straight/flat neck. I know some repair people who wouldn't give me a flat neck. They insisted on leaving neck relief, enough that was visible. They even insisted too much now on my electric guitars!!! Anyhow I appreciate your passion and opinion. Just watched this video and the Martin low action setup before....consider me subscribed. Best regards from Montreal Canada. -Glenn
"They think they're only way to do it and that they're the best" ... also applies to a few particular guitar teachers/tutors on TH-cam who bedevil their uploads with claims that their methods/system/lessons are the best and to please subscribe yada yada yada. There's no such person or teaching system that's 'the best', it all down to what suits each individual and --- oh yes --- how much they practice. I found your trussrod distinctions between "adjust" and "affect" very interesting. It took me many years before In understood that difference. Very clearly explained. Many years ago I went to a gig in a pub and spotted the young guitarist in the gloom at the side of the stage fiddling with his guitar before the group went onstage and whilst his mates were setting up. I couldn't figure out what he was doing and then I realised that he was adjusting the trussrod. He seemed to be struggling and then there was a crack and a loud cry of "****it". I can only guess that he was tightening it and went too far. I've often wondered what state his guitar must have been in for him to wait until that late moment before being that radical.
your way of getting the neck straight is amazing ,I dont trust my eyes so use a notched straight edge to get it there usually ill eye sight it and your right its usually not off by much ,now back bow is a different story then your action will change as you know
Jerry, A Very Good Video. I totally agree with you on all your points about the neck and truss rods. That's the way I've done it since the mid 60's working in my dad's shop and then later in my own. We may not do everything the same but I do like your videos. You're right on about Crammer's work. Another TH-cam site to check out is (enter twoodfrd in the search box.) He is from Canada and he uses great sensibility for everything he does and carries out the artistically. Well worth looking at. I sure hope that Dups Contracture can be held at bay. Ralph also a x-phone guy in Appleton, WI
Thanks Jerry. I had not considered the significance of neck relief when playing up the neck. I bet a lot of people think of it in terms of its effects in the first position chords and picking. I’m tracking on the rest of your ideas but honestly, I prefer to measure stuff. If your years of experience has taught you how to see .010 looking down a neck that’s a blessing for ya. I don’t trust MY eye that much 🙂. I think maybe a white board or a paper and pencil might have helped explain a little more clearly for some people.
When I'm explaining neck relief and truss rods, I always use a fiddle bow to demonstrate how the truss rod works and how the tension of the rod (the hair on the bow) affects the shape of the neck (the wood rod of the bow). It is crystal clear to anyone that sees this.
Oh, I believe you. The guy I was briefly apprenticed to can run his wood through his thickness sander and could tell you exactly when it was the thickness he was shooting for. He's pulled calipers out to prove it too. He can also gauge the thickness of a mandolin or fiddle by eye as well. Personally, I can't see it, including under bow. Yeah, nasty eye infection as a child and watching someone weld without a helmet on has come back to haunt me.
My dad has an amazing eye for figuring area and distance. Hes been doing it since he sad 10 working withmy gramps surveying for him. And I've got a great eye for angles and level/ perpendicular. So i definetly believe people can aquire neat skills like that.
Hi Jerry, thanks for the shout out, I'll be sure to return the favour! You're definitely correct that luthiers should support each other! With regards to the relief, have you ever experimented with sanding fall away after the 14th fret during levelling? This eliminates the problem of the frets ramping up towards the end of the fingerboard. Would be interested to hear your thoughts!
You are, Absolutely, correct. Relief is one thing, bow is completely different. And he who tries to correct his string action, by adjusting the truss rod, knows absolutely Nothing. BTDT. 8^(
I agree completely, if a guitar was made to have that much relief the end of the fret board wouldnt be made to trail off at the end, if it was why would you want a hump in the fret board.
Hi Jerry, i saw the video on the build of the archtop by Cranmer last week before you told us. Thank you for support him. The build is very perfect i think. It has become a very beautiful instrument. There is another luthier i would advise to you, "twoodfrd". And yes, many people think that it is possible to manipulate the action of their instruments with the trussrod. I think, only instrument-builders know it exactly ;-) Please excuse my english.....
I have to agree with you about “underbow” and “relief”. I was taught to put the guitar in tune, capo at the first fret, depress the 1st string at the 15th fret and measure the distance from the top of the 8th fret to the bottom of the first string with a feeler gauge. A rule of thumb at the school I attended was that measurement was .012”. I use this method on every guitar I set up in my shop and have never had a complaint from a customer. You’re also absolutely correct about not being able to adjust the action by the truss rod. I enjoy you videos and learn something or re-affirm what I’m doing in my shop each time I watch one. Thank you taking the time to share your abilities.
You reason before doing; thus, your uncommon common sense. You do what you do, not simply with great skill, but with great conviction for doing things right; thus, your passion. That uncommon common sense, skill, and passion are probably why you have 27,000 subscribers.
For what it’s worth, classical guitars have no neck relief and a dead flat fingerboard. Although they’re built with a slightly lower fretboard on the bass side towards the heel. No truss rod either, just ebony reinforcements. Some have carbon reinforcements nowadays. But they have much lower string tension too. And you’re absolutely right, THERE IS ROOM FOR EVERYONE.
Funny you mention the machine community. I watch those guys too and you are right Jim Not a guitar guy Not a machine guy:-0). Dad was. I have his south bend. Reminds me of deck height arguments for saxes.
I agree with the whole "Underbow" term. I adjust my own necks from winter to summer and back etc, on guitars that need it. I can tell immediately is there is "Underbow" and not just relief just by how they play. My HD-28 is two different guitars when the neck is off just a little bit.
Jerry, I was raised on a ranch/farm and understand how your "eye" was developed and only a fool would bet against you! I can't disagree with any of what you had to say, especially about the the truss rod issue! I have to "tweak" the truss rod on a couple of my guitars maybe twice a year and I mean "tweak"! 8th of a turn will usually be plenty to dial the neck back in. Good video and I hope folks "get it"....
We are kindred spirits…passion = “ALL IN” “DEDICATED””LOVE WHAT YOUR DOING” thanks for sharing your passion!
I`ve taught this for years,but was laughed at time and time again...Thanks for being on my side..
The way you look down the neck to determine what to do to the instrument is exactly the way I've always done it. It does work.
Hi Jerry, Don here from Hamilton NZ on my Wife's tablet-SUSAN, just want to say I always love your videos excellent little tips I can use, I'm an old guy now ( 73yrs. soon, playing guitar since 12 but these last few years I make improvements to my guitar's, it makes 'em sound better) thanks again for the help, regards Don 😊
Hi Jerry;
I agree with you wholeheartedly about a flat fret board. I would just add flat, when the strings are tuned. A flat fret board will always give you slightly more clearance on the next lower fret as you go down the board. Thus if the first fret doesn't buzz, none will, if the frets are leveled. That's as good as it gets. I don't put truss rods in my instruments at all. So far I haven't had any problems, except on a very long scale bass with a short body and a very thin neck. It was my first bass and was a good learning tool. I plan to reinforce the neck some day rather than add a truss rod. The neck is thin enough to allow the reinforcement. Your comments on this are easier to understand than any other comments on the subject that I have heard or read. Thanks for sharing this video.
I own a violin restoration shop. I learned a lot watching you today appreciate all the info. Farrell and Farrell violin. You are so correct. There's always room to learn. Thank you
I' m 68 years old & been playing guitar & fiddle &mandolin since my early 20's & your the first guy I've ever met that feels exactly the way I do about neck relief & action adjustment ! I've always(most of the time) had to do my own repair work & adjustments on my instruments being a full time working musician, but by no means a Luthier.But I did learn enough from books etc.(time before computers!) to keep my babies & living makers playable.I want to say that I have never seen anyone on you tube or anywhere else on the internet with your patience and dedication with attention to detail in the magnificent repairs on a variety of stringed instruments as you Jerry.I have degenerative dics disease in my neck so I've had to slow down in performing.Anyway,keep up the great work my friend !
I'm an "OK" player and have no luthier aspirations, but I have to say that what you say here is exactly what I have come to believe about relief and action adjustment. I'm a city boy with no fencepost experience, but a year ago I adjusted relief to "almost 0" by eye, looking down the neck, and upon measuring relief with feeler gauges, it came out to 0.010". Also, my playing experience is that you might need more relief (or even higher action) if you have lighter strings; your point about wider string vibration with light strings is on the mark. I've mostly been playing an archtop the past year (1947 L7), and I love that I can adjust the action, bass and treble, at the saddle via the bridge adjustment screws. As you point out, truss-rod and action adjustment affect each other, and I have found myself iterating to get it all right, especially when I experiment with string gauges. I don't agree that they should eliminate adjustable truss rods, though, because when I put on heavier strings (I tried .014's for a while), they tend to bend the neck as well as change the overall neck angle, and tightening up the truss rod can then remove what you call the underbow created by the heavy string tension. I also agree with you that the advantage of relief is mainly for people who play near the nut; for example, bluegrass rhythm players who hit the strings really hard. But if you play up the neck, relief - or at least, too much of it - can hurt you. It's good to get validation of what I've come to believe from someone with greater authority, so thank you for this and your other informative videos.
Aloha Jerry, I had to smile about the fence posts. When I was young my dad and grandfather took great pride on the straightness of their fence lines, the straightness of their plow furrows, and the straightness of their planted rows. Going to town on Saturday nights was always passed looking at others row straightness and the amount of weeds in the fence row and crops. Back in the days when simple pride in your work went a long way.
I believe you. I had the same job with my dad fencing on the farm. You develop a pretty good eyeball!
I use the truss rod to straighten the neck as flat as possible for a setup.
When I string the guitar and tune to pitch it gives me the relief needed.
This has always worked for me. In other words YOU ARE RIGHT plain and simple.
I’ve seen guitars that folks try to adjust the action with the truss rod it’s usually
a nightmare trying to loosen the over tightened truss rod with a chance of breaking the rod.
Guitars should come with a warning about tightening the truss rod.
Where I disagree with you is I believe an adjustable truss rod is a God send for doing a setup.
It’s hard to believe Martin guitar waited until around the 1980’s to install adjustable truss rods.
I’ve noticed you are passionate when you explain things that’s a good thing,
please don’t ever don’t change.
Yup, sometimes string tension is all you need
No need to apologize sir. It's always good to clarify things for those who don't entirely understand. I love a quote I once read that goes something like - correct a wise man and he will thank you. Correct a fool and he will hate on you.
A great video. We have 2 Martin 0018s in the family. A 1966 and a 1948 and neither of them have truss rods. I never look at the "relief" or "under bow" on them. I set the action on the 1948 by lowering the saddle a bit, but that is all. Both play as well as they did when they came from the factory (at least the '66 does and I was only a year old when the '48 was built) so "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"! Thanks again Jerry.
I'm supporting you on this Jerry. I've been setting up instruments for many years. A lot of the older instruments don't even have truss rods, they aren't necessary. They are just a little insurance to give the guitar neck a little help if it starts to bow. I don't even subscribe to the idea that string tension will EVER make a neck bow. The lignon in the wood doesn't take a new shape because of strain. If it did all the big old trees would be bent to the ground. Abuse is what usually bends a neck, leaving it in a car or trunk in the sun, storing it too near a heater or letting the wood get too moist. Then the strings might have some influence on the wood but the truss rod is not for action adjustment, it's for relief CORRECTION only. A little positive relief is okay, some like it but straight dead flat will work, too. The action is a different adjustment altogether! Don't use the truss rod to adjust action- even if it does this, it's doing it by bending the neck which is not a variable.. it should be right and stay right. Set up the guitar's adjustments in the right order. Setting up a banjo is a real lesson since everything is a variable including head tension which affects bridge height, too but you don't set head tension for bridge height, you set it for tone first and leave it alone.
I know exactly what you mean about the fencepost thing. As a teenager I would swear that my line was strait, only for the posts to go off the perpendicular on tensioning the wire. Now I'm an "old git" I can line them up perfect every time, well almost every time! Practice don't always make perfect, but it sure helps. Blessings on your house and tribe Jerry.
And they say that you just put old people out to pasture. Jerry, your stuff is just getting better with age. Well, that's just another old guy's opinion! THANKS SO MUCH AGAIN!
I trust your years of experience, good advice to us amateurs is always welcome
I guess the best comment I can write down is : I would send you any of my guitars for repair in case it was needed. In my book you are among the best there.
Nice to see that I’m not alone in getting the most out of the truss rod. It will help make any guitar sound better with the combination of good nut and saddle installations.
Thank you, Jerry! You have reinforced suspicions that I have had about the truss rod issue. I was a poor boy with no power tools when I made my two guitars. The first I put a quarter inch steel bar in my hand chiseled neck channel to try to keep it straight, the second I used the old Martin method with a 3/8" metal (bought from Stew Mac I believe) tube. Despite my less than professional workmanship, both necks are straight, and play fine all the way up. I love your common sense approach! You do beautiful work.
The more I become experienced, the less measuring stuff I use. But I was one of them at the beginning, making necks with 'underbow' in the belief that this was ok. And never was satisfied about it. Now I make them dead flat and let the strings do the work for me. Great video!
The thing about Jerry is..................1) His common sense approach is just downright solid. 2) Before asking a question, do a search of his RSW TH-cam site. Odds are that he has already covered the topic. 3) If you follow his lead on setup (from grinding bone for nuts and saddles to truss rod/relief issues) you can save yourself a lot of grief - and maybe save your guitar!
Guitar player 40+ years, set them up almost every way possible. The more experienced I became, the more I can say that on the neck bow / relief topic, Jerry is spot-on correct.
I also got a good "eyeball" test when checking out a guitar. Then I take a straight edge steel ruler and get that neck as straight as possible. Then back it off if there is stings a buzzing. Learned this with years of frame carpentry experience..... A little worried bout messing with nut and saddle, I leave that to you guys....also applies to any high frets. Sometimes you can just avoid that part of the fretboard, like on the 1st fret high f note. I can play around that one. Maybe the high c, but not that g#..... You are spot on and I concur with your rant. I have the same rant.... Bigbox music stores will hang a guitar on the wall with an obvious bow. They always say, some players want it that way... I call BS! Keep up your goid work!.....TKS.
good work....
As always an awesome video. Yes, you can line up the frets and bridge. All the older guys use to do that. Back in the day, there was not a lot of tools and knowledge around. To do this work. TH-cam has not been around all that long. So I use to follow all the old-timers in my area to get knowledge and tricks. Thanks for sharing the video.
I thank you so much for this video. I have a number of guitars, electric and acoustic, and I play them all. I guess I have become a collector in my old age. But I am also living on a tight budget, so I tend to buy guitars that are less than $400. I have bought a couple of these less expensive guitars. In almost every way, they are perfect for me, but not right out of the box. So, I have had to learn how to set up my own guitars. All of them were less than what I would call perfect right out of the box. My biggest complaint has been action and intonation. Well, you were talking about underbow and how, when you press down on the string where it is at its highest distance from the fretboard, and how it can make the string hit the higher frets, I have learned that, even if you can make it clear the hump where the neck joins the body, you are stretching the string far enough that you actually pull it sharp. There goes your intonation. The same thing is true if you have too much clearance between the first fret, that is, the nut is not cut deep enough. You can have the intonation set at the twelfth fret, but try to play a low F, the 6th string at the first fret. If there is too much clearance, you end up playing a note that is closer to an F# than to an F.
After all this, I just want to say: Jerry, thanks to you and what I have learned about setting up a guitar from you, all my guitars play clearly, easily, and every note is in tune.
@4:19 You've developed the "Micrometer Eye"; the result of years of careful conditioned attenuation. I have it too, mostly from drafting, construction and machine work. I can tell out of level, out of square, out of parallel, out of plumb, out of true down to a 1/16 in or about a millimeter.
But the older I get, the need for more light and magnification has increased exponentially, especially the small stuff.
I've also developed "Torque Elbow" (tighten it until the elbow clicks, back off a quarter, and down 2 Aleve.) along with "Stoichiometric Sinus" "Multimeterfinger" and "Computer Control Diagnostic Ear"
I have been watching the RSW videos for quite a while now; since before I sent Mr. Rosa my back-of-the-closet koa acoustic to get straightened out, and it never ceases to amaze me that every time I tune it, I keep on learning something new! Pretty exciting :D Thank you!
I set mine flat,and action low.I have learned to play with a soft touch after 50 years of playing.p.s., thanks to you and Randy S. for all the knowledge you have shared.
Hallelujah! Thank you!!! Finally, someone talking common sense about neck relief. Can't even count how many times I've experienced someone trying to eliminate fret buzz by adding monstrous relief. Not only does that cause MORE fret buzz higher up, but also destroys intonation and playability in the middle of the neck.
I have both my shred (low action) and my blues guitars (high action) set up with almost no relief. I have NO buzz, even when doing 2 whole-step bends on Strats w/ vintage 7 1/2" radius fretboards.
Bless you Jerry!
I agree with you on this. I shoot for .010 relief on my guitars, and I bought tools as needed. I don’t have to deal too much with humidity/temperature problems where I live, and I haven’t touched a truss rod in so long that I forgot where I put my tools for that. Changing string gauge sure, humidity sure, action adjustment not. I’ve been playing for close to 60 years, so we had to learn these things by actually finding and talking to people. Imagine that. 🤠
Great video, everything is understood, Sir! A new moment to me was the fact that if you have under bow and press a string at the 8`th fret, you move the string to a "much" lover distance over the higher frets and can introduce buzzing.
Everyone who works at Guitar Center should watch this!!!
Another great vid. All guitars leave my shop with a dead flat, straight neck - and I mean straight edge straight! My methods differ only slightly from yours. I apprenticed under one of the worlds great builders, Sergei de Jonge. He’s one of the very few guitar builders who has an amazing reputation in both the steel string and nylon worlds. He taught me to build guitars with only 6 power tools, everything else was hand tools. He also taught me to sight a neck. If you have the nack, you have it - and it will improve as you gain experience. I feel it’s the major key to my success as a repair/restore luthier - my ability to sight a neck. - I just could do it right out of the gate, and I now have great faith and trust in my ability to make an accurate initial “read” for setups.
Apparently, four so-called repairpersons just got through giving lengthy explanations to clients, about how crucial or mandatory or something it is to have a good, visible amount of relief on the fretboard, then watched this spot-on video.
Great video. I'll do you one better though, I can now feel whether a neck is bowed or flat or otherwise. You can just feel it especially if it's under bowed. It's a spongey feeling in the strings that, I can dial out by just feeling it. What I see an awful lot which is irritating, is when a nut has been filed with the neck under bowed. You straighten out the neck and either end up replacing the nut which is now too low, or shimming it, which is never my preferred method. Also, the thing with sighting a neck that nobody explains, is simply to follow the shadow of the strings. Once you work that out its really easy to see high frets and the curve in the neck. Also really easy to see if a neck is twisted by sighting it. Seen HEAPS of those bent necks, always twisted toward the treble side. Edit: I also run my own guitars with the neck totally straight and a touch higher action than factory recommends. I find they play way nicer and don't choke anywhere that way while bending notes.
You just made the best video I could’ve stumbled upon. I’m loooking down and can see it with your eyes.
Thanks Jerry. As we discussed before, I too was under the impression you could adjust the action or the angle of the neck with the truss rod. I think you laid it out very well and I understand it a lot better now. Thanks for your words of wisdom. In my case the only way to fix my issue is with a neck reset, and I think based upon how much I play, it wouldn't be cost effective.
You are one of the last persons to justify your approaches. What you do is always brilliant and comes from a long experience. And obviously, it works perfectly all the time. So don't let people try to tell you something different. Maybe, ignoring them is the best way to go. Before TH-cam etc. there were also no people that came to your shop to critisise you. ;)
Thanks for being who you are! Best wishes! :)
One of the things an old timer told me is that a LITTLE neck relief (under full string tension) is a good way of not over tighting a truss rod. Sometimes a hair pass perfectly straight equals a damaged truss rod. Joe Walsh does like more neck relief than I like. But he’s Joe Walsh! So it’s good. Lol. You can hear the sting tap on one or two of my frets in the center (with extra light strings under full tension) on my electric. That tap is with a low string pushed down at the first and the 14th fret to check neck relief ( after I check to make sure the neck is straight and the frets are level).. But I can’t see between the string and fret. And the truss rod is just snug at that point. That’s the way I like it.. I bought a used Gibson Midtown you could drive a truck under ( with a string pushed down at the first and 14th fret). Ok, a little exaggeration there. But it played fine. I honestly didn’t know the neck was bowed until I checked it. When I straightened up the neck, it buzzed at the upper frets because the strings were too low at the nut now. Somebody did that set up on purpose because that’s the way they liked it. To me that’s neck bow. But it was still easily corrected by the truss rod. No permanent damage. Just need a new nut to suit my set up. Lol. I’m not OCD. Honest. Lol.
Thanks Jerry. That was a good lesson. Looking forward to the next one!
Glad you discussed neck relief and truss rod affects. For the last two guitars I have built there are no truss rods, just two carbon fiber rods in each. When I attached the fretboards there was a very slight overbow (intentional) which was corrected when the guitars were strung up, resulting in ramrod-straight necks. I used carbon fiber for two reasons; one is a test to see if the neck will bow, and the second is that there is no cavity in the neck for a truss rod and no metal either. Results: after 6 months of medium gauge strings at concert pitch there has been no measureable (+- .005") change in neck alignment. These two guitars have better sustain that others I have built and I attribute that to "strength down the middle" as espoused by people I trust as true experts. These straight necks are very playable with either light or medium gauge strings and 2.0 mm. action at the 12th. I am monitoring these necks quite closely; so far so good. I am working towards the day when truss rods are no longer necessary, and neck angle is user-adjusted easily and without a re-set.
I've been having a little trouble with an over lively mahogany ( i know,lively?) guitar,and tried a whole bunch of stuff to un stiffen it and make it a little more friendly,i took the relief out of the neck and BINGO.thanks man.
Good morning Jerry very informative session and like you said I'd rather have mine flat than bowed you and the family have a great weekend my friend take care buddy
Well Jerry, I agree with you on about 98% of your philosophy of neck relief and action the only thing I have is truss rods are necessary but you are right on most people don't know how to use them.
"Adjust your truss rod as you would fry a sardine. Very lightly."
Very enlightening . I've wondered about the fidget nut under the little plastic cover . Just thought it was their for itchy handed teens to tinker with .
I agree with every word you say, Jerry. I have several guitars and have never messed with truss rods, not because I'm scared to, but because I've never needed to. I do have 2 classical guitars, in fact one of them is my daily play. I've seen and played a LOT of classical guitars, and never seen one with a truss rod! Yeah I know, there's more pressure on a steel string, but there is still pressure on a classical too, but no builders seem to think a truss rod is necessary!
Classical guitars generally have thicker necks and low tension strings. However quite a few classical guitars are now being built with truss rods because they have introduced high tension strings. Also some of the hybrid Classical's have truss rods as the necks are thinner. My classical has a truss rod and I will put one in the classical I plan to build. Truss rods are cheap and I see it as insurance.
Thanks so much, there are so many daft opinions out there, you are a luthier and I totally trust your judgement. Many thanks again Hugh
Your courageous. I've set my own guitars up for ever, I knew what 10,000 of and inch meant long ago, and decided that for simplicity in working on my herd of guitars, straight was fine. Going for straight necks means that one's goals (straightness) is easy to define and achieve because most tools (especially sanding and measuring tools) are straight.
But even when I show a guitar tech how easy my guitars are to play, he/she will be certain that that 10 or whatever thousandths of an inch of relief is sacred. The difference between dead straight (with stings tuned to pitch) and 10,000's of an inch relief is, as you say, ridiculously small, yet people, who can't afford a tech and are intimidated from leveling their own frets and are being put off from fixing very nasty necks on their guitars because they don't know how to get the"relief" and the slight added complexity of relieving a neck as you level frets is usually the most common "variable" that stops them from even trying to get their guitar to play well. It's way better if the beginning guitarist just gets his action corrected with a straight neck, if only to eliminate one more variable when learning.
The goal is to have a playable guitar, and that means that more people will decide to learn to level their own frets or work their day jobs to afford a guitar techs labor. I'm not saying a straight neck is "correct". I'm saying it's easier to achieve, and easier for the beginner to understand and do, and that laser straight finished frets frets are nearly indistinguishable (and perfectly wonderful to play) from a relieved neck (frets).
You mentioned the creators you watch. I looked at your subscribed list and was blown away. Great minds as they say. You are subscribed to 3/4 of the same channels that I sub to. I guess old telephone men have a lot of the same interest.
Great tip on the flush cutters, but a word of warning... the jaws will dent and ding on hard metals. My flush cutters will dent if cutting steel guitar strings, so I use them only for pulling, and nipping non stainless frets and cutting nylon or bronze strings.
Flatten out the neck, dress and level frets... String up and go. It always works out on a healthy, well made guitar, with moderate gauge strings for both electrics and acoustics, heavier strings might cause excessive relief if your guitar's not handling the tension well and then sure, with care and in small increments adjust the relief (but better to use the right strings). Regarding assessment of relief and fretwork: I do own a fret rocker too but rarely need it. Sighting down the neck like it's a railway line also works for me to gauge whether choking will occur anywhere or if the setup is otherwise rubbish. So basically I agree with the whole video. regarding terminology: I call 'over bow' 'back bow' and I call 'under bow' 'excessive relief'. I see the truss rod purely as a device for stablising the neck and providing a means to balance the tension in the neck against string pull. I live in the UK and my truss rod on my guitars never needs adjustment. Set it and forget it. I think overwhelmingly people who set instruments up well will fully agree with you. Now you must delete this video as you'll cost repair guys money by saving people from screwing up their guitars! ;-)
Just saying: I don't believe it's better to use "the right strings". The right strings really depend on your playing style, so I do like the ability to flatten out the neck if your style warrants heavier strings. On my archtop, I've settled on .013s, which is probably the most common choice for that kind of instrument, but a lot of folks use .012s or even lighter and I've tried .014s myself. These all benefit from different truss-rod settings, and there is no "right gauge" for the guitar, considered alone, though I question whether anything less than .012 is going to get a great sound out of a big acoustic archtop. Also, different string alloys have different densities and therefore different tensions when tuned to the same frequency even with the same string gauge. So if you go from steel to Monel (which is denser), you will have lower tension which could necessitate a different truss-rod adjustment. Monel is about 10% denser than steel, and so (for the unwound strings), the tension when tuned up will be 10% less for strings of the same gauge. The lowered tension is why a lot of people like Monel, but making the change to to Monel might require truss-rod loosening to remove overbow, if you had the neck adjusted nearly flat for steel.
Absolutely correct. There are no set rules for relief, string height or any other aspect of a setup. There are no set rules, only guide lines. The most important aspect is how the owner plays. Carlos Santana had his neck set with zero relief. As to adjusting the truss rod to correct action problems the only time this is required is, when the instrument was setup well and the action changes with no wear at saddle or the nut. This means that the neck has either changed it's shape or come loose.
I've just discovered your chanell today and I can say, I get what you're tryin to say on neck relief. There is so much terrible data out there today on topics like this and alot of confusion is from things getting lost in translation from one generation to the next and so on...enjoy your "old school" ways and terminology in how you explain your point because it reminds me of my late father's way of pounding that common sense into my young and dumb self back in the day...good stuff! and never apologize for your passion!
Relief is much more important on a solid body electric for a rock and roll guy... tapping is easier with a bit more relief. I like my acoustics almost flat. Your explanation of all this is excellent.
I've always wondered about neck relief. What you said makes perfect sense! Btw...great tip on grinding the cutters! I'll give it a try!👍😎🎸🎶
Best trick I know to adjust the neck is very, very simple, and it does not take an eagle eye (fortunately for me), Just place a ruler above the neck in contact with the frets and then slip a sheet of thin paper between the ruler and frets. When the sheet of paper cannot go between the ruler and the fret your neck is straight. Then adjust action and relief to your liking.
Simple and effective, learned this by bed leveling my 3d printer :-).
100 percent agree. I have a hand made flaminco guitar with a plat neck, it plays amazing, low action, fast. I have a thin body cut away that is hand made in Spain, it has a little relief in the neck, it also has a truss rod. I would level it out but the guitar plays amazing. I think the two get to the same situation by different means. the actions are very low, but the one with the relief gains height in as you go down the fret board. we are talking about thousandths, like you were explaining. there is just too much concern over relief et al. flayability is the final judge. love your channel, keep it up.
Man, I'm completely on your side here. I see people just obsess over neck relief and it drives me nuts. I've always tried to make them dead level and never had any issues from a straight neck.
Every guitar is different, but yes - you’re spot on Jerry. Sometimes I’ve had guitars where my neck relief is only .006 - on others I’ve had .010, .009, it all depends.
Hi Jerry, I like your videos and that your bright, no-nonsense lighting makes your work area and videos very clear. My comment is about your text overlay that you add sometimes. Your white walls, white hair and occasional shirts with white lettering makes the overlay hard to read even with an outline and a drop shadow. I'd suggest that you consider yellow overlays. Not yellow like a post-it note but yellow like an egg yolk. My second comment would be to look at the lens and not the flippy screen on your camera when you are addressing your audience. I know you can't follow every suggestion given to you on your videos. I think these two simple things don't require spending any money, or any additional time and would go a long way to improving the information exchange in your videos. Thank you. I also like when you sing and play when you've finished repairing an instrument. It's a nice, personal touch to your work.
Your entry was very well said Jerry.
Thanks for clearing this all up, Jerry
Your eyalling of the frets is legit - woodworkers do this all the time (probably with less precision though) using 'winding sticks'. on a fret board, the frets are the winding sticks.
You are right, I make sure my neck is straight put strings on and most time I get neck release I need it varies with gauge
Thank you Jerry I've always been at pains to achieve 10 thou relief on dozens maybe hundreds of instruments of mine and friends and now I see from what you've explained that straight is ok or there abouts ..i always set the neck dead straight without strings and do any fret levelling or whatever's needed then under string tension its never far of 10 or 12 thou anyway the way the thing was designed I suppose ..i certainly will spend less time trying to get it exact now ..thanks again 👍🏻☮❤
I use notched straight edges for bass and guitar and feeler gauges. 10 to 12 thou as you said is not much but if all else is good then no worries. Your video makes sense to me. ✌️😎
I've been watching Cranmer's videos the past few days. The electric solid body he made is beautiful. I agree with your philosophy on neck relief. I do have a couple solid body electrics that require a little under bow, but most of my guitar necks are as close to flat as I can get them.
agreed 100% Steve Vai is one of the best guitarist on the planet and he likes a straight neck, no relief! and as you said .010 is more than most think even tho it's very little bit.
Hi Randy , hope you're keeping well . Jeff Beck likes zero relief too , and he's not too shabby !
I totally agree with having a straight/flat neck. I know some repair people who wouldn't give me a flat neck. They insisted on leaving neck relief, enough that was visible. They even insisted too much now on my electric guitars!!! Anyhow I appreciate your passion and opinion. Just watched this video and the Martin low action setup before....consider me subscribed. Best regards from Montreal Canada. -Glenn
Great video. I learn every time I watch your videos. Thank you
Checked out the video you recommended, reading the comments it gave me an idea for a new t shirt slogan: "Jerry sent me"
Always glad to crush a troll here. Thumbs up. Thanks for the fine education.
"They think they're only way to do it and that they're the best" ... also applies to a few particular guitar teachers/tutors on TH-cam who bedevil their uploads with claims that their methods/system/lessons are the best and to please subscribe yada yada yada. There's no such person or teaching system that's 'the best', it all down to what suits each individual and --- oh yes --- how much they practice.
I found your trussrod distinctions between "adjust" and "affect" very interesting. It took me many years before In understood that difference. Very clearly explained.
Many years ago I went to a gig in a pub and spotted the young guitarist in the gloom at the side of the stage fiddling with his guitar before the group went onstage and whilst his mates were setting up. I couldn't figure out what he was doing and then I realised that he was adjusting the trussrod. He seemed to be struggling and then there was a crack and a loud cry of "****it". I can only guess that he was tightening it and went too far. I've often wondered what state his guitar must have been in for him to wait until that late moment before being that radical.
Nice tip on the nippers. Saved me replacing a set!
your way of getting the neck straight is amazing ,I dont trust my eyes so use a notched straight edge to get it there usually ill eye sight it and your right its usually not off by much ,now back bow is a different story then your action will change as you know
A notched straight edge is not the best for setting relief, you want a straight edge resting on the frets not on the fretboard
I checked out the recommendation of the video. Thanks so much.
What a great video Jerry, the best I have heard on this much misunderstood and important subject.
Jerry, A Very Good Video. I totally agree with you on all your points about the neck and truss rods. That's the way I've done it since the mid 60's working in my dad's shop and then later in my own. We may not do everything the same but I do like your videos. You're right on about Crammer's work. Another TH-cam site to check out is (enter twoodfrd in the search box.) He is from Canada and he uses great sensibility for everything he does and carries out the artistically. Well worth looking at. I sure hope that Dups Contracture can be held at bay. Ralph also a x-phone guy in Appleton, WI
Thanks Jerry. I sure have learned a lot from you.
Thank you so much for this info. Makes sense. Now I am going to adjust my guitar neck as flat as possible. Cheers.
Thanks Jerry. I had not considered the significance of neck relief when playing up the neck. I bet a lot of people think of it in terms of its effects in the first position chords and picking. I’m tracking on the rest of your ideas but honestly, I prefer to measure stuff. If your years of experience has taught you how to see .010 looking down a neck that’s a blessing for ya. I don’t trust MY eye that much 🙂. I think maybe a white board or a paper and pencil might have helped explain a little more clearly for some people.
When I'm explaining neck relief and truss rods, I always use a fiddle bow to demonstrate how the truss rod works and how the tension of the rod (the hair on the bow) affects the shape of the neck (the wood rod of the bow). It is crystal clear to anyone that sees this.
Oh, I believe you. The guy I was briefly apprenticed to can run his wood through his thickness sander and could tell you exactly when it was the thickness he was shooting for. He's pulled calipers out to prove it too. He can also gauge the thickness of a mandolin or fiddle by eye as well.
Personally, I can't see it, including under bow. Yeah, nasty eye infection as a child and watching someone weld without a helmet on has come back to haunt me.
My dad has an amazing eye for figuring area and distance. Hes been doing it since he sad 10 working withmy gramps surveying for him.
And I've got a great eye for angles and level/ perpendicular.
So i definetly believe people can aquire neat skills like that.
Hi Jerry, thanks for the shout out, I'll be sure to return the favour! You're definitely correct that luthiers should support each other! With regards to the relief, have you ever experimented with sanding fall away after the 14th fret during levelling? This eliminates the problem of the frets ramping up towards the end of the fingerboard. Would be interested to hear your thoughts!
Yes I have done that. If the neck is at the proper angle, there a natural Fall Away regardless.
You are, Absolutely, correct. Relief is one thing, bow is completely different. And he who tries to
correct his string action, by adjusting the truss rod, knows absolutely Nothing. BTDT. 8^(
If it plays good I don’t mess with it!!! Great video Jerry👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼😊
I agree completely, if a guitar was made to have that much relief the end of the fret board wouldnt be made to trail off at the end, if it was why would you want a hump in the fret board.
Hi Jerry, i saw the video on the build of the archtop by Cranmer last week before you told us. Thank you for support him. The build is very perfect i think. It has become a very beautiful instrument. There is another luthier i would advise to you, "twoodfrd". And yes, many people think that it is possible to manipulate the action of their instruments with the trussrod. I think, only instrument-builders know it exactly ;-) Please excuse my english.....
I'm relieved to get that straightened out!
I have to agree with you about “underbow” and “relief”. I was taught to put the guitar in tune, capo at the first fret, depress the 1st string at the 15th fret and measure the distance from the top of the 8th fret to the bottom of the first string with a feeler gauge. A rule of thumb at the school I attended was that measurement was .012”. I use this method on every guitar I set up in my shop and have never had a complaint from a customer. You’re also absolutely correct about not being able to adjust the action by the truss rod. I enjoy you videos and learn something or re-affirm what I’m doing in my shop each time I watch one. Thank you taking the time to share your abilities.
Hi Jerry I think your spot on as far as this point is concerned.
You reason before doing; thus, your uncommon common sense. You do what you do, not simply with great skill, but with great conviction for doing things right; thus, your passion. That uncommon common sense, skill, and passion are probably why you have 27,000 subscribers.
Never doubt the craftsman's calibrated eye
For what it’s worth, classical guitars have no neck relief and a dead flat fingerboard. Although they’re built with a slightly lower fretboard on the bass side towards the heel. No truss rod either, just ebony reinforcements. Some have carbon reinforcements nowadays. But they have much lower string tension too. And you’re absolutely right, THERE IS ROOM FOR EVERYONE.
Honest as the day is long 👏 Thanks for sharing 👍
Great job brother, thanks for clarification
Funny you mention the machine community. I watch those guys too and you are right
Jim
Not a guitar guy
Not a machine guy:-0). Dad was. I have his south bend.
Reminds me of deck height arguments for saxes.
I agree with the whole "Underbow" term. I adjust my own necks from winter to summer and back etc, on guitars that need it. I can tell immediately is there is "Underbow" and not just relief just by how they play. My HD-28 is two different guitars when the neck is off just a little bit.
Jerry, I was raised on a ranch/farm and understand how your "eye" was developed and only a fool would bet against you! I can't disagree with any of what you had to say, especially about the the truss rod issue! I have to "tweak" the truss rod on a couple of my guitars maybe twice a year and I mean "tweak"! 8th of a turn will usually be plenty to dial the neck back in. Good video and I hope folks "get it"....